339: Traditionalism pt. 1: René Guénon - The Occultist

Summary

The Empire Never Ended

Episode 339: Traditionalism Pt. 1 – René Guénon: The Occultist

Recorded: September 24, 2025
Hosts: Boris Mamlëz & Rey Katula

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Overview

This episode kicks off a three-part deep dive into the intellectual and biographical history of Traditionalism, focusing first on its enigmatic founder, René Guénon. The hosts, Boris and Rey, explore Guénon's roots in Paris' early 20th-century occult scene, charting his evolution from Catholicism through Western occultism, multiple esoteric societies, and finally to Sufi Islam. They dig into the bizarre and interconnected world of Western esotericism, Theosophy, Freemasonry, and various semi-mystical pseudo-traditions that laid the groundwork for Traditionalism as a reactionary, anti-modernist, and surprisingly influential ideology in fascist and post-fascist circles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Steven Seagal and “Fake Orientals”

• Boris and Rey start with a joking riff on Steven Seagal’s appearances in Serbia, connecting it—tongue firmly in cheek—to the episode’s theme of “fake oriental persons” (04:06).
• They immediately pivot: “This is not an episode about Steven Seagal or Vučić, but here we are.” (03:11)
• The connection is drawn between Seagal’s fake embrace of Eastern traditions and Guénon’s appropriation of “oriental” esoterica.

2. What is Traditionalism? (05:11, 06:09)

• Definition: A 20th-century reactionary ideology believing in a “primordial tradition”—an eternal, perennial truth underlying all major world religions, especially in their esoteric forms (e.g., Sufism).
• Cyclical view of history—derived from Hindu cosmology (Kali Yuga, Golden Age, etc.)—with the present as the lowest, most degenerate cycle (“everything is inverted in it. All the traditional values are inverted” – 07:26).
• Traditionalism posits an elite who alone can access the esoteric heart of religion and society.
• Boris: “There is a kind of an exoteric side to a religion and an esoteric one... the esoteric one is really in touch with that primordial tradition is the idea.” (05:28)
• Notable quote: “It’s really completely, I would say, a fake whole movement.” – Rey (09:02)

3. The Paris Occult Milieu and the Birth of Guénon’s Thought (10:53–14:45)

• Guénon grows up in France, good at math, but drops out of university and becomes active in Paris' occult subculture.
• Immerses himself in the Martinist Order (a quasi-Masonic, occult society) and learns from theosophy, especially the perennialist idea via Papis (13:46), a medical doctor-turned-occultist.
• Extensive coverage of Theosophy: Founded 1875 in New York, led by Olcott and later Helena Blavatsky, obsessed with finding a primal perennial philosophy beneath all world religions. (14:45–22:43)
• Boris: “...they managed to influence, like, for example, Indian nationalism. So that’s kind of an interesting story, but we won’t get into it now.” (20:36)

4. Western Occultism, Theosophy, and the Roots of Traditionalism

• Detailed history of Blavatsky, the Theosophical Society, their scandals and practices, including faked miracles and plagiarized texts like Isis Unveiled (21:54).
• Guénon’s and Papis’s infighting with Blavatsky and within the French occult landscape, marking the beginning of perennialist and traditionalist thought as distinct from Theosophy. (25:16–28:45)

5. Guénon’s Many Affiliations and “Initiations”

• Guénon hops through occult organizations: Martinist Order, irregular Freemasonry, and the bizarre Gnostic Church—collecting initiations in fake or “irregular” Masonic and esoteric societies (29:48–39:48).
• Hilarious asides about esoteric “schools,” ritual masturbation cults, and childhood make-believe compared to these adult secret societies (29:48–33:05).

6. The Occult Network: Paranoia, Backstabbing, and Reinvention

• Frequent occult schisms and the rise and fall of pseudo-churches and orders—Guénon is consistently at the center or on the outs (32:23–43:04).
• The story includes wild characters: “the Taoist Count,” alleged Asiatic triads, and the rise of “Yellow Peril” paranoia post–Russo-Japanese War—a clear bridge from mystical ranting to racial and geopolitical reaction (40:39–44:03).
• “Opium is also a resource that should be used. He’s like. To smoke it himself. He got Guénon to smoke it as well.” (44:19)

7. Shifts in Identity: From Occultist to Sufi

• Guénon reinvents himself: from a public Catholic respected by ultraconservative Catholics (albeit for a time) to a Sufi Muslim in Cairo (45:45–60:03).
• “He became a Sufi, therefore he had to become a Muslim. So he was initiated as a Muslim...but there is no evidence that he was at this time a practicing Muslim. In fact, he was a practicing Catholic.” (60:03)
• Guénon's approach: “He would say whoever understands the unity of traditions is not convertible to anything.” (67:58)

8. The Creation of an Esoteric Elite and Traditionalism’s Social Strategy

• Guénon and associates aim to create a secret intellectual-spiritual elite to restore the Tradition in the West—either by linking with Eastern spirituality (Sufism, Vedanta) or “pure” Masonic groups (48:45–51:06).
• Strict rejection of syncretism—while actually being highly syncretic (51:04–51:35).
• Traditionalism is presented through contradictions: anti-syncretic, but obsessed with cross-traditional links; Western, but looking East for rescue; obsessed with secret knowledge and yet striving for social influence.

9. The Cairo Years: Guénon's Final Transformation (64:12–76:08)

• After a series of personal tragedies, Guénon moves to Egypt with an American widow, but she soon leaves. He stays, marries an Egyptian woman, has children, and lives in Cairo as a pious Sufi—and an eccentric European intellectual (64:46–67:57).
• Financial support via Western admirers and devotees; receives a house from a wealthy English follower.
• “He maintained an extensive correspondence. And this was like he—for hours every day he would deal with his correspondence. And through this way he was organizing the Western traditionalist elite...” (69:10)
• Increasing paranoia, magical attacks, and withdrawal in his final years. Has little real influence on local Egyptian Islam; as Rey comments, “...in some paradoxical way, it seems that he wasn’t very interested in Islam.” (72:12)

10. Legacy, Paranoia, and the Upcoming Schisms

• Dies in 1951, paranoid and somewhat isolated, leaving his study “exactly as it was” so he could see his family after death (75:05).
• Sets up the backdrop for conflicts within the traditionalist movement—future episodes to explore the power struggles between Guénon’s main followers: Frithjof Schuon and Julius Evola.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Traditionalism’s view of history:
  “Everything is inverted in it. All the traditional values are inverted...eventually a new golden age will start where...proper hierarchies will be resurrected again. Which for those people meant something like a caste system.”
  — Co-host (07:26–07:59)

• On the occult scene:
  “What do you learn at occult school? Well, they, you know, they read occult books...This is what they called research, I guess.”
  — Co-host (28:51)

• On Blavatsky’s grift:
  “That’s a good grift, I got to say.”
  — Host (20:31)

• Guénon's chameleon identity:
  “He would say whoever understands the unity of traditions is not convertible to anything...there is nothing that implies the superiority of one traditional form over the other. What exists is merely reasons of spiritual convenience for you to choose.”
  — Co-host (67:58)

• Pointed skepticism:
  “It's really completely, I would say fake, whole movement.”
  — Co-host (09:02)

• On the theatricality of Western esotericism:
  “This is like when kids are playing around...Like I get to be King of Alexandria.”
  — Host (40:08–40:13)

• On Guénon's reputation:
  “For someone who was so obsessed with the mystical Orient, it seems he wasn’t very interested in Islam.”
  — Co-host (72:12)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Traditionalism: Refresher & Definition – 05:00–09:16
• Guénon's Early Life & Paris Occult Scene – 10:53–14:45
• Theosophy, Occult Organizations, and Blavatsky – 14:45–22:43
• Guénon, Papis, and Western Esotericism – 25:16–28:45
• Wild Tales of Occult Societies – 29:48–33:05
• Fake Initiations & Masonic Drama – 32:23–39:48
• Guénon's Religious Transformations – 39:48–60:03
• After the War: Attempts to Anchor Traditionalism in West/East – 45:45–51:06
• The Cairo Years & Guénon's Isolation – 64:12–73:04
• Legacy and Death – 75:04–77:07

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Tone & Style

The hosts’ tone is irreverent, sardonic, and skeptical—well aware of the absurdities and pretensions rampant in the traditionalist and occult scenes. They oscillate between detailed, deadpan overview and wry asides (“What do you learn at occult school?”), never losing sight of how much of the movement relied on self-mythology, plagiarism, and the social cravings of bored elites.

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Conclusion / Next Up

The episode closes with a look ahead to parts 2 and 3, which will focus on Guénon’s followers Frithjof Schuon and Julius Evola, as well as the intra-traditionalist conflicts that mark the movement’s later (and even stranger) years.

“This is like very occult stuff.” — Co-host (77:29)

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This summary provides a comprehensive, structured, and engaging overview for those who haven’t listened, highlighting all the significant moments, insights, and the distinct skeptical tone of the show's hosts.

Transcript

[Host]

What a sound.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

The frustrated sigh of a person who has just read too much on something bad.

[Co-host]

Yeah. But what about Steven Seagal?

[Host]

You've been really into the Steven Seagal making an appearance to Serbia. He's been to Serbia before.

[Co-host]

Yeah. But I'm fascinated that because he visited this, Visited this like, municipality, like town hall building. They still have a portrait of Tito there.

[Host]

Yes. Where was that? Actually, where was.

[Co-host]

I think it's sopot. It's one of the, like outer municipalities of Belgrade.

[Host]

But that's also. So we're talking about Steven Seagal. Steven Seagal made a. Made an appearance at the Serbia's largest military parade as a guest of honor along with one of the sheiks of the UAE or something like that. It's funny because, I mean, this is,

[Co-host]

this, this is how you know your state is crumbling.

[Host]

It's like Steven Seagal shows up as

[Co-host]

a guest of honor of a military parade.

[Host]

Times are rough. He's filming a movie, I think.

[Co-host]

Oh, even better.

[Host]

Which is going to be great. No matter.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

What it is. But does he live in Russia full time now? Is that like his thing? You seem more in touch with the whole Seagal lore than. Than me.

[Co-host]

Not really. Yeah. But I. I don't know. He still looks like he pretends to be Chinese or something.

[Host]

Yes.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

Oh, damn. What's the, what's the song he does in patois? That's the me want the punani or something. Yeah.

[Co-host]

It's. It's kind of incredible how much Vucic lacks any sort of charisma whatsoever.

[Host]

He does.

[Co-host]

Like at all. It's incredible how successful politician he is, considering that. Yeah.

[Host]

He doesn't have any kind of natural charisma. He's not a good. He's terrible.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

At giving speeches. He's just weird.

[Co-host]

Yes. And also, like, people never throughout his life liked him. He was always hated by people who knew him. Like when he used to be in the Radical party in the 90s and early 2000s, he was like a number three guy in the party. But he was always hated by everyone else.

[Host]

Yeah. Because he was like a little suck up. He's the kid that, you know, and

[Co-host]

he was like very like, he was. He behaved badly towards people, was very authoritarian and he doesn't like even Sheshil, who's a horrible piece of shit, but he had some like, sense of humor.

[Host]

She is legitimately funny to watch.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

Like him and the Hague was funny.

[Co-host]

Yes. Yes. And which is. He's not able to be funny at all.

[Host]

No.

[Co-host]

Like, not Even a little bit. And like, apparently, which is like, nickname in high school was Julia basically means something like scum.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I mean, that's your nickname in high school. I mean. Yeah.

[Host]

Well, he loves to be hated and he loves to be hated. And it's a song, Sam. Welcome back to the Empire Never Ended. This is not an episode about Steven Seagal or Vujic, but here we are.

[Co-host]

Yeah, but it is. There is a. It's closely somehow tied to Steven Seagal because it is an episode about a fake oriental person.

[Host]

Ah, okay.

[Co-host]

Who wore.

[Host]

Stand corrected.

[Co-host]

Who wore robes.

[Host]

Oriental is not the proper preferred nomenclature, dude.

[Co-host]

No, of course. But, like, this is how this. You know, I think Steven Seagal and think about those things in those terms.

[Host]

Absolutely.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

So, yeah, so we're back, I guess, for. For traditionalism. No, a little bit of genan.

[Co-host]

Traditionalism.

[Host]

Yes.

[Co-host]

So I. I meant to. And I forgot to check in. What episode number. Did we talk about Renegade before?

[Host]

Oh, I'm gonna look it up real quick. Episode 217.

[Co-host]

Okay. So in that episode, we sort of, in a detailed way went through Renegade's, like, central book, which is called the Crisis of the Modern World.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

And so you should listen to that episode if you really want to know the details about what traditionalism is as, you know, envisioned by renewal.

[Host]

But you should probably give us a quick summary.

[Co-host]

I will maybe a little bit later in this episode. But just roughly speaking, it's a kind of a 20th century. You can call it ideology, like a reactionary ideology that calls itself traditionalism because it believes in the existence of something which they refer to as primordial tradition, meaning some kind of a perennial eternal truth that always exists since, you know, the dawn of time, which is passed down to the world revealed religions. And especially in the more kind of esoteric levels of those religions, like in Islam, there would be Sufism and so on that, you know, has that, you know, the chosen elite, spiritual elites are a part of. So, you know, there is a kind of an exoteric side to a religion and an esoteric one. And the esoteric one is really in touch with that primordial tradition is the idea. But it's also like. I'll talk about that a little bit more later on. And the other kind of side to its own, like, kind of philosophy of history, which is very reactionary. So they. They believe that, you know, the world is getting bad and that kind of. It's kind of anti. It's the opposite of some kind of a progressivist view of history. You have certain Ages that you need to go through it's cyclical view of history and you go from a golden age through whatever bronze, silver and then the Dark ages.

[Host]

But this is also where Genoa and kind of borrowed extensively from like Hinduism.

[Co-host]

And I mean he took this whole view from his readings of Hinduism.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

So the kind of, the last, the most kind of deviant, degenerate age is the so called Kali Yuga, the Dark age, which is the age that we live in. Which by the way is not just something like modernity or something like that. It is the whole recorded history that we know of is inside the Kali Yuga.

[Host]

Right.

[Co-host]

And that's, you know, the characteristic of that age is that it's kind of the, it's. Everything is inverted in it. All the traditional values are inverted. So you know, from a very kind of reactionary point of view, everything is bad and then you know, it will eventually end and after it ends a new golden age will start where what that means that, you know, everything will be proper again and kind of proper hierarchies will be resurrected again. Which for those people meant something like a caste system.

[Host]

Right.

[Co-host]

So we talked all about that thing those. In those couple of episodes starting with that one.

[Host]

But thanks for the refresher because it has been two years, I think almost since that episode came out. So that's, it's, it's nice to get.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

Back into that mindset. Although we, we talked about, we. I mentioned Genon recently when talking about Seraphim Rose.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because he was a big Ginonest.

[Co-host]

Yeah. It's kind of a surprisingly influential point of view for many fascist, post fascist reactionary types and. Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

It's also interesting for somebody like Rose who, you know, adheres to a tradition that believes it is, you know, the true path or whatever.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, orthodox Christianity or whatever. But yet this kind of Ginonian idea is more universal. Right. It, it, it connects all world religions together in some way or another. Right.

[Co-host]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's kind of, I mean it's really completely, I would say fake whole movement.

[Host]

You don't say.

[Co-host]

Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's something that like the whole point of traditionalism is, you know, it is traditional. So they pretensions in the sense that they want to define what tradition is for everyone else and say that everyone else is using that word incorrectly. The only proper way to use it is in this context. According to them, no one else is allowed to use the word. But then, you know, as, I mean you will see what they are throughout the this and next two episodes. So for this episode and the two upcoming episodes, I'm using a book about the traditionalist movement written by Mark Sedgwick. It was published in 2004 called against the Modern World. And the subtitle is Traditionalism and the Secret Intellectual history of the 20th century. I read this book then, like, 20 years ago. So I read it now, and I decided to do three episodes. This one, the first one will be about the founder of the moment, Renegade on. And then I'll do two more later on.

[Host]

All right.

[Co-host]

By his two kind of main followers. Shuan, on the one hand. About whom.

[Host]

Shuan.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

We never talked about him and Evola.

[Host]

I'd remember that.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Nivola is the third one that we'll talk about.

[Host]

And who we did talk about. We did probably also close to episode 217. It's after 217, but I don't know which one off the top of my head. Yeah.

[Co-host]

So Rene Jean Marie Joseph. Que Non is his full name. And he was born in 1886, died in 1951. He was born in Blois in France, 160km from Paris. So his father was an in. Worked in an insurance company. He was the only child. He was very close to his mother and even closer to his aunt. And both his mother and aunt were, like, devout Catholics. He was kind of a, you know, had an ordinary childhood, was good in school, especially in math. And in 1904, he moved to Paris as a student to study math. So he was 18 when he moved to Paris in 1904. But he was doing badly at university. So he Left School in 1906 and became a part of the occult scene in Paris. So he probably had some kind of independent income because he wasn't worried about money at the time. And he joined an occult group called the Martinist order in 1906.

[Host]

Martinist order.

[Co-host]

Yes. And actually, that's like, a lot of his ideas come out of that.

[Host]

So what kind of tradition is that?

[Co-host]

Yeah, well, I mean, it's not exactly a tradition, except maybe you can call it, like, the tradition of, like, Western occultism, which means fake shit.

[Host]

Yes.

[Co-host]

So the Martinist Order was established in 1890 by a guy called Gerard Inkos, I guess, who call himself Papis. Yes. So Puppies was a central figure, according to Sedgwick, at least in the early development of traditionalism. That is a very kind of occult guy. So he was a medical doctor, a physician, and he was also a son Of a. Like a practitioner of alternative medicine who wasn't, unlike him, an actual doctor. His father invented something which was called the Incas Generator, named after him, which I don't know exactly what it was. So like his father Papis was into homeopathy, mesmerism and such things. But unlike his father, he actually, you know, studied medicine and became a doctor. So in 1887, Papis, while studying medicine, joined Isis, which was the Paris Lodge of the Theosophical Society.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

So both Puppies and Gennon really the roots of their kind of perennialism. So perennialism is another name for traditionalism in this sense that Gennon uses it, but the one that's not specifically tied to Genon specific view of it. Like, okay, everything that I tried to describe. Because perennialism, of course, is not. Was not this idea that there is some kind of a perennial philosophy, meaning this primordial tradition as some kind of an essence, some eternal truth that is contained in the world religions and so on, is an older idea than renegade on. Sure. It was especially popular during the Renaissance. So it also as an idea existed inside of Theosophical society. And so really kind of people like Papis or Gennon learned about it from theosophical influences. So something a little bit about the Theosophical Society, we should at some point talk about it in more detail.

[Host]

We really should, because it comes up all the time.

[Co-host]

Yeah. So Theosophical Society was what you would call a new religious movement, which most people call just like a sect. So it was established in New York City in 1875 by a respected lawyer and journalist and also a colonel called Henry Olcott. The idea that Olcott had when he established the Theosophical Societies to. For it to serve the purpose of researching comparative religion, let's say, and find this ancient wisdom which would be, you know, the source of our all religions. Olcott thought that his perennial philosophy can be found in the Vedas, in, you know, the. In Vedanta and also in the books of Hermes, like the Corpus Hermeticum, which, you know, also was very popular in Renaissance as the source for this idea of this perennial philosophy. He all could also had the idea which would later genon inherent. And that these are. This eternal wisdom is somehow. That it somehow survived in Freemasonry, at least in some form. And so they. A lot of these people had the idea that there is some kind of a profane Freemasonry that kind of forgot its esoteric occult roots. And that there is some still this kernel of like this truth surviving in some forms of Freemasonry.

[Host]

So did you just skip over Helena Blavatsky?

[Co-host]

No, I mean. Okay, okay, I will mention her.

[Host]

All right.

[Co-host]

She will come in soon. I'm just talking about this guy who founded actually the Theosophical Society before she joined. She. She joins very soon and then takes it over. For example, one of these kind of more esoteric Freemasons according to these people, was a guy called Louis Claude de San Martin and Papis actually named his group the Martinist Order after this guy was this kind of more occult Freemason, according to them. But a lot of people had similar views before them. For example, you know, the kind of arch reactionary Joseph the Master, the critic of the French Revolution, monarchist and so on, who was also a Freemason, also had similar views about the kind of esoteric essence of Freemasonry and so on.

[Host]

So

[Co-host]

Olcott combined these ideas with this interest in Vedanta, which was also not his invention, but interest in Vedanta existed before him. For example, even like Ralph Waldo Emerson was very much into Vedanta and the Vedas and also into Perennialism. So Emerson, like, for example, when he. He wrote in his diary in 1839 that he. When he uses the word Bible, he doesn't mean just, you know, the, the Bible of the Jews and Christians, but he by that word means all ethical revelation considered generally, including that of the Vedas, for example. So, you know, these kind of trends existed for a long time.

[Host]

Yeah, I mean, this is also when people in Europe were starting to kind of discover. Yeah, you know, the, the Vedas and stuff like that. Yes, of course, it became very popular.

[Co-host]

So Oko became friends with Helena Petrovna Blavatsky. Blavatsky was actually of like Baltic, like Russian, German origin. I think her original last name was German. She married like a Russian upper class guy who was, I think a vice governor of Yerevan and claimed. She claimed that she was a baroness by birth. She left her husband and then arrived to New York in 1873 after having many adventures which included running a spiritist society in Egypt and being charged with fraud. So Okot met her and you know, according to the story, fell under her spell. They met each other while they were together investigating a farm in Vermont where various paranormal phenomena was reported. So, you know, they were paranormal investigators. Nice, like, you know, molder and scaly types. So they met and, you know, they became instant friends. So Theosophical Society originally had, you know, all cut and like, as chairman and 16 other members. And then Blavatska joined as the 18th member. And a month after it was founded, Blavatsky was elected as a corresponding secretary and was able to divert the group to. For her own purposes. So Okut, you know, this tells you a lot about him when immediately after he met her, after he met Helena, he started receiving these mysterious communications in the mail, which were written on a green paper in golden ink.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

And they were signed by a grandmaster of the mystical brotherhood of Luxor in Egypt, which stole. Guess what the mystic brotherhood of Luxor had to say to Olcott was that the sister Helena is very valiant and trustworthy servant of their brotherhood and that all could find her an apartment in New York City and look after her.

[Host]

Nice.

[Co-host]

Which he did.

[Host]

I mean, that's a good grift, I got to say.

[Co-host]

So somehow, miraculously, the Theosophical Society became a worldwide organization which was based in India. And this is like a kind of interesting history because they were not only kind of appropriating this, you know, ideas about the Orient, let's say very, in a very, you know, wrong way, but they also managed to influence like, for example, Indian nationalism. So that's kind of an interesting story, but we won't get into it now. So a part of their success they owed to the sex of the success of the two books that Blavatsky allegedly wrote and published. The first one was Isis unveiled, published in 1877. The second one is the Sacred Doctrine, published in 1888. So I said allegedly wrote because she said that the real authors of the books were some kind of ethereal sources, not of this world completely, but what she did was she drafted them and then the books were all. Both books were finished by ghostwriters. But in reality, this is also largely plagiarized from various occult books popular in, in the West. She would take, like, from this book, 100 pages from that book, 100 pages. That's a compilation of like, stolen material. Somewhat changed.

[Host]

Borrowed.

[Co-host]

Yes. So Blasky claimed association with the Tibetan initiated adepts, which she called the Great White Brotherhood. These are, these. This is the source of the, you know, the sacred doctrine. She was exposed again as like a Fraud in 1884 by a society called Society for Psychical Research, who even. They even like, discovered kind of a false panel in, on one of the walls in, in the headquarters of the Sophocle Society that they use for some tricks and such things.

[Host]

Nice. Yeah, they play like parlor tricks on, on their guests.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

To show like, how Magical.

[Co-host]

They are, yes.

[Host]

That's awesome.

[Co-host]

But they managed to survive this. So, you know, they existed. I mean, they still exist, but so, you know, when Papis joined them in France in the early 20th century, he joined this Isis lodge and started writing for a French Theosophical journal. APIs was very, in his writings focused on initiation, which is also very characteristic of his later follower Renegin on. So this whole idea of initiation as a way of getting in touch with the esoteric side of religion, which is in touch with this primordial truth, by joining an order, an esoteric order that exists inside of some kind of a religion, like Sufis, for example, in Islam. That's what interests him. And you can clearly see that this is also what influenced Renegade later on. But also Papis also anticipates Gennon's interest in Freemasonry and also in this idea that there is a kind of a religious Freemasonry, the esoteric one, which is legitimately somehow esoteric in this sense, that it has parts of this primordial tradition in itself. And the other parts, most parts of Freemasonry lost it already within a year of his membership in the Theosophical Society, Papis had a conflict with senior French Theosophist. So Alcott himself intervened. The lodge Isis was disbanded and a new lodge, Hermes, was established. And Papis became a correspondent secretary, which is the same title that Blavatsky had in the larger Theosophical Society. So kind of influential position, but he started developing his own things and while still being a member of the Theosophical Society, so he started the Martinist Order. So the point of the Martinist Order was supposed to be this kind of corrected Freemasonry. Freemasonry that's fully esoteric in its nature, mystical and so on. In 1899, as he established the Martinist Order, he also established a group which was called the Independent Group for Esoteric Studies, which was a kind of a esoteric occult school which was supposed to prepare people for entry both into the Martinist Order and the Theosophical Society.

[Host]

So at this point the, the, the Martinists are basically an offshoot of Theosophy.

[Co-host]

They are the offshoot of Theosophy that exists parallel as the Theosophical Society. And most of the Martinists are also Theosophists. But the one also kind of Mason,

[Host]

it's kind of a Masonic version of Theosophy, I guess.

[Co-host]

Yeah, it's. I mean, a lot of like Western occultism has the form of some Kind of a Masonic form. Like a lot of groups are like that. They are like irregular Masonry, like not recognized by the major Masonic groups and more esoteric. So for example, you know, the order Temple Orient is mostly known because of Aleister Crowley is also kind of a quasi Masonic group in its form. So the new group, the Martinist Order presented danger for Blavatsky because, you know, her authority was in question now because something exists that attracts theosophist, but it's not under her control. Some other guy who has ambitions similar to her in France is doing something, you know, and is becoming a teacher his own. So she attacks publicly Papis and then in order to defend himself, he starts a journal called Le Royal Disease, or the Veil of Isis. So this is a direct reference to her book Isis Unveiled. The whole point of the journal is to attack Blavatsky. And after this he's expelled from the Theosophical Society and a number of French Theosophist follow him and join, join the Martinist Order and leave Theosophy behind them. In fact, the Hermes Lodge dissolved and by 1900 the Martinist order is a new success in the occult market. And they have allegedly 100 like lodges and exist in the United States and in Russia as well.

[Host]

Oh, wow.

[Co-host]

Yeah. By the way, this is then at this point they had 100 lodges by 1900, by 19, according to Mark Sedgwick. So I'm not sure if they exist now. I think they kind of went away. Maybe in some form they exist. But this, this journal that Papi started, the Whale of Isis, he will be of central importance for the traditionalist movement in some other form later on. But it continued to exist until 1992 under a different name. I'll mention that a bit later. So in 1906 Genon joined the Martinist Order, but also the, the group that Papis or founded as a kind of, or occultist school now changed its name to Free School of Hermetic Sciences. So Gennad also joined that. And in addition to joining these two groups, Gennon also joined an irregular Masonic lodge called Humanidad. So he's a Martinist, a free irregular Freemason and also a member of this occult school organized by Papis in 1906. So Genn really takes the occult school's objectives very seriously to discover the perennial philosophy. Philosophy.

[Host]

Well, what do you learn at occult school? Well, what's the class classes like?

[Co-host]

Well, they, you know, they read occult books that there were many, you know, at that time. And they like, you know, this is what they called research, I guess. And, I mean, some of them did try to learn other languages, meet people with similar interests who traveled, and tell them about, you know, weird groups that they encountered while traveling around the world and such things. They also do lectures and so on. Like Renegade. Like, he. He read a lot, you know, and kind of had a kind of his own way of researching things. That kind of seems very serious. He was not recognized as an. Like an academic, even though he tried to. But he, you know, he uses references and so on. But the criteria for his research is very dubious, as you will see.

[Host]

What is the one, like, Freemason order things where they all jack off together?

[Co-host]

I don't know.

[Host]

It's like some sort of Scottish thing. They might not be Masons. It's some sort of weird, like, secret society from back in the day. I don't know.

[Co-host]

It's.

[Host]

It's where. Where I got the idea of the Chantavia.

[Co-host]

It's not a skull and bones or something like that.

[Host]

It's not. It's. It's in Scotland. I know that. Or it's a Scottish thing.

[Co-host]

Well, one of the main, like, Masonic groups is called the Scottish Rite.

[Host]

Yeah. But I don't think it's the Scottish. Right.

[Co-host]

And this is.

[Host]

Although I guess it was pretty mainstream. I don't know. I have to get back to you on that.

[Co-host]

Okay. Think it's hot here under this light. It's.

[Host]

It's hot here in general because we closed all the windows. All the windows closed.

[Co-host]

These are not ideal conditions under this light. And with the mic that I cannot move. But. Okay.

[Host]

How you're forced to toil for the

[Co-host]

podcast, you know, so they believe, you know, in this eternal light, the essence of all religions, which was transmitted by Hermes from, you know, ancient Egypt and is the source of initiation, which is also something believed by theosophist. And they combined this with their research into. So, you know, how they saw the Indian tradition. So Genon immersed himself into the study of Hinduism, and his search for initiation led to his contact conflict with Papis. Now. So first, you know, Papis was in conflict with Blavatsky, and now Genon is in conflict with him. So this is something interesting about Gennad's history. So during a sands. So he was also spiritist, like Gennady was in 1908. Jacques de Molay, the grand master of the templars from the 13th and the 14th century, communicated something to Renegade.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

And he gave distractions for proper initiation. And this is going to be okay. Yeah. And this is a Problem for many of cultists because they don't have like a living tradition which they can, you know, become a part of, which is kind of a esoteric occult tradition. So they have to invent things all the time, like how to, you know, be a proper initiate and not be a Muslim or something like that. So Genon now according, you know, to these instructions that he. This dead guy gave him, he re establishes the Templars.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

This is a Neo Templar organization that Gennon starts called the Order of the Temple Renewed Order of the Temple with other five guys who are all Martinists. So it kind of history repeats itself. You know, he doesn't leave the Martinist order and with some other members of that group starts a new group that kind of centers himself. But also he did a big no, no for all of these groups, as we know. He. He took the mailing list of the Martinist order.

[Host]

Okay, sorry, I did, I did Remember it is called the Beggars Benison, which is a Scottish gentleman's club. Yes. Found in the 1700s and then they jacked off together.

[Co-host]

Yeah, well, I don't know if the tempers did that as well, you know, but it's quite possible. I mean usually it's is usually all the same things with these people. So. So puppies got mad and expelled him from the Martinist Order. Yeah, but the Templars were not the new, you know, Theosophical society. They disbanded quickly. By 1911, Genn's tempers were gone already. And Genn didn't want to talk about them later on. He was embarrassed by the whole ordeal. Yeah, he avoid discussing it. So I just gonna mention quickly now something that's kind of outside of the main narrative of this episode. There was another guy who was kind of also by some people counted as one of the founders of the traditionalist school. I don't want to talk about him much. I just want to mention him. There's a guy called Ananda Kumaraswamy, okay. He's well known because he was like a historian of art and wrote a lot of books about Indian art and so on. And he was actually the curator of the department of Indian Art at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. So he was like. Had a Tamil father and was born in Ceylon, but when he was 2, he moved to England and Ceylon being Sri Lanka. Sri Lanka. And he, his father was like the first Indian to become an English barrister and was even knighted in 1874. So Kumaraswamy had like a. Was quite rich, was a part of kind of the British establishment and had a good education and so on. But then when he was older, he started supporting Sri Lankan nationalism and such things, but also turned to study of art and was apparently a part of, you know, occult circles in England. His wife actually had an affair with Aleister Crowley, so they divorced. He moved to United States, but he corresponded with Rene Guinon and contributed to the founding of the. What we now call the Traditionalist movement.

[Host]

Interesting. Okay.

[Co-host]

His son actually was also a traditionalist, but interestingly, I forget now his name, the last name is Sam Kumarasami, but I. I think he's Rama Kumaraswami. He's interesting because he was a con. He converted to Catholicism and he was kind of a. Kind of a traditionalist in a Genonian sense, but also a trad cat.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

Which. I don't know how that goes together.

[Host]

I mean, it's the same thing with, you know, like I said in the beginning, with Seraphim Rose.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Host]

How do you do both of these things at the same time? It's odd.

[Co-host]

So in 1909, Genon joins another occult group. This one is called the Universal Gnostic Church. So in the context of this occult group that calls itself Gnostic, Gennad mentions another important guy for his own development called Count De Puvil, let's say. Okay, so this guy is a. He says that he's a Taoist. Okay. So the Count, the Taoist Count is kind of an interesting guy, but not in a good way in the context of this group. Ginan also starts his first journal, Culture, called L and the Church. The so called church was established in 1888 and it took its rights adapted from the Qatars allegedly. And also got some, allegedly some consecration from three Qatar bishops. I don't know what Qatar bishops would be at that time, except some other cultists, but also allegedly from an actual Catholic bishop in Utrecht when they established the church. And the guy who led this church called himself Patriarch Valentin ii. Okay, say they.

[Host]

So this I love a good fake Patriarch. It's a theme on our show.

[Co-host]

Yes. So these like Gnostics were also part of the same circles as Theosophist and Martinists. So a lot of Theosophist and Martinists actually joined this church, including puppies. So in 1891, you know, this was concerning enough for the Catholic Church. So they officially condemned the revived Gnostic heresy.

[Host]

Nice.

[Co-host]

And also put books written by Papis on the index of prohibited books by the church.

[Host]

One way to make it.

[Co-host]

Yeah. So Valentine Patriarch Valentine II had a vision in 1894. And he renounced Gnosticism and returned to Roman Catholicism and he wrote a book condemning Gnosticism, Martyrs in Martinism, Freemasonry as the devil's work. So there was a genre of these kind of books at that time.

[Host]

So I mean, I guess presumably, I mean these movements are, are big enough to attract the actual buyer of the, the real, you know, the Catholic, the Roman Catholic Church. Yeah, the. What are we talking like in terms of their international.

[Co-host]

Well so you know like Theosophy, Martini's group. Allegedly they had like, you know, they say hundreds of lodges. Yeah. So but these were not big groups. But still I think they attracted a lot of people from who had money. That's what they say.

[Host]

It's kind of an upper class phenomenon. Of course.

[Co-host]

Right, of course, yeah. People who have time.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

People who search for the meaning of life.

[Host]

Right.

[Co-host]

You have time for such things. So yeah. So there was also a kind of, I think kind of a version of some kind of a satanic panic at the time going on because there was these groups and then in the church condemning them and then people who were ex occultists writing books saying how it's all Satanism. It was like a genre of literature like that. The anti occult by ex occultists. So this church split in two factions, one of which was the Martinist and the other was not. And so when Genn joined them, this was in his post Martinist phase. So he joined the non Martinist wing of the Gnostic Church and he was actually consecrated as Palingenius, the Bishop of Alexandria. That's Genn.

[Host]

Oh wow, okay.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

So Alexandria, Egypt.

[Co-host]

Yes, of course.

[Host]

Where he didn't reside.

[Co-host]

Not at all.

[Host]

No. And presumably maybe I'd never even been.

[Co-host]

Well, I don't know. He later lived in Egypt but he lived in Cairo. But this was much later now. No, of course, never went there. So you know he's a Templar.

[Host]

This is like when kids are playing around.

[Co-host]

Exactly.

[Host]

Like I get to be King of Alexandria.

[Co-host]

Yeah. So the Taoist. I said can't count. So the Taoist count, the, or whatever his name, stupid name is he. He was an aristocrat and kind of. He was in the French Foreign Legion, a wealthy guy. He was in, in Indochina, in the Cologne, participated in colonial wars.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

Deserted from the Foreign legion and allegedly according to himself joined a triad in Vietnam somewhere which he considered initiatic group a kind of. He, he saw triads as some kind of a counterpart to European Freemasonry.

[Host]

And what is that? Oh, triads, like. Yeah, like organized crime.

[Co-host]

Well, he saw it as an initiatic mystical group. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess so. He was saved by his influential father from the consequences of deserting from the Foreign Legion. And he actually got a job because he learned Vietnamese. He got a job in the Ministry of Foreign affairs and had some special duties for them. He came back to France and published a book which condemned French colonialism. But he would change his mind later on, I mean, at least somewhat. I mean, he's a bad guy. He worked as a journalist and a writer in Paris from 1894 to 1911 and started publishing books. He published like in average. Like a book per year initially on Chinese art and history and so on. But he became a member or kind of influential member of French colonial institutions and he even became a president of the Foreign Legion Veterans Association. I guess they forgot that he was

[Host]

a deserter or he was just connected enough that it didn't matter.

[Co-host]

Yeah. He became a part of the occult scene, of course. Wrote a lot about spiritual subjects, became connected with puppies, but then broke relations with him. He was an anti Catholic perennialist.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

And in 1910, Genon calls this guy the originator of the idea of primordial tradition. Which is wrong, but still, you know, he claims that he's kind of a occult guy, is the originator of that idea. But so the Purville becomes a sort of a paranoid about Asians and he thinks that the west is under the threat of the yellow peril or something like that. He wants to defend the white race against them. This was partially like such things in. In his case and in others were influenced by the Russo Japanese War of 1905 when yeah, Russia was humiliated by the Japan. And this was like alarming for a lot.

[Host]

This is a very important event in world history at the time because. Yeah, it was. Japan beat a major European power.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

And people were freaking out about that.

[Co-host]

Yeah. So this guy, the. The. The Tao, the alleged Taoist member of triad who hates Asian people. He had this. The idea of a twofold way how the white race will be saved.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

So one is a Franco German alliance and he even established like a bilingual monthly journal for descent and the other was Western control of Chinese philosophical and sociological resources. So this is kind of interesting, Cedric. Doesn't really explain much, but I think it's implied and I would seem it makes sense to me that this also kind of influenced Genon's approach to.

[Host]

But what do you mean by that? Did he think that there was like a Pope of China or something and that You. You install your guy and then, you know, he directed all the.

[Co-host]

Well, I talk. I will talk about it in a few minutes, I think. So I will try to explain what I mean by.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

He also thought that, like, opium is also a resource that should be used. He's like. To smoke it himself. He got Genome to smoke it as well. And also allegedly the Ministry of Colonies in France.

[Host]

So they were all fucking.

[Co-host]

Yes.

[Host]

Doped out of their mind.

[Co-host]

Yeah. So in 1912. Indeed. In addition to all of this, Gen also joins an irregular Masonic lodge. He also gets married to a woman called Bert Luri, who was a. This is Genon. Now we're back to our main guy. His wife is an assistant school teacher. And at this time, like, after this kind of like intensely occult phase of Genome, he becomes like a regular middle class or. Yeah, like lower middle class. He had money problems all the time, but like, person who seems to be like an observing Catholic to most people. He also gave up smoking opium and hash and they had a. They had a Catholic ceremony when they married and so on. So in 1917, I think he was asked to become the new patriarch of the Gnostic church, but he refused. He was over that.

[Host]

I don't do that anymore. Okay. I dropped that when I stopped doing opium.

[Co-host]

And the First World War was kind of the end of the Martinist order, according to Sedgwick, because a piece was mobilized and died in 1916.

[Host]

Oopsies.

[Co-host]

They had a new master who also died in 1918. And then they split into several factions and kind of declined.

[Host]

I don't know why that's funny to me. These like, major, like, occult leaders just being fucking part of some, like, human wave attack. Like the most senseless thing ever. Just being cut down by machine guns.

[Co-host]

Yes.

[Host]

Some field in France.

[Co-host]

Well, you know, so. So the whole experience of the First World War was kind of like, to everyone who went through it, you know, extremely traumatizing for all of them.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

And, you know, we also mentioned that, like, it was. It had a role in the founding of the Eurasianist movement in Russia immigrant circles. The whole experience of the First World War and the October Revolution.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

And this is the case with traditionalism as well, because many of these people lost any faith in modernity. And to them, I mean.

[Host]

Okay, fair. Yes. Again, if like all of your, you know, esoteric buddies did die these horrible deaths and, you know.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

Gassed and. Yeah.

[Co-host]

I mean, it. It's completely like. I mean, it was objectively apocalyptic.

[Host]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Co-host]

So. But it created favorable conditions for the Development of traditionalism, you know. Oh, great, yes, and fascism and so on. So in 1921, Gennon publishes his first book, which is called the General Introduction to the Study of Hindu Doctrines. So this text was previously rejected as a doctoral thesis by a distinguished French Indologist called Sylvain Levi. So Levi objected to this text because Gennad didn't use standard scholarly methods and would just leave out anything that didn't fit into his theory. And according to Levy, Genn falsely believed that Hinduism can be reduced to Vedanta. He wanted to make things kind of easy, compact, and also comparable to monotheistic religion.

[Host]

Sure.

[Co-host]

So another objection that Levi had to Genon was that Genon was too much ready to believe in a mystical transmission of a primal truth that appeared to humanity in the first ages of the world. In 1924, Ganon publishes a book called east and west, or Orient and Occident. And this was now a call for saving the west from collapse by means of Oriental tradition. So this is what I meant, that how he was influenced by. Influenced by that guy who wanted to appropriate Eastern spirituality in order to save the West.

[Host]

Right.

[Co-host]

I think that's also kind of a part of traditionalism, although it's not always clearly stated. So Genn claims what is needed was an intellectual elite, a spiritual elite, which will be able to receive traditional teaching from the east because it's lost. Esoteric wisdom is lost, is disappointing his occult, esoteric experiences. It's lost in the West. You should take it from the east, but assimilate it into the west somehow to push the west towards a restoration of, you know, traditional civilization. Let's say, unless you are able to find surviving Western forms of true esotericism. But, you know, Geno never fully completely gave up on that idea that maybe you will be able to find something still surviving. He had like, until the end, some kind of faith in Freemasonry and that form, because not all of all of his followers wanted to become Muslims. So to the ones who didn't want to, he recommended Freemasonry. And they are like Masonic lodges in France specifically and other places who were started by traditionalist followers of Gennon for this purpose, to have a kind of initiation, a traditionalist initiation in a Christian context. So first you would need to start forming small study groups. And then out of this, this kind of spiritual elite would grow that will be able to renew this tradition by assimilating either assimilating Eastern philosophy in the west or by doing research and finding some authentic esoteric tradition in the West.

[Host]

Well, I mean, what do they consider the west here? Europe. Yeah, because I mean, you have like these weird. I mean you have interesting like syncretic religions in the Americas. You know the. No, they, I guess probably weren't that interested in like Ken Dumble or something.

[Co-host]

No, they are like. Okay, there will be. I will. In the next episode I will talk about some traditionalist ideas about like Native American spirituality. But they're talking about white people here and they. And they are also allegedly very much against syncretism.

[Host]

Ah, okay.

[Co-host]

That's a big no. No.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

So they have an idea about themselves. They are not syncretic. So you need to be like an orthodox follower of a particular religion. Like if you are a Sufi, you need to be an observant Muslim.

[Host]

Mm.

[Co-host]

Like. And so the idea is that like the exacteric should also be completely followed and appreciated. And in that context you should become a part initiate of a specific strand.

[Host]

I see.

[Co-host]

So. And you should. But in theory they are very syncretic. Like, I mean. Okay, I will talk about it very soon. So you need to start forming this study groups in order to research all of this. That needs to be researched, but they need to be secret because it's like a dangerous thing to do because as Genon said, there are unsuspected low powers that will want to attack and destroy you. And this is what he has in mind here actually is kind of theosophy and similar groups that he starts develop this idea that they are counter initiatic groups. So he developed this idea of counter initiation because everything is reversed and inverted in Kali Yuga. So is initiation.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

And these like occult groups are actually counter initiate. They will take you further away from primordial truth.

[Host]

I see.

[Co-host]

Yeah. And they are dangerous and they want to destroy someone who is, you know, dedicated to actual restoring primordial traditional. So in this period, Gennon makes some kind of an alliance with some Catholics who are like. It's a kind of an anti secular, anti modernist alliance. So there was a, like a Catholic institute, probably there still is in Paris, which was an anti secular institution founded when the church was separated from the state. So they, you know, you couldn't study like Catholic theology at this secular school. So they have their own institution. So Genon attends lectures there and also gives his own lectures there. His books and some texts in this period were published by some help in lobbying from his new kind of Catholic friends at this time. And a lot. It's probably that in these early days in the. This is now like after the war in like early 20s. And that some of these people saw him as a Catholic at that time. Genon also returned to University in 1915. He got like an equivalent to a BA degree in Philosophy. And he taught philosophy in a school in Algeria 1917, in 1980, 1918. And then got a job in France at a Catholic school for girls in 1922. But after his books were actually published, Catholics kind of cut ties with him because it was obvious to them that he's into some strange things for them. So one of his Catholics collaborators was also kind of a strange Catholic, but kind of occult guy whom Gennad met in 1925 called Louis Charbonnet Lasalle. This was an ultra Catholic antiquarian who studied Christian symbolism. And they were affiliated both with some journal. And Genon wrote text about the legend of the Holy Grail for that journal which was affiliated with this Catholic guy. He also had this idea that he wants to restore some kind of a Christian Freemasonry in fight against the anti Christian Freemasonry. And had hopes, this Charbonnella side guy had hopes for a revival of the sacred science inside the Catholic Church. And thought this is needed for the Catholic Church to. For not for it not to be overthrown. This is also probably this fear of the east and you know, the feast. The east is superior not only militarily, like you know, in the shown in the Russo Japanese war, but also, you know, they have a living tradition which is for these people something like esoteric tradition, which is essential for these people.

[Host]

Right.

[Co-host]

So this guy is not open for Asian religions. So he's kind of anxious about finding and reviving this esoteric tradition in the West.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

And Genon always had people who were like that who remained Christians and either like later on, they are, you know, Orthodox Christian, traditionalist and so on. Who, for example, Dugin. He claims that orthodox Christianity is in itself initiatic. That if you're an orthodox Christian you don't need to join some specific order or something like that. You are already initiated. Interesting and such things. So there are different ideas about how this is applied. Again, on specifically didn't think that about Orthodox Christianity. Why? I don't know. He. He didn't. One of his followers visited like a monastery in Mount Athos and told him about Hesi Chasm and so on. But Genon was not impressed and said you should become a Sufi. That's. That's nothing. Something like that. Okay. Yeah.

[Host]

He was committed at that point. We're gonna switch it up now.

[Co-host]

So in the 1920s so the, that old journal, the, the Whale of Isis that I mentioned before stand, which was started by you know, the former master of Genoa and Papis in order to attack Blavatsky. He was actually, the general was actually owned by some two brothers who were like well known publishers of occult literature. They would publish like hundreds of books, occult books. And because the Martinist order was gone, the this journal still existed. And they actually made a deal for Genone to become the editor of this journal. And it would soon change its name to the like Traditional Studies in French. And it became the central organ of the traditionalist movement, let's say. And as I said, it was published until 92. Wow, 1992. So this is, you know, the time in the 20s when the traditionalist school or movement, Genonians are kind of formed as such. You know, they have a journal, they have some doctrine already because the first, earliest kind of Genon traditionalist books are published. So this is this, you know, now they have some worldview. We live in the Kali Yuga, it's the end times, everything is inverted. They have a kind of reactionary view of what is a good society. It's a kind of a monarchical caste system, basically very reactionary, you know, and then there is this primordial truth that you can be in contact with, with if you are an initiate. But in order to be an initiate, you must be an observant member of one of the worldly religions. And then a part, if that religion still has an esoteric tradition in it, be initiated into that esoteric tradition. The problem was that in the west, although you have the Catholic Church, which is like a proper to some extent exoteric religion, like the outer layer, although of course they were completely anti modernist against all the reforms and so on, it lost its inner esoteric core. And so it's. So the problem, you know, is you can either somehow find some remnants of some through esoteric tradition in the west, revive it, or find it in Freemasonry, or join a non European religion and you know, be initiate in that tradition. So before this, I think during the Second World, the first World War, or just before it, Genn was initiated two more times. So he's collecting this, you know, he's a member of many groups initiated in all kinds of things. So by his friend in 1911, he received what he thought of as a Taoistic initiation by joining this triad, okay, that his friend was a member of, but also he became a Sufi. Although there is no evidence that this, in this early on period, he was a practicing Muslim. In fact, he was a practicing Catholic.

[Host]

So he went straight from Catholicism to Sufism.

[Co-host]

Well, it was simultaneous somehow, because he. He became a Sufi, therefore he had to become a Muslim. So he was initiated as a Muslim. I mean, he became a Muslim initiated as a Sufi by this stranger, Swedish anarchist guy called Ivan Agel, who was like a bohemian painter who lived in Egypt and became a Sufi there. He became a member of the Shadiliya Arabia Sufi order. And he initiated, you know, into Sufism. And this is when he got his Muslim name that Gennad would also use later on, which was Abd al Waheed. But there is no evidence that he was at this time a practicing Muslim. So so far we kind of covered two phases in phases in Kinon's life. First one was this kind of intensely occult phase. Then there was this quasi Catholic, more kind of respectable phase when he's working with Catholics, publishes his books and in this period really kind of starts the traditionalist movement. And he's the center of it. He's the main, like, theoretician, let's say. Although he doesn't see himself, of course, as that because, you know, there is no theory as such. There is only this primordial truth and someone who is able to discover it and explain it to some extent. So, you know, but. So we are now entering the. The third and last phase of his life, let's say, at least according to Mark Sedgwick. So the third phase and last one was started like a. By a. A series of like catastrophic events or like very bad things happening to Rene Guinon. Okay, so in 1927, Gen, you know, everything was fine. He was 40 years old, he was married. He had some kind of middle class existence. He was teaching philosophy in girls high school, a Catholic school. Him and his wife didn't have children, but they were raising his wife's niece, okay, who her mother was alive, but for some reason the niece was living with them and they were raising her as their daughter. Basically this was going on since 1918. And also his favorite aunt was helping in this. But then he lost everything within two years.

[Host]

Damn.

[Co-host]

In 1927, his wife died while an operating table. Genon lost his job. And then in 1928 his aunt died and his niece was taken away from him and went to live with his. With her mother. This is also a period which he became very, very paranoid. And he thought that, you know, what he mentioned earlier, this unsuspected low powers are doing some kind of a magical attack on him.

[Host]

Okay, yeah.

[Co-host]

I mean, I mean a bunch of

[Host]

bad back to back terrible shit like that happening is.

[Co-host]

Yeah. And here already before that thought it's dangerous to do what he does, you know.

[Host]

Right.

[Co-host]

He was already kind of paranoid. They thought that these people are evil and want to destroy someone. They're counter initiatic organizations who want to destroy a true one and so on. So after all of these horrible things happened to him. In 1929, Rene Guinon met a wealthy American widow called Dina Shilito. Dina was also an occultist and a convert to Islam. So they were very close, possibly lovers. Mark Cedric is not sure. And they together planned a series of books written by Reneginon. Traditionalist books which Dina would finance. In 1930, the two of them sailed to Egypt to collect tax for their studies. This was probably Dina's idea because Geno never expressed any interest in traveling before that.

[Host]

And she probably had the money too, right? Yeah.

[Co-host]

And three months later she returned to France alone. They broke off their relations. We don't know why exactly.

[Host]

And he picked up the opium again until he picked up the pipe. And yeah, Cairo was smoking too much.

[Co-host]

So Renegade stayed in Egypt and he. This is where he lived until he died. So at first he wanted to stay there only a few months, but then he stayed just until he died in 1951.

[Host]

So you said that he won. This is in the 30s.

[Co-host]

He went there 1930.

[Host]

Wow. Okay. So he lived in Egypt for a long time.

[Co-host]

Yeah. So his only source of income at that time was. Were royalties from his books and texts, which was definitely not enough. So he became kind of desperate financially. And he wrote a letter to one of his followers in Paris, a guy called Rayor, who was one of the people who didn't want to convert to Islam and become a Sufi. He was still a Christian and he start. Was trying to do traditional stuff in the context of Freemasonry. And he did. This Rayor guy became a new editor of the. Their journal Traditional Studies.

[Host]

So he didn't have the same. He could have pulled a Blavatsky and sent like a letter to like an important person being like, Renee Ganon is the best student of Sufism I've ever seen. Please buy him a house.

[Co-host]

And well, but he, he. He was kind of even smarter maybe than she was in the way he positioned himself there. Because he didn't have to lie so much. You know, he just wrote about this primordial tradition that. So he would say I'm not a teacher. But in actuality this is how he was seen because he's the foremost authority on this subject, which is about the truth, which is essential for, you know, the survival of humanity. So he kind of was that already. And so after this, a number of his followers and admirers started sending him money. And he loved, lived off that.

[Host]

Oh nice.

[Co-host]

So it kind of worked. Sweet. And not only that, but in 1939 one of his followers, an English traditionalist called John Levy, bought a house in which Renegade lived and just gave him as a gift that.

[Host]

Okay, so he did. Yeah, got exactly that.

[Co-host]

Yeah, it worked. In 1934, Genon married an Egyptian woman called Fatima Mohammed Ibrahim and they had four children together. In 48 he took Egyptian citizenship. So there are a few reasons why he lived in Genon in, in Egypt, according to Cedric. One was that know it was cheaper to live there and he didn't have a lot of money. The other would be this kind of paranoid reason that he's kind of under the attack of these counter initiatic organizations. And the other one was that he really came into a contact with a living tradition in Egypt for the first time. So while in Egypt he insisted on wearing traditional robe. This is the Steven Seagal connection. And he didn't live in. He lived in Cairo, didn't live in parts of the city where Europeans usually lived. And he lived as a pious Muslim there and a Sufi. He scrupulously followed the requirements of Sharia and the recommendations of Sunnah. Except one is that he never made the pilgrimage, the Hajj to Mecca, even when he, his wife did in 1946.

[Host]

What a joke.

[Co-host]

I guess he really didn't like to travel. I don't know. So he joined the Hamdia Shadiliya Sufi order which was headed by like a prominent charismatic sheikh. Giron by the way, didn't have a very high opinion of the existing Sufi orders which he encountered. Encountered because he thought that they lost much of their spirituality. They became too political, many of them were involved in anti colonial struggles and so on. He also would insist how he didn't convert into Islam but moved into Islam. Because he would say whoever understands the unity of traditions is not convertible to anything. And he would say there is nothing that implies the superiority of one traditional form over the other. What exists is merely reasons of spiritual convenience for you to choose.

[Host]

I mean that's not particularly objectionable.

[Co-host]

Yeah. So in his writing he was much more traditionalist than Muslim. For him, like Hinduism, much more a source for like, you know, his doctrines or the doctrines that he wrote about. Then Islam was like when he Died. His house, like home library had 3,000 books and there were much more books there about Hinduism than there was about books about Islam. He had only a few or perhaps not even one book in Arabic. His like kind of Arabic was good like that he would use in his daily life. But his proficiency in like classical Arabic that was needed to read books in classical Arabic was not that great. So he probably didn't read in Arabic. He maintained an extensive correspondence. And this was like he. For hours every day he would deal with his correspondence. And through this way he was organizing the Western traditionalist elite, which was the kind of the essential task of the movement that he started was to form this elite. And he was doing that personally by being kind of in the center of this movement and maintaining this correspondence with people all over the world. He would occasionally have some visitors from Europe, but he was reluctant to have visitors because he was increasingly paranoid. In 1937, according to his own opinion, he suffered another magical attack against him from a European visitor who he believed was a member of the counter initiatic circle. So he kept his address secret and maintained a post office box.

[Host]

Okay, so familiar to.

[Co-host]

So he's.

[Host]

He's kind of losing his mind.

[Co-host]

Kind of. Yeah. So he would rarely leave his house. So he didn't have many friends. And although he didn't live in parts of the city where Europeans lived, almost all of his friends there, the few that he had were Western converts to Islam. And also interestingly, he had some Egyptian friends who were kind of Westernized. Westernized. So one of them was a convert to Buddhism as some Egyptian guy. So it's only convert that he has as friends, even like a local one is a convert to some other religion. Right, interesting. So he didn't have a big influence on Egyptian Islam. Only a few of his articles were translated to Arabic. And he wasn't in touch with many of the like Egyptian Islamic scholars. He, when he encountered, you know, actual Islam and Islamic tradition, he started to distinguish between mystical Orient and geographical Orient. Before he would contrast Orient to the west. And for him Orient was synonymous with tradition. Now he differentiates between the real existent Orient and you know, this kind of ideals, mystical one that he.

[Host]

It's kind of interesting that he didn't have any connection then in. I mean Cairo is the location of.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

One of the most prestigious universities for Islamic studies, Al Azhar University.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, you'd think that with that resource available to him as a convert, he would be interested in.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, corresponding with people, studying or whatever.

[Co-host]

I mean in some paradoxical way, it seems that he wasn't very interested in Islam. No, he. He was like, interested in being an initiate. And so he converted and was observant because he thought this is needed. Which also was probably something that was, you know, kind of a. A consequence of his previous occult life that he probably was kind of remorseful about or kind of scared of those people. So he wanted to do something that he saw as the opposite of that, to be a kind of an orthodox religious person doing everything as day in the daily life that such a person should do like a proper person, but also being able to be a part of an esoteric tradition as a part of that. So I think Sufism was, as he himself said, convenient for him.

[Host]

Right.

[Co-host]

In that sense. But he was, like, intellectually more interested, like in Indian things. So there was some that. So I mentioned his follower and friend in Paris who didn't want to become a Sufi. And then also that ultra Catholic antiquarian guy, Charbonnet Lassai, who, you know, was obviously a Catholic. So there was some attempt also to create some kind of idea of a living esoteric tradition in Christianity by these people who didn't want to convert to Islam. So they was, you know, reluctant to become a Muslim. And then from Sharpen El Assai, he heard about a surviving esoteric Catholic order that existed since the, I don't know, the 15th century or something like that called the Eternal Starborn or side. Told him about this. And it's a secret group, but the problem was you cannot be an initiate in it because it only had 12 members. And you would become a member when someone dies. So it's not very practical.

[Host]

No.

[Co-host]

But then after some time, Chabonel told him another secret to this guy Reor, and that this was that there was a kind of a dormant order inside of that order, which stopped existing in 1668. But its initiation was kept in a kind of a dormant state inside of this other order called the Eternal Star.

[Host]

I made that up.

[Co-host]

Yes. Called the Fraternity of the Cavaliers of the Divine Paraclete.

[Host]

Okay.

[Co-host]

They resurrected this order, but the problem was they didn't have any kind of rituals or practice or anything like that. But thankfully, you know, in 1946, the Charbonnel Assai guy remembered that one of the members of the Eternal Star actually told him about all the rituals and everything that you should do.

[Host]

Very convenient.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

But how did he forget that before?

[Co-host]

Yeah, somehow he forgot it. Yeah. Yeah. So. So there. There was that attempt of kind of creating some kind of fake Esoteric tradition in. In the west as well, by traditionalists. So Ganon was getting paranoid. He was scared and kind of. And as a consequence of that, perhaps his health started deteriorating. And he got sick in January of 1951. And he died. He was 64 years old when he died. He told his wife and children that they should leave his study room exactly as it was. And then he would be able to see his family after his death. If they do it in such a way. And Cedric says that when he was writing this book in the late 90s, the room looked exactly the same, except they added a TV in it. So that's the end of the. Our story about renegade.

[Host]

Renee, there's a great thing called television. There's about many programs that you might enjoy here.

[Co-host]

Can you see it? Yeah.

[Host]

Do you need me to angle it up a little?

[Co-host]

So one of the. The reasons why he was very kind of troubled when he died was there was a. There was a conflict inside the traditionalist movement when he died. And this is what we'll talk about in the next episode about this guy Sean.

[Host]

All right. Yeah, I like a good conflict.

[Co-host]

Yeah, that's a pretty interesting story. This follower of his became a kind of a master in his own right. He died in the United States, actually, in the 90s. It's an interesting story. You'll see. All right, cool.

[Host]

Well, yeah, that was. That was more Ganon than I was familiar with before, certainly. Even though we have covered him.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

Because we didn't really do any much biographical information.

[Co-host]

No.

[Host]

On him last time. Or really any at all. Just the basics, I think.

[Co-host]

Yeah. So before, in the whole episode, we kind of talked more about his ideas. And this book is kind of a historiography of the moment. So the next episodes will be the same. We'll talk about these two other important traditionalists and their lives. And what did they do in the context of the traditionalist movement. Right. And as you see, this is like very occult stuff.

[Host]

Yes. 100%.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Host]

Cool. Well, I guess we have that to look forward to next. And I'm going to stop here because my voice. I don't know if the listener has noticed.

[Co-host]

Yeah, you're sick.

[Host]

I am sick. And so we're not to talk that much anymore.

[Co-host]

Good.

[Host]

And save it for our next recording.

[Co-host]

Yes.

[Host]

All right.

[Co-host]

See you. See you. Bye.

[Host]

Tell me where you really want.

[Co-host]

Ray. Here. I had a dream, and it was that I won't be working in call centers anymore. And you can help that dream become a reality by going to patreon.com and subscribe. And if you're German or Austrian or anti Deutsch, whatever you people call yourselves these days, doesn't really matter. The fact is, your grandfather killed my grandfather. He marched down the street in my hometown, renamed the square Fucking Adolf Hitler Square. You think I'm kidding? All of this actually happened and you should feel bad about it? I don't care if you were born in 97 or wherever you were born. This is not normal behavior. Okay? You're not normal. I know people from all of the continents. No one thinks you're normal. But there's good news for you. We made a special tier just for you, so you can pay 10 times as much as a normal person would. It won't make you normal, but it will make you feel better. Okay, thanks. Bye.