A (0:00)

What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna get right back to the MCC captain giving an interview to the OIG inspectors. Question. Okay? And then that's what I wanted to clarify. Around versus count. Because that could have happened anytime in between, you know, for these people, anytime in between any of the accounts at any time. They could have showed up and said, let's do a round. Answer Mm. Question real quick. Okay? Question by another investigator. And when she made the round, she just sees the person. She doesn't have to talk to them. Answer. You walk around and if it's at night, you're going to take and shine your light in there because you're not doing account. So as a correctional officer, you know, over the years, you're taught to look at certain things in a cell. When I shine that light in there, I'm shining. I make sure. Because normally inmates will move their foot or. Or move their leg or arm or leg. So I would count flesh. When I see flesh, I could check the windows real quick. Or if they got stuff in hanging that's restricting my view, I could correct it at that time. Hey, take that down. Hey, you so and so, get up. Take the covering down. That's doing an effective round. And you do that for every cell on the block. Question. What about the shoe? Redacted is on duty. Is he the one that's doing the rounds? Answer. Yeah, no, no, no. Officers are doing the rounds. So when he does his rounds, it's normally with a status report, you understand? Question. So not only is he doing it, but also one of the activities rops lieutenants is also doing one. Answer. No, if redacted is in there, he's the one to do that round. Question. And then he gets cut off by the captain. He's going to do the round because he's in the unit all day. Question. Right. And he's actually physically in the unit when he's there. Answer. Yeah, that's his place of duty. Question. All right, so then the, you know, the, the ops or the activities lieutenants, they don't need to then go to the shoe and do rounds on that day. Answer no. Question. It's only when he's not there. Answer Correct. Question. Okay, and then obviously he's only there in the day, right? He's not there at night. Answer. Right. Question. So whoever the ops lieutenant is at night always needs to go and do it. Answer. Gotta go do around. Yep. Question. And that's what you meant when you said Redacted, didn't conduct around. You're talking about she didn't actually do the inmate count, the inmate round? Answer Right, because then she probably would have probably seen the inmate and in distress or something like that. Question and do you know anything about when Epstein actually died versus when he was found? Answer no. Question okay. Answer. I heard it was hours before. Question okay, where the shoe staff are located on the map that you just drew, could they see into Epstein's cell from there? Answer no, but you could see, like, if the lights was on, you know, so if I'm standing down by the officer station, I could look up on the tier and I could look down, and if the lights are on, I could definitely see if the light was on in the cell or not. Question about how big are the windows of the doors? Answer I would say they're probably like this. Question about that. 24 inches by, like, 10 inches. Answer yeah, question or something. Answer Something like that. Question okay, they're always open. Answer yes. Question there's nothing that covers them. Answer we do have the ability to close, like, when we have an incident on the tier. We have an unresponsive inmate, we're giving medical, you know, if we're doing anything that deals with the inmate specifically, we'll block those other observation windows off so the inmates can't see. Question now, when the staff are doing an overnight, the early morning watch from 0 from 12am and through 8am Are they allowed to sleep? Answer no, you can't sleep. Question so if the shoe. If they're in the shoe, can one sleep while the other stays awake? Answer no. Question. So no one's allowed to sleep? Answer no. Question. Have you heard that they were sleeping this shift? Answer I heard that. And what camera footage I saw, I could physically observe them sleeping. Question so did you see them both sleeping? Yeah. Question so you did actually review the video I saw. I did see that video. Question okay, you did. And you saw both of them asleep. Do you know about how long they were sleeping? I can't remember that. Question sure. And is that a big problem? That is a very big problem. Okay. Answer I mean, my thing is you, is that I understand that, you know, you worked overtime or you was mandated to work another time. When I was a correctional officer, guess what? I'll go get on the tier. I'll go do rounds. I would just stay walking in the unit. You know, it's nothing wrong to get on the Internet, but between the time you're on the Internet, you need to shut it off. And go do rounds if that's the way you stay awake at night or do your OIC duties, audit what they're told to do, audit the bed book, make sure all the 292s is done for the previous shift. You know, do all that stuff that's mandated on your watch as you're supposed to do, then do those functions that'll keep you awake. Question yeah. Answer if you're doing the work. Question do you know if either of these individuals in this instance, Noel or Thomas, were on mandatory overtime? Answer Noel was, I believe she was going from evening watch to morning watch, and I believe that Thomas came into work that as overtime. Question Now, Noel was mandatory overtime, though? Answer yeah, she was mandated. I think she was mandated because if you see here she was. Her shift was 4 to 12, right? And then if you see here as to Noel overtime. So if you go here, it's going to show. Go to shoe one. So basically if she, yeah, it says, yeah, if she was shoe one redacted, had hired her on 5 19. So it doesn't show if she was mandatory or whatever. Question so it could have been voluntary. Answer it could have been voluntary. Question okay. Okay, great. And the last thing I want to ask you about and then I'll turn it over to redacted. Here's an email that was sent out on 7:30 to 2019 from a redacted. Do you know who that is? Answer Redacted. That sounds, I think, redacted. Hold on. She works in psychology. Answer yeah, and it says Inmate Epstein, number 763-18-054, is being taken off psych observation and needs to be housed with an appropriate cellmate. Do you recall getting that at all? Answer so at 0730, inmate Epstein is going to be taken off of psychological and needs to be housed with an appropriate inmate. I probably did, yeah. Question now, can you flip over, you're going to see all like the lieutenants and everybody in there. If your lieutenants receive this. So do they have to click on like, do they have to. For me, I can say, like, do I want to send a response or not? Answer no, they, they have to click on it. Question, right? So if they don't click on it, they could still have read it. Answer question and it wouldn't say red response question or answer. You could have to click on it to read it. Question do you know what I'm saying? So like if I open an email, it gives me, it gives me an option in my email at least. Do you want to send a read response? Answer no, it's different. Like on mine, how, how I got mine set up, I could see the email message. You know you can do that, right? Like on mine, like when the emails come in, I can read what it is without actually clicking on it. So there's a ton of people on there that it doesn't say red. Right. Do you think that they actually didn't see the email or didn't actually read it? I mean, I believe it. So are a lot of BoP employees then not reading their emails? Answer yeah. Question so if it doesn't read on there, you believe that some of these lieutenants actually may not have seen the email? Answer Question okay, that's fair enough. Answer and that's fair because I know if you look at mine, like I can actually monitor emails. So you don't know if I read if I seen it. Question well, that's kind of my point is that like you can read it without actually it showing that it was red. Answer Yes, I can do that. Question so that's what I'm saying. So in this case, do you think that just because it says gets cut off by the captain. Yeah, because like redacted Reddit. Redacted Reddit, Redacted Reddit, shoe staff, the AW Reddit. I'm just looking at all of the lieutenants. Lieutenant redacted Reddit, the warden Reddit, indiscernible Reddit. So yeah, there were a few lieutenants that actually read it. Question okay, but just because it says that they didn't read it doesn't mean they necessarily like you. They could have had something. Gets cut off by the captain. Right. Picks back up where he left off. The investigator set up where it doesn't even show that they read it. Answer Right. Question all right, before I turn it over, can you just, just so we know that the documents can you just initial and date the top of each of these sets of documents that I gave you? Answer yeah, right here. Question yeah, just all on top. Yep. Just your initial and date. Answer I'm sorry, you know, it's taken all day. Question no, we really, it's super helpful. There's a lot of stuff that you told us that we didn't know about, so. Answer I was surprised you didn't know about him being in the wrong cell. Answer yeah, no, that. Did you know anything about that talking to the other investigator? The other investigator answers no. His partner responds, but again, that's an administrative error as opposed to any kind of suspicious related to his death. Right? Answer Right. Question. And then just the duty agent rosters or schedules. Thank you, sir. Answer. You're welcome. Now we have the next officer asking some follow up questions. Question. Just a couple of follow up questions. Was Epstein given special privileges, anything like that? Answer. No, I don't believe so. Question. You mentioned that he was meeting with his attorney seven days a week and was that allowed for any other inmate? Answer. I mean, all the inmates are afforded that because while they're pre trial inmates, they have that right to seek legal counsel. Question. Okay, answer. So it's up to the legal counsel when they want to go see him. If they don't want to go see him every 90 days, that's, you know, but his legal counsel came quite often. Question. Okay, the phone call, the instruction that you gave. Redacted. You told them that had to. Epstein had to make a phone call and record it. Now, if Epstein mentioned that he wants to make the phone call to a certain person, and if redacted, dial that number, is he supposed to identify that that's the person who answered the phone? Answer. Yeah, like I told you before, that's part of the process. So that's like if I call you and you say, well, I'm so and so and I'm his attorney. Okay, fine. Question. Now, if that person wasn't the person who answered the phone, what was redacted, supposed to do? Answer. Then he was supposed to not give. Give and allow him to. Like if he was trying to call a male and a female answered the phone, if that meant is so and so available. No, then he wouldn't have gotten been able to speak to the female person that answered the phone. Question. According to the records, I think Epstein mentioned he wanted to speak to his mother. Okay. I don't know, is there like a list that they need to go by or just Epstein will provide the number and that was it. Answer. Basically, the inmates are supposed to supply certain people. They're supposed to call. So like on their phone list, there are certain people that we vet that the inmate can call. So normally it's like over in a religious person, your immediate family members, girlfriend, a wife, a spouse, children, stuff like that, pastor, whatever. But then legally, if your legal contact or your attorney, it's different. You know, you can, that's, that's a totally different type of call. Outside of what inmates get. Like if they pick up the commissary phone and try to call, it's only going to allow them to call those numbers off of the phone list. Question. Okay, answer. You know what I'm saying the proof form is the green form, but over here they say, well, I need to speak to my attorney. Okay, I'll give you the attorney call. But if that was the case, he could have been afforded or. Or given if he was calling his mother, if he had time on the books because he went back to his cell prior, I think the cell. The shoe. The cell the phone's in shoe cut off at 9pm I'm not certain. I can't remember. He could have called his mother at that time and we wouldn't have had to facilitate the call. He could have called her right from the thing. Question. So I just want to should redacted have checked that list before he made the phone call. Answer. Yeah. Question. Okay, and the last question is if the order came from psych, right? It was just a question. If the order came from psych that Epstein needed a cellmate, should they have come down to the unit and made sure that someone else knew about it, the requirement? Answer. No. Well, what do you mean? Question. Let's say psych. That email came out saying that Epstein's required a cellmate. Answer. Okay, so what would have happened is if he would have been released because she would put that out. So if the inmate was being released from suicide watch prior for him being released from suicide watch, that would have went to the executive staff, that would have went to the shoe oic, the operations lieutenant to inform him that he needs before he places him in shoe, he needs to have an appropriate cellmate. Not a vetted one, just someone because of what the shoe policy says that an inmate must have a cellmate, but it doesn't say a vetted cellmate. It doesn't say all these protocols. But with her, that's a general statement that would be made for any suicide watch inmate coming off suicide watch. Question. Oh, so she sent that email. Answer. That's it. If you pull up any other email dealing with an email coming from suicide watch back to shoe, then that would be for any inmate. But however, with him, you couldn't necessarily do that because he would have to have a vetted cellmate. He would have to have somebody appropriate for him, not just any cell that was open single occupancy. Then you could have put him in there. But no, he had to be vetted before he could be in with anybody. Question. That's all I have another question by an investigator. Is there anything we're missing and anything we didn't cover? That's it. Question. Let me see this form right here. Yeah. We covered that. All right. So yeah, if there's nothing else on your end, then we'll just wrap it up. Answer. Okay. Question and there's again, there's nothing that you discuss with the FBI or the OIG previous that we didn't cover on this? Answer no, that's pretty much everything. Question that's it. Perfect. It sounds like you were with redacted. Was there anything else that she didn't do that she should have done aside from that round? Answer. I mean, with redacted. I believe that it was the issue with the log. I think it was a log issue that we had talked about. And when I pulled up the initial log, after I got there, when I pulled up the lieutenant's log, it appeared that it was two different logs in the system. And within 45 minutes, one log disappeared out of the system. And then I, I see her leaving at about 9:15am out of the building. I don't know where she was in the building, but at 9:15am she comes walking out of the building. And I reported that to OIG when I talked to them, I talked to them about the log being he gets cut off. And what was the log? Answer the daily log. Question the daily log. Answer the daily log, Lieutenant's log. So there was two different logs. And then one of the logs wasn't right. And then when I went back, it had been deleted. And then I see her leaving out of the building at 9:15am Question. Okay, answer on that Saturday morning. Question. And when should she have left? Answer she should have left at 6. Why was she in the building for another three plus hours? And I brought that up to the investigators, to the OIG investigator. Can I see the timeline? Question do you have any reason to believe. Obviously there looks like there was some people that dropped the ball here. There's some, like we talked about, job performance failure, security failure. Do you have any reason to believe that there is anybody that harmed Epstein? No. Question. So do you believe that he took his own life? I believe he took his own life. Question. Okay, I don't believe any of the staff did any harm to him. No, I don't. Okay. And then as far as going back to redacted and his logbook, when you saw that there was two, it looks like duplicates. Did you see what the discrepancies were when you noticed that there were two of them for the daily log? Answer. Right, because I'm going to tell you how I found out. So when I went into Truscope, I found. I told you That I was looking for the rounds because I was bouncing the log off of what the round was. Because all of this stuff is going into evidence. So I'm hurrying, I'm trying to gather this stuff. So the log, I'm trying to compare it to the rounds, it's not jiving. So I'm reading the log and the log is totally just not jiving the whole thing. The times, the frames, not jiving. So then all of a sudden when I'm printing out the paperwork from Truscope, I. I go back and I look at the log. Boom, another log pops up. So I'm reading this one and then the other log that was there before is deleted. Question. And she has the ability to do that? Yeah. Question. Would the system reflect that she made changes? No. It's not like. It's not like the roster. The roster is not going to tell you. You know, the roster will tell you who goes in there and manipulates the roster. But not that. But like I said, then when I'm in passing because I'm in the lieutenant's office and I see a cross, I look out because, you know, the alpha door, the door that leads out, she's walking. They let her out through control center at 9:15. I'm like, where she been all this time? Question and did you ever talk with her? Answer, I needed to talk with her. Question, did you ever question her about that? Answer. No question, no answer. I let OIG deal with it because once the file came up missing, she didn't report doing rounds. The log was duplicated. I said, something's going on here. I let redacted know that. I told the warden, I told oig that was part of my, you know, why it's not in there. I talked about the log question and was that gets cut off by the captain. I talked about her leaving the institution at 9:15. And is that with the FBI present? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And at 9:15pm she left between the hours approximately 9:10 and 9:15am Just so we have a note in here that says the shoe count was corrected by the lieutenant. Log completed by Lt. Redacted at the midnight time. The midnight count where she corrected it from 73 to 72. Do you recall reading that answer? Like I said, it was all kind of discrepancies, all kinds of discrepancies on that log. So I'm just trying to gather everything so I could bring it before the warden to let him know what was going on before we put it in.583 question. That's what we talked about. Answer yeah. Question we already talked about that, though. Answer do you understand what I'm saying? Answer like, what he's talking about is after these and I actually cut that out, so they're there. Question so, no, but he's mentioning, from my understanding, you're saying that the log afterwards or throughout the night. Answer When I was reviewing the log from that night from 8, 9 to 8 10. Question the morning watch log for 8 10. Because it starts off with this one, and then it follows like this. It was totally bad. It was messed up. It showed it was a bad log. And then by the time I was being able to print that log, that log had changed and then another one was there. That's why I reported it. I don't know why it's not. I reported it to the oig. Question okay, so it was a log, overnight log that got changed. Answer yes. Question all right. Question all right, we'll have to follow up with that, but all right. Anything else? Answer no, that's it, man. Question thank you. That was very, very helpful. Thank you so much for your time. It's currently 2:07pm on Tuesday, June 15, 2021. This is Senior Special Agent redacted with the DOJ OIG, and I'm turning off the recorder. All right, folks, so that does it for the Captain's deposition at mcc. And the next deposition we're going to take a look at is from Mr. Darden, another employee of MCC that was questioned in the aftermath of Epstein's death. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.