← The Epstein Chronicles
The Epstein Chronicles
Kathy Ruemmler And Her Epstein Related Transcript From Her Trip To Congress (Part 6) (8/4/26)
00:14:21
Kathy Ruemmler told congressional investigators that she regretted associating with Jeffrey Epstein but maintained that she did not know he was continuing to abuse girls and young women after his 2008 conviction. The former Obama White House counsel...
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Narrator/Host
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Narrator/Host
What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking up where we left off with the Kathy Rumler conversation with Congress question. All right, let's introduce Minority exhibit D Bates number EFTA A023-95303. This is a June 2016 email exchange between you and Mr. Epstein regarding a possible opportunity for you when with a hedge fund called Citadel. In this exchange, Mr. Epstein suggested that Citadel CEO Ken Griffin might just be interested in a woman. You responded. Oh, Jesus. Meaning you are going to trade one of your Russians for my comp. What did you mean by one of your Russians? I think I'm looking at a different email exchange, Ms. Cotton. Yeah, I think you skipped some lines or we have the wrong version. Ms. Rumler, we have a different version of the email. Redacted. Let's go off record for a second. Back on record now, what did you mean by, quote, one of your Russians? Mr. Fishman, again, do you mind if she reads the entire chain question? Absolutely. Okay. The context of this is that I received outreach from the soon to be retiring chief legal officer of Citadel about whether I'd be willing to take a meeting or about potentially accepting that job. I didn't know anything about Citadel, frankly. You know, I'd spent the vast majority of my career in public service at this point, and I certainly wasn't at this point in time. I certainly wasn't like a Wall street person. And so Epstein was The finance guy. He was like the Wall street guy. So I asked him, you know, what do you. I asked him. I infer from this email over the phone, what do you know about Citadel? And again, in typical Epstein fashion, he. He immediately jumps into, I can negotiate your compensation. So I didn't ask him. I didn't have an offer from Citadel. And he's already talking about how he's going to negotiate my compensation. That's clear. He's jumping into the talks about helping you hypothetically get this job at Citadel and negotiating your compensation. No, no, he's not. No, no, no. Why did you say one of your Russians, Mr. Fishman? I'm sorry? What do you mean by one of your Russians? Fishman jumps in again. She's giving an answer, and you then made a statement about what was in the emails. She's entitled to answer, to respond. Well, let's just ask the question. What did you mean when you wrote one of your Russians? Again, he wasn't. I wasn't asking him to help me get a job. Okay? I was asking him what. What he knew about the firm. He then immediately jumps into what? That he can negotiate a compensation package which I haven't even been offered. And so I then deflect and say, trust me, this is way below his and your pay grade to be negotiating. And so he then says, there is the off chance that Griffin might just be interested in a woman. I understand him to be referring that he was interested in a woman for the position of chief legal officer. I found that offensive. So I make, again, a casual, somewhat irreverent remark by saying, I ain't no affirmative action. So I found it frankly insulting that someone would suggest that I was being offered a job purely because I was a woman. So then he writes back and says, I meant romantically. So I think. I think that he's suggesting that somehow this person wants to date me. And so again, which is also offensive, by the way.
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Bluff
So.
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Narrator/Host
So again, I deflect and say, so you're going to trade one of your Russians, meaning one of your adult Russian assistants who you're going to set up on a date. This. This has nothing to do with sex. This has. This is a confused back and forth where, again, he was insinuating himself into a way that he was going to make himself relevant about negotiating compensation for a job offer that I didn't have, and I wasn't going to take questions. So you were just saying that you were making a joke and an offhand joke about Mr. Epstein trading one of his Russian assistants to Ken Griffin in exchange for your conversate or your compensation. Answer. Yeah. Question. Okay. Answer. And as I said, I regret emailing him. This is a joke that certainly doesn't land very well today. Question. All right, we're going to cover some ground that the majority covered. The way that these formats go, sometimes our questions overlap. We'll be conscious of that. Okay, let's go back to that arrest and the phone call. Okay. Okay. Jeffrey Epstein called three people. Answer. Yes. Question. Two of his lawyers. Answer yes. Question. And you. Answer yes. Question why do you think he called you? I think he called me because, not to be modest, but I was the chairperson of the defense and investigations practice and one of the largest, most profitable law firms in the world. I was well regarded as a defense attorney, and I think that's why he called me. And obviously I knew him. Question. Earlier that year, you had written you, quote, I only trust you later then that he said, quote, I only trust your advice. Mr. Fishman. I'm sorry, are you reading from the documents? Redacted. We'll introduce those documents right now as, as exhibit E. Those documents are Bates number EFTA 026-34222 and EFTA 026-34758. Mr. Fishman. We just have one of them so far redacted front and back. Oh, I see. Fishman. Okay. There are two different documents as one exhibit. Fishman. Oh, okay. So they're not connected to. To each other in that way. Okay. Question. So Jeffrey Epstein called you because he trusted you, Is that what you're saying? I don't know whether he trusted me or not, but I can say, I can tell you I think I'm a good lawyer who gives pretty straightforward advice. Question. Just so I'm clear, did you give him any advice on that call after he was arrested? No. Question did he ask for your help? Answer again, I. I don't remember much about that call other than it was extremely short. He told me that he'd been arrested, and I said, either you have to call your lawyer or I assume you called your lawyer. Something I don't recall whether, you know, he said that he had already or he hadn't, you know, this or that. Question. Before Mr. Epstein was arrested, had he communicated with you about being concerned about new criminal charges being brought against him? Answer no. Question not at all. Answer he had not. Question. Mr. Epstein was arrested at Teterboro Airport. He'd flown back from Paris on a private jet. Had you known he was aboard? Answer. I don't remember whether I knew. I do remember. I do remember knowing that his arrest happened at Teterboro Airport. I don't know whether he told me that or whether I I came to learn that later. Question and before he returned from Paris, did he ask you your advice about whether it was safe to come Back to the U.S. answer no. Question in 2019, did he ever ask your advice about whether it was safe to travel to any foreign country? Answer no, he didn't ask my advice on those things. Question he never asked about your advice on whether it was safe to return to the US at any point in 2019? Answer not that I remember. Question let's do Exhibit F. This is February 23rd, 2019. Email between you and Mr. Epstein. Mr. Epstein writes you like preparing for a hurricane. I'm focused on how to protect myself, hunkered down but vigilant, well prepared, etc. I very much appreciate our friendship. In response, you wrote me we will get you through this storm. Yes. What was the storm you told him you were going to get him through? That was a reference to the media storm. Question the media what's going on everyone?
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Spin Quest is a free to play social casino, void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. Two days before that, a court ruling had put his 2007 non prosecution agreement in jeopardy in a case brought by a number of his victims asserting their rights under the cvra, the Crimes Victims Act. You don't think this email had any reference to that? Answer I don't remember whether. I was certainly aware of that litigation in Florida and I was aware of the legal issues that were presented to the court in that case. Yes. I don't know, but this my best recollection is that this related to a media storm. Question and who did you mean when you wrote we when you wrote we will get you through the storm? Answer I tend to use the term we in all sorts of different contexts. So I think I was my effort to express, you know, some empathy and support to him at the time, as I stated earlier, what I understood all through the period of time when I was interacting with him up until the time that the indictment was Returned In July of 2019, I understood that his conduct was predated my knowing him by at least a decade and had been extensively investigated by state and federal prosecutors and had been finally resolved. And so in our system of justice, typically when someone resolves a criminal case through a guilty plea and, or in this case, a separate agreement with the federal government and they comply with it, and they otherwise fulfill all the obligations, they accept responsibility and they are entitled to reenter society. That's the way it works. And so that's what I believe the situation was with Mr. Epstein for the entirety of the time that I was dealing with him again, up until he was indicted in July of 2019, and then the conduct described in that indictment, he, even though it predated me knowing him by 10 years, described conduct that was very different than I had understood him to have been involved in. Question. So back to the email. You said you understood the storm to be referring to negative media. That's right. Question. Had you been working with anyone else to help Mr. Epstein deal with the negative media? Answer. Mr. Epstein's MO was to ask a lot of different people for their opinions on things. That is very evident from the emails. But what about, were you working with anyone to help Mr. Epstein deal with negative media? Do you mean like communication specialist or someone like that? I'm not sure what you mean. You knew Mr. Epstein much better than the rest of us. You knew what you were doing and who you were talking with much better than the rest of us. So were you working with anyone to help Mr. Epstein with his negative media? He asked my opinion about media, about, you know, media inquiries, media issues from time to time. And he was represented by counsel, and the counsel was his legal advisor. Ultimately, any decisions that were made about responses to media inquiries, etcetera, were going to be decided by his lawyer, not by me. But as he did with lots of people, he asked my point of view and my opinion on stuff all the time, including relating to these media issues. And with that, we'll pause question, and I believe some other members have questions. Ms. Ansari. Sure. Thank you so much for being here today. As has been discussed through the both hours so far, you maintained a friendship with Epstein for years. What do you think your biggest mistake in maintaining that relationship and staying so close to a known predator? And why did you not cut ties with him sooner, Ms. Rumler? I know him professionally and I was friendly with him in that context. We were not. We were not social friends. I didn't socialize with them. I didn't travel with them. I didn't go on vacation with them. I didn't go to concerts with them. I didn't go out to dinner with them. So when you say I had a long standing friendship, I would characterize it a bit differently. Those are the types of things that I do with my friends. Mr. Epstein and I shared a client, and so I had a lot of interaction with them relating to that. And of course, the interaction and just a natural, you know, course of life went into other topics, including topics relating to his historical conviction and media attention arising from that historical conviction. At the time when I was interacting with him, he had a broad set of relationships with many prominent people in the business community, in academia and, you know, the arts and entertainment and politics. And it was very natural for me to maintain good interaction with him, given what I was doing professionally at the time. And again, importantly, as he was, you know, a primary advisor to a client that had been referred to me in the very, you know, just few weeks after I had, you know, gone back into private practice to restart my private practice. And so, of course, was someone who I wanted to maintain a good relationship with, Ms. Ansari. Okay, but even at the time, he was a known predator. You knew that. You knew of his record, Obviously, ultimately, we know that Epstein and Maxwell, who I heard you say used to, you didn't know personally, committed systemic abuse against more than 1,000 young girls as well as boys and men, I guess. How do you begin to express remorse for cultivating those ties, even if they were strictly professional and not a per personal relationship, as you just laid out, miss Rumler? Well, I certainly didn't again, know what we know now about the nature and scope of his conduct. That's the first and foremost. But it's very important to understand that, you know, as a lawyer in private practice, in my area of expertise, my primary area of expertise was representing people who were either accused of crimes or accused of other wrongdoing. So that was. That was very much part or sort of, you know, my daily existence, if you will. I certainly feel terrible for anybody who this man victimized. Ms. Ansari, have you ever met with any of the victims or survivors? I have not. Ms. Ansari, is there a reason not to? Ms. I have not been asked to, Ms. Ansari. Okay, question. And as I said before, he lied to me. He lied to me about his conduct. He lied to me. He led me to believe. And again, it wasn't just that I believed him, what he said, you know, on its face, but what he said again was all very consistent with the way the investigation in Florida by both state and federal authorities and had been resolved. Ms. Ansari, thank you. All right, we're going to wrap up right here and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.
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