← The Epstein Chronicles
The Epstein Chronicles
Kathy Ruemmler And Her Epstein Related Transcript From Her Trip To Congress (Part 7) (8/4/26)
00:15:19
Kathy Ruemmler told congressional investigators that she regretted associating with Jeffrey Epstein but maintained that she did not know he was continuing to abuse girls and young women after his 2008 conviction. The former Obama White House counsel...
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Kathy Rumler
What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna dive right back in to the Kathy Runler transcript from her trip to Congress. Mr. Submaranium, I may have missed this, but were you ever. Jeffrey Epstein was never a legal client of yours in any way, Ms. Ruler? He was not. Question so you never had any kind of agreement with them or an engagement? Answer I did not. Question did you ever receive any compensation from them? Answer no. Question did you ever receive any cash from them or any transfer money transfer from them? Just gifts? Answer yeah, I did receive gifts from them, but I did not receive compensation. Question but not any money from them. And then did you ever, if you weren't representing them, but did you ever attend any of his court proceedings? Answer as we discussed, I was present, you know, as a member of the public at his arraignment in July of 2019. Question thank you, and apologies if this has already been asked, but the reason for that was because of your friendship or was there a reason for you attending that? Answer the reason was this is someone that I had dealt with over, you know, the prior period. I mean, the prior, you know, five year period. And he was. He was and remained at the time, well, up until that time, a primary advisor for an important client of mine. And I wanted to understand. Exactly, you know, I wanted to understand what was going on and what he was charged with and what the conduct was. And I anticipated that my client would also want to understand that. Question do you believe he ever used the relationship you had with him? You know, it's not a friendship, I guess, a business relationship, perhaps, when reaching out to other people, we've heard from other folks that he would use a name. Name drop, essentially. Do you feel that that happened to you? Answer I didn't know that at the time, but I know now because I've seen, you know, references and documents that have been released where he name drops me, but I didn't know he was doing it at the time. Question and I apologize if this was already asked, but were you aware that you were designated as. As an executor of his estate? Answer I learned that later that I was listed as a backup executor. Question did you consent to that in any way? Answer I didn't know about it. Question okay, so there was never a conversation about this. Answer With Epstein. Question or anyone? Answer I don't remember having a conversation with Epstein about it. I was surprised when I saw the document when it was released last year. Question have you done anything with his estate? Gets cut off by Rummler. No association. Answer no. Question when was your name removed? Answer I don't know exactly, but it. That was in a draft. That was, you know, a draft document, and the final document does not. I'm not identified. Question when did you learn about your name being an executor? Rumor again, I believe the document was provided to this committee and then made public. I believe in 2025. Question do you have any sort of speculation as to why your name or you were named as an executor? Answer My only speculation is that I'm a lawyer and I think someone who believed to be an honest person. Question okay, that's all I have. Question Redacted. Did you ask to be taken off the will? Answer no. Mr. Menifee, asking questions now. Good afternoon. I was kind of struck by your statement here that you and Mr. Epstein only had a professional relationship. You know, since I've been sitting here, we've seen a number of emails in 2014 where he says to you, girl, careful, I will review an old habit in 2015 where you say to him, darling, I'm not one of your things. In 2016 where he says that Griffin may be interested in women and you say, I ain't no affirmative action. So that's an unprofessional way of having a conversation. He says, I meant romantically, and you reference Russians. And then it all culminates in 2019 when he says, I very much appreciate your friendship. So Your statement here today is that you all weren't friends? No, I didn't say that. I said I know him professionally and, and I say friendly in that context. But the foundation of my dealings with him were, was that I was a lawyer in private practice and that's why he dealt with me and that's why I dealt with him. And in that context, I was friendly with him. And I believe this effort to, or attempt to create a binary construct, you're either friends or you're a professional, is just not real life. And there are, you know, you probably, you're working with other members as a professional relationship, but you're probably friendly with him too. And that's the way it was with him. But again, I didn't have a number of personal friends who I spend time with on the weekends. We go out to dinner, we go to concerts, we might go on vacation, we might go to a spa together. And those are the people who I count as my friends. So I've tried to be as precise and descriptive as I can about really the nature of my interactions in dealing with them. Mr. Menifee. So more of a hybrid situation. I practiced at a large law firm too. I never called anybody darling in a communication. So this would be more of a hybrid situation where maybe not completely professional, maybe not completely personal. Answer. What I would say is I was friendly. You know, I knew him professionally, I was friendly with him. And you know, with respect, you may not like the words I used. And as I said before, I regret it that I even knew this guy, much less was emailing with him. But I tend to be a pretty casual person. I sometimes am a bit irreverent, I'm sometimes a bit sarcastic. And those references that you're pointing to are an example of that. Mr. Menifee, I'm introducing what's marked as minority Exhibit G. It begins with Bates number EFTA 026-10779. And we have copies that are being passed around now. Bottom of page one, going into page two. And this is an email from you dated December 16, 2018. The subject line is my edited version. Am I capturing that correctly? Answer yes. Question. So it looks like that you edited a draft written article written by Mr. Epstein's lawyer, Ken Starr. Is that this answer? I don't recall who drafted, who drafted this originally, but I was asked to look at it. But again, I believe this was something that was going to be provided in response to media. It was a media response and I was asked to look at it to either Provide my my thoughts. Question so EFTA 026-10779 reflects a statement from Mr. Epstein's benefit that you edited. Answer it was what I understand that was being contemplated here was that I don't remember the specifics but there were allegations in the media that Mr. Epstein had received the so called sweetheart deal in Florida arising, you know, from the federal and state prosecutions. And so this was contemplated by the media response that would be ultimately signed or authored by his attorney, of which who I was not. 1. Mr. Menifee. Question so can we look down at the bottom of page two, the last full paragraph. So the second to last paragraph on the page there, the second to last sentence starts with Jeffrey accepted full responsibility for his conduct. Do you see that? Answer I do. Question okay, the last sentence on the page for over 10 years, that being Mr. Epstein has lived a good and law abiding life. Do you see that? Answer I do. Question Turn the page, the final paragraph. We're looking at the third sentence. It begins with But Jeffrey an exemplary employer. Do you see that? Answer I do. Question so were you trying to change the public's perception of Mr. Epstein in this document? Answer no. Again, what this was was something that had been drafted by one of Mr. Epstein's lawyers to respond to suggestions in the media and at the time that Mr. Epstein had received the so called sweetheart deal in Florida. And that the reason, what I recall during this time is that the media implication or actually the media assertion was that the sweetheart deal was the result of something of undue influence or some type of corruption. And this was intended to be a response authored by his lawyers who were involved in that very resolution setting forth the facts as they understood it. And I was not involved in that investigation in any way, shape or form. And I was just asked to read it and give my thoughts for sort of tone and style.
- [09:54]
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- [10:18]
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- [10:25]
Kathy Rumler
Question but as you sent us back, did you believe at the time that Mr. Epstein had accepted full responsibility for his conduct and that he had lived a good and law abiding life in the preceding 10 years. Answer at the time, yeah, that's what I understood. Question do you believe that today Answer today we have a very different understanding. And again, what I know is what he indicated in July of 2019 and that those prosecutors had presented evidence to a grand jury. The allegations were not proven, but they certainly presented evidence to a grand jury and a grand jury agreed that there was evidence that he had intentionally enticed and recruited minors for, for commercial sex. That is a very different, very different set of allegations. And I understood he had that there was evidence of when he resolved his case in Florida. Question okay, Mr. Lynch, let's pick up right there. However, as you indicated earlier, you know of Mr. Epstein's offenses, he was a registered sex offender from those previous offenses. Ms. Rumler. That's right. Question by Mr. Lynch, which are very, very serious. One of the other aspects of this, again, focusing on your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein during the investigation, we find people who are very, very close to Jeffrey Epstein, friends, indeed, co workers who work several feet from him, yet when they come before the panel, they didn't know him. He was a stranger. And you know, reading all these emails, as my colleagues have already identified, you know, there are references to you calling them darlin, uncle Jeffrey, sweetie, and then which would indicate a much closer relationship and also you may call it humor. But dismissing his offenses by saying, referring to Jeffrey's type of massage, which refers back to his abuse of those younger women for which he was a registered sex offender. There's a connection there as well as when you sort of dismiss, you dismiss those offenses by joking about it. You, you know, joking about the Russians or your young things or victims rights my ass. Sort of dismissing the attorneys and the legal team who are trying to defend the accusers and the victims. Is that the way that you gained his trust? Answer I appreciate that question and I understand why, you know, sitting here today in 2026, the emails could come across as if there's a callousness to the victims. That's not what I intended at the time. And it wasn't my state of mind at the time. I feel terrible that he victimized women and girls and, you know, if I could have done anything, travel back in time, stop them from doing that, I would like to think I would have. And you know, he clearly lied to me. I think he lied to a lot of people. And as I said, I regret, you know, ever knowing him, much less, you know, emailing with them. But I think one of the things that's important to or I would ask you to at least try to understand from my perspective is that, you know, I had a very different understanding of the conduct at the time when I was joking or seemed to be joking. And I certainly never intended to be insensitive. Mr. Lynch, you knew he was a sex offender, though, a registered sex offender? Yes, I did. I did. Lynch, let's move on. Rumor again. As I said, I regret dealing with him, much less emailing with him. Mr. Lynch understood. So Leon Black, he's the former CEO of Apollo Global and a longtime friend of Mr. Epstein's. During his transcribed interview before this committee, he mentioned your name in a list of people he claimed to have met through Mr. Epstein. Do you believe that's accurate? Answer that he met me through Mr. Epstein? Question that he met he said during his he mentioned your name, a list of people that he claimed Mr. Black claimed to have met through Epstein. Answer yeah, Mr. Epstein did introduce me to Mr. Black. Question okay, when did you first meet Mr. Black? Answer I don't recall what year it was. Question Arrange between. Answer probably in the 2014, 2015 time frame. Question I see. What was the frequency of your interaction there between yourself and Epstein and Mr. Black? Answer I only recall meeting Mr. Black on two occasions. And what Mr. Epstein would typically do, as I said, he'd come to New York, where he didn't. He had a house, but it wasn't his residence. He'd come into New York and he would set up a bunch of meetings with people which he would hold in his dining room at a table, believe it or not, that's even bigger than this one. And so, for example, we're coming to a meeting at 2 o'. Clock. That was my scheduled time to meet with them. I would, you know, sit in the secretarial office space until such a time as Mr. Epstein, you know, was ready for the meeting with me and he would, you know, typically have the person who was coming into the meeting, in this example, me, at the same time that the person he was meeting before was exiting. And so in that context, that's where I met Mr. Black. Question okay, did Mr. Epstein ever talk to you about the nature of his dealings with Mr. Black? Answer I understood they had a business relationship, but I didn't know any more details than that. Question yeah, what in particular? Business? Answer no, I didn't under. I didn't understand the details of their business relationship. Question Were you ever aware of any abuse allegations against Mr. Black? Answer not that I can I know there has been some litigation subsequently meaning, you know, after Epstein, you know, died. In more recent years, there have been. Mr. Black has been involved in some civil litigation. I'm aware of that. Question what about affairs? Were you ever aware of Mr. Black being involved in any affairs? Answer I don't remember at the time. I know there have been allegations again in the media covering civil lawsuits or civil lawsuits that allege an affair. Question I see. And were you ever aware of Mr. Black requiring women to sign non disclosure agreements in connection with any of that litigation? Ms. Rumler I don't have any knowledge of that. Mr. Lynch. Okay. That's all I have. All right folks, we're going to wrap up right here and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.
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