Over 100 Years of Leadership Advice in 97 Minutes

Summary

The EntreLeadership Podcast: “Over 100 Years of Leadership Advice in 97 Minutes”

Date: September 18, 2025
Host: Ramsey Network (Dave Ramsey)
Guests: John Maxwell, Patrick Lencioni, Ken Coleman (moderator)
Main Theme: A masterclass in leadership featuring candid discussions from three of the most respected voices in leadership. Topics range from building trust, organizational health, motives, communication, promoting leaders, groundedness, faith, failure, and more—sprinkled with humor, authenticity, and practical stories.

---

Episode Overview

This unique episode brings together Dave Ramsey, John Maxwell, and Patrick Lencioni—each with decades of leadership and coaching experience—for an unscripted, in-depth roundtable. Drawing on their collective wisdom, they reflect on the timeless and emerging challenges of leadership, sharing practical principles, memorable stories, and actionable advice. Ken Coleman moderates, guiding the discussion through communication, promotion, trust, vulnerability, and faith.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Love of Work Drives Wealth

[02:23] Ken Coleman introduces Ramsey Solutions’ study showing millionaires who love their work have 58% higher net worth.

• Dave Ramsey [02:54]: “It’s hard to be good at something that you hate.”
• John Maxwell [02:58]: “No one ever quit doing something they’re good at. … The passion is in loving your work.”
• Patrick Lencioni [04:19]: “Calluses are fine when you’re doing what you… You want to get calluses doing the thing that you like. It doesn’t feel like a punishment. It feels like a trophy.”

Key Insight: Passion drives creativity, persistence, and success. But, as Maxwell warns, “Do what you love” must be grounded in actual talent—make your hobby your vocation only if you’re truly skilled.

---

2. The Danger of Misplaced Promotions

[07:11] Discussion shifts to promoting high performers into leadership roles—often without regard for their desire or skill to actually lead.

• John Maxwell [07:40]: “It’s like taking the best salesman on the lot and making him a manager of sales. … He doesn’t manage well, he just sells.”
• Dave Ramsey [08:14]: “We confuse the fact that they’re good at sales… That makes them good at leading. It’s two different skillsets.”
• Patrick Lencioni [13:43]: Shares about Russ Carroll, who declined a leadership role: “That would be leukemia to my spirit.”

Key Insight: Desire and aptitude for leadership are separate from technical skills. Promotion should match the person’s intrinsic motives (“large and in charge” vs. serving others) and be confirmed by their ability to develop others, not just excel individually.

---

3. How to Assess (and Develop) New Leaders

[10:07] On practical steps for assessing a high performer’s true potential as a leader.

• John Maxwell [10:07]: “Never promoted a person until they had trained their replacement. … Work yourself out of a job, I’ll give you another one.”
• Patrick Lencioni [11:21]: “I would go find out what their motive for wanting to be that leader is.”
• Dave Ramsey [11:36]: “Am I wanting to be large and in charge or am I wanting to serve?”

Key Insight: Promotion should reward those who can “reproduce themselves”—train and mentor others. Motive matters: Service-based leadership is authentic; positional or self-centered leadership fails over time.

---

4. Honest Self-Knowledge and Managing for Uniqueness

[15:01] Lencioni reflects on his own mistakes promoting others based on what he would like, not what the person wants or needs.

• Patrick Lencioni [15:01]: “You need to manage…promote people based on who they are, not who we would be if we were in their situation.”

Key Insight: Leaders must avoid projecting their preferences or career trajectory onto others.

---

5. Motive: The Foundation for Real Leadership

[17:20] What is the mandatory motive for leading?

• John Maxwell [17:22]: “Leadership is either the nicest thing that ever happens to a group of people or… the worst… You have to have leadership skills… but I think also good values.”
• Maxwell on the true test [19:14]: “If I see more than you and I see before you, I can win. Now the question is, when I know I can win, what am I gonna do with that? Am I gonna make a decision to win for you, or…for me?”

Key Insight: Servant leadership—motivated by advancing others, not personal gain—is indispensable. “The irony is the best way for you to win is to cause them to win.” (Dave Ramsey [19:52])

---

6. The Reality of Suffering and Sacrifice in Leadership

[20:40]

• Patrick Lencioni: “If you’re not willing to suffer more for the benefit of those other people… there are moments in every leader, lots of them, where you’re like, this stinks. But it’s for them…”
• John Maxwell [21:18]: “There are no two good consecutive days in a leader’s life.”

Key Insight: Leadership is not about comfort; it demands personal sacrifice for the benefit of others.

---

7. Building Trust in an Age of Distrust

[23:24] On trust in teams and organizations.

• Patrick Lencioni: “They need to know that you’re most interested in their benefit. … Go to good organizations… people trust leadership there.”
• Dave Ramsey [24:44]: “Proof has to be in the pudding… you’re gonna put their best interest at heart when you’re making a decision, whether or not they understand it at the moment.”

John Maxwell’s “Three Questions Followers Ask Leaders”
[27:48]:

1. Do you like me?
2. Can you help me?
3. Can I trust you? (“The last one comes last. But it’s the deepest of all leadership.”)

Key Insight: Trust is earned over time, never instant. Without liking and competence, trust cannot grow.

---

8. Communication: Do’s and Don’ts for Leaders

[34:40]
John Maxwell:

• Don’t communicate aspirations that stretch people outside their talent.
• “One of the things leaders understand is…their limits and their people's limits…”
• Best Message vs. Big Message [45:44]: “Your best message is the message at that moment… your big message is who you are.”

Patrick Lencioni [38:15]: “Don’t affirm somebody in something that’s not good for them.”

Dave Ramsey:

• “To be unclear is to be unkind.” [40:09]
• Don’t communicate in anger; wait out strong emotion.

Key practicals:

• Ask questions out of curiosity, not manipulation.
• Anticipate objections—empathize and make it safe to share concerns. ([44:41])

---

9. Keeping Leaders Grounded: Family, Faith, and Humility

[62:51 / 65:20]

• Patrick Lencioni: “No leader can make their leadership more important than [faith, marriage, family]. … I used to come home…these people don’t care if I just gave a speech… and that is such a good thing.”
• John Maxwell: “My personal definition of success is very simple. Those who know me the best love and respect me the most.” ([66:06])
• Dave Ramsey: “I have the benefit of having become wealthy in my 20s and losing everything I own… Meeting God on the way up, getting to know him on the way down. … I just don’t care what you think.” ([67:57])

Key Insight: True groundedness comes when identity is detached from public accolades and rooted in relationships and faith.

---

10. Failure, Growth, and Resilience

[74:32]

• Patrick Lencioni: “I live my life to avoid failure, which is a bad way to live. You want to live for love of something, not from fear of something.”
• John Maxwell: “You can go from failure to success, but you can’t go from excuses to success. You can’t do it.” ([82:46])
• Dave Ramsey: “I want people failing regularly because it creates progress… You want failures, but you want non-fatal failures.” ([80:31])

Key Insight: All significant personal growth involves failure, but failure must lead to learning, adjustment—not excuse-making or self-protection.

---

11. Faith As the Foundation

[85:03]

• Patrick Lencioni: “He is everything.”
• John Maxwell: “If I could only do one thing in life, I would share my faith… My first responsibility in sharing my faith is to add value to people so that I connect with them.”
• Dave Ramsey: “I’m just that stinking grateful. I’m just that in awe of. He could take that hillbilly kid and do the stuff he’s done.”

Key Insight: Their deep faith isn’t compartmentalized but fully integrated into their leadership, providing hope, peace, and an unshakable foundation.

---

Notable Moments & Quotes

• John Maxwell [05:42]: (On “do what you love”) “I love, I’m passionate about golf… but I’m not any good at it. If you love something you’re not good at, don’t make it a career. Make it a hobby.”
• Patrick Lencioni [13:43]: (On role fit) “That would be leukemia to my spirit.”
• Dave Ramsey [40:18]: “To be unclear is to be unkind.”
• John Maxwell [21:18]: “There are no two good consecutive days in a leader’s life.”
• Maxwell [27:48]: (Followers’ questions) “Do you like me? Can you help me? Can I trust you?”
• Pat Lencioni [91:29]: (On faith communities) “I don’t think most Christians are not like that. I think most Christians agree with you. … Sometimes we can too easily go, well, most Christians are not good at this. … I just want to say… I don’t think it rings true.”
• Maxwell [82:46]: “You can go from failure to success, but you can’t go from excuses to success.”
• Dave Ramsey [96:58]: “Only God. … I’m just that in awe… that he could take that hillbilly kid and do the stuff he’s done.”

---

Highlighted Segments & Timestamps

- The Three Essential Follower Questions ([01:16], [27:48])

- Wealth & Loving Your Work ([02:23]-[03:35])

- The “Peter Principle” Problem ([07:11]-[08:26])

- How to Assess Leader Motive ([10:07]-[12:41])

- The Pain & Sacrifice of Leadership ([20:40]-[22:46])

- Building Trust in Distrusting Times ([23:24]-[29:41])

- Communication Do’s & Don’ts ([34:40]-[43:49])

- Groundedness & Definition of Success ([65:20]-[67:21])

- The Faith Foundation ([85:03]-[96:58])

- Failure & Failing Forward ([74:32]-[84:18])

---

Final Takeaways & Tone

Throughout the conversation, the trio model vulnerability (“I live my life to avoid failure…”), humor (“If you read comments after stuff, you know why some species eat their young…”), and mutual respect—often playfully poking at one another’s personalities. Their approach is honest, unvarnished, and rooted in deep conviction:

“The irony is that the best way for you to win is to cause them to win.”
—Dave Ramsey ([19:52])

“Trust is the greatest relationship that a leader can have with his people. But it’s the last relationship you get—it’s not the first.”
—John Maxwell ([32:51])

“He is everything.”
—Patrick Lencioni ([85:48])

---

For Listeners

This episode is not just a highlight reel of leadership principles but a behind-the-scenes look at how three world-class leaders think, grow, and lead with humility, candor, and faith. Whether you’re running a business, leading a team, or guiding a family, these insights offer enduring wisdom for every stage of your leadership journey.

Transcript

[John Maxwell]

Foreign.

[Dave Ramsey]

Hey folks, Dave Ramsey here. And today on the Entree Leadership Podcast, we're doing something a little bit different. I do a lot of interviews, but this one was special. I recently joined my friend Ken Coleman's show Front row Seat. And if you're a leader, this is one you don't want to miss. For the very first time, I sat down with Ken and two of the best minds in leadership, John Maxwell and Patrick Lencioni, for a conversation you will not hear anywhere else. We dug into the principles that every leader needs to know how to build trust, lead with clarity and multiply your impact. John shared incredible wisdom on influence. Pat unpacked the importance of organizational health. And and I got to talk about the lessons I've learned leading Ramsey Solutions for decades. It's packed with insights that you can start applying today. So if you've ever wanted a front row seat to a master class on leadership from the most trusted voices out there, this is it. Enjoy.

[John Maxwell]

Three questions that followers ask of their leaders. First question is, do you like me? Number two, can you help me? And the last one is the deepest of all leadership.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Don't affirm somebody in something that's not good for them. Anticipate people's objections, but you have to ask. You can't say, I know what you're thinking, but you can go, hey, if I were you, I might be worried about this or this or this. Is there anything else I'm missing that's a vulnerable thing?

[Ken Coleman]

That's gold.

[Dave Ramsey]

There are folks that are wounded and they're not going to trust no matter what happens. So the best thing you can do there is don't hire them.

[John Maxwell]

Dave Ramsey, John Maxwell, Patrick Lencioni.

[Patrick Lencioni]

For the first time, three of the.

[John Maxwell]

Most trusted voices in leadership meet for.

[Patrick Lencioni]

A conversation you won't hear anywhere else. It's a masterclass on building trust, leading.

[John Maxwell]

With clarity, and multiplying your impact. I've never had a person tell me the most important lesson I ever learned. Life that didn't have failure in it. You can go from failure to success, but you can't go from excuses to success. You can't do it.

[Patrick Lencioni]

The CEO of a company got caught on camera at a concert with a woman that wasn't his wife. And everybody thinks it's kind of funny cuz they commented on it and it's, it's all over the Internet. I feel so bad for that man.

[Ken Coleman]

Because we recently did the largest study at Ramsey Solutions of net worth millionaires over 10,000. And one of the really interesting pieces of Data that jumped out, millionaires who identified as loving their work. They genuinely love the work. They did report a 58% higher net worth than those that didn't. I wanted you all to comment on that. Why you think that data bears out that way.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's hard to be good at something that you hate.

[John Maxwell]

You're right, Dave. No one ever quit doing something they're good at. You quit what you're bad at. I mean, that's where the passion. The passion is in loving your work. And the passion is what makes the work great. An indifferent person doesn't do much as far as changing people's lives or anything else. It's gotta be somebody that really cares.

[Ken Coleman]

And what's interesting, we don't teach that specifically in high schools and colleges. It's just go get a degree so you can get a good job. And so many people wonder why they can't break through and become wealthy.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, there's a part of it that's taught. I mean, what happens is passion increases your creativity.

[John Maxwell]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because you lean in, you're practicing, you're working, you hone your craft. Like all of us do work on stage for decades. And thank God, we're much better now than when we started. We've honed it over the years.

[John Maxwell]

Could be worse.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so. Yeah, and so there's some of it in the old days, sucked bad. But. Yeah, but we've worked on that. Cause we all three enjoy the interaction with the live audience.

[John Maxwell]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so that the creativity increases with the passion. But what is taught loosely in the last couple of generations is follow your passion. And our friend Mike Rowe just really gets ticked off about that. Cause it doesn't include calluses.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Well, and calluses are fine when you're doing what you. You know, everybody gets calluses. You want to get calluses doing the thing that you like. It doesn't feel like a punishment. It feels like a trophy. When I was a kid, really early in my life, thank God for this. I remember I found a book called do what you love and the money will follow. Now, I wasn't raised that way. My mom and dad didn't go to college. And so it was just all about, you get benefits and you make enough money to buy a house. But I remember when I went out and started my own company, my dad, God rest his soul, said, oh, but Pat, you're an executive and you have benefits and don't do this. I was like, dad, I gotta do what I love. Later on, he was like, yeah, that was the right thing. But we have to teach. I had a kid come to me the other day who's a freshman in college and he goes, I want to go into full time ministry when I get out of school, but I want to get a college degree in something that'll help me in that and maybe that if I need to work, because St. Paul had to make tents in.

[Dave Ramsey]

Order to do that.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And I said, what are you studying? He said, finance. And, and I looked at his Myers Briggs and his working genius and everything else. I was like, you're going to hate that. And he goes, yeah, I'm not interested in it. I said, don't do that.

[Ken Coleman]

Right.

[Patrick Lencioni]

He changed his major.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Ken Coleman]

Well, the flip side of this is John was talking about talent. You were talking about talent, doing things that you're good at. When you hear that phrase, follow your passion, a lot of people miss that and they'll go for something that they love, but they have no talent in it at all.

[John Maxwell]

100%. Let me be contrarian here because I think, because we've all heard, you know, do what you love and it's going to be, everything's going to be wonderful. I don't think that's true. I think it's a little overrated really. I mean, I love, I'm passionate about golf, but I have a problem. In fact, the problem showed up the other day when a guy looked at me, said, you only have one problem with your golf game. I kind of got excited. I thought, one, anybody can handle one. I said, well, what is it? He said, well, you're too close to your ball after you hit it.

[Patrick Lencioni]

You.

[John Maxwell]

Know, well, crap, I'm not going. That's not going to help me. You know what I'm saying? You're too close. Well, but am I passionate about it? Do I love it? Of course I love it, but I'm not any good at it. And I tell people, if you love something you're not good at, don't make it a career.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Right.

[John Maxwell]

Make it a hobby.

[Patrick Lencioni]

In fact, you can destroy the love of a hobby by trying to make it a career. When people say do what you love, I, I think it comes down to micro. Like what kind of work in the moment, do you enjoy talking to people? There's a whole, you can apply that in a whole. It's not about. Because I talk to young, really young kids and I said, what do you want to do? And they're like, I want to make video games. No, you want to play video games and get paid for it. So I totally agree. It's not, what hobby do you love? It's like, what kind of stuff do you like to do? Will Guidara, your friend, loves cooking. Well, he made a career out of it. But that's not for everybody.

[Ken Coleman]

Well, let's talk about leadership for a second. Because the natural progression, certainly in the American workplace, is you get promoted two, maybe three times, and then what happens is they promote you into some type of a management leadership role, and you don't really want it. You're not committed to leading people, you don't enjoy it, yet you've got this pressure to say yes to the promotion. Let's talk to leaders who come could be honest with themselves and go, I don't enjoy this. What do you say to them?

[John Maxwell]

I give an A for honesty.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Me too.

[John Maxwell]

It's like taking the best salesman on the lot and making him a manager of sales.

[Dave Ramsey]

Right.

[John Maxwell]

And all of a sudden you find out that he doesn't manage well, he just sells.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And you lost your best salesperson.

[John Maxwell]

You lost your best salesperson, and you're paying him a lot more than you need to be paying him for that whole process. I've always said, let the growth of what you're in determine what you're. What your benefits are going to be and your blessings are going to be. And sometimes promotion is really not a promotion at all if it takes you out of your gift zone for sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, the mistake we make in business is that we confuse the fact that they're good at sales. Yes. And we thought that makes them good at leading. It's two different skill sets.

[John Maxwell]

Two different.

[Dave Ramsey]

Completely different skill sets. And so if you're going to move that person, they have to have a desire to learn how to become a leader, because now they got to put the training wheels back on. They don't know what the flip they're doing. And, you know, it's the same thing. We get confused. Like, because someone is in a movie, we think that we're. They think we're supposed to care what they think about life.

[John Maxwell]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

And, you know, it's the same thing. It's a wrong skill set.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

You're in a movie, which means you learn to play someone else.

[John Maxwell]

You act well.

[Dave Ramsey]

You don't even play yourself. You play someone else. And now I'm supposed to care what you think about politics. I couldn't.

[John Maxwell]

And how do we know whether you're speaking for you or for someone else?

[Dave Ramsey]

So, yeah, I think you know, so, yeah, we've done this with tech guys on our team. Tech Guys, they want to lead a squad because they're great at writing code. Well, that's a whole different skill set. So you got to go. You got to lean into the new skill set if you're going to do that, to be a leader. So you can choose. But leadership. I mean, we all three teach leadership. And so it's a skill. And I've heard you say this, and I've stolen it from you a long time ago, that there are no born leaders. You go to the hospital, they say it's a little boy, little girl. They never say it's a leader.

[John Maxwell]

No, that's right. No born leaders.

[Ken Coleman]

Tactically, I think it's crazy not to have the three of you weigh in. Leaders of organizations and teams are watching and listening, and they feel that pressure to promote a high performer. And they feel like, hey, I've done that before. Tactically speaking, you guys have taught, written about leadership training. What do they do in the moment to practically assess whether or not this high performer does have what it takes just from a chemistry makeup and then be trained to lead? How do they know that this person's got it?

[John Maxwell]

Well, I'm not sure. You always know. I've had a lot of ones I knew, and when I put them where I thought they should be, I knew that I shouldn't have done it. So I'm not sure. You always know. I think somebody just has it pat. But I'll tell you what I do know. I know in promoting people, and I've done this for many, many years, I've never promoted a person until they had trained their replacement. Because one of the things I learned to do is don't promote somebody and get a vacancy, that you have to go find somebody. And so what happens is, when you promote a person that has reproduced themselves, what you do know is that they have the ability to develop somebody. You don't know if they have the ability to develop a lot of people. But my whole thing has always been work yourself out of a job. If you work yourself out of a job, I'll give you another one. But if you can't work yourself out of the job, you have pretty much, I'm gonna take it away from you. Because the way to reproduce leaders is to reproduce people that are under you. And that's how you kind of find. If they can't reproduce one, I wouldn't put them in position to reproduce some more. I mean, let's just find out. Start with one and see if it's any good or not.

[Patrick Lencioni]

You know, I'M kind of sitting here thinking, gosh, I should know the answer to this question. The first thing I would do though, about I would go find out what their motive for want to be that leader is.

[Dave Ramsey]

Am I wanting to be large and in charge or am I wanting to serve?

[John Maxwell]

That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that's your latest book, motive.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And the why. So. But usually that's got to. For me, that's been someone that's emotionally immature. They might be young or they might be old, but they're at least emotionally immature because they're wanting it for selfish reasons. Because leadership that isn't service based. John Maxwell. All that you know is, is not real leadership.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Right. You know what's interesting though? Sometimes an organization creates a culture where they actually celebrate their leaders, which is upside down. Like that's, that's what success looks like. And it's like, no, you should celebrate the people that are contributing the most. Not. And the leader's job is to do that. So if you've created a culture where becoming a leader is seen as successful and more important, then you're actually gonna attract those emotionally immature people. So I would say first, like, does this person think I'm gonna think they're more important if I promote them? Secondly, do they really wanna do the job of managing? Do you want to sit and listen to people's issues? Do you wanna work them out? Do you wanna coach people? And if they're interested in the title, not the actual work, do not do that.

[John Maxwell]

I agree.

[Ken Coleman]

Well, that's back to where we started.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, they're going to be mean. Yeah, yeah. The opposite of that. Was the very first guy I ever hired. And I think all, I think everybody knows him in, in this row was a guy named Russ Carroll. And Russ had been in ministry and he'd been on the Jesus film project back in the day. Oh, my Jesus film project. And so he came to work for me probably 30 plus years ago. And he worked for us for about 13 years and retired. But Russ came in, his first job, the very first guy I ever hired was doing financial coaching, counseling, one on one. And so as we grew, you know, he'd been with me and he was the first guy. I'm like, I want to reward the guy. I want to give you the opportunity. And so we had like other counselors now on board and we had to have somebody lead the counselors. And we had a counseling department that developed with a P and L. And I said, russ, you need to be like head of the counseling department. And he goes, you mean that I have to take care of all these people and I have to do the P and L and I have to do a budget? And I said, yeah, that's what it would be, and you'd make a lot more money and you'd be promoted. And he goes, oh, that would be leukemia. To my spirit.

[John Maxwell]

That's good.

[Patrick Lencioni]

But that honesty, that humility, I don't love that.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know what? He retired from us as a counselor, never moved, and it was fabulous. But he's like, nope, don't want that. Don't want to do that.

[John Maxwell]

I think too many people look at promotions as going somewhere instead of growing somewhere. And I promise you, if you grow into a situation, you can handle the next situation. But if you go into it, you can't handle it. Who says? I mean, there has to be a way of showing that you can take the next level. And I tell people all the time, the way you do the next level is that you grow into that. And so I think too many times we talk about, can they go with me? The question I always have is, can they grow with me? Because so many times we know what it's like to hire somebody also, and we outgrow them. And there comes a day where, I mean, people can help you at a certain level, but as you get to another level, honestly, some really good people can no longer help you. Not because they don't desire to help you. It's because they just don't have capacity.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Something just occurred to me, and based on what you said and you said, and that is that I'm not supposed to point. My wife says, but I always do.

[John Maxwell]

Please do. We'll know who you're talking.

[Dave Ramsey]

She's not here. We won't tell her.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, that's right.

[Patrick Lencioni]

But the thing about it is, it's like, we like leading. I really do like leading. As I'm getting older, I'm realizing this sounds silly, but not everybody is like me. So sometimes, like, when you thought to him, you said, what? You should now take over this department. And I sometimes will hire somebody and manage them the way that I would like to be managed. And they're like, I don't want that.

[John Maxwell]

No.

[Patrick Lencioni]

I'm like, you have all the freedom you want. You come up with your own job title. You figure it all out. And they're like, I don't like that. I'm like, what do you mean? That would be my favorite job. And they're like, I'm not like you. And so you need to manage People promote people based on who they are, not who we would be if we were in their situation.

[John Maxwell]

Very true.

[Ken Coleman]

Hey, I want to tell you about my new sponsor, Delete me. Here's a fact for you, and it's scary. Your personal data is everywhere on the Internet. And I don't just mean your name. I'm talking about things you don't want out there, like your home address, phone number, names of your kids, and so much more. And we can thank the data broker sites for that. They sell our data and then it ends up in the hands of online thieves who use it in scams and phishing attacks. And the worst part about this is even if you think you've cleaned up your digital footprint, your personal info can pop back up without warning. And that's why I'm really proud to recommend Deleteme. They're the industry leader at scrubbing your info from hundreds of data broker sites, and not just one time, but continuously. And then they send you detailed reports showing what they've removed and from where. Now, if you have a unique situation, they've got specialists ready to help. This isn't about paranoia. It's about being prepared. So don't wait for a phishing scam to catch you off guard. Go to JoinDeleteMe.com Frontrowseat today, and then you can use the promo code FRONTROWSeat for 20% off an annual plan that comes out to just $9 a month. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Frontrow Seat. I want to stay real quick on this motive. I'd love for each of you to share. What do you think is a mandatory motive? We're talking about passion here and for leading people. So what is one that's just mandatory? You got to have it if you're going to truly love leading.

[John Maxwell]

Two things, not one.

[Ken Coleman]

Go for it.

[John Maxwell]

Because what we teach is everything rises on leadership. Also falls on leadership. In other words, leadership is either the nicest thing that ever happens to a group of people or. Or it's the worst thing that ever happens to a group of people. But I think there are only two things. One is leadership skills. You just. You have to have leadership skills. You have to be trained to lead, but I think also good values. And I used to just do leadership skills. And one day I realized, well, when Enron happened in 2000, when all of a sudden what you put on the wall and what you walk isn't the same thing. And all of a sudden I realized, no, it's a values issue too. And the reason it's a values issue is the only thing that leaders have in common is that they see more than others see. And they see before. They see a bigger picture. Leaders always do. But they also see it quicker. And when I started off, man, 50 plus years ago. Now, you didn't have to see before, you just had to see more. But today, before is starting to replace more. Trust me, in the next 10 years, before will be prominent over more because of social media and all the things now that are AI and all. I mean, this is a day now. You know, the fastest person doesn't win the race. It's the person who started first. And this is gonna be very key because here's what happens. If I see more than you and I see before you, it's what I call the leadership advantage. I'm gonna win. I don't mean this unkindly. I'm gonna win. I saw more. I saw before we come to the table, but I'm gonna win. Now the question goes back to your motive book. That was so good, Patrick. Great book.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Thank you.

[John Maxwell]

I mean, the why? Why do you wanna lead that Dave was talking about a month ago. Now watch this. If I see more than you and I see before you, I can win. Now the question is, when I know I can win, what am I gonna do with that? Am I gonna make a decision to win for you, or am I gonna make a decision to win for me? And that's why motives are essential in leadership. Because if I motivate you, which leaders should do, I move us together for mutual advantage. But if I manipulate you, I move you for my advantage.

[Dave Ramsey]

And the irony is that the best way for you to win is to cause them to win.

[John Maxwell]

Absolutely.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's the irony.

[John Maxwell]

Totally.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And if you never get the credit.

[Dave Ramsey]

For it, that's the inverted pyramid.

[John Maxwell]

If we come to the table and you see more before. So I come to the table and you win and I go away and you come back. Come on, let's do something else. So I come back to the table and you win and I lose. And about the third time you say, come on, let's go back to the table. I said, I don't want to go to the table with you. You win all the time.

[Dave Ramsey]

And like playing golf with you.

[John Maxwell]

No, no, don't do that.

[Patrick Lencioni]

You guys should play golf with me more.

[John Maxwell]

I just talked about my game. I didn't talk about your game. I was so kind and so charitable. And now you, now you are beating.

[Dave Ramsey]

Now you brought it up.

[John Maxwell]

Oh. But since you Brought it up. No, I. I'm kid. We've had some great times, I'll tell you.

[Patrick Lencioni]

You know, there's a word that I've come to realize and, and this is all about servant leadership. And servant leadership comes from Jesus. Right? And that is, I would say, if you're not willing to suffer more for the benefit of those other people. And I like to say, suffer because there are moments in every leader, lots of them, where you're like, this stinks. But it's. For them, the e. The personal economics of leadership are bad. If you're doing it because you're like, I'm going to get more. It's like you literally have to go, I'm going to take this job knowing that I will hurt more in order to protect them and that I will then take care of myself.

[John Maxwell]

Last, I had a mentor when I was in my twenties, gave me great advice. He said, there are no two good consecutive days in a leader's life.

[Patrick Lencioni]

That's a pretty good.

[John Maxwell]

Isn't that good? It just. He wasn't so inspiring. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it sounds so cynical and so. But I just. I've appreciated. Let's put it this way, 50 years later, I'm still remembering it.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Why?

[John Maxwell]

Because it's difficult. It is not easy.

[Dave Ramsey]

I was being interviewed by a reporter asking stupid reporter questions. And she said, did you ever imagine that this Ramsey thing would get to be this size? I'm like, of course I did. I mean, how many people are in debt across the wall market? Of course I knew it was gonna be. What I didn't know is how much manure I was gonna have to shovel. What I didn't know was I was gonna have to learn how to lead instead of being a boss to get there. What I didn't know was that there's gonna be a lot of pain and suffering in order to get the other. So the end of that story is not just I have to embrace the suffering and the pain. The part of the story that's good is that it's worth it because it takes you where you wanna go, of course.

[Patrick Lencioni]

But if you analyze it on any given day or week, you going to look at it and go, and like my wife will tell you, like, this is. A lot of this is coming at cost, of course, but it's a cost worth.

[John Maxwell]

You always have to go beyond the. The immediate. If you. If you live for the immediate, you're never. Well, you're not a leader anyway. Be honest with you. But you have to always understand that the cause has to be bigger than you and, and more important than you. And it has to be in the long haul. The long haul, leadership is long haul. There's no such thing as. And I think that's part of the problem we have in so many areas of leadership, such as government, where it's turmoil. I mean, where you're in there for just brief periods of time, in and out. You can't quick fix lives by just doing hit and miss leadership.

[Ken Coleman]

Never before have we seen such distrust in the American people to government officials. But also we're seeing it in the Gallup State of the workplace report that came out earlier this year. Disconnect between what the rank and file employee team member is expecting versus what leaders are saying we're delivering. And it's. And so there's a lack of trust. So the question to you three is how does a leader establish trust with their team in such an environment of distrust?

[Patrick Lencioni]

Well, I think it gets back to what we've been saying and that is they need to know that, that you're, you're most interested in their benefit. And yes, Gallup says all these, since we've seen all this, but go to good organizations and they're not perfect. The best organizations are messy. But if you go to Ramsey, people trust leadership there.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And, and yeah, maybe this is only 15% of companies, but that's what makes the top 15% great people there. And I knew your company years and years ago. People trusted you.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Patrick Lencioni]

So even though the macro says people don't trust, go to the very best companies and people go, yeah, we trust the leaders go to the best church, go to the best schools. And it is a comp. It is the competitive advantage. But they need to know that you're willing to take on hard things for them.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, the proof has to be in the pudding.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

Meaning that you're gonna put their best interest at heart when you're making a decision, whether or not they understand it at the moment. Yep. I mean, my kids go brush your teeth. So you have some later.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, and they don't go brush your teeth. You go back, do it, your toothbrush isn't wet, I'm going to whoop you, get up there and brush your teeth. Right. They're not real sure I'm serving them right then. But I am actually doing it for their best interest because it's not going to affect me unless I had to smell their breath. I mean, really, it's not going to, it's not going to affect me. Go do your studies, get your grades so you learn the discipline of academic rigor and do the stuff. Because that's going to carry you out where you don't have to live in my basement later. So I'm trying to teach you how to live your life. I'm your best interest at heart when I'm parenting those kids.

[John Maxwell]

True.

[Dave Ramsey]

And the same thing's true of the team member. I look at them and go, I can't move you into this or I can't continue to keep you here. If you continue in this behavior because I've got your best interest at heart, you're going to get sued and me sued with you. You're stopping this now. And you know, and that's a problem. But you got to do it with their best interest in heart, not just. I'm going to protect myself against you. No, you got to learn how to do this thing, man.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And I'm not going to please you all the time.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly.

[Patrick Lencioni]

So I was just telling Ken before.

[Dave Ramsey]

We came out, doesn't always feel like sweet, you know, it's not unicorns and Skittles, baby. I mean, serving sometimes is true. It's got a little edge to it.

[Patrick Lencioni]

We got a new priest, a new pastor at my church this weekend. And he stood up. I loved it. Everybody else did too, but he loved it. I mean, he stood up and he goes, hey, you guys, I just want you to know something. I'm not here to be your buddy. I'm here for you to go to heaven. And that's why I'm here. And it was like, yes. Cause you know how somebody's like, well, I'm here to do, to give you everything you want. He goes, we're gonna make changes around here to get you to heaven. You might not like him at first, but that's my job. And I might not like everybody. I'm going to love everybody, but I'm. My job is to get. And I was just like, yes, but.

[Dave Ramsey]

He'S other centered, not self centered. Totally in that. In that quote, tough love.

[Patrick Lencioni]

He would die so that I could go to heaven, but he's not going to tell me something I want to hear just to make me feel better. I'll follow that guy.

[John Maxwell]

Trust takes time. Yes. I mean, when the person says trust me, that's a nice phrase. But prove takes time. And I think this is the big miss in a dysfunctional culture that everything is for the moment and trust has to, you know, you have to earn that. You have to earn that trust. And I think that as I look at it, I mean, I remember about 12 or 13 years ago, I spoke for the opening session at the United nations, and they asked me to speak to all the ambassadors.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Oh, you. I did that, too. No, I'm just teasing. I spoke to the opening session of the United Nations. I did that yesterday.

[John Maxwell]

You couldn't do that because you were on Mars at that time. Remember, you were on Mars. You couldn't.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Yeah, that's right.

[John Maxwell]

So while you're asking yourself, how can you talk to ambassadors of countries, you know, 200 countries, when they come from total different leadership cultures? And they want me to do two hours on leadership. And so it took me a while. I mean, I had to work on this. But I came up with three questions that followers ask of their leaders, regardless of culture. First question is, do you like me? They just really want to know if you like them. Don't you want to follow somebody that likes you versus do you like me?

[Patrick Lencioni]

Yes.

[John Maxwell]

Number two, can you help me? Is it going to get any better? I mean, why would you follow a leader if they can't help you? And thirdly, can I trust you? And the last one comes last. But it's the deepest of all leadership. And once that leadership can truly be trusted, you know, and it has to be tested to be trusted.

[Patrick Lencioni]

But the first two, without those.

[John Maxwell]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Variables we can control. I'll tell you another variable that I've learned the hard way is there are folks that have been through stuff that are wounded, and they're not gonna trust no matter what happens. So the best thing you can do there is don't hire them.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, yeah, that's very true.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And encourage them to go get healing.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, it's like, we had a dog one time that we got from the pound. They call them rich rescue dogs now, but, yeah, sure. And that dog, I never raised a hand to that dog. But you walk up to it, it flex.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because of what had happened to it before me.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

There wasn't anything I could ever do to get that healed. And so the poor dog is sad. And people's spirits, sometimes they come to you damaged, and they just. You know, they're never. They're always looking for what's wrong or.

[John Maxwell]

And it's not gonna happen.

[Dave Ramsey]

Better off just not have that in the building.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Right.

[John Maxwell]

Well, you're right, Dave. It's like people say, well, how do you lead everyone? I said, oh, I've never let everyone. Everyone doesn't follow. You know what I'm saying? So leadership has a You know, there's a limitation to anything that you do. And you're right. Whether it's trust or whatever part of leadership there is, there's just some people that you come to a conclusion that you can't lead them.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, they're not, they're not. Not supposed to be on our team. Maybe somebody else's team, on my team.

[Patrick Lencioni]

This is so hard because people that are leaders think, well, if somebody rejects me and leaves or I have to make them available to the market, as a friend of mine said, our HR.

[Dave Ramsey]

Director says we had to help them participate with inevitable.

[John Maxwell]

With the inevitable.

[Patrick Lencioni]

That's a guy named Bobby Herrera. What a great book. But, but the point is we're. We're not supposed to be. Not everybody's meant to be in our organization. Not everybody's supposed to follow us. And when we feel like we've failed, I would say this. You're failing if nobody ever leaves.

[John Maxwell]

If I need people, I can't lead people. Because if I really need you, Dave, then I can't lead you because I'm going to do everything I can to please you. And if I'm going to do everything I can to please you, I mean, I've never known leadership that made people happy all the time, and it doesn't, so. But if I need you, I really can't lead because now I'm going to become codependent on you. And now going back to the buddy, it's like your priest guy. I like that. You know, I didn't come to be your buddy. I came to take you to heaven. Well, as a leader, our responsibility is to be the best friend. It is to be the best leader we can for.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Right.

[John Maxwell]

There's a difference.

[Ken Coleman]

I talk to you a lot about making sure that you're bringing your best to work. But it's hard to bring your best when you're dragging through the day because you didn't sleep well the night before. And for a lot of people, it's not just because of the mattress, it's what's in the. The mattress. Most beds are full of junk like polyurethane foam, synthetic fibers, chemical flame retardants. And that stuff might save you a few bucks, but it's also trapping heat and then it releases toxins into the air in your home. That's not good. And that's why I love my avocado green mattress. These are made with certified organic materials. No chemical junk, no petroleum based foam, just natural latex wool and cotton that help you sleep cooler, deeper and Healthier. And you're not sacrificing comfort either, because Avocado's mattresses are supportive and comfortable. You can even take a quick quiz on their site to find the right fit for your sleep style, firm, medium, or plush. So don't settle. Upgrade your sleep and your health. Head to avocadogreenmattress.com Ken today and get $50 off with the code KEN50. That's avocadogreenmass.com Ken and use the code KEN50. Avocado dream of better. And by the way, I love those three questions. John, Fantastic. I don't think you can get the third one without the first two. Is that fair? I'm learning with you.

[John Maxwell]

No, no. If they know you like them, the third comes last. Trust is the greatest relationship that a leader can have with his people. But it's the last relationship you get. It's not the first. So the trust. In fact, let me just say one more thing.

[Dave Ramsey]

It does take time. You said that.

[John Maxwell]

That's exactly right. So what happens is, when I'm a new leader, the words I say carry a lot of weight because you don't know me. So I'm coming in saying, here's where we're going is, oh, my gosh, this is where we're going. Okay, about six months later, my words lose credibility if my actions don't back them up. So what happens is words work for six months. So when the leaders say, well, I said this, I said this, I said, well, how long have you been with him? Well, for two months. Well, that works. You keep talking, but after about six months, it doesn't work. Now, everything that you say is gauged, but what you do, because people don't do what they hear. People do what they see. So if they do what they see now, what happens if you back it up with your actions? Dave, you know this. Then your words have even more weight. Now, when I talk, they have gravitas, but if I don't back it up with my actions, they don't even carry a grain of salt.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Yeah. This priest has taken over our. Our parish. Six months is when we. I mean, like, he's saying good stuff.

[John Maxwell]

Oh, he's saying real good.

[Patrick Lencioni]

We're going to be watching.

[John Maxwell]

That's right. In about six months, he's either what he says is going to have great impact because you say, yeah, he backs that up, you know, or else what he says, you're going to say, he's preaching. You know what I'm saying? It happens all the time. I, you know, I look up so they're preaching, you know what I'm saying? Ain't going to happen. Just good for 30 minutes, listen, Dort and go have lunch, you know what I'm saying?

[Ken Coleman]

I'd love to get from you guys communication, a do and a don't. Something that you guys have observed, you've spoken, you've led a communication do for leaders and a communication don't what comes to mind.

[John Maxwell]

I don't communicate things that I feel people are incapable of achieving. I'm very careful on, you know, what's an example? I'll give you an example. I don't. You hardly ever hear me talk about talent. I mean, it's like if I need a seven foot high jumper, it isn't gonna do me any good to get seven people who can jump one foot. I gotta get a seven foot high jumper. I'm not gonna teach high jumping that people can't do high jumping. And a long time ago. I love stretching people, but there's a difference between stretching people in their giftedness so that they can grow into it and go in. And so therefore I'm very careful. There are just a few things I seldom teach. I would like to. I'm right now working on a book called the one percent factor, because I know this for a fact, that the first 90% of your growth gives you. If you're in the top 10%, you get a high return in life. But people have no clue. If you can go from the 90% up to the 99, if you can go 9% more, they have no clue the compounding effect of the last 9%. In fact, 8 to 10 times more return on the last 9% than on the first 90%. Now, my frustration, because I'm working on the book right now and I have one frustration about it. I've just got to be honest with the reader. You can't get in that 1% if you're not talented. You just can't get there. I mean, and why would I write about something that you either have it or you don't got it? Why frustrate people? Why talk about high jumping? Hey, why don't I teach people that look like me to ballet dance? Because we can't ballet. I mean, why? I'm not going to encourage me to sing. I can't sing. I mean, there are certain things that, that you just don't. One of the things leaders understand is they understand their limits and the people's limits and what they can handle and what they can't handle. I still remember I had a really a terrific team player, a great team player who did super. And he wanted to be the president. And I sat down half a dozen times and I said, honestly, I can't do that for you. But I mean, he cried. I love you and I love this organization. I want to be president. And I said, the problem is if I make you president, I'm gonna have to fire you. And I don't want to fire you, but I will fire you. But I don't want to fire you. Don't make me fire you. And what's I talking about? He doesn't have that kind of capacity. And I think that. So when communicating, the question is, what don't you communicate? I have very little desire to communicate things that I think people have no capacity to do. And especially goes in the area of giftedness, calling talents those things. I don't touch them very much because I think pretty much you either got it or you don't got it. And if you got it, you get it. If you don't got it, you won't get it. So if you don't got it, why should I try to get you to get it and just frustrate you and frustrate me?

[Patrick Lencioni]

Don't affirm somebody in something that's not good for them.

[Dave Ramsey]

Sure.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And it's so tempting to do that. A friend of mine said, talked about how love is truth and grace. You're not loving somebody if you don't give them truth and grace. And the truth is what you did for that person. It's cruel if you take out either one. And so often as managers, because if you want that short term benefit, you'll tell somebody something they want to hear just to get through the meeting and to make them feel good. And it's cruelty. And a great leader is going to be like, what you did there, that was amazing. That was uncomfortable. That guy cried and you told him you were going to cry.

[John Maxwell]

He's a good friend. He's a very good friend.

[Patrick Lencioni]

So don't affirm. It's so tempting in that moment to tell somebody something they want to hear and then to walk away and go, well, that got me through that meeting. But now this person's going to suffer.

[John Maxwell]

If you want to be an expert, tell them what they want to hear because you can get on a plane and you leave.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Exactly.

[John Maxwell]

If you want to be a leader, tell them truth.

[Dave Ramsey]

Most leaders, oddly enough, don't suffer from too much truth. No, most of them suffer from I'm in front of someone, I care about the person. And I. If I'm going to go on one side of that spectrum or the other, you go to the grace side and you go to the neighbor. Grace without truth is enabling. And so you're just. You're putting up with stuff. And when I first started, and I'm listening to those John Maxwell cassette tapes, you know, and I'm in there and I'm trying to be nice. I'm trying to be nice. And I'm from the south, and so you have to be nice. So bless your heart. Which can mean I'm gonna slit your throat, but bless your heart, right? Bless your heart. Bless your heart. Sweet. Sweet tea. Sweet tea. Passive aggressive is a science in this culture, right? And so I'm trying to be nice. I'm trying to be nice. And I finally figured out, I was so frustrated with their lack of performance or lack of talent, their lack of fit, whatever that was going on, that I was not being kind.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

By not telling the truth.

[John Maxwell]

That's very true.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so we, for my sake, we developed a saying that we still use at Ramsey. To be unclear is to be unkind.

[John Maxwell]

That's very good. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So I've got to be clear in the context of being kind so that I can be kind. Cause this sweet tea kindness, this passive aggression, that's not real kindness.

[John Maxwell]

No, you're not helping them.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's just. That's cowardice. And so I had to stand up and go, okay. I gotta be strong enough to look at the person and say, okay, here's what's really going on. We're gonna have a difficult conversation. It's gonna be very unpleasant for the next 35 seconds. Get ready. Here we go. Saddle up, baby. Buckle up, buttercup. Here we go. Right? And get that done. So mine is the thing that. The one I've had learned, and it's personal. It may not apply to everybody else, but the. The don't communicate is when I'm emotional, when I'm frustrated.

[John Maxwell]

Wait.

[Dave Ramsey]

Or.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Scared or caught off guard, spooked, Whatever. Whatever emotion. When I can feel my. My hillbilly coming up, you know, for whatever reason, I gotta stop and go, boom. I'm gonna take 24 hours. You sit right there. I'll be back in an hour. I'll be back in a day. And I made myself a promise when we started all these years ago. We've got about 2,000 people now that used to work at Ramsey. There's about 1100 there now. And of those, a certain Number we helped, you know, discover their new passion somewhere else. A certain number quit because they didn't want to work for us. Certain number got married and moved to Oklahoma. You know what? Right. But of those 2,100% of them were never fired by any leader inside of Ramsey, including me, while the leader was angry. Not firing anybody in anger, not even gonna discipline someone in anger.

[John Maxwell]

That's good.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I have violated that two times. I didn't fire anybody but two times in my whole career. And cost me dearly. Cost that trust. It eroded that trust. I never got it back with those two people.

[Patrick Lencioni]

It's interesting because vulnerability is at the heart of humility and great leadership. But vulnerability doesn't mean you do it. And we've all made this mistake. You don't do it while you're in that place. Vulnerability is going to somebody and saying, I have been angry or I've been afraid or I've been. But you don't do it in the emotion. You admit that you have that flaw. And some people think that vulnerability is going there and being raw and no self control.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's just lack of self control.

[Patrick Lencioni]

That's a lack of self control.

[John Maxwell]

That's a good distinction.

[Patrick Lencioni]

He made me think about that. Is a lot of people say, well, I'm gonna be vulnerable. I'm gonna go be angry at them or be sad. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Admit to them that you have those feelings, but bring it to them when you're not in the midst of all that.

[John Maxwell]

Abraham Lincoln did that as president. He wrote letters he never sent. And what he found, he said, I write the letters during my emotion because I want to put on paper how I really feel. But he said the next day I read it again, and I realized it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Was for me, when I'm in the better spirit, when I'm channeling my inner Pat Lincioni, my inner John Maxwell, I would. The communication would be, I ask a lot of questions. Do ask questions.

[Ken Coleman]

That's good.

[Dave Ramsey]

Do ask questions. And not manipulative, passive aggressive questions. Not a sales technique. I'm not trying to. Yeah, no, no, you know, you know, do you want the blue one or the green one? That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about, you know, what's really going on here. What's really happening here. And pull. You're pulling then instead of pushing.

[John Maxwell]

That's a good dude.

[Dave Ramsey]

Leaders pull. Bosses push.

[John Maxwell]

Good dude.

[Ken Coleman]

Love that.

[John Maxwell]

Because you're not. You're not leading or speaking out of Assumptions. Now you're fighting common ground with them. So that's a very good deal.

[Dave Ramsey]

If I already know the answer to the question. I asked the question. That's not a question. That's manipulation.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, that's correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, no, that's genuine curiosity.

[John Maxwell]

Finding out really where they are, because you can't really lead them until you find them. You got to find them. And then.

[Ken Coleman]

And I got to say, you know, we talked about trust. That is a huge, huge do for developing trust. Because when you're asking a question, you're not making a statement at them that they're forced to absorb. You're handing them the ball, if you will, and now you're showing them, I actually want to hear what you think. And they feel seen and heard, which develops trust.

[Patrick Lencioni]

You know, building on that, I would say a do, because I feel like I have to give you a do. A guy named Terry Pierce, who's passed away, wrote a great book, and one of the things he said in there is, anticipate people's objections.

[Ken Coleman]

Oh, that's good.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And. But that doesn't mean. But you have to ask. You can't say, I know what you're thinking, but you can go, hey, if I were you, I might be worried about this or this or this. Is there anything else I'm missing? So it's asking questions to anticipate and get those things out there. That's a vulnerable thing. So I think that's something I've learned over the years. It's like, before I start telling you something, I want to say, hey, are you feeling this way? Because if I were you, I might be worried about this. Is there anything else I don't understand? I heard a great story the other day about that. You talked about asking questions. Somebody said, like an HR person came to this guy and said, did you tell her she's stupid? No, no, no. I asked her if she was stupid.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm just saying.

[Patrick Lencioni]

But try to empathize with somebody and go, are you. If I were you, I might be worried about these things. And somebody go, oh, so you've thought about how I'm feeling. Oh, that makes me feel so much better that you're aware of that.

[John Maxwell]

Okay, yeah, sure, sure.

[Ken Coleman]

John, you gotta. I know you have at least one do. What's a communication do? You say leaders gotta do it.

[John Maxwell]

I wrote a book about a year and a half ago on the 16 laws of communication. And the best part of the book, I think, is this. Whatever you're communicating, you have your best message and your Big message. Now, your best message is the message you're giving them at that moment. And I call it the best message. Because it's what they need or what you feel they need. And you're giving your best to deliver it. Okay, so it changes. So the best message today won't be the best. Cause you're leading. But then you have also the big message. And the big message has nothing to do with your subject. It has everything to do with. With who you are as a person. No one ever talks about this message, but this is what gives credibility and gravitas to what you say. And there are four actions when you talked about, to be unclear is to be unkind. Or I think to be clear is to be kind. When you talked about that a moment ago, Dave, this is all about clarity. As a communicator, I think you need clarity out of your DNA. And so I ask myself four questions. What do I want the people to see? What do I want them to know? What do I want them to feel? And what do I want them to do? And when I walk in to teach, I already have that. The subject may change. But what I want them to see, I want them to see their possibilities. I'm a possibility communicator. I want to lift their head. I want them to see more for themselves than they've ever seen for themselves. I want them to see the possibilities. What I want them to know is that I value them. Because valuing people is the greatest compliment a communicator can ever give the people you are worthwhile. I want them to see the possibilities. I want them to know that I value them. What I want them to feel is empowered. I want them to. When I'm done, I don't care if they think I'm amazing. I want them to think that they could be amazing. I want to empower. That's why I'm very careful of not empowering people and what they can't do because they'll like me today, they'll hate me tomorrow. So what do I want? I want to empower them. I want them to feel like, yeah, I can do that. And then what I want them to do is I want them to apply and multiply. I want them to apply what I said. And then I want them to get other people to do it too. I want them to. But I work at a leader's world, so I'm always working with leaders who I not only want you to learn something, I want you to pass on to someone else those four things ask Yourself, those four questions, and then you fill in the answer because there's not a right answer to it. It's just. But if you'll be honest and fill in the right word for each one of those four questions, you'll very quickly discover what your DNA is as a communicator.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's gold.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, but does that make sense?

[Patrick Lencioni]

Yeah. But I want to say this. There are wrong answers. There are wrong answers because as you were going through that, I liked how you filled it in. I think there's something a little bit more universal that I think some of the answers you had were actually good universal answers. Because it's like, what do I want them to feel? The wrong answer is good. Generically good. Because that will lead us to tell them what they want to hear. So I like that you said, I want them to feel empowered to do what they can actually do. Because sometimes if you have the wrong answers to those things, here's what I want them to know. If it's not based in truth and.

[John Maxwell]

Virtue, but that's what your DNA is.

[Patrick Lencioni]

You can't be a leader.

[John Maxwell]

You answer that question and you find out who you are as a communicator.

[Ken Coleman]

Well, we know Pat. Well, that's exactly who Pat is. Like, if you're consulting in a private room with leaders and you have. Or you're on a stage in front of 10,000 people, that is his DNA. I thought that that's who you are. You are truth and virtue. Like a sword.

[John Maxwell]

That's exactly true.

[Ken Coleman]

People who know you.

[John Maxwell]

That was.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Of course, all I'm thinking about is the times where I have not done that.

[Ken Coleman]

Right. But that's.

[John Maxwell]

But if you answer that question one word, you get your DNA. So we all. And what's beautiful is when people hear a communicator speak, they hear the message, but they feel the DNA of that communicator.

[Ken Coleman]

That's right.

[John Maxwell]

And they walk out of that room thinking about what they heard, but sensing what they just experienced. And that's huge. And the moment you understand that as a communicator and. And get clarity on what your DNA is, then when you go and you speak with such. You help people so much because they don't understand it, but they'll experience it when it's over.

[Ken Coleman]

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. We look for help or support in some really weird places sometimes. I can think of many a time where maybe I've talked to a stranger who was way unhealthier than me. And the advice I got. Not helpful. At all. You know, it might be fun to talk to a person like that about everyday stuff. But when you need help with relationships, anxiety, depression, or other clinical issues, your pickleball partner probably doesn't have the right answers. You need real guidance from a licensed therapist with a strict code of conduct. And that's why I recommend reaching out to my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp's the largest online therapy provider in the world, which means no matter what you're facing, chances are they've got someone who specializes in exactly that. And it's totally online, which makes it easy to fit therapy into your busy schedule. Just answer a few easy questions, nothing too intense, and they're going to connect you with a licensed therapist who fits your needs. Plus, if it's not the right fit, you get to switch at any time for no extra cost. But they've been matching people and therapists for over 10 years and their 4.9 rating shows that they usually get it right the first time. So find the right one with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com Ken to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.com Ken all right, we have a question right here in front. The three of you are best selling authors and I'm curious individually.

[John Maxwell]

What your.

[Ken Coleman]

Recipe for success on a bestselling book is.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Well, something I was just thinking this applies to all of us, I'm pretty sure. And I don't know who first came who said this I tried to attribute to somebody I've got, but there's a saying that says what's assumed is most important. What's assumed is most what you, what everybody else assumes everybody gets is actually what they need to hear. And this is, this, this rocked my world because I think that I just remind people of things that are simple that they've overlooked because we're always looking for that next thing. And, and it's like if you just communicate without pride, like, I don't care if you think this is simple or not. I think this is what we need to hear. I can't tell you how many people times people go, your book, I think I knew all that stuff, but I just forgotten it.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And yet so many times people think, I want to be a best selling author, so I'm going to be the most erudite, really sophisticated. I'm going to go for the highest hanging fruit there is. And most people are like, just give me the stuff I can use. And I think all of our stuff, you know, an academic could go, well, that's so simple. It's like. I go, yeah, it is, huh?

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, that's a beautiful comment.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And so I think that. Tell people what they can benefit from rather than trying to prove that you're the smartest guy in the room or gal in the room.

[Dave Ramsey]

I can affirm that's true with certainly both of your all's books and how we've used them. Like your book Ideal Team Player. Ideal Team player is hungry, humble and smart. We had these people at Ramsey and we're like, okay, that person, they never fit in. And they finally ejected or were ejected or whatever. We always said they don't get it. And we couldn't put it into words. It's like they just somehow they didn't have Ramsey. They didn't get Ramsey soul. They just didn't get it. And we. Really horrible at trying to put words to what had happened. And then along comes Ideal team Player, and it's like, hungry, humble, smart.

[John Maxwell]

So simple.

[Dave Ramsey]

They weren't hungry. That's why. That's what we meant. Or they weren't smart with people. That's what they meant. And we're like, okay, now this is the framework now when we're interviewing, we're interviewing for this so we don't have to have an ejection later. Right. Or a rejection later.

[Patrick Lencioni]

There's even. You have a conference room called Humble, Hungry and Smart.

[Dave Ramsey]

We do. I mean, it's that big a deal. Because it was like, bing. It was the obvious thing. We couldn't put words to it. You put words to it and went.

[John Maxwell]

Okay, that's so true.

[Dave Ramsey]

And that book. Yeah, it sounds like a. It sounds like crazy.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And you know what's crazy? I wasn't going to write it. I thought it was too simple. And a friend said, pat, this is a. This is great. I said, really?

[John Maxwell]

That was a great illustration. Because I feel that same way. When I. When I heard the three, I thought that just put into simple words exactly what we were looking for. I mean, I think you're really good at that. I. I think that's one of the strengths of your.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Thank you.

[Ken Coleman]

I want to brag on, John, I. I've had the privilege to work for this guy here, and this guy, which is nuts. Shows they as great as they are, poor judgment.

[John Maxwell]

You made your neck okay?

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, sure.

[Ken Coleman]

Little awkward. Sure. My resume. Pat, I'd like to get the triumvirate. One of the things I saw John do. Used to talk about it. And I know you're going to Share. But I did want to brag on this because I think for anybody who feels like they got content in them, they need to take this Maxwellian theory. And you would get an idea and you would go, all right, I gotta talk it first. I gotta go deliver this in front of the leaders first. And I gotta take this one thought because this guy's a thought machine. He's exactly the way he is now privately. He's just got an idea all the time.

[John Maxwell]

And he'd go, oh, oh.

[Ken Coleman]

You know, and he'd tell all of us young pups about it. We're kind of like, yeah, it's pretty good, John. And we thought it was the next book. He goes, no, no, no, not yet. And you really were disciplined to go out and try it first. And I admire that.

[John Maxwell]

Thank you. I had a mentor when I started writing because writing was very difficult for me. Communicating orally was just kind of a natural fit. Writing was not at all. And so I'll never forget, it was my third book. So I had a mentor that had sold a lot of books. In fact, it was Jim Dobson, of course, so old people would remember him, young people wouldn't have a clue, but.

[Dave Ramsey]

Focused on the family back in the day.

[John Maxwell]

And so Jim said. And so he told me he'd help me. So I took the third. My third book I wrote out to Colorado Springs and had dinner with him and Shirley, and I was so proud. It was my first book, all the press. And I handed it to him and I'll never forget, he looked at it and smiled. And then he just probably took about two or three minutes. And I said, we're kind of went table of condense, looked at it, put it down. So let me ask you a question. He said, is this your best book? Well, I said, yeah, it's the best I can do. I mean, it's only my third book, but it's the best I can do. And I'll never forget. He looked at me and he said, good. He said, because you're only as good as your last book. Don't ever not give the people your very best. Now, that was huge for me because I've written a few books. I still ask myself every time, is this my best book?

[Dave Ramsey]

All but one of mine, the first one have been first worked out on the air and on the stage.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I do that to where I knew, yeah. That we were touching, the felt need. I knew we were catching the visceral response. The humor was working, the Oz, the body language, the lean in the stuff, you can see the reaction. And then I've just somehow got to put that to paper. And I'm a speaker first, writer second. I'm not a very good writer. You can ask my English teacher in college. So now there's a reason we have editors at Ramsey, me. And so. And I've had to fight and push back on editors and publishers to keep enough of my slang and my personality in there because that's what was connecting on the stage as well as the actual core message. So the baby steps were, you know, that's the core of our best selling book to date, total money makeover. And it's sold, I guess more than all my others put together. Probably it's a perennial, it's always still good. But the baby steps were taught in Financial Peace University. And I'm in the trenches in small groups, walking people, seeing them turn the page, so to speak.

[John Maxwell]

Absolutely.

[Dave Ramsey]

And follow this clear path. So the second thing was that part of our social proofing then, and we've learned to do this with most things at Ramsey is what you were talking about earlier on. Communication is the do the last step. What do we want them to do? And we've got to give them a clear path because we're in the self improvement space. So whether it's Dr. John DeLoney on anxiety, Ken Coleman and careers and self improvement, George Camel or me or Rachel Cruz, Jade Washer, whoever, any of us in the money space, they need a clear path to get where they're going because there's so much gobbledygook in the spaces that we're in. And so a clear path is essential. And if you put a clear path in there and then you make them and you stir in a big dose of hope that they can really do it, then they'll go do the clear path. And then the book will sell because they'll tell everybody about it. Cause it changes their life. The other thing is in my spiritual walk, I'm not always sure whether it's the Holy Spirit or last night's pizza. Tell me the speaking to you, which speaking to me. And if I social proof it, if it's God, if it's God's spirit, the truth bell will ring. You'll hear the tuning for it.

[John Maxwell]

That's good.

[Dave Ramsey]

And you'll see it in the eyes of the people. If it's just me full of crap, which is last night's pizza and I'm blaming God for it, I'm going, God, no, Bull, it wasn't him. And it doesn't prove out in the market, then God's truth will. If it's not got God's truth in it, it won't prove out in the marketplace. And what we're doing, because what we're doing is lining stuff up with scriptural principles in every case. And you know, but you can make up some translated version of whatever you want to make the scripture fit your screwed up idea. And that's called a cult. And, you know, so that's right. Instead I'm looking for, is this really God in that? And I can't get that just in waking up, having a great idea in the morning, going for a walk. And I'm sure it's God. My experience is I'm not that tuned in. Now. There are people that are better spiritually than I am, and they're all tuned in. And they're the people that scare me to death. That's right.

[Ken Coleman]

That's great.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Gosh, Listening to you reminded me of something. Because the first book, I didn't know I was ever gonna be a business author. And I came up with a theory and I was working with a client and they said, you better write a book about this. And I said, I don't know if I'm gonna write a book. And I was a writer. I was a screenwriter. I grew up loving writing, but I didn't want to write a book just to write a book. And I had a guy call me once and said, I want to be a best selling author. So I'm going to have an off site with some people and they're going to come up with a topic.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, God.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And I thought, oh, no, that's like, I want to be a rock star, so I don't know how to play an instrument. I haven't written these songs, but. And it's like, no, no. So it's like, I think the key is, do you have something to say that you feel so, so passionate that you've already been thinking about and talking about and working on by the time you write it? You're just giving people something real.

[Dave Ramsey]

The writing becomes easy then because I'm just putting out what's coming out. But what I've already proven, it's already connected and I can't. It's. And I'm not having to think it up while I'm writing it.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Can you imagine if somebody said, just write a book about what? Anything.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I don't.

[Patrick Lencioni]

You don't have to be pat. Just come up with something horrible.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, I tell these influencers we have these kids come in, they're doing all this stuff, digital influencers. And we bring them and coach them on media. I'm like, you know, don't write something until you can't not say it.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Oh, I love that.

[John Maxwell]

That's right.

[Ken Coleman]

It has.

[John Maxwell]

It's just come. It's coming out. Whether you like it or not, it's gonna come out. Yeah. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

If I don't have the opportunity to piss off a bank and cut up a credit card, I can't. I gotta. I gotta. I gotta do it.

[Ken Coleman]

All right, let's get one more audience question.

[Dave Ramsey]

We were going to go right here.

[Ken Coleman]

How do you stay tethered to groundedness? Like, how do you keep what's important, the most important, front and center?

[Patrick Lencioni]

So, you know, something that's happened recently in the. In the news in the last few days, that is powerful. And I think it gets treated with too much lightness and, like, it's just clickbait. But the CEO of a company got caught on camera at a concert.

[John Maxwell]

Oh, yeah.

[Patrick Lencioni]

With a woman that wasn't his wife. And. And what I thought about that is the tragedy of that. I mean, everybody thinks it's kind of funny because they commented on it and it's. It's all over the Internet. But I just thought about how your faith, your. Your marriage, your family, no leader can make their leadership more important than that. And it is so tempting. The world is going to try to draw you into worldliness. And I just know that if you're not grounded, and, I mean, I used to come home from speeches, and I'd walk in the door, and the first thing people would say is, casey needs help with his algebra, and the dog threw up on the carpet. And I thought, okay, these people don't care if I just gave a speech to people, and they don't care how many books I've sold. And that is such a good thing. And so it's really interesting how losing sight of what's really important. I feel so bad for that man and his family, that CEO, because no one ever is glad that they lost sight of what's most important. And so to me, this is just one of those things that by the grace of God, he's protected me, and I'm glad. But, man, I just want to tell leaders, never think that your reputation or your accomplishments. And when you know God and, you know, you know, humility is. There is a God, and I'm not him. So how can I think I'm special without that? I was thinking about this. There's a saying. St. Augustine said, if you have God and you have nothing else, you have everything.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And if you have everything in the world and not God, you have nothing that will keep you grounded. So for me, I don't know, that wasn't very eloquent. There was all lots of points in there, but I just. That's kind of how I feel about the groundedness thing.

[John Maxwell]

I was in the early 80s. I was about 37, 35. I saw successful people best their life. And I was starting to get a little. Not a lot, but books were starting to sell, things were going good. And one day I thought, well, what's going to keep me from doing something stupid? And I decided that I needed to develop a personal definition of success. Because here's what I found. If you don't personally know what success is to you, the world will tell you what it is. Trust me. You'll be regurgitating what they've given you. So it took me about six months to kind of say, okay, get a personal definition of success. And I worked on it, and I have one, and I've had it for 50 years, and it's good for me. I'm not saying it should be yours at all. It's my personal definition. I really not asking you to agree with me, but it works for me. My personal definition of success is very simple. Those who know me the best love and respect me the most. That's success. Those who know me the best, I mean, they know my strengths, they know my weaknesses, they know what I do well, they know what I don't well. They've watched me do all my screwy stuff. Those who know me the best love and respect the most. Let me flip that. There's something wrong with me if those who don't know me well like me better than those who do know me well. But it all began out of that personal definition. When I found that for myself, what I discovered was, okay, I got it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Now.

[John Maxwell]

The standing ovations, it's nice, really matter. Those people don't know me. They just heard to talk. When my family gives me a standing ovation regardless of who I am, that's a bigger deal.

[Dave Ramsey]

I have the benefit of having become wealthy in my 20s and losing everything I own. And in the process of that, meeting God on the way up, getting to know him on the way down. And so I got this wonderful reset about what's real and what's important that most people don't have. It's an unfair advantage because I was the guy and the other day, in that first chapter that cared tremendously what the audience thought. There wasn't an audience, but what other people thought.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I needed somehow the affirmation of. So the cars or the Rolexes or the. Whatever I was trying to do, trying to play that game. And then not only did I go broke, but I was also broken in the process. And so.

[John Maxwell]

And that's the key, isn't it?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, it is.

[John Maxwell]

Going broke is a terrible thing to happen to you, but being broken is a wonderful thing to happen to you.

[Dave Ramsey]

There you go. Met God on the way up, got to know him on the way down. That's it. And so it's. That did away with, to some extent, sometimes a negative, too far, but most of the time it's a positive. It did away with what the Bible calls fear of man. The need to please. The need to please. And so I just don't care what you think. It's awful. You know, I mean, it's awful.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Dave. It's like I wanted yours.

[Dave Ramsey]

Some of our Ramsey personalities will read some of the comments after the YouTube or something. And it's like if you read comments after stuff, you know why some species eat their young.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, it's some of the dumbest humans 100. Some of these people's parents are cousins. They don't. They live in their mother's basement. I don't. I don't. You don't need to read these comments. That's not customer feedback. This is trolling.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so my customer feedback's one thing.

[John Maxwell]

You are soulmate. I 100%.

[Dave Ramsey]

But it's just if they little, little.

[John Maxwell]

Realized how little we care. Yeah. If they really realized the amount of.

[Dave Ramsey]

Calories I have burned, writing a comment on someone else's work is precisely zero. So it's just I don't have time. I got work to do, so.

[John Maxwell]

But I'm building a wall. I cannot come down.

[Dave Ramsey]

I cannot come down. But the I and I, you know, I should care more about, to a degree, what people think. I mean, my wife's like, are you gonna wear that? I'm actually gonna wear this. No, I was just trying these clothes out, practicing them. I'm gonna put them back on now. You're gonna tell me what to wear. But I got, you know, I just. I gave up this need to please in an unhealthy way. And, and, and I'm self admitting I'm being honest right now. Probably sometimes even too far. I really, you know, somebody's angry at whatever life goes on, it's just, you.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Know what I makes you credible in that, though, is that you said, I mean, that you once had it. Because, see, it's human nature. It's a fallen nature that makes us think we're supposed to please, man.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, but that's where the crashes come from, right? Because I'm trying to please someone else other than God. And so that, you know, when you just want to make sure the dog and the kids and the wife are happy, everybody's good, and that's all you care about, then all of a sudden, that's. I guess they call that grounded. I don't know. I mean, you know, when I go to dinner with you, Sharon, I go down with you and Margaret and, you know, you guys are over at the house having dinner. You know, we're hanging out.

[John Maxwell]

Absolutely.

[Dave Ramsey]

And it's not. There's not a in there like somebody's, you know, nobody had to lay out some kind of red carpet thing or something. No. Oh, Pat's coming over. Oh, my God. You know, no. And we don't have people in our house that have to do that. I don't want them over there. They bother me.

[John Maxwell]

No, it's so true. Good stuff.

[Ken Coleman]

I love that. You know this guy, Craig Rochelle.

[John Maxwell]

Oh, yes.

[Ken Coleman]

So here we go.

[Dave Ramsey]

World class leader.

[Ken Coleman]

Hey, Dave, John and Pat. I look up to you guys. You're all three heroes of mine and very close friends. And so, because of our close relationship and because my admiration for you, I wanted to ask you the very, very important question.

[Patrick Lencioni]

There's a lot riding on this.

[Ken Coleman]

So, gentlemen, can you tell me if Dave Ramsey, John Maxwell and Pat Lencioni all started a business together, who would.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Be the CEO and who would be.

[Ken Coleman]

The first to get fired?

[John Maxwell]

That's so funny. That's so good.

[Ken Coleman]

I did not put him up to that. I said, send me some.

[John Maxwell]

So there he is.

[Dave Ramsey]

He should have been here in this panel.

[John Maxwell]

He should have. So what?

[Ken Coleman]

You got to answer it because he's got to see the answer. So who's the CEO and who gets.

[Dave Ramsey]

Fired first to be fired? I don't play well with others.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Well, the funny thing is, though, I was going to say he'd be the CEO because he's bossy.

[John Maxwell]

Well, yeah, he would be the self declared CEO. He'd walk in and tell us, you know, I'd be looking, we'd look at and said, who said he was, you.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Know what I'm saying?

[John Maxwell]

But he would tell us right up front. He'd say, I'm this, I'm the CEO.

[Ken Coleman]

I think that's true.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Here's where we're going.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm gonna cry because you're gonna be the president that got hired that you fired.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Ken Coleman]

Okay. You're in agreement that Dave is the CEO?

[Patrick Lencioni]

Yeah, I think so.

[Ken Coleman]

I think so. Yeah.

[John Maxwell]

You would declare it.

[Patrick Lencioni]

One of the things about John is, like, John always was. He was always like, I'm going to put some mark in charge or I'm going to let you do that. I want to do the things I love to do.

[John Maxwell]

No, no. I. I would love to be the.

[Ken Coleman]

I didn't ask Craig his opinion, but. All right. So who's the first one to get fired of this group?

[Dave Ramsey]

The CEO?

[John Maxwell]

I think I would be. I. I would be. Because. Yeah. I.

[Ken Coleman]

You think it's you?

[Patrick Lencioni]

Well, for the same reason, you know, like.

[John Maxwell]

Oh, no, I think you're.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, what would you do to get fired? That's the thing.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah. Huh.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, how do you get fired from this company? I don't know.

[John Maxwell]

Well, not if you're the CEO. I don't think I get fired as much. Because you like the rebel in me.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Yeah.

[John Maxwell]

So I don't think you. I don't think I get fired with you as a CEO because, I mean, you love the.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And you like when people push back on you.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's it.

[John Maxwell]

They like the kick. The reason you tell Craig we made him the CEO because we knew he wouldn't fire us, because he likes us. Great answer. That's why we made it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because he knows how. He knows how to corral a bunch of rebels.

[John Maxwell]

That's exactly right. Totally. That's exactly perfect. It takes one to know one. And he's one. And the law of magnetism. You attract who you are, not who you want.

[Ken Coleman]

That's right.

[John Maxwell]

So he tell. You tell Craig he's the CEO and neither one of us got fired, but.

[Dave Ramsey]

We'Re firing him because I'm an enabler.

[John Maxwell]

I can hardly. I'm going to call him on the way to the plane, get him on the phone.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Right now.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, we probably should get him on.

[Ken Coleman]

The phone and deconstruct his question. But he thought he was very happy with himself. I think on that question.

[Dave Ramsey]

He's kind of puffed up. I saw.

[Ken Coleman]

Yeah, he was excited.

[Dave Ramsey]

He works out. That's what.

[Ken Coleman]

That's right. That's what it is. I love that. So fun. Okay, let's talk about failure. There's so much. John, I think you wrote Failing Forward, the Bible on it. Such a fantastic book. But there is the fear of failure, and then there is responding to failure. You guys can take it anywhere you want, but I just. I think we would all do well to hear some thoughts on. On how to handle it, how to process it, guard from it, whichever way you want to go.

[Patrick Lencioni]

I live my life to avoid failure, which is a bad way to live. You want to live for love of something, not from fear of something. And I came to realize later in life that I was really just running from failure. And it started when I was a kid, really young. And so oftentimes we get these wounds when we're young where we feel like we're defined by what we do and the outcomes and things like that, and that can actually spur you to great success. Some of the best athletes, every time they go out to play, it's just like they're so terrified to fail. And that's not a good way to live. Yeah, it's great to, like, I love playing this game, and I would love to win, and if I fail, I'll get up and play again. But living to avoid failure is a really bad thing. And you told that story about experiencing that failure and working through it is a beautiful thing. So I've kind of come to learn that recently that not to fear it and to realize that my reputation or my worth, my identity is not in accomplishments, but in that I'm a child of God. I learned that later in life. I'm glad I learned it now. I hope people can learn it early in life.

[John Maxwell]

You know, Dave mentioned about going broke, and when he said that, I thought to myself, we should always keep success, failure, close together, and yet our culture separates it. What's the culture say? Succeed, don't fail. Do it right, don't do it wrong. And they make it poles apart. And I look at this and I say, that's not reality. My successes and failures aren't poles apart. It's not like I have four days of success where everything is good, and then I have four, two days of failure where everything is bad. Every day I have hits and misses. I mean, it's not like they separate them. So let me pull that out for a second. Here's what I think. I think they belong together. I talked earlier about seven questions I ask in my learning lunches. And one of the questions I ask is, tell me the most important lessons you ever learned. And I've asked this question for over. Well, I started asking this question in my 40s. So for 35 years, I've had a learning lunch every Month. I have them monthly. So I've had hundreds of people, I've had learning lunches with, when I ask people tell me the secret or the most important lesson you ever learned in your life every time they have failure included in it. I've never had a person tell me about the most important lesson I ever learned in life that didn't have failure in it. Isn't that interesting with hundreds of people. So all of a sudden it hit me. The most important lesson, the life changing lesson has to do you got failure in it. So keep em together. And here's why I think you have to keep em together. If you're on a roll and you're really doing some good stuff and you got the Midas touch and you're successful, you need to keep failure right beside that success because that'll give you humility. It won't allow you to get carried away with, quote, how good you are if you're over here in the ditch and you're failing. If you'll keep success right beside your failure, it'll give you resiliency.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, someday when I'm emotionally mature, fear of failure is gonna come up in my face and I'm gonna have proper perspective on it that it's not gonna kill me. I'm getting closer.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Than I used to be. Used to. I would panic every time I'm gonna. But you don't die from. The only thing you die from with failure is skydiving.

[John Maxwell]

Oops.

[Dave Ramsey]

Otherwise you're not gonna die from it.

[John Maxwell]

No. That's good.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean the rest of it just hurts. Rest of it's embarrassing, the rest of it is shaming. And what was I thinking and I shouldn't have done that and why did I allow that? And so once I get all that stuff, I'm going, okay. Yeah, but the other options sit on the bench.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, that's not a good way.

[Dave Ramsey]

I don't want to sit on the bench.

[Patrick Lencioni]

That's not my feel.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'll be in the game. If I'm gonna be in the game, I'm gonna throw some interceptions.

[John Maxwell]

That's right, you're in the game.

[Dave Ramsey]

If I'm gonna be in the game, I'm gonna drop a ball. If I'm gonna be in the game. But I'm also gonna get some touchdowns. You can't get touchdowns on the bench. So I might as well be in the game. So you know, it's what your book failing forward is, you know. So I try to change my inner narrative on that. If I can And I don't always do it. I'm sitting here, but I do it more than I used to do it. And it's like, okay, I didn't fail. I'm experimenting. I figured out a way. That doesn't work. I figured out a way. I don't want to do that again. It hurts. Pain and pain is a freaking thorough teacher.

[John Maxwell]

I mean, you want to do that very thoroughly.

[Dave Ramsey]

I mean, you just.

[John Maxwell]

You don't forget that lesson. Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

I remember when we were at the bottom, I was sitting in my recliner about 4:30 in the morning, crying and going, okay, God, get me out of this. Get me out of this. I made a stupid mess. Would you please clean up my manure? Which he does not do. He's not that. But I'm sitting there and I open up my Bible and it's Romans 5. It says, Rejoice in your suffering. And I went, no, no, thank you.

[John Maxwell]

Totally unreasonable.

[Dave Ramsey]

Complete. Why are you bringing this up now? Because suffering produces perseverance and perseverance. Character. And character. Hope.

[John Maxwell]

There it goes.

[Dave Ramsey]

And hope is a gift of the Holy Spirit. And so the failure creates the suffering, obviously. And I'm going to rejoice in that. I'm going to say that's an experiment that didn't work. And then the only other thing I thought I had on it is. And I try to teach our leaders at Ramsey this because I want people failing regularly because it creates progress.

[John Maxwell]

Of course. That's right.

[Dave Ramsey]

100% success means we ain't trying nothing. So I don't want to do that. So. But don't do. I think I got this out of that book. You want failures, but you want non fatal failures.

[John Maxwell]

Yes, yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

So don't do that clip of James Bond pushing all of his chips in on one hand.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because if you don't, because you know the evil guy's gonna get all the chips and the world's gonna come to an end. On one hand of guards. No, I don't ever put all my chips on the table. You know, if it's fatal if we try this and it's fatal, we ain't trying it.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

No, thank you.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Yeah. God doesn't ask us to go seeking martyrdom. If that's what happens to us, then we have to accept that. But he doesn't go. Go out there and make people so mad they want to kill you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[John Maxwell]

There's a difference between doing stupid and staying stupid.

[Dave Ramsey]

Or being stuck on stupid.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, because we all do stupid. We all do Stupid. I do stupid.

[Dave Ramsey]

But do it, you know, so you know, if I'm gonna try something and it doesn't work.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

It doesn't need to be the end. It just needs to be oops. Oops.

[John Maxwell]

You talk about that. Dave, there's difference between a good miss and a bad mission. And what? Some people put Mrs. Altogether, but there's a good miss and there's a bad miss. Now they're both a miss. You didn't hit it. But like, okay, a good miss is when I make adjustments. I think I know what I did. Yeah, I gotta change something. That's adjustment.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm doing autopsy on that day.

[John Maxwell]

Okay. So when you're telling, you're crying, you're saying, God, do something here forming God's. You're going to have to make some adjustments to get you. When you get out of your chair and quit crying, you got to go make. So a good miss is making adjustments where like a bad miss is making.

[Dave Ramsey]

Excuses, blaming or defensive blame.

[John Maxwell]

Because once I make an excuse, there's no hope. There's no. You can go from failure to success, but you can't go from excuses to success. You can't do it. It's not possible. So don't even try it. When I see a person making excuses, I want to walk in their life, say, my name is John, I'm your friend. Let me explain something to you. That's a dead end street. You can't excuse your way out.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Right.

[John Maxwell]

You can adjust your way out. So one's a good miss and one's a bad miss. Isn't that right?

[Dave Ramsey]

Amen.

[John Maxwell]

And if you don't know the difference, I mean like failing forward is a good miss because I failed.

[Dave Ramsey]

But I learned something and I'm farther forward than I was.

[John Maxwell]

I'm a little further down the road. I didn't get there.

[Patrick Lencioni]

You know what's interesting? You can make a small mistake and make it a bad miss because you make excuses.

[John Maxwell]

That's exactly.

[Patrick Lencioni]

You could make what looks like a catastrophic mistake and go, there's something good here. Going back to that guy, the wife at the concert and all that stuff. I pray for him that he finds some way to find redemption in this and look back and say even that horrible thing that happened, he can find good. And because you know, we all need forgiveness, we all need redemption. And that was a big one.

[John Maxwell]

Well, you never know whether it's a good or a bad miss based on the failure.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Exactly.

[John Maxwell]

It's how you know it's a good miss or a bad Miss based on the adjustment. On the adjustment. You follow what I'm saying? But what did you do when you got into deep doo doo? What did you do? And when I make the right decision I could make, no matter how bad it is, like you said, a good miss. Make a wrong decision on something that's small. All you do is deepen the miss. Now you're just getting in deeper all the time.

[Ken Coleman]

That's gold. I hope the audience caught that. That's phenomenal. When it comes to leadership and the responsibility, how you adjust. Phenomenal. I plan to ask this. You took me here. All three of you guys have won big in the secular marketplace while being very open about your faith. And that's something. You know, I'm so blessed this is such a special treat for me, just God putting me in proximity to you three guys to watch your influence and to know you personally. And I want to give it to you guys to talk about the importance of your faith and how it sustained you, given you in God's favor in your life and what it's been like.

[Patrick Lencioni]

You know, it's hard to answer that question because I know he's everything and every. Every good, every challenging, everything. He's been there. Sometimes I've turned and recognized him and sometimes I haven't. And I'm at a place in my life now where I look back and I realize he was always there and he is always here and I just need to turn to him. And so it's hard to answer that question because it's so intertwined with everything. And he's the whole reason, you know, seek ye first the kingdom of God. And so at this age that I'm at now, I realize that. And yet I know I'm not done. You know, I like what's going to happen now to grow closer to him. So it's hard to answer that because it's so intertwined with that. He is everything.

[Ken Coleman]

But do you ever look back? I know your personal story. You shared that with me. We've become very close and.

[John Maxwell]

I had.

[Ken Coleman]

No idea until recently you shared how much God has brought you through some really tough stuff.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, yeah.

[Ken Coleman]

I'd like for you to share a little bit about what the healing that has been going on with you and where you look at how he takes you from that environment and puts you at the top of the top captains of industry call you come help Pat reflect on that and his.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Well, I, I said a little earlier, I didn't realize this until five years ago. And that was. I was Afraid of failure. And I felt like I had to re. I had to prove myself to have any worth by doing good things. And. And at some point, you just can't do that anymore. And so I. I've experienced a very wonderful, dark, challenging, beautiful period. And in this past year, it's gotten really pronounced. And so I just surrounded myself with a bunch of faithful counselors, friends, spiritual directors, therapists to really explore. And I went back to my earliest days, had no idea. And what a great thing to come out of that now. And I still got more to do and realize God's been there all along and this was part of his plan. And I wouldn't change anything because I wouldn't know this if I hadn't gone through it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah.

[Patrick Lencioni]

So it's kind of what everything we've been talking about, it's fun.

[John Maxwell]

It's.

[Patrick Lencioni]

It's wonderful to think at this age that I can have even more joy and even more peace than I. Than I have before.

[John Maxwell]

Beautiful. If I could only do one thing in life, I would share my faith. It's by far my favorite thing. So I. I look for opportunities to share my faith. I make an intentional effort every day to share my faith with somebody. It may be extremely. A brief time, but I try to. I do my best. So the lesson I've learned about faith is very simple. I don't share my faith as far as getting in depth, as far as trying to help somebody find Christ or whatever, until I've added value to them first. I want to. You know, what I teach is leadership is influence. Nothing more, nothing less. So I want to influence people in a positive way that comes from Jesus. What did he say? Be salt and light. You know, salt makes things better, light makes things brighter. Okay, so add value to people. So my first responsibility in sharing my faith is not to share my faith. My first responsibility is to add value to people so that I connect with them in a legitimate way. Let me put it this way. I want people who don't know God, but they know me to want to know God because they know me. Be a positive plus in their life. The moment you become a positive plus in their life, you develop a relationship that now has integrity to where people want what you have. I've got a lot of lost friends, a lot of them. In fact, I. I love lost people. In fact, I love to hang with lost people. In fact, my greatest concern about going to heaven is I'm going to spend eternity with Christians. I'm not sure I can handle that. I mean, Honest to God. I just really. I mean, do we ever get a break? I mean, I like to have a break now. It's just kind of like I do. I just. I like lost people. And, you know, I have a beautiful atheist friend that I've been working on it with seven years. He's getting close. See, I believe everybody wants to know God. They just haven't had a good representation. See, if you don't have a good picture of God, a true picture of God, why would you want him? And we haven't given a good, clear picture of God. So I was talking to one of my atheist buddies the other day and he's now saying. He says, I want to talk to you more about the historical Jesus. I don't want to talk to you about the biblical Jesus. I just want to talk to you about the historical Jesus. I said, that'd be great. Let's just do historical. Let's not put the Bible in. I don't care. I take them right where they are. So we were talking. I said, I know you don't believe in God, but you sure do miss him, don't you? Don't miss this. We're created to know God and there's a void and a miss in your life until you meet Him. I promise you, I don't care. What other stuff you got? I was talking to a very wealthy real estate friend from mine, from Tucson the other day and he finally said, I'm ready to have a conversation about God. But he said, I just want you to know I'm doing this probably to please you more than for me. I said, that'll be good. I'll take that. That's not a problem. I don't. That doesn't bother me at all. And then he said, I just want. I want you to know that I've never felt like I needed God at any time in my life. I said, I understand that. I said, I understand that. So he said, why do you want to share your faith with me? I said, it's very simple. There's a time in your life where you're going to need him. And when you need Him, I want you to know what to do. I'm your friend.

[Patrick Lencioni]

I'm going to say something controversial. All right, Just a little bit in love.

[John Maxwell]

Go for it.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And I found this to be true. And I think as a Catholic, not an event. And I have so many wonderful evangelical friends, non Catholic Christian friends, but something that happens sometimes in the Christian world. The non Catholic Christian. I don't hear it. As much in the Catholic world, I feel a little bit like an outsider when I'm with. So I can comment on this is. I think sometimes we do too often say, like, most Christians are like this. And as a Catholic who's gotten to know all these wonderful people, I don't think it's most. I think it might be too many. But I think that we. Sometimes it's like, I think that we can. Because I love the things you said, John. But it's like everybody that listens and goes, yeah, it's like, I don't think most Christians are not like that. I think most Christians agree with you. And so I think sometimes we can throw Christians under the bus.

[John Maxwell]

Yes.

[Patrick Lencioni]

And I just want to be careful with that because as a person that's like, has gone to all these amazing churches and like, that I'd never been to before. Through my work, I find most of the Christian churches I know to be sharing their faith well and really wanting the best for other people. So I do think sometimes we can too easily go, well, most Christians are not good at this. And I just want to say in love to all of you that I don't think. When I hear that, I just don't think it rings true.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, I take that.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

[John Maxwell]

That's very valid. I accept that.

[Patrick Lencioni]

But too many people don't get it. And, and, yes, and. But. There's a but. But more and more of the. I meet all these amazing Christians and I'm like, where is this big church full of horrible, hypocritical people that you know? Because nobody's invited me to speak there yet. Yeah, but I totally. I love what you're saying, which is, let's not be that.

[John Maxwell]

That is very valid. I appreciate that.

[Dave Ramsey]

They're in the comments section.

[Patrick Lencioni]

They're in the comments. Well, and there's plenty.

[Ken Coleman]

That's true.

[Dave Ramsey]

The ones that are over saved.

[Patrick Lencioni]

But I say that in love because.

[John Maxwell]

No, I agree. That's a good addendum. Very good.

[Patrick Lencioni]

Thank you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. I met God as an adult, so in my 20s, so I don't. So I've got the before and after edition to compare. And I have never done or been anywhere or experienced anyone that created a peace that passes understanding except Christ. I've never had that sense all the way to the bottom of my feet of peace wash over me to where I just almost couldn't breathe. That was so peaceful. Except as a spiritual experience with Christ. It's the only time it's ever.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

There's nothing. And I've been to some really cool places and done some really fun, cool things. And I've been. Had the benefit of wealth to do a lot of stuff, but nothing even comes close to that. And, and that includes during dark times. That includes during times of harsh criticism, unfair criticism. It's included in times when someone's sick that you love. Then that tied back into the way I ended up approaching this first was through an intellectual process. Because if I couldn't get my, as a young person of faith trying to learn about God, if I couldn't get the intellect of the Bible to match up with reality, then I couldn't buy it.

[John Maxwell]

Yeah, sure.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so that turned me into a teacher. And so I see scripture through the lens of instruction of how God, how my father, my heavenly father, who's absolutely stone cold crazy about me, wants me to live. He's got my best interest at heart. This is what you do. This is how you're married. This is how kids work. This is how the provision of scripture, the provision of instruction from scripture. And then of course, we do that in the financial realm, but we also do it in every other thing, too. And because that's. Because it didn't just give me peace, and it didn't when I met God and it didn't just give me a ticket to heaven. It changed everything aspect of my life. Everything changed. Yeah, all of it changed. And be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. It changed everything. And so people say, well, you're so bold in your business and you, you're so open. I'm like, I know. I'm really not. I'm just that stinking grateful. I'm just that in awe of. He could take that hillbilly kid and do the stuff he's done.

[John Maxwell]

It blows. My only God. Yeah, only God.

[Ken Coleman]

Love it. Well, I've told you many, many times that I believe that a great conversation has the power to change our lives. And this conversation is going to create a lot of change in me. And one specific thing I want to challenge you with that I'm challenged by when John talked about anticipation, this idea that he's not disciplined, that he wakes up with great anticipation, I wrote down, anticipation eats discipline for breakfast. In other words, in my life where I am seeking discipline, but maybe it's having a hard time sticking, I want to move to what do I anticipate in those areas of my life? And if I can move into the why, the what of discipline will take care of itself. So I'm going to be working that thought into every area of my life in the days ahead. And I challenge you to as well. Hey, if you're enjoying the show, give us a like, give us a subscribe and please share. We want to continue to bring more of these great conversations to you. To all of my friends in the room who joined us, thank you all so much. Would you join me in thanking these three great men of God and great leaders?