My Office Manager Is Getting Taken Advantage Of

Summary

The EntreLeadership Podcast: "My Office Manager Is Getting Taken Advantage Of"

Release Date: July 7, 2025
Host: Dave Ramsey, Ramsey Network

In this episode of The EntreLeadership Podcast, Dave Ramsey addresses various leadership and management challenges brought forth by listeners. The focal point revolves around effectively coaching and managing team members to foster growth without causing burnout or inefficiency. Here's a detailed summary of the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode.

---

1. Coaching a Proactive Office Manager

Caller: Jason from Canada
Timestamp: [00:47 – 05:31]

Issue Presented:
Jason sought advice on managing an exceptionally proactive office manager who excels at problem-solving. While this trait is beneficial, Jason observed that the manager tends to overstep by handling others' responsibilities, leading to potential burnout and hindering team members' growth. Additionally, the manager exhibits impatience with junior staff during their learning phases.

Dave Ramsey's Insights:

• Role Clarification: Emphasized the importance of clearly defining the office manager's responsibilities to prevent overstepping into other roles.

  Quote:
  "Your job is to make sure the work gets done through the people. And so this is a leadership discussion we're having here now. And how you're leading is you're not leading. You're doing it for people."
  (Timestamp: [03:00])

• Delegation and Teaching: Highlighted that effective leadership involves teaching and delegating rather than doing tasks for team members. This approach promotes scalability and team growth.

  Quote:
  "The whole purpose of leadership is learning how to delegate."
  (Timestamp: [04:18])

• Developing Humility and People Skills: Referenced Pat Lencioni's The Ideal Team Player to stress that a balanced employee should possess hunger, humility, and people smarts.

  Quote:
  "You gotta be people smart and have a sense of humility as well."
  (Timestamp: [04:55])

Conclusion:
Jason was advised to sit down with his office manager to reaffirm the manager's role as a leader responsible for teaching and delegating. Implementing tools like the Key Results Area (KRA) template can help set clear expectations and improve accountability within the team.

---

2. Balancing Outsourcing and In-House Hiring in E-Commerce

Caller: Tyler from Boise, Idaho
Timestamp: [09:20 – 16:19]

Issue Presented:
Tyler and his wife run a growing e-commerce business. While they've successfully outsourced tasks to partners and vendors, Tyler questions whether to continue this approach or invest in building an internal team, especially after conducting a cost analysis that favors in-house fulfillment.

Dave Ramsey's Insights:

• Cost-Benefit Analysis: Recommended assessing whether bringing tasks in-house is financially beneficial based on steady cash flow and consistent work volume.

  Quote:
  "If you have a steady, predictable cash flow environment where you can do that, bringing the task in house is cheaper."
  (Timestamp: [10:03])

• Focus and Quality: Highlighted that in-house employees are fully dedicated, potentially offering higher quality and cultural alignment compared to external freelancers.

  Quote:
  "When you're dealing with outside freelancers, they have other customers... you're dealing with an employee, they got one customer, me."
  (Timestamp: [11:24])

• Scaling Considerations: Advised Tyler to develop his hiring skills to build a reliable internal team, emphasizing that relying solely on external partners may limit scalability.

  Quote:
  "If you have, you know, two or three other people bring in rocket fuel in there, what else would happen?"
  (Timestamp: [15:12])

Conclusion:
Tyler was encouraged to conduct a thorough cost analysis to decide which functions to keep in-house versus outsource. Building an internal team could enhance focus, quality, and scalability, provided the business maintains a steady cash flow.

---

3. Effective Delegation and Management in a Cannabis Company

Caller: Ken from Huntsville, Alabama
Timestamp: [17:15 – 25:30]

Issue Presented:
Ken, CEO of a vertically integrated cannabis company, faces difficulties in creating an effective delegation and follow-up system for his team of managers across multiple facilities. Despite having competent and motivated young staff, Ken struggles with managing delegation without becoming overwhelmed by follow-up meetings.

Dave Ramsey's Insights:

• Regular Meeting Rhythm: Suggested establishing a consistent meeting schedule (weekly or bi-weekly) with clear agendas focusing on personal updates, company progress, and accountability.

  Quote:
  "You need a standard meeting rhythm with them... an update on personal things, it's an update on company things, and it's an update on accountability to their direct position."
  (Timestamp: [18:12])

• Trust and Competency: Emphasized that delegation requires trust in team members' competency and integrity. Leaders should focus on training rather than micromanaging.

  Quote:
  "Delegation, philosophically, from a principal standpoint, cannot occur until you trust someone's competency and their integrity."
  (Timestamp: [19:00])

• Training Through Delegation: Advocated for a hands-on training approach where leaders gradually allow team members to handle tasks independently, building their confidence and competence.

  Quote:
  "That's training, okay? But I taught him the implication or the application of our values... he is competent to execute."
  (Timestamp: [22:23])

Conclusion:
Ken was advised to implement a structured meeting cadence with clear agendas and to focus on training his managers through delegation rather than stepping in to handle tasks himself. Utilizing tools like the KRA template can further clarify roles and expectations, enhancing overall team accountability and productivity.

---

4. Overcoming Recruitment Challenges in a Commercial Drywall Company

Caller: Charlie from Steamboat Springs, Colorado
Timestamp: [30:21 – 40:11]

Issue Presented:
Charlie manages a commercial drywall company experiencing stagnation in growth. With revenue of $5.6 million and challenges in attracting qualified talent due to competitors offering significantly higher salaries, Charlie is uncertain whether to engage external recruiters or enhance internal referral programs.

Dave Ramsey's Insights:

• Internal Referral Programs: Recommended incentivizing current employees to refer qualified candidates by offering bounties or rewards for successful hires.

  Quote:
  "You need to get your grapevine moving and grease it a little bit with some money."
  (Timestamp: [38:03])

• Community Engagement: Encouraged leveraging the existing network within the construction industry, emphasizing that referrals from trusted sources are more reliable and cost-effective than external recruiters.

  Quote:
  "Your estimator knows guys at other places that are doing this and he knows project managers."
  (Timestamp: [34:00])

• Competitive Compensation Strategy: Acknowledged the difficulty in competing with larger firms on salary but suggested emphasizing company culture and growth opportunities to attract talent.

  Quote:
  "We couldn't let the local poacher just determine what we pay... The marketplace determines what we pay, what the value of that position is."
  (Timestamp: [37:48])

Conclusion:
Charlie was advised to bolster internal referral programs by offering incentives for successful hires and to utilize his team’s networks within the industry. Additionally, focusing on company culture and growth opportunities can help attract and retain qualified talent despite budget constraints.

---

Final Takeaways

Across the various caller segments, Dave Ramsey consistently emphasized the following key leadership principles:

1. Clear Role Definition: Ensure every team member understands their responsibilities to prevent overstepping and promote efficiency.
2. Effective Delegation: Trust in your team's abilities and delegate tasks appropriately, focusing on teaching and empowering rather than micromanaging.
3. Consistent Communication: Establish regular meeting schedules with structured agendas to maintain accountability and foster open dialogue.
4. Proactive Recruitment: Leverage internal networks and incentivize referrals to build a strong, cohesive team without over-relying on external recruiters.

By implementing these strategies, leaders can cultivate a productive, motivated, and scalable team environment that drives business growth and mitigates common managerial challenges.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "The whole purpose of leadership is learning how to delegate." — Dave Ramsey [04:18]
• "You got to remember to do that. These are human beings. Treat them like family." — Dave Ramsey [26:46]
• "You need to set them as a fixed point on the calendar." — Dave Ramsey [25:49]

---

For more insights and leadership tools, visit EntreLeadership.com and download the free Key Results Area template to enhance role clarity and team accountability.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

From the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions. This is the Entree Leadership podcast where I take calls from leaders like you about what it takes to win at any stage of business and leadership. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host with over 30 years of experience leading in the trenches right alongside you. If you want to submit a question, go to entreeleadership.com ask or you can leave a voicemail and either way we'll get you set up to be a caller here. Voicemail number is 844-944-1070. That's 844-944-1090. Jason is in Canada. Hi Jason, how are you?

[Jason]

Excellent, Dave, thank you very much.

[Dave Ramsey]

Cool. How can we help today?

[Jason]

Well, Dave, after learning the hard way about not to hire and hiring mistakes, we've carefully followed your advice and were able to hire a true thoroughbred. And we're happy about that. However, I'm hoping you can help us with how to coach a thoroughbred through challenges without squashing their ambition.

[Dave Ramsey]

Such as?

[Jason]

Well, the individual we have is a real problem solver and has been a great asset. And when they see a problem in the company, they're eager to go out and solve. What we've noticed is sometimes they're stepping into other folks responsibilities and I'm worried about them both taking on other people's roles inadvertently and risking burnout. Additionally, I've noticed they've had some little patient with the with younger staff and junior staff in the learning phase. So I'm hoping you can help to guide us on how to get them through this phase.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, what is this person's role? What is their job title? What do they do?

[Jason]

They're an office manager.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. So their job is to manage the office. And so the things that they're working on then fall under office management or outside of office management.

[Jason]

Well, there's some specific roles because we're a company of about 15 people. So some specific roles. They do have some operational titles as well. So they would handle things such as maintenance requests and service and repair requests.

[Dave Ramsey]

But I mean, the problem that they jumped over into somebody else's area to solve, was it under their management or was it and they just didn't let the subordinate have time to fix it and they went and fixed it for them. Or is this something outside of their job description?

[Jason]

You could say that the subordinate would report to them. Rather than letting the subordinate do it, they would go and do it for them.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so that's not okay. All right. And so. But you hired them very clearly and they know that their Job is to be a leader and to run the office.

[Jason]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right, so I think we just sit down and have some clarification and go, look, your problem solving skills are amazing, and your initiative and your ambition is amazing. I'm real happy with that. But we hired you to lead this team, not do all their work. And so, you know, when you do something for someone, rather than teach them how to do it, the next time it comes up, you get to do it again. And that's not your job. Your job is to teach them how to do it. And part of being a teacher is having patience and bringing people along. Part of being a teacher. Part of being a leader is being a teacher. And you teach someone how to do something, and then you hold them accountable to that series of behaviors. And that's your job. And so it's not your job to do all the work. Your job is to make sure the work gets done through the people. And so this is a leadership discussion we're having here now. And so how you're leading is you're not leading. You're doing it for people. And because you're so driven. And that's awesome. And we're getting the work done. But the problem is we're setting up a system here, a set of processes that aren't working because the goal of that subordinate being there is for them to do the work.

[Jason]

Exactly. We want to grow. And we can't.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, we can't. Because you're doing everything. You got the whole world in your hand. I mean, you're like, come on. I mean, that's not. You can't do the whole thing. The whole purpose of leadership is learning how to delegate. And if the subordinate is incompetent, we can talk about that. But if they just haven't been trained yet. Cause you haven't trained them, then that's a different thing. So I think you just open up a dialogue and say, okay, you and I are gonna start working on this together. Because just like I'm asking you to show them how to do their job, I'm gonna show you how to do yours. Yeah. And I'm gonna walk alongside you and we're gonna talk about how we process that. Because it's not as important that the work get is how it got done. How it got done is you taught the person to do it and they did it, not you did it for them. Because that's not scalable. If you learn how to teach people how to do work, you can't do, don't know how to do or won't do or whatever, then now we've got a scalable, delegatable environment. And yes, that requires some patience with them. And so what you've got is someone who execute tasks well and their people skills are low.

[Jason]

I agree with that for sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And that's a good person, that's a trainable person. If they, if they, you know, if they have enough humility to listen to you when you're doing this, you do have a thoroughbred. Now if they're arrogant about it and they're like, no, it's not, it's not. They just don't know what they're doing, then you really don't have a thoroughbred. You just got a go getter. And so yeah, Pat Lincioni talks about this in the book the Ideal Team Player. If you've got someone who is hungry, but they're not people smart and they're not humble, they'll run over everybody. And we mistake them for being a high producing person because they're so hungry and so driven. But that's just one of the elements. You gotta be people smart and have a sense of humility as well. And the humility's not lacking in confidence, it's that you're other centered rather than self centered. That's all humility is. And so your job is to be the mother hen or your job is to be the coach, or your job is to lovingly lead and teach and cause this work to get done through these people, not in spite of these people. These people that we've hired that work on your team are not an impediment. They're not a problem to be worked around. They're the answer to the equation. And so our job as leaders is to lift them up, get them into the saddle, get them going. And you know, that's the direction I would go with that. So. Hey, really, really good question and I love the way you phrased it. So well done. Sounds like you got a good business going there. Very, very cool. These days, business as usual is anything but. Tariffs make trade policy a moving target. Supply chains are squeezed and your cash flow is tight. If your business can't adapt in real time, you're in a world of hurt. That's why you need Netsuite by Oracle, trusted by more than 41,000 businesses, including Ramsey Solutions. You need to see what's happening, what's stuck and what's costing you and how to fix it. Netsuite is the number one cloud based business management suite because it helps your business make the right decisions fast. It brings accounting, financial management, inventory, and HR into one place so you're not left shuffling a dozen different spreadsheets. That gives you the visibility you need to make quick decisions based on actionable data. And NetSuite AI automates everyday tasks so your team can focus on strategy. It's one system for full control and no guesswork to tame the chaos. And right now, if your business is doing a million or more in annual revenue, download NetSuite's free ebook Navigating Global Trade. 3 insights for [e-mail] Ramsey that's netsuite.com Ramsey As a small business owner, it's your job to set expectations for each role in your company like we were just talking about, and then make sure the expectations are met. Oh, there we go. Like we were just talking about. But you can't hold your team accountable to something you didn't communicate. Our free Key Results area template will help you set expectations and create role clarity for every member of your team. And until you've done that, you're going to have problems so you feel confident that everyone's working on the right things to drive the business forward. Go to entreleadership.com role clarity and download the template for free. Did I mention it's free? And start setting clear expectations for the team. Everybody will be happier. Tyler's in Boise, Idaho Hey Tyler, what's up?

[Tyler]

Hey Dave, thanks for taking my call.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure, man. How can we help?

[Tyler]

My wife and I run an e commerce business that started as a side.

[Dave Ramsey]

Hustle six years ago.

[Tyler]

We have four employees, including ourselves, and last year we grossed $9 million.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow.

[Charlie]

Yeah, thanks.

[Tyler]

As our business grew, I found partners and vendors to delegate tasks to rather than hiring internal employees. The partners are doing a decent enough job handling the work. But after reading your book, specifically the Driver of People, I am wondering if using partners and vendors is a good way to continue growing our business or should I invest in building our own team?

[Dave Ramsey]

Typically, and I won't say it's an always rule, but most of the time bringing some of the tasks in house. If you have a steady, predictable cash flow environment where you can do that, bringing the task in house is cheaper. Typically will save you money. For instance, if you were hiring a programmer to write some code for a website, you can outsource that pretty easily. And we did, and have off and on for years done that. But it's close to double of what it would cost me to hire that person and bring them in here and Keep them as a full time team member. But I have to have a steady flow of work, no ebb and flow of work, and I have to have a steady flow of cash to be able to pay them. Right. So once we had enough demand, enough work demand to hire, to start hiring web programmers, we started hiring software engineers and web programmers. And versus contracting it out, it saved us a ton of money. And we've got a lot more quality and we have 100% focus on us. When you're dealing with outside freelancers, they have other customers. When you're dealing with an employee, they got one customer, me. Right. And so total focus. And you got cultural alignment and mission alignment and stuff. Versus you know, we don't tell other people how to run their businesses. So with a vendor, they get to do whatever they want to do with their culture and their other stuff. And so we don't know that. But, but again, it would require a steady flow of cash, which you're making a ton of money, so that's not an issue as long as that cash is fairly steady and you can make payroll. But. And I would just analyze it and go, okay, what is it I'm doing? I mean, is it SEO work or is it, is it code or are we doing creative or, you know, what would be an example of one you might bring in house and could you do a cost comparison on it?

[Tyler]

Yeah, I think that's kind of the other half of why I'm bringing this up. You know, when we were smaller, it kind of was irrelevant, but now, you know, I did a cost analysis on fulfillment.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Tyler]

And we would save about half. And then our marketing placement, I don't think we'd save money, but the person, like you said, would be fully dedicated to us, which right now they probably have a dozen other clients. So I'm thinking that makes a lot of sense.

[Dave Ramsey]

But focus, the focus of that on a marketing campaign executed flawlessly because of 100% focus is probably worth its weight in gold. Okay, that's one. I would, I would definitely, definitely look at fulfillment. I don't know, I mean, I outsource. We outsource the bulk of our fulfillment. We do some. We have a shipping department internally that, that does a lot of specialty and custom stuff and small order stuff and that kind of thing, but stuff that runs high volume. Like if you want to buy, if you buy a total money makeover or an entree leadership book on our website that's coming out of an outside fulfillment company, because we found the opposite there, that we could Execute a contract with them. Cheaper than try to build a whole warehouse and bring them up, bring all that stuff in. But we're doing massive volume in the physical infrastructure needed to do it. Didn't make sense for us. And so that, yeah, that put a different. Put a different spin on it where it was actually cheaper to outsource it than it is to. I mean, our break even on, you know, having warehouse and tow trucks and, you know, forklifts and. Man, not tow trucks, forklifts. And OSHA regulations and all that bull crap, man, it was just. Nah, no, thank you. Yeah, so for us. But again, that's a huge. We're talking about a massive warehouse operation. So it's not a. It's not a small thing, but, you know, but your most. Your stuff's digital, isn't it?

[Tyler]

No, we ship a lot of physical products.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, all right, all right, cool.

[Tyler]

Yeah, so we, we.

[Dave Ramsey]

If you can. That. That's exactly the way to look at it, though. You're doing it correctly. If you've done the analysis and it's cheaper for you to keep it in house, then do it. Because we kept ours in house for a long, long time. It had to get to ridiculous volume stuff before it made sense to take it out. And we actually looked at it in this last contract renewal whether we were going to bring it all in. We looked at it again as one of the possibilities. We were looking at two different vendors and the possibility of bringing it back in house. And it was a cost analysis just like you're doing. So as long the cost analysis will be the answer to your question, there's no thing that you're doing wrong just because you're using outside vendors. It's not wrong. It's not say, oh, no, you always should build a huge team. No, no, we only build a huge team if it's the best, most efficient way to get the work done.

[Tyler]

Okay, that's good to know because, you know, I'm not the best at finding qualified people and that's probably what's kept me from growing the team. Is it just easier to push it to someone else? But now that our scale has increased so much, I'm looking at it. I'm like, man, this maybe doesn't make sense anymore.

[Dave Ramsey]

So. Well, that may be a skill you need to develop anyway.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Where you don't feel that way about yourself and because you are going to need some key people to scale, you've done an amazing. Your team ratio to Your gross is 4 to 9 million. It's pretty impressive. And yet, you know, if you had, you know, two or three other people bring in rocket fuel in there, what else would happen? Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, I would challenge you to work on that skill and get comfortable with your competency in that. But it is not to say that, oh, no, we'll always have everything outsourced because the same skill you're using to hire and bring on thoroughbreds is the same skill you'd be using to select a high quality vendor. Is still a human being executing this stuff.

[Tyler]

Yeah. Which I learned mostly through trial and error.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, well, we all have. Me too. And so that's why the hiring and firing lesson in entre leadership, or if you go into the elite materials and the, you know, the elite members and they get in these advisory groups with our coaches and all, it's the number one thing that comes up is hiring and firing. It's the number one pain point in business by all of us. All of us. When I teach that lesson at entree leadership events, it always gets the higher scores than if I teach something else. And so just because it's a felt need and meaning that we all are trying to build that competency. So I think you're probably doing better than you feel like you are. But I would, I would, you know, I would push it on through and, you know, get, get comfortable with the whole idea. Charlie is in Steamboat Springs, Colorado. Hey, Charlie. What's up, man?

[Ken]

Hey, Dave. How you doing today?

[Dave Ramsey]

Better than I deserve. How can I help?

[Ken]

Yeah, thanks for taking the call. Big fan. I'm the CEO of a vertically integrated cannabis company with between 32 and 36 employees depending on the time of year, doing about 8 million in revenue each year. And my question for you is, I'm having difficulty creating an effective delegation and follow up system for my team of managers across a couple different facilities, essentially. And I got a lot of young guys working for me who are hungry and super knowledgeable, but nobody really has any true experience with management and delegation. And I'm trying to not bog my life down in follow up meetings every single week, essentially.

[Dave Ramsey]

How many direct reports have you got?

[Ken]

I've got six.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, that's not too many. If those six people are basically running this business and that's how it should be structured, you're not bogging your life down by meeting with them. If you don't meet with them once a week, you need to meet with them once every two weeks. And it doesn't need to be but an hour meeting. And it's an update on personal things. You need a standard meeting rhythm with them. It's an update on personal things, it's an update on company things, and it's an update on accountability to their direct position and to whatever projects you talked about the last time you got together. And so, you know, like one guy's needing to hire two people in the store next week we talk, okay, how's the hiring going? Right, right. Or something like that. And so you need that rhythm. The structure around it is a couple of things. We'll pan back for a second and say delegation, philosophically, from a principal standpoint, cannot occur until you trust someone's competency and their integrity. Now that does not mean you take your hand off the wheel and they go drive the car by themselves, but it does mean that they have shown the ability to drive while you sit in the passenger seat. Yeah. They're not gonna kill both of you. Okay. Right. And so competency is the ability to do it. Integrity is to do it the way that you all teach to do it at your place. What does your brand values and your brand differentiation require them to be in order to be a we? And so that's your basics. If you don't have that, if you've got an incompetent store manager, there's no system or accountability, or if you've got someone that you can't trust not only to not steal, but also to not just to simply not implement the way we've discussed, then we've started from a bad foundation. And no accountability system or templates or process will guide you through that. Nothing will work because you're dealing with, you know, some weak players. And the weak players. Weak players can't play no matter how much you delegate.

[Tyler]

Yeah.

[Ken]

And that's not the problem. The players are actually pretty strong.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Ken]

You know, I think that the issue, and it probably stems from me to a certain degree, is, you know, the attempt at delegation. And then when things don't happen, the like in a. Or like natural gravitation to just going back to the idea of like, okay, it's not getting done, so I just must do it myself. Which just kind of creates that like intense bogged down workload.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that's what you're doing. There is. You're confusing, confusing delegation with training. So you're not micromanaging when someone's not able to do a particular task at the speed you want it done. Now it's time for you to step in and train them. And that may involve you doing it, but it May involve you holding their hand while they do it two times. And so the third time they can do it partially by themselves with you looking closely over their shoulder. And the sixth time you can do it without. The story we always tell is a guy shows up in my office and he says, we've got a problem. And I'm like, what's our problem? And he says, well, this, this, this, and this. And I'm like, well, we don't have a problem. You got a problem. You need to go back and give me three solutions on how to fix that problem. And when he comes back in, he and I go over the three solutions, A, B or C, and say, okay, which one do you think we ought to do? I think we ought to do A. Well, that's a good one. But C is better in this case, and here's why. And I teach him and then I send him back out. The next time he comes in, he goes, we got a problem. And I know you want three solutions. Here's the three solutions. And I know you're going to want to know which one. And I think B in this case. And I'm like, yeah, that looks pretty good. Yeah, that's okay, go do B. And then he comes back in the next day and says, we got a problem. A, B and C. And he goes, and in this case, C is the one. And I'm going to go do that. Okay? And I'm like, yeah, go do it. And the next day he walks by my office and waves and said, we had a problem and I fixed it.

[Ken]

Amazing.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's training, okay? But I taught him the implication or the application of our values, the principles that we use and decision making paradigms at Ramsey, and he gets that dialed in. And then he is competent to execute. And I don't feel the need to come in and put out the fire for him because he knows where the fire extinguisher is. And so. But he did it in a way that I'm comfortable with, which is a type of competency. See, someone can actually know how to run a retail store and not know how to run a retail store the way you want yours run. Right? There are two different types of competency there. There's one within a culture and one that's just general skill set. And general skill set has to be adapted to be within your culture to be competent. And so when you have one of these guys on fire and you have the temptation to jump in. Yeah, you are the problem here. You're right. You need to not jump in and do it for them. Unless it's, unless you hold. Make them, you know, place their hand on the back of your hand as you're guiding the car and let them feel what it feels like this time. So next time I'm gonna take my hand off, put your hand on and stand here while you do it. And so, you know, and we, you know, minor course corrections and minor course corrections. It is not micromanaging to not let someone who's not competent or doesn't have integrity do business. That's just smart.

[Charlie]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so you are training. Until then, you're training and training and training and training. Then I'll add to that some communication tools. Go to the Elite site at Entre Leadership and download the free template for the kra. It's called Key Results Area. And it lays out exactly what their job is. It's a job description of sorts. And then the two of you sit and go over it. And so what you're saying is when you do these three things, you are winning by definition. If you are doing something else, you're not winning. If you're not doing all three of them, you're not winning. And if you're not doing all three of them, the way we teach here at our company, you're not winning. Winning looks like this, but sometimes we take people out and we just point over there and we say, hey, go bowling. And then we turn out the lights and there's noise, but nobody knows if we're winning.

[Charlie]

Yeah, definitely.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so you need stuff like a KRA template to be able to do this. And then you've got something to manage to through the week. And so if you have, you know, these meetings are very, very quick, especially for people that are eager. And it sounds like you've got good, solid raw material to work with. You've just got to polish up the flow of information and the flow of productivity.

[Ken]

And if I'm running because I've got a separate retail store and a separate warehouse and a separate manufacturing facility and a satellite Office all within 15 minutes of each other. And you know, is it effective, Is it more effective to be doing these meetings in person and driving around?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yes. It's only 15 minutes.

[Ken]

I kind of knew that was going.

[Dave Ramsey]

To be your answer. Yeah. But here's the thing. If you set them as a, as a fixed point on the calendar, I've done this for 30 years. I've got fixed meetings every single week. Okay. My son Daniel is the president of Ramsey. At 11 o' clock on Thursday, he and I have our one on ones at 7 o' clock on Tuesday morning. We have a father son breakfast, and we have for 20 years. Wow. But our one on one meeting as president to CEO has only happened since he's been in that president's seat. This is the first time he's ever reported to me directly. And that's only happened for four years. But it's 11 o' clock every Thursday now. He's out of town this week at the beach with his family. So we're not doing it this week. Okay. But if we're here in the office, my assistant, his assistant doesn't book anything across that, that's sacred territory.

[Ken]

I know, that makes sense for sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so, you know, you just set up and go warehouse guy, and you could, you could make the rounds. You don't even have to make them do it. You can say, on Monday morning I'm gonna be at the warehouse. Which is probably good anyway, because you could spend 10 minutes walking through the place and smell the air, feel the. Almost smell the air at a cannabis place. But, but anyway, too many jokes you left on the table with your job. Okay, but you said they were too. And I thought about that. But yeah, but yeah, you walk through the, walk through the air, you know, since the presence, since the spirit of the warehouse and what's going on with the people. You're going to see stock that's being mishandled, things that are disorganized. And you know, then you pop into the meeting and you go, hey, man, that, that corner back there has got to be cleaned up. This, this, this organization is killing me.

[Ken]

You know, and would, and would you suggest like having kind of like a set agenda?

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, definitely.

[Charlie]

Each one of those.

[Ken]

Absolutely.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, definitely. And you know, you need to spend 15, 20 minutes just making sure they're okay. Wife and kids, husband, kids, whatever, all that's okay. Grandma's got cancer. You know, we need to check on everybody. Right. And you got, you got to remember to do that. These are human beings. Treat them like family. They are. You're running a small business. It's a benefit of that. And then the. Yeah, but anyway, you do that and then you go, okay, I need to see what, what is it you need help from me on? Because some things you need to knock down for them to make them, you know, you need to be the guy, the door kicker in some cases. Right, right. You know, because only. There's some stuff only you can do to help their job happen. And then you go, okay, those three things we Talked about last week about getting that guy hired, getting that corner cleaned up. You know, we got to get that front door fixed. It's weird when people walk in. It sounds funny. I don't. Whatever, you know, it's. It's stupid little stuff, but it's driving you nuts. And if you'll download it, you're not burning calories carrying it around. Totally. And it actually, the productivity goes through the roof.

[Charlie]

Really?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Ken]

Amazing.

[Dave Ramsey]

So good, good, good stuff, man. Yeah, you're a great young leader. I can sense that you've got your people's heart and that, that you are really self aware, that you've got a little bit of a growth curve here that's awesome in front of you. And I think this stuff's going to help you a bunch. So I appreciate you calling in, man. Good stuff. Very, very, very well done. You can't hold your team accountable to expectations you didn't set. When you try, everyone's confused. You need a way to clearly define roles and responsibilities for every member of your team. And our free. That I mentioned it's free. Key results area template will make it easy. Go to entreeleadership.comkra right now to download it for free. Or if you're listening on Spotify or podcast, click the link in the description. Thanks for hanging out with us, America. This is the entree leadership podcast. If you like what you're hearing, we need your help. Share the show, tell people about the show. Click the like button, the follow button, the subscribe button, whatever those little buttons are, they're all helpful, I can tell you that, because it changes the algorithms. The more people are doing all that stuff, it pushes the show forward on the Internet thingy. And all of a sudden, man, we got stuff happening because you people shared the show. You're our only marketing hope. Thank you. If you like what you hear, let people know about it, please. Thank you. Thank you. And 5 star reviews. All that stuff helps to you. Ken is in Huntsville, Alabama. Hi, Ken. Welcome to the entree leadership podcast. What's up?

[Charlie]

Hi, Dave. Good to finally talk to you.

[Dave Ramsey]

You too.

[Charlie]

Hey, so have a commercial drywall company here in Huntsville. Last year revenue was 5.6 million with a net profit of 1.3, which doesn't sound bad, but my question to you is, I'm looking to grow it even more. This is year number nine. It's starting to feel a little stagnant. I have a total of 12 employees plus 30 plus subcontractors. And drawing in talent has been an issue for Us. So I guess should I look for a recruiter, some sort of agency outside of us to bring these people in, or just let it happen organically?

[Dave Ramsey]

No, and no. No, no. I wouldn't let it happen organically. And you're not big enough to bring in a recruiter. And outside recruiters I've not had very much luck with. There are a few that you can use here and there, but in the construction world, it's particularly hard. Where we were, what we did at that stage was that we became internally very proactive. And so out of your 12 team, that's office people or what? Or supervisors or jobs.

[Charlie]

So there's five, let's see, six in the office. The rest are foremen.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so, okay, so you got an office manager then.

[Charlie]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what is it you're needing? You're needing more foreman and more subs?

[Charlie]

What? Well, I feel like I would need more people internally to handle the load that we could possibly pick up. I'm just. I want. I don't want to do that until I know for sure I can handle it internally. I don't want to outgrow ourselves.

[Dave Ramsey]

I agree. I agree. So what areas would you need? What. What positions would you need to fill to do the growth?

[Charlie]

You're talking about estimators and project managers.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. Good.

[Charlie]

Yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good, good, good. And you have estimators on staff now?

[Charlie]

I do.

[Dave Ramsey]

And project managers on staff now.

[Charlie]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. We pay. We still to this day pay a bounty to our team. And we say we need estimators and we need project managers. And if we hire one and they stay with us 90 days, meaning they work it out and they come through the onboarding process. And you referred them here, they came here because you brought them here. We will pay you $500. And for a while. And we may still do it. I have to go back and look. But for a while, we were so desperate for programmers at our place, people writing COD on Internet and so forth, building digital products, that we were paying $2,000 bounties for a tech person hire.

[Charlie]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Charlie]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's cheaper than paying a recruiter, number one. Number two, the speech to our team sounds like this in staff meeting. Hey, we've got these types of positions to fill. If you know someone that is a thoroughbred that you would hire if you own the company.

[Ken]

Mm.

[Dave Ramsey]

Only bring the best. Cause you're gonna end up working beside them. And you don't wanna doofus.

[Charlie]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And everybody has friends that are doofuses and crazies. And you know who your doofus and crazy friends are. Keep them out of here. You know, in the construction world, the good news about it is there's a, It's a grapevine. Everybody knows. And your estimator, your estimator knows guys at other places that are doing this and he knows project managers. Your project managers knows guys. I'd talk to your subs and ask them who some good supervisors are out there, who some good project managers are, who some good estimators are. And if they send you one, I'd pay them a bounty.

[Charlie]

Right. Well, the problem we have here is there is a large company here that is paying 40 plus percent more than the rest of us are to these positions. And you know, it's hard to entice someone that, you know, that you can't compete with the company they're working for. And it's, it's from estimators to.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, super. That's a different issue. Yeah, I mean, if the only labor you have available for these slots, you're getting outbid by 40%. That's different than how do I recruit a recruiter can't solve that problem.

[Charlie]

Well. Right. So my thought was, was reaching outside of this area, maybe even to Nashville, getting someone to move in, you know, but these days, where do you, where do you broadcast that from?

[Dave Ramsey]

LinkedIn.

[Charlie]

Okay, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

ZipRecruiter, those kinds of things. You can drop it in there. You need to be real careful to put the filters on it so you don't get overwhelmed with a bunch of junk resumes.

[Charlie]

I have tried that before.

[Dave Ramsey]

You just get, you get. You got an inbox full of trash.

[Charlie]

Yes, yes. But yeah, been there, done that.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you got to put the filters on it and make it harder to get to and so forth and you know, to keep, keep the crate again, keep the crazies away and everybody just. But.

[Charlie]

And I say, how are those.

[Dave Ramsey]

Guys, how are those guys making a profit?

[Charlie]

They, they are owned by a larger firm that just want their revenue to borrow on credit lines. It's not even about that. That company, they just wanted to suck that money out of that company to invest in something else.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, there's not any money in that company if they're paying it all out in payroll.

[Charlie]

That's, that's, that's kind of the problem with them. I guess it's just kind of moving money around to now that's not sustainable.

[Dave Ramsey]

Nobody's going to leave a division that's not profitable because they're overpaying for labor.

[Charlie]

Well, when you're 300 plus million dollars a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

You still don't do that. You don't get to be 300 million a year by being stupid. Right. And running, running an area, an entire area of your company into the dirt because you're overpaying payroll. Overpaying the market by 40% is not logical.

[Charlie]

Well, they moved in, into the area, said for two years they're going to build relationships and take losses on jobs if they have to, just to build those relationships. And then they sucked in all of these, these key components that we need and have just paid them ungodly money.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I think you just had to outlast that. That's not your career problem. I mean, you've still got to hire the right people at the right price.

[Charlie]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's just, that's just noise over there to the side.

[Charlie]

Yep, yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

That, that can't be your motivator. It can't be what's driving your decision making. Because what they're doing is not sustainable. In five years they'll be gone or they, or they will have adjusted their sales to the prevail, to the prevailing.

[Charlie]

There's some of that going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

One of the two. And you know, like we had a local employer here that was, they came in, moved to corporate office here and they were doing the same thing. They were, they were going around to all the other people like us and they were offering more money and stealing people. They're poaching all over the place. And we kept telling our folks, guys, this is not going to last and everything. Grass is not always greener over the septic tank. Hello. And so, you know, and I mean, we had six or seven people out of our 1100 go over there and they're all gone now. They didn't stay. I think there's one over there still.

[Charlie]

Well, I have, I have two of their players.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Now. Yeah. Because it's not pleasant. It's not pleasant to work there.

[Charlie]

Right? No, no, it is. It was.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Charlie]

So.

[Dave Ramsey]

So anyway, so that's white noise to the side. We couldn't let the local poacher just determine what we pay. The marketplace determines what we pay, what the value of that position is. And so just because somebody wanted to overpay, I ridiculously that, you know, just to fill a seat over there. That's a temporary play. It doesn't play out, it doesn't work. It's not sustainable. So you have to. So anyway, that's side noise over here. I'm going to run an internal referral program. I'm going to run a sub referral program. And for that matter, if you know anybody in adjoining cities that you might talk to and just say, hey, if you know an estimator in Nashville, you mentioned Nashville. Okay. If you know an estimator there, say, you know, you might not be interested in moving down here, but anybody you send me, I'll give you 1,000 bucks.

[Charlie]

Yep, yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

That kind of stuff. And that, that's. You just need to get your grapevine moving and grease it a little bit with some money. And that's not. There's nothing wrong with that. That's perfectly ethical and not that. And, you know, if somebody sends you six good people, send them on a cruise with their wife, for God's sakes.

[Charlie]

You know, that's not a bad idea.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, that kind of stuff. I mean, because word will get out then that. That Ken wants good people and. And he has a really good way of saying thank you. Hey, folks, remember, better a weary warrior than a quivering critic. This world needs more high quality leaders, so take courage and lead. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thanks for listening to the Entree Leadership Podcast.