← The Epstein Chronicles
The Epstein Chronicles
Kathy Ruemmler And Her Epstein Related Transcript From Her Trip To Congress (Part 10) (8/6/26)
00:13:02
Kathy Ruemmler told congressional investigators that she regretted associating with Jeffrey Epstein but maintained that she did not know he was continuing to abuse girls and young women after his 2008 conviction. The former Obama White House counsel...
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Witness/Testifier (Mr. Grant)
what's up everyone and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode we're going to pick up where he left off with Kathy Rumler and her interview with Congress. Mr. Grant, question and the last main gift I'll bring up is the Hermes bag. I believe it was approximately a ten thousand dollar bag. Did you receive that gift from Mr. Epstein? Answer I did. Question and did you similar question just asked were you involved in picking out that gift at all? Answer not that I remember. I do remember the circumstances of the gift, however. And the circumstances were that I had mentioned earlier that in 2016 I had done a trial that was where the damages it was in federal court in California, you know, in Orange county. So it was south of la. And the damages at stake were quite big. I don't remember exactly but I believe the damages claim at least was, you know, several hundred million dollars and I was representing a foreign bank. This was not the Rothschilds bank, it was a different bank. And then you know, trial had some publicity around it and you know, the publicity around it would have suggested that this would have been a very difficult case to defend and that my client, which was a foreign bank, it was actually a foreign Middle Eastern bank, was not very popular defendant in California. And I won the trial and so it was a complete defense verdict. And so there was some media reporting in the legal press around in particular my performance. You know, I had given the closing argument in the case and he sent me a bag as a congratulations gift and I received a lot of other congratulatory gifts after winning the trial from other clients and you know, other associates. Mr. Grant, so in short, this gift also did not strike you as being odd in any way? Answer no, I mean it was, it didn't strike me as odd coming from him Given his wealth and given his general kind of, you know, he was. He was kind of an over the top guy, if you know what I mean. And so, you know, whereas I might have gotten a bottle of really nice champagne, you know, from another client, this guy sends a Hermes bag. This was kind of his. This was kind of, you know, his thing. Question. And one of the main points of the committee's investigation is how Epstein and Maxwell surrounded themselves with influential people, whether that be other billionaires, people in government, people in universities, and well known. Did you ever get the impression that due to your past working in the White House counsel's office, being a very prominent attorney, first in D.C. and then in New York, that Mr. Epstein was trying to provide you with these gifts to keep you in his circle and your connections in his circle? Answer. I did not believe that at the time. And the reason why I didn't, not only didn't believe it, it didn't even cross my mind. And the reason is that, you know, when you leave, when you leave the government service, which, you know, some of you may do at some point in time, you start over and, you know, yeah, I had been the White House counsel, but guess what? That was yesterday and here's today. And so I had to build a practice. I had to perform well and I had to do the work. And I was a lawyer in private practice. I didn't have the ability to, you know, do anything special for him. I wasn't. I was never even asked to do, you know, I wasn't asked to, you know, call somebody in government or anything like that. And so, you know, in my mind, this was a guy who liked to give people gifts. In my mind, they were inconsequential to me in the private practice of law, but also just in professional services generally, people are giving each other gifts all the time. As I noted, it's either, you know, tickets to Knicks games, tickets to the US Open was a big thing. You know, it's a big thing in New York. You know, trips on private planes, rounds of golf, flowers, wine, champagne, you know, all those kinds of things. It's very common. And while, you know, he may have been a little bit extra, it didn't seem extra to me in terms of the significance to him in light of his, you know, wealth. And they were just inconsequential to me. And at the time, you know, I was lucky enough to have been. Had some success in my career and, you know, I was very lucky to be well compensated. And there is nothing that he ever gave Me that I could not have easily paid for myself. And as I said, the one thing he tried to give me that I just thought was too over the top, I said, it's just too over the top. I appreciate the gesture, but no, thank you. Thank you for that. Did Mr. Epstein ever provide you any cash gifts? No. Question did Mr. Epstein ever wire you any money? No. Question did he ever provide you with any checks? Answer I don't believe so. No. Question. Did he ever provide you with any gift cards? Answer yes, he did. Well, he tried, you know, that jack card, it's not a card, but that's what they call it, I guess. But yes, he gave me a Bergdor, Bergdorf Goodman, you know, which is a department store in New York, gift cards at some point. Question and do you recall the value of those gift cards? Answer I don't specifically. What I recall about the context is that this notion of me having a burdensome travel schedule was a constant topic that was raised, right? And a lot of it. I was traveling to Geneva a lot during the time, but I was traveling all over the world. And he thought that I was cheap in traveling, you know, in economy or, you know, in business class when first class was available. And, you know, this was, this one was his unsolicited comment. And so at one point he said, I'm going to transfer. I don't know whether he said it to me or he said it to somebody on his staff, but he said, I'm going to transfer. American Express points to her so that she can use it to travel. Better to travel in a way. You know, I think people should travel. And so there was some effort, you know, to do that. And apparently, I guess they couldn't do it or something. And so in lieu of that, he sent me these, I guess converted those points, those American Express points into a Bergdorf Goodman gift cards, and he gave them to me. They were sent to my office. And it just. And it wasn't just one. I remember it was multiples. And I think, you know, maybe each one was worth like a thousand or five hundred. I shared them with a number of assistants in the law firm. Question the Amex points were actually my next question, so thank you for answering that. Also. Question did Mr. Epstein give you access to any other perks offered by his American Express black card, such as lounges, airport lounges, the Amex Centurion concierge service, or anything of that nature? No. Were you ever under any healthcare plan of Mr. Epstein's? No. And I know you mentioned denying the Private jet card as a gift from Mr. Epstein. Do you recall any other gifts you denied from Mr. Epstein? He offered to fly me on his plane to Paris when I had to go to Geneva to. To present to the board in the bank. And he offered to fly me to Paris on his plane and then I could from there go on to Geneva. And I declined that invitation, you know, gift. Did you ever receive any loans from Mr. Epstein? No. Question. Did you ever request a loan from Mr. Epstein? Answer. No. Question. Did you ever have any loans forgiven by Mr. Epstein, whether they be outside loans that he was willing to pay off for you? No, I did not. Question. Did Mr. Epstein ever provide you with any ownership or voting rights in any entity of his. No. Did Mr. Epstein ever provide you with any real estate? No. Did Mr. Epstein assist you either home hunting or apartment hunting? I was looking for an apartment in New York, and I was going to see the apartment with my broker, and he called me and said when he called you, what he would say is, I'd say, hello. And he would say, what? What's doing? And that was. That was his, hey, what's up? He would say, what's doing? Like, what are you doing? And so I said, I'm going to look at an apartment. And he goes, oh, do you want me to come look at it? I said, sure. I never purchased real estate in New York before. And so he came and looked at the apartment that I was looking at and expressed his unsolicited opinion that it was not an apartment that I should buy. Question. Did Mr. Epstein ever ask you for any personal favors of any kind? Answer. He asked the only thing that I can recall him asking me to. He asked me for, you know, referrals to lawyers. I didn't really view that as a personal favor, but he asked whether I could help to arrange for a White House tour for one of his friends.
- [09:08]
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- [09:54]
Witness/Testifier (Mr. Grant)
question that's actually my next question. Also, who is the friend that you set up on a White House tour? Answer it was Mr. Woody Allen and his wife. Question and did you have to use your contacts in the White House to set up that tour? Answer I had a number of contacts in the White House, and so I asked one of them whether they would arrange a tour for Mr. Allen and his wife. Yeah. Question had you met Woody Allen prior to setting up that tour forum Answer I had, yes. Question and were you aware of Mr. Allen's legal history when making these arrangements? Answer his legal history. Question Specifically, his widely publicized sexual abuse allegations? Answer I was aware of, you know, public reporting that had occurred. I believed, I don't know whether it was the 90s or 2000s, but I was aware that there, you know, had been controversy around Mr. Allen. Sure. Question did that controversy ever cause concern to you at all? Answer well, I mean, he was one of, you know, the iconic comedic directors. I certainly had watched many of his films. One of my favorite films to this day is Annie Hall. My favorite actress is Diane Keaton. I knew that, you know, Diane Keaton had given really, you know, she had at some point given a very, you know, heartfelt tribute to Mr. Allen. And I was very happy to help arrange a White House tour, which I had done for hundreds of people over the years for him and his wife just to, you know, see the White House. Wait, I thought she just said she had no contacts anymore. I guess she does. Ms. Tolan, just jumping back in for a moment, why did you say you denied the offer from Mr. Epstein to take the trip on his private aircraft? Because I didn't want to sit on an airplane and talk with him for eight hours. I wanted to go on the plane, put the mask on my sleeping mask and, you know, go straight to Geneva and try to get some sleep on the overnight flight. It was as simple as that. Question Did Mr. Epstein attempt to compensate you for setting up that White house tour for Mr. Allen? Answer no. Andy just asked. He knew that Mr. Allen and his wife were going to be in Washington and, you know, was it possible for them to get a White House Tour? Question Did Mr. Epstein ever personally himself ask you to gain access to the White House in any way, whether for a tour or a meeting or anything of that nature? No. Question. And this was touched on briefly in previous hours. But were you ever formally retained as a lawyer for Mr. Epstein? No, I was not. Never signed Any legal binding agreement to provide legal service? No, I did not. Question by Mr. Emmer, just a follow up on the gifts. Are you aware of Epstein giving anyone else similar gifts that you received? Answer I knew that he had given gifts to our shared client. Again, that I would haircut, you know, handbag, sweater, you know, those kinds of things. Question did anyone ever express being uncomfortable with the gifts that they were receiving from Mr. Epstein? Answer I never heard any expression of any discomfort. Question and you referenced previously the it was common that you'd receive gifts. You specifically mentioned trials, right? Is that right? Question it's common to receive gifts in the professional services world. And so I received many gifts from clients and other associates, you know, professional associates during my years in private practice, as did my partners. Question Approximately how many gifts would you have received from professional acquaintances or clients worth More than 5,000? Answer I don't know that I can quantify it and I don't know that I can specifically, you know, tell you about specific value. You know, there are certain, let's say, you know, concerts or something that you might get invited to where the face value of the tippic typically you would get, you know, you might get invited to a box, right? And the face value of the ticket could be many thousands of dollars. I recall, you know, receiving a Chanel necklace from a daughter of a client that I actually viewed as a very personal because it was something that I knew she had personally taken the time to find, something that she really believed was like, you know, consistent with my style and that I would appreciate. I don't know how I would value it. Question and I believe that I asked you if others around you were uncomfortable with gifts. But for the record, were you ever uncomfortable with gifts that you were receiving from Mr. Epstein? Answer the only gift that I was uncomfortable about receiving because I thought it was excessive was the Jeff the Jet card. But the other ones, no. Mr. Grant, that'll wrap up our second hour. We'll go off the record. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.
- [14:33]
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