How to Pay off $4,000,000 of Debt in 5 Years (The 600th Episode)

Summary

The EntreLeadership Podcast: How to Pay off $4,000,000 of Debt in 5 Years (Episode 600)
Release Date: September 16, 2024
Host: Dave Ramsey, Ramsey Network

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Introduction

In the milestone 600th episode of The EntreLeadership Podcast, Dave Ramsey addresses complex financial challenges faced by business leaders. Drawing on over three decades of experience, Ramsey provides real-time, actionable advice to listeners grappling with substantial debt and ethical dilemmas in their businesses. This episode features two compelling listener calls, each presenting unique financial and operational hurdles.

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First Call: Managing Business and Personal Debt

Caller: Hunter from Dallas, Texas
Timestamp: [01:24] – [10:01]

a. Debt Overview

Hunter, co-owner of a coffee shop chain with approximately 100 employees, shares his financial predicament:

• Annual Revenue: $4.2 million (projected $5 million this year)
• Net Profit: 15% of revenue
• Household Income: $750,000 (including a $250,000 day job)
• Debt Breakdown:
  • Vehicle Loans: $270,000 across four vehicles (primarily personal)
  • SBA Loans: $1,000,000 spread over five loans
  • Personal Debts: $55,000 IRS debt, $1.9 million mortgage, $200,000 HELOC, $280,000 flip house debt

Hunter is uncertain about prioritizing the repayment of personal versus business-related debts.

b. Dave Ramsey's Advice

Ramsey emphasizes that all debts are technically personal since the SBA loans were signed personally. He proposes a strategic debt repayment plan focusing on minimalism and disciplined budgeting:

• Debt Snowball Method:
  Ramsey advises listing debts from smallest to largest and focusing on eliminating the smallest debts first to build momentum. For Hunter:

  • Step 1: Pay off the $270,000 vehicle loans within a year.
  • Step 2: Address the $1,000,000 in SBA loans over the next two and a half years.

• Budgeting and Financial Planning:
  Implement a strict budget to eliminate unnecessary expenditures. Hunter and his wife should live on the $250,000 household income, avoiding additional borrowing.

• SBA Loans Management:
  Keep business and personal debts separate for strategic repayment. Debt associated with the coffee shops should be managed distinctly from personal obligations.

Ramsey outlines a three-year plan:

1. Six Months: Eliminate vehicle debt.
2. Two and a Half Years: Clear SBA loans.
3. Three Years Total: Achieve debt-free status with the exception of the mortgage.

c. Expected Outcomes

By adhering to Ramsey's plan, Hunter can:

• Financial Freedom: Clear significant debts, enhancing cash flow.
• Business Growth: Utilize freed-up capital to open new stores without incurring additional debt.
• Sustainable Operations: Maintain a healthy financial environment, fostering business stability and growth.

Notable Quote:
Dave Ramsey at [06:30]:
"Let's pay it off in a year or less. And we're going to get on a budget. We're going to quit buying stuff unless we pay for it."

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Second Call: Ethical Challenges in Family Business Transition

Caller: Hunter from Huntsville
Timestamp: [15:36] – [30:30]

a. Current Business Situation

Hunter manages his father's plumbing company, which he plans to acquire upon his father's passing. The business has:

• Annual Revenue: $4.5 million
• Employees: 30
• Profit Margin: 6-8%

Hunter aims to transition to CEO within the next six to twelve months but faces ethical conflicts due to his father's questionable financial decisions.

b. Ethical Dilemmas

Hunter recounts an incident where his wife made an error in the benefits package billing. His father proposed back-charging employees for the mistake, a practice Hunter found unethical. Although they reached a compromise, Hunter's discomfort persists, questioning whether to continue operating under his father's ownership.

c. Dave Ramsey's Advice

Ramsey provides a multi-faceted approach to resolving the ethical and operational challenges:

• Set a Timeline for Ownership Transfer:
  Establish a definitive timeline (e.g., three years) to formalize the transfer of ownership, ensuring clarity and preventing ongoing dependence.

• Fair Compensation for Father:
  Propose a reasonable salary for his father (e.g., $100,000 annually with cost-of-living adjustments) to allow him to retire comfortably without drawing undue influence from the business.

• Formalize Agreements:
  Encourage Hunter to implement clear, written agreements outlining the transfer process and compensation to mitigate future conflicts and ensure smooth operations.

• Eliminate Ethical Conflicts:
  By transferring ownership promptly, Hunter can address and rectify the ethical issues, fostering a healthier business environment.

Notable Quote:
Dave Ramsey at [24:25]:
"What I'm looking to do is get transferred to you sooner rather than later. That's what I'm looking to do."

d. Outcome

Implementing Ramsey's recommendations would enable Hunter to:

• Ensure Ethical Operations:
  Remove his father from daily management, thereby eliminating unethical practices.

• Secure Ownership Transition:
  Formalize the transfer of ownership, providing Hunter with full control and preventing potential interference.

• Foster Business Sustainability:
  Create a stable and ethical foundation for the business's future growth and success.

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Dave Ramsey's Business Insights

Beyond listener questions, Ramsey delves into the foundational elements that drive successful businesses:

a. Mission Statement and Core Values

Ramsey underscores the importance of a clear mission statement and well-defined core values:

• Mission Statement:
  Clarifies the business's purpose beyond profit. For Ramsey Solutions, it's "to provide hope with common sense, education, and empowerment with biblically based principles."

• Core Values:
  Set the cultural and operational standards. Examples include:

  • Self-Employed Mentality: Employees act as owners, fostering responsibility and initiative.
  • No Gossip: Maintaining a positive and non-toxic work environment.
  • Momentum Theorem: Continuously driving forward progress and maintaining operational efficiency.

b. Purpose Over Profit

Ramsey emphasizes that while profit is essential, it should be a byproduct of serving customers well:

• Service-Driven Profit:
  A strong purpose leads to excellent service, which in turn generates profits.

• Avoiding Monetary Obsession:
  Focusing solely on money can lead to unethical practices and deteriorate customer relationships.

Notable Quote:
Dave Ramsey at [30:30]:
"Business is bigger than the bottom line… Money is the byproduct of doing good. When you serve your customers well, they give you profit."

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Conclusion

In this landmark episode, Dave Ramsey provides invaluable guidance for business leaders entangled in significant debt and ethical quandaries. By advocating for disciplined financial strategies and emphasizing the importance of mission-driven business practices, Ramsey equips entrepreneurs with the tools to achieve financial freedom and sustainable growth. Listeners are encouraged to take proactive steps in managing their business finances and fostering ethical, purpose-driven workplaces.

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Key Takeaways:

1. Prioritize Debt Repayment:
   Implement the debt snowball method to eliminate debts systematically, enhancing financial stability.

2. Separate Personal and Business Finances:
   Maintain distinct financial strategies for personal and business-related debts to streamline repayment and operational efficiency.

3. Define Mission and Core Values:
   Establish a clear mission statement and core values to guide business decisions and cultivate a positive company culture.

4. Address Ethical Concerns Promptly:
   Tackle ethical dilemmas head-on by formalizing ownership transitions and setting fair compensation structures.

5. Focus on Service Over Profit:
   Prioritize excellent customer service to naturally generate profits, ensuring long-term business sustainability.

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Notable Quotes:

• Debt Elimination:
  "We're going to pay it off in a year or less. And we're going to get on a budget. We're going to quit buying stuff unless we pay for it." – Dave Ramsey [06:30]

• Ethical Business Practices:
  "Business is bigger than the bottom line… Money is the byproduct of doing good." – Dave Ramsey [30:30]

• Mission Statement Importance:
  "Our mission statement clarifies who we are and who we aren't. So you and your team have clear direction for all your decision making." – Dave Ramsey [25:04]

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By following Ramsey's expert advice, business leaders can navigate financial challenges, foster ethical operations, and build resilient, purpose-driven organizations.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

From the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is the Entrez Leadership podcast, where I take calls from leaders like you about what it takes to win at any stage of business and leadership. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. With over 30 years of experience leading in the trenches, doing the same stuff you do every day, I do it too. This is not a theory show. This is a show about what we really do. Today's a big day. We're celebrating episode 600 of the Entree Leadership Podcast. I want to take a moment to say thank you to our listeners, to our viewers who tune in weekly, to our team who puts this together. They spend a lot of love and a lot of time making sure you guys get delivered good information. And thanks for your support over the years, all of you, everything we do in Entrez Leadership and for the podcast. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We love small businesses at Ramsey. We are one, and we love talking with you about what's going on with yours. If you've got a question, call me at 844-944-1070. That's 844-944-10 70. Or go to entreleadership.com/entreleadership.com/Hunter is in Dallas, Texas. Hi, Hunter. What's up?

[Hunter]

Hey, Dave.

[Paul]

How are you?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. What's up in your world?

[Hunter]

Hey.

[Paul]

My wife and I own some coffee shops. We have about 100 employees, and we did 4.2 million last year. And my question is, we have some SBA loans, we have some vehicle loans, and then we have some personal debt. And so we're just unsure which one is the priority to attack, personal or business. And what you would recommend.

[Dave Ramsey]

Hmm. Well, they're all personal. The SBA loans were signed personally, so technically, legally, they're all personal. I mean, we can separate them for discussion purposes between business and home. So you've got vehicle sba, and what was the other one?

[Paul]

Just personal debt on the business. Just SBAs and vehicles.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, okay. All right. So why is a coffee shop buying vehicles?

[Paul]

Well, we do some deliveries and things.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, okay.

[Paul]

And then we.

[Dave Ramsey]

We.

[Paul]

I mean, we do have our personal vehicles in there as well. We thought we were being smart, you know, write offs.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, you figured out it wasn't. Okay, so now what? How much debt do we have? On vehicles?

[Paul]

On vehicles, we have about 270,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

How many vehicles?

[Paul]

Four. The bulk of that is our personal vehicles. They're very expensive.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so, all right, you made 4.2. What was your net profit?

[Paul]

About 15% of that. And Then I have a day job as well, and I make about 250 doing that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so you're making 250 at your day job and then you made 500 on the coffee shops.

[Paul]

Yeah. And it's going to be more this year. We'll do about 5. 5 this year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so you got a $750,000 household income. Yes, last year. All right, and you owe 200 grand. Was it 250 on cars?

[Paul]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, and then the SBA loan was how much?

[Paul]

The SBA loans are about a million. They're all split up.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, how many different ones?

[Paul]

Five.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so they're a couple hundred each average.

[Paul]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And then you've got another. And then you've got other personal debt. You said. What is that?

[Paul]

I've got a mortgage. Well, right Now I have IRS debt of 55 that I'm going to have done in the next 30 days because that's bothering me. And then I have a mortgage of 1.9. I have a HELOC of 200. I have a flip house of 280. I got dead everywhere.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're a busy guy. You're flipping houses, running 11 coffee shops and have a full time job.

[Paul]

Yeah, something like that. My wife is busy. I started and she has to finish it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Okay. When's the flip house done?

[Paul]

Hopefully in the next 90 days and then we can get that sold.

[Dave Ramsey]

Stop that.

[Paul]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Quit doing that. Concentrate on your stinking business. You're making plenty of money with your business. Focus on the dance with the girl that brought you, man. All right, so, well, the first step to getting out of debt is deciding I don't want to borrow money ever again. And so if you haven't decided that, because so far the list you've given me is you've never met a debt you didn't like.

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So, yeah, the first step is you gotta go. I'm done. The way I've been doing this is driving me crazy. It's not bringing me peace. I make way too much money to feel this broke. Crap, man. You're even behind with the irs. That makes no sense at all. So have you got that fixed, by the way, so that that system so that the IRS gets paid on time from now on?

[Paul]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, good. Because you make a book who loads of money, Hunter, you're killing it. What do you do? What's your day job?

[Paul]

I'm a consultant. I develop commercial property across the country.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Wow, man, you're amazing. I'm so proud of your income. So what I would do is set the mortgage aside. It's what we call baby step six. If you call the Ramsey show, when you start talking about our financial stuff with Ramsey, we pay off the mortgage as a separate baby step. Okay? The IRS is gone. The flip house is gone as soon as it's gone. Okay, so we're down to mortgage, 1 million SBA and 250 on cars. Did I miss something?

[Paul]

No, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, Mortgage drops off to baby step six. And then what I would do is I would just list these cars, smallest to largest, and pay them off in that order. Doing a traditional debt snowball is what we would call it. Now, if you're making $750,000 a year, how f do you pay off $250,000 worth of cars, hopefully, in a year.

[Paul]

Or less.

[Dave Ramsey]

Or less, yeah. And hopefully is not a part. Doesn't start the sentence. Okay, we're going to pay this off making 750, for God's sakes. It leaves you a half million dollars. Okay. After you paid it off. Right. So we're going to pay it off in a year. We're going to pay it off in a year or less. Not hopefully. And we're going to get on a budget. We're going to quit buying stuff unless we pay for it. Okay. We're a budget at work, we're going to budget at home. And that's good. Just financial planning. It's good. You know, you're running good P&L's and stuff at work. You're projecting your profits and what you're going to do with them. And then I would separate off the SBA loans and leave them at work. And what we teach entree leaders to do with that kind of debt is a little different than the personal debt at home. And I would say. Okay, from the coffee shops. The SBA loans are all associated with the coffee shops, right?

[Paul]

That's correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so from the coffee shops, I'm making 4 or 500k somewhere in that range. And when I run my net profits, you don't need an income out of the coffee shops. You can exist on your 250.

[Paul]

Okay?

[Dave Ramsey]

Right.

[Paul]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

At home, you can exist on 250.

[Paul]

Especially with the cars gone and everything else.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly. Exactly. No car debt of any kind. No debt of any kind except the 1.9 mortgage. You can exist on 250 with a household budget. You and your wife put together a budget, live on your income. Does she have an income other than the coffee shops?

[Paul]

No, sir. She runs the coffee shops.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. So I would let her and you do whatever work you do on the coffee shops for free for now until we get these SBA loans cleared. Now, what I would do then is say, all right, I'm going to close the books that each month and say my net profit is X for that month on the 11 coffee shops. Agreed. Now then, I'm going to take 20 to 30% of that net profit number and set it aside in the business for retained earnings. And I don't know how strong your cash needs are or your volatility is. The stronger your cash needs are, and the stronger the volatility is, the more I'm a. Lean to the 30%. If you've got this thing dialed in and there's not a lot of cash needs, lean it down to the 20% side. I'm going to take the remaining 70 or 80% each month and throw it at the smallest SBA loan.

[Paul]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right. And so what that tells me is that once the cars are gone and once we start this process, which might be six months from now or so before you actually start doing this, because in the meantime, you gotta get the cars cleared. Okay. And I use some of this money to clear the cars. You bring, bringing everything home to get the cars cleared and just pay your minimum payments on the sba. Once they're done, then we're going to go back to work and quit bringing anything home. We're going to throw it all at the debt or retained earnings. Now, if we did that, let's just run some numbers. Let's say half million dollars, 20% be 100,000, that's 400,000 a year going towards debt. You got a million? In my calculator that says 30 months. You're done. Two and a half years.

[Paul]

Amazing. And then use cash. Build cash up and open new stores.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly. Open new stores with cash. And then guess what happens? The cash stacks so fast.

[Paul]

I'm looking forward to that.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, when you don't have all this stuff hanging over your head, I mean, just think if you're used to paying off debt to the tune of 400 or $500,000 a year, and then you don't have any debt. You know what? You got four or five hundred thousand dollars a year laying there. What's it cost to open a store?

[Paul]

About 350.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. So you can open a store a year. Oh, wait a minute. It's going to get better. Then you can open a store every six months. Oh, wait a minute. Then it's going to even get better, you'll be able to open a store every quarter because your cash flow is going to continue to build every time you open a store and every time you don't have debt. So. And the stability and sustainability factors, the risk factors are incredible on this. You're going to love where you're going to. So basically if we take six months and get rid of the cars and we take two and a half years and do the other, we got a three year plan here and you're debt free. But the house, love it. That's what we laid out. And that's, that's the formula I would use. The different formulas I would use. And then I'm, I am going to start taking some chunks home. I'd like to get that house paid off. That'd be a nice thing. Okay, Be a nice thing to own 12 or 14 paid for coffee shops and a paid for 2,5 million dollars house that I used to owe 1.9 on or whatever the flip it's worth. And that's what, five? No, it's more than that. That's seven years from now. Yeah, because you got an expensive house, but you've done really, really good. And then curb your appetite. Keep your appetite for cars and other things that you're doing down within your cash budget. If we don't pay for it, we don't do it. Because otherwise we end up right back in this dad gum mess again. And you don't want to do this, man. You got us, you got this thing going on now. Take advantage of it. I mean, you got bumper crop, man. You got a great crop coming in, you know, so take advantage of while the sun is shining. Make hay while the sunshine. The farmer said, right, that's what you need to do right now. You got all kinds of cash. Use it smart so that when someday things aren't going quite as smooth, you're in a much better condition. Wow. Very cool. Hunter, you're a stud, man. This is the Entree Leadership Podcast. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts, you'll get 10 different answers. Economic growth or a recession. Business taxes will go up or down. AI will help us work or replace us all. But there's no such thing as a crystal ball. That's why more than 40,000 businesses have future proofed themselves with NetSuite by Oracle, the number one cloud enterprise resource planning system. Ramsey Solutions uses NetSuite and you should too. Whether your company's earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities with one unified business management suite. There's one source of truth for the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions. NetSuite's real time insights and forecasting help you see into the future with actionable data. And when you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you spend less time looking backward and more time focusing on what's next. And speaking of what's Next, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com Ramsey it's free at netsuite.com Ramsey have you figured out that waiting around for things to improve isn't working? If you're done with that idea, you should be. Your business is not going to grow faster or become healthier if all you do is listen to leadership podcasts. You actually have to do something. You gotta do something different. If you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result, that's what the 12 Steppers call the definition of insanity. So you gotta change something. If you finally scale your processes, unify your team, build the business you love to run, wouldn't that be cool? The entree leadership system will help you do that. It's the roadmap, and this system's how I built Ramsey, and it's how we've helped thousands of small businesses transform their lives and actually have a quality of life. It's your turn to drive your business forward with the entree leadership system. It's not going to do it by itself. You got to do it. It's not magic, but it shows you clearly what to do. And the magic is the power, is the clarity of what to do next. Because oftentimes in business, we don't know what the next step is. Well, I've been there before, so I can show you what the next step is. Go here, go there, go there. This is the guide we're going to give you, the entree leadership guide. It's the go to entreleadership.com get started to download the free, oddly enough, described as getting started guide. I don't know where we got that title, but the getting started guide, because it's going to help you get started. Ooh, serious marketing insights right there. This guide will walk you through the process. It's how we grew this business to over $300 million. Business entreleadership.com get started to download the free. Did I mention that it's free Getting started guide? Paul is in Huntsville. Hey, Paul. What's up?

[Hunter]

Hey, good afternoon. Dave. Honored to speak with you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve, man. How can we help?

[Hunter]

Hey. I am the general manager for a home services company, specifically plumbing. We've got about 30 employees, and last year we did $4.5 million. And my question today deals with my father's business. This is his business, and he purchased it about 20 years ago. I've been looking to retire from it for about five years now. I returned to the business four years ago with the intent to purchase or acquire the business by handoff. And the current plan is for me to operate the business as CEO until the time of his passing, when I would receive the ownership of the company in his will. I will assume that position here the next six to 12 months. It's been slow going. I've had a lot to learn, and we're cleaning up the business operations as we go. But along the way, I've seen my father make a few choices, specifically financial choices, that I felt were more questionable, possibly unethical, if not immoral. And my question is, should I continue to operate my father's company knowing that I don't always agree with him financially and possibly ethically? Should I try to fix issues, pursuit, pursue a buyout or walk away completely or some other option?

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow. Well, we have to have a change of plans of some kind. I don't want to burn the sh. I don't want to burn the building down right now in this conversation, but I was going to say burn the ships, but I don't either one. I don't want to do either one right now. Here's what flashed through my mind as you said that, and I'll just share it with you, and then you and I'll work it out together here on the air. Okay?

[Hunter]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Rabbi Daniel Lapin wrote a book called Thou Shalt Prosper. It's one of my favorite business and financial books. It is the 10 reasons that Jewish families have had a statistically unlikely tendency to outperform their neighbors financially at every point in history. Anytime you go back in history, you find the Jewish community has outperformed monetarily, their neighbors. As an example, 3% of the American public is Jewish. 67% of the Forbes 400 is. So once I start understanding that, I want to read this book, I want to know what these 10 things that the Jewish community believes that causes them to be able to win one of those. In one of those chapters, he says it is almost impossible. He was talking about making money is moral. If you believe this is different from your question, okay, But I'M just setting the whole thing up. If you believe that making money is immoral or having wealth is immoral, then you will be horrible at making money because it's hard for the human brain with cognitive dissonance to do something that it believes is wrong. Does that make sense?

[Hunter]

Okay. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So it's going to be hard for you to run this business when you believe it's wrong. This stuff is ethically wrong. It's going to be hard for you to do that. It's hard. I mean, it's almost impossible for you to do it so well that the business prospers. And so it's just difficult. If you believe in your soul that everything we're doing is pure and noble and good, then you will fight to win. But when you're questioning and you're looking over your shoulder like, I don't think we're doing this. This is not right. And why would you be enthusiastic about going, this is not right. You're not. And your creativity gets shut down and your, you know, your new ideas and processes and growth and all that shuts down. So you cannot exist in the deal that you've got. Okay? Not. And have a good life. How old is your dad?

[Hunter]

He is almost 60.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. When do you think, Is he in the day to day still?

[Hunter]

He is, yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. When is the plan for him to not be in the day to day anymore?

[Hunter]

Within the next five years, probably.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. And so he's still down there doing things he has the power to. He's the owner, the founder. He bought it, but he's owned it for many years and it's his. So he gets the right. He has the right to do with his business what he wants to, but the goal was for him to step aside and you be the CEO and him go home and live off the profits while you ran the business. And then you got the business at his death. That was the original goal, right?

[Hunter]

Correct. Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

But he wasn't going to go home for about another 5 years. About 65 years old.

[Hunter]

Depends on his energy levels. But yes, that's. It's kind of up in the air at the moment.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Hmm. What I would propose is that you put a timeline on it, like three years from now, a hard date, and start talking to him about a hard date. I need a hard date.

[Hunter]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that he go ahead and transfer the ownership to you.

[Hunter]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

When he goes home and you agree in return to pay him for the rest of his life, X or until you reach a number X or Whatever. So what kind of profits does this thing throwing off?

[Hunter]

We shoot for 10%. We've been about 6 to 8% over the past few years.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's net of administrative and everything, correct?

[Hunter]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Net. Net. Net profit. Okay. All right. And you said it's 4.2 million. Is that what you're talking?

[Hunter]

What, 4.5 million?

[Dave Ramsey]

4.5 million. Okay, so we're dealing with, let's call it 400 grand just for the fun of it. Okay. All right. And you're being paid before we get to that 400 grand? Is he being paid before we get to that 400 grand?

[Hunter]

He is taking a salary, and yes, I'm being paid for that.

[Dave Ramsey]

What is your salary? What is his salary?

[Hunter]

My salary is 85,000. His salary, I believe, is 65,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

65?

[Hunter]

I believe so. Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so if we value this business at a million dollars and you paid him $200,000 a year for five years, or 50% of the profits for five years, he would get 200,000 a year for five years.

[Hunter]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's you buying him out instead of you getting it at. That doesn't work because you're getting it free when he dies now.

[Hunter]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

But what's the deal when he goes home? How much is he supposed to be paid when he goes home?

[Hunter]

We haven't agreed to that yet. As far as I know, he's looking to just take a salary from now until time of death, basically just to keep the bills paid.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, Dad, I want to give you $100,000 a year salary until death with a 10% raise a year until death if you go home now. Okay, then you can run his business. Or he could go ahead and transfer it to you now. There's no harm in that. Okay, he could transfer it to you now. And the agreement is you pay him $100,000 a year with a 10% raise a year till death. Okay, you might do that for 40 years, but that's. Yeah, you know, it's possible. I mean, he could live to 100, but he might do it for 30 years. That'd be a lot of money. But, yeah, that'd be more than the business is worth. So maybe I'm making a mistake, but that's. That was the deal y'all were going to do anyway, so. And the salary stops, obviously at his death. What about your mom? Who's taking care of her?

[Hunter]

No, she would be. She would fall under my responsibility. Or he has rental property that she would then manage.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so if he died and his salary stopped, she'd be okay.

[Hunter]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. Yeah. Give him a little more. If he'll go ahead and go home now and transfer it now.

[Hunter]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I'll pay you for life, But I need you to go ahead and transfer the ownership now, not at death, because that keeps him from coming in and using the ownership to make unethical decisions in spite of the fact that you're running the day to day and he's at home because he still could come back in and throw mud on the window. Right?

[Hunter]

Correct. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's what we're trying to prevent. I need him to go ahead and transfer it now to prevent that. And I don't know how much discussion have you had with him about the ethics issues.

[Hunter]

We had. The. The main issue that we had happened about two years ago, and I and my wife at that time both worked in the company, and we both almost walked away from the company at that point in time.

[Dave Ramsey]

What kept you from walking away?

[Hunter]

The issue was caused. My wife was in HR and she made a mistake in the billing of our benefits package. And his solution was to back charge the employees of the company. I felt that that was wrong and said either she should or we should be responsible for the payment on that. The back pay on that, or the company should eat it, not charge technicians who had already signed on a benefits package and knew nothing about the issue. And he finally said, okay, we'll let you pay for the mistake. It was a fight to get there, but we did. So I stayed on for. Really. For the eventual business.

[Dave Ramsey]

And she just had had enough and she went home eventually.

[Hunter]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

And it was her mistake. Wow, that's heavy. Okay, so let me ask you this, then. That sounds like an operational thing that would not have occurred if he was at home, even if he was the owner. Okay, If. Okay, let's say he's at home two years from now and that exact same thing happened, you would just make the decision he wouldn't come back in. He wouldn't come back in and throw his weight around on that, Woody.

[Hunter]

I don't. I don't know. I would be. Because he would be dependent on the profits of the business then.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, no, he's not dependent on the profits of the business. We're just giving him 100 grand.

[Hunter]

Okay. All right, so then it. I guess in the. In the current plan, without just giving 100 grand. But if we send him home, then. Then, yes, that would work, but the current setup would be that he would still be dependent on the profits of the business. And.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, I thought he was. I thought he was just getting a salary when he went home. Oh, you meant he wanted all the profits and a salary when he went home. And you run it for 80 grand until he dies.

[Hunter]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's the current plan. That sucks. I misunderstood. I thought he was going home and taking a $65,000 salary and you got the profits. Oh, no, no. I'm not running this thing for you for 30 years. And I'm a CEO and not an owner. And you're 80 and I'm 60.

[Hunter]

Okay?

[Dave Ramsey]

No, I'm not doing that deal. That's not good for you. It's not good for the company. No, we gotta figure out something. I misunderstood. Okay, now he ain't gonna take the 100 grand. I thought 65 to 100 was giving him a raise. I was screwing up. I goofed. Okay? Wow. Okay, now what do we do? Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Uh, I don't know. Cause, I mean, that's. You were gonna be paying him a lot more for the business than if you bought him out. Right. Now under that other scenario.

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

What the flip do we do here? Cause he's thinking he's getting a half million dollars. You're $465,000 a year or $400,000 a year or whatever. Yeah.

[Hunter]

Now, he has been good. And just watching for the past couple years, he has been good to put a lot of that profit back into the business through different capital purchases and things like that.

[Dave Ramsey]

What would make him happy if you sent him home, that is, what amount of money? I mean, seriously, based on the way you all have been talking this through and he has been putting the money back in anyway, if he said, okay, Dad, I want to go ahead and transfer it to me, and I want you to go home, what would make him happy?

[Hunter]

I think that hundred thousand. We've talked about changing his salary to 100,000 a year at one point in time. We didn't end up doing that, but we talked about that.

[Dave Ramsey]

But that's all he's going to get in my scenario. Not 400.

[Hunter]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

You think that would do it?

[Hunter]

I'm not sure. That's. That's a. A great solution. What we talked about. If I purchased it outright.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. There's no reason for you to purchase it outright if you get it free at death.

[Hunter]

Exactly.

[Paul]

Yes.

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So I won't even just give it to you free now. And. But the. But the deal is that he stays on payroll as long as he's alive at 100k plus some kind of cost living raise, whether it's 5 or 10% a year, whatever it is, I don't care. I mean, because 100,000 20 years from now is not going to be as much as it is today, obviously. So we need to give him a cost of living raise. So 100,000 plus a 5% raise a year or 10% raise a year, whatever. I don't care. That's still going to be a good deal for you if he'll do that. I think it solves all of your ethics and moral issues if we get the thing transferred to you sooner rather than later. That's what I'm looking to do.

[Hunter]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And if it's going to be as long as he's alive, that's untenable for you for what? The reasons I described when we first picked up the phone and started talking. Because it's inconsistent with who you are. And I would not do that if I were you. And if I was coaching both of you and you're sitting both of you in front of me, I would say that's not fair to Paul. Paul does not need to wait 30 years to get this business. Okay. And so I'm 63. My son is the president of our company, and I'm currently still the CEO. He and I are running it together. Happily. We're enjoying that. We don't have the situation that you've got, but still, I'm not going to stay in the CEO seat for forever. I mean, it's not the goal. My retirement plan will be doing this microphone stuff only and keep working as a Ramsey personality and doing these entree speaking events and that kind of stuff. That's what I'm going to do in return. Environment. And Daniel will be running the 100% of the place. I'll have. No, I'll still be the owner and. But the last step will be I'm gonna transfer ownership prior to death or at death for free. And that's a good deal for them. So I. Yeah, because we don't have the ethics issue laying on the table that y'all have got. Yeah, I think that. I think you got to transfer it to use sooner. And so let's try that. That's the best way to go. Wow, I missed that. Okay. Oh, well, we'll get there. Muddle through. Muddle through. This is the Entree Leadership podcast.

[Britt]

As a business leader, you're pulled in a lot of different directions and your time isn't always yours. But great leaders know they don't Achieve anything great alone and they understand the need to delegate. So what if you could delegate five tasks to someone you trust and save 15 hours each week? With Belay, you can. Belay pairs you with a virtual assistant, accounting specialist or marketing assistant to help you do less and accomplish more. Belay assistants are based in the United States and they'll find the right match based on your personality, company culture, tasks and systems. That way you can focus on your strengths and delegate your weaknesses, which is exactly what every great leader does. So get the support you need to get out of the weeds and back to growing your organization with Belay. To learn how to save 15 hours by delegating five tasks, text ENTREZ to 55123. You'll receive their free delegation worksheet and guide. That's entre to 55123.

[Dave Ramsey]

The entree leadership system is what you get with the getting started guide and the system is this. We have discovered by observation, not by forcing it on anyone, but by observation, that businesses go through five stages of business. They go from treadmill operator, where you feel like you're on a treadmill, to pathfinder to trailblazer to peak performer to last one is legacy builder. And that's we were talking to a company at the legacy stages just a few minutes ago here. Okay. As you're going through those stages, the way you're leveling up is you're adding different skill sets and you're at. You're getting better and better and better at the different components of running a business. We call them the six drivers of running a business. The six drivers are personal. You're the problem, you're the solution. Purpose. Business is bigger than the bottom line, people. Building a unified team is the key to winning in business plan. Winning is an intentional act. It doesn't happen by accident. Product deliver excellence and the profits will take care of themselves. Profit, profits fuel your purpose and you start again. You grow, get bigger. Your business never going to get bigger than you are. You got to continually to continue to reiterate the purpose, why we're here. And if the only purpose, the only reason you're here is just for money, you're going to run out of steam. Because money is good. Go get you some. I'm not against money. I'm a capitalist pig. Okay? But I'm not driven by money. Money is the byproduct of doing good. When you do good in the marketplace, when you serve your customers. Rabbi Lapin that I was talking about earlier says when you serve your customers well they give you certificates of appreciation with presidents faces on them called profit. Profit is the applause that your customers give you. Yay, you did a great job. Here's some of my money. And if you just go after money and you're not going after service and money is the byproduct, you're going to run out of steam. And you smell bad. People will smell it. They smell it on you. They smell that you're not there for them, you're there for the money. They start to feel like a number. You start to feel like a Bank of America customer. Right? We're just here to get screwed over. We're just here to you, for you to take my money. And I'm a number. I don't really matter to you. That's how the customer starts to feel when you don't have a strong purpose. And so business is bigger than the bottom line if you're going to create a sustainable and growing enterprise over decades, which is what we've done here and what we coach many, many, many thousands of businesses around America to do. So how do you do this? Well, you have to focus on several things. And these are things that when I first started and I was just trying to stay open and make payroll, I'm worried about collecting a receivable, I'm worried about getting this thing profitable. I'm worried about whether we can make our bills right. These things all sounded very soft and corporate and theoretical to me. But I have discovered now, 30 years in, that they are actually the soul that drives a business that is sustainable. So we have to discover what our mission is. What is our mission? And then out of the mission you start to say, okay, I've got a vision. What's our vision? And we have a mission statement. A vision statement. And then we said, okay, how are we making decisions around here? What caused us to do that versus that? And we started writing them down. And those are our core values. What are your values? Your values give you. Your decisions are already made once you know what your values are, because your values will tell you what the decision is. Especially in a high conflict, high stress situation and generosity. How can we be more generous and define the impact you want to make through the business? So when do you start to focus on this idea of I've gotta have a mission? Well, it's really after you get out of the treadmill stage. The treadmill stage is where you're on a treadmill by yourself, all the revenue's counting on you. Once you get past that and you've Got some delegation going on, you've got good time management, you're hiring properly, people you can delegate to. Now you're leveling up and you go to the Pathfinder stage. The Pathfinder stage is where you need to recommit to the mission and start to lay out what your values are and then communicate them and communicate them and communicate them and communicate them over and over and over to the team. My friend Andy Stanley says the team hasn't heard it until you said it 21 times. If somebody on the team is not making fun of the fact that you're repeating yourself all the time, then you haven't said it enough. So we sat down because a friend of mine used to teach this stuff who's since passed away. But when it was me and the very first team member, Russ Carroll, we sat down and opened our Bible and prayed and said, okay, what is our mission at Ramsey? And we wrote out a mission statement. It took us three or four days to get it all wordsmithed and get it where we felt good about it. Just two of us sitting in this tiny little office. And the weird thing is that I think we got it right. I think God must have spoken to us to give us that mission statement. I know that because the mission statement is still the same 34 years later, except we changed one little section, but it's still the same. Ramsey Solutions is here to provide hope with common sense, education and empowerment with biblically based principles. This is what we do to everyone in every area of life. We used to say in money, but now we've got entree leadership, we've got mental health, we've got other things. And so we're giving hope to everyone in every area of life with common sense, education and biblically based principles. And that is our mission statement. That's who we are. If it doesn't do that, we don't do it. It tells you what you aren't as much as it tells you what you are. We're not in the apartment building business. Cause it doesn't do those things. Now, I might build some apartments as Dave Ramsey, but Ramsey Solutions doesn't do that. And so we laid out that mission statement the very first time and we have stuck to it. And that focus, not getting sidetracked with our with 14 different initiatives that had nothing to do with the driving force of this business is one of the reasons we've been as successful as we have. Then the core values came along at the peak performer stage as well. They were here all along. We just didn't know they were here. And so core values in our place, Pat Lencioni, our friend, teaches that there's two types of core values. There's core values that are aspirational, meaning I aspire to, that's what I'd like to be. And then there are core values that are simply factual, tactical. That's who we are. It identifies who we are. We don't have any aspirational core values at Ramsey. All of ours are just who we are. And we have 14 of them. And they came about because every time we made a decision that we couldn't describe making that decision or making that process or leaning into it based on that one thing over there, based on one of the existing core values, we wrote down, how do we make that decision? What's our deal? One of our core values is we have a self employed mentality. Everyone that works here acts like they own the place. And if you don't care about this place as if you owned it, you don't fit in. You have to, if you're here just to collect a check and do a job. And how fast can I get out of the building every day and not act like and think like and feel like an owner of this place? If you don't care deeply, you don't get mad when somebody talks bad about us. You don't get your feelings hurt when things don't go right. Then you don't fit in around here. You gotta have a self. That's one of our core values. We discovered that. We kept looking around going, why don't we respect that person and we respect that other person that works here? Oh, that one's just collecting a job. They're just collecting a check. They're working at job. So that's. We identified our core values and we wrote them out. And now they're all over the building. And we remind each other what they are all the time. And periodically in staff meeting, I will teach one of them. I taught the momentum theorem, which is one of our core values this week, to our whole team, 1,100 of them sitting in the staff meeting. And I taught 24 minutes on the momentum theorem and taught what it was. It's what we do. Okay, so we walk through these things. So how do you maintain them? You talk about them and you remind people when we made this decision, it's because this is who we are. Based on this, this is how we think. It's how we do stuff. And we revisit the mission. The core values as a leadership team all the time. And we revisit it with the rest of the team all the time, constantly. We've never stopped in 30 years going over it and over it and over it and over it again. Now if you've been in business for a bit and you don't have a mission statement or a core value, you probably ought to sit down and start talking about it. What are the things that drive us? And when push comes to shove, what are our values? What do we really value here? What do we believe? You've got self employed mentality. One of ours is a no gossip. We don't believe in gossip. So you can speak up but you can't speak out. I don't need any freaking activists here. I'll fire your little activist butt and let you go activist somewhere else. You can speak up to leadership and say there's a problem and we'll help you fix the problem. Cause we got problems. We have disagreements, we have personality confusions around here. We have all kinds of contentious things that happen. There's 1,100 people in the building. There's 1,100 chances for you to be pissed off every day. And so when you have a problem, speak up, don't speak out. Don't sit around in the lunchroom and discuss how stupid Ramsey is or how stupid your leader is or they don't understand or how incompetent so and so is over on the video team or whatever. We'll warn you one time on that and the second time we'll just fire you. We don't want that. And you know, consequently, we have a virtually gossip free environment. And it's one of the things our team loves. It's a cultural icon. It's a core value. It tells us how to make decisions. No, gossip is a core value. Which means we don't tolerate gossip. Hello. You get fired for it. Isn't that weird? That's weird, but I guess it keeps the toxic puke out of the building because people just walk around in. I mean, I never. Henry Cloud used to say this and it cracked me up, but it was truth. He says, why do people pee in their cereal and then gripe? Because it tastes bad. You know, I mean, that's gossip. Why are you pooping in the workplace and wondering why there's a smell? I mean, that's gossip. That's what it is. Of course. That's what's going on. And that's corporate America. Most of you work in places that or have worked in places I have years ago. I mean, where you're just dealing with that kind of stuff. So that's a core value. We actually had that policy, talked about it, but never wrote it down until the time that we said, okay, we need core values. Well, what's one of our core values? No gossip. What's one of our core values? Self employment mentality. What's one of our core values? Momentum theorem. What's one of our core values? And we would just write them down. So you need to sit down and write yours down. And you need to lay out what your mission is. And your mission doesn't need to be I want to make money. Because that's gross. I want you to make money. I hope you get just unbelievably wildly wealthy and you're wildly generous in the process of you becoming wildly wealthy and you have a wildly wonderful life. I hope all of that happens because you serve and help so many people. What's your mission? What's your core values? You need to sit down and write them down. And this is the purpose driver of these six drivers. Very, very important. Business is bigger than the bottom line. And then you integrate these things into the culture of the company by adhering to them and reminding everyone that we adhere to them and that this is who we is. That simple. This is the entree leadership pod. Without our mission statement, Ramsey Solutions wouldn't be the company it is today. A mission statement clarifies who you are and who you aren't. So you and your team have clear direction for all your decision making. To get help creating your own mission statement, download my free mission statement [e-mail] or if you're listening on Spotify or podcasts, just click the link in the description. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Open phones here. You can be a part of the entre leadership podcast by calling 844-944-1070. Britt is with us in Richmond, Virginia. Hey Britt, what's up?

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Hey Dave. So first let me say that I am a certified Ramsey baby. My parents found out about you when I was in middle school and subsequently never owned a credit card. My wife and I paid off our house in three years so.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow, stuff really works.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

And it does travel down generations.

[Dave Ramsey]

I love it. Very cool.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

So we are a small batch luxury custom apparel company. We have six employees including my wife and I and we are knocking on the door of a million in revenue. Our main client base is advertising agencies, retail goods for places like museum gift stores and apparel for TV shows and movies.

[Dave Ramsey]

Very neat.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

We've Always grown the business organically through referrals and website traffic. We have a nice website. We're very searchable on Google, so we have had pretty steady growth that way. But we would like to start actively growing the business through direct sales, and that is pretty unfamiliar territory for me. I feel very comfortable in a sales role at our business, but it's more because I understand the product and I understand our customer, but not because I have a background in sales or sales training or anything like that. So my main question is, we just hired our first sales rep to do client acquisition sales, and what should the expectations be for additional revenue from a sales rep, and should that be pegged to a multiple of their salary?

[Dave Ramsey]

You're paying them a straight salary.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

For this sales rep? It's mainly commission because it's client acquisition sales.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that's what it should be. Okay, so every time he gets paid or she gets paid a percentage of their order, correct?

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's where most of their income comes from, right?

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

That's correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. So every time they make an order, you make money even after paying them.

[Hunter]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So I hope. I hope they get rich because you're going to get richer.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Yes. Me too.

[Dave Ramsey]

I want that sales rep to make a million dollars, which mean you made 10 million, right?

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Yes. Well, the way that we have our current deal structured with that sales rep is that they have a base pay of $300, which is just to kind of COVID their, like, minor expenses. And then they make a 50% commission on the first sale of a new client, and then they get a 25% commission on the second sale from that same client, and then the commission stops at that point.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, they don't get the third sale.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

They don't get sales beyond that. The way that we figured out the math of it was that our average order cost for first and second order is around $1,200. So they would be making about $1,000 per customer brought in.

[Dave Ramsey]

Mm.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Is that a bad way to structure?

[Dave Ramsey]

It's not bad. There's nothing wrong with it. I mean, there's not a. There's not a thing. That's immoral. I think that the thing you want to do is, the thing I've discovered about comp structures in general is no matter what you say, people are going to do what creates their pay.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so what you're saying to this guy with his structure is that him bringing in first and second orders is everything because the only way he gets paid.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so if he does unrealistic Something to get just those first two orders and then the client can't. You don't really want them to stay because of the deal that was made with the client. You know, you don't get to. You're assuming that you, after the second order, that this is going to be a wonderful client, but it's not going to be if he set the whole relationship up wrong because he's not paid for it. So I probably would like for him to get a small residual on all orders after the second one, but big hits on the first two like you've got. So I might put him on a little residual to where he could have an incentive to help. If he built up a huge book of business like over a five year period of time, brought in 500 or 1,000 clients and he was getting 3% on all of their orders after those first two, he could have built himself a really good living.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

And he gets to help you manage and maintain those relationships that he initially formed or she initially formed. So I would like in your situation to, I want, you want to retain the customer after the second order, I assume.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Yes, we do, of course.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so let's pay him something to ensure that that happens. Because what you pay people to do is what they're going to do.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Well, I can walk you through the logic of how we came up with that and you can tell me if this is a bad way to think about it. But the way that we work with our customers is we build them a password protected store on our website that's all of their products. And so we found that once we got them across the doorway with the first couple of orders, it's pretty much automated with them just logging onto their own page and placing their own orders.

[Dave Ramsey]

You don't go back and you don't go back and talk to them and maintain the relationship. You don't spend any time with them. You just put it on, set it and forget it.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

We have a virtual assistant that checks in with them periodically through email. It seems like people only need the handholding of like phone conversations and stuff like that for the first couple of orders and then after that.

[Dave Ramsey]

So how long do you maintain it? Once you put somebody in that automated thing, how long do you keep them?

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Usually we have a really high customer retention rate. So most of our clients have been clients of ours for five, six years.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right, then you're right, I'm wrong. You don't. Because you don't need him to cause that to happen because of your system. So.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're not going to lose them because of their lack of contact with their initial sales guys. What you're telling me.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

That is the way our system is set up. And our customers seem to like that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah, that's fine. So, yeah, I think. I don't disagree. I mean, I think my suggestion was wrong given your. Given your new piece of information. I think you're right. So it was logical. Yeah, I would stick with it. I think you're doing a good job. Very cool.

[Unnamed Sales Rep]

The math is good math on that commission?

[Dave Ramsey]

I have no idea. I mean, the question is, can the guy make some money or gal make some money? Because a good salesperson can make six figures. But if they make six figures doing this, how much are you making? Are you happy with that? Because I want them to. I want them to. Salespeople ought to prosper because it keeps them motivated. You know, they like the human brain, likes to see traction. And that traction is, I get a check because I made a sale. I get a check because I made a sale. And if those checks are not small, are so small they don't get my attention, then it's very difficult. So can they make a living doing this? Are they going to make $25,000 a year and make a bazillion dollars for you? If that's the case, it's structured wrong. You know, if they're making $100,000 a year and you're going and you're not making a profit, more structured wrong. Okay, that's the other way. So somewhere in there, you know. But if you put somebody on 10% commission and you're making a profit of 10 or 15% after they are paid, I want them to become wealthy because I'm going to make more than they make. So this is a good deal. That's the acid test. Is it a win win? And is there a motivated thing that's set up here? That's what you're after. Good stuff. Well, thanks, ladies and gentlemen. We appreciate you guys being with us again. It's our 600th episode here on the entrez leadership podcast. Ho. Here we go. Remember, better a wary warrior than a quivering critic. This world needs more high quality leaders, so take courage and lead. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thanks for listening to the entree leadership podcast. Now, y'all clean this mess up.