The Empire Never Ended

Episode 339: Traditionalism Pt. 1 – René Guénon: The Occultist

Recorded: September 24, 2025
Hosts: Boris Mamlëz & Rey Katula

Overview

This episode kicks off a three-part deep dive into the intellectual and biographical history of Traditionalism, focusing first on its enigmatic founder, René Guénon. The hosts, Boris and Rey, explore Guénon's roots in Paris' early 20th-century occult scene, charting his evolution from Catholicism through Western occultism, multiple esoteric societies, and finally to Sufi Islam. They dig into the bizarre and interconnected world of Western esotericism, Theosophy, Freemasonry, and various semi-mystical pseudo-traditions that laid the groundwork for Traditionalism as a reactionary, anti-modernist, and surprisingly influential ideology in fascist and post-fascist circles.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Steven Seagal and “Fake Orientals”

• Boris and Rey start with a joking riff on Steven Seagal’s appearances in Serbia, connecting it—tongue firmly in cheek—to the episode’s theme of “fake oriental persons” (04:06).
• They immediately pivot: “This is not an episode about Steven Seagal or Vučić, but here we are.” (03:11)
• The connection is drawn between Seagal’s fake embrace of Eastern traditions and Guénon’s appropriation of “oriental” esoterica.

2. What is Traditionalism? (05:11, 06:09)

• Definition: A 20th-century reactionary ideology believing in a “primordial tradition”—an eternal, perennial truth underlying all major world religions, especially in their esoteric forms (e.g., Sufism).
• Cyclical view of history—derived from Hindu cosmology (Kali Yuga, Golden Age, etc.)—with the present as the lowest, most degenerate cycle (“everything is inverted in it. All the traditional values are inverted” – 07:26).
• Traditionalism posits an elite who alone can access the esoteric heart of religion and society.
• Boris: “There is a kind of an exoteric side to a religion and an esoteric one... the esoteric one is really in touch with that primordial tradition is the idea.” (05:28)
• Notable quote: “It’s really completely, I would say, a fake whole movement.” – Rey (09:02)

3. The Paris Occult Milieu and the Birth of Guénon’s Thought (10:53–14:45)

• Guénon grows up in France, good at math, but drops out of university and becomes active in Paris' occult subculture.
• Immerses himself in the Martinist Order (a quasi-Masonic, occult society) and learns from theosophy, especially the perennialist idea via Papis (13:46), a medical doctor-turned-occultist.
• Extensive coverage of Theosophy: Founded 1875 in New York, led by Olcott and later Helena Blavatsky, obsessed with finding a primal perennial philosophy beneath all world religions. (14:45–22:43)
• Boris: “...they managed to influence, like, for example, Indian nationalism. So that’s kind of an interesting story, but we won’t get into it now.” (20:36)

4. Western Occultism, Theosophy, and the Roots of Traditionalism

• Detailed history of Blavatsky, the Theosophical Society, their scandals and practices, including faked miracles and plagiarized texts like Isis Unveiled (21:54).
• Guénon’s and Papis’s infighting with Blavatsky and within the French occult landscape, marking the beginning of perennialist and traditionalist thought as distinct from Theosophy. (25:16–28:45)

5. Guénon’s Many Affiliations and “Initiations”

• Guénon hops through occult organizations: Martinist Order, irregular Freemasonry, and the bizarre Gnostic Church—collecting initiations in fake or “irregular” Masonic and esoteric societies (29:48–39:48).
• Hilarious asides about esoteric “schools,” ritual masturbation cults, and childhood make-believe compared to these adult secret societies (29:48–33:05).

6. The Occult Network: Paranoia, Backstabbing, and Reinvention

• Frequent occult schisms and the rise and fall of pseudo-churches and orders—Guénon is consistently at the center or on the outs (32:23–43:04).
• The story includes wild characters: “the Taoist Count,” alleged Asiatic triads, and the rise of “Yellow Peril” paranoia post–Russo-Japanese War—a clear bridge from mystical ranting to racial and geopolitical reaction (40:39–44:03).
• “Opium is also a resource that should be used. He’s like. To smoke it himself. He got Guénon to smoke it as well.” (44:19)

7. Shifts in Identity: From Occultist to Sufi

• Guénon reinvents himself: from a public Catholic respected by ultraconservative Catholics (albeit for a time) to a Sufi Muslim in Cairo (45:45–60:03).
• “He became a Sufi, therefore he had to become a Muslim. So he was initiated as a Muslim...but there is no evidence that he was at this time a practicing Muslim. In fact, he was a practicing Catholic.” (60:03)
• Guénon's approach: “He would say whoever understands the unity of traditions is not convertible to anything.” (67:58)

8. The Creation of an Esoteric Elite and Traditionalism’s Social Strategy

• Guénon and associates aim to create a secret intellectual-spiritual elite to restore the Tradition in the West—either by linking with Eastern spirituality (Sufism, Vedanta) or “pure” Masonic groups (48:45–51:06).
• Strict rejection of syncretism—while actually being highly syncretic (51:04–51:35).
• Traditionalism is presented through contradictions: anti-syncretic, but obsessed with cross-traditional links; Western, but looking East for rescue; obsessed with secret knowledge and yet striving for social influence.

9. The Cairo Years: Guénon's Final Transformation (64:12–76:08)

• After a series of personal tragedies, Guénon moves to Egypt with an American widow, but she soon leaves. He stays, marries an Egyptian woman, has children, and lives in Cairo as a pious Sufi—and an eccentric European intellectual (64:46–67:57).
• Financial support via Western admirers and devotees; receives a house from a wealthy English follower.
• “He maintained an extensive correspondence. And this was like he—for hours every day he would deal with his correspondence. And through this way he was organizing the Western traditionalist elite...” (69:10)
• Increasing paranoia, magical attacks, and withdrawal in his final years. Has little real influence on local Egyptian Islam; as Rey comments, “...in some paradoxical way, it seems that he wasn’t very interested in Islam.” (72:12)

10. Legacy, Paranoia, and the Upcoming Schisms

• Dies in 1951, paranoid and somewhat isolated, leaving his study “exactly as it was” so he could see his family after death (75:05).
• Sets up the backdrop for conflicts within the traditionalist movement—future episodes to explore the power struggles between Guénon’s main followers: Frithjof Schuon and Julius Evola.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Traditionalism’s view of history:
  “Everything is inverted in it. All the traditional values are inverted...eventually a new golden age will start where...proper hierarchies will be resurrected again. Which for those people meant something like a caste system.”
  — Co-host (07:26–07:59)

• On the occult scene:
  “What do you learn at occult school? Well, they, you know, they read occult books...This is what they called research, I guess.”
  — Co-host (28:51)

• On Blavatsky’s grift:
  “That’s a good grift, I got to say.”
  — Host (20:31)

• Guénon's chameleon identity:
  “He would say whoever understands the unity of traditions is not convertible to anything...there is nothing that implies the superiority of one traditional form over the other. What exists is merely reasons of spiritual convenience for you to choose.”
  — Co-host (67:58)

• Pointed skepticism:
  “It's really completely, I would say fake, whole movement.”
  — Co-host (09:02)

• On the theatricality of Western esotericism:
  “This is like when kids are playing around...Like I get to be King of Alexandria.”
  — Host (40:08–40:13)

• On Guénon's reputation:
  “For someone who was so obsessed with the mystical Orient, it seems he wasn’t very interested in Islam.”
  — Co-host (72:12)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Traditionalism: Refresher & Definition – 05:00–09:16
• Guénon's Early Life & Paris Occult Scene – 10:53–14:45
• Theosophy, Occult Organizations, and Blavatsky – 14:45–22:43
• Guénon, Papis, and Western Esotericism – 25:16–28:45
• Wild Tales of Occult Societies – 29:48–33:05
• Fake Initiations & Masonic Drama – 32:23–39:48
• Guénon's Religious Transformations – 39:48–60:03
• After the War: Attempts to Anchor Traditionalism in West/East – 45:45–51:06
• The Cairo Years & Guénon's Isolation – 64:12–73:04
• Legacy and Death – 75:04–77:07

Tone & Style

The hosts’ tone is irreverent, sardonic, and skeptical—well aware of the absurdities and pretensions rampant in the traditionalist and occult scenes. They oscillate between detailed, deadpan overview and wry asides (“What do you learn at occult school?”), never losing sight of how much of the movement relied on self-mythology, plagiarism, and the social cravings of bored elites.

Conclusion / Next Up

The episode closes with a look ahead to parts 2 and 3, which will focus on Guénon’s followers Frithjof Schuon and Julius Evola, as well as the intra-traditionalist conflicts that mark the movement’s later (and even stranger) years.

“This is like very occult stuff.” — Co-host (77:29)

This summary provides a comprehensive, structured, and engaging overview for those who haven’t listened, highlighting all the significant moments, insights, and the distinct skeptical tone of the show's hosts.