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- [00:00]
Tom Edwards
The Entrepreneurs on Monocle Radio is brought to you in partnership with South Tyrol. From the heart of the Italian Alps, South Tyrol is driving one of Europe's most compelling models for economic development. With environmental sustainability and peerless innovation at its heart, creating an ecosystem that will be a wellspring for the region and its businesses. A place where the future of resilient high quality business is already being built. South Tyrol is taking its great companies spanning craft, industry, farming, technology and services on a global journey. Unlocking new channels, markets and platforms, taking South Tyrol international. Many outstanding South Tyrolean enterprises are small and medium sized, but unified by the strength of their connection to the region. Strong local roots and identity with truly global ambitions. Planning today for for sustainable success tomorrow and beyond. Find out how South Tyrol's on the way to the very top. Visit www.sir tyrol biz now. South Tyrol Quality for life.
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Interviewer (Monocle Radio Host)
Hello and welco.
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Tom Edwards
Welcome to the Entrepreneurs on Monocle Radio. The show all about inspiring people, innovative companies and fresh ideas in global business. On the programme today, we'll hear about the United Arab Emirates ambition to become one of the 10 largest space industries globally.
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Dr. Hamdullah Mohib
It's not just soft power that it wants to project that the UAE would like to see. It wants to see itself turn into a knowledge economy in which we contribute to the global development.
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Tom Edwards
And later we'll head to China to explore the growth of coffee culture in Hong Kong.
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Derek Tso
Over the years, there's more and more competition. The entry barrier is relatively lower. I think people appreciation to coffee is getting a lot better.
- [02:07]
Tom Edwards
This is the Entrepreneurs with me. Tom Edwards, You're listening to the entrepreneurs now. Many people who feature on this show have had a pretty unusual journey to their present position. But even by those standards, our next guest has one of the more extraordinary CVs that we've come across. Between 2015 and 2018, Dr. Hamdullah Mohib was Afghanistan's Ambassador to the United States. He then served as Afghan national security advisor until 2021 before the Taliban retook power in the country. Today, Dr. Mohib is a key player in the UAE's growing space industry as CEO of Marlinspace and acting CEO of orbitworks, which recently signed a major deal with the French space agency Cunes. Dr. Mohib caught up with Monocle's Andrew Muller from Abu Dhabi's make it in the EMIRATES conference, the UAE's flagship platform for industrial transformation. Andrew began by asking Dr. Mohib how significant the recent deal with France was for the UAE's space program.
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Dr. Hamdullah Mohib
It's a tremendous moment because we are a new industry, it's a new economy that the UAE wants to build a commercial space industry. And the French are quite a sophisticated market itself. They have companies like Airbus and Thales that have provided services to the Middle east for a long time, the UAE included. And so for them to rely on a constellation that is built in the UAE and have services is a big endorsement to the technology that we are building here. It means we're building something real. We're not just building technology that can only be used in one region. It means it has global implications. In that it's something that I think proves the point of why we wanted to do this in the first place. We wanted to build technologies that can be exported and not just exported to neighboring countries, but export it to countries like, like France and hopefully in the future to other European countries in the UK and the US as well.
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Andrew Muller
As far as you're able to understand it, what was the appeal of working with the UAE for France, which as you say is quite a well established space power by now?
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Dr. Hamdullah Mohib
I think it's basically we understood what they needed. We were able to build it before anyone else did. I think there was a need for a multi sensor constellation that had AI on board compute and we decided to take the risk. I think that is where the main opportunity came from and give them the comfort that what we are building is going to be able to fulfill their needs. And it did take a long time, it took over a year for us to build that capability and that trust. But it came along because also the French recognize that they need partnerships in this region and they have been a big partner with the UAE on other programs. Space and acquiring space assets perhaps is new to them, but they have been working with the UAE in other areas. And so we piggybacked on that capability and that relationship that already existed to enter a new market.
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Andrew Muller
Well, let's talk a bit about the companies with which you personally are associated. This is Marlon Space Orbit Works. For listeners for whom these may be new names. How would you sum up what they are offering or what they're doing that other companies aren't in terms of furnishing those capabilities you were talking about?
- [05:52]
Dr. Hamdullah Mohib
First of all, Marlin Space is an investment company. It invests in space companies and aerospace companies, which is not new to our market. The only thing that stands out is it only invests in space in aerospace companies. So that's the main area of differentiation in its operating Orbit works, which it does together with a US company called Loft Orbital. And so It's a joint venture that has enabled us to build Orbit Works. Orbit Works is a satellite manufacturer and it builds satellites for customers, bespoke satellites for customers. We also have a testing facility which is also used by some of our other entities in the UAE to test their spacecraft. Those spacecraft can be rovers, can be other satellites, can be payloads that go on satellites. But we also, at Orbit Works, own our own constellation, the Altair Constellation. It's our own constellation in which we invested to offer services. Now, the Altair Constellation is a little different than what you normally have in satellites. Normal satellite business is selling imagery. If you are an earth observation satellite, you take an image and you charge per image. What we are doing different is we are fusing multiple sensors. So it's no longer just a camera, an optical camera. You also have a hyperspectral camera, and then you have a thermal camera along with RF capabilities, which means we can fuse all of those sensors. Plus onboard compute makes it possible for us to offer services other than just taking an image. So we can offer a subscription, which is how we can imagine. Imagine an app store. But for satellites in which you build an app, you take all the sensors on board and you talk to your own app, which means it takes away the need for you to own your own satellite. You have all of the controls, you have all of the sovereignty and the needs that you need in your privacy, because it's your own application that you talk to, but on another satellite for a period of time, which cuts down the cost of owning a constellation of your own. It cuts down on the time it takes to build. And you can also update your application if the needs change. So we're making it easier. And we're introducing a new model of satellite services that makes it quite appealing for companies and for organizations. Our other clients are using these services in a completely different way. One of our clients is the Abu Dhabi Fund for Development. Now, the Abu Dhabi Fund for Development has projects in Africa, in South America. They build roads, they build hospitals. Normally, they track their progress by sending inspectors out to see how many kilometers of road was built. With the services that we are offering, they can not only track how many miles of road was built every day, but they can also see over a longer period of time, let's say a year or two, how that road has impacted that community. Has it improved the economic situation in this so that they can compare their projects across the globe with other projects and start to invest and double down where they have the most impact so they can run their own application on our Constellation, whereas a defense client will run its own application on its client. Both of them live side by side with complete separation and complete privacy, just like we would today on a cloud computing. We're bringing cloud computing type of model to satellite services.
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Andrew Muller
We're always interested in talking about the personal stories of the people involved with the companies that speak to us on the entrepreneurs. What was the beginning of your interest in this field? Because again, to bring listeners up to speed, you had quite the picturesque CV up until this point. You were Afghanistan's Ambassador to the United States, National Security Adviser to the government of Afghanistan before the Taliban retook the country in 2021. Was space always an interest for you while you were working in politics and diplomacy?
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Dr. Hamdullah Mohib
It definitely was. So my first interaction with space services was when I was the Director of Information Technologies at the American University of Afghanistan. This is just after the civil war and just after the Taliban rule. We did not have fiber optic cables to run our Internet services. And so we relied on satellites to have our basic communication needs met. And then as I shifted to government services, especially in my last role as a National Security advisor, our country was at war. We could not go to places, we could not do census. We didn't have services offered in rural areas where there was conflict. Satellite services helped us identify the number of people in those areas. So that's how we counted people. But it was also understanding the terrain. And even for a country as basic as when it comes to technology, as Afghanistan had a lot of reliance on space. And when I came to the UAE and as we were building Marlan space, we were thinking about how could we now enhance those capabilities. So the idea of development projects being tracked, they were ghost schools in Afghanistan and they were ghost schools because nobody could go and track them. And so with our offer to Abu Dhabi Fund for Development is how do we solve for those real problems? As someone who has been on the other end of governance and on the other end of technology users, we wanted to build in the DNA of Marlan Space and Orbit works services that solve real problems. And so the past is as much as part of the journey as the current is.
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Andrew Muller
In that context, is it your sense that the government of the United Arab Emirates sees possible soft power applications to a UAE space program as well the idea that UAE branded spacecraft could be in the heavens solving problems for less fortunate countries on the ground, of course,
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Dr. Hamdullah Mohib
that's the goal of every country where they're offering services and help, let's say building roads in hospital, that is soft Power, but in this case, it's a little bit more than that. What we are building is a knowledge economy. The UAE has relied on oil economy for a long time, and they have have had ambitions to move away from that, and they have diversified. The UAE has diversified in many other areas. There is production of steel, there is a lot of agriculture. Now internally, in investments across the globe in technologies and in traditional industries such as tourism. High tech is one of those pillars in which it feels, the UAE feels it needs to make a big impact because these are the ones that are the highest ticket items. So a satellite service is much more expensive than some of the other services that we could export. So it's not just soft power that it wants to project, that the UAE would like to see. It wants to see itself turn into a knowledge economy in which we contribute to the global development. This project, for example, the fact that we are today offering services, export services in space, is a huge leap from its humble beginnings.
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Andrew Muller
Do you have any sense or any worry that recent events have derailed any of that? Because obviously one of the UAE's great selling points to the world was that it is this oasis of stability in a usually volatile region. And the UAE has, through no great fault of its own, been reminded that it's not necessarily entirely immune to the region's difficulties.
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Dr. Hamdullah Mohib
Well, I think the events of the last few months has actually proven something that many doubters had over the uae, and that was it is a soft place and it cannot defend itself. It will always need. If one incident happened, people would leave. Well, it has proven that despite these tremendous number of attacks coming towards it, it has been able to defend its territory and its population. And I think that has added to the confidence level in the industry at least. I work with. I work with a lot of people who are not Emiratis who have come here to work. And their safety is important to me. And then, of course, it's important to our company's survival. And they have all shown a tremendous amount of confidence seeing how the UAE has responded to. It's not the fact that it got attacked, it's the fact that it was able to contain and respond in ways to protect its territory and the people that live in it.
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Andrew Muller
But that said, has there been any, I guess, change in the tone of conversation around the space program, particularly in recent weeks, that it's going to need to play a greater role in the UAE's future defense?
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Dr. Hamdullah Mohib
I think the conflict has definitely going to. Will be changing the outlook of how this entire region sees itself. And how it starts to look into building capabilities so that it can better prepare and defend itself. Space services are one of those areas where we need to have more capabilities in order to not be surprised. In companies that previously provide services, prioritize their own governments so they not necessarily providing services to a country that's currently under attack, but their own governments because they're more important to, they're more important clients to them. Having your own capability where it cannot be cut off is even more important to have today than it ever was before.
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Andrew Muller
I also wanted to ask a bit about that regional picture because obviously there's been huge investments made in space by Saudi Arabia and Oman, Iran as well. Do you perceive the makings there of what we might have thought of during the Cold War as a space race, or is it more cooperative and collaborative than that?
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Dr. Hamdullah Mohib
I think in any high tech industry it's impossible for one country or one region to completely dominate. So there has to be collaboration. I think sovereignty in this case is more by collaboration. We will never be able to have complete vertical integration of space assets, space services. It's about building the right type of partnership so that we can be a significant partner and a contributor. This is why we built orbitworks as a joint venture. This joint venture is between a US company and an Emirati company. But this US Company, Loft Orbital, also has a base in France which became critical for us to use for the services that we offer that government and also to secure the supply chain. It's not just building a facility is not enough. We have to build the partnerships to be able to secure all the different parts that go into a sophisticated and complex machine, such as a satellite. And so I think as this region starts to look at space as an important element, it's not so much of competing over the same things, but it's more of complementary capabilities. So Oman, for example, has a coastline that's more, more amenable to launching rockets from than perhaps Saudi Arabia or the UAE would be. And in the same way the UAE has the infrastructure to attract talent. We have schools, it's easy to live and has a great life. So it's easier to attract talent. So capabilities, other capabilities could be built here. I would say if we were to build an ecosystem for space assets, it would have to be more collaborative. I personally believe that a rising tide lifts all boats and I think we have to work with all of our partners in the region to try to build these capabilities because if we try to do it all by ourselves, we will never be able to succeed. In the same way as if we work collaboratively.
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Andrew Muller
I mean, how much more needs to go into that aspect you mentioned though, of building the infrastructure that attracts talent? Because there is talk of an actual satellite manufacturing base in Abu Dhabi, which is obviously going to be a fairly substantial production. What does that require in terms of just the room you need, the funding and the personnel?
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Dr. Hamdullah Mohib
We had to make quite a lot of difficult decisions. We're literally building spacecraft. This is rocket science as we speak. And so it's not an easy task that we are undertaking. But we also had to make some difficult decisions about where we are going to put this facility. We put it somewhere in between Abu Dhabi and Dubai. And that was a very critical decision because depending on the age and the kind of lifestyle people have, they prefer to live in Dubai or in Abu Dhabi. If you are a family, you have kids, you want to live in Abu Dhabi, which is a much safer, an easier place for kids to be raised. But if you are young and want to live life on the edge, there is Dubai. And so we had to make it equidistant for them for us to be able to attract the talent. And that's something we offer. We tell them we attract people from east and West. Everybody comes with different culture, with different type of living expectations, and so we can offer them all. We are right in the middle where however life you choose and we get asked quite a lot of questions before people decide to come and work with us. And some of those are, I have kids and I would like such and such school. I would like them to. They may be French and say, I would like them to go to a French school. And we can tell them, in fact there is one. And here is the location. And if you worked here, here is how long it will take you to drop your kids off in the morning before you come to work. So there is this infrastructure is extremely important. They ask us question about, you know, banking. Can I bank? Is it safe for me to keep my money in a bank? How do I operate? Can I transfer money? So some of these people who have never been to our region, they don't know what it's like. They've heard in the news that it's the Middle East. And so to them, they lump up the entire region into one. It's difficult for them to separate it, especially if they've never traveled here. And so when I say the infrastructure, I mean all of that infrastructure. That infrastructure means schools, that infrastructure means sporting facilities. That infrastructure means people have hobbies, arts, all of that Already pre exists, they have banking, they have travel arrangement that can make it possible for them to live here. And then we ask them the difficult task to say come and now let's build satellites. But if we didn't have all of the other infrastructure, it would be really difficult to then ask them of this tremendous task. So I think any nation that wants to build needs to think about all of that, think about what is it needed that is a prerequisite before we start to build this high tech industry.
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Andrew Muller
Well, just finally then give us a sense if you will, of what your day to day is like in your role over the next week or two, what are you actually personally going to mostly be working on?
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Dr. Hamdullah Mohib
So my role is largely talking to class customers, investors, clients and also colleagues on the other end. So I talk to people, suppliers who are sending us equipment that we put in our spacecraft. I also talk to customers who are going to use these services. Then I talk to our recruiters who are recruiting people to come and work on these programs. In the last four or five months I've spent more time in AIR than I have spent in my home. And it can range, like I said, from going people to interview people, then to exhibit exhibitions like the one we are currently participating at, to talking to clients. And I meet with ministers in foreign countries who are looking to use our services. And then the next minute I am also trying to solve some logistical issue at the office that we have come to face. So there is never a dull day. Let me tell you that.
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Tom Edwards
That was Dr. Hamdullah Mohib, Acting CEO of Orbitworks, in conversation with Monocle's own Andrew Muller. And you can find out more by heading over to Orb. You're with the entrepreneurs. Derek TSO is the founder of Nodi, a decade old chain of coffee shops with more than 10 locations in Hong Kong and a more recent addition in Shanghai which opened in the last couple of years. Derek recently stopped by the Monocle Radio pop up studio in Shanghai to chat to me about the company's recent rebrand, the changing coffee culture in China and why cafes are still a great medium for connecting people. He began by telling me about the start of the journey.
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Derek Tso
I think I've always wanted to start my own business and it happens that back then I was in Beijing for two years and I think the two years experience has sort of broadened my horizon. Especially in setting your own business, especially in Hong Kong, people tend to be like professionals. But I really wanted to do something different and I came across this opportunity to open a Coffee shop, like a grab and go coffee shop in central Hong Kong. So I think that's how it all started.
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Interviewer (Monocle Radio Host)
And tell me a bit about this. So how long ago are we talking now?
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Derek Tso
So the very first shop we opened is 2014, but we rebranded it to Naughty, which is this year marks the 10th anniversary, but it's still.
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Interviewer (Monocle Radio Host)
So we're talking a decade, a decade and a bit. How's the coffee culture obviously in Hong Kong, but also across, across China more broadly? How's that changed in that time? Because it really feels like certainly in the last five years it's really kind of moved forwards a lot. But tell me what your impression is.
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Derek Tso
I think back then there weren't a lot of specialty coffee joints. So when we first started it was mostly Starbucks. And there's another coffee shop called FIO which does really good coffee. They're one of the pioneers. But I feel like over the years, I mean, there's more and more competition, the entry barrier is relatively lower and I think people, the appreciation to coffee is getting a lot better. So I think nowadays it's more competitive in Hong Kong and especially in China.
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Interviewer (Monocle Radio Host)
And talk to me about the, I guess the sort of the hospitality side, the service side as well, because again, I think visitors to the wider region, if you go back to a trip, say 10 years ago and change it to now, the service culture again has changed almost beyond recognition. Tell me a bit about that. And how do you structure or ensure the delivery of the service culture that's specific to your business?
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Derek Tso
I think even nowadays with AI and stuff, I think the personal touch is still very important. When I first started 10 years ago, I pretty much stayed at shop every single day to meet my customers. I think a good thing is when I was younger, I'm more talkative. Our clients are super nice customers, they're happy to talk to you. And also I feel like you just need to be within the community. And I feel like the experience, even though when we first started it was just like a coffee joint with our seating, but this is an area where it's the middle of central, where people walk past. When you wait for coffee, you meet long lost friends, long lost colleagues. And I think that's the community and the beauty of running a coffee shop, you get to talk to people more easily. And I think the best thing, the best experience that I had is customers turned friends.
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Interviewer (Monocle Radio Host)
That's beautiful, by the way. Congratulations. Tell me about how difficult it is as you get bigger to ensure that you're maintaining that same service that must Be one of the big challenges.
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Derek Tso
Presumably it is, it is especially manpower, hiring good people and servicing industry, especially FNB is quite tough.
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Interviewer (Monocle Radio Host)
Do you have any secrets hiring wise?
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Derek Tso
No, no. I still like learning every day. But I feel like you attract the similar type of people to work together. So I feel like when you can set an example where how you greet customers, how you talk to them and how do you want to serve, run your business, I think that your colleagues or your staff will know and they tend to not replicate, but I think, yeah, it's important to show them by yourself.
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Interviewer (Monocle Radio Host)
So would you say in a way actually the sort of softer skills? Yeah, I mean even look, connoisseurs will demand technical expertise from their baristas. But you're saying in a way almost the softer skills are more important.
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Derek Tso
Would you say it's more and more important? I think coffee especially like taste is very subjective. Right. People like your coffee, people don't like your coffee. I mean, there's always a better coffee taste or better coffee beans. Right. So I still feel like coffee shop is like a good medium to connect people. And this is our mission. Coffee connects people.
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Interviewer (Monocle Radio Host)
Well, you can hear, listen, everyone's having coffee right now.
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Derek Tso
Listen to the hubbub especially.
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Interviewer (Monocle Radio Host)
Yeah, let's talk specifically about coffee then. Give me a trend. Is there a new bean I should be looking out for a new part of the world? Is there a new, you know, you go back, what, 15 years, no one knew what a flat white was. Now everybody drinks it. Give me a. Give me a coffee trend that I might not know about.
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Derek Tso
Oh, no, no. I mean, I don't know much too, but I'm happy to share.
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Interviewer (Monocle Radio Host)
I think more than me, Jay.
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Derek Tso
I think back in the days, I mean, when we first started, it was only pretty much Starbucks. And I think Starbucks did a good job in terms of educating the customers. Where, oh, where do I get the latte? Where do I get a flat. Well, maybe not flat white, but I think that it actually builds people's knowledge towards coffee and I think that makes a pretty smooth switch to specialty coffee. When you talk about the origins, like beans, single origin, where the beans comes from, how do you make them? Is it a bean to cup or from the farm? Yeah. And I think lately, especially in China, there's a lot of coffee omakase, like where you stand in front of like a barista and you just tell them what you feel like today and they'll make you like special drinks. I think that's a very different kind of approach. I think in general I think specialty Potty Wave is still growing, but at the same time, as you can see, like Blue Bottle, they do instant coffee. I think there's a lot of different options, especially for different customers. But I think as a whole, I think the market grows back bigger and I think that the main goal is people know more about what they really want.
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Tom Edwards
That was Derek, so the founder of nodi. And you can find out more about the business by heading to nodicoffee.com. And that is all for this episode of the Entrepreneurs. We'll be back at the same time next week. Programmes produced by Laura Kramer with audio editing by Jack Dewars. You can listen again and find out more@monocle.com that's where, while you're there, you can subscribe to Monocle magazine and ensure you're reading about better businesses every month. You can also follow us and catch up with the archive wherever you get your audio. If you'd like to get in touch with the program, do email Laura on lrk at monocle.
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Andrew Muller
Com.
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Tom Edwards
I'm Tom Edwards. Goodbye and thanks for listening to the Entrepreneurs.