My Team Isn’t Happy With Changes I’m Making (Why?)

Summary

Title: Detailed Summary of "My Team Isn’t Happy With Changes I’m Making (Why?)"
Podcast: The EntreLeadership Podcast
Host: Dave Ramsey
Release Date: February 10, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of The EntreLeadership Podcast, Dave Ramsey addresses a pressing concern from business leaders: why their teams resist changes being implemented within their organizations. Drawing from his extensive 30-year experience, Dave provides actionable insights and strategies to help leaders navigate and overcome these challenges effectively.

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Caller 1: Kevin from Nashville – Overcoming Team Resistance to Structural Changes

Kevin's Situation ([00:52] - [01:56])

Kevin, the owner of a fence company based in Nashville, reaches out with concerns about his sales team resisting structural changes aimed at improving operations. Initially, his salesmen excelled in generating sales but faltered when transitioning to operational roles, leading to a disconnect between sales and installation details. Attempts to implement checklists were met with resistance, as the team felt constrained by added responsibilities.

Dave's Analysis and Advice ([01:00] - [12:17])

Dave delves into the core issue, pointing out that the resistance stems from the lack of clear benefits communicated to the team members. He emphasizes that people fear change only when they don't understand its advantages for themselves. Dave illustrates this with an analogy:

[02:44] Dave Ramsey: "People don't fear change; they fear change that they don't understand or know why we're doing it. They don't see how it benefits me."

Kevin agrees, recognizing that his sales team feels burdened by dual roles without perceiving personal gains. Dave further explains the mismatch between "hunter" salespeople, who excel at acquiring clients but not at managing projects, and the new roles Kevin is attempting to assign them.

[04:27] Dave Ramsey: "We've lost high-quality salespeople most of the time when trying to transition them into project management roles."

To address this, Dave suggests maintaining distinct roles—keeping salespeople focused on hunting for new clients while introducing dedicated project managers to handle operations. Additionally, he recommends modifying compensation structures to incentivize proper sales practices and accountability.

[10:23] Dave Ramsey: "Your pay is not just for making the sale; it's for making the sale properly."

Dave also highlights the importance of establishing robust systems for information transfer between sales and installation teams, ensuring that all project details are meticulously documented and communicated.

[12:15] Dave Ramsey: "Create a better connection between the salespeople and the installers with better gathering up front and make their pay dependent upon it."

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Caller 2: Shane from Nebraska – Challenges in Hiring and Scaling

Shane's Situation ([17:06] - [23:23])

Shane, celebrating his 10-year anniversary owning a garage door business in Nebraska, seeks advice on hiring additional technicians to support his growing revenue, which is nearing $1 million in sales. Despite a healthy profit margin of around $300,000, Shane struggles with retaining technicians, as new hires often leave within a few months.

Dave's Analysis and Advice ([17:39] - [26:14])

Dave identifies that Shane's primary challenge lies in hiring the right people—those who not only possess the technical skills but also align with the company's culture and values. He stresses the importance of treating employees as valuable team members rather than mere workers, emphasizing character and attitude alongside technical proficiency.

[20:47] Dave Ramsey: "You gotta hire somebody that can turn a wrench and have some character."

Dave advises Shane to offer competitive salaries supplemented with bonuses or profit-sharing to attract and retain quality technicians. He also underscores the necessity of being transparent about compensation structures during the hiring process to prevent future resentment.

[24:01] Dave Ramsey: "If you're not okay with that, let's go ahead and settle that now before you start to work."

Furthermore, Dave encourages Shane to foster a positive work environment where employees feel valued and integral to the company's success, thereby reducing turnover and enhancing customer satisfaction.

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Caller 3: Jay from Idaho – Best Practices for Terminating Employees

Jay's Question ([27:54] - [28:39])

Jay from Twin Falls, Idaho, with a $2 million revenue business and a team of 20, inquires about best practices for terminating employees—specifically, whether to require a two-week notice or to let them leave immediately.

Dave's Response ([28:39] - [28:39])

Dave outlines a compassionate yet firm approach to termination, emphasizing the importance of thorough documentation and multiple opportunities for improvement before deciding to let an employee go. He advises conducting private, respectful conversations and handling the process swiftly once termination becomes necessary to maintain a positive workplace environment.

[28:39] Dave Ramsey: "Terminating is a lengthy process, several conversations, several opportunities to turn things around."

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Caller 4: Brendan – Deciding Between Selling or Scaling a Software Business

Brendan's Situation ([37:37] - [47:27])

Brendan, who runs a 55-person software services business with $10 million in revenue and $47 million generated over seven years, faces a dilemma after a challenging year in 2023. He has been offered to sell his business for a deal comprising an upfront payment and an earn-out over four years. Brendan is torn between accepting the lucrative offer or continuing to scale his business, which is now profitable but has exposed leadership weaknesses.

Dave's Analysis and Advice ([37:37] - [47:27])

Dave encourages Brendan to evaluate his passion and long-term goals. He advises focusing on personal fulfillment and the challenges Brendan is willing to tackle moving forward. Highlighting the importance of choosing "which hard thing you're going to do," Dave suggests that Brendan should either continue building his business, leveraging the lessons learned from the tough year, or take the financial security offered by the sale to pursue new ventures.

[40:23] Dave Ramsey: "Choose your hard. Dr. John DeLoney says that works on our team—choose which hard thing you're going to do."

Dave emphasizes that Golden Handcuffs—commitments that financially bind someone to stay in a potentially unfulfilling role—should be avoided unless the work environment and team dynamics are highly satisfying.

[47:09] Dave Ramsey: "There's not enough money to make you enjoy sitting neck-deep in manure."

He further reassures Brendan of his capability to lead and scale his business successfully, encouraging him to make a bold decision aligned with his personal and professional aspirations.

[45:06] Dave Ramsey: "You're a stud. You're a leader. You're worth more than that."

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Conclusion

In this episode, Dave Ramsey provides profound insights into leadership challenges related to team resistance, hiring, employee termination, and strategic business decisions. His advice underscores the importance of clear communication, aligning organizational changes with individual benefits, fostering a positive and transparent work environment, and making courageous decisions that align with personal values and business goals.

By addressing real-life scenarios with practical solutions, Dave equips business leaders with the tools necessary to navigate complex leadership dynamics and drive their organizations toward sustainable growth and success.

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Notable Quotes:

• [02:26] Dave Ramsey: "People don't fear change; they fear change that they don't understand or know why we're doing it."

• [10:23] Dave Ramsey: "Your pay is not just for making the sale; it's for making the sale properly."

• [20:47] Dave Ramsey: "You gotta hire somebody that can turn a wrench and have some character."

• [24:01] Dave Ramsey: "If you're not okay with that, let's go ahead and settle that now before you start to work."

• [40:23] Dave Ramsey: "Choose your hard. Dr. John DeLoney says that works on our team—choose which hard thing you're going to do."

• [47:09] Dave Ramsey: "There's not enough money to make you enjoy sitting neck-deep in manure."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and actionable advice provided by Dave Ramsey to help business leaders overcome common leadership challenges.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

From the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions, this is the Entre leadership podcast where I take calls from leaders like you about what it takes to win in any stage of business and leadership. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host with over 30 years of experience leading in the trenches right alongside you. If you've got a question and you want to be on the show, you can fill out the [e-mail] Ask or call us and leave a message and we'll put you on the show. The number is 844-944-1070. That's 844-944-1090. Kevin is with us in Nashville. Hi, Kevin. Welcome to the Entree leadership podcast. What's up?

[Kevin]

Hey, Dave. Thank you. So I have team members that I cannot get to move forward because they're afraid of change.

[Dave Ramsey]

What is the change that we're talking about?

[Kevin]

So when I first set the business up, we have salesmen that really focus on sales. The issue is when they're turning the job in. When it gets turned into operations, there's a disconnect. So the details and the stuff that we need to be successful is not there. So we've tried to put some checklists and stuff in place that they say they don't have time for. So we're wanting to just change the structure and do like sales teams, which would turn them into field managers. And those field managers, they would focus on the customer from start to finish, and they. And they hate him.

[Dave Ramsey]

How does that benefit the salesperson that you're making into a field manager? If I'm that guy, why would I be excited?

[Kevin]

That's a good question. I think the reason why is because we can serve the customer in a better way. As far as for that person personally, that's. That's a good question. Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's what your resistance is, is that it's good. You feel like it's good for you and good for the company and good for the customer. But you haven't told them why it's good for them because you don't even know why it's good for them. Well, no wonder they don't want to do it.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

Is that right?

[Kevin]

I mean, yes, sir, it is.

[Dave Ramsey]

See, people don't fear change what they feel fear is change that does not benefit them. So if the Guy's driving a $3,000 beat up pickup truck and you pull up $100,000 Raptor in front of the building and you hand him the keys, he does not fear change. He loves change. So People don't fear change. What they fear is change that they don't understand or know why we're doing it. And they don't see how it benefits me. All this guy sees is, I used to be a salesman, now you want me to be a project manager. I'm doing twice the work and my pay got cut effectively because I was just selling and I was making good money and I'm a good salesman. But I don't really want to be a project manager. I think that's what I heard.

[Kevin]

I think you heard correctly.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, so we've done some of what you're talking about, but truthfully, most of the people that were high quality salespeople, they were not transferable over into the system you're talking about. And we lost them most of the time. And so we call it hunters or farmers. A salesman like you used to have is a hunter. All they do is kill it. They drag it up, but they don't process the meat. They just drag it to the front door and y'all take care of it from there. Then they go back out, they load their gun and go back out in the woods again. And that's a hunter type salesperson. I've done a lot of that kind of work in my early days myself. I enjoyed that kind of thing. But what you're asking them to do is not only do the kill, but now bring it into the building and process it and cook the dinner.

[Kevin]

Yes, sir, that's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And they're hunters. They don't want to be farmers. The farmer more puts in the crop, takes the crop out, cooks it, they do the whole thing. And so it may be that you're going to lose some of these people or maybe you rethink this now. One of the things I have had to do with those hunter types is they'll sell anything. So you got to put some guidelines on it. Because they were selling stuff around here in such a way that we couldn't keep up with the promises they were making.

[Kevin]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because they'll say anything, make the stinking sale if you're not careful with that type of person. Right. Not lying, but exaggerating or over promising. And then we under deliver. And that's part of what you all are experiencing now. I suspect that's why you're wanting them to get involved. Because once you see how the pizza's made, then maybe you would sell it differently is what you're wanting to have happen. Right?

[Kevin]

Right. I'm wanting some accountability for the job. Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I Agree with that. And we've run into that here too. But the reason they've not jumped on it is you've not made the sale. And the only thing you can do is go back up and attempt to make that sale. And you can fix it with changing their comp to where they can make more money if they do this the way you want them to make it. Because it shouldn't make you more money if you fix it. You're trying to fix a problem, and if you fix it, your profit should go up. I agree with what you're doing. I'm just not sure that this group of people is gonna be the one that leads. May be that you add a layer into the team and say, okay, we have a hunter on the team and then we have a project manager on the team. But the hunter has to get everything they're doing approved before they close the sale or they don't get paid. And so you've gotta sell this in the way I need it sold. Cause I can't pay you for this stuff. You're creating all these by not bringing this in here in such a way where the customer is not prepared for this. So I'll give you an example in our case that we had to really change that on. In the early days, we were selling talk radio advertising. And the salesman would go out and say, oh, it's the best thing since sliced bread. I mean, you buy ads on here, you're gonna get rich. Everything Dave Ramsey says buy, people just buy it like crazy. Well, that's just not so. Usually what happens with an ad campaign is you have to start it and it's 30 days before you make any money. So we had to reset and almost negative. Sell the customer up front and say, yeah, buy the radio ads. We want you on here and we'll make you money. But it's going to be 90 days before you're happy about it. Your first 90 days, you're going to wonder if you made a mistake or not. And if the salesman sold it that way, we would keep them. Cause they weren't pissed off after two weeks and everything didn't happen. You know what I'm saying?

[Shane]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Is that the kind of thing you're running into?

[Kevin]

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I'm running into. I am the owner of a fence company.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

And so we're more of a service base. So we really have to focus on that customer service getting the details in.

[Dave Ramsey]

So they're selling fences that you install?

[Kevin]

That we install.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's the service after the install's done?

[Kevin]

What's the service after the install is done, we do a final walk through.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's it.

[Kevin]

On the job.

[Dave Ramsey]

A year later, though, you're done.

[Kevin]

We're done.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's not a maintenance contract monthly or something like that?

[Kevin]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

So if they make the. If they make the sale, what's the disconnect when they get over. When you get over there to do the installation?

[Kevin]

The disconnect is the information on the contract. So the details on the contract may be special requests from the customers, maybe material or install details that are important. And then when we get there, we don't have all the information. Again, there's a disconnect. So it was sold up here. That person's seen the job and now.

[Dave Ramsey]

You'Re wanting them to manage the install.

[Kevin]

I'm wanting to turn them more into field managers where if the job fails, the customer would see that same person again. And then they're seeing those problems. They're able to get better at those. Because right now, the way that.

[Dave Ramsey]

How many shelter you got?

[Kevin]

We have four.

[Dave Ramsey]

What kind of money are they making?

[Kevin]

They make around. They can make 70 to 80.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right.

[Kevin]

We're residential salesmen.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're up to your neck in this and you probably know some things. I know you know some things I don't know about it. I think that you might be better off instead of making them all the way. Field managers just holding their pay until the install's complete and the customer's happy and creating some systems that says in order for the customer to be happy, you have to fill these things out. And we have to know what the customer experience is. So here's the. You know, you need some better forms and better systems for them to gather the information for the special requests, the materials, the things you're talking about that are there's a disconnect between them and the installer. And if you create a better connection between them and the installer with better gathering up front and make their pay dependent upon it. Your pay is not just for making the sale, it's for making the sale properly.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And properly making the sale means I need details on this line, this line, and this line where the installer knows exactly what's going on. And the day the job starts, you're on the job for that day, making sure that all the installers know all those details from your mouth. You spend one day on the job the day we started, and then you go back out and hunt again rather than make them Manage fence installs.

[Kevin]

So when I put those changes in place, Dave, do you feel like I need to change the pay?

[Dave Ramsey]

No, I would just fire them if they don't do it.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

This is a condition of employment. Because you're pissing our customers off. Because you thought that the only thing you had to do is make the sale and walk away. And then we're supposed to just guess at what we install over here. It's driving everybody nuts. So, boys, you're gonna write this stuff down, and you're gonna show up over there day of, and you're gonna be holding the customer's hand and holding the installer's hand. And the three of us gonna have a little meeting. We're gonna say, this is what we're putting in. All right, Break the huddle.

[Kevin]

Right?

[Dave Ramsey]

And if you don't do that, you don't get paid and you don't get to keep your job. Cause that's what selling here now means. And if they can't start doing that change, then the phrase we use around here is the centrifugal force. When you go around the corner, when you hit the corner real hard, sometimes people get thrown out of the car.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's the ones that won't make the turn. So you're gonna make this turn, or you're gonna be laying on the pavement and we're gonna drive off. And you're not quite that blunt, but that's how you have to set it in your spirit. Cause all these guys are doing is they're just promising the moon, and then they're going off hunting the stars. And the installer's left to clean up the mess.

[Kevin]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Have I got the picture?

[Kevin]

You do, yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Yeah. I think you can fix that by making a better connection without turning your salespeople into a complete install manager. But we're gonna come up, sit down together and go, this is what we're all agreeing to. And this is what we talked about when I sold them. And the installers going, okay. And we talked about putting wood there, and we talked about, this is how this is going to look. And if you run into something else, call me and I'll come back over here. If there's some kind of disruption, I'll run back by. But I'm going to spend an hour with you right here, and let's get this job started. And then you take back off. And that is the only way you get to keep your job, because it's part of making the sale properly. There's Making a sale. And then there's making the sale properly in our case. In some of our salespeople, making the sale properly includes collecting the money. We don't just take a contract and hope somebody else collects it. You gotta get the money in the door or you don't get paid. Cause no sale has occurred till the money's in my account. Until then, it's a wish, it's a dream, it's, I think I made a sale. Oh, I signed a contract. I don't care. When I see money, that's when it happened. Money is how we measure success on this stuff. Not cause we worship money, but because that's when we know it's not bull crap. So salespeople, your job is, you know, you gotta get the check in here. I can't get the check. My job's not collections. Yeah, it is. You made a sale to an unqualified customer and they don't believe that they're gonna do it. So they're not giving us the money. You didn't make the sale yet, bubba. So these are the way it sounds around here. We're probably not quite that loud, but sometimes we are. So that's how we get after this thing. It's a good question, Kevin. Thanks for letting me walk through that with you. That's very interesting. And I'm not positive the way I'm saying there's a way to do it, but I resist trying to get salespeople to manage projects. They're generally not good at it. So I kind of resist that good salespeople generally aren't good at detailed project management. It's highly unusual to find somebody's good at both. This is the Entree Leadership Podcast.

[Zach Reinert]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Talk a ton about the Entree leadership system, the small business roadmap that takes the guesswork out of growth. It includes the five stages of business. Treadmill operator, Pathfinder, Trailblazer, Peak performer and legacy builder. And the six drivers of business that drive you through the five stages. Personal growth, purpose, people plan, product and profit. We've seen this system work for tens of thousands of business owners just like you. And we want to reach even more. So we've got an exciting announcement. In February, we're going to be starting the presale of my new book, Build a business you love. The book breaks down each stage of business and the unique challenges you'll face in that stage. So you'll learn how to solve the right problems at the right time in the right way. You're gonna get a sense of relief. Cause you're gonna know where you're going. Build a business you love is the essential guide for a business owner like you who wants to grow your business the right way and leave a legacy you're proud of. If you'd like to be the first to know when the book is available for pre sale, join our interest [e-mail] build or just click the link in the description. If you're listening on YouTube or on podcast. Shane is with us in Nebraska. Hi, Shane. Welcome to the Entree leadership podcast.

[Shane]

Hi, Dave. Hey. August was my 10 year anniversary owning a garage door business that I started when I was 20 years old.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow. Good for you.

[Shane]

Yeah. We will hit a million dollars in sales this year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wow.

[Shane]

So my question I have. I need to hire help, but I don't know how much help I can afford. Yeah, you do right now? Well, right now it's me and my dad helps me two days a week.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Shane]

And we.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you made a million dollars top line. What's your. What was your profit?

[Shane]

Well, with my wage, we're going to make about 300,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

So what's it take to hire a tech?

[Shane]

Well, I just, I.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, I mean, how much does the tech cost in North Platte, Nebraska to put on?

[Shane]

Most. Most techs around here make between $1825 an hour.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Shane]

Somewhere in there.

[Dave Ramsey]

So you need 40 grand?

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

You got 300.

[Shane]

Right. I just, I want to make it a career for them.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good.

[Shane]

Makes Sense, you know, I want them to make a decent living.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. You know, you're not trying to pay them 100.

[Shane]

Right? Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you're going to pay them, you're going to pay them about market rate with some cool bonuses or something. That's another four or five grand that keep them really juicy and happy, right?

[Shane]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So we're talking 40, 45k out of your 300. What's the problem?

[Shane]

Well, I just want to make sure I'm not giving away too much of the profits, I guess.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, you got 250 left.

[Shane]

Yeah, that's true. Because, you know, a lot of it is I'm getting to the point where I just, I can't do it all by myself.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's not fun. You're a treadmill. You're stuck on the treadmill.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

If you take a vacation, there's no money, Right. You get hurt, there's no money.

[Shane]

Yep. And if I hire one, I basically need to hire two because I need to get out of the field. Well, let's start with one far behind. Right? Well, see, we've had one and that lasts about two or three or four months and then they leave. Why get fired? And, well, we just, we can't find the help we need.

[Dave Ramsey]

Let's see. Just not, not because the idea was bad, but you just hired the wrong people, right? Yeah. Hiring people is a pain in the butt.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, I'm learning that because most, most people, most people, you know, they're not worth it. You know, just because you hire somebody doesn't mean they get it. No, your hiring processes, the first few people you hire in business that stay, I mean, you build your first team of five people. That's the hardest hiring you'll ever do in your Life. I've got 1100 now and our hiring's fairly easy, but we still go through all kinds of hell just to get the right people. Because you're trying to figure out who's a donkey and who's a thoroughbred and you don't want any donkeys. You've had those and they leave. Or worse than that, they stay and don't do nothing.

[Shane]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so what you're looking, you're looking for somebody as a stud and that cares and you know, you can pay them some profit sharing or something that's worth 4,000, $5,000 on top of what the typical tech makes. And you keep talking about, hey man, you're part of the family and you take good care of them. And you know, if there's something going on with their family. You help them. I mean, you treat them like family. Right. If you get a good one. But you can't just hire somebody just because they can turn a wrench. They gotta turn a wrench and have some character.

[Shane]

Yeah. Be personable.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, you gotta hang out with them. And plus, your customers that you've worked so hard to get are gonna see em.

[Shane]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, I mean, I had a heat and air guy come to our house the other day, and this guy made me wanna do business with this heat and air company the rest of my life. He was such a great representation of that company.

[Shane]

Well, that's what makes me so nervous.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Shane]

And you know, been doing this for 10 years now. It just. That's always been my biggest fear is, is getting the job done the right way and keeping people happy.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so you got to bring them on. And you got to talk about that while you're bringing them on, before you bring them on and after they're on. And you go over there and go, this is my. Got my name on it. And I'm concerned about this. And you got to treat this like you own it. And you got to care. You're not an employee, you're a team member. You're not here to see it, mail it in and see how little work you can do. Your job is make the customer smile, make them glad they heard of Shane. That's your job. That heat and air guy, I don't know his name, but I know his company name. And I'm really glad they came to my house.

[Kevin]

Yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because this guy, he ran into a problem he didn't know how to fix. He got on the phone, got online, searched around, found a manual, figured it out, got it working, you know, And I'm like, this guy's a stud. Yeah, that's what you want, right? And you know, but you're gonna listen. That's. That's one or two out of 10 people. So you're gonna interview a lot of people and turn them away because you're gonna hear, eh, you're gonna tell they're a donkey. You're gonna hear it in the interview. All they're there is for what they can get rather than what they can give. Want people that add value, not are parasites.

[Shane]

So I have a question with that is, so if I hire one and have them ride with me, you know, and we work like crazy, you know, the problem I've had in the past is that same employee hears me, you know, I'm terrible. But I talk about money a lot in the trek. And, you know, we. I just. That's why I said before, if I had a one.

[Dave Ramsey]

What does he hear? What's he hearing? What are you hearing? You talk about.

[Shane]

Well, you know, we. We talk. Like what? Because I answer. I do everything. So we answer the phones, we take calls, we do everything. So customer, they hear me talk to customers, they hear me price things, they hear me.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's wrong with that?

[Shane]

Well, they. They start to get that attitude and.

[Dave Ramsey]

What attitude?

[Shane]

Well, the. Well, geez, he's charging that much and I'm only getting paid this much. And you know what I'm saying?

[Dave Ramsey]

Let's cover that on the front end. Like when you're interviewing, you go, okay, this is. I think we got something going here. This might work. But you need to keep in mind when you come to work here that you're going to be hearing all the pricing and everything. And I own the business. You don't. You don't. And so if I make more than you, that's okay.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's how this whole thing works. And if you're not okay with that, let's go ahead and settle that now before you start to work. Cause I'd rather you not be here.

[Shane]

Just be upfront about it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. So I've got a lady that is our controller here, and she's in her accounting department, and she's been here almost 30 years. She sees what everyone in the building makes. Cause she used to run the payroll.

[Shane]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

A whole bunch of them make more than she does. That's a recipe for jealousy, isn't it?

[Shane]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So guess what? Before. Before I hired her, and actually, she was an old friend before we hired her, and she's still. She's still a family friend, and. But before we hired her, I said, hey, you're gonna see some numbers here. And I'm making really good money, and some of our other leaders are making really good money. And can you handle that emotionally and spiritually, or are you gonna kind of start to think that, you know, somehow you caused this?

[Shane]

Yeah, that's just. That's what. I don't want to cause any resentment.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly. So I just talk about it up front. You know what?

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I've had one discussion with her in almost 30 years about this one before I hired her.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And she said, I can handle it. And she's handled it. If she didn't handle it and started acting all jealous, I'd just fire her butt, get another one. I mean, I wouldn't be quite that way. But I mean, that's the bottom line. I'm not gonna keep someone that's looking at all of our payroll and mad about it all the time. Yeah, that'd be silly. That's exactly the same thing you're worried about is they think they're that. So you're worried about a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter. If this guy you're interviewing could run a million dollar business doing garage doors, he already would be. Yeah, you're the one that knows how to do that, not him.

[Shane]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

So his job is not to run the business. That's your job. His job is to put the garage door up.

[Shane]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Just tell him that.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so you're going to hear what the pricing is on this stuff and you're going to be filling out the tickets with me and all that stuff. But obviously we make more at the company than you do. That's how we're able to pay you. If that's going to be a problem for you, then we don't need to go forward. But really it's not a problem for most people. It's more in your head than it is their. Shane.

[Shane]

Right. I just.

[Dave Ramsey]

Most people know the company they work for makes more money than they do. Most people get that because they know that the company wouldn't be able to make payroll otherwise. It's kind of common sense. So I think you're fine. I think you just haven't had enough confidence yet to lead people in this thing. And if you want to get out of this ditch that you're in, stuck on the treadmill, you're going to have to add a tech, get them trained over six months and then add another tech, get them trained over six months and then you're going to go from a million to 2 million and you're going to quit doing garage door work yourself. You're going to have techs doing it and then you're going to add an office person to help you with the accounting and order taking and phone answering so you're not doing it in the truck. And then you're gonna go to 3 million. And that's how this works. But if you keep doing this by yourself, you're gonna stay right where you are. You're gonna be stuck because you have a logistical bottleneck. You can't go any faster than you're going right now the way you've got this staffed. So you're a good dude, man. You've done a good job so far. Time to take the Next step and level up. This is the Entree Leadership Podcast. Thanks for joining us on the Entree Leadership Podcast. If you want to help us out, share the show, subscribe to the show, follow the show and leave a five star review. It's a big deal when you do those things. It helps us a bunch. Share the show, subscribe to the show, follow the show, leave a five star review. It matters. Thank you. Here's a video question we got sent in.

[Jay]

Zach Reinert, I'm from Idaho, Twin Falls, Idaho.

[Brendan]

And what's the name of your business?

[Jay]

Reinert Media.

[Brendan]

How long have you all been in business?

[Jay]

Eight years.

[Dave Ramsey]

How many team members?

[Jay]

20.

[Dave Ramsey]

And top line revenue?

[Jay]

2 million.

[Dave Ramsey]

Do you know what stage of business you're in?

[Jay]

They say I'm a peak performer, but I don't know. We'll see about that. Question for the podcast. I'd love to learn more about best practices is on when you terminate a person and notices, for example, or say they quit, do you want them to like, you know, fulfill a two week notice? Do you want to just walk them out the door? I'm sure it kind of changes based on what the issue was, but I would love to see from people that have just done it a lot more than me, I'd love to know what best practice is for letting people turn into notice or not.

[Dave Ramsey]

Good question, Zach. Okay, well, let's start with termination. Termination is a lengthy process, several conversations, several opportunities to turn things around. Unless it's an extreme situation and we don't go straight to termination. We never just walk in and fire someone unless they've done something horrendous. I mean, if they steal, we just fire them. But most of the time it's a performance issue, it's an attitude issue. It's something like that. And so there's a lot of very direct, very kind conversations in private. Brendan, our cto, taught a wonderful lesson at Entrez Master Series. Having difficult conversations and sit down with a person, say, this is going to be a difficult conversation. You're not measuring up here and I've got to help you get there. And we're going to work together to get you there. And nobody's getting fired today. But then later on you can get down to where we've been working on this for six months and you're still not getting your job done. And so we're going to have to bring this to an end. Now, once you've done all that so that no one's surprised and you've given them coaching, you've given them every opportunity to turn the situation around. And the last day is finally here. This is not a lengthy conversation. At no point in this company in 35 years have I had a one hour firing. It's about four minutes. And by the way, my stomach gets all upset because I love people. And it's a hard thing to do to let people go, even if they've, you know, because most of the time they've tried, they just couldn't turn it or they don't give a crap. And you know, I'm the only one in the room that does give a crap or whatever, but I still don't. Being fired is hard on. It's a hard. I got fired. I know what it feels like. So you don't take that lightly. If you love firing people, you're a bully, you got a problem. So all that to say we've given all kinds of opportunity. There's no surprise. We've had discussions and conversations to the point that they see it coming. And it's not unusual for me to hear people say, well, I told my wife this morning when I was coming in that this was probably my last day. And when they walk in to sit down in the room for me to let them go, we've telegraphed this. It's so obvious that this is where we're going towards because we've not been able to make the changes needed for you to stay. So we just sit down and say that and say, look, we gave it a shot and you worked real hard, but we couldn't get there. And as we talked about in the last two times we met together, the last six times we met together, whatever it is that we had to fix this, we weren't able to fix it. And so the decision's been made that this is your last day and I'm sorry and we love you and we're going to give you this package of severance and what we're going to do is I'm going to call the guy in from HR and he's going to, he's going to collect your, you know, your keys and your laptops and any electronics you have and all that kind of thing and all your passwords have been shut down already. And he's going to collect all that stuff and then you can just, he's going to walk you to the parking lot and so they just leave and you can come back and clean out your desk. When folks aren't here, you can meet an HR person so that there's no walk of Shame. We don't want to walk you down to your desk in front of everybody with a box. That's not fair. So we'll walk you out and then you can call HR back and you got some paperwork to sign in order to get the severance and you need to collect your stuff and you can come back after hours later in the week and do that. Because I know right now you just need to get home and let your spouse know what's going on. And so HR collects their stuff, walks into the parking lot, they come back, sign paperwork and they're done. It's very, very kind, very low key. There's no voices raised, there's no cussing, there's no mean spirit. It's just quick, surgical. Then as far as handling someone giving notice, 90 something percent, 95, 98% of the time someone gives notice here, they give note, they give us a nice two week notice, which they should. That's classy. That's the right thing to do, is to give a good notice. But we almost never have someone walk it out. We appreciate that gesture on their part. That's nice of them. They took another job, they're getting whatever. But my theory is when your spirit leaves the building, your body should go with it. And so you left. Why let the zombie hang around? It's a zombie employee. And so no, it doesn't work. And by the way, very few people that stay during the two weeks have a lot of wonderful things to say. They left for a reason, some sort of dissatisfaction. And it's a very unusual person that can say only positive things during working out their notice. So why let them stay and poison the other people that are here? Well, I left because they don't pay. I left cause George is an idiot as the leader. And they can't keep from saying stuff. It's just very difficult. And so, you know, okay, I hate it, I don't want you to leave, but I understand. And so, and even if they're leaving for a good reason, like they're getting married and they're moving to Oklahoma or something, you know, that's a good reason to leave. You know, it's not cause they're upset with the company in any way, you still don't have two week notice. The only time we keep someone longer than 12 hours after their notice is if they have particular knowledge of something that needs to get transferred before they leave. And that can almost always be done in two or three days. The number of times we've had someone actually sit in the seat and work out. An entire notice is almost zero, very close to zero. So we don't keep them around when, you know, they can't. Most of the time, they can't keep from saying something negative. There's no accountability anymore. They're unplugged, and it shows. They're no longer part of the team. They've joined another team. And so it's in the spirit. You can feel it in the air. So when you give notice, we pretty well generally make that your last day. Cause when your spirit leaves, your body should go with you. Now, we're not mad about it, but there's a lot of reasons for it, and I just gave them to you. So, again, very surgical, very kind. Thank you for the notice. That's very nice. We'll pay you through the two weeks, by the way you gave the notice. We'll pay you through the two weeks, but there's no need for you to come back. We'll go ahead and collect your keys and your electronics and so forth today and shut down your passwords and so, you know, you're not into our systems anymore in any way after that. And, you know, I've had very few times that that upsets someone, but honestly, if it upsets you, why are you leaving? I don't understand. That's kind of dumb. So it's just that that tells me more about that person than it does about the idea. The idea is really clean. When things are done, they're done. Season's over. I'm not leaving, so I gotta get back to work. You know, I mean, that's how this works, y'all. So not any harder than that. Good question, though, Zach. Good question. Well done, sir. Appreciate you joining us. This is the Entre leadership podcast. Running a business is freaking hard. It's easy to get caught up in the daily challenges and fears that keep you stuck. That's why I want you to reserve your copy of our new book, build a business you love, where we share the proven system that helped us break through those challenges and build a $250 million company in the process. When you pre order today, you're going to get more than $350 in bonuses for free, including an enhanced audiobook experience, early access to the build a business you love ebook, and instant access to our hiring playbook. So you can start transforming your business right now. To reserve your copy and to get these special bonuses, you gotta place your pre order on our [e-mail] build or click the link in the description if you're listening on YouTube or on a podcast. Thank you for joining us on the Entree leadership Podcast. Jay's with us in Atlanta. Hi, Jay. Welcome to the show. How can I help?

[Brendan]

Good afternoon, Dave. Thanks for taking my call.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure.

[Brendan]

So I run a 55 person services business that I started about seven years ago and I'm the founder, the sole founder of the company. I'm in a position to where so the way the business came about is again, seven years ago, I took a $10,000 bonus check, quit my job, threw it into a bank account, and my awesome wife bankrolled us to really start this business. And over the years I've managed to get to again, 10 million top line. We're running at about, I'd say 15% EBIT total. We've generated about $47 million in the past seven years we've been in business. And so the challenge I have is 2023 kind of kicked me in the teeth. And it was good. I needed that because it helped uncover some deficits sort of in the company. But it also really just took the wind out of my sails.

[Dave Ramsey]

Right.

[Brendan]

It put me in a position to where I was just down on myself and just generally in a bad mood. Luckily, I was able to pull through that with some mentors. But at the same time, it still sort of L in 24 has been better. Much, much better. But at the same time, it's one of those things that I don't know, I'm trying to get past it. And so as of right now, what.

[Dave Ramsey]

Is it you're trying to get past?

[Brendan]

Just the feeling of, I think maybe that's it. Just getting kicked in the teeth and losing money for the first time and then walking into 24, which has gone pretty well. But where I'm at now is I have an offer on the table to buy the business. And so there's really two, two paths here that I can take and I'd love your perspective on it. One path is I continue to try and build this business and sort of dig myself out of it. And the other is to take the offer, which is about 1x revenue, which for me is more money than I would ever need to live on for the rest of my life. But the challenge there is now I'm going back into industry.

[Shane]

Right.

[Brendan]

I now have a boss. I have people that I have to.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, you're going to have to remain on the job.

[Shane]

Yeah.

[Brendan]

So it's a four year payout. Right. So I'd have an earn out over four years. And the earn out's really nice, don't get me wrong. But at the same time I'm kind of going back into what I left.

[Dave Ramsey]

Wait a minute, they're not giving you 10 million up front?

[Brendan]

No, it would be 4 up front with EBIT payouts over the course of the remainder of the four years that I would be in those golden handcuffs.

[Dave Ramsey]

That sounds like hell.

[Brendan]

It does, to be completely frank. But you know, I mean, I grew up in a trailer in North Georgia.

[Dave Ramsey]

So man, like, I don't care. I didn't mean you need to go to hell.

[Brendan]

That's, that's fair. So then the alternative then is, is just digging my heels in and, and trying to, to power through sort of.

[Dave Ramsey]

Alternatives, negotiate a better deal.

[Shane]

Okay, okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

How about eight and I walk away?

[Brendan]

Okay, I think that sounds interesting. So then what are you going to.

[Dave Ramsey]

Do with your life after you sell your company?

[Brendan]

That's a great question. I've, I've thought about that and at this point I don't really know.

[Dave Ramsey]

I can't stop.

[Shane]

Right.

[Brendan]

I've been a builder.

[Dave Ramsey]

My.

[Brendan]

Who. I left my previous job to build this business. So I'm, it's.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, I mean you got $8 million in your pocket in my scenario and you're free, right. You walk away from the closing table, you go on a month long cruise somewhere and then you come back and go, okay, now what am I going to do? How old are you?

[Brendan]

I am 42.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, yeah, you need something to do and I take my $8 million. I, you know, put some of it in investments, I give some of it, I enjoy some of it and I, and I set two or three or four aside to start the next thing. Now what's that going to, what are you going to do? You can't, you're not, you're going to have a non compete, you're not going to be able to go back into this industry. That's not fair. I wouldn't do that. Right, but the things you've learned in this industry, what could you do?

[Brendan]

Probably be an independent consultant. I think rebuilding a business probably wouldn't work out, but certainly. Why leaning into, well, I guess I could do a SaaS business or something else. So we're in software engineering, so pretty much I could do anything I wanted.

[Shane]

Right.

[Brendan]

I could go get a job at some random company just building software.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I don't think that's you either. You didn't even like that when you said it, did you?

[Brendan]

Not really.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Brendan]

And that's kind of where I'm at, like, I'm. I'm. I'm fighting through. I think in my heart of hearts, I really do want to just keep going.

[Shane]

Right.

[Brendan]

But the challenge is there's. There's a lot of opportunity on the other side. And I'm trying to weigh what are the pros and cons of taking the deal versus just continuing to build the business, and I don't want to.

[Dave Ramsey]

What you need to take off the table is there's no easy button, right?

[Brendan]

For sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

Let's just choose which hard thing we're going to do. A new hard thing or the old hard thing with the lessons we learned in 23. Because you now, once someone is stretched to the level you've stretched to, you cannot return to the same shape again. I mean, you can bring up the trailer, North Georgia, if you want, but you're not that guy anymore, right? You're no longer him. I'm no longer the little redneck kid from Antioch, Tennessee. I've run a $300 million business, and so my brain and my emotions and my spirit are now stretched to that size. And if I was doing something that was 15 or $20 million, I would feel completely bored out of my gourd. And so once you've stretched to that, you've stretched to that. And so unless you intentionally want to slow down or something, but that's different. But you're only 42, so, I mean, going fishing or golfing for the rest of your life is a long life. You don't want to do that for sure. Let's start back there, then choose a hard thing. And the hard thing is which new thing I'm going to start, or I'm going to take this thing and I'm going to go, I got some scars here. That year sucked. I got a couple of those years in this business. I've been doing this 35. If I never saw another year like 2020, I'd be real happy. I hate 2020. I hate anything having to do with the year 2020. I've got PTSD from the year 2020, you know, so, you know, now what am I gonna do with that? Well, it doesn't mean I quit running Ramsey. It just means I take the stuff that was that much manure and I grow something with it, right? So I learned what I did, learn a lot of positive lessons about me and about our organization during those whackadoodle times. And so now I know what we can do if Wackadoodle shows up again. And also know what we can do when there's prosperity out there in the marketplace instead of weirdness and craziness and so you know all that. So, yeah, I mean, we all have those things. It's just a matter of choose your hard. DeLoney says, right. Dr. John DeLoney, that works on our team, choose which hard thing you're gonna do. So I'm either gonna sit down and say, all right, what is it that you did not. By the way, let me help you with this. You took some blows, you got kicked in the face, but you did not lose your confidence. You just realized now you're not invincible. And before you thought you were invincible. People that lost their confidence don't carry themselves like you have on this call.

[Brendan]

I think that's fair because, I mean, man, it was.

[Kevin]

It was.

[Brendan]

It was a good. It was a bad year, but it was a good year because it uncovered all of the weaknesses, frankly, that I had as a leader. It's like I was a peacetime.

[Dave Ramsey]

And now you're not that guy anymore ever again. It's like, I try to. I've done so many stupid things. My only goal is to not do the same stupid things. Because if you don't do the same stupid things, if you put enough stupid things in the rearview mirror, people start calling you wise. And that's kind of what you do. You know, you just had a year of. You went to. You get paid tuition to the School of dadgum leadership. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It was a hard year. But the things that you learned that year will take this to a $20 million business if you keep doing it and you keep growing and keep learning and keep getting bigger and better and don't be the lid on the business and so on. So you're either gonna stay and take those things and say, all right, yes, that hurt. But the pain of that year does not invalidate me, and it does not invalidate this business system and this business that I've grown. And it does not mean we can't take it to 20 million and then to. Cause I actually think this is probably a $50 million business just listening to you. And I don't even know that much about it. I can just feel it talking to you. Okay? So I think you can go do that. But if you want to. If you don't want to, you can take 8 million and then take 3 of the 8 million and go start something new and take that to 50. But one of those two things is what you need to do. You don't need to go get a job. That's not you. Every time you said it, it sounded like you were at a little throw up in your mouth.

[Brendan]

For sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Am I incorrect?

[Brendan]

No, I think you are. And the, the wisdom really resonates on both sides, right? Taking the money and going and doing something else, even to a degree sounds like it might not be.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's still a courageous act, right? That's still an act of a stud that grew a 10 million dollar company. That's not, you know, I'm just going to go work for somebody. I'm just going to go hide, dude, you know, you're just better than that.

[Brendan]

And I'm afraid I would just get so bored even if you would take that too.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you would look at them making dumber mistakes than you made in 23, going, why the crap am I working for that idiot? That's what's going to happen about six months in because you're working for some corporate goob who hadn't even got his. He doesn't even know. He can't find his butt from both hands, you know.

[Brendan]

So what experience.

[Dave Ramsey]

Go ahead.

[Brendan]

Sorry to interrupt you. What experience have you had with, with sort of again, so stock options on.

[Shane]

A sale like that?

[Brendan]

Because one of the things they put, and I'm sure you've seen this before, one of the things that they put in front of people when you're talking to PE or any sort of investment firm is, okay, so we're going to give you some amount of stock that in five years turns into $90 million. I understand that's funny money, right? It's not real unless I perform and the rest of the company performs. What's your opinion on that? How have you seen that work out?

[Dave Ramsey]

It obviously can, and especially in the software world. But the only way it works out is if you want to work there in that environment. And I don't think you're that guy. I might be wrong. I've just talked to you for a few minutes. I've been wrong before, so maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think you're that guy. I think while you're sitting there and waiting on this little bit of stock to go to 90 million, you're going to have a really hard four or five years. Emotionally, it sounds like, I don't know if you think it's going to be fun to work with a new team and get in there and help them grow something. And you know that, that funny money is extra money. You know, you got 8 million and then you got some funny money for the other 2 million or whatever, that's fine, but I'm not doing a four year payout and I'm trapped. That deal you got on the table, that's a. That's a walker. I'm walking on that one. No, thanks. I'm definitely going to continue run this business before I take the deal that's on your table. But you can keep messing with it and fine tune the deal to where it starts to be fun. But here's your rule of thumb on this whole thing. There's not enough money to make you enjoy sitting neck deep in manure. That's the thing you gotta remember. And so, because you can talk yourself into sitting neck deep in manure if there's $90 million on there. But it won't be long before all you know is there's manure. You forgot about the 90 million. There's not enough money to do that. And so in any deal, money does not make a bad deal suddenly become fun or a bunch of goofballs suddenly become awesome people. They're goofballs. They're goofballs that now you're having to hang around with to get your money. No. So only if the people and the process and the company culture and all those kinds of things are right, do those deals work out. But you're not gonna. You're not gonna be happy in a situation where you're having the deal where you just have to tolerate this to get my check. That's what golden handcuffs are. And you don't know. Nobody should sign up for golden handcuffs. They're one of the least fun things on the planet. Jay, I think you're a stud. I got a feeling you're gonna take this company to 50 million. You might take 8 million and walk, though. Either one's okay with me. I'll still be your friend. But don't sit there and wait on them to pay you later. You're worth more than that, remember? Better a weary warrior than a quivering critic. This world needs more high quality leaders. So take courage and lead. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thanks for listening to the Entree Leadership Podcast.