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The Epstein Chronicles
Mega Edition: Johanna Sjoberg's Deposition In The Maxwell/Virginia Roberts Suit (Part 4-6) (5/24/26)
00:43:16
In her deposition in the defamation lawsuit filed by Virginia Giuffre against Ghislaine Maxwell, Johanna Sjoberg described being recruited to work for Jeffrey Epstein under the impression that it was a legitimate job opportunity. According to her...
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Visit your nearby Lowes. What's up, everyone? And welcome back to the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna dive right back in to the Joanna Schoberg deposition and pick up where we left off with Laura Menninger taking over the questioning. So they go back on the record at 1014 and things kick back off. Hi answer from Schoberg. Hello. We've never met before today. Correct? Correct. Can you tell me a little bit about your current job? Sure. I just purchased a salon. I'm a salon owner. I'm a hairstylist. Congratulations. Thank you. How long have you been a hairstylist? For 10 years. And what did you do before that? I briefly did massage in a spa for. For about a year and a half. And before that? I was a nanny. And before that? I was in school. And I believe you said you studied psychology in school. Correct. Did you graduate? Yes. With a degree in psychology? Yes. Where did you get training to be a massage therapist? Redacted. And when did you do that? That. That would have been, I believe, in Menninger. And how long did you study there? I think it was a six month program. And you worked in a spa thereafter? I did. And what was the name of the spa again? And are you married? No. Do you have children? No. Manager. And how old are you now? Can you tell me about your first meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell? Sure. I was sitting on a bench. Redacted. Redacted. She approached me. I was getting ready to go to a class. It was my junior year. Yes. It was my second semester of my junior year and she and another woman Approached me. The other woman didn't speak, that I recall. And she asked me about. She had a house in Palm beach, and she was looking for someone that. That she could hire to work at the house where she could post that she needed help. She then asked me if I knew anyone, and I didn't know who she was. I didn't want to take the responsibility of finding someone to work for. And so I said, sorry, I don't. And then she said, well, maybe. What about you? And I was at a point in my life I was super spontaneous and willing to skip school. So she said, come to my house. Come in my car and check it out. And so I did. Okay. So for those of you who don't know, is this like a college campus, like a traditional college campus, or is it in a city setting? It's in a city setting. I mean, Palm beach is not a big city. So it's on the Intracoastal, and there was a big grassy area that was surrounded by buildings. So she was inside of the campus and she was looking for a bulletin board where she could post a job? Something like that, yes. Did she have any kind of flyers? Not that I recall. But that's what she asked you for? Directions to a bulletin board where she could post a job? Yes. Meninger. And it sounds like you guys got into a conversation. Is that fair? Yes. Can you describe Ghislaine Maxwell's personality? Well, I instantly picked up on the fact that she was British. She had on, like, workout clothes, I believe she was wearing, all black. And she. I mean, she was a little snarky, but I felt comfortable enough to get in the car with her. And it sounds like you had contact with her over the next several years. Is that fair? Yes. And did you get to know more about her personality over those five years? Four or five years, yes. And can you describe for me how you observed her personality? To be sure. She definitely had a great sense of humor. She loved making jokes. I mean, in a very British way. I don't remember her ever laughing, but she was funny. And I remember just thinking she. The first weekend that we flew to the Virgin Islands, she flew the helicopter from Saint. Wherever we were to Little Saint Jeff or whatever the name of the island was. And I just thought, wow, who is this woman? And that was all part of the facade, folks. Having Maxwell be who she was was just a gigantic part of what Epstein had going on. And if she wasn't that kind of socialite, that kind of woman that could get people comfortable. This operation Would have never worked as well as it did. Menninger, would you say that you respected her? Yes. Menninger. What? When you ended up getting in the car with her and this other woman and going back to the house, who was driving the car? She was driving. And where did she take you? She took me to the house in Palm Beach. And can you describe the house in Palm Beach? Sure. It's at the end of El Brio Way on the Intracoastal. The house was either white or pink. It was pink at one time. It may have ever been painted. It. It was nothing fancy. It was large. It was like a beach house. And when you got there, do you remember meeting other people while you were there that first time? I remember other people being in the home. I don't really remember who was there. Do you remember meeting, like, a butler or potentially a chef? Someone in the kitchen, maybe a house manager? Yeah. What was your impression of this other woman that was with Ms. Maxwell at the time? Zero. She left zero impression on me. Age, height, hair color? Nothing. I want to say she was brunette. Age, twenties? Yeah. And you were going for the purpose of checking out, potentially working for this job? Yes. And it sounds like you met Jeffrey Epstein that first time that. That you did go to the house, right, McCauley? Objection. I believe I either met him that time or the next time. I can't recall. Okay. And tell me about your first meeting with him. Sure. I met him. I believe it was in the hallway right beside the kitchen. There was a hallway? It was actually more like a room, a pantry type of room. That's where all the pieces of paper with the phone messages would lay. And there she's talking about the notepads that we've talked about at length here during the depositions. And I remember sitting on the counter and speaking with him, and he was in a bathrobe. And he spoke with me about being in college and studying psychology. And did you form an opinion of him in that first meeting? I. Yeah, I believe that he was smart, he was personable and could speak to anyone. Did he give off any sexual vibes in that first meeting? No. And where was Ghislaine when you were speaking with Mr. Epstein? I don't recall. Do you recall going to a second floor of the home during that first meeting? I don't recall. Ghislaine said at one point, you might get a massage today. That was. Sorry. That was the second time when I was in the home working, and I just thought it was crazy that I would get a Massage while I was working, but it did not end up happening because the masseuse could not stay. Do you know who the masseuse was who could not stay? No, but that didn't happen on the first meeting. You believe that it was the second meeting? Yes, that was when I was there to work. How long. How long did the first trip to the house end? She gave me her phone number, and she took my phone number and. And she took me back to school. And you were full time at school at the time? Yes. And how many classes were you taking, if you remember? Probably four or five. How did you. How long was it before you heard from Ms. Maxwell again? Within probably three days. And how did she contact you? She called me on my. At the time, I had a cell phone. It could have been on my cell phone. It could have been on my house phone. We had a house phone back then. I remember. Where were you living at the time? I was in an apartment in West Palm Beach. And did you have a roommate or with family? I had a roommate. So when Ms. Maxwell called you on whatever phone it was, do you remember what she said? Yeah, she said, do you want to come over and work on Sunday? What did you say? I said, sure. And did you? I did. How did you get there? That I don't recall, because I did not have a car. Did you to this? I think my roommate dropped me off. Honestly, I can remember what I was wearing. You do? Manager asks. I do, she answers. Menninger, what were you wearing? I had. I still have the shirt. It's an old, weathered blue North Carolina Tech Tar Heel shirt. Manager. Because you did Ms. Maxwell explain to you what you would be doing on that Sunday when you came to work, or was that part of the prior conversation? Objection. About what I was wearing? No, about what you were going to do at work. She explained that she just wanted someone to help out around the house, answering phones, you know, grabbing drinks if someone wanted a drink, running errands. And so you dressed appropriate to what you believed. She interrupts her here. Uh, Sjoberg. I did not know how to dress properly. Apparently, I should not have worn that, but I was in college. Did anyone say anything to you? No. So when you got there, what happened? This is your second time to the house, but your first time working, right? Yes. I was probably introduced to a few people that were there. I mean, I was there for several hours. Do I recall every minute? No, I just recall when I would actually have to go to work, answer the phone, pour some drinks for people, just Water. They didn't drink alcohol and run errands? There are a few errands that I run. You described those errands earlier. I did. In her car. You used her car? Yes. What kind of car was. Was a Mercedes convertible. Did anyone go with you? No. You described a shopping trip. Was that in the same car? Yes. Menninger, was that a separate trip from when you went to run errands? Yes, that's when Ghislaine went with me and she drove. Okay, so you ran errands, came back more than once? Answer twice. And then you. You went on a shopping trip? Yes. During the time you were at the home, was there anything that made you suspicious? No. Leary? No. You mentioned that there may have been some discussion of a massage. Do you recall that discussion? I had never had a massage before. So she just said there was a massage therapist coming and I may get one manager. Did she say who it was? No. So when you went shopping on this trip, you said Ghislaine drove the car and you went with her. Was anyone else there? No. And where did you all go? We went to Worth Avenue in Palm beach, but because it was Sunday, the stores were closed. So from there we went to, I believe it was Palm Beach Daily News, which was like a little bookstore. And I remember her purchasing reading glasses for Jeffrey and. And some magazines. Were those things for the home? Yes. And earlier on your errands, you had been purchasing things for the home or the office? Yes. And yes. Besides the printer cartridge, ink cartridge, do you remember anything else? Well, yes, like they wanted specific magazines. I don't know if it was like Scientific American or something to that effect. It wasn't like Playboy. Okay. Did you ever answer phones? Yes. When did you answer phones? That day. Do you remember anything notable about the phone calls? I just remember I always had to say, he's unavailable. Can I take a message? And where did you take a message? On a little notepad next to the phone. Do you recall any small children calling the house that day?
- [13:51]
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Seelowes.com for details visit your nearby Lowes. I drive my bus in a busy city. That's why road safety is so important to me. I know that I must slow down and be extra careful when I make a wide turn. Buses need more room than cars. Everyone can help keep our roads safe. Next time you're driving, remember to give buses plenty of time and space to finish turning before driving ahead. Let's all plan to share the road safely. Learn how at www.sharetherodesafely.gov no manager were you speaking to anyone about their school experience or anything like that? No. Did you take any messages for famous people? They could have been famous and I would have been clueless. Manager did you take messages at any other point during the time that you worked for Jeffrey? No. And you said you remember at the end of the day being paid by Ghislaine? Yes. And you were paid for doing errands and answering phones and whatever else you did? Yes. Macaulay Objection. Did you do anything else that day in terms of errands or things around the house that you remember? Not that I recall. Did you come back to answer phones and do errands any other day? No. That was the only day you did it? Yes. Alright folks, we're gonna wrap up right there and in the next episode, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up everyone? And welcome back to the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking up where we left off with a Johannes Sjoberg deposition. So let's dive right back in. Alright, tell me the second time. How long was it before you got another sort of contact from anybody at the home? Okay. Well, after that, I remember actually that day of working, I sat with Ghislaine outside on this outside table I on the patio by the pool. I told her that I was getting ready to go to Nicaragua for spring break on a mission trip. I remember her going, why would you ever go to Nicaragua? So I was going to be gone for the next week for spring break. So she called after I returned and asked if I wanted to make $100 an hour, rubbing feet. Was that the whole conversation? That was pretty much it. Ok, sure. Tell me when. And you were excited about the prospect of rubbing feet and making 100 bucks? I was actually with. While I was on the trip in Nicaragua, I was rubbing feet. I was massaging people their feet. So it just seemed kind of crazy that it all happened at the same time. How was it rubbing feet? I guess I just like doing it. I didn't know that I did, but I was massaging people's feet. Manager Were these strangers? Answer no, no, no, no, no. They were. It was a group of us that went on the trip, so we were all very close. Manager what kind of trip was it? Answer it was a. Well, pba. You had to do these things called workshop hours, which you had to do community service, 40 hours each year. And so that was the way to do them all. And you would go on these trips and help build a school or. Or feed children or do some sort of something nice. Nice. What other trips did you take while you were there? I did a trip and worked with Habitat for Humanity in Baltimore, and then I went back to Nicaragua the next year and did the same thing. Very nice. And you were there for a whole week? Yes. All right. So you got a call from Ghislaine I. After you returned? Yes. And that's when she asked you about feet? Yes. And did she tell you when she would like you to come over? It was either that night or the next day. And do you know how you got there? No. Do you know what you were wearing? No, I don't remember. When you got there? I think you said you don't remember if Ghislaine was actually there the second time. I want to believe that she was there because she was my main contact. And so I would assume that she was probably at the home and greeted me. However, I do not recall if she was there. It sounds like you met Emmy Taylor. Yes. How did you meet Emmy Taylor? She was at the house the first day that I worked running errands, and I realized she was also a personal assistant type of person. Do you know who she worked for? She. Well, Ghislaine. It appeared to me that she worked for Ghislaine. Ghislaine sort of told her what to do and where to go. And I believe you mentioned she called her her slave. She did. It was in a joking way, but she said, yes, that's my slave. You did not see her in any type of slavery situation? Not any change or anything of the sort? No. So Tell what you remember about the second time you went. The third time, Ms. McAuley. Objection. I'm sorry, you're right. Third time. The second time you went to work, but the third time you were there. Correct. So I was escorted up to the bathroom, which is where 99% of the massages happened. And Emmy Taylor was there with me and Jeffrey. I don't remember the order, but Emmy was on the table. At one point she took off all of her clothes, got on the table. I remember thinking, okay, she's just going to strip naked and get on the table. Well, that's cool. We're cool. That's what we do. And Jeffrey was showing me how to massage on her body. And when I took my clothes off and got on the table and they then showed me what it felt like with the both of them. And then Jeffrey got on the table and Emmy showed me how to massage. Manager. So Ghislaine was not in the room? No. Managers, you said that 99% of the massages took place in the bathroom. Did you see massages take place in other places of the house at all? Did I see any? No. Besides us maybe hanging out on the couch and someone massaging his foot or me massaging his foot, but not like on a table. So just casual foot rubbing might happen elsewhere in the home, but not a full blown full body massage. McCauley. Objection. The witness answer is yes. Meninger, did you see any full blown full body massages out by the pool? Not that I recall. And do you remember ever giving any yourself by the pool? Out by the pool? Yes. On a table? Yes. You said that you had subsequently been trained as a massage therapist, correct? Correct. Would you describe it as a normal massage protocol for a person to be naked under a towel during a massage, a regular massage? Objection. Naked under a towel during a massage, the person getting massaged? Yes. Yeah. And as a massage therapist, you're trained how to drape the person so that they're covered in the right places, correct? Yes. So when you were being trained by Emmy and Jeffrey on some massage techniques, did anyone say anything sexual during the conversation? Not that I recall. What was the mood like? Was it, you know, laughing? Yes. Comfortable. And just to clarify, the people who were giving the massages at the various points in time were clothed while they were doing that, correct? Miss? Objection. In this period you just described with Emmy Taylor and Jeffrey in a bathroom upstairs on your third visit to the home, people giving the massages had their clothes on, correct? Correct. Menninger. Alright, what was the next Time you remember coming to the house. There. The next time was to do a massage all by myself. Ok. And how did that one come about? Hmm. Someone must have called me, but I don't remember who. And to whom did you give the massage on this next visit to the house? Jeffrey, was Ghislaine present during that massage? No. Did anything unusual occur during that massage? After. What happened after the massage, he asked me, how well do I orgasm? And I said, I don't. I'm a virgin. And he was quite surprised. Where were you when you were having this discussion? In the bathroom. Were you clothed? Yes. Was he clothed? I don't remember him being naked. He was probably either wrapped with a towel or in a bathrobe. Were you caught off guard by this question? Yes. Was that the first time anyone had said anything sexual to you during this ever? Yes. Did he say anything else that you recall during that conversation? I mean, we had a little bit of a conversation about it, but I don't recall specifically. And how did that massage encounter end? Normal. There was nothing I had to do. So just normal massage. Did he pay you? Yes. How much did he pay you? $200. How did he pay you? Cash. And where was the cash? I don't recall specifically. It was either he brought it upstairs with him or. Or it would have been down on his desk. And I'm assuming that you had other massages that you gave under similar circumstances in the next years, right? Many. Right. So recalling this particular one is not sticking out in your mind? Yes. Objection. Do you remember the next time after that? I don't. I mean, from there it's just a blur of random invites to come over and and do it. Massage was like I would see him maybe three days in a row and then I wouldn't see him for two months. It was an irregular schedule. Manager, do you ever recall a time where you came over every day for three weeks in a row? No. Were you paid $200 per massage? Yes. And how long did the massage last? Anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour and a half. Did you ever give a four hour massage to him? Good grief, no. Not that I recall. Have you ever given a four hour massage to anyone in your whole life? No, I have not. Tell me how the whole idea of traveling to New York came up. I actually was not home. They called my apartment. My roommate answered when I got home. She said, you need to call Jeffrey Epstein immediately. He wants to take you to New York. But they are leaving at 4. And I was excited because I had never been To New York. Meninger, are you from. I am. But you never went to New York, Just flying over it. When you said they called, do you know who called your roommate? I don't know who called my roommate. Is this sort of pre trip to New York, period? Do you recall discussing any of the particulars of your massage with Jeffrey? With Ghislaine? Objection. Manager if that makes sense. No. So before you got this call, had anyone mentioned the idea of traveling to you? No. Did you call Jeffrey immediately? I did. And what conversation did you have with him? Basically he said, I want to take you to New York City. Can you be here quickly? And I got to the house and he said, do you have a passport? I said, no. He said, go get it. So I went back and picked up my passport and went back to his house before we went to the airport. Manager and why did you need your passport? I was ready to find out. I had no idea. This was the spontaneous phase. Exactly. So you went and got your passport. You. You came back and then what happened? Then we went to the airport. And who is we? So I don't remember the ride to the airport, but the people that I recall being on the plane was Jeffrey, Ghislaine, Virginia and I. And was the first time you met Virginia? I believe it was that day. In your previous visits to the house, had you seen her there? Not that I recall. And what was your impression the first day you met her? She seemed young and blonde and cute. What was her personality like? I honestly don't recall her personality.
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Bubbly did you see her in the plane or on the trip to New York, engaged in any kind of affectionate or sexual contact with Jeffrey? No. Menninger? With Ghislaine? No. How did it come to be that you were in a casino in Atlantic City? We, as we were flying, Jeffrey said, why don't you go sit in the cockpit to check out the landing? So we were sitting there and the pilots told me to go back and tell him that we can't land in New York and that we were going to have to land in Atlantic City. Jeffrey said, great, we'll call up Trump and we'll go to. I don't recall the name of the casino, but we'll go to the casino. And what happened with the ID issue? McCauley? Objection. Schoberg goes on to answer. All I knew is that she was not going to be allowed to gamble. And so I spent time with her. We were just walking around. I don't remember what we did because either she didn't have an ID or she was too young. I don't remember specifically why. I just remember that she could not gamble. Ok, so you just walked around with her in Atlantic City? Uh huh. In the casinos? We never left the casino. Were you disappointed that you couldn't gamble? No. When you were walking around and talking to her, did you learn anything about her? Not that I recall. Did you have an impression about why she was on the trip at that point? No. I was so new to the whole thing. I was just trying to figure out my position and who everybody was at that point I had no idea. I didn't know anything sexual. Was happening at all. So I just felt like she was just another visitor. Menninger, did she tell you at that time that she had been to New York with Jeffrey before? Not that I recall. Did she tell you anything about Ghislaine during that walkabout? No. And then you all traveled to New York on that same night? Yes. How long were you in New York for on that visit? It was maybe two nights. Where did you sleep at night? I slept in one of the guest rooms at his townhouse at 71st Street. Did you stay in the same room as Virginia? No. Do you know where she stayed? No. Alright, folks, we're gonna wrap up this episode right here. And in the next episode on the topic, we'll pick up where we left off. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome back to the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna pick up where we left off with a Johanna Sjoberg deposition. So let's just dive right back in and pick up where we left off. And then when you got into Manhattan, how did it come to be that you were doing some sightseeing? Well, they knew that I had never been, so I believe Jeffrey asked the driver and Emmy just to drive me around to see the Empire State Building. That's all I remember. It was late, it was dark. It wasn't long, maybe 30 minutes. Menninger, when you got back to the house, what happened? I walked in the front door and Ghislaine stuck her head over the grand staircase and asked me to come upstairs into the living room. And can you describe the living room? Oh, it was very large and very formal. And Jeffrey and her and Virginia and Prince Andrew were there. And what were they all doing when you came in? Just socializing. I don't remember them doing an activity. It was just being together. Was anyone unclothed? No. Was this the same room where Jeffrey had a desk? It could have been, but I can't remember. Did you go to New York more than one time? Yes. How many times did you go to New York? Two times. This was the only time that you met Prince Andrew in New York, though? Yes. When you came upstairs, where was Virginia sitting? I don't remember. Do you remember what she was wearing? No. She was already there when you got back from sightseeing? Yes. Tell me what happened with the caricature? Ghislaine asked me to come to a closet. She just said, come with me. We went to a closet and grabbed the puppet and the Puppet of Prince Andrew. And I knew it was Prince Andrew because I had recognized him as a person. I didn't know who he was. And so when I saw the tag that said Prince Andrew, then it clicked. I'm like, that's who it is. And we went down, back down to the living room, and she brought it in. It was just funny because he thought it was funny because it was of him. Tell me how it came to be that there was a picture taken. Macaulay. Objection. I just remember someone suggesting a photo. And. And they told us to get on the couch. And so Andrew and Virginia sat on the couch and they put the puppet. The puppet on her lap. And so then I sat on Andrew's lap and I believe on my own volition. And they took the puppet's hands and put it on Virginia's breast. And so Andrew put his on mine. Menninger. And this was done in a joking manner. McCauley. Objection. Yes. Menninger. Do you recall a photo being taken of that event? Yes. You've never seen that photo? No. You don't know whose camera it was? No. Virginia was sitting on a couch next to Andrew. Not in a big leather armchair, Maybe. I'm just trying to remember how I remember it. To the best of your recollection, you went and sat on Andrew's lap, correct? Yes. On his knee? Yes. Menninger. And Virginia was not sitting on his knee, Correct? I don't recall. I just remember I was. She might have been on his other knee, like Santa. I don't remember after that. Do you remember any other pieces of that social engagement? No. Do you know where you went from there? I went to bed. Were people drinking? No. Did you hear Ghislaine Maxwell tell Virginia to do anything while you were in that room? No. Do you recall what happened the next day in New York? Bits. I mean, that was the day I went to Victoria's Secret. I went and walked around by myself and I went to a souvenir shop and got a mug or something. That's all I recall. Did you go anywhere with Virginia? Oh, my gosh, yes. We went to Phantom of the Opera. Who else went? I think it was just she and I. I forgot about that. Thank you for that memory. It's my job. Anything else you remember about that day in New York? No. You said you had given a massage to Jeffrey while they were on their trip. Or was it a subsequent trip? That trip. And how did that come to be? Either he or somebody asked me to go and do it. Someone showed me to the room, but I don't remember who it was. Can you describe that room? Yes, it was a high ceiling, dark red walls or dark blue walls or dark blue carpeting or something. It had a massage table set up in the middle and there was a large, I want to say like a 15 foot photo. Either photo or painting of a naked girl. Pornographic or artistic? No, no, I wouldn't say pornographic. More artistic. Was Ghislaine present during the massage? No. Did something about that particular massage session stand out to you? Yes, that was when I first was asked to squeeze and rub his nipples while he pleasured himself. And did he say that's what he was going to do? He. Yes, he was just very blunt about it. He said, rub my nipples, I'm going to jerk off. I was like, no, done. And you walked out? I did. Were there any repercussions for you walking out? Amazingly, no. Knowing what I know now, I'm surprised I was ever called back. But no, I just stood my ground and walked out. I'm not comfortable with that. Do you know personally whether anyone else has said that to him? No. Did anyone ever tell you that they had been in a massage scenario and told him no? No. Do you recall when in your trip the massage occurred? Well, it was not the day we landed. It must have been the next day that we were there. Do you remember anything else about Virginia from that trip other than Prince Andrew thing and the Phantom of the Opera? Well, we were getting ready to leave to go to the airport and we were waiting. She and I sat on the steps in the foyer. I do remember just kind of asking a few questions to try to understand her role, because at that point now I knew what he wanted from me in the massage and. But she did not make it clear to me that she was participating in that. So I was prodding gently to see if there was anything happening that shouldn't have been, because I was getting the impression that she was. She told me she was 17. She told you she was 17? Uh huh. How did that come up? I asked, was anyone else present during the conversation? No. You mentioned in your earlier testimony that she seemed orphan, like. Yes. But you said that was something you had said to Ms. McCauley, correct? Correct. That was not said at the time, Right? No, at the time I was getting an impression that she did not have a family or had walked away from her family. And it seemed to me, you know, they had just sort of adopted her. Not as a child, but they would take care of her. Did you observe anyone speaking to her as a child, like make up your bed? No. Did you observe whether she was using drugs during. During that trip? No. Objection. Did you ever observe her using drugs? Not that I recall. Did she ever tell you that she was using Xanax? No, manager. Cocaine? No, manager. Ecstasy? No, manager. Heroin? No, manager. When was the second trip you took to New York? Maybe 2005. I don't know. I could look in the flight record. That's alright. I don't remember exactly. Just recall it being several years. So after. Yes, several years later. And just so I'm clear, can you just list for me the places you recall traveling with Jeffrey? Yes. The first trip was New York and the Virgin Islands. And then not again in. Until around 2005. We went to New Mexico and to New York City and the Virgin Islands. So you were in New York twice and the Virgin Islands twice and New Mexico once? Yes. Anywhere else? No. Were those primarily on the private planes? Yes. You said you flew commercially once to get back? Yes. Do you recall any other commercial flights? He bought a couple of flights for me when I wanted to go to New York for personal reasons. One time I went to New York commercially and I was there with friends. But I did go over to his house while I was staying in the city. And that's not the trip to New York? No, separate. Would you characterize your relationship with Jeffrey as friendly? Objection. Witness? Yes. If you asked him to buy you a ticket to New York, that might be something that he would do. I never asked him to do anything for me. But I told him I was interested in something. And he always offered the second trip to New York. Anything memorable about that? The one. I'm sorry, the one that you mentioned that was with Jeffrey. I do recall Nadia being there while I massaged. She gave him a facial, but nothing sexual happened. And do you recall if Ghislaine was part of that trip or not? I remember her being in New Mexico. What do you remember about her being in New Mexico? I remember she took me to. When they were building the ranch. They had a little three bedroom home, just like a prefab house. She took me over there, so we went for a little walk. I remember she had two new puppies named Max and Minnie. Little Yorkies. And I want to say that it was around Jeffrey's birthday when. When we were there. But nothing. There was no like celebration or cake with candles. It was just another day. You said the Virgin Islands were a part of that second trip as well? Yes. And do you remember Ghislaine being part of the Virgin Islands. The second time, yes. That's when she called, went to bed and kissed us all on the head and called us, her children. Who were the other participants in that session? That's who. I don't recall. Who was there? I want to say that Nadia was, but Virginia was not there. Virginia was not there.
- [43:35]
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Visit your nearby Lowes Menninger do you recall the point in time in which Virginia went away? Answer Sort of. After the trip to New York, I was given her phone number to call and I remember one time I tried to get a hold of her. Her boyfriend answered. A boyfriend, I would assume. And he sounded like he was high and I couldn't find out where she was. And then from there she was out of the picture. Do you recall how long after the New York trip that occurred? I would say it was probably within a month or two. Did she tell you she was working elsewhere? No. Did you ask her? No. Did you mention that she was a waitress? No. And worked at Taco Bell? Uh huh. Did you speak to her boyfriend or a boyfriend at any other time associated with her? No. Did you meet her boyfriend? No. Her? No. Objection. When you were on the plane with Jeffrey Epstein during these two trips, he was present on all of those flights? Yes. Did you observe any sexual behavior happening on the plane? No. He told me a story of something that happened one time. Did it involve Ghislaine Maxwell? No. Did it involve Virginia Roberts? No. And you didn't see anything? No. You did give massages to Glayne Maxwell, correct? Yes. On how many occasions? Maybe somewhere between five and ten. Was that over the course of the five years? Yes. Was there some point during that five Years where Ghislaine Maxwell was not around as much? Yes. Do you recall when that was in the middle? Did you know why that might be? No. Is that about the time that you started seeing Nadia more frequently? Yeah, I guess she was probably in the picture more. Her and Sarah both had kind of been around the most. Did you observe Nadia appearing to act like Jeffrey's girlfriend? Nadia, not Sarah, what did you observe? She was just very loving, kissing him. Did you know how old she was? I didn't know. So you gave massages to Ghislaine five or ten times. Was there anything unusual about those massages? And just to add here, Nadia Marcinkova allegedly was sold to Jeffrey Epstein when she was just a little girl. So that's a whole other story that at some point is going to come out. You've been quoted in the press perhaps as saying that she wasn't very picky answer about massage Menninger, about her massages. Not like Jeffrey, I guess. I mean, saying that meant that, you know, I, I would do whatever I wanted to do in the massage, whereas Jeffrey was like, do my foot, do my leg. He would kind of narrate what he wanted. She just wanted a massage. So if that makes sense, she may have been naked under a towel, definitely in a regular massage fashion. Objection. Yes, actually I do recall an instance where I was massaging her and Jeffrey came into the room and. And he did something sort of sexual to her, whether it was fondling her or slapping her butt or something. And she brushed him off like she was embarrassed. So she never asked you to touch her in a sexual manner, Correct? No. And she did not rub her breasts on you, for example? No. Objection. Did she demand that you perform oral sex on her? No. Did she not demand that you undress during your massage? No. There was nothing from her that was sexual during the massage that you gave her? Objection. And then. Correct. Do you recall when was the last time you gave her a massage? I don't recall. Alright, folks, we're gonna wrap up that episode right here. And in the next episode we'll pick up where we left off. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.
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