Trial Lawyer: Here’s How to Handle Conflict in Your Business (With Jefferson Fisher)

Summary

Summary of "Trial Lawyer: Here’s How to Handle Conflict in Your Business (With Jefferson Fisher)" – The EntreLeadership Podcast

In the March 10, 2025 episode of The EntreLeadership Podcast, host Dave Ramsey engages in a compelling discussion with Jefferson Fisher, a successful trial lawyer and Instagram sensation. The episode delves into effective strategies for managing conflict within businesses, offering actionable insights for small business owners and leaders seeking to enhance their communication and leadership skills.

Introducing Jefferson Fisher

The episode kicks off with Dave Ramsey introducing Jefferson Fisher (02:19), highlighting his expertise as a trial lawyer and his latest book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. Fisher emphasizes the importance of arguing not to win, but to accomplish meaningful objectives within a business setting. Dave expresses his eagerness to learn from Fisher, setting the stage for an insightful conversation.

Core Strategies for Handling Conflict

1. Directness and Brevity in Communication

Jefferson Fisher advocates for direct and concise communication as a cornerstone of effective conflict resolution. He points out that "the more you say, the less you mean" (02:45), suggesting that brevity enhances clarity and reduces the potential for misunderstandings. Fisher explains, "There's confidence in using less words. They're more powerful. They're less prone to misinterpretation" (02:48).

2. Confidence vs. Insecurity in Communication

Fisher discusses the relationship between communication style and personal confidence. He observes, "The more confident person has the need to say less. The insecure person always has the need to say more" (03:24). This distinction underscores the importance of self-assuredness in maintaining effective and respectful dialogues, especially during conflicts.

3. Surgical vs. Machete Approach

Using vivid metaphors, Dave Ramsey and Fisher compare communication tools, advocating for a "scalpel" approach over a "machete" one (03:56). This analogy highlights the need for precision and care in conversations, avoiding overly aggressive tactics that can exacerbate conflicts.

Listener Questions and Practical Applications

Throughout the episode, Dave and Jefferson address real-life scenarios submitted by listeners, providing tailored advice based on Fisher’s expertise.

1. Brent from Dallas (04:47)
Brent, president of a packaging company, faces challenges with a reluctant business partner who refuses to sell his stake. Jefferson advises initiating a straightforward conversation, emphasizing honor and shared values. He suggests starting with, "I need to have a serious conversation with you" (07:22), and following up with probing questions to understand the partner’s reservations.

2. Tanya from Portland (17:08)
Tanya, managing partner of a CPA firm, seeks methods to solicit honest upward feedback from her team. Jefferson recommends "priming the conversation" by scheduling one-on-one meetings that balance personal rapport with open dialogue. He emphasizes asking questions like, "How can we better serve you?" (19:13), to encourage transparency and trust.

3. Jake from St. Louis (29:38)
Jake, involved in a third-generation family construction business, grapples with succession planning and managing familial relationships. Jefferson advises focusing on one issue at a time and setting clear goals for each conversation. Dave reinforces the critical need for detailed partnership agreements to prevent business dissolution, cautioning that "not planning is a plan" (32:38).

4. Taylor from Huntsville, Alabama (41:19)
Taylor, a partner in a digital marketing firm, contemplates dissolving a partnership amid conflicts with a business partner. Jefferson encourages following gut instincts and highlights the importance of having a clear exit strategy. The discussion underscores the necessity of structured buyout provisions to facilitate smooth transitions.

Practical Techniques and Closing Insights

1. Asking Clarifying Questions
Jefferson Fisher emphasizes the power of asking clarifying questions to defuse tension and uncover underlying issues. For example, in response to belittling behavior, he suggests asking the offender to "repeat what they said" (26:50). This technique often leads to self-correction or a realization of the inappropriateness of their remarks.

2. Building Trust Through Personal Connections
Effective conflict resolution is not just about addressing the issue at hand but also about building and maintaining trust. Jefferson advises leaders to engage in personal conversations with team members, fostering an environment where honest feedback is welcomed and valued.

3. Structured One-on-Ones
Dave shares his experience with structured one-on-one meetings, where participants report both highs and lows. Initially intended for business insights, these sessions organically evolved to include personal sharing, strengthening team cohesion and mutual understanding.

Notable Quotes with Attribution

• Jefferson Fisher (02:48): "There's confidence in using less words. They're more powerful. They're less prone to misinterpretation."
• Dave Ramsey (03:56): "Use the scalpel."
• Jefferson Fisher (10:05): "It's better than the alternative... So, Brent, lesson learned."
• Jefferson Fisher (17:08): "You need to prime the conversation."
• Jefferson Fisher (26:50): "Did you mean to say that out loud or did you just think that stayed between your ears?"

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reinforcement of the key message: Effective conflict resolution is rooted in clear, respectful communication aimed at mutual understanding and goal achievement. Jefferson Fisher’s insights, complemented by Dave Ramsey’s practical leadership experiences, provide listeners with valuable strategies to navigate and resolve conflicts in their businesses successfully.

Listeners are encouraged to apply these techniques in their own professional interactions to foster a more harmonious and productive business environment. Additionally, the upcoming Entree Leadership Summit is highlighted as an opportunity to further engage with top leadership experts like Jefferson Fisher.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, introductory remarks, and outro sections to focus solely on the core content and discussions of the podcast episode.

Transcript

[Dave Ramsey]

Hey, business owners, today is the day to pre order our new book, build a business you love. Reserve your copy from the Ramsey store and get more than $350 in bonuses for free. Go to entreeleadership.com build or click the link in the show Notes from the headquarters of Ramsey Solutions. This is the Entree leadership podcast where I take calls from leaders like you about what it takes to win at any stage of business and leadership. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host with over 30 years of experience leading in the trenches, digging the trenches, shoveling the trenches right alongside you guys. I'm one of you. We love small business people here, we love leadership people here, and we're here to help you. If you want to submit a question, go to entreeleadership.com ask or leave us a voicemail. We'll make you a caller here on this call in podcast YouTube thingy. We do 844-944. 1070 is the number. That's 844-944-1070. Once a year we do a huge leadership event, possibly the nicest and best leadership event in North America. We have about 3,000 small business and otherwise leaders there attending. And we have some of the top leadership minds and teachers in the world speaking this year. That will include my friend Jim Collins, John Maxwell, many others will be in Denver in May. And one of our speakers is an absolute Instagram sensation. At least that's where I first saw him. And we met him through Dr. John Deloney, who actually knew him from his academic career in the past. And that's Jefferson Fisher. If you've not seen him on Instagram, he's absolutely incredible. Brand new book out called the next conversation. Argue less, talk more. He's a trial lawyer by trade and has learned the art of arguing not to win, but arguing to accomplish something. I like to argue to win. So I'm gonna learn something from him today. So, Jefferson, thanks for hanging out with us, brother.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, good to have you and we look forward to having you in Denver in 5-18-21. The next convers actionable strategies and phrases that will help you make a more direct, confident and productive communicator. Okay, so what is it? Just shot through my head. It's not on these notes that being direct might include brevity.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right. It works.

[Dave Ramsey]

You just did it to me right then.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly right. Yeah, good point. It always ends up that the more you say, the less you mean. It's kind of that mindset of the longer it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. If you know a whole lot, you don't have to say a whole lot. There's confidence in using less words. They're more powerful. They're less prone to misinterpretation. And always it's the more confident person who has the need to say less. The insecure person always has the need to say more.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, we think of the adolescent boy.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

Just really loud and showing out and so forth.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Absolutely.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's like the stereotype almost of that idea.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Or you're at that meeting where somebody is. They always have to add their 2 cents. They always have to have be the devil's advocate. They always have to say something when really they're probably the least knowledgeable of the group. The person who's most informed is one that's typically the more confident and says the least.

[Dave Ramsey]

So it ends up being surgical versus using, you know, a machete.

[Jefferson Fisher]

You got it. Use the scalpel.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. So we're gonna take calls from you guys out there for Jefferson on this idea of conflict, the idea of arguing not to win and beat up the other person, but in order to accomplish a task to get us to where we wanna go, Setting boundaries, framing a conversation effectively. So a lot of times, small business folks, we struggle with because we're so caught up in the task itself that we forget to have a little bit of finesse about how we go at this. So I asked Jefferson if he could sit with us for this entire episode, which is something we don't usually do with guests on this show. It's usually just a call in show with questions about leadership and so forth. But we're gonna set up some communication questions, some argument questions, conflict questions, boundaries questions, those kinds of things. You okay to hang out and take some calls?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I'm more than happy.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right, let's do it. Brent is in Dallas, Texas. Hey, Brent. Your question for Jefferson Fisher.

[Brent]

Hello, my name is Brent and I'm the president of my company. We're based out of Dallas, Texas, and have a packaging company. And we are about 5 million in sales and we have about 35 employees.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's awesome.

[Brent]

I'm 38 years old and my partner is 68 years old. And we have been growing at a. A rapid pace over the past seven years. When I bought the company, I had five employees, and now we have 35 employees. We. We've grown to substantial heights that I really didn't think we were ever going to get to, and the business is doing well and I'm, you know, you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Said I had a partner and then you said I bought the company.

[Brent]

Sorry. Yes, I bought 50 of the business.

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm sorry, from him?

[Brent]

I, yes, from him. From, from, from my partner. I have, I have 50% of the business that, what I bought. Sorry. And his wife has 25% and he has 25% and I'm, I am the 50% owner.

[Dave Ramsey]

I see.

[Brent]

His wife, his wife is not, she's not involved in the company. She's just an owner on paper.

[Dave Ramsey]

Right. But she's, you know, she's obviously going to vote with him. Yes, of course. Yes, sir. All right. And so is there a problem?

[Brent]

Well, we're, I've been trying to buy them out for the past two years and you know, he has no intention of retiring. He keeps telling me. And we have a, we have an issue with person, a really bad issue with personnel. He has a secretary that makes very good money and she's, you know, needless to say, is probably as bad as an employee as I've ever seen in my career. And you know, I feel like he's protecting her and you know, that's what he knows. If, you know, if he were to leave that she would not have a job. But things are going like, you know, he's a good partner in terms of works. He's there. He works, he works, you know, 40, 50 hours a week. But you know, I've got about 90 of the sales in the business and he's probably got about 10, 10 of the sales.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, all right, what, what do you, what are you thinking?

[Brent]

I, I, I, I personally really want to buy them out and keep get, you know, get on and you know, grow my business some more. But I'm really stuck on, you know, really sticking in with this with him and either just stepping away and going to, you know, start another business in the same industry which, you know, I don't have any kind of non compete, I don't have any, anything on paper saying that I can't do that.

[Dave Ramsey]

But is there any kind of a partnership agreement there?

[Brent]

Yes, there is a, there's a partnership agreement like in terms of like, you know, just, you know, when we, when we signed the papers, it was just like a standard, you know, lawyer agreement, like nothing, nothing special. We never really thought we were going to.

[Dave Ramsey]

What does it say about buying someone out?

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's what I was thinking.

[Brent]

I'm sorry. It says that I can buy him out and he has to approve if Someone were to buy me out, he has to approve that, and I have to approve somebody buying him out.

[Dave Ramsey]

But there's no instance in the agreement that says that you can force him to sell, correct?

[Brent]

Yes, sir.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. That's going to be very difficult if there's not anything on the paper that's going to allow you to do that. What I can do, and I'll leave it to Dave on the business advice here, but in terms of conversation, where my skill set is, when you need to have that difficult conversation with him, what I'm going to encourage you to do and shout out to Texas, as another fellow Texan, is that you need to not begin with the fluff of trying to come at it as, with pleasantries, small talk of, you know, I love the company that we have, you've done a great job. And then you go, so listen, now, I need to talk with you about. Don't have that transition. Instead, what I want you to do is begin that conversation straight out of the gate. You need to say something along the lines of, I need to have a serious conversation with you, period. Or this is going to be tough for us to talk about. Or this is going to be a difficult conversation. You need to lead with exactly what you need to say out of the gate because clarity is kind, and that's going to set you up to have a real honest conversation. But it's going to be very difficult if there's not a very clear path to force him to sell you his shares, to buy him out when there's not a proper path for that. But I can help you with the conversation side of it.

[Brent]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

So, Jefferson, it occurs to me that you start with that, obviously.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Maybe start asking some questions after that, going, you know, making a statement. We're gonna have a difficult conversation. I'm not okay with where we are exactly. We need to talk about real seriously, me buying you out. Because I'm not okay with this. I'm not gonna keep sitting here like this. Right. And now what would that look like? What are you concerned about? Are you concerned about the secretary? Maybe I need to give her a package as a part of this. Are you concerned about not having anything to do? Are you concerned about honor? What are you concerned about? Start trying to figure out what it is he's looking for rather than, I just think I'm going to work till I drop.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Absolutely. What you need to do is. And he's exactly right. You kind of put yourself in the position of as a student and let him be the Teacher, you're asking questions where you're trying to have something to learn, not something to prove to, where you're trying to figure out what's the fear, what's the driver in that situation that is preventing him from doing what you're wanting him to do. Because there's a fear, there's a concern right in there that is preventing him from acting. So the more questions you ask, the better position you're going to be in to find out where you need to take the conversation.

[Brent]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

You might be surprised what you found. I was in a situation one time where I was sitting and coaching, trying to help. I wasn't really coaching. I was just invited into the argument. But this pastor was. It was way past time for him to hand the reins off on the church to the next pastor coming up. And he really wanted to, but was so resistant, and we couldn't figure out why. And finally, we actually got the deal done, so to speak. I mean, pastor, this is what you need to do. And he's like, yeah, this is what we're gonna do. And in the tail end of the conversation, his wife walked into the office and said. Called his first name and said, these men are trying to steal your church. And we figured out the resistance was not him, but we didn't know that. If we'd have known that, we could have dealt with. We could have brought her into the whole conversation and solved that, too. But it was more her that didn't want him to quit. And that could be here. Wife's got 25%. She doesn't want him home.

[Brent]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

She might like him going off to.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Work, especially if he's concerned about the. The assistant.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brent]

You know, it's more of, like, I feel like the company and him going into work every day is a hobby more than, like, a job. You know, he's just, you know, if it's.

[Dave Ramsey]

If it's giving him meaning, if you can get him to say that out loud, that's an important thing.

[Brent]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

You need to discover what the source of the resistance is. And questions might get that.

[Brent]

He thinks, like you said, I think you mentioned this, but he thinks if he retires, he will just get old. He said that to me numerous times.

[Dave Ramsey]

Too late. He's 68. Already happened. I know that because I'm 64, so I'm already old. It just happens. You can't stop it. It's better than the alternative. So, Brent, lesson learned. And for our audience, from a business perspective, I'll lean back in, and I often Say the only ship that won't sail is a partners. And that's why you got this. Anything with two heads is a monster. And you got a monster on your hands because you guys have a crummy partnership agreement. When you say standard lawyer stuff, I'm gonna say substandard lawyer stuff. And Jefferson's a lawyer. You probably agree with that.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I can attest to it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. There's no exit strategy in here. There's nothing in this general partnership agreement dealing with disability, drug use, default, divorce, death. I bet you don't even have a buy sell built into this. What happens when he dies? Yeah, there you go. You don't know. So this is a crummy agreement because if you're going to have a general partnership agreement, you deal with all the Ds. Divorce, death, disability, drug use, default, disinterest, and whatever other thing we can come up with. Cocaine use. That's drug use. I mean, whatever. I mean, it's the stuff that Jefferson's run into in his law practice and we've seen over the years coaching people. And many times it is not the actual partner that's misbehaving. It's a member of their family. So you get into that, too. So if you're going to get into one of these things, you've got to have a much better deal than this. And I honestly would prefer to be a 49 than a 50. But of course, 51 is the preference, because when you're a minority shareholder in a small business, you have zero power. Agreed.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Absolutely agree. So when you're in that difficult conversation, when that's coming up and you want to talk to them, I want you to lead with, this is going to be a difficult conversation. Follow up with a question, just like Dave said, what would it look like or what would need to happen for me to buy you out? What would need to happen for you to walk away? And that's where you're going to get curious. And you'll be surprised at what you find when you ask questions to try and find the root as to why he's behaving and believing a certain way.

[Dave Ramsey]

Very good stuff. Jefferson Fisher. Argue less, talk more the next conversation. And that's the book. He's one of our presenters, one of our leadership experts is going to be teaching at Entree Leadership Summit coming up. We'll be right back on the Entree Leadership Podcast.

[Tanya]

You've reached the level you're at because you're good at what you do. But you may or may not be an expert at all the financial stuff that comes with business. Maybe you don't know your cash flow from a hole in the ground. Maybe balance sheets, they make you dizzy. And maybe figuring gross margins makes you feel well, you get the idea. Belay gets it too. People have different gifts and you're busy doing all the other stuff you do so very well. That's why you need a free financial consultation with Belay. When you set up a meeting with their accounting services team, they can review your company's financial health, determine your pain points, discuss your growth plan, and determine where Belay can help you best. Then Belay's accounting service professionals can come beside you as your business grows until you're ready to bring on your own full time accounting help to set up a free financial consultation with belay. Text ENTREZ to 55123 Guys, you don't have to be good at all the numbers. You just need to know this one. Text ENTRE to 55123 hey, if you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Want to grow your business in 2025, then you got to grow as a leader. I found out the problem with my business is in my mirror. And that's why over 2,300 approaching 3,000 small business leaders have already RSVPed to entree leadership summit May 18 through 21 at the fabulous Gaylord Resort in Denver, Colorado. Hey man, this is not the Motel 6 here. The leadership conference is the place leaders like you come to learn and scale your business. And as you know, small business is the backbone of the American economy. Statistically, we are running out of seats. Platinum tickets are gone. Preferred seats are almost gone. If you're ready to do this, show up at some go to entreeleadership.comsummit right now or click the link in the Show Notes. If you're listening on YouTube or podcast. One of our speakers this year is Jefferson Fisher, my guest this hour where we're taking your questions about communication, about negotiation, about boundaries and so forth. Tanya is in Portland, Oregon. Tanya, your question for Jefferson. I am the managing partner of a CPA firm and we primarily do government consulting. Our revenue last year was 2.5 million and we have 13 employees. Cool. Good for you. Thanks. My question is what is the best way to solicit honest upward feedback from our team?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I mean, you can always tell them that you can be transparent with me. My door is always open. That does not allow that. Even though you say this is an open door policy, people are very hesitant to do that. It's like giving people unlimited time off. They often don't take all of it. So you need to be really open about, let's say prime the room is what I like to say. You prime that conversation. So whenever you sit down with somebody, you can tell them this is a time for us to be open and honest with each other. This is a time where we can be transparent when you're actually in it with them. Or you can try and schedule out times where you have coffee, times with each person, each employee who's on your team, where they can kind of get to know you and your personality to where it's not always go, go, go that you can sit moments and you can get real curious and ask them questions. And the more you get them to talk, the more they're going to open up with you about what they really feel.

[Dave Ramsey]

Tanya, are you guys doing scheduled one on ones with your direct reports? Yes. Okay. Are the one on ones a two way discussion or a one way discussion? Primarily two way. Not as much because there's a few that are a little bit more reserved. Yeah, well, I mean your CPAs. Hey now. Hey now. Come on, Dave, don't be hating, all right? I'm not hating. I'm just. It's fun. I think it's an extension of what Jefferson was just saying. I completely agree. What he said was exactly right. Saying that there's an open door policy, doesn't work. But what you do is in the one on ones do spend some personal time learning about family and kids and dogs and, you know, the horse farm they want to buy or whatever the flip is going on in their life. Right. Find out what's actually going on. And once you've, you know, the more you've done that, if you've done that for a year and you're doing bi weekly one on ones, you've had a lot of personal conversations and the more rapport you build, I think the more chance you've got of them opening up because they begin to trust. Is that fair, Jefferson?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, absolutely. And you, when you can ask questions that put them somewhat in the driver's seat, right, that you ask questions as a, what could we be doing better? How can we better serve you? What are the things that you wish that we were doing here? Or what would it look like if we did five times, 5% better than we did yesterday? What are some things that you would change? So any way that you can get them in the driver's seat? People like to share that kind of stuff and biggest thing is because they feel like they can't open up you need to leave with language like help me. I want you to help us get them included. Make them feel like they're part of that decision making process and you're going to get more information out of them almost every time.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, very good. Solid stuff. Good question, kiddo. So one of the things we teach people is to do one on ones and I'm not real good at it. Some of our leadership team here, we've instituted it much more widely in Ramsey since I, since I have come up through the ranks are built.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Don't you think you're very good at it?

[Dave Ramsey]

I'm so task oriented and I'm just. Whatever we're working on, we work on mission driven. It's like band of brothers. We fight together, we work together and in the process we build relationship in the process. I may hear some things that I need to hear but the formal are the more. It's not formal but the more structured time of. I have this one on one set which I still. I do have one on one set. I mean my son's the president and we have a one on one once a week and about business, not about father, son and president to CEO. And so and we do catch up. We do all of the things we're talking about there. But I was more draw and shoot out of my hip pocket rather than structured processes as we were being entrepreneurial growing this place. So I'm not as comfortable in the rhythm of that as a lot of our good leaders are around here. And I do see the huge value in it. I'm just saying I'm deficit in it. I'm just not that good at it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I think you just take it in a different way. There are people like you that very task oriented and you build the relationship through the difficult. It's through working it in the mission. That's where the relationship is built. I think there's nothing wrong with having one on ones. I think there's a right way or a wrong way. What I love about one on ones is it allows you to get really creative at finding the right question rather than trying to sift for the right answer. It's the question that's going to allow you to have that one question that's going to go this is what's going to take us to the next level.

[Dave Ramsey]

You know, we did a thing years ago and we still do it. But it's in the software now in the entree leadership software, a weekly report. And in the weekly report we would have. It used to be just people print it up and, you know, put it on a piece of paper and send it to the. And then later, they would just use electronic. Who knew? But we literally printed the paper at one point, but we just said, put a high and a low. And I'm so dumb. I thought, you know, like, a business high was I made a big sale this week, or a business low was I missed a sale. Or this negative thing happened in the office. This positive thing happened in the office, and people started putting personal stuff on there. Like, my dog's sick.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I'm like, what in the world? I almost said, you guys don't get it. And then I suddenly realized that information was as valuable as the other information. So shut up and let it be on there.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because that was that connective point that we're talking. That connective tissue.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

That we're talking about there. That you might not. And because it was written and it was just them being vulnerable about a high or a low. You know, I'm happy I got my first house, or I'm sad I broke up with my boyfriend. I thought he was the one, you know, and that kind of stuff was on there. And I'm like, I think I'm running a beauty parlor. But I wasn't. It was just human stuff. And I'm like, I have to appreciate this.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. It's the little moments. I mean, you can always have the big goal, but what matters and what connects people is the little moment. It's the little conversation in between each other that really makes the big impact overall. One thing that I do at my law firm is we always ask the question once a month is, what's. What's your personal win? What's been your big personal win? And you get to hear about their kid who made an A or somebody who, you know, they just got a new dog or whatever it is. But it's those little moments that they feel like they're. They're not alone. They're not just a cog in the wheel.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. I'm not just a production unit.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And I stumbled into it. I had no idea. I thought I was getting business information. Nope. Not at all. Got veterinarian reports. I love it. Jefferson Fisher. The next conversation. Argue less, talk more. More. When we come back on the entree leadership podcast.

[Tanya]

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[Dave Ramsey]

Entree if you want business theory from somebody who's never done it, you got the wrong podcast. I've been leaving the cave, killing it, and dragging it home for a long time. And that's all we care about is teaching you how to do that. It's called productivity, baby. And this is not theory. This is practitioner stuff. And it upsets some of you. And that's good because that means you got you to thinking. So that's what we're here for. If you want to participate today, the phone number's 844-944-1070. The next conversation, Argue Less, Talk More is the book we're talking about with Jefferson Fisher. He is an Instagram sensation and extremely successful trial lawyer. And we're taking calls about communication and boundaries and conversations and so forth. So how many posts have you done on Instagram?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I think I'm up to maybe close to 300 or so.

[Dave Ramsey]

Is that all?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, not very many.

[Dave Ramsey]

Well, this thing's blown up.

[Jefferson Fisher]

There's a lot.

[Dave Ramsey]

I was gonna guess thousands.

[Jefferson Fisher]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I'm not at a thousand. Okay, so what, 500. But it's less than five. It should be less than 500.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Is there one or two that just went bananas?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, there are a few that hit over 20 million probably.

[Dave Ramsey]

I was thinking, because the ones I see something come through and I go, dad gum, that was good. That was really good. And so what of one of the top ones? What was the post about?

[Jefferson Fisher]

How to handle someone who belittles you.

[Dave Ramsey]

Oh, how do you do it?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, you ask them to repeat what they said. So if you were to say something belittling to me and say, can you. Can you say that? I need you to say that again. You say it again. Or I didn't catch that. A lot of the times they won't. They'll tweak what they said because they realized what they said the first time didn't hit. So now they're not getting that hit of dopamine. They'll tweak it or you can they get meaner? No, they'll typically, they either won't do it, they start self editing, or they say, never mind. They'll say, forget it. Or you can even repeat it back to them. So if they said something rude, you slowly repeated it back to them as if it's not touching you, then they just kind of feel silly. You just took all the fun out of it. You're a big wet blanket on it. So if you can add about seven seconds of nothing, usually that's all it takes. But if you were to ask a question like, did you. Did you say that to belittle me? Did you say that to upset me? And then all of a sudden they'll backtrack. But that was probably the one that went the most. That's viral.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's funny. I could think about funny times that that's happened. Like, there's a rule in, you know, when you're doing these days, we don't have bookstores left anymore, but we used to go out to bookstores and have book signings. And the longer stand in front of you after they've stood in line, there's a direct proportion of them saying something they'll regret for the rest of their life. Cause they're nervous. They're a little bit starstruck maybe, and they're trying to be cute or they're trying to. Or they just. They just have a vomit moment. And I've had them say some of the strangest things to me. They just walk up and go, oh, you've gained a lot of weight since the picture on the book.

[Jefferson Fisher]

They don't know what to say.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so I guess I would have to just. Did you say I've gained a lot of weight since the picture on my.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah. Did you mean to say that out.

[Dave Ramsey]

Loud or were you just. You thought that stayed between your ears?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, exactly. You got it. That's so True. That was the one that blew up. Yeah, that blew up.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's interesting. So what happens is that there are enough toxic humans, even direct in person, that are willing to say something belittling that. That was a need that people had. And when you answered that need, if the thing took off.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Absolutely.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's amazing.

[Jefferson Fisher]

A lot of my content that gets shared the most are dealing with toxic personalities, handling disrespect, narcissism. A lot of just the bad stuff. The ones that get shared the least are things about like, be a better listener. Nobody likes to. Nobody wants to take that kind of advice. They want to poke at the people who've done something to them. Isn't that funny?

[Dave Ramsey]

Want to hit back somewhere? You got it. Which you kind of missed the whole point of the Jefferson Fisher movement here, people.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right, Jake is with us in St. Louis. Jake, your question for Jefferson.

[Jake]

Hi, guys.

[Dave Ramsey]

Thanks for taking my call. Sure.

[Jake]

I am part of a third generation family construction business, Gen 2. My dad and two of his siblings are current owners. We have about 100 team members and last year we had revenues about 23 million. How do we plan strategically to avoid costly mistakes within the family business? And then I guess within that for me would be like, what suggestions do you have for leading up within a family business when that means leading up to family members?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Well, I think that you cover a lot there. It depends what kind of conversation you're wanting to have with them. What I would encourage you to do in any of these is to make sure that you have a goal for that conversation. Often people don't know what they want to say until they're already talking. So I would encourage you to outline on paper what are the goals for the conversations? And don't try to attack it all at once. When you talk about everything, you talk about nothing. All right. So you want to make sure that you line out one issue per conversation. Don't try to pack it in all at once, whatever it is you're trying to talk about. Dave, do you feel that way?

[Dave Ramsey]

Absolutely. Absolutely. So you're how old?

[Jake]

I am 32.

[Dave Ramsey]

And your dads and brothers run the place? Their dads and his brothers?

[Jake]

Yes, Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

Three brothers run it. How many of your cousins are in the thing?

[Jake]

I have one cousin and then my brother is in it as well. So we have three members of Gen 3.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And how old's your dad? Bunch in their 60s.

[Jake]

My dad's in his 50s. But then his siblings are in their 60s.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And your dad's late 50s? Yeah. Okay. All right. So have we discussed succession?

[Jake]

There's been little succession planning, and very poor at that.

[Dave Ramsey]

What do you mean by poor?

[Jake]

For a long time, it was just kind of put off, like, oh, we'll take care of it when it comes to it. Well, now one of the siblings, brothers, I guess, is in the next couple years wanting to bow out. And so there's a bit of a mad rush now to try to figure out some of that succession plan. And then there's. Besides that brother leaving, there is no further discussion after that, is there?

[Dave Ramsey]

Are they. Are those brothers second gen, or are they all three first gen?

[Jake]

They are second gen.

[Dave Ramsey]

So their dad started it.

[Jake]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay, all right. And they're. And you guys are construction.

[Jake]

Correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

All right. Not planning is a plan. It's a really bad plan, but it is a plan. And too many people grab their chest, fall back into the grave, and toss the keys out as they're dying.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's good. I haven't heard that before.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's their succession plan. Right. And they wait till the last second or they just, y'all figure it out when I'm gone, which is like a curse on the family. So the probability of you all being in business 20 years from today is probably less than 10%. You're probably going to go out of business if they don't deal with this, because the mess that these three goobs are going to leave behind with no planning is going to destroy the place. Does that make sense?

[Jake]

Yes, absolutely.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so how close are you relationally with your dad?

[Jake]

Very close.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

All right. And I'm curious what kind of. When you say mistakes, you know, what are you. What's your main concern? What are you. What are you most worried about?

[Jake]

Well, so kind of like Dave meant, like, I would love for this to have the opportunity to become a fourth, fifth, sixth generation family business, if that allows for it. But like, last year, on 23 million in revenue, we lost over $700,000.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so operationally suck this.

[Jake]

This past year.

[Brent]

Yes.

[Jake]

Previous two years were some of our best years ever. And then all the. Yeah, we have outdated systems and little strategic planning to go along with it and all that, if you want to call it dysfunction, I guess. Kind of just caught us with our pants down last year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. When the tide goes out, you can tell who is skinny dip.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yep. Yep.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Well, there's a lot of layers to fixing this. And I think I would start with your best connective tissue, which is to your dad. And I would take him to breakfast one Saturday Morning. And say, dad, I love you and I love this place and I love working here, and I'd love to see it be 4th generation, but I don't think we're going to make it. I think it's going to crash. Because you guys refuse to deal with the details of a handoff. And I don't need you to hand it to me today. But everybody in the next generation, and the employees and the customers and the vendors need to know what the flip's going to happen. Because all that uncertainty is going to drive away our talent, our connections and our customers. And it is because the outside is looking at. Outside world's looking at this, going, when these three goobs die, this thing's gonna crash. And I don't wanna have a building halfway up. Yeah, you're losing customers. And you probably. If not now, you will be in five years as these guys get a little bit older, even. So, Dad, I need some help. And so that's one thing I would do, is just try to use that connective tissue however you can and say, I'm willing to work on it. And do we need to call everybody together? How do you think we should handle it? But, dad, not handling it is handling it poorly. And then the other thing I would do, other than that, as a separate part of the discussion, I don't know whether you lead with this, Jefferson, you can coach me on this, is I have found that old crusty guys like me, and I'm the same age as this bunch. Okay. And I'm gonna say this out loud. I probably shouldn't, but I have found that the. They're not founders, but they're acting like founders. That honoring the people that are in place as a part of the conversation, extending honor. You guys are amazing. You built a $23 million business, and you built something even beyond yourselves. Y'all are amazing. And we wanna honor that by being able to continue it. Giving them honor somehow moves the needle with these people. Does that make sense?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I love that. Yeah. There is a very strong, I think, generational value of continuing the tradition, passing the torch, being able to honor what has been had and to continue to live up to that. Another thing I'd encourage you to lead with is because it is your father. All right, here's where you get to say, dad, I'm going to tell you this because you've taught me to X. So bring in to the lessons and values that he has taught you. You've taught me to say it with my chest. You've taught me to speak up when I need to say things. You've taught me to be transparent and be honest and this is what I'm making sure that I'm living up to. So a lot of the times when you come at it with what you've been taught, particularly when you have as special of a relationship as your dad, that is going to also embolden him to take pride in you as his son of what he is passing on and what he has in front of him.

[Dave Ramsey]

Now let's turn left and go negative. You ready? You do everything you can do and these guys refuse to do anything. Do you want to be rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic?

[Jake]

No.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And you're gonna have to. At some point you're gonna have to say that and you're gonna say, I'm gonna have to take my skills and I'm gonna open a construction company or I'm gonna open a whatever over here and I'm gonna have to go on my way because I'm not going to ride this thing to the bottom of the ocean. Right. That is very emotional and very difficult for you to do. But you need. And I don't want you to throw that at them ever. If you can avoid it. This is not because they're not gonna do this to avoid losing you. They're gonna do this because it's the right thing to do. It's the honorable thing to do. It's good for the customers. It's good for the heritage that their dad set in place. That's the reason these men are gonna do this. They're not gonna do it because the 32 year old told them to go do it.

[Jake]

Yeah.

[Dave Ramsey]

So don't throw your thing up. But also, as a man, at some point you've got to go, these guys aren't going to deal with this. This thing's going to go NASCAR and the engine's going to go up in the stands. This thing's going to disintegrate. And I don't want to be in the driver's seat. I don't want to be in the passenger seat. You're not in the driver's seat. But I mean, that's a year from now, two years from now, and they still refuse to do anything. And it's getting worse instead of better. That's a decision you're going to have to make at some point too. So hopefully though, you can begin a conversation by extending honor and calling back on the values that you were taught. That's a great. I love that point and you can get these guys to begin to move off center. But they're not going to do it because of you. They might do it because you talk your dad into making them do it. That might work. But they're not going to do it because of you. Not this bunch. Now these are construction guys. They care very little about your feelings.

[Jefferson Fisher]

That's very true.

[Dave Ramsey]

Jefferson Fisher. The book is the Next Conversation. You guys hang with us. We're going to talk more with you guys out there in the world of Entree leadership. Man, it's a great conversation. I'm learning stuff today. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Organizations are never limited by their opportunity. They're only limited by their leader. Which is why it's so important to invest in your leadership through life changing experiences like Entree Leadership Summit. You'll be poured into by top leadership experts so you can catapult your business forward in 2025. To join us in Denver, Colorado, May 18 through 21, go to entreeleadership.comsummit or click the link in the description if you're listening on YouTube or podcast. Strategies for resolving conflict through connection. The importance of not aiming to win an argument. Techniques for asserting oneself and communicating with intention. These are some of the things you're gonna learn from Jefferson Fisher when you read the book the Next Conversation. Argue less, talk more. And he's our guest today answering your questions on the subject of communication, boundaries, conflict, and so on. And trial lawyer by trade, but also an Instagram sensation. They'll be speaking at our upcoming Entree Leadership Summit and we want you to be there so you don't miss out on all the Jefferson Fisher you can get. Up next is going to be Taylor in Huntsville, Alabama. Hi, Taylor. What's up? Hey, Dave.

[Taylor]

It's an honor to talk to you.

[Dave Ramsey]

You too, man.

[Taylor]

I am a partner in a digital marketing firm. We're about 5 million in gross revenues with about 20 employees. The firm's been around for about 20 years. I've been there as a partner for about half that time. And I'm trying to decide when is the time to look at dissolving a partnership and look for another opportunity or to stick it out through some challenging times with my business partner.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Have you had this discussion at all with your business partner? Have y'all talked about this topic at all? How does. How has it gone?

[Taylor]

It didn't go well prior to his health concerns back in 2020. Excuse me, 2022. He was looking to retire, coming back from those health issues. He's Got a new view on the business. And, and really it's starting to try to weed me out of some of the business decisions. And so I'm trying to decide, do I just try to work with them or is it time for me to look for other opportunities?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Is there a partnership agreement at all that outlines any responsibilities or how that needs to run?

[Taylor]

There's a partnership agreement that talks about our equity, but not necessarily the roles and responsibilities as the owner.

[Dave Ramsey]

How about, how about exit strategy? How about exit strategy?

[Taylor]

Only if I was looking to retire and I would have to be there for 20 years to consider that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. And what percentage do you own?

[Taylor]

20%. So I'm a minority partner.

[Dave Ramsey]

It's just the two of us and. Okay. All right.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And what's your gut? What does your gut tell you when you bring up this topic? When you think about it, because you're the one that's been living with it and thinking about it. When you brush your teeth, what's your gut tell you?

[Taylor]

I'm 50 years old. You know, I've got a decade and a half left in a career, if it's that long. And you know, my gut feeling is saying look for another opportunity. It's not worth the stress, the anxiety and dealing with my business partner in this situation for the rest of those 15 years.

[Jefferson Fisher]

And what's holding you back from leaning into that gut feeling?

[Taylor]

I brought. I've been there for, you know, 20 years after that as a partner and I brought all the relationships into it with the client. So it's like leaving a family that I brought into the business and watching it go away. So just a concern that is it time for me to leave or, you know, do I stick it out?

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. Is there a non compete of any kind?

[Taylor]

There is a non compete that I can't go into the same industry, but I could work for businesses in there, digital marketing for a year.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. All right. And if you were to leave, is there any kind of. There's no buyout provision. You're just going to walk away from your equity? Is that the only option?

[Taylor]

No, there is a buyout provision. They he would have to buy me out of my, my percentage.

[Dave Ramsey]

What's it worth?

[Taylor]

Probably at this time, 300,000 to 350.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

My question is, are you holding on to what it is right now? Are you holding on to the memories that you have of what it was?

[Taylor]

I'm holding on to the relationships that I've built over a good career.

[Dave Ramsey]

How many of those will move to your new firm? A year later.

[Taylor]

I probably because of the non compete, I would not go after them and for probably three to five years.

[Dave Ramsey]

But that's not what your non compete says.

[Taylor]

Correct. I probably could take a good handful, 10 to 12 with me in about a year, year and a half.

[Dave Ramsey]

Okay. Is that what you, I mean, do you want to run a business that does that? I don't think that's a. Lacking in integrity, by the way. It's what the deal is.

[Taylor]

Right. I could look at doing that, you know, to start another firm myself from the ground up. I don't think I'm ready for that. But to partner with somebody else and come into it or oh, you've had.

[Dave Ramsey]

So much fun partnering, why do you want to do that again?

[Taylor]

Because as you've said, any ship that doesn't sell as a partnership and it's been, it has been a stressful.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, I wouldn't do it again. I start something or I go to work for somebody.

[Taylor]

Right.

[Dave Ramsey]

One of the two. But being a minority shareholder is not a fun deal.

[Taylor]

I agree.

[Jefferson Fisher]

So a lot of that is. This is what I'm hearing is you're still there because of the relationships. You're there because of the emotion. You're there because of your heart, but your gut. But the analytical side is telling you you've done this, you left it on the field and you're good walking away. I think the question is you need to have some confidence within yourself of knowing that the relationships are still there. Even if you go and do something else, the people are people outside of where you're at. So I don't want you to feel like just because you leave, you've left a part of your identity. Most likely the company that it is now is not what it was when you were originally started. It's different and it's never going to be back to where it was. And so I think you need to also have a sense of confidence of knowing that wherever you go, the same people will find you.

[Dave Ramsey]

So if you bought him out, you'd need 900k?

[Taylor]

That is correct.

[Dave Ramsey]

And where would you get that?

[Taylor]

I do not have it in reserves. I would have to borrow it or.

[Dave Ramsey]

Find other investors or pay him out over a few years. What's the net profit on the 5 million?

[Taylor]

Probably 750,000 after the two of us are paid out.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. So you could eat easily and pay him off in one year.

[Taylor]

Right. Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

So I think I'm probably going to say I'm going to steal what I've learned from Jefferson this hour and say we need to have a difficult conversation. This is not going to be fun. You know, we were talking before you were sick about you leaving, and I was looking forward to me finishing this up and you moving on to retirement. And now you've changed that game, and I'm not okay with that.

[Taylor]

Okay.

[Dave Ramsey]

And so we need you and I need to talk about which one of us is leaving.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I think that's exactly right. Yeah. You need to make sure and tell him, number one, what you want to talk about. Two, tell him how you want the conversation to end. What's the goal, how you want the conversation, and what do you want to walk away with?

[Taylor]

That makes sense.

[Dave Ramsey]

And I'm okay if you say, Jefferson, you may want to correct me on this. I could be wrong, but because it's very emotional. I mean, we're going to start a conversation today, we're going to end it within the next few weeks to give you time to process this information. But the conversation sounds like this. You know, you went out sick. We thought that you were moving, and when you came back, you said, you're staying. And now I'm not okay with where we are. And I either. I want to talk about you either buying me out or me buying you out. I would prefer to buy you out. But let's begin a conversation talking about that, and you go home and talk to your wife about it, and let's get back together on Thursday.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I love it.

[Taylor]

Okay.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The only thing I would tweak is that when you say, lead with what you want to talk about. So it's, hey, I'd love to talk about our. I want to talk with you about our current structure, and then add in what Dave just said, and I want to walk away with the understanding that this is not a conversation that's concluding today. It's not going to finish tomorrow. It's a conversation that's going to last several weeks, and I want to have your interest and your help in it. Can we do that? He's probably going to say yes, and then that's where you got it.

[Taylor]

All right. That sounds great. I appreciate that insight.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah, that's. You know, just because, like, when we're having a difficult conversation with a team member that's struggling with competency or a behavior or something, we'll say, today we're not talking about anyone leaving the building. I love that today we're talking about something that has to be corrected. But if we get to that point, if this isn't corrected, we're going to get to that point and we will be real clear and let you know when we're at that point. And so they don't have to think, is there something else going on in this conversation that I don't know about? No. Very clearly saying, we're not making that decision today, but we are beginning the process of, of deciding which of these is going to happen. Either the change or the leaving.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I love that. Because it removes the anxiety.

[Dave Ramsey]

Exactly.

[Jefferson Fisher]

From the conversation when somebody's going, am I, are you firing me today? I mean, it's that we need to talk. Text that you don't know what's, you don't know what's going on. It's like office space, you know, you have no clue what's going to go on. So I love that this is not a conversation where anybody's leaving at the end of it.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And we're not going to, we don't have to decide today. It's not a pressure cooker. But we are going to conclude this within the next couple of weeks.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, but that gives a sense of relief that now you can actually have the discussion and make space for it. I love that.

[Dave Ramsey]

Yeah. And you can process this and you may go home and go, you know, I am tired. Screw it, I'll sell you.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Well, time has a funny way of removing the difficult out of difficult conversations.

[Dave Ramsey]

Because if it becomes combative because it's pressure cooked, I think you might get a different answer. Do you?

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, because then they feel like they're trapped. Then they feel like they don't have.

[Dave Ramsey]

A. I have to fight to keep it, even though I didn't want to.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Problems happen when you're forced into a conversation you're not ready for. You know when they say, hey, you got five minutes. When they mean, hey, do you have 45 minutes for me to talk to you about something you're not ready for right now? So don't go into a conversation at 10% of yourself when you have to show up for 100%. You're gonna, you're gonna lose now.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's good. Or if you say, you know, you gotta decide right now, then the decision's always, well, I'm gonna fight.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Exactly. Yeah. You just feel like you're backed up into a corner, then you have to show your teeth, then you have to start getting out the gloves.

[Dave Ramsey]

That's it. That's it. Good. Very good stuff. Jefferson Fisher, ladies and gentlemen. The next conversation. Argue less, talk more. He'll be at entree. Leadership. Thanks for hanging out with us.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Thanks for having me.

[Dave Ramsey]

That was a joy. It was a great hour. Very good stuff. Very good stuff. Hey, folks, remember, better a wary warrior than a quivering critic. This world needs more high quality leaders, so take courage and lead. I'm Dave Ramsey, your host. Thanks for listening to the Entree Leadership Podcast.