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The Epstein Chronicles
House Investigators Grapple With Sarah Kellen’s Role in Epstein’s Operation (5/11/26)
00:16:05
Members of Congress continue to intensify their investigation into the handling and release of the Jeffrey Epstein files, with lawmakers from both parties increasingly framing the issue around justice for survivors and whether the Department of...
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Podcast Host
What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. As Congress continues to make its way through the Epstein scandal, one of the challenges that they're facing, and at least in their mind, is figuring out who is a victim and who isn't. And I think that people like Anna Paulina Luna have caused a lot of confusion when it comes to this debate, because there's no doubt that Epstein had female enablers surrounding him that were helping him. But when Anna Paulina Luna comes out and says that some of those people were at the congressional hearing, she's wrong. None of those people that were the core four, the actual female enablers, were at the hearing. And none of the core four, besides Nadia Marcinkova, maybe should be looked at as victims. At least not my opinion. They were all adults. They all knew what was going on, and they could have went to the police at any time. Whereas Nadia, she was a child, she was brought into this environment, she was groomed, it was all normalized. And then she was abused. And then not only that, but we saw from the documents that she was cooperating with the police behind the scenes. So I think that if we're going to have the discussion about the core four, then I think Nadia Marcinkova has to be looked at in a different light, at least in my opinion, because the circumstances surrounding what she was up to with Epstein in his orbit are a lot different than the other three ladies. And I think that distinction matters. Right? If you're a child and you're brought into an environment and everybody around you is selling drugs and you get put on the corner as a corner boy, you think that's normal? Everybody around you does it. My Uncle Johnny put me out here. What are you talking about? And if those Kids get caught, do they get charged as adults? Of course they don't. Right. Because they're children. And while the situation with Nadia is not, you know, apples to apples, I do think that her situation, her role, deserves a much more nuanced look than the other grown women who did this because they liked the lifestyle, because it was to their personal benefit, because they were able to marry NASCAR drivers. So today we have an article from Politico, and the headline, congress Epstein Probe, raises a thorny question. Who counts as a victim? This article was authored by Haley Fuchs and Erica Ordon. Nearly a year after the launch of the House Oversight Committee's Jeffrey Epstein investigation, lawmakers are now waiting into a thorny debate over whether certain women in Epstein's orbit should be considered co conspirators or victims. And I think the debate's valid. Right. I think it's a good idea for Congress to get to, you know, familiarize themselves with all the people that were involved and what their roles were. But unfortunately, I don't trust people like Anna Paulina Luna to do the right thing. She's more interested in sound bites and narratives. Right. The Republican led panel eager to haul in witnesses who can shed new light on the convicted sex offenders crimes appears to have taken a side and recently asking Sarah Kellen, a top assistant to the late disgraced financier, to sit for a transcribed interview on May 21st. How about you just bring the whole core four in? And furthermore, before you do that, why don't we have the DOJ get rid of the NPA and then let's see how quick the core four want to talk because a lot of them feel like they're protected. They were named in that, you know, non prosecution agreement. So they do have a level of protection down in Florida, without a doubt. But if that NPA was to go away, if that NPA was to be destroyed, then due to the fact that Epstein was in dereliction of it, well, that certainly changes the conversation, doesn't it? Kellen was one of four women named as possible co conspirators in the now controversial 2007 agreement with Florida federal prosecutors that granted all of them immunity while also allowing Epstein to spend minimal time in a county jail rather than face federal sex trafficking charges. One of the biggest corrupt deals in the history of corrupt deals. There's a list of four alleged victims that took plea deals that I think are co conspirators and got let off the hook. Anna Paulina Luna, a member of the Oversight Committee, said recently. And I'd like to bring them in. Well, that's a good idea, but how about you stop maligning the other people? Like calling Haley Robson a human trafficker is beyond the pale. Now, if you want to talk about her bringing girls to Jeffrey Epstein when she was a little girl herself, cool, I get it. Certainly part of the conversation. But you know what she did that these co conspirators didn't do? She had humility. She went and talked to the police, told them her role, told them all about what happened, told them what she knew. Meanwhile, Sarah Kellen Vickers continued to live the high life, going so far as to marry a dude that drove for nascar. But, yeah, she's a big time victim. Notice she never went to the police in the aftermath. Never sat down and said, hey, look, this is the deal. Or how about when Epstein was arrested the first time, Patiently waited for him to get back out, right? Oh, Jeffy, I love you. If you're an adult female and you're recruiting underage girls, you're. You're not a victim. You're a prostitute, a child predator, and a sex trafficker, said representative Nancy Mace, another committee member, in an interview. Certainly the adult women that were recruiting underage girls should go to jail. Bingo. 100%. Not even a question. And you see how Nancy Mace was very specific here to say women that were over age, that were caught trafficking, because that distinction is important. It helps lessen the confusion. But one thing's for damn sure. The core four were integral to what Jeffrey Epstein was doing, and every single one of them should have to answer for it. But few of Epstein's former associates have proven as fraud a subject for federal prosecutors as Kellen. In the immediate aftermath of the Epstein suicide, allegedly while awaiting trial on sex trafficking charges in 2019, federal officials grappled with the question of whether to prosecute Kellan, according to two people familiar with the matter, as well as documents released in the Epstein files. They didn't prosecute her because they wanted to manage the blast radius. That's the whole reason. If they prosecuted her, they had to prosecute everybody else. So of course, they decided not to. Look, this isn't some grand puzzle that we're trying to figure out here. When you get down into the nuts and the bolts and you start looking at the forest through the trees, you see what's going on. The files show that Manhattan prosecutors discussed a possible witness tampering charge for Kellen and that they submitted a prosecution memo concerning her to the then U.S. attorney, Jeffrey Berman. But Kellen argued that she was A victim of, according to the files and people familiar with the deliberations who, like others, were granted anonymity to share private conversations. Prosecutors opted to not bring a case against her. With all that information, with the judge even saying that Kellen was part of it. Why do you think they didn't charge her? Do you think that they would have let you off? I highly doubt it. But when you're trying to contain the narrative, trying to contain the blast radius, you're going to make prosecutorial decisions that don't expand the investigation. And that's what we saw time and time again. A lawyer for Kellen did not respond to a request for comment for the story. House Oversight Chair James Comer said in an interview that several GOP women on his committee were eager to have Kellen testify, and he has deferred to them in deciding which women should be invited to give statements. And in the Epstein probe. Oh, give me a break, dude. Show some courage all of a sudden. James Comer, the great champion of women. What a clown. What an absolute clown. But while some members of Congress support the decision to bring in Kellen, others are also signaling they too recognize the complicated dynamics of questioning a woman who claims to have been sexually abused. For folks who are not trauma informed and folks who don't understand this world, I think it can be easy to say, yes, we should charge this woman, said Representative Latifah Simon. Who are you, by the way? Latifah Simon, who sits on the panel and previously worked in the San Francisco District Attorney's office, Is that like a resume booster? San Fran's an absolute shithole. It's a conversation that should be taken seriously. So this lady has no idea what she's talking about, okay? And frankly, if anyone doesn't understand this world, it's her. When you have this many people that come out and place Sarah Kellen as not only someone that was operational, but somebody that participated in the abuse, you probably should listen to what people are saying. Simon added that she's been providing committee staff with resources on how we look at how we treat and support survivors while they're coming here, how to look at women who historically have been in these situations. At the same time, the committee is is under increasing pressure to surface new information after the Justice Department's haphazard release of the Epstein files and as law enforcement in the UK has seized on opportunities to arrest Epstein associates. In contrast to the US and the continued finger wagging. In the interview last month, Comer blamed the committee's lack of progress in part on disagreements about who is and who isn't an Epstein victim. That is honestly one of the reasons why there's been issues getting documents, related release documents. And some of the victims say, oh my gosh, you didn't redact the names. Well, they were victimizers too, Comer said. Like they recruited other girls to come in. But they, I do believe, were victimized. This is a tough issue. Well, because you're victimized doesn't give you the providence to victimize others, especially as an adult. There has to be some self providence, right? Some self responsibility. And if you're an adult, you know what you're doing is wrong. Sarah Kellen Vickers knew what she was doing was wrong. Adriana Ross knew what she was doing and she knew it was wrong. And so did Leslie Groff. You know, the real victims are here. Them little girls from Palm Beach High School. Those are the victims, not the people who facilitated it.
- [11:26]
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Podcast Host
Kellen had been accused in numerous civil lawsuits of scheduling young girls to give Epstein massages, with one lawsuit dubbing her the Lieutenant in Palm beach, where police investigated Epstein girls told detectives that Kellen would repair rooms for the massages, laying out tables and lotions intended for their use. But when prosecutors were mulling charges, Kellen's attorneys argued that their client was abused, writing that given the fact that we see her basically as a cog in Epstein's wheel and acting entirely at his direction and doing what she did at a time that she herself was in a very vulnerable victim, a non prosecution agreement would be the appropriate disposition. No, it wouldn't. Sorry. So should Ghislaine Maxwell be given the same kind of Runway? Is Glenn Maxwell just a victim too? Is that what we're doing here? I guess Leon Black's just a victim. And you know what? While we're at it, I guess Prince Andrew's a victim. In an interview with the sun published around the period of 2020 in which her lawyers were attempting to fend off potential charges, Kellen also describes herself as a victim, saying that she was raped and abused weekly. During the sentencing in 2022 of Epstein's only convicted co conspirator, Glenn Maxwell, u. S. District judge Allison Nathan described Kellen as a knowing participant in the criminal conspiracy. The judge said that during the trial. Oh, you thought I was making that up? No, she's been called a co conspirator in open court, so I don't want to hear all this B.S. okay, save the B.S. lauren Hirsch, a former sex trafficking prosecutor in Brooklyn who's now the CEO of World without exploitation, a coalition combating human trafficking and sexual exploitation, said situations like Helen's are really common. The oversight panel she suggested, would be better served by focusing on those who could conceivably be considered a victim of Epstein instead of trickier cases like Kellen's. Kellen should be looked at as a co conspirator, okay? She benefited greatly from what was going on. Money, prestige, power, the whole thing. There are a lot of people where it's absolutely clear cut that they should be brought in, Hirsch said of Epstein's associates. So let's start there. Another person who has no idea what she's talking about. Breaking news. Sarah Kellen is one of those associates. Representative Thomas Massie, One of the GOP's most vocal proponents of Congress, using all available tools to bring Epstein's co conspirators to account, had a similar perspective. Asked how one could determine whether someone like Helen is a victim or a perpetrator, Massey said, I don't think you're going to figure that out in the forum that the Oversight Committee has. I think you need to have an investigation with discovery and presentation, adversarial presentation of facts in a courtroom to decide that matters of guilt or innocence. And he's correct about that. There's only one problem. The npa. That shit is the monkey in the wrench. Some members of the House Oversight Committee who worked as or with prosecutors prior to serving in Congress also cautioned it was important to tread carefully. I've prosecuted cases where someone's been a victim and has also been charged with a crime, and that's something that in the due course of justice, a court or jury can determine. Those types of factors can be considered, said Wesley Bell, a former St. Louis county prosecuting attorney. Hey Wesley, how many scumbags did you release back into the streets and how many of them went on to reoffend? Worry a little bit more about that. But he added, given the circumstances at this point in time, anyone connected with the investigation should be called in. Well, that's fair and it's true. How are we going to figure anything out if we don't have a real investigation? Other lawmakers defended the panel's decision to call in Kellen. Representative Melanie Sansberry, a member of the Oversight Committee, said that since the committee's ultimate goal was to support future trials of co conspirators and build an evidentiary basis, it made sense to interview Kellen. Folks like Sarah Kellen were complicit in crimes, stansberry said. Were they also victimized by Epstein? Very likely. That was his pattern of abuse. But does that absolve them from culpability in the case? I think it depends on the specifics and the individual. And that's why DOJ's investigation and investigation and prosecution are of these individuals is really important. And look, I agree with that. 1,000%, super important. And that's all I've ever called for, a real robust investigation into everybody involved. But here's the rub. Does anyone trust the DOJ to do that? I know I don't. So that's why I say we need a special counsel. And you notice nobody's talking about that yet. But they will be. That'll be the next step when things continue to go south and the DOJ continues to break the law and not be fully transparent when it comes to Epstein. You're going to start hearing people call for a special counsel, and I think issues like this one are going to be a deciding factor. So we'll keep an eye on things and when we have some progress one way or the other, we'll get it added to the catalog. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.
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