← The Epstein Chronicles
The Epstein Chronicles
Inside The OIG Interview: The Testimony Of An Unnamed MCC Lieutenant (Part 15) (5/6/26)
00:14:30
The deposition of the unnamed MCC lieutenant reveals not just operational failures, but a striking level of evasiveness that runs throughout the testimony. When pressed on critical details—staffing levels, required inmate checks, chain of command...
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Boss, what's the most dreaded question that you can get when you tell people you host a podcast called the Lapsed Fan?
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Ugh.
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What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right back into the interview given by the unnamed lieutenant from MCC to the investigators from the oig. Question okay, fair enough. Do you know why Epstein was in prison? Answer yeah. Question why? Answer. Underage trafficking, child molestation charges, like that? Question and did you have any specific feelings regarding why he was in prison? Answer no. Question how often would you speak with Epstein? Answer Whenever I needed to. Question all right. And kind of conversation that had any substance to it, like substantive conversation, anything about what was like more than just like below? Answer Nah. Question no. And, and you said you did not work at all on August 10th? Answer that's the day it happened, right? Question yeah. Answer I wasn't there. Question and then you were definitively gone by then from MCC by 4:00pm on August 9th? I think so. Yeah, I think so. So you may have been gone as early as 2pm you just can't recall? Yeah. Question when was your next shift? Answer that happened on what? Saturday? Question yeah, he was found on a Saturday. Answer he died on Saturday. Right? Question yeah. Answer Saturday. I don't know if I came in on Sunday. I think I came in on Sunday. Question okay, and did you at the time, did you speak with anybody about Epstein's death? Answer I mean, I knew about it. Everyone was talking about it. Question yeah, so what was your understanding about how he died young himself? Question do you know anything about anyone else taking his life? No. Question no. Do you Know anything about anyone assisting with taking his life? No. Question. No. Do you believe that Epstein took his own life? Yeah. Question. Do you believe that Epstein acted alone in taking his own life? Yes. Question. All right, then there's only three more questions here. They are more open ended. What do you believe would have prevented Epstein from dying? Nothing. Question. Nothing. Do you think that if he was or wanted to take his life, he would have done it? If it was a regular inmate, I don't even think he would have. You know, what are some of the systematic problems inside the MCC and specifically the shoe that allowed for Epstein to die? Answer. Systematic problems? Question. You know, like he gets cut off by the lieutenant. It sounds like a union question or something like that. Question. Well, no, because like I told you, we're trying to look into like, hey man, you're right. Question. If another inmate died, we're probably not going to be here talking to you. But this is high profile. We now need to know and figure out what. What went wrong here? How do we fix it? So in your opinion, what went wrong here? Answer. I mean, question. And how do we fix it? We're from the government. We're here to help. Answer. Yeah, my opinion, the whole cellmate leaving, that's not on nobody. I'm not. If I have the notice he had up until that time and left for one day, then this happens. I can't blame lieutenant staff notifications, you know, remember there's like 900 inmates in there. Question. Right. Answer. I know he's high profile, but we also have to monitor other inmates. The round situation, if that's true, that could have been a little bit, you know, you've got to make the rounds and chew. Question. Counts too though, right? Answer. You've got to make rounds and counts. Question. Now, going back to there, you say it's not on anybody, but if he. Psychology is saying he. He's required to have a cellmate. It's got to be on somebody, right? If he's on the hot list, he's in the shoe where he's supposed to have a cellmate anyway? And psychology is saying he's got to have a cellmate. It's got to fall on somebody to make sure. Hey, who's supposed to make sure that this guy's got a cellmate? His cellmate is gone, he doesn't have a cellmate. Answer. So if I know, if I get the notice by 8, right? So I'm evening ops watch. I get the notice. Hey, this guy doesn't have a cellmate, all right? What's my call? I just throw him in there with anybody. Question. My thought and from talking to other people are supposed to be that SHU staff should have notified the ops lieutenant or the activities lieutenant who then should have notified the captain. Answer. Yeah, at 8 I could see that, but at the time on day watch. Yeah. Answer. It's a judgment call. Question. And I'm not Talking about at 8am I'm saying like what you just said. Answer. I want to say that we can't indiscernible notice. Question. You don't think that the cellmate thing should be on anybody? Well, but it's like it's got to be on somebody. If he's required to have a cellmate, somebody's got to make sure that he's got a cellmate. Answer. Yeah, but what if I don't remember? These guys don't even the guys on evening watch wasn't even sure it was right. It was overtime. I know. Redacted. He gets cut off by the investigator. Well, no, I'm not talking about. I'm talking about it was redacted. Answer. But if I'm the oic. Question. I think redacted. And Noel Answer. He wasn't even in custody at the time. No more. Question. All right, so but you got Tova Noel who that's her quarterly post. Answer. Well, she did a double that day. Right? Question. Well, she. But yeah, but at 8pm that was her first shift. Right? Answer yeah. Question. So we're talking, we're talking now not talking about morning watch. We're talking about. You're saying 8pm Right? Answer yeah, so that's evening watch. So we're looking at. We are looking at. He gets cut off by the lieutenant. So if I know, if I'm notified by 8 and I call the captain, say, hey, this guy don't. What's my next move then? Throw him in with anybody. I mean, I can see them saying whoever said that because they say, hey, kick it up. Question. Right. Answer. You know, kick it up. Kick the blame up top. Now, if I'm on, what do you want me to do, throw the guy in there with anybody just because he has to have a cellmate? Answer. Well, some people have said that at the very least they would have put him on like a dry cell type of situation where you've got a staff member on him until he can get placed with a cellmate. Answer. Yeah, but that's a questionable move too. You want me to take them and put them on, you know. Question. So you believe So I guess that's your belief then. Answer. I mean, there was a time and opportunity. Guy wanted to take his life. The inmate left. He saw the time and opportunity and he did it. The officer is, you know. Question. But you don't believe, though, as a correctional officer, it's a responsibility to ensure we ensure that they don't die while in our custody? Answer. Well, that's what the rounds are for. That's why it's so important. Question. All right, so that's why you think it's really the rounds and the counts, but not necessarily the cellmate, but the rounds and the counts. Answer. Well, in the shoe, you're required to do it. You have to do it. It's for the inmate. Question. And if they're not doing the rounds, the 30 minute rounds, that's really the blame here. Answer. That's a bad situation. It's a bad situation. Question. So you blame it on the rounds way more than you would blame it on the cellmate? Answer. That's it. The cellmate, he ain't there. Question yeah. Answer. You know, I mean, that happened. It's the same thing. I understand they sent out the notification. There's no time frame on it is an inmate goes, hey, you know, by the way, this guy was on. You sent this out a month ago. He's not suicidal no more. He said it. It's like, you know. Question. Well, in this case, I think it was like nine days. Answer. Yeah, but there's still no time frame. Some guys say they suicidal just to get out of shoe and play the game, go back in. But it's never saying, hey, this guy is not. There's no memo saying, does not need a cellmate. Question. Would you agree though, that it's both the fact that he was required to have a cellmate and that they weren't conducting the rounds? Answer. Yeah. Question and that's where, when I talk about the problems, he gets cut off by the lieutenant. The thing is, that happened, but it's like that. That can happen. Hey, oh, his bunky left. I didn't put a cellmate. That can happen. You know, that can happen Here you get inmates that was crying on level two, hey, got to have a cellmate. You moved him. Yeah. Oh, you ain't check. Oh, you know. Question. Yeah, so I think that what I understand you saying is that the primary issue is not doing rounds. Secondary and the much lesser issue was that they didn't fill up his cellmate. Is that correct? Answer. Yeah. Question. Okay. And are there any other problems or Violations occurring inside the MCC that we should be made aware of. Answer, huh? Question. We're talking about the mcc. Answer. Violations. Question. Anything that we should have known about that you think needs fixed? Answer. You got a mandated lot. I know that you're working. Question. So there is what you're saying there then, that they're severely understaffed? Answer. They was. I don't know how it is now, but they was. Question and again, when did you leave there? Answer December of 19. Question December of 19, at that point, were they extremely understaffed? Answer Extremely. Question what about was there anything that was being fixed ever since. When Epstein died on August of 2019, did you see anything being fixed at that point? Answer. They changed the log. I know that. Question what does that mean? Answer. They started putting inmates that go to court just in case we started doing them and started attaching the PP38 to the log. Question. So they would almost be part of the outcount. Answer no. You could see. You could see all the movement. Question okay. Answer. You know, you could see all the movement. They started single cell memos. Every time I need to know every night, because I work the morning every night, hey, who's up there? Single cell. That was my every night thing. We started that more rounds, more reiteration of doing your rounds. I know the rounds, they got tighter with the rounds, the log. It was some things. There were some things. As far as staff, I think they did hire a class, like, right before, you know. Question now, has that just been a constant problem with the McCarthy, with being, like, able to fill. He gets cut off by the lieutenant. Yeah, that's been a problem for a while. It wasn't like that when I first got there, though. Question and what is why do you think that it was so hard to keep staff placed? Answer well, I think they can't compete. It's the pay. They're not competing with other agencies. It's a tough job. Working there is tough. Question yeah. Answer it's not easy, I'll tell you that. What makes it so tough? You've got some unruly inmates. Question yeah. You got a lot of unruly inmates and you're doing some long hours. Question Are they doing long hours because it's understaffed? Answer yeah. Question and that's what I mean. So it sounds to me, I mean, an outsider's perspective is that they need a lot more employees. Answer no, they need that. Definitely more employees. Question Is there a way for us to not only get employees but get good employees? What would be the solution here. Answer I mean, you got to recruit, you got to take people that really want to do the job. Question he gets cut off by the lieutenant. I mean, it takes some people that, you know, say, hey, you can make this your first year. Just going to put some work in. You've got people that want it, you know, they want the money. Question. You think it means that they should have like a higher pay at the mcc? Answer Higher pay or you look for people that are looking for opportunity, you know? Question like as in make it like a rotating place. You have to do certain amount of time there and then you can go to like your choice location. What do you mean by opportunity? I guess I should say. Answer like, I don't know. I know. I think it's a college requirement or credit, something like that. Is it? I don't know. I'm not sure. We've definitely talked to people that don't have bachelor's degrees. Answer yeah, but I think they have some credits. I think they change it for credits. Question yeah, Some people have said some college. Answer yeah. Question that we've talked to that they don't have. I don't think I've talked to anybody that said they didn't have college. But I mean, I think it was like a couple credits, you know. Answer yeah, but I mean, some people without college, it's one opportunity to say, hey, you can make 60 GS your first year. I just need you to show up and work, follow the rules, you know. And the credit check, I think was getting a lot of people. Question Is that right? Answer yeah, credit checks, I think that weeds out a lot of people. Question now do you believe, though, on that note, if we're doing credit checks, we're letting that slide, wouldn't that breed potential problems with introduction of contraband and being paid, you know, for bribing, bribing and bringing things in? Answer Bribery and stuff. Question yeah, because that's a big problem in the BoP. Answer yeah, but I don't think that. I mean, you've got some people in there, I mean, that don't work, that don't know. You could be. I've seen people get arrested with good credit, six figures, making six figures and do some corrupt stuff. So that's not it. Question okay. Answer I'm not saying take everyone, but you know, it's like if you're renting to somebody and you a landlord and you say, all right, I know you ain't got the top score, but I see you pay your bills on time you had a little student loan debt here or whatever. I'll give you a shot. Question. Yeah, answer, you know. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here. And in the next episode, dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.