Can My Business Survive Without a Partnership?

Summary

The EntreLeadership Podcast: Can My Business Survive Without a Partnership?

Episode Release Date: March 24, 2025
Host: Dave Ramsey, Ramsey Network

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of The EntreLeadership Podcast, host Dave Ramsey delves into the intricacies of business expansion without entering into partnerships. Drawing from real-life listener calls and his extensive experience as a CEO and leadership coach, Ramsey provides actionable insights for business owners grappling with growth strategies. The episode features in-depth discussions with listeners Rudy and Isaac, as well as a special segment with Kim from the Babylon Bee, offering a multifaceted perspective on leadership, hiring, and overcoming business challenges.

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Listener Call with Rudy: Navigating Business Expansion

Rudy's Dilemma: Should He Merge or Hire?
[01:11] Rudy, a small business owner from Ohio, seeks advice on whether to expand his taxidermy supply manufacturing business through mergers or by hiring additional sculptors. With annual revenues of $4.3 million and 26 employees, Rudy faces the challenge of integrating skilled artists into his company.

Dave Ramsey's Insight: Avoid Partnerships, Opt for Hiring
Dave Ramsey counters Rudy's consideration of mergers by emphasizing the pitfalls of partnerships.

“The only ship that doesn’t sail is a partnership.” [02:38]

Ramsey advises against merging, highlighting potential conflicts and loss of control. Instead, he advocates for hiring talented sculptors, ensuring they remain employees rather than co-owners. This approach maintains business stability and avoids the complexities that come with shared ownership.

Addressing Emotional Challenges
Rudy reveals the emotional strain following his father's passing, who was the main sculptor and a 17-time world champion. Ramsey empathizes with Rudy's loss and underscores the importance of replacing such a key figure with the right talent.

“Hospital loss a dad, you lost a legend.” [06:25]

Ramsey encourages Rudy to view the hiring process as an opportunity to bring in passionate individuals who want to focus on their craft without the burdens of business management. This strategy not only fills the vacuum left by Rudy's father but also paves the way for sustainable growth.

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Special Segment: Kim from Babylon Bee on Free Speech and Business Challenges

Introducing Kim and the Babylon Bee
In a notable segment, Kim, the CEO of the Babylon Bee, discusses the challenges her satire site faces amidst cultural and political battles over free speech. Babylon Bee, known for its Christian and conservative satire, has navigated significant hurdles, including platform censorship and legal battles.

The Impact of Platform Policies on Business
Kim explains how changes in social media policies, especially on Facebook and Twitter (now X), have threatened their content dissemination.

“We were trying to speak truth to a post-truth culture using humor.” [27:50]

These platforms began labeling their satire as misinformation, leading to demonetization and deplatforming threats. Kim highlights the tension between creative expression and institutional control, emphasizing the need for businesses to adapt while maintaining their core values.

Legal Battles and Free Speech Advocacy
Kim details Babylon Bee's legal efforts to combat restrictive laws, such as California's ban on political satire and parody. Partnering with organizations like Alliance Defending Freedom, Babylon Bee fights to preserve their right to free expression.

“They fight speech is being abridged, where you have freedom of religion issues and rights are being infringed upon.” [38:14]

Ramsey commends Kim's resilience and strategic approach to overcoming censorship, reinforcing the importance of standing firm in one's principles while navigating legal and operational challenges.

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Listener Call with Isaac: Handling Fraudulent Insurance Practices

Isaac's Crisis: Dealing with Insurance Fraud
Isaac, from Minnesota, shares a troubling experience where his moving company lost employees and discovered fraudulent Certificates of Insurance (COIs) from their insurance broker. This deception left them uninsured during a significant incident, resulting in $32,000 in damages.

Ramsey's Response: Taking Aggressive Action
Dave Ramsey responds by urging Isaac to confront the fraudulent broker head-on.

“Write a $32,000 check real fast or you're going to sue you like you've never sued.” [51:00]

Ramsey advises Isaac to hold the broker and the affiliated insurance agency accountable, suggesting legal action and involvement of the insurance commissioner to address the fraud. He emphasizes the importance of not letting such deceit undermine the business's integrity and financial stability.

Rebuilding Trust and Moving Forward
Ramsey reassures Isaac that taking decisive action will not only rectify the immediate financial loss but also strengthen the business's resilience against future challenges.

“Better a weary warrior than a quivering critic. This world needs more high-quality leaders, so take courage and lead.” [52:15]

Isaac acknowledges the severity of the situation and expresses determination to pursue justice and reinforce his company's foundation.

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Key Insights and Takeaways

1. Avoid Partnerships When Possible: Partnerships can lead to loss of control and increased complexity. Hiring instead of merging ensures business stability and clear leadership.

2. Emotional Resilience in Leadership: Personal loss and business challenges require leaders to maintain emotional strength and strategic focus to drive growth.

3. Navigating Free Speech in Business: Businesses like Babylon Bee demonstrate the importance of standing firm in one's values amid external pressures and censorship.

4. Handling Fraud and Legal Challenges: Swift and aggressive action is crucial when dealing with fraud. Holding perpetrators accountable protects the business's financial health and reputation.

5. Leadership Growth: Dave Ramsey underscores the necessity for leaders to grow personally and professionally to enable their businesses to thrive.

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Conclusion

In this insightful episode, Dave Ramsey provides nuanced guidance to business owners facing critical decisions about growth strategies and handling unexpected challenges. Through engaging listener calls and expert discussions, Ramsey highlights the importance of strategic hiring, emotional resilience, unwavering commitment to free speech, and decisive action against fraud. Whether you're contemplating expansion without partnerships or navigating complex legal landscapes, this episode offers valuable lessons for resilient and effective leadership.

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Notable Quotes

• Dave Ramsey on Partnerships:
  “The only ship that doesn’t sail is a partnership.” [02:38]

• Empathy for Loss:
  “You lost a dad, you lost a legend.” [06:25]

• On Free Speech and Humor:
  “We were trying to speak truth to a post-truth culture using humor.” [27:50]

• Responding to Fraud:
  “Write a $32,000 check real fast or you're going to sue you like you've never sued.” [51:00]

• Leadership Perseverance:
  “Better a weary warrior than a quivering critic. This world needs more high-quality leaders, so take courage and lead.” [52:15]

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This episode of The EntreLeadership Podcast serves as a crucial resource for business leaders seeking to navigate the complexities of growth, maintain integrity, and uphold strong leadership in the face of adversity.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

Hey, business owners, today is the day to pre order our new book build a business you love. Reserve your copy from the Ramsey store and get more than $350 in bonuses for free. Go to entreeleadership.com build or click the link in the show notes from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions. This is the Entree leaders podcast where I take calls from leaders like you about what it takes to win at any stage of business and leadership. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host with over 30 years of experience leading in the trenches right alongside you. If you want to submit a question, go to entreeleadership.com ask or leave us a voicemail at 844-94410. Thank you for joining us, America. We're glad you're here. All right, Rudy is going to start us off in Ohio. Hi, Rudy, how are you? I'm good, thanks.

[Rudy]

How about you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up in your world?

[Rudy]

So I am the owner of a small business that manufactures taxidermy supplies and we're currently doing 4.3 million a year in revenue with 26 employees. And my question is, in order to expand the business and grow, should we acquire other sculptors in our industry in the form of a merger?

[Dave Ramsey]

So you've got someone that knows how to do taxidermy. That's a one man show. Why would you have to acquire them? Why don't you just hire them?

[Rudy]

In our industry, if you excel at taxidermy, eventually you get into making the products that tax commercial use and consume. And eventually that leads to where everybody's kind of like me and we start our own business manufacturing that kind of stuff. And so it's, it's difficult because there's multiple people out there that you know are doing kind of the same thing as us. And it's, it's hard to talk them out of kind of their dream of doing the same type of thing and come work for us.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, what do you think a merger is? It's the same thing. We're just giving it a different name.

[Rudy]

I just, it's, it's one of those things where as long as they felt like they still had a part of it where one hand was on the wheel, I didn't know if it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, you're going to give them a ownership position.

[Rudy]

Yeah. And I know you say the, the only ship that doesn't sail is a partnership, but in our industry, because it's such a unique skill, I didn't know if there was ever exceptions to the rule because how difficult it is to, you know, find other people like us.

[Dave Ramsey]

Listen, if they want to work for themselves that bad, you're going to end up with three or four heads on this monster.

[Rudy]

Right?

[Dave Ramsey]

Something with three heads is a monster and it's not going to function well. And especially if you've got people that are a little bit artistic, let's just throw in a little drama, right?

[Rudy]

That's true. No, that's fair.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, I personally would not do that because I think it's gonna. You know, you're giving up so many things here in order to just get some talent on board. I would rather just pay them more than give up ownership, position and control and create drama. And you know, there's different ones out there get tired of. So here's the thing. A lot of practitioners in any kind of technical or artistic field, for instance, let's just say graphic artist, okay, they love doing the graphic arts, but they don't like running the business to get to do the graphic arts. They don't like going and getting new customers. They don't like the billing, they don't like the dealing with the customer. They just want to do the actual graphic art production. And I suspect you probably got some solopreneurs out there in your world that are tired of dealing with a customer. They're tired of the billing, they're tired of trying to source the, you know, the materials to do the thing. They just want to actually do the sculpting and they wish somebody else would take the rest of it. Am I wrong?

[Rudy]

No, that's true. And honestly, I'm probably reaching deeper than I ever thought I would. Cause it's. Recently my father passed away and he was our main sculptor while I ran the business. And so I'm in a position where as. As much as I would have liked to, I didn't get the opportunity to learn what I needed to from him. And so I can, I can work my way around things, but I would never call myself a sculptor. I was more like apprenticing. So we've built a successful business, but now we're kind of don't have a way of growing it until I can get more time to. To.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, until you get someone hard to replace what he was doing.

[Rudy]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm sorry, man. How old was he?

[Rudy]

He was 62. He was a 17 time world champion sculptor.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow. And so he was legendary in your world?

[Rudy]

Yeah, in our, in our industry. He was the, the best that there was. And that's. I mean it sounds biased because it's coming.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, I Mean, that sounds. It sounds like that's true. So. Yeah. So you not only lost a dad, you lost a legend. Yeah. Wow. I'm sorry. That hurts. Yeah, that's going to make. If you're not careful, your broken heart is going to cause you to do something to gather somebody in that you don't want to do. I think honestly, any idea, whatever you were paying him was probably not enough.

[Rudy]

True.

[Dave Ramsey]

Based on what you're telling me, he probably wasn't taking enough out of the business. You and he owned it together, I assume.

[Rudy]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Okay. So I think you're going to give up a chunk of your profits to get a world class person to come into his seat. But listen to me, think about it from the. Put the shoes on the other side. You got a young guy out there that's really, really good and he gets the opportunity to step into a legend's shoes. That's the position you're hiring for. I think that's pretty attractive. You get to work. You get to work in the shop with the tools that the legend used to work with.

[Rudy]

Now that is true.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's a big deal.

[Rudy]

Would you have any, any advice on the guys that are burnout, you know, still trying to do it on their own?

[Dave Ramsey]

I think they're gonna. I think they're gonna want this job. I think they want this job because they're.

[Rudy]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, that your dad did not like doing the stuff that you do. You run the business. You were a godsend to your dad because it allowed him to get. Do what he loved, which was sculpting. He hated the other part of this business. You do.

[Rudy]

Yeah, he. Anything that was paper, he didn't touch it like it was.

[Dave Ramsey]

You got it. I know who he is. I know this guy and what a wonderful guy. And let me just tell you, there's lots of him out there that are not as good as him and there'll never be another him. But there are people that think like him and they're sick of doing the touch. They don't want to touch paper. And they're having to. They're having to do the billing, they're having to answer emails and customers are almost a bother to them.

[Rudy]

So in your opinion, should we still maybe look at doing, just acquiring these people?

[Dave Ramsey]

No, I would just hire them. I would just hire them or buy them out. I mean, if you want to give them some money and buy them out too. If it's a buyout package, I'm going to buy your business and you're going to Work for me, and you're not going to have to do any of the crap anymore. And you get to be in the shop where the Legend was, using the Legend's tools. This is pretty appealing. And if you want to give them a percentage of profits, that's fine, but you don't give them ownership, and you don't have to come to them to make decisions. You own it. They don't want to own it, man. I'm telling you. They want them to do the sculpting. If you get the right one, if you get somebody that wants to do it, that's not your guy. But it's not a merger. It's a purchase, and it's not an ownership position. I'll give you a percentage of. Of the net profit on the work that you do, and I'll give you a great salary, and I'll give you some money up front to buy you out. If you've got some money, you have some cash to do that with.

[Rudy]

Yeah, yeah. No, we've been very blessed over the years.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. See, I think you're. Because of your loss and the part of your heart that's broken, which just makes you a good man. I, um. It. It's keeping you from realizing how much of an attractive situation you have for someone out there. It's very attractive. And that's what I would tell you to go do, man, as soon as you can. You're a good guy and you run a great business. I mean, you're doing $4.3 million in taxidermy. I mean, who does that? You. Who wants to be involved in that? In a legend's seat, everyone. That's what I'm telling you. This is the Entree leadership podcast.

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[Dave Ramsey]

If you want to grow your business in 2025, then you gotta grow as a leader first. I realized many years ago the problem with my business is the guy in my mirror, if he doesn't grow, the business doesn't grow. And that's why over 2,300 small business leaders have already RSVP'd for the Entree Leadership Summit. It's May 18 to 21 at the fabulous Gaylord resort in Denver, Colorado. You do not want to miss this. Platinum tickets are already sold out. Preferred seats are almost gone. The standard section's filling up fast. If you're ready to scale your business with us at Summit, you need to get your tickets today. To join us, go to entreeleadership.comsummit right now or click the link in the show notes. If you're listening on the YouTube or podcast, Kim is with us in Pensacola, Florida. Hi, Kim.

[Kim]

Hey.

[Isaac]

Thank you for taking my call. Sure. My daughter and I, we own an electrical supply business that my dad started in 1973. She's the president, I'm the CEO. We have six locations. We're about 95 employees right now, and our gross annual revenue last year was 55 million.

[Rudy]

Wow.

[Isaac]

Good for you. We have an amazing team that we owe it all to for sure. My problem is about four months ago, we had a mass exodus. We lost 12 employees, nine of them in one single day from the same branch that we work at. I mean, we're here every single day with these people and see them. And the ringleader of this exit, he text us that evening after hours and told us that he was leaving immediately. And these other people were going with him. After they got their Christmas bonus, they made sure to wait for that. We're a family business and it kind of caught us really by surprise. And we. We've realized as the months have passed that they did us a favor. But my customers are still feeling kind of hurt and a little bit betrayed by them. And our employees feel that Way as well. And I just didn't know if you had any words of wisdom to kind of help get us through this just betrayal that we feel. And I beat myself up because it's like, I've worked with these people every single day. How did I not see this fixing happen?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. When I look back on stuff like that, I do the same thing. I'm like, you know how stupid that guy is, how crooked that guy is? And you know what's worse? I hired him. How stupid does that make me? Oh, worse than that. I kept him. I didn't see all of this. What is wrong with me? Is that what you're thinking? That's what I think pretty much.

[Isaac]

Yeah, exactly. Like, how did I not notice this?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. How did I miss out that this guy's an absol crook? I mean, what kind of jerk wad walks out cold and takes a whole bunch of people with him without ever raising a concern, right? I mean, and how dumb am I that I allow someone to be in my midst and I don't even realize that? I must be the most naive person on the planet.

[Isaac]

Exactly. He was one of our, like, our managers, you know, he was one of the head roles.

[Dave Ramsey]

He's a bad dude, though.

[Isaac]

You know, this is a person that's a horrible character.

[Dave Ramsey]

Horrible character. So first thing I have to do, and sometimes I have to do it every morning. I'm just being a little real with you, is I have to forgive myself for not being a good enough leader to catch that I had a crook in my midst.

[Isaac]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

You gotta forgive yourself. You're not God. You're not clairvoyant. You can't tell everything about everybody. Some people are pathological liars. They're so good at it. They have such a talent at being an absolute crook that even the best of us can't catch them.

[Isaac]

Right?

[Dave Ramsey]

You got to forgive yourself.

[Isaac]

I know.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I got to do that. I got to tell you. I could tell. I can. I have faces coming in front of my face right now as we're talking about this. I don't like this. I don't like this conversation. It makes me mad at me. But part of doing business is sometimes when you dance, you look foolish, but dance anyway, Right? Sometimes it hurts when you love, but love anyway. Sometimes people screw you when you're good to them, but be good to them anyway. It's the Mother Teresa mantra. And really, it's the only way to operate. It's the way your dad operated. It's the way you've operated and you're not gonna change the way operate because somebody was a crook or because somebody was a misbehavior. A person of low character, of low moral fiber got into our midst. And it pisses me off and it hurts me, but it's part of having $95 million in revenue. It's part of having. Or what was $55 million in revenue? 95 employees.

[Isaac]

95. That would be great.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. It'd be great if that happened. Yeah. It wouldn't make me mad at all. 55 with 95 employees. Right? Yeah.

[Isaac]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's price of admission to get to be you. And you got a good life and you got a good business, and you're good people, and you're good to your people. And honestly, there's only about three or four people on the planet that care that this happened. And you're one of them.

[Isaac]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And a year from now, no one will be thinking about this unless it's you. Because I guarantee you, Mr. No character isn't thinking about it. He's a twerp. Yeah, he's a twerp. He moved on. A person of class would have come in and said, I have these problems, and if we can't solve them, I don't want to stay. A person of class would have come in and said, I've got a much better offer at the competitor. You guys have been good to me. I want to give you proper notice, and I'm going to leave and go to the competitor. A person of class wouldn't poach employees from a former place they used to work when they were a leader at that other place. Right, but people are class. Some people don't have class. I've had people leave here and come back and try to steal our people. And when they steal them, I always say, head out. Good for you. Remember, Ramsey has a rule. We don't rehire.

[Seth Dillon]

Right?

[Isaac]

Oh, yes, definitely.

[Dave Ramsey]

So when you're gone, make sure the door hits you good and hard in the butt as you leave.

[Isaac]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Cause that'd be the last time. And I'm not mad about it, but it's just a fact. And then, you know, then Mr. Low character goes broke, and they come crawling back over here. Want to be rehired? Doesn't happen. Don't rehire them. Because the same reason you left is the same reason I'm not hiring you again.

[Isaac]

Exactly. I would never take them back.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. So they're gone. They're just gone. They're in the rearview mirror. The rearview mirror is small. The Windshield's bright and it's in front of you. So I might just call an all hands meeting and just say all this out loud.

[Isaac]

Right. And we kind of did, you know, we really kind of got everybody together. And I think people are starting to. The first. About the first month was really hard because, I mean, our employees really felt it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Isaac]

It hurt them, like, well, why did. You know? Why did, you know they do this to us? Exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

They feel kind of like you said.

[Isaac]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So I've had people hear the same exact situation here over the years. And, you know, I can't believe they would do that and dishonor this place.

[Isaac]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Dishonor all the hard work that we did together. I thought this was my friend.

[Isaac]

Exactly. I feel like if that's the integrity that they had, we didn't need them anyway.

[Dave Ramsey]

Absolutely. Good riddance. I'm really glad they're gone. But all I'm saying out loud is it does hurt. It does make you mad, and it does make you lose a little chunk of your confidence in yourself. That just makes you human. It just makes you human. And I don't have a quick answer that makes all that hurt go away fast.

[Isaac]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Other than to go, okay, rule number one, we're glad they're gone. Rule number two, we're gonna move on. We're not quitting. Cause they did. That's for sure. You know, Rule number three, we're gonna communicate with the team, and then we're just gonna say out loud and admit, yes, this hurts, and yes, it causes me to lose a little bit of my confidence. But none of that's enough to make me quit. I'm just a little tougher. I'm just a little more wise than I was before. I might be a little bit even, you know, more negative, But I'm gonna be careful. You know, I'm not gonna. It's not gonna. This emotion's not gonna own me. It's not gonna redefine me. It's their problem, not mine. And, you know, you just gotta lay it where it goes and then keep moving. But I think it's fair to say for those of us that run small businesses, this type of stuff, this type of betrayal is one of the most hurtful things that happens to us emotionally. Losing a little bit of money is not nearly this hard, is it?

[Isaac]

Oh, definitely not.

[Dave Ramsey]

Making a stupid mistake in accounting and looking up, oh, we're $10,000 short. Cause we screwed something up. That doesn't hurt near as bad. Pisses you off, but not near as bad as this does.

[Isaac]

Exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Isaac]

Well, I appreciate it very much.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's. Do I sound like what your dad would have said?

[Isaac]

Yeah, pretty much. He may probably would have threw some other words in there. But yeah, we're on public radio here, so.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, it's.

[Isaac]

Some of these people worked for him way back when. I mean, these are long people that have been here a while, some of them. So it's kind of like they did it to him, which was they do it to disrespect me or whatever. I'm fine. But to do it felt like they did it to him, which is like even more personal.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly. But they got to look at themselves in the mirror and it's an ugly picture.

[Isaac]

Right. You're right. You're right.

[Dave Ramsey]

I would just let em go as best you can. Sometimes again. Sometimes you gotta do it every morning.

[Isaac]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Some mornings you wake up and their faces are in your dadgum mind floating around and you gotta clear em out for you. Go do something positive. But time does heal this stuff too. The further distance get away. And when you get em replaced with people that are better than they were.

[Isaac]

Oh yeah, that's where we're headed now.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. That's also the ultimate revenge, Right. You know, God gives you a replacement, that's an upgrade, right? Yeah. And that's where it takes you. I'm sorry, Kim. I wish you hadn't gone through that, but I got bad news. You're probably gonna go through it again. I wish I could say it's only once around here in 30 years. It wasn't. It's more than once now. I never had 12 at one time under one person. Being that I've not had that. But I have had individuals completely betray us and let us down and steal from us and everything else. And it just is heartbreaking and maddening and all of those things. It's just real. And after you were good to them and you, you know, after all I've done for you, that's kind of what runs through your head. But that's just part of it. And that's also very true. So mean. So mean. Wow. Some people's children. This is the Entree leadership podcast.

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[Dave Ramsey]

Entree Leadership Podcast Dateline Anaheim, California financial guru Dave Ramsey sprang out of a shopping mall fountain today to scold a woman who had frivolously wasted an entire quarter on a wish. Young people these days have no idea how important it is to save every cent, a drenched Ramsay told the embarrassed quarter thrower. You carelessly threw away an entire 25 cents into water for a so called wish. What kind of an investment is a wish? You should wish for your quarterback sweetheart. This is pure financial carelessness. I do applaud you for using cash though. According to sources, Ramsey had used a snorkel to stay under water. Water for hours until the unsuspecting woman rashly tossed her coin in. Obviously this never happened, but it's hilarious. And it's from our friends at the Babylon Bee. If you don't know who the Babylon Bee is, what cave are you living in? You should definitely be checking out the Bee. It is hilarious satire, sometimes more brutal than others. I've been blessed that the ones picking on me are not that brutal. They're just cute and funny. But some of my friends, they don't come away so unscathed. These guys do a great job. One of the speakers at our Entree Leadership Summit this year is the CEO of the Bee, the Babylon Beat, and his name is Seth Dillon. Seth and I have become friends over the last several years. He runs a great organization, has had some fabulous fights in the public eye, and I just wanted to get a minute to spend some time with him. Hey Seth, how are you my man?

[Kim]

I'm good, I'm good. And I don't know how obviously false that story was. It does sound like something you might say.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, say possibly. Yeah. Known for Hanging out in fountains with snorkels. No question about it. There's been some great ones over time, man. You guys. And the hilarious thing is my friend group in business ministry, other things all around the nation, they will send me, like, I'll get like 14 or 15 hits immediately by email. They're going, have you seen yourself on the Bee today? They're so proud that I made the bee. That means I've made it, right? So if the bee is picking on you in one sense or another, you've made it. So it's good stuff. The Babylon Bee is a satire site that's popular among Christians, conservatives. Anybody who loves good humor, good sarcasm, and like I said, Seth will be one of our speakers and teachers at the entree Leadership Summit, May 18th through the 21st in Denver. Now, I remember the bee before you and you came in, it was a couple of years old, right?

[Kim]

That's right, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Kim]

It was started in 2016 and I took it over in. It was started spring of 2016. I took it over in spring of 2018. So it was exactly two years old.

[Dave Ramsey]

Was it Adam? Was that the guy's name?

[Kim]

Adam Ford?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah. I remember meeting him one time a long, long time ago. And I mean, it was a baby little site. There was not much going on and he was just kind of poking out there, having fun. And you came in and took it over and actually made it, made it profitable.

[Kim]

Yeah, well, I mean, he did have an audience. So it was a WordPress blog format site. You know, he'd bought some template that allowed him to make this news looking website for a very low cost without a graphic designer or web developer or anything like that. And he and a couple of other people that he had invited into kind of this pitching group, this work group where ideas would be kind of tossed around. He called it the think tank. He had, he had invited some people in to pitch ideas and contribute. And so it was, it was kind of a volunteer driven, collaborative thing. That was the hope was that it would get off the ground and that it would spread like wildfire and that would grow. And it did. I mean, back at the time you're talking early 2016, Facebook didn't have a lot of the restrictions that they had that they later came to have. And so the content, you know, you put good content out there, even if it's a link to another website, it still had plenty of opportunity to go viral. And so the bee was going viral right out the gate. It caught my attention very, very early on. I was Seeing headlines like, you know, holy Spirit unable to move through congregation as fog machine breaks. And it shows this, you know, cloudy sanctuary where you can barely make out the stage and, and, and stuff like that was going around and I was seeing it, I was like, man, this is really, really funny stuff. It's, it's not cheesy, it's insightful. Often it's, it's directed at the church in a very introspective and self deprecating way, which I thought was healthy.

[Dave Ramsey]

Lot of skinny jeans. A lot of skinny jeans on the worship pastor jokes.

[Kim]

Worship pastor jokes, bass player. Yeah, all that stuff. And as a kid who grew up in the church myself, you know, I, I was a pastor's kid, so I'm not a kid anymore, unfortunately, but grew up as a pastor's kid in the church with behind the scenes knowledge of how the church works. The humor really spoke to me and I just wanted to get involved. Honestly, my first thought was, I wish I had started this thing myself. But when I ended up talking with Adam about it, he was looking to exit and I was wanting a way in. And so we worked a deal out in early 2018. That's when I took it over and decided this had plenty of opportunity to become a business. I didn't know the first thing about running a satire site. Who does but. Or how to monetize the traffic.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, how'd you monetize it? What was the first thing you did to get some money coming in the door?

[Kim]

Well, one of the first things that we did, so we already, we had, we had Google Ads on the site. And this was one of Adam's concerns initially was that we had all of our eggs in the big tech basket where you drive traffic through Facebook. That was 90 plus percent of our traffic was Facebook. And then 90% of our revenue or more. 100% of revenue at the start was Google Ads just placed on the site. They show this programmatic random display ads on your site. You get paid when they get enough impressions and people click on them. And so that was how it was initially monetized. And that would pull in some money from the traffic that was hitting the site. We were actually doing well with traffic, so it was generating enough revenue to cover the small cost that it had early on. But in order to grow it into a business, we needed more than that. So one of the first things that we did was launch. Essentially it was like a Patreon model, a subscription model where people could pay to support the bee and a small amount. And then we tried to find ways to layer on some benefits to that so that you weren't just donating money to us. We were actually giving you something in response. And so we launched a subscription platform pretty early on and offered some things like a headline pitching forum where you can actually collaborate with our team and get your headlines published on the Babylon beef. You know, like that's, that's one of the things that you can do is engage with him and see the behind the scenes, the inner workings of how we do this creative process and contribute to it. And a lot of people thought it was kind of funny, actually. People were paying us to do our job for us was the joke. But, but it was a cool opportunity actually to get involved in the creative process and pitch ideas. Plus we had, you know, forums and, and the ability to do comments and, and turn off the ads and all of that stuff that we layered in there too. So subscriptions was a big piece of the monetization puzzle initially.

[Dave Ramsey]

So I think I picked it up on Twitter in the early days of Twitter. So you're saying it was almost exclusively on Facebook?

[Kim]

Initially we had a presence on Twitter. We didn't have as big of a following and we weren't going as viral there back then. I mean, on Facebook the virality was insane. We could post an article, we did one about how a motorcyclist identified as a bicyclist and set a world record. And that, that got shared I don't know how many tens of thousands of times, maybe over 100,000 times on Facebook. And it drove, you know, millions and millions of visits to the site. Like the kind of traffic that would crash the server and the site would stop working like we were generating from Facebook. So Twitter, we still did well there. But Twitter is not, it's still even in its present day form as X. Our content does very well there in terms of getting reposts and likes, but it doesn't drive traffic to the site at the same rate that Facebook used to in the glory days.

[Dave Ramsey]

Right, right. Now in the old days before Twitter became X, before Musk bought it, they and Facebook went through a. Well, I mean, since 2020, really, up until just the recent, recent memory went through the cancel culture process where anything Christian, anything conservative, anything gun related, anything funny had to be banned and you guys got tossed from all those sites. Right.

[Kim]

I mean, it started with fact checking, you know, jokes that were getting rated false because they were misinformative and, and these platforms are trying to crack down on the spread of misinformation you had the, the first one that really hit us on Facebook was a joke that we did about cnn. The headline was, CNN purchases industrial sized washing machine to spin the news before publishing it. And it's a, it's a silly joke. Like, it's not even. Like you didn't even laugh. Thank you. But it's like it's kind of a dumb joke, obviously. No, there's no way someone could use a washing machine to spin the news before. Like, that doesn't even make sense. It's just a CNN bias joke. Facebook was working with Snopes as a third party fact checker to make sure that misinformation didn't spread on the platform. And Snopes rated that joke false. And then Facebook threatened to demonetize and deplatform us if we kept spreading fake, false news on their platform. We're like, but that's what satire is, you idiots.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, really good.

[Kim]

Yes. Gracious. It was a little bit. It was touch and go there for a while because we kept getting these threats on various platforms for the, for spreading misinformation. And then of course, the media picked up on. It was like, you know, these guys are trafficking and misinformation under the guise of satire. Those are the exact words of the New York Times. And so that's how they were trying to characterize us because they didn't like the jokes that we were telling, they didn't like the targets of our jokes. And so this was speech that they wanted to try to restrict. And one of the ways to go after it without just censoring us for no reason because they didn't like us was to say, well, you're contributing to false beliefs with your misinformation. And so that was, that was really one of the first things that we bumped up against. And then it shifted and morphed into this conversation about policies aimed at preventing hate speech or hateful conduct. And so, you know, if you make fun of a protected group or individual, you know, that falls into a protected class, you are, in their view, punching down. You're, you're, you're bullying someone who's marginalized and oppressed from a position of power, and you shouldn't be allowed to do that. And so all of these things became off limits for comedy. Even when you had a situation where you might be joking about someone who's like a high ranking government official, but they happen to be transgender, well, that's considered punching down because they're in a marginalized class. We're like, well, wait a minute. These are the institutions. The cultural and institutional power is pushing these ideas on the culture. We're pushing back on them by joking about them. And you're saying that we're punching down at the marginalized and the oppressed. Like, we're actually punching back, if anything, punching up at the cultural and institutional power. So there was that whole debate that played out, but that's how we ended up in Twitter jail. We got suspended on Twitter and in 2022 and caught the attention of Elon Musk with that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that was one of the things. I mean, a lot of us got thrown off of different platforms for saying anything serious about not necessarily the Rainbow World, but Covid. If you went anywhere on Covid other than the prescribed Fauci narrative, then you were evil and you weren't following the science, and you were an ignorant redneck.

[Kim]

Or whatever, and you had to be tossed harmful misinformation. That was the justification for. For tossing you off. And I actually testified before Congress on this topic, and I mentioned Covid because Covid was one of these examples where they were saying they were trying to justify their censorship after the fact by saying, well, we censored based on what we knew at the time. And when I hear that, I'm like, wait a minute. So you're acknowledging that knowledge changes over time? Okay, if knowledge changes over time, then that means whatever you're censoring right now, you might learn it's true. Tomorrow, you think it's misinformation. Today it might come out to be true tomorrow. Tomorrow you shouldn't censor it, because then it's going to come out that you actually censored the truth. And so if it's true that knowledge changes over time, then we should never arbitrarily decide at any given moment, especially when dealing with scientific, you know, topics, these health issues, that what's currently the prevailing narrative is the only thing that's sayable. Otherwise, we'll never be able to get to the truth because we can't debate it, which is the fastest and best way to get to the truth. And so.

[Dave Ramsey]

And we can't laugh up this absurdity of some of your positions.

[Kim]

Right, Exactly. But Covid was a great illustration of how it was. It's really a knockdown argument against censorship. The fact that knowledge changes over time means you should let people debate the issues and. And not decide preemptively what's true and what. What's sayable.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, because one thing we learned was the medical community didn't learn Math while they were in school. Yeah. So for sure. So speaking of punching up lawsuit in California, they banned political satire and parody. I guess they passed a law and then you sued them.

[Kim]

Yeah, it was crazy.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're not allowed to laugh in California anymore, Is that what we're saying?

[Kim]

Well, it was like they tried to make it somewhat narrowly tailored so they weren't just banning comedy altogether. But. But it was. It was. It was Newsom's response, Gavin Newsom's response to a parody video that was done about Kamala Harris, you know, in the lead up to the election. It was. It was stuffing words in her mouth. It was like AI generated. It was labeled parody, and it was pretty funny. But, you know, Gavin responded to it saying, this needs to be illegal. And so he. He kind of streamlined and fast tracked this bill that would make it unlawful to satirize, you know, these politicians to elections. It was not our video. It was someone else's video. But we do content like that ourselves. And so what was being applied. The law was being drafted and passed to apply to content like that, which, of course, would have applied to our content as well. And what it would have done is it would have insulated these. These figures from criticism when, you know, the public is. Has every right under the First Amendment to. To criticize public figures and politicians. And it also would have, you know, censored and suppressed our speech. We would have had to worry about whether or not a joke that we were going to tell was going to run afoul of the law and result in fines and whatever. And so maybe we would start censoring ourselves at chill speech. And so, yeah, we. We fought against every opportunity that we've had. When something like that happens, we have immediately filed a lawsuit to try to prevent it. And. And in this case, you know, we had a great success there, where the law got blocked.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And, man, your legal bills must be unbelievable.

[Kim]

No, they're not, actually, because generally speaking, when. When these issues come up, there are pro bono law firms that are happy to take the case. In this case, we had Alliance Defending Freedom representing us. And. And they do that for free. You know, they. They are happy to help in cases where speech is being abridged, where you have freedom of religion issues and. And rights are being infringed upon. They will represent clients like us at no cost, using donations from people that support their.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, they're itching for that fight always. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they are.

[Kim]

So they're great. They're great allies in this. It means that we're able to fight back without having to bankrupt ourselves.

[Dave Ramsey]

When you took this over, you thought, hey, we're gonna poke some fun at people, we're gonna make, we're gonna laugh and we're gonna make people giggle and we're gonna make a little money and have some fun. And it turns into this culture war thing, doesn't it?

[Kim]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

You didn't see that coming, did you?

[Kim]

No. I mean, you don't expect, like when you're setting out to just do comedy and make people laugh. We, there are, there are two points to it. We're trying to make people laugh. We're also trying to make them think. And so a lot of the headlines that we, that we produced, the jokes that we were producing, were convicting, challenging, you know, ridiculing things that needed to be ridiculed. And so that can be very controversial. And so there is, there's always going to be controversy that comes with that to some extent. But the, but the broader culture war and the, not just the war on, there's the war on reality and reason and then, and then in truth, and then the war on speech and the ability to, to speak the truth. Those, those things we got caught up in simply because we're trying to speak truth to a post truth culture using humor, which I think is one of the most effective ways to do that. And, and so, you know, we were engaged in those fights for, to ridicule the bad ideas that we thought needed the ridicule, and then the infringement of our own ability to do that by these platforms that we're trying to say that you can't tell those jokes result in us being on the front lines of a battle for free speech in the public square. And so, you know, comedy was really kind of like this, this intersection of the tyrannical effort to stamp out dissent and the people having the most effective voice in that dissent hitting each other head on. And so that was not expected. No, it was not expected. But it's a fight that I, that I am perfectly willing to engage in because I think that we can win it. I think that we must win it. And I think that when you go after the comedians, you go after the humorists, and you try to take yourself so seriously as to not tolerate their humor, you look like a humorless scold, you look like a tyrant, and you only hurt your cause. And so I think we're blessed to be in a position where we're one of the most effective ones to do it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, definitely. So what size is the team at the Babylon Bee these days, we're up.

[Kim]

To about 40 people total involved in the business. That doesn't mean 40 writers. You know, the Bee is. Is more than just a writing team. We have, you know, we do E commerce stuff. So we have people involved in that. We have marketing people and customer support and. And video editing and. And graphic design and all of that. So we have a whole team, varied team, split between our two offices here in Florida, where I am, and in California, but around 40 involved at this point, either full or part time.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, good. Very cool. Good stuff. Hey, man, thanks for your time. We appreciate the stories. This is great stuff. We've been involved in a bunch of those similar fights. They weren't nearly as fun or funny or for good reason, but a whole bunch of people that decided they were going to not believe the narrative for one reason or another and not function based on that belief that, you know, we took some hits.

[Kim]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

New York Times headline, dave Ramsey's trying to kill his employees. Wow. Because we came back to work, which is kind of counterproductive, you know, to kill your own employees, so.

[Kim]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

But, yeah, apparently I did. So. But good news is we didn't lose a one, so that's great.

[Kim]

That's great.

[Dave Ramsey]

Very good stuff.

[Kim]

So it's. You say it's not as fun and funny. I mean, just imagine that when we file a lawsuit, we're including all of these jokes, as in the law. Like, our lawsuits are hysterical. Because if you go through, we cite all of these examples of these headlines and, you know, the things that the law would apply to. And so even the lawsuits themselves are entertaining.

[Dave Ramsey]

I can't imagine. I can imagine a judge reading through this, chuckling with his morning coffee.

[Kim]

Exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

This is great. These guys are out of their minds. This is so fabulous. So fun. Hey, I appreciate you joining us in May. I think you got a lot to say to small business leaders. You've grown a wonderful business there. You've fought some good fights. All of us that are in small business have to fight the fights. We also have to hire and we have to fire and we have to go through the whole process of creative anything, whether it's a heating and air company or a media company, it doesn't matter. So I think you got a lot to say to our folks when you come out to Denver in May. Looking forward to spending more time with.

[Kim]

Yeah, I'm looking forward to it, too. Thank you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Thanks for coming on. Ladies and gentlemen, this is the Entree Leadership Podcast. Platinum tickets to Entree Leadership Summit. Are officially sold out and preferred seats are almost gone. Which means you're running out of time to join me and 12 other of America's top leadership experts. And this is the best business conference in 2025. It's going to be May 18 through 21 in Denver at the fabulous Gaylord Resort. We're going to unpack the secrets to leveling up so you can transform the way you lead and scale your business like never before. To get your tickets before we run out, go to entreeleadership.com summit or click the link in the show notes if you're listening on YouTube or podcast. Thanks for joining us, America. We're so glad you're here. You're going to really enjoy Seth Dillon if you come to entree leadership. The guy's a blast. He is fun and funny and he's tough and a good business guy. So all of that goes together. Isaac is with us in Minnesota. Hi Isaac, how are you?

[Seth Dillon]

I'm doing well. Thank you for having me today.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure. What's up?

[Seth Dillon]

All right, so I am a 5050 partner in a moving company here in St. Cloud, Minnesota. We have about eight or nine employees on payroll, depending on the week. We have some part time guys. Last year's revenue was just about 550k, still in the treadmill operator stage. And my question for you today is how we should best proceed moving forward after our previous insurance provider has been providing fraudulent COIs to us and turns out we did not have General Liability Insurance COIs, certificates of insurance to the client that we work with.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Has something been. Have you got a claim against you now?

[Seth Dillon]

Yes. On January 6th this year we had one of our crews moving some clients in an apartment complex. Thankfully it was on the first floor, but they did bump a water sprinkler that was attached to a main water line and it caused about 30 to $31,000 of damage to the apartment and some units around the area.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And so the insurance company had given you a certificate of insurance that was fraudulent?

[Seth Dillon]

Not for this particular apartment complex. They didn't require one. But we have been giving them to all of our business, to business relationships.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so how does that affect this particular situation if you did not have a COI on this situation?

[Seth Dillon]

So we were going to file an insurance claim for the incident damage and it turns out we have been uninsured since 2023 despite paying for premiums for general liability and having COIs verifying that we have.

[Dave Ramsey]

But you did not have insurance. Okay. So the general liability should have covered this. Is that what you're saying?

[Seth Dillon]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Okay. And so the insurance company says what. What are they saying when you say you did not cover us when we gave you money to cover us? What's the deal? What did they say?

[Seth Dillon]

Yeah, our insurance broker basically told us a few weeks after the incident, when we did decide to go well, he first tried to convince us that it was a bad idea to file a claim and we might not get renewed and we just wouldn't be able to operate. And it turns out once we did decide we want to file the claim, that he said he, quote, made a big mistake and we haven't had general liability since 2023.

[Dave Ramsey]

So this is the broker that did this, Correct? It's not the insurance company, it's the broker.

[Seth Dillon]

Yeah, we've just been working with one agent.

[Dave Ramsey]

And is he. Is he a singular. Is he a solopreneur by himself?

[Seth Dillon]

I believe he is attached to company, but he's the only point of contact that we've had.

[Dave Ramsey]

He's a. But he's attached to a general agency, correct? Yeah. Who is liable for his behavior then? Have you talked to an attorney, Isaac?

[Seth Dillon]

I actually do have a family friend who is, you know, kind of giving us some guidance on the situation and how he should handle it. But, yeah, we have had a little talk with an attorney.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I think you go to your insurance brokers agency and say one of your brokers has misbehaved and you're about to write a $32,000 check, or we're going to file charges on all of you with the insurance commission and we're going to sue you and they're going to write a $32,000 check so fast, it's unbelievable. They don't want the insurance commissioner up there. They don't want the insurance commissioner up their butt. They really don't. On this, where they have fraudulently. You've got the pieces of paper showing that you had coverage that he never wrote. He completely fraudulently lied to you and stole money from you. The insurance commissioner is going to own them if you involve them here. The state of Minnesota insurance commissioner is not going to go be okay with this. Isaac, you follow me? It's a big deal. It's a big deal. Yeah. So they're going to eat somebody's lunch. And so, you know, I'm going to have. I'm going to hire an attorney and pay some money and they're going to pay my attorney's fees and they're going to pay $32,000. Or I'm going to sue them for millions and I'm going to turn the insurance commissioner loose on them for fraud. Yeah, I mean this is fairly open and shut. If I'm grasping the concepts, I may be missing something here, but if I'm grasping the concepts, you got them, dude. And he reports to somebody. What I'm making sure is that somebody in this loop has some money, is probably not the crook, but the crook probably works for somebody. Probably reports into a general agency who's liable for his behavior is my guess. That's what I'm betting on in this conversation. And you probably need something other than a family friend is a good guidance to give you some advice. But you need to get above this guy into his. Whoever he reports to, whoever is reliable for his actions and let them know that they're on the hook for my attorney's fees, which are now 10 grand because that was the retainer I had to put UP and the $32,000. And if you don't do that, we're going to sue you like you've never sued. We're going to make a hobby out of you people. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, he screwed you, dude. This is criminal. Possibly.

[Seth Dillon]

Yeah. It feels like we've been getting price gouged. We talk with other companies that are in our industry as well.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, you got price gouged because you gave them money and got nothing. You definitely got price gouged.

[Seth Dillon]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

You didn't have. You gave him money. He put the money in his pocket. Did not write the coverage. Right. Yeah. That's the ultimate price gouge. It's called fraud, man. So, yeah, you need to check some people up over there and you know I'm going to get very, very, very aggressive. And I forgot I made a mistake. Does not cover it. You don't. It wasn't accidental that he issued a certificate of insurance knowing there's not coverage. That's not accidental. That's not. I messed up. That's I'm a crook.

[Seth Dillon]

There's many for the various relationships we have with other businesses. So it's not like it was a one off coi that accidentally happened.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You know, the underlying policy was not there all along that the COIs would have come out of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oops. Oh, yeah. Oops. Write a $32,000 check real fast or you're going to be writing plus attorneys fees or you're going to get a visit from the insurance commission. So I got your oops yeah, because I don't believe it. I don't believe it. I don't think it was a mistake, do you?

[Seth Dillon]

It gets weirder and weirder the more we go down the rabbit hole.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Yeah. Usually where you find confusion, you find evil. They hang out together. They are best buddies. I'm sorry you're going through this, man. That's tough. When you got a $550,000 business, have a $32,000 hit, but it's not your hit. Go after them and you know you have a $32,000 bill you need to collect. And we're going to get aggressive about collecting that bill from the people that defrauded you. That's what it amounts to. Wow, man. What a mess. I'm so sorry. You're a good guy. Don't let this stop you. Keep fighting. Keep fighting, Keep fighting, keep fighting. I love it. Remember, better a weary warrior than a quivering critic. This world needs more high quality leaders, so take courage and lead. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thanks for listening to the Entree Leadership Podcast.