Mega Edition: Bill Barr And The Epstein Related Deposition Given To Congress (Part 1-3) (5/18/26)

Summary

The Epstein Chronicles — Mega Edition: Bill Barr and the Epstein Deposition Before Congress (Parts 1–3)

Podcast: The Epstein Chronicles
Host: Bobby Capucci
Episode: Mega Edition: Bill Barr And The Epstein Related Deposition Given To Congress (Part 1-3)
Original Air Date: May 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

This extensive, multipart episode centers on the recent congressional deposition of former U.S. Attorney General Bill Barr regarding his knowledge and actions related to the Jeffrey Epstein case, particularly around Epstein’s arrest, detention, death, and the investigation afterward. Host Bobby Capucci methodically reads through and analyzes the deposition transcript, offering direct quotes and his own frequent asides questioning the rigor and transparency of official narratives.

The episode is highly detailed, focusing on what Barr knew, when he knew it, and the institutional responses to Epstein’s incarceration and death. Barr is questioned by unnamed congressional staff, Rep. Jasmine Crockett, and others, covering everything from the initial investigations into Epstein and Maxwell, the night of Epstein's death, critical security failures at MCC Manhattan, forensic considerations, and Barr’s perspective on conspiracy theories that have swirled around the case.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Barr’s Background and Roles Relevant to Epstein Investigation

• Education and Experience: Barr recounts his education at Columbia and GW Law, early work at the CIA, and appointments as Attorney General under both Presidents H.W. Bush and Trump.
• Awareness of Investigations: Barr details the workflow for how significant cases reach the Attorney General: “Generally, people would report into the Deputy… things that had come that required my attention would come through that system.” (03:20)

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2. Barr’s Knowledge of Epstein and Maxwell Prior to Arrests

• Personal Acquaintance:

  • Q: “Have you ever met Mr. Epstein?”
    Barr: “Not to my knowledge.” (02:50)
  • Q: “Have you ever met Ms. Ghislaine Maxwell?”
    Barr: “Not to my knowledge.” (05:12)

• Awareness of Investigations: Barr was informed of ongoing investigations prior to and at the time of Epstein’s arrest in 2019, recalling no specific meetings but “aware that the Southern District was...conducting an investigation.” (06:17)

• Nature of Investigations:

  • On Epstein: “They were investigating whether he committed trafficking offenses, particularly focusing on his exploitation of young women, and… whether any individuals were accomplices or complicit.” (07:05)
  • On Maxwell: She was considered a “prime person” of interest once Epstein died and the investigation ramped up. (09:40)

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3. Breakdown of the Events Surrounding Epstein’s Death

The Security Footage and Physical Layout

• Footage Review: Barr confirms he personally reviewed security footage from MCC but found no missing minutes or visible anomalies (14:20). However, the footage had “blind spots” — areas not covered by cameras, including part of the stairway to Epstein’s cell (16:33, 17:50).

  • Notable Quote:
    Q: “Do you agree that there is a bit of a blind spot on this camera?”
    Barr: “Yes.” (16:33)

• Physical Security:

  • Entry into the Special Housing Unit (SHU) required multiple steps, involving both remote control access and keys held by officers. Barr believed it was not “physically possible” for someone to enter L block undetected (19:22).
  • No command logs personally reviewed by Barr, although he relied on FBI and BOP assurances that no unauthorized entry occurred (21:13).

Timeline and Protocols

• Discovery of Epstein’s Death:
  • Barr learned “Sunday morning…my chief of staff saying that Epstein died from an apparent suicide.” (23:34)
  • Review of policies: After a July suicide attempt, Epstein was under suicide watch—later downgraded after psychological assessment and legal pressure—then subject to 30-minute checks and required a cellmate. (24:50)

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4. Forensic and Investigative Findings

• Coroner’s Report & Cause of Death:

  • Barr read the official report, noting that the medical examiner found no evidence of struggle: “The idea that people would go in there and hang him in that way...without any sign of scuffle was not plausible.” (29:30)
  • Barr stands by suicide ruling, explains absence of typical defensive wounds, and that Epstein’s size and cell layout make murder implausible in his view.
  • Notable debate over “kneeling hanging” vs. other methods — Barr leans on the official narrative.

• Dr. Michael Baden’s Contradiction:

  • Concern referenced about Epstein’s larynx and hyoid fractures, as flagged by Dr. Baden, a frequent expert witness.
    • Q: “Do you recall Dr. Baden being involved at the time?”
      Barr: “He came in after…offered another view of it…No one expressed agreement [with Baden] during any of my conversations.” (32:40)
  • Barr asserts the department did not find cause to treat the death as homicide.

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5. Conspiratorial Possibilities & Host Commentary

• Coordination Improbable:

  • Barr emphasizes difficulty of conspiracy: “It would have required coordination from probably two dozen people...” (35:55)
  • Capucci, the host, expresses skepticism: “We have no idea who was in that jail cell or in those cells that were next to Jeffrey Epstein...But it’s always surface level with these people, right?” (36:50)

• State of Mind & Final Days:

  • Barr describes learning that Epstein made out his last will, failed to secure bail, and made a call to a girlfriend in Belarus—all “consistent with suicide.” (39:30–40:35)
  • Capucci notes that Epstein’s attorneys have publicly contradicted that narrative, suggesting a far less despondent Epstein in his final days.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “Did you ever meet Jeffrey Epstein?”
  — Barr: “Not to my knowledge.” (02:50)
• “They were investigating whether he committed trafficking offenses, particularly focusing on his exploitation of young women.” (07:05)
• “Helping conscript young girls into Epstein’s network of young girls… who engaged in sexual activity with him.” (08:45)
• “My recollection was a portion of the stairway was reflected on the video.” (17:57)
• “I do not think it was physically possible for someone else to go up that stairway.” (18:59)
• “The video was the icing on the cake. There was a lot of evidence about, you know, his state of mind and other physical evidence pointing to suicide…” (20:05)
• “Absolutely. [Still your opinion that Mr. Epstein died by suicide?]” (24:05)
• “I did review the coroner’s report… there was no sign of a struggle…not plausible.” (29:30)
• “It would have required coordination from probably two dozen people… For all that to be coordinated, I think… maybe two dozen people.” (35:55)
• Host commentary: “We have no idea who was in that jail cell…so could somebody have been planted in there previously? We got a whole ass rabbit hole still to jump down.” (36:50)
• “All these people were in different groups… For all that to be coordinated, it would have required maybe two dozen people.” (36:04)

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Timeline Highlights

[01:00–05:12] — Barr’s background, appointments as AG, confirmation he never met Epstein or Maxwell
[06:17–09:40] — Barr’s awareness of Southern District’s Epstein investigation; references to Maxwell
[14:20–17:57] — Review of MCC security footage; discussion of camera blind spots
[18:59–21:13] — Physical layout and access controls in the SHU; Barr’s belief no entry possible
[23:34–24:50] — Discovery of Epstein’s death; suicide watch protocols
[29:30–32:40] — Coroner’s findings; debate on method of hanging; Dr. Baden’s dissent
[35:55–36:50] — Barr on implausibility of coordinated murder; host calls out unanswered questions
[39:30–40:35] — Epstein’s apparent state of mind; last will, bail denial, call to girlfriend
[41:24–41:51] — Host wrap-up and lead-in for next installment

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Tone & Language

• Barr: Deliberate, cautious, leaning heavily on institutional process and official reports.
• Host Bobby Capucci: Pointed, relentless, skeptical of officialdom—frequently pausing the transcript to question, prod, and suggest lines of inquiry or doubt not followed by Congress or the DOJ.

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Summary for New Listeners

This Mega Edition provides both a primary source (Barr’s congressional deposition) and a layer of persistent, populist skepticism via Capucci, who both summarizes and interrogates the official story. Topics covered include Barr’s limited oversight of the original investigations, forensic and institutional details around Epstein’s death, dissenting expert opinions, and the enduring cloud of conspiracy that still shrouds the case. It is essential listening for those seeking both the government’s perspective and the questions that remain unresolved about one of the 21st century’s most notorious criminal scandals.

Transcript

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[Host (Possibly Dave)]

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[Host (Possibly Dave)]

Dave what's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. So we have the Bill Barr transcript from his deposition that he gave to the committee when he sat down for a talk a few weeks ago. So in this episode we're going to begin taking a look at that transcript and at what Bill Barr had to say during this interrogation, if you want to call it that. So obviously Bill Barr is going to be the one answering the questions and we have a lot of redactions here. So if we don't have a name for the person asking the question, I'll say redacted and then I'll ask the question and then obviously the answers are from Bill Darth Barr. Unless, of course, something changes. And if it does, I'll make sure I let you know as we're going through this. All right, so we're going to start with the examination and we're going to bypass them, swearing them in by redacted. So the person asking the questions is redacted. Question Very briefly, we want to go through your background and the only two experiences that I think are relevant today. Where did you attend undergrad and what year did you graduate? Bar graduated Columbia College in 71. I got my master's from Columbia in 73, went to law school at GW here in Washington at night and graduated in in 1977. Thank you. During that time I worked at CIA. And then President H.W. bush appointed you to be United States attorney general from 91 to 93, is that correct? Barr? Yes, I was in the department at the start of his administration and he Ultimately appointed me Attorney General. Question. And then President Trump appointed you Attorney General in February of 2019, and then you left in December of 2020, correct? Right. I was confirmed in February of 2019. Were you acting prior to your confirmation? No. Moving on to the topic at hand, just some preliminary questions. Have you ever met Mr. Epstein? Have I what? Have you ever met Jeffrey Epstein, Bar? Not to my knowledge. Question. I'll pause for a minute. Ms. Crockett, do you mind identifying yourself for the record? And now we got Jasmine Crockett asking questions. Yes. Jasmine Crockett, Texas 30. Question. And then have you ever met Ms. Glenn Maxwell? Not to my knowledge. In general, is the Attorney General aware of every federal criminal investigation that's happening at any given point? No. Question. What sort of cases would the Attorney General be made aware of? Well, generally, things would percolate. Generally, people would report into the Deputy Attorney General. Every morning. I would have a staff meeting where the deputy participated and his principal staff and my own staff and matters that had come that required my attention would come through that system. Sometimes offices would directly communicate with me, or especially when there was a conflict. But matters would either come to my attention if there was a disagreement within the department or if it was a matter of national importance. Did you or your staff closely monitor high profile cases within the United States? I think my staff monitored high profile cases and brought things to my attention that they felt I should be aware of. And then for pretty much the remainder of the deposition, will focus on your time as Attorney General in the first Trump administration. Sure. Do you have any conversations about Epstein case while you were Attorney General? By bar? Any conversations? Yeah, just broadly, yes. Do you recall when the first one was? I became at some point, and this was six years ago, but I became aware that the Southern District was. Was conducting an investigation. I think it was a little bit before his arrest, but I can't be sure that it could have been around the time of his arrest. But I was aware that they were conducting an investigation. Now, I don't recall specific discussions surrounding that. I could tell you what my understanding of what they were investigating, but I don't remember particular conversations. It's just my impression of what came up at the time. Can you describe your general understanding of what they were investigating? So my understanding was that they were investigating whether he committed trafficking offenses, particularly focusing on his exploitation of young women, and they were trying to make the case against him. And in that context, they were also looking at whether any individuals were accomplices or complicit in that Activity either as facilitators. As you know, they ultimately went after and convicted Ghislaine Maxwell. And I think they were, and I know they were also looking at whether there was evidence to charge anyone with participating in trafficking by having their involvement with the trafficked victims. Question to the best that you can, can you describe the difference between what participating in the trafficking would be and what facilitating that trafficking would be? Answer Having. Well, the latter. I mean, I'm sorry, participation as would be having illicit sex with a minor, a traffic minor, and facilitating or anyone who was trafficking. Yeah. Answer by bar but certainly what the focus was on was illicit sexual activity with a minor. And then what would facilitating be of? I believe Ms. Maxwell was. And to that Barr cuts off the person asking the question. Answer. Helping conscript young girls into Epstein's network of young girls who primarily were involved in giving him massages and engaged in sexual activity with him. Question and then you said, you don't, correct me if I'm wrong, don't really recall more than the general conversations at that point in time. Answer. Right. Question do you recall who those conversations were with or kind of surrounding the arrest of Epstein in 2019? Yeah, it was either before. It could have been before the arrest, but certainly by the time of the arrest I was aware of it and it would have been. It would have been the people who normally attend my meeting. It could have been a conversation with the U.S. attorney, but I don't remember if it was. Do you recall who normally attended those meetings? You might have said earlier, but it would have been the deputy and the deputy's principal associate, as well as my chief of staff and sometimes additional members of the staff. And it would also include, from time to time, you know, other people, other members of the staff who were directly concerned with the matter. Do you recall any conversations with the FBI at that point in time, still sticking to surrounding his arrest? No. Question. And then you said you might have included the U.S. attorney. Are you referring to the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Jeff Berman? Yes. Do you recall any conversations with anyone in the Southern District of Florida that time? I don't recall. And then do you recall any conversations with Mr. Alex Acosta at that time? Not about. Not about this case. Not about Epstein. Not about Epstein. Okay. He obviously served in the administration. Yes. With you. So in other cases. Yes. Similar questions, different time frame and different subject for Ms. Maxwell. Do you recall any conversations about Ms. Maxwell or the Maxwell case when you were Attorney General? Yes. I can't pinpoint particular discussions I think once he committed suicide, you know, the office. I remember being told and agreeing that the office had to go full bore ahead on finding other crimes that may have been committed, including looking for people who are accomplices in some way or complicit in some way. And her name came up in that context, obviously as a prime person. Question and don't recall just to avoid the same list of people, but don't recall specific conversations with anybody regarding the case. Answer. I may have had some conversations with Berman where he said in the wake of the suicide that he, you know, that the office was very much committed to continuing the case. Getting to the bottom of everything. Question I'm going to and to that she's cut off or he's cut off by bar. Answer I would say she disappeared and there was this embarrassing period where they couldn't locate her. And you know, at some point I became aware that they were prepared to indict her and that they couldn't find her. But aside from that general information, I couldn't recall anything specific about that. I believe they eventually found her in like a cabin in Vermont or something. New Hampshire. New Hampshire. Do you recall how they ended up finding her? No, I don't. I'm gonna shift ahead in the timeline a little bit to Mr. Epstein's death while at MCC in Manhattan. So you previously stated that you personally reviewed the security footage from MCC from August 9th, 2019 into the morning of August 10th. We'll put up with the department has since released just so you can review it. And I just want to ask you a first question. Does this look like the security footage that you would have reviewed at the time? No, I can't remember specifically the security footage and what the composition of it was. I do recall that it showed the common area and a portion of the stairway up to Tier L. I think it's Tier L. Yes. So I'll ask some more specific questions. But this is about 11 hours that the department released this month or so ago. And well, we'll look at it schematically. It's a camera pointed towards the common area of the special Housing Unit at mcc. The stairway on the left goes to a different tier and then you can see a very little bit of stairway on the right that goes to Tier L. Uhuh. But you do. I really can't compare it because I can't really remember. Yeah, exactly what I saw. I remember. What I remember about what I saw is that the resolution was good enough that I could see what the guards were up to. The corrections officers were doing. I mean, not crystal clear, but I could tell that they were looking at computers and working on computers and so forth. So I remember that the resolution was pretty good. And it may have been. It could have been an enhanced or in large part of this, I just don't remember. Question and to the best of your recollection, were there any anomalies in the tape that you reviewed, any missing minutes or anything like that? Answer not that I'm aware of. I was told that it covered the period from the time he was put in his cell to the time he was discovered. I wasn't told of any missing minute and didn't notice any. Question do you recall viewing other camera angles, like a camera pointed down to your L or a camera in the stairwell or anything? Answer I do remember other footage, looking at other footage as well, but I think some may have been in the hallways or entrances, things like that. Question did the Inspector general end up reviewing Mr. Epstein's death?

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[Host (Possibly Dave)]

Answer yeah. Question and they found that the camera pointed directly down L block was. Was transmitting in real time but not recording to dvr. Yeah. Does that match your recollection? That matches my recollection. Let me just say that, you know, that video came to me after, but a lot of information started coming to me immediately in the wake of his death. And I was getting a lot of information sort of real time and including from the bureau. And as I found out things, you know, I started reaching my conclusions and this sort of came later in my Process. Okay. It wasn't the first thing I looked at. Yeah. I think it took some time of working to get whatever they were getting to me. So. Question. I'll try to cover as much as I can, but we'll start with the video. Redacted. I'm going to go ahead and introduce what will be Exhibit 3, just because I think it'll help in the discussion. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here. And in the next episode, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking up where we left off with Bill Barr and his Epstein related deposition. So the exhibit that they show is a map of the special housing unit, the top tier of the special housing unit at MCC with the cell. And it's produced by CBS. Bill.

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Bar.

[Host (Possibly Dave)]

Yeah. Question. And Mr. Epstein's cell is the one highlighted in red. And just while we're looking at this and looking at the camera footage, the camera angle that we're looking at is a little alcove in kind of the center of the map. Mr. O'. Callaghan. This is. You're representing that redacted about. Yes, I am. Mr. O'. Callaghan. Okay. Redacted. And I can pull the CBS article. Mr. O'. Callaghan. I just want to make sure he's looking at where you're pointing. Redacted. So the camera positioned right there. Mr. O'. Callaghan. See, look at what redacted is doing. Redacted that camera position right here and pointed towards the common area. Mr. O'. Callaghan. So it's up here. Bar. Okay, I'm glad. Yeah. Mr. O'. Callaghan. And that's his cell. Bar. Right. Mr. O'. Callaghan. Okay. Redacted. All right. I'm going to play 30ish seconds just so we can get our bearings on what the movings of the jail look like. And Mr. O' Callaghan is Bill Barr's lawyer. Question. So just while this is playing, you see what appears to be corrections officers kind of walking around the common area, going back to the desk. And then there are specific points I want to point out. So that corrections officers came from what appears to be a blind spot on the camera towards the right. And that inmate came from what appears to be a blind spot on the camera to the right. We can pause it. I understand. We reviewed 15 seconds of the footage, but based off that review, do you agree that there is a bit of a blind spot on this camera blocked by the stair landing and that cell? Yes. I'm going to shift ahead to the 9:20 mark. So I will preface this with this 7:49pm on August 9th, 2019. Hit play video shown redacted. So this video shows Mr. Epstein escorted from. Escorted by corrections officers from making a phone call back to his cell in L block. So you can see him kind of go out of the frame and go up those stairs to l block. Mr. O', Callaghan, again, representing that that's Epstein walking through? Yes. And o', Callaghan, you can't really tell. So is the doj, IG and the FBI the witness meaning bar. I'm not going to challenge it. Okay. And that was going to be my next. Is that your recollection of that scene and as well, that around 7:49pm Mr. Epstein went to his cell for the evening? Answer I can't actually say that's my recollection of events that I saw in the video, which is him being taken to the cell that was 7:49 or whatever. Question. And then again, understanding that we watched about 10 seconds of that walk from his phone to his cell. But in addition to the blind spot of the camera kinda off, like to the right, it's also a bit of a blind spot on the staircase up to L block. Would you agree? Answer. On this video, you know, only a portion of the stairway all the way is reflected and my recollection was a portion of the stairway was reflected on the video. Question that you reviewed as well. Answer yes. Question okay. Do you recall reviewing any video that showed the staircase in its entirety? No Question. Do you recall reviewing any video that showed L Block in its entirety? No question. So going back to the diagram and understanding, kind of again, we reviewed all of 30 seconds of this footage, but I am representing that it's the 30 seconds that surround his death or surround him going back to his cell. The blind spot also includes this door on the kind of center of the. Of the schematic, which is an entrance into the special housing unit. And just asking, based off your experience and everything that you've reviewed, looking at this, looking at the video, the only video that's publicly available, is it possible for someone to get up to Mr. Epstein's cell while evading that camera? I don't believe so. You don't believe so? No. Even though part of the staircase is blocked and the entire doorway would be blocked? Answer Yes, I do not think it was physically possible for Someone else to go up that stairway. Question. And then the question asker is cut off by bar. You. But then he's cut off. Question. At the time you said you believe no one entered L block between the time. Answer. Not just because of the cameras, though. Question. Huh? Bar. Yeah. So what other evidence did you have to support that statement that no one entered el block between 7:50ish and. Okay, well, I know we're starting with the video, but for me, the video was the icing on the cake. Okay. Okay. So there was a lot of evidence about, you know, his state of mind and other physical evidence pointing to suicide and also testimonial and records pointing to this. But one aspect of this is that the shoe itself physically isolated from the rest of the facility and that it only has two entranceways. The primary entranceway has to be open remotely by central control, so no one would have the key for it. And it was my understanding that that would leave a record of it being opened. So there was no way to come in that door except going through central control, having it remotely opened. And the second door, the second question. I'm sorry, just. The primary door is the door in the center of the schematic that appears open in the picture. Is that the primary one? Mr. O'. Callaghan, he's saying this one bar the one up here. Redacted. Yes, o'. Callahan. Are you pointing to the black rectangular section? Yes, o'. Callahan. He's saying it's that. Which one is the primary entrance into the shu? Answer. Well, I don't recognize the schematic, but from my recollection is the primary. The primary exit is over on the right hand side. Question. Okay, answer. And if it's over here, then I would have to see the schematic. But my recollection is that you have to come up an elevator and then you get into a room where you have to get through the control door that can only be open centrally. And then once you get through that, you. You come through the door that immediately enters onto the shu, and that requires a key. And my understanding was that the key to that was held by the officers inside the shoe, and they would have to come and let the person in. That's my understanding. So I think that it was not physically possible in the first instance. Well, in my opinion, for someone to come through there. But otherwise, it was also my judgment that the video corroborated the. That because, number one, it showed the two officers who were in the shoe, the only ones in the shoe at the time, did not leave their desk. So they didn't go to let anyone in. Question huh? Answer and second, it was my judgment, from what I saw in the camera and what I looked at, I didn't think it was possible for someone to get up to the tier and open the door without being picked up on camera. So. Question Opening the door would also potentially make noise. Oh, clearly it's a big heavy steel door. Question yeah. Answer yeah. Question thank you. And then you said that in the central command had to open one of the doors and then a key. Yes. Located at the guard desk had to open another set of doors. Right. Question did you review the command logs? No, I didn't. Question. Question Nobody entered. Answer I didn't review them, no. Question oh, you didn't review the command logs. Are you aware of the to that the person asking the question is cut off? Answer I didn't personally review them. I was aware that they had judged that it was not possible for someone to come in. Question Are you aware if anyone reviewed whether or not an entrance or exit was logged? Answer I believe the Bureau was looking at that intensively. But the whole issue of whether this could have been anything other than a suicide. Question Are you referring to the Bureau of Prisons or the FBI? Answer I'm sorry, the FBI. Question. Thank you. Answer and the IG Question and they did an almost four year investigation into this. I think the IG did. Question yeah. Answer the Bureau was much quicker. Question now we're going to go back back in time based on the evidence that you reviewed around 6:30am on August 10th. I'm not sure their title, but the individual delivering breakfast to the inmates attempted to deliver breakfast to Mr. Epstein. He did not answer his door. He called the guards and they found the body and began providing medical care. Does it sound correct to you? To the best of your recollection? Yes. And then about an hour later, he was pronounced dead at a hospital at New York Presbyterian, I believe, in New York. I know he was pronounced dead at the hospital. Yeah. When were you first informed of Mr. Epstein's death? It was Sunday morning. I was in my study at home and I got a call from my chief of staff saying that Epstein died from an apparent suicide. Do you recall about how close in time it was to the pronouncement of death? I don't recall. It was in the morning, I believe. And it's still your opinion today that Mr. Epstein died by suicide? Absolutely. Before getting into what kind of the investigation looked like, after that, what information was flowing to you? Do you Know, to the best of your knowledge, what are the policies and procedures in place that were in place to ensure that Mr. Epstein didn't commit suicide? Well, there had been, as you know, there had been an attempted suicide in July. And based on that, they put him under suicide watch, which is the most intensive form of monitoring. And when he was taken off suicide watch, based on the psychologists at the MCC making the determination that he could be taken off that kind of intensive watch, I found out afterward, you know, his lawyers had been pressing hard for him to be let out of suicide watch. And in any event, he was put on the next level down, which was, I forget exactly the term used for it, but required that he have a cellmate and that he was checked on every 30 minutes.

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[Host (Possibly Dave)]

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[Host (Possibly Dave)]

In addition to, you know, the other general security systems in place, those were the two that applied directly to him that were supposed to prevent this question and on understanding suicide watch is very intensive, requires a lot of staff power. And on suicide watch, are they provided with clothes that don't tear, the sheets that don't tear? I believe that's the case question and then when you were first provided with a more formal briefing regarding Mr. Epstein's death, I think it came virtually every day. I found out more information. You know, I was obviously covering it very quickly and wanted to rule out anything other than suicide. And, and so pertinent information was flowing to me pretty consistently. Question and it was answer the FBI conducting an investigation and the Southern district was involved in that. I within an hour or minutes of finding out about it. I directed the IG to have people in New York go to the scene and conduct an investigation, start an investigation. Question. And you've already said that, you know, you reviewed security camera footage. Obviously there was a previous suicide attempt that probably had psychologist notes and things that were available to the FBI and BOP to review and the IG to review. Were there any other things that you reviewed specifically? Answer. I would review photographs when people were discussing things that were pertinent. I may have seen. I think I may have been shown logs that were apparently, you know, erroneously filled out by the corrections officers, things like that. The systems were explained to me from time to time. The BOP was also conducting their own investigation. So there were sort of three investigations going on at once. And it was kind of the culmination of all this information that was provided to you that led you to the judgment that it was suicide. Yes. Well, over time it became clearer and clearer to me that it was undoubtedly suicide. As I say, the video was probably the last thing I looked at or, you know, in reaching that conclusion. Do you recall reviewing any specific documents during that time period, like the coroner's report? I did review the coroner's report. I asked this, but did you review like entry and exit logs from the shu? I may have. I saw some records. I can't remember what they are. All right, we're going to wrap up right here and in the next episode, we're going to pick up what where we left off. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with Bill Barr and his deposition before Congress. Question do you recall reviewing any specific documents during that time period, like the coroner's report? Answer. I did review the coroner's report. Question did you? I asked this. But did you review like entry and exit logs for the shoe? I may have. I saw some records. I can't remember what they were. Okay. The chief medical examiner at the time stated after examination that Epstein died by, I believe it was described as kneeling hanging. So not jumping off the top bunk, but using leverage to kind of lean forward. Does that fit your recollection bar? I remember discussing of a kneeling hanging, but I can't remember what posture he was in at the end. Question. End. Answer. They found him with his buttocks facing the Question ground. Answer ground. So I'm not sure if he was on his knees at that point. Question but you hadn't. Do you recall seeing any evidence that he jumped off the bunk or otherwise fell? Answer I think question versus just kind of and Bar cuts her off. No. I think the evidence was that he hung himself and it was essentially close to the modus operandi that he had used before being put on watch. You know, the same nooses and coming off the top and landing. In that case, he landed on his knees. Apparently it didn't work. I just have to interject here, which I hate to do when we're doing these kinds of episodes, but man, the whole entire narrative around the first supposed suicide is bunk. Absolute bs. Question Were you being kept apprised of the autopsy and its results in sort of real time? No. Question do you recall when bar that was conducted by New York? Question do you recall when you first got briefed on the autopsy? Answer well, I heard about it pretty soon after it came out. Question and at that point it kind of confirmed to you that the medical examiner ruled it a suicide? Answer by Bar Yes. And the fact that there were, I mean, I think not only that ruling, but the fact that there was no sign of a struggle. I mean, he was a fairly large guy and the idea that people would go in there and hang him in that way with numerous nooses being tied and so forth without any sign of scuffle was not plausible. Question yeah, I think I remember. I don't remember which investigation it was in, but I remember reading like, no, you know, skin or fibers under his fingernails? There was none. No, like scratch marks, anything? No. Contusions? Any kind of defensive marks? None. Is that similar to your bar? Yes. Recollection? Yes. I believe Mr. Epstein's brother hired a medical witness to review the autopsy. Answer. Right. Question the examiner report named Dr. Michael Baden. Answer yes, I see him occasionally on TV. I've seen him. He frequently comes into these kinds of situations. Question I believe he was described as an expert medical witness in high profile cases. So. Answer huh. Question Take with that what you will. Yes, but do you recall Dr. Baden being involved at the time? I remember just reading news coverage. Well, he came in after, I believe after the autopsy, reached his conclusions, and he offered another view of it. And I remember press reports to that effect. His view, which is contrary to the medical examiner's. And again, I will say that he is an expert medical witness, not a medical examiner. Yes, he is. Yes, he is. In fact, Michael Baden has more experience than anybody that they had on their team at the time. So do it that what you will. He's a medical witness, not a medical examiner. But that Epstein had fractures to his larynx. And I believe it was three fractures. Three different fractures to his hyoid bone in his neck. And that was described as extremely unusual in suicidal hangings and more consistent with homicidal strangulation. Do you recall any conversations about Mr. Bodden's report within the department or with the FBI? I remember conversations about it, commenting on it. Did anyone agree with Mr. Baden's finding? No. I mean, no one expressed agreement during any of my conversations. No one expressed disagreement to you, did you understanding the evidence and what it was and information was flowing really quickly. Did you ever see any evidence that suggested Mr. Epstein's death was a homicide? Answer no. On the contrary. I think when you look at the accumulation of the evidence, including the testimony of individuals, his state of mind, you know, the whole thing, the process, you know, one of the things that impressed me was that it would have required, it would have required people. It wasn't known until 8 o' clock that morning, I believe that, that his cellmate was gone. And it wasn't even clear during the day whether he'd get a replacement. So there wasn't much time for people to understand that he was going to be by himself. Very, very little time. And this would have required coordination from probably two dozen people, maybe within the prison. Okay, full stop. Why was Nicholas Dartaglione in the cell with Jeffrey Epstein the first time around after Nicholas Dartaglione was already found with contraband in the his cell while he was facing four homicides. Furthermore, we have no idea who was in that jail cell or in those cells that were next to Jeffrey Epstein in the shoe. Nobody's ever come out and said anything. So could somebody have been planted in there previously to do this? We got a whole ass rabbit hole still to jump down. But it's always surface level with these people, right? They never want to get to the actual story. And all these people were in different groups, you know, the people who were repairing the cameras, the people who, you know, were responsible for opening and closing the door, the people who were responsible for putting in a new cellmate, things like that. For all that to be coordinated, it would have required, I think, as I say, maybe two dozen people. Question. Uh huh. So kind of, and I'm not, I don't mean to be testifying, but like in summary, kind of between a state of mind but previous suicide attempt and the process in place, in addition to the coordination it would take to override those processes all pointed towards A suicide. Answer by Bar Absolutely. Even before you go to the physical possibility of getting into the shoe and getting up in his cell. Question. All right, Bar and the fact that there are eyewitnesses on that very tier, other prisoners, including two right across the way, who saw no one go in that night. Okay, so let's hear from them. Bring them in front of Congress. We're just gonna take Bill Barr's word for it. You see, here's my big problem, folks. I don't trust any of these people, so them telling me something is not gonna cut it. Let's see the evidence. Question. And they said they never heard the door open. Answer. Right. Question. And things like that. To your knowledge, did the FBI ever investigate Epstein's death as a homicide? Answer, to my knowledge, no. Question. Do you know if anyone investigated? Answer. I think they investigated to determine whether it was a homicide, but I don't think they ever, you know, got to the point of feeling that this was a homicide. Question they never. The evidence Bar cuts her off. I mean, it was a homicide or, I mean, a suicide. Question, yeah. Answer yeah. Question the kind of evidence never swung to more probable. Answer. No. Question. Do you recall anyone investigating it as a homicide that you were aware of? Answer no. I don't think anyone got to the point of feeling that it was a murder. Well, that's a problem right there, because any death that happens inside of a jail is considered a homicide. Until an investigation cracks off, they don't know what happened, so they can't rule it out as a homicide. So it's a homicide investigation. Right. Going back to Dr. Baden, just very briefly, I know that you said you recalled. Generally, you recalled conversations regarding his contrary findings. Do you recall having any conversations about Mr. Epstein's broken larynx and hyoid bones outside of Dr. Baden's findings? I think I heard it discussed within the department. And to the best of your recollection, the discussions were that it was still consistent with suicidal hanging, that they said they believed the medical examiner was correct. And then. You already said this, but I want to ask it explicitly. You instructed the IG to open the investigation? Yes. As soon as I got off the phone with my chief of staff, I believe he contacted. I asked him to contact the IG immediately. I know that they are very familiar with Bureau of Prisons and its processes, and I was told that he had people up in New York who. Who could get to the prison right away.

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[Host (Possibly Dave)]

and ways to save Question and then we've talked about Mr. Epstein's state of mind an awful lot and you said that you or someone reviewed kind of the psychologist notes from the previous suicide attempt, the reports that are associated with taking an individual off suicide watch. Do you recall any other evidence regarding what you reviewed regarding his state of mind, Mr. Epstein? State of mind well, you know, I was aware that, you know, he had tried suicide, which I viewed as an attempted suicide. He had done his last will and testament right before. When did you become aware of that one? Sometime during the period where I was absorbing information. I can't pinpoint it, but there was a period of time where things were being learned and I was finding out about them if they were pertinent. And he his efforts to get Bell had failed. So he was looking at a period of time of incarceration in that place, which I think for him was very difficult just to point out. Epstein's lawyers tell us something completely different. And I do remember the buzz that was caused that Friday, I believe by the release of documents by the court that had a lot of salacious material in there about prominent individuals and so forth. And that caused quite a stir. And so I think that my judgment was that this sort of set the stage for and was and he made the call to his girlfriend. Apparently. I found out early that he that procedures were not followed and that he was allowed to make an unmonitored call to a woman who I believe in Belarusia and who was his I understood to be or believe to be his girlfriend at the time. And he made a call to her at that point. So it seemed important for him to make a call to her that evening. So let's bring her in and let's talk to her. Let's talk to Dr. Baden. But no, they won't do it, will they? And so putting these together, I think it was consistent with suicide question and then during answer he cuts her off just as to just as to his state of mind. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here and in the next episode we're going to pick up where we left off. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.

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