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- [00:06]
A
If you struggle with making decisions, it always comes down to one thing. Fear. Fear of messing up. Fear of making the wrong call. But at the end of the day, indecision isn't an option. That's how you get run over in business. It's like a squirrel in the middle of the road. It goes this way, goes that way, then it just stops. And the next thing you know, boom, Boom. That's what happens when you don't make a call. You become roadkill. So how do you do this? How do you make wise decisions even when the pressure's on? I can't think of anyone better to teach you that than my son, Daniel Ramsey. He's one of the best decision makers I know. And today he's sitting down with Ontario leadership's head coach, John Felkins to talk about how he approaches decisions so you can have more confidence in your business. Let's get to it.
- [00:54]
B
All right.
- [00:55]
C
Daniel Ramsey, thanks for joining us.
- [00:56]
B
Yeah, thanks for having me.
- [00:57]
C
This will be a fun conversation. I actually want to talk about decision making. You are the president. You're running, day in and day out operations of a 300 million dollar company, Ramsey Solutions. Dave Ramsey founded the thing. I think everybody knows that's your father, but now we've got this. I mean, he might have started on a card table in his living room, but that's not what it is anymore. Is a big company. And I just want to talk to you about decision making. It seems like stakes are pretty high. You know, you're standing up in front of the company talking about strategy. What have you learned along the way about decision making that you kind of fall back on or you rely on when you have a high stakes decision to make?
- [01:42]
B
Where do you want to start? That's a big subject. Falcons.
- [01:45]
C
Well, let's start with one you've made recently. Yeah, like, I mean, is there, has there been something that you've had to decide that wasn't easy? And if so, if you can talk about it, how do you walk through that?
- [01:57]
B
Sure, we make a lot of decisions every day, Hundreds, thousands maybe of decisions every single day.
- [02:01]
C
Right.
- [02:02]
B
And there are some that deserve slowing down and being intentional with. I mean, we should be intentional with all our decisions, but some that we should put more weight on than others. And so I'd say there's a couple key decisions that I get to make every day. And in a season, there's typically one or two massive big decisions. They require an appropriate weight to be put towards them. Okay, so a big decision recently, I guess we made was talking about entree Leadership Summit. You know, it's our big event we do every spring, and the business model behind it. You know, we've seen some changes happen under the. Under the surface of it. And we've been talking to customers and asking for their feedback of how do we make this better, like, what do they really want? What are the things they desire more? And we've made several changes over the years, but this next year, you know, we've made some bigger changes. That was an intense process to decide, and we had multiple options and we had to make some decisions, and we had. You never have a complete set of data. You never have all the information in front of you, and you need to go make the best decision you have with the data that you have.
- [03:01]
C
Why do you think so many leaders struggle to do that? Because like you said, you're making decisions all the time. And the summit decision that you just talked about, it had a lot of zeros attached to it, like millions of dollars. Why do you think people get bogged down with that?
- [03:20]
B
Well, I think there's a lot of fear in that. There's a lot of fear of screwing something up. When you're a founder, when you're starting something from scratch or you have an idea that is brand new, there's no risk, there's nothing to fail, there's nothing to screw up. But if you have something that's been working for a long time and you make a change to it, there's a risk there that that thing could hurt or there's an opportunity that that thing can grow and get a lot better. And so you gotta weigh those decisions well, but you gotta be intentional with it. And so change is going to happen. Like the world is changing around us, whether we like it or not. And we have to make decisions to embrace that change and proactively look for what is changing. How do I get ahead of it and how do I make the best decision with the environment we're in? I've seen a lot and I've made a lot of decisions that I was having to make a decision from a point of weakness because I didn't get ahead of things and things had changed and crept up and forced to change. The marketplace is going to force a change on you whether you like it or not.
- [04:15]
C
I feel like I have witnessed leaders, either within Ramsey or leaders that are running businesses that, you know, that we're working with in our coaching program, kind of fall into two camps. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but it seems like, they're either kind of an intuitive decision maker, kind of, you know, they fly by the seat of their pants, which I don't necessarily want to degrade that style of decision making, because usually that intuition is informed by a lot of experience. But then on the other side of it, I see leaders that are, like, very calculated, and they bring in a lot of data, and they sit with it for a long time, and they draw a lot on a whiteboard. Which one of those two camps do you fall into? Well, do you feel like that's accurate? And then, if so. Oh, definitely.
- [05:03]
B
Oh, definitely. Well, I think we both know Dave is an intuitive leader. Like, he. He has a phenomenal gut that's backed by a wealth of experience.
- [05:12]
C
Right.
- [05:12]
B
But he makes decisions quick. And, you know, what seems like to us as the bystander is from the hip. But really, it is a. It is a reaction to a similar experience he's had before.
- [05:23]
C
Yeah.
- [05:24]
B
Or a set of things he's faced before. I have a huge advantage of. My default is to be the same. My gut is strong in the sense of, like, I am tempted to make a quick decision. I have to temper that with some wisdom. And I have a huge advantage in that I'm a young leader. I don't have a wealth of experience. I'm making decisions every day that I have no business making or I've never been part of making. And so I have to humble myself. And while I have an initial reaction, if I judge a situation with my gut, I'm gonna make a poor decision most of the time. Now, there's a few bets that have paid off, but I have to slow down enough to get wisdom around me, bring people around me, bring information around me to inform that decision. Now, as long as I'm intentional about gathering that information and driving towards a decision, that's good. But, you know, we often see leaders, and I've made the mistake myself, where you get paralysis of the analysis, and you kind of are fearful of making the decision, and out of fear, you just delay it in various ways, like gathering more information. But if you're intentional and you're trying to drive towards a decision, that's good. I mean, I typically use my gut to form a thought, to form a bet, to form a hypothesis, if you want to get science. Y. And then I use information to validate or invalidate that. And I ask leaders to challenge me and challenge my thinking and sharpen my idea or destroy it, and let's go with their idea. And so that's kind of how I typically think about it.
- [06:55]
C
So that's kind of your process and how you do it. Is that because you feel like you just weren't born with the ability to make the decision, or is that how people can grow? I mean, what I'm asking is, do you feel like people are natural decision makers or built natural? You know, if you're a human, you
- [07:16]
B
have to make decisions. Like, you can't be responsible for anything of substance if you're not making decisions. And so everyone has it in them. Everyone has the ability to do it. Do you have the courage to do it with intentionality? Do you have the courage to make the hard trade off? Do you have the courage to lean into the conflict, lean into the difficulty and the pain of change in that? Now, one of the best lessons Dave has taught me, he's modeled this so well, is if there's not an option on the table he likes, like if he's forced to the decision there's not an option on the table he likes, he refuses to make it. And he is angry and upset and he is like, we will not make the decision until there's a better option. So we will either go find a better option or we will wait till one reveals itself. And it is amazing to watch him do that. And I've been tempted out of laziness or out of temptation just to move on, to choose the lesser of two evils or to choose the the better of the two options. And he has often challenged me to wait and to see what is revealed. Oftentimes, if you let something play itself out a little bit, you can't neglect it. You can't do that out of fear. You can't do that out of lack of obligation. But giving it a little time to sort itself out, things typically reveal themselves. And I think God has a way of kind of doing that and showing us, especially when you invite him into the decision making process and slow down enough to do that.
- [08:39]
A
We'll get right back to our episode. But first, as your business grows, everything gets more complex. There was a time when we had too many disconnected systems and not enough visibility across the business. We wasted time chasing information instead of making decisions. That's why we got NetSuite. NetSuite brings your financials, inventory, CRM and more together in one place. More than 43,000 businesses run on NetSuite, including Ramsey Solutions. And now they're taking the next step with NetSuite Next, making it easier to put AI to work across your entire business. Netsuite Next Automates Routine work, like following up on overdue accounts. And with NetSuite Next, AI is built into everything you do. So you can ask questions just like you're talking with a member of your team. You'll have the information you need to make decisions faster. That means less busy work and more time growing your business. And right now, you can try NetSuite next for free. If your revenue is at least seven figures, go to NetSuite AI Ramsey. That's NetSuite AI Ramsey. Now let's get back to the episode.
- [10:00]
C
I love that you said, you know, one of the things that you do is you bring people around you that you respect that you know, have got experience. And I know a lot of times that is Dave. But I also know other times you bring other people in with different perspectives. When you say, you know, and I invite them to challenge me, you just do that, like, hey, I invite you to challenge me and then what's the person supposed to do? Or do you have a way that you. That you make the room comfortable with doing that and draw that out of people? Because not everybody is going to be really comfortable even if you say those words.
- [10:36]
B
So I have a huge advantage, which is like, I am typically the youngest person in the room and the least experienced person.
- [10:43]
C
Why is that you saying that? That doesn't sound like an advantage.
- [10:46]
B
The temptation of the leader is to feel like they have all the answers. The temptation of the leader is they think that they're. Their team expects them to know what to do all the time. And my age and my lack of experience, they don't expect that of me. And so I lean into that.
- [11:05]
C
So that's your advantage.
- [11:06]
B
You know, it's like the old chieftain sitting around. He's the last person to talk. He lets. He wants to get everyone else's perspective before he talks. And so a good leader is going to draw out the thoughts, opinions and perspectives of the team. Because if I say something definitively hard, which I do a lot, I'm opinionated and I say things in my head. It sounds like I'm really open handed, but my team hears it as like, you know, a challenge. And I have to be really careful to not speak first and to draw out the perspective and context that my team has. So if we're faced with a decision, my job typically is to set the table for the conversation. And I say, hey, what is the key problem we're trying to solve? What is the context necessary to frame up this decision? And I invite the room to bring into that. And what do Y' all think are the best solutions. And then I will start to challenge those and poke holes in those and then say, hey. And then, you know, ultimately land on a decision. The example I just gave is when it's my decision to make, Oftentimes I have leaders who that they are responsible for that decision, and they're coming to me, trying to get me to make the decision for them. And I have to remind them, do you own this or do I own it? And it's kind of me saying, like, hey, do you want to be responsible for your area, or do you want me to do it for you? And there's safety in me doing it for them, because the responsibility, the blame, if it doesn't work, falls on me.
- [12:39]
C
Right?
- [12:40]
B
But it's empowering for me to look at the leader and say, I want you to own this decision. I'll help you think through it. I'll challenge your thinking. I'll ask you questions. But ultimately, in those situations, I tried my best. As long as they're not putting themselves in a bad position, as long as I trust their competency to make the decision, I put it back on them and say, I'm good. If you make the decision either way, and I'll support you.
- [13:04]
C
So you saying that, like, I'm having these images of you being in this conference room, everybody sitting at the table, and. And I know sometimes you are trying to make a decision about what to do. Sometimes you're empowering the people at the table to be the decision maker because that ultimately develops them, and that's good for them, and that's a decision that you make. But I'm thinking about the people in the room and how they get in the room. You know, how you choose people to get in the room. And honestly, Daniel, I'm having a flashback to a meeting before I worked here where the leader. I remember a leader saying, look, I'm not just having people in here to be yes men. Isn't that right, Bobby? And then Bobby said, yes, that's right. Like, it happened right in front of me that he said he didn't just want yes men. And he referenced his yes man. And his yes man affirmed him in not wanting yes men. And I was like, did you just see that? Did that really just happen? And it really did. How do you. When it's your decision, when you're trying to plot the course, how do you pick the people that are in the room with you?
- [14:10]
B
I want people in the room with me who care as much as I do about the outcome of the decision. In other words, I want them to emotionally own the weight of that decision as much as I do. And if I am constantly in a situation where my leaders aren't challenging me and aren't iron sharpening iron, they aren't bringing their opinions and their thoughts, they don't care enough about the business to challenge me. Now, at the same time, if I've created an environment where I'm constantly shutting down their thoughts and shutting down their ideas and not giving them the dignity to speak into things, that's on me. But if I have a leader who doesn't have the courage to step up and to speak into things, they shouldn't be part of that decision making process. Now, I'm in a lot of different rooms with a lot of different groups of people all the time. And there's often people in there in various roles and responsibilities, levels of responsibility, and it's one of the most empowering, dignifying things. When I look at someone who's not used to being asked a question like that and I invite them into the discussion and they always rise to the occasion. And if it's my decision to make, then it, I have to use my judgment on how much I weigh their perspective in that decision.
- [15:28]
C
So once the decision is made, let's say you've done that and you've made the decision. I have watched you run a pattern that follows the decision over and over again. And that's how you communicate the decision to the entire company. Talk a little bit about you're in this room, you're in this board room, this conference room, whatever it is, and a decision is made. How do you go from that moment to the moment where 1,000 people all hear that this decision has been made?
- [16:03]
B
Yeah, our leadership team, There's a lot of folks on our leadership team that are better at this than I do. My assistant Morgan, she does a phenomenal job at reminding me of, hey, here are the various layers of team that need to hear about this and in the appropriate order. So she sets me up for success. I gotta give her credit and our leaders credit for. We kind of have a playbook of, you do it if there's a target and there's different rings as target. If the leadership team has made a decision, then you take it to the next layer of leadership team that it impacts and then so on and so forth. And you talk to each person who is impacted the most first and the least last. It's inconvenient for me because I tend to have the same Conversation four or five times, sometimes more. But what's great is it refines the way I talk about it. And I get to watch the audience and the people react, and I get to improve on how I communicate it. So by the time I speak to our entire company about it, I know how to deliver it. I know how to say it clearly, concisely. That encourages the team or gives them the information they need. And you always default to like, it's better to overshare than under share. We work in a building full of adults. We got a couple interns, but not many. They're all adults. I guess they're all 18 or over 18. But we gotta treat people like adults. And if you think that your team can't handle the news or can't handle the maturity to handle a hard conversation, well, maybe I need to work with my team. Maybe I need to build them up to that. But I should not overshare in an inappropriate sense. But I should lean towards treating them like adults and look them in the eye and telling them the real, real. It is not me doing my job. If I'm painting a beautiful picture that isn't really reality. If I'm whitewashing a situation to save face, that's my own ego that I'm protecting. I'm not actually protecting them. And truth be told, there's a lot of smart people, they read right through that. Like, people don't. They see an inauthentic whitewash story, and they're gonna know. And I've made that mistake. There's been plenty of times where I've oversimplified things or not gone deep enough into the real real. And the team knew. And next time, I'm committed to just going for it more.
- [18:18]
C
Yeah, I love that. Is there a decision that you can remember since you've been here at Ramsey that was like. That you can share? It was like this was one of the toughest decisions I've had to make. And what was that?
- [18:30]
B
The ones that are the hardest are always people, especially when it results in someone losing their job. You know, one of the interesting things is in this transition between Dave and I, I've inherited his leadership team, and I've had to form it into my own leadership team. And most all those people are part of kind of that group of leaders that my dad raised up. And there's been a handful that I've added in the recent years that are more people who I've had a direct relationship with. And so in that, there's been a natural loss of some people decided it was their season was done for a variety of reasons, and other people, we had to make that decision for them. And those processes are always with as much dignity and drawn out and intentionality as you can. And there are plenty of things I look back on and I'm like, man, I could have done that better and I learned from that and I'll do better next time. And yeah, those are the hardest ones though, are the people ones.
- [19:24]
C
Love it. Thank you, Daniel.
- [19:25]
B
Yeah, thank you.
- [19:28]
A
Running a business means getting real comfortable with being uncomfortable. For every tough decision you face, there's 10 more waiting right behind it. That's leadership. The good news is you can get better at it. That's because confident decision making isn't a personality trait, it's a skill. When you were born, they said it's a boy or it's a girl, not it's a leader. So if you want even more practice practical tips on improving your decision making, check out our free article by clicking the link in the description. And if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to like, share and subscribe for more real world leadership content. I'm your host, Dave Ramsey, and this is Entree Leadership.