Lesley Groff And The Transcript From Her Epstein Related Trip to Congress (Part 5) (7/4/26)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Epstein Chronicles

Episode: Lesley Groff And The Transcript From Her Epstein Related Trip to Congress (Part 5)
Host: Bobby Capucci
Date: July 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Bobby Capucci dives into a pivotal transcript from Lesley Groff’s appearance before Congress, continuing the detailed examination of Groff’s knowledge, responsibilities, and perspective as one of Jeffrey Epstein’s longtime executive assistants. The episode scrutinizes Groff’s testimony regarding the infamous “black book,” her awareness of Epstein's extensive network of associates—especially those listed under ‘massage’ contacts—and her responses to questions about alleged abuse, trafficking, and the lives of young assistants frequently seen in Epstein’s homes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The “Black Book” and Epstein’s Contact Database

[01:00–04:00]

• Congressional Inquiry about Contact Lists:
  Lesley Groff is questioned about the database and the “black book” she used to set appointments for Epstein:
  • Many names and numbers are redacted in the document.
  • She recognizes "Don" as Don Wicks from Palm Beach.
  • "Gypsy" is identified as a male masseuse, specifically Gypsy Gita, whom Groff refers to as the "so-called guru."
  • There are multiple entries for "Gypsy," suggesting possible code names or multiple people with the same nickname.

Groff [02:04]: "Gypsy was the male masseuse... They're talking about Gypsy Gita, that's who they're talking about. The so-called guru. Yeah, him."

• Unusual Number of Massage Contacts:
  Groff is pressed about the presence of over 50–75 unique names under the “massage” category, spread across international locations (UK, Amsterdam, LA, etc.).
  • She insists that, given Epstein's wealth and vast social circle, maintaining such an extensive directory did not seem odd at the time.

Groff [03:17]: "He had so many people in his realm and knew so many people. It doesn't strike me as odd that he had a lot of different people in his black book in his directory."

• She adds that “massage” was just one category, asserting that Epstein’s contacts in other fields were similarly numerous.

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Congressional Rapid-Fire Questions on Abuse and Allegations

[06:00–08:00]

• Direct Witnessing of Abuse:
  Groff is asked directly if she ever:

  • Witnessed Epstein or Maxwell abusing, exploiting, or having sexual contact with young women or girls:
    She answers "No" to all.

• Knowledge of Other Individuals’ Abuse:
  She is asked about a list of high-profile names (e.g., Bill Gates, Les Wexner, Leon Black, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor) and if she witnessed or heard any allegations of abuse by any of them:
  She answers "No" repeatedly and sometimes clarifies she doesn’t know or recognize certain names.

• Additional Probing by Congress:
  There’s a consistent probing for any knowledge, rumor, or direct observation relating to exploitation or control of young women — Groff firmly denies any such knowledge or involvement.

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The Role of Young Female Assistants in Epstein’s Inner Circle

[08:00–11:00]

• Congressional Scrutiny of Assistant Roles:
  Lawmakers press Groff about the number of young women (ages 20–35) who lived at or frequented Epstein’s residences, asking about the nature of their employment and lives:
  • Groff describes them as “traveling assistants” who performed errands, traveled with Epstein, and helped with daily tasks.
  • She denies managing or controlling their personal lives.

Groff [09:49]: "I believe them to be traveling assistants, and none of them ever looked unhappy or under duress... It was an assistant, chore-type position."

• Congress challenges this:

  • Cites evidence of controlled finances, apartments, and travel — all allegedly under Epstein (and assistants') authority.
  • Asks: “What do you think those humans were doing during that time? Why did they exist in the world?”

• Groff’s Retrospective Perspective:

  • Admits, in hindsight, that the circumstances were “terrible” but maintains she did not see or suspect abuse at the time.
  • Shows difficulty acknowledging control or victimization despite Congress characterizing her views as “victim blaming.”

Groff [10:58]: "In hindsight, it’s terrible. I can’t imagine what they were going through. It’s amazing to me that they were able to put on such a good affront and seem happy..."

• Host Analysis:
  • Capucci interjects his own perspective, critiquing Groff:

Capucci [11:07]: “She’s victim blaming. That’s what Groff is doing. She doesn’t feel any remorse... That’s what it comes down to.”

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Groff’s Direct Relationship to Epstein and the Inner Workings

[12:00–End]

• Groff’s Employment Details:

  • Hired in 2001 at age 35 as an Executive Secretary, earning $50,000.
  • She describes an office hierarchy: multiple assistants assigned to Epstein, Maxwell, and attorneys; she denies managing others.

• Scope of Her Duties:

  • Repeatedly states she only answered to Epstein, not Maxwell or other staff (like attorneys Darren Indyke or Richard Kahn).

Groff [13:09]: “It was Mr. Epstein, purely.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• [02:04] Groff on “Gypsy” entries:
  “Gypsy was the male masseuse... They’re talking about Gypsy Gita, that’s who they’re talking about. The so-called guru.”

• [03:17] Groff on the vast contacts:
  “He had so many people in his realm and knew so many people. It doesn’t strike me as odd that he had a lot of different people in his black book in his directory.”

• [09:49] Groff on young assistants:
  “I believe them to be traveling assistants, and none of them ever looked unhappy or under duress... It was an assistant chore-type position.”

• [10:58] Groff reflecting:
  “In hindsight, it’s terrible. I can’t imagine what they were going through. It’s amazing to me that they were able to put on such a good affront and seem happy...”

• [11:07] Bobby Capucci’s commentary on Groff’s stance:
  “She’s victim blaming. That’s what Groff is doing. She doesn’t feel any remorse... That’s what it comes down to.”

• [13:09] Groff clarifies her role:
  “It was Mr. Epstein, purely.”

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Important Timestamps

• 01:00–04:00: In-depth discussion of “black book” entries and massage contacts
• 06:00–08:00: Rapid-fire Congressional questions about knowledge of abuse and high-profile names
• 08:00–11:00: Probe into nature of assistants’ work and living conditions, Groff’s retrospective thoughts
• 12:00–End: Groff’s employment history, role, and operational structure of Epstein’s office

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Tone & Language

• The episode maintains a serious, forensic tone, in line with Congressional hearings.
• Groff’s statements are businesslike, measured, and sometimes defensive.
• Capucci’s commentary is pointed, direct, and critical, especially regarding Groff’s lack of ownership or apparent remorse.

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Conclusion

This installment of The Epstein Chronicles takes listeners deep into the procedural details and forensic questioning that shape the congressional pursuit of answers in the Epstein investigation. Through Lesley Groff’s testimony, the episode exposes gaps in accountability, the normalization of unusual and exploitative patterns within Epstein’s organization, and the persistent challenge of obtaining admissions or remorse from those in his employ. The episode ends with the promise of more detailed transcript analysis in the next installment.

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Transcript

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[Leslie Groff]

What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with Leslie Groff and the transcripts from her interview with Congress. Mr. Biggs, thank you. Thank you very much. I don't want this to be tedious, but I just really feel like we need to explore this. Recalling the database that you use to make calls, to set these appointments, and looking at that list in the exhibit that you have before you now, do they seem at least similar to you? I mean, do you recognize some of the names, numbers, etc? Grof. Most of them are redacted. Biggs. Most of the New York ones are redacted. Grof. Are redacted. Right. I recognize Don as Don Wicks in Palm Beach. Biggs. Palm Beach. He's in Florida. Grof. Yes. Biggs. Any others? Grof. No. Biggs. Let's explore that for a second. Dawn. WR has three numbers and three descriptions by them. One is B, one is W, one is H. I don't want to assume something, but what do those mean? Gruff, I would think. Work. Home. I don't know what B means. Biggs. Business, perhaps? Groff. Business. Bigs. Which raises this odd question. I mean, you had her home number, you had her work number and her business number. Did that strike you as odd that she had multiple. Apparently multiple numbers? Whitcomb. You've gotta let him finish the question. Biggs. Yeah, through multiple places. You can go there. Groff. It did not strike me as strange. Biggs. Was Dawn a regular of his? Groff. She had. She had her husband and a medical Spa. Her husband was a chiropractor And I know Mr. Epstein went to her spa. Biggs, let's go back to the front page because this is something that this is unredacted. And I don't know if you said that you made some, maybe you made some of the appointments in California. Did I understand that right? Groff? It's possible he didn't go to California very often. Biggs, looking at the list, perhaps you looked at it then as you go down the list, particularly in the second row, the second column, I should say Gypsy has a phone number. Gypsy has a phone number. Another Gypsy has a phone number. Mr. Groff. Oh yes, Biggs. Sports Connection has a phone number. And then looking at those, did you see those then? Just to clarify that, Groff. It's possible. Biggs. Would it strike you as odd that there's no name? It's just Gypsy? Mr. Groff. Gypsy was the male masseuse. Mr. Biggs. There's multiple gypsies on here. Groff. It was, it was his name. That's what we called him. And they're talking about Gypsy Gita. That's who they're talking about. The so called guru. Yeah, him. Mr. Biggs. Well, there's another one named Redacted and the descriptor here is one of Gypsy. What does that mean? Gough? Oh, I don't know, Biggs. I mean, I don't want to suppose, but I mean there are some suppositions we could make. You didn't find that curious perhaps? Let's go to the UK massage list for a second. You have a number, you've got some redactions there. What's not redacted is Los Angeles. What might that mean? Did you see that? It's the second column. I'm sorry, last one of the redacted in the massage uk. Grof. Oh, I don't know, Biggs. The one above, it says Amsterdam. Grof. I don't know, Biggs. Jean Luc Bim. Grof. Jean Lucgs. Do you know who Jean Luc Bim is? Grof. I don't know, Biggs. I'm going to stop there. Well, I'm not going to stop there. I'm going to ask another question, but then I'll stop. And that is as you think back now, looking back now from this vantage point that you're in now, and you had a database on the computer, you have this black book that you had access to as well. Did any of that strike you as odd that Mr. Epstein was keeping, literally, by my count, well over 50 or 75 different discrete names in. In various massage columns from all over the world vis a vis whatever he had in the database. Did that strike you as odd at all? Grof? Does it strike me as odd now? Biggs yeah. Looking back, Grof, he had so many people in his realm and knew so many people. It doesn't strike me as odd that he had a lot of different people in his black book in his directory. It's not surprising the width and the depth of the people that he knew. This is one category. But I believe he had the same amount of people in other categories as well. Bigs. But in particular with the massage category all over the world, that didn't strike you as odd that, for instance, in California, he maintained the names of 26 different masseuses. Groth. I mean, he was very wealthy and he knew a lot of people. And when he went to, anytime he met anyone, he'd put them in the directory. It would. It could be a passing. He must have been a prolific massage receiver. Thank you. Thank you. Emmer. We've had another member of Congress join us. Can he please identify himself? Representative Scott Perry, Pennsylvania's 10th district. Emmer. We've also had an additional staff member or members join since we started. Can they identify themselves? Mr. Emmer. Thank you. Both redacted. Tolan recognizing we only have a couple minutes left in our hour. Go ahead, Emmer. We've had another member join. Can you please identify yourself for the record? James Walkinshaw, 11th District, Virginia. Ms. Tolan, recognizing we only have a little bit of time, I'm going to ask you a few quick questions. Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein have sexual contact of any kind with any other young woman or girl? No. Did you ever witness Ms. Maxwell have sexual contact of any kind with any other young woman or girl? Answer no, Question. Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein abuse or assault any young woman or girl? Answer no Question. Did any young woman or girl ever tell you that Mr. Epstein or anyone else abused or assaulted them? Answer no. Question. Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein exploit any young woman or girls? Answer no Question. Question. Did you ever witness Ms. Maxwell exploit any young women or girls? Answer no Question. Did you ever witness any other individual, aside from Mr. Epstein abuse or assault any young women or girls? Answer no, question. I'm going to ask you a list of names for the same question. Did you ever witness any of the following individuals abuse or assault any young women or girls? Frederick Fakai. Answer No. Philip Levine. Answer no. Les Wexner. Answer no. Leon Black. Answer No. Bill Gates? Answer no. Jess Staley? Answer no. Andrew Mountbatten Windsor. Answer no. Harvey Weinstein? No. Terry Larson? No. Tommy Mottola? No. George Mitchell? No. Henry Jarecki? No. Eduardo Teodorani? No. Glenn Dubin? No. Lapo Elkin? No. I don't know who that is. Question. Tom Pritzker? Answer no. David Mitchell? No. Question. Did you ever hear any allegations about any of these men? Answer no. Mr. Timmons, real quick. From 2013 until you left, the majority of that time there were eight 20 to 35 year old women that were in the house with them at all times. What do you think they did? What was their job like? They were just around. Grof. You're referring to Timmins. I've got redacted, redacted, redacted, redacted, redacted, redacted and redacted. What did they do? So they were around for years? Grof. They were Timmons and you ran their lives. Grof. I did not run their lives. Timmons, did you control when they got a haircut? Groff. I did not control when they got a haircut. Timmons. We got an email. We'll get to that in a minute. But so I mean, they say that their credit cards were controlled by Epstein, by you, Khan, Indyke, and redacted. They had loans taken out in their names. Their apartments were at the behest of Epstein. And they say that you were largely responsible for managing that. Their computers, their phones, their flights, their hotels, all their travel, all of their life was run by Epstein. What do you think those humans were doing during that time? Why did they exist in the world?

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[Leslie Groff]

Groff. I believe them to be traveling assistants and none of them ever looked unhappy or under duress. They would travel with them and do errands and source things. They were not all together at all the time with them. It was a demanding job to travel with them. It would appear to me to have to leave given 12 hours notice. Hey, we're going to Palm beach tomorrow. To me it would be grueling to ask one person to do that all the time I think they would get burnt out. And so he would take one or two with him, but they would get him coffee, they would go out and get him a burger. It was an assistant chore type of position. Timmons. They all just happened to be fairly beautiful and similar age. Groff. I think that in order to be a traveling assistant, it seems consistent that you would have someone who's in their 20s or early 30s, not married. It made sense as that seems typical to me. Timmons, in retrospect, do you appreciate that they feel like they were victims of sex and human trafficking and were being controlled by Epstein every part of their life? Grof, in retrospect, in hindsight. In hindsight, it's terrible. I can't imagine what they were going through. It's amazing to me that they were able to put on such a good affront and seem happy. It was. It's hard. It's hard for me to fathom. She's victim blaming. That's what Grof is doing. She doesn't feel any remorse. She doesn't think she did anything wrong. That's what it comes down to. Question. Ms. Grof. I recognize that we are at time for our hour, but I just have three very quick questions to end on. Do you have any direct knowledge of Mr. Epstein ever engaging in sexual relations with any of his assistants? No. Question. Did you ever witness Mr. Epstein receive a massage from young women or girls? Answer. No. Question. Did you ever receive a massage from anyone associated with Mr. Epstein? Answer. I went to a spa one time not associated with him. Ms. Tolan. Thank you. We will end our hour and go off record. Ms. Redacted. Good morning, Ms. Groff. My name is Ms. Redacted and I'll be doing most of the questioning for the minority today. I'm going to cover some of the same topics that the majority covered with you in the previous round. This is not to make you repeat yourself, but rather to make sure what we have is as clear a record as possible. I appreciate your patience while I do that. In addition to the extent of any of my questions or any of your answers involve survivor names or other survivor identifying information, I ask on behalf of the minority that the majority redacts the information prior to to releasing the Transcript publicly. Question. Ms. Groff, I'd like to start with your work from Mr. Epstein. Started work for him in 2001, correct? Yes. And you were 35 years old at that point? Yes. Your title was Executive Secretary, correct? Yes. And you were paid $50,000, correct? Yes. You talk a little bit about your role and responsibilities and also about the people that you work with. Can you say more about the other assistants that Mr. Epstein had and your relationship to them? Answer sure. In the office, there was an assistant to Ms. Maxwell. There was an assistant to the two attorneys. There was when I first started a traveling assistant, there was another assistant there. She was only there briefly. And we had a receptionist I replaced. Redacted she was Mr. Epstein's assistant and then I replaced her. So then redacted became the receptionist. Question did you at any point manage any of those assistants? Answer no Question so you never had your own team of assistants? Answer no Question how did you fit in within the larger operation? So you mentioned earlier Darren Indyke also there was Richard Kahn. Would they have ever asked you to do anything? Would you, Ghisne Maxwell, ever ask you to do anything or did you only respond to Mr. Epstein? Answer it was Mr. Epstein purely all right folks, we're going to wrap up right here and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.

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