Lesley Groff And The Transcript From Her Epstein Related Trip to Congress (Part 4) (7/4/26) - The Epstein Chronicles

Summary5 min read

Episode Summary: Lesley Groff And The Transcript From Her Epstein Related Trip to Congress (Part 4)

Podcast: The Epstein Chronicles
Host: Bobby Capucci
Episode Date: July 4, 2026

Overview

This episode continues the multi-part series delving into the Congressional transcript of Lesley Groff, a longtime assistant to Jeffrey Epstein. Host Bobby Capucci guides listeners through the details of Groff’s testimony before Congress, focusing on how Epstein's infamous massage directories (“black books”) functioned, who created and updated them, and what Groff’s responsibilities were in Epstein’s operation. The episode spotlights the day-to-day logistics behind Epstein's appointments, Groff’s lack of direct involvement with alleged abuse, and the committee’s efforts to probe how much Groff and others may have known.

1. Examination of Epstein’s Massage Directories (00:30–07:40)

Key Discussion Points:

Congress introduces Epstein’s various phone directories as evidence.
These directories, or “little black books,” contained lists of individuals (masseuses and others), phone numbers, and descriptive notes.
Groff identifies the directories as standard tools in Epstein’s office environment, existing before her employment there.

Notable Quotes:

Lesley Groff: “This looks like a little black book that was a directory that was kept, you know, in the office and at his homes.” (00:38)
Groff: “I believe it was Ms. Maxwell [who created the list].” (01:18)

Further Details:

Locations: Directories were present at all of Epstein’s residences and in the offices.
Maintenance: Groff did add new names–anyone Epstein met who required scheduling was added.
The original list predated her employment; she did not remove names, only added as instructed.
Updates were made via a computer system, from which directories could be printed.
Other staff, including Ghislaine Maxwell and various assistants or receptionists, could update these lists.

Timestamps:

00:37–01:45: Discussion on Groff’s first encounter with directories and who made them.
02:10–02:45: On updating, authority, and process of list maintenance.

2. Geographic and Functional Scope of the Lists (03:20–07:40)

Key Discussion Points:

Directories had region-specific lists: New York, Florida, New Mexico, Paris, UK, California.
Groff could not explain the rationale for these regional lists or their segmentations (“A” and “B” lists for NYC, etc.).
She had limited knowledge or recall of using most non-NYC lists.

Notable Quotes:

Groff: “It’s possible that I scheduled for Florida, but I don’t recall anything offhand. Nothing stands out.” (04:15)
Groff (on UK list): “I don’t know. I guess if he went to the UK…” (06:35)
She frequently indicated a lack of knowledge about who created regional lists prior to her time.

Memorable Moment:

On the existence of descriptions/annotations, e.g., “GM really likes,” Groff states: “I don’t even recall descriptors. I really did not use the directory. I used what was on the computer system. It was much faster.” (07:10)

3. Scheduling Logistics and Groff’s Role (09:14–13:50)

Key Discussion Points:

Scheduling was always directed by Epstein; Groff never chose masseuses herself.
She mostly interacted through appointment confirmations–never asked about age, background, or qualifications.
Groff and the committee revisit whether she ever scheduled appointments for other high-profile associates (she denies all).

Notable Quotes:

Groff: “He directed me on who to schedule, so... and usually it was a name and a phone number.” (02:50)
Groff (when asked if she scheduled massages for various powerful figures): “No.” (12:15–12:50)
Groff (on due diligence): “Did you ever ask for their age? Answer: No.” (13:10)
Groff: “I would just be given the directive.” (09:14)

List of Notable Individuals (all NO):

Frederick Fakai, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, Harvey Weinstein, Jess Staley, George Mitchell, Leon Black, Tom Pritzker, and others.
Exception: She recalls only scheduling one massage for Kathy Rumler at a spa, at Epstein’s direction, describing the relationship as "business."

4. Knowledge of and Involvement with Masseuses (12:53–13:58)

Key Discussion Points:

Groff never saw or met the masseuses in person.
She claims no knowledge of masseuses’ origins, qualifications, or whether they were high-school aged.
Denies ever witnessing or being told about abuse, and never participated in preparing massage spaces.

Notable Quotes:

Groff: “Were you aware that many of them were coming from local high schools at the time? Answer: No.” (13:37)
Groff: “About friends? I don’t recall seeing these ... descriptors. Yeah, I didn’t. I don’t recall seeing the descriptives or people talking about descriptives.” (07:30)

5. Office Logistics and Physical Presence (13:40–14:28)

Key Discussion Points:

Groff never visited Epstein's NYC residence or massage room before 2013, and had no involvement in their operation.
She did not greet visitors and was never present during massages.

Notable Quote:

Groff: “It was only after about 2013 that I ever stepped foot into the house.” (14:12)

6. Looking Ahead

Conclusion and Tease for Next Episode:

The hearing segment ends as Congressman Biggs prepares additional questioning, which the series will address in Part 5.

Key Takeaways:

Groff distances herself from many operational aspects, maintaining her involvement was logistical, not conspiratorial.
Her repeated lack of detailed recollection or knowledge becomes a theme, echoing broader difficulties in achieving accountability in the Epstein case.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

| Speaker | Quote | Timestamp | |------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------| | Lesley Groff | “This looks like a little black book that was a directory that was kept, you know, in the office...” | 00:38 | | Lesley Groff | “I believe it was Ms. Maxwell [who created the list].” | 01:18 | | Lesley Groff | “I would just be given the directive.” | 09:14 | | Lesley Groff | “Did you ever ask for their age? Answer: No.” | 13:10 | | Lesley Groff | “It was only after about 2013 that I ever stepped foot into the house.” | 14:12 |

Episode Structure & Key Segments

Opening & Introduction — 00:30
Directory Evidence and Procedures — 00:38–03:20
Regional Lists Explored — 03:20–07:40
Descriptors and Director Knowledge — 07:10–07:40
Clarifications on Appointment Scheduling — 09:14–12:00
High-Profile Associates—Denials — 12:00–12:50
Staff and Masseuse Logistics — 12:53–14:28
End of Testimony/Next Episode Tease — 14:28–14:39

Final Thoughts

This revealing episode meticulously reviews Groff’s Congressional responses, highlighting both illuminating details and evasions. It underscores the elaborate logistical efforts behind Epstein’s operations and the compartmentalization that allowed plausible deniability among staff. Host Bobby Capucci methodically unpacks the transcript, setting the stage for further Congressional questioning in the series.

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Transcript8 lines

[00:01]
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[00:31]
Leslie Groff
What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with the Leslie Groff transcript from her interview with Congress. Ms. Tolan, the committee's reviewed multiple documents related to Jeffrey Epstein, including his phone directories. I will now introduce as majority exhibit one. These are excerpts of Mr. Epstein's phone directories that the committee received from the estate of Jeffrey Epstein. These excerpts are labeled as massage lists with names or redacted names of individuals, cell phone numbers and a description next to the name. Mr. Bauchner, before you ask a question, could I just have a quick moment? Tolan? Sure. Take a moment. Thank you, Tolan. Ms. Groff, have you seen these lists before? Answer this looks like a little black book that was a directory that was kept, you know, in the office and at his homes. Question where all were they kept at residences? Answer I believe all residents is yes. Question and you said in offices, in Mr. Epstein's office or in your office? Answer one was on my desk when I started and I believe there were others, other administrators who had them on their desks as well. Question and Ms. Groff, did you create these lists? Answer no. Question do you know who did? Answer I believe it was Ms. Maxwell. Question do you know how she created the list? Answer I do not. I think over time. Question and, and is this to the best of your recollection, is this what the list looked like when you began working for Mr. Epstein? Yes. Question did you add to, change or remove any names from any of these lists? I'm sure I added to the list. I don't think we ever took things out. But we added Brigniak. What would warrant adding someone to this black book? Gruff anyone he met? If I was directed to put a phone number, a name in, and a phone number in, I would put them in. I would actually put it into the computer system, not into the black book. I think the black book was printed from the directory that was on the computer system at the time. Ms. Tolan so who else had authority to add or change names on the Directory. I think that would be anyone in the office. And you mentioned already. But did you use the list to schedule massage appointments for Mr. Epstein? He directed me on who to schedule, so. And it usually it was a name and a phone number. Maybe if it was somebody that he was hiring for a while. After a while he didn't have to give me the phone number because the phone number was in the directory. So he would, if he provided you a name, you would use the directory for the number. Correct. Question. And previously you mentioned that anyone else in the office would have the ability to change the access to these lists. Is that correct? Correct. Who are you referring to here? It would be Ms. Maxwell. We had receptionists at the time, you know, a couple of different ones. Redacted. Who was Darren Indyke's assistant? Could add and subtract. Anybody who had access to the computer system should be able to add and subtract Tolan. And Mr. Epstein, you said, would tell you names and numbers of who to call. Were there ever times when you would. If you would just say you wanted a massage, would you ever choose one to schedule? No. Question. And on the first page of the list, which is house oversight, Bates 400, there is a list of massage names specific to New York. Uh huh. Question. And on the back of the page, there's a list of names also specific to New York. These are labeled A and B. Do you know why there's an A and a B list for New York? I do not. Question. I know it's redacted, but do you know from your role if there's any difference in these two lists? I do not. Question. There is also a list of massage names specific to Florida. Do you know who is on that list? Do you know who created that list? I do not. It was before I got there, Ms. Brignac. But you did add to the list, correct, Grof? Yeah, I could have added to the list, but I don't know. Yes, I added to the list at times. The whole book was before I got there. It had already started. Ms. Brignac, can you recall who you may have added, Ms. Groff? I don't know, Ms. Tolan. And did you schedule from Florida list specifically at any point? It's possible that I scheduled for Florida, but I don't recall anything offhand. Nothing stands out. Same questions here. There is also a list massage New Mexico. Do you know who created that list? I don't. I would think it would be Ms. Maxwell. Question. And did you also use this list to schedule massages for Mr. Epstein in New Mexico. It's possible he didn't go there very often, but it's possible. Question Was there a list of masseuses specific to Paris, France? We know he had an apartment, Mr. Epstein. An apartment there. Was there a list? Answer I don't know. Is there a list? There was not in anything we received. So just if you have knowledge of it. Oh, I don't recall the list. And then within this document there is also a list specific to the UK. Do you know why Mr. Epstein would have had a list of massage names specific to the uk? I do not. Did he ever maintain a residence there? Answer in the uk? Question yes. Answer not that I'm aware of. Did he frequently travel there? Answer no. Question by Brignac. So then what would the UK list be used for? Grof? I don't know. I guess if he went to the uk, did you use it to schedule other people? Grof? Oh no, no. Tolan. And then same questions. There also appears to be a list specific to California. Did you use this list to schedule massages for Mr. Epstein in California? I don't recall. Do you know why he had a list specific to California? I do not. Question did he ever maintain a residence in California? Not that I'm aware of. And did he travel there often? Not often. Question and then there does not appear to be one in this directory. But. But do you know of there being a list specific to the Virgin Islands? Answer I'm not aware of a list specific to the Virgin Islands. Question and next to you can see it. Next to all of the list there are parentheticals. A lot of them read redacted names, friends redacted names, roommate, which we understand to be roommate, redacted pal. And Even on page five, one of the parentheticals reads GM, who we understand to be Ms. Maxwell really likes. What was the purpose of these descriptions? I don't know. I don't even recall descriptors. I really did not use the directory. I used what was on the computer system. It was much faster. But Ms. Groff, you had access to this book? Uh huh. Did you not find it odd that some of the masseuses were friends of other masseuses and not co workers? Answer I did not. I guess I did not. I didn't even think about it. Question. In 20 years you never asked why are we booking masseuse's friends to come give massages as well? I don't. Respectfully, I don't think you laid the foundation that she saw friends there. I think she said she used something in the other computer system, Mr. Whitcomb. Or that massages were happening for 20 years. Same objection, Ms. Brignac. Thank you. I'd still like for you to answer the question. Groff. About friends. I don't recall seeing these. What did you call them? Question descriptors. Answer descriptors. Yeah, I didn't. I don't recall seeing the descriptives or people talking about descriptives. Hey everybody.
[08:44]
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[09:14]
Leslie Groff
I would just be given the directive. Question. So these were not in the online database version and not that I recall. And so these were for Mr. Epstein's awareness rather than you? I don't know if they were for his awareness or Ms. Maxwell's awareness. I don't know whose awareness they were for. And you mentioned there is the online version of the directories. What database was that information stored on? Do you know? I don't have independent knowledge or recollection of this, but I did read Sarah's testimony. Gets cut off by Bochner. Do you want her recollection or do you want to know what she read? Tolan? Her recollection if you know. Grof. Oh, I don't. I don't remember. And do you know if any of that information was ever deleted during the first investigation into Mr. Epstein? I don't know. And do you know if it was deleted at any point? I do not. Question. Was this information ever switched to a different database? We did switch over to Mac computers. Ms. Grof, I'm going to read you a list of names. For each name, please answer yes or no to the following question and I will have follow up questions for each person that you answer yes to. The question is, have you ever scheduled or arranged a massage at any of Jeffrey Epstein's properties for any of the following individuals? Frederick Fakai. No. Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. No. Harvey Weinstein. No. Terry Larson. No. Tommy Mottola? Answer no. Jess Staley? Answer no. George Mitchell. No. Henry Jarecki. No. Eduardo Teodorani. No. Leon Black. No. Glenn Dubin? No. Lapo Elkin? I don't even know Who? That is, no question. Tom Pritzker? No. David Mitchell? No. Did you ever schedule massages of any kind for any of these individuals? No Question. Do you recall scheduling meetings of any kind for any of these individuals? Meetings with Mr. Epstein? Yes. Other than Mr. Epstein, did you ever schedule messages for any of the massages? Excuse me. For any other individual? I scheduled a massage appointment for Kathy Rumler at a spa, and I know he gave her. That's it. That's all I can recall. What did you understand Mr. Epstein's relationship to be with Kathy Rumler? Professional business. Did you think it was weird that he directed you to schedule a massage for Ms. Rumler? Answer I did not. Question by Ms. Tolan and when you were scheduling massage, what information did you gather from the masseuses to schedule them? Answer Just if they could make it, make the appointment or not. Did you ever ask for their age? Answer no. Question. Did you ever ask if they needed travel or car service? Answer no. Question. Were all of the masseuses that you schedule females? No. I know of one man that he would schedule a massage with. How frequently? Not that frequently. Did anyone else besides Epstein give you contact information for masseuses? I think it was just him. And did you ever see any of the masseuses in person? No. Did you or anyone ever expressed concerns to you about. About their appearance or their age? Answer no. Question. Were all of the masseuses local to the area, to New York? Question. Answer Huh. I believe so. Question what did you know about their background, where they came from? Answer Nothing. Question it never came up in conversation, whether with them or another individual? Answer Never. Question Were you aware that many of them were coming from local high schools at the time? Answer no. Question. Were there qualifications as masseuses ever reviewed? Answer no. Question. By anyone? Answer I don't know. Question and where did the actual massages take place in the New York residence? Answer at his home? I don't know. Question where specifically what room? Answer the massage room. Question can you describe that a little more? Answer I've never seen it. I don't know. I don't know anything about it. Question did you maintain an office space within his New York residence at any point? Answer it was only after about 2013 that I ever stepped foot into the house. Prior to that, I had offices elsewhere. Mr. Emmer, just a quick follow up. Did you have any role in preparing the massage room to be used? Answer no. Question. Did you have any role in greeting masseuses when they visited the residence? Answer no. Question. Were you ever present in the room when Mr. Epstein was receiving a massage. Answer no question. I understand that Congressman Biggs has some questions. All right, we're going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode, we're going to pick up with Congressman Biggs and his questions. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.
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