← The Epstein Chronicles
The Epstein Chronicles
Mega Edition: MCC Captain's Statement Detailing The Death Of Jeffrey Epstein (Part 1-3) (6/13/26)
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This deposition comes from an unnamed captain at the Metropolitan Correctional Center and provides a detailed account of how Jeffrey Epstein was managed inside the facility, particularly in the Special Housing Unit. The captain describes Epstein’s...
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What's up everyone and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. As we continue to explore the death of Jeffrey Epstein, we have another deposition from a staff member from mcc. However, we have no idea who this person is. All that we know is that they're a Captain. So we're gonna skip the part where they explain all the stuff about their military service previously and what they were doing before they joined the Bureau of Prisons. And we're gonna pick up with a conversation as they start discussing this captain and his time at the mcc. Question Great. And when did you graduate from BOP training down at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center? Question I believe it was redacted. Question okay, we don't have to go through it or I guess just briefly, I mean, what positions have you held with the bop? You don't have to go into each institution. Answer Right. I started as five step one I have with more responsibility. I was promoted to a through six seven senior officer specialist. I was also a GL9 a lieutenant GL11 lieutenant I was a deputy captain GL12. I was also GL13 and currently I am at GL12 redacted at FCI Fort Dix. Question all right, great. And is it correct that you used to work at the MCC in New York City? Answer that's correct. Question all right. And what were your positions when you were at the mcc? Answer MCC I was the Captain. Question okay, and from what dates were you the captain. Question or answer Excuse me. I was the captain from September of, I believe it was the third, 2018 all the way until June 25th of 2020. Question okay, great. And then was that your first assignment as a captain? Answer My first assignment as a captain was I was a deputy captain at MDC Brooklyn. Question okay, and then you got promoted and went to mcc? Yeah. And what does the MCC stand for? The Metropolitan Correctional Center. Perfect. And located at 150 Park Row, New York, New York. That's correct. Thank you, sir. And as a captain, who would you consider your supervisor when you were at the mcc? It would be at that point at that time when we were transitioning. Question okay, Answer so I would normally I would say to two people which would be the AW of custody, which at that time was redacted. However, he was transitioning when the incident happened, it was redacted. Was the AW over custody at that time? Question all right, so when you're talking about that time, are you talking about August 9th and August 10th of 2019? Answer that's correct. Question okay, so are you aware of redacted was still the AW in charge of custody at the time? Answer no. Question she was not okay. Answer no, basically what it was again with the area of responsibility, it had changed prior to this incident. So that week Redacted was going to be even though her responsibility had changed as EAW over custody and and redacted had appointed or instructed that redacted would then take over the responsibilities. But however, she was supposed to go on annual leave. Question okay. Answer so at the time Ms. Redacted was actually there as far as she was still in the capacity when the incident happened. Question okay, Answer however, again the previous question that you asked normally as my responsibility, I would notify the AW over custody and also I would have conversations with the warden. So it would just depend on what the situation may be. So if there was instance where I would run things through the chain from the AW to the warden and there were times that I would take direction directly from the warden. Question okay, and as far as though in this instance, if you know, being that August 9th and 10th, I believe that the first person you contacted when you were he interrupts was redacted. Question Correct. And that was because the other AW was out, is that what you're saying? Question My belief is that she was on annual leave, which was stated that we had closed out on that Friday that she would be starting annual leave. Question okay, but as the other AW was in fact your supervisor and at the time. Answer yeah. Question okay, which you just said was you went with redacted because she was on Answer that's right. Question okay, have you since learned anything about like was that not correct? Answer well, what I realized is that once the incident had occurred, redacted responded to the institution, at which time her annual leave, I believe she canceled her annual leave and she assumed her position as EAW over custody. Question all right, how do you spell her last name? This whole next section redacted Question Perfect. Thank you. All right, so is it correct that you were interviewed by agents of the FBI and the DOJ OIG back when this instance occurred in August of 2019? Answer that's correct. Question Great. I'm just going to go over the report. So that was written in response to their conversation with you. Answer okay. Question we just want to go over for accuracy as well as to fill in some gaps that we found that we just need some clarification on. So I'm just going to read it and you stop me if there's anything that you find to be inaccurate. So you began his career with the BOP in 2005. In 2014 he was transferred to the Metropolitan Detention center and MDC in Brooklyn. 2 Captain at MDC his current position where he over or sorry? Answer yeah, there's a lot missing in between there. Question yeah, yeah, so it says in Brooklyn, I missed this line. It says where he was made deputy captain in 2015. In 2018 redacted was promoted to captain at MCC, his current position. Answer well, yeah, there was a little bit missing there because yeah, I entered on duty and I started my career in redacted. However, I left redacted in redacted and that's when I went to redacted. Question okay. Answer and then from redacted to redacted. I was there to 2014 and then from 14 I left redacted to go to MDC Brooklyn. And then in 18 that's when I assume duties at MCC. Question okay, so they have so I guess you were transferred to the MDC in Brooklyn, 2014 and in 2015 was when you were promoted to deputy captain. Answer that's correct. Question okay, it says redacted directly supervises approximately redacted lieutenants. Does that compromise of all the lieutenants this was at the time was that all the lieutenants at the mcc? Answer Correct Question okay, and has approximately redacted line staff correctional officers under his purview. Answer huh. Well, when you know, when they say that, what they understand is that under correctional Services that was probably the amount of staff that was again in correctional services and as subordinate staff, however, my direct supervision would have been over. Just the redacted lieutenants. Question okay, there are. Oh, redacted lieutenants, right? I thought you were saying GS13. Gotcha. Redacted also sits on the institutions. Redacted, which also includes the warden. Redacted's primary duty is to ensure that security protocols are met by his lieutenants and and substaff and that policy guidelines are being followed as set forth by the bop. Answer Correct question Among others, redacted is responsible for the following special housing unit. Lieutenant Redacted. Is that correct? Answer Correct Question as an administrative lieutenant responsible for maintaining paperwork, etc. So when you say an administrative lieutenant here, are you saying whoever was acting in the administrative lieutenant capacity? Answer no, I wasn't. Basically administrative duties. The administrative duty falls under the appointed shoe lieutenant. The shoe lieutenant, the appointed shoe lieutenant has certain duties that have to be done daily within the unit. Not just the supervision of the line staff that work the unit, but also overall of the running unit. Meaning that ensuring that all the paperwork is done. Question okay. Answer. All security protocols are followed to ensure that inmates or run rosters to ensure that inmates are placed in the correct cells or in the proper cells to ensure that they're supposed to audit said rosters to ensure they have proper accountability of the inmates in the unit. Question so I guess what I was getting at is like how the shoe lieutenant was redacted. Was there a specific person that was the administrative Lieutenant? Yeah, the administrative lieutenant at the time was redacted. And do you happen to know how to spell that last name? It's redacted. Thank you, sir. An S.I.S. lieutenant responsible for paperwork. And who was that? Which was the lieutenant? Question and redacted common spelling. Answer yeah. Question okay. And operations in activities Lieutenants. Answer which on the day of the incident. Question yeah. And would you like to see the duty roster for August 9th and August 10th? Answer yeah. Question no. Okay. Do you know who it was? Answer so I believe the morning watch lieutenant when the incident occurred watch was lieutenant. What is her damn name? I just said her name. Question I can show you this. Answer yeah. Question so I'm showing you a duty agent roster from a daily assignment roster from Friday, August 9, 2019 as well as one from Saturday, August 10, 2019. And you can keep them in front of you for the interview just so you can. We're going to talk about people so you can reference the two Answer Right. Alright. So it appears Here it would have been redacted. Would have been the Operations Lieutenant on Saturday August 10, 2019. Question and Is it redacted? Answer Redacted. Question yeah Lane Perfect. And what time did she work from? Answer at the time the shift they were working is a different schedule. The schedule was, I believe it was 10 to 6. Question okay, so 10 to 6 on August 9 to 0600 on. On August 10. Answer that's correct. Question and then I'm assuming there was another administrative Lieutenant at the, you know, the when Epstein was discovered and I think that was a little after 6am Correct. Answer that is. Yeah, that was actually the operations Lieutenant which was redacted. Lieutenant Redacted he informed me or I guess he became aware of the incident I believe at 6:30 in the morning. Question okay, and so I already asked the operations Lieutenant it says the operations Lieutenant and the activities Lieutenant are responsible for day to day operations and maintaining order for three shifts and an emergency preparedness Lieutenant A collateral duty responsibility in the event of an emergency incident such as fires, bombs, threats, etc. So is there during these instances, was there emergency preparedness Lieutenant Answer Yes. Question who was that? Answer I believe it was Lieutenant Redacted all right folks, we're going to wrap up right here and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up everyone and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode we're going to pick up where we left off with the interview with the Captain from mcc. Question was redacted off that day though. Answer Redacted was I believe at the time his schedule of the shoe lieutenants were not working on the weekends. Answer or Question okay. Answer they work Monday through Friday. I believe it was 7:30 to 4. Question okay. Answer so redacted was on military. He was on leave. He had military leave because he had his monthly drill monthly drill that he would attend. Question okay, do you know if he was on leave both on August 9th and August 10th or August 10th? You said he wouldn't have worked but was on August 9th. Answer let me see here. Question and you can just say was he on the schedule? Answer yeah, so I mean right here I'm looking at the roster for Friday, August 9th and I believe that the shoe lieutenant post was left unassigned for that Friday. Question alright, so that would just lead us to believe he was not there. Correct Answer that's correct. He was not there. No question. Great. And would his position have been like, you know, was there someone that was placed in the acting role when he was gone? Normally, due to our staffing at MCC at that point or at that time, we tried to ensure that, you know, looking over the roster to ensure that someone was within there, the supervising unit. But again, due to the shortage of lieutenants at the time, I had to as monitoring or looking at the roster, I would try to place areas of importance. So Operations Lieutenant ensured that the activities Lieutenant was filled and at the time, that particular day, he wasn't on the roster or that post was left unassigned. Question and that post, like you said, isn't assigned on the weekends. Answer no. Question so Saturday. Great. Answer no, it's not. Question all right. Redacted Advised that his staff provide special consideration for high profile inmates if deemed appropriate and designated as such. In order to ensure an inmate is provided with proper care, the facility evaluates the inmate using several measures including mental, physical, medical, psychological and sexual assault victim or predator assessments. Since different inmates are admitted with different criteria, appropriate housing varies. Correct? All right. Redacted interacted with inmate Jeffrey Epstein on approximately three occasions at mcc, all of which Epstein maintained a pleasant demeanor. Answer Correct. Question during the first instance, Epstein asked redacted who he was and redacted responded by introducing himself and explaining his position at the jail. During another instance, redacted explained to Epstein the policy regarding meals during attorney sessions and made certain that Epstein was accommodated with water visits to the restroom, etc. So did he receive and I know it's my understanding that he was most days in with his attorneys? Answer yes. So most days from the time that attorney visitation would open, inmate Epstein was in that area primarily until it closed. Question all right, and that's where it says Epstein spent most of the day with his defense counsel and was brought down as soon as the attorney visit opened. So would that be like Monday through Friday or Monday that seven days a week? Answer that seven days a week? Question all right, so was it almost every day? Answer Every day. Question and his food was brought to him there then? Answer no. Question okay, how would you obtain his food? Answer now, as far as food I know, and like I said, it's been a while. Normally inmates do not eat while they're in visitation. Question okay. Answer they're provided water, they're provided to go to the bathroom. The inmate, you know, is afforded the meal. However, I believe that he was offered meals from the vending machine, but I'm not sure. Question okay. Answer I can't remember as far as. Because I didn't remember there was an issue with that. And I know we tried to accommodate or address it. I just can't remember what was done. Question Would the attorneys be allowed to bring in food? Answer no. Question no. Answer no, no outside food would have been allowed in. Question okay, answer so I can tell you if he was actually getting a tray during that time. I can't remember, but I do remember there were conversations that. And I know we did something in order to ensure that the inmate was provided some type of meal or whatever. I can't remember. Question sure, all right, that's fine. As far as the mentions to visits, do you remember anything about the third visit that you made with Epstein? Answer the third one. So that night on. That would be Friday, August 9th of 2019, I believe. I had worked that day close to eight. It was about eight or so. Question 8:00pm Answer 8:00pm Question okay. Answer so I was actually on my way and exited, you know, went and talked to the operations and activities lieutenants, you know, let them know I was leaving for the day. And when I reached the elevator on the third floor, inmate Epstein was being escorted out of the attorney visit by his unit manager. Question okay, and who was that? Answer which that was, I believe, redacted. At which time I, you know, I said, hello, how you doing, Mr. Epstein? And he was like, okay. So he had asked me and he said, captain, is it okay if I get a telephone call? Now, mind you, we had already discussed that when the inmate, he would reasonably attempt to always facilitate a phone call for the inmate, especially while him being housed in the shoe. So I said to the redacted. I said, redacted, Are you going to the shoe? He said, yeah. I said, well, are you going to be able to monitor the call with the inmate? And he was like, yeah, I got no problem with that. I said, well, I don't have a problem. Just make sure that you follow the protocols. And the protocol is that when the inmate is allowed to use the phone, it has to be monitored by staff and, and the number and who they're talking to has to be placed in a log. Question okay. Answer so I said, make sure that takes place. I'm good with it. So that's when I got in the elevator and I exited the institution. Question all right, so this conversation happened with redacted in front of Mr. Epstein. Answer yes, it did. Question okay, and that's the point where, okay, so did you authorize that call to be made from the shoe. Answer yes. Question Was there a certain line that they should have used? Answer yes, it's a secure line. You have two lines. You know, you can plug it in to the outgoing and then it's the jack that's just for inside of the institution calls, or you can put it into the other jack which allows those calls to be outgoing. Question Would the call have been a legal line? Answer yeah, it would be just an out. This would be an out. Question okay. Answer. Outline and they're not recorded. Is the question. Answer. Right. Question. And that's why you said make sure they get cut off by the guard. Yeah. And did you tell them at all the document that was cut off again? Yes, I told him to ensure that he is present that the protocol of what the protocol is. Because I asked him, I said, look, I said, make sure that you're present at the phone call. I said, make sure that it's logged and when you dialed the number, the number you have to likes down the line. And he said, he says, well, I want to call my attorney, who was your attorney, so on and so on. Okay. When they answer the phone, I said, this is McC. My name is so. And so I have a call for Jeffrey Epstein. What is your name and what is your title? So we can log it and the time that it's logged and then you give the phone to the inmate and then you sit there while they're on the phone. Question. And do you know if that was done? Answer. Again, I don't know. Question. You don't know? Answer. I just ensured that's it. Like I said, that's why I asked him, I said, are you going to the shoe? Are you going to be able to monitor the phone call? Question. But you don't know. He gets cut off by the guard. He didn't say. Yes. Question if you wrote anything up. Answer. I don't know what he did. Question. Okay. Answer. I just ensured that I told him. Question. Sure. Answer. What needed to be done. Question. And what would typically happen with that log after he logged it? Answer the phone call? Question. Sure. Answer. Or that log. Question. Like after he documented it. Answer. It would be maintained just in a log. Question. Okay. Answer. It wouldn't be brought for anyone's review. You know, it would just be like, hey, did Epstein get a call? Yeah, I could tell you so I can pull the book and then I can tell you. And look, when he was given a call. Question. So it goes into a specific Epstein file. Answer yeah. No, it wouldn't. It doesn't go into a file. It goes into a book. It goes into a book for monitored calls for all the inmates and legal calls. Question. For all inmates. So not just Epstein. Answer. That's correct. It would be a green logbook, you know, and it would have the name of the inmate and who they called, the number, the time. I don't know if the duration is on there, but it'll be a person who also monitored the call. So, you know, all that information. But it wasn't something like a form that was filled out and then it was placed in the inmate's file or a central file. Question. And do you know if that logbook was filled out? Answer. I don't know. Question. You don't know? Okay. When you met with Epstein on that night, how was his demeanor? Answer. It was fine. He was cheerful. Question. He was cheerful. Answer. You know, he didn't look disheveled because I asked him, I said, how you doing? You all right? He said, man, I'm good. Everything is fine. And I said, do you have a good visit? He said, yeah, everything is fine, Cap. I said, all right, man. Question. Okay, no cause for concern. Answer. No, because every time we had that interaction, it was always pleasant. He was never negative. Question. Okay, it says, redacted was made aware of the possibility that Epstein would be housed at mcc. And in advance of Epstein's arrival, redacted was not present when Epstein was admitted to the facility. Epstein was thoroughly vetted to determine if he was fit for general population, and he was ultimately placed in the special housing unit. MCC places inmates under three categories of close supervision. One, dry cell for those at risk of smuggling contraband, Two, psychological observation, and three, suicide watch. Is that all correct? Answer. Yeah, at the time. Question. Okay, so who made the decision to place him in the special housing unit specifically and why? Answer. Okay, so basically, the rationale for placement of the inmate in the special housing unit would have been a decision that was ultimately made by the warden. They would have took the critical or criteria of the inmates. They would have been, okay, well, what's his risk? You know, what would the likelihood of him being endangered if he would be placed in general population? His culpability. Can he cope while being inside of a general housing unit? So the determination was between medical, health services. Oh, I'm sorry. Health services, psychology, and the warden. Question and who was the warden at the time? It was redacted. Question. And do you know how to spell that last name? Answer. It would be redacted. Question. Thank you, sir. Are there any other secure housing Units within the mcc? Answer There is only one secured housing unit. That's the shoe. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with the Captain from MCC and his interview with the OIG inspectors. Question Is there any other secure housing unit within the mcc? There is only one secured housing unit. That's the shoe. Question okay, not here gets cut off by the captain, but however, we do have 10 south, and 10 south is 4. I believe those are for the salmon mates. And those inmates are under a specialized monitoring, which comes from. I believe it's from the Attorney General. I believe. I can't remember who the person is that's over it, but I believe that it was the Attorney General or whoever makes that determination for those SAM inmates. Question okay, and what does SAM stand for? Answer I believe I can't remember. Question okay, but is it like SAMs? Answer that's correct. Question okay, like an acronym? Answer it's an acronym. Question okay, and that is not made by anyone at the mcc. That's made by the Attorney General. Answer yeah. Question all right. Was there any discussion of placing Epstein in one of those units? Answer no. Question could he have been placed in one of those units? Answer I'm sure he could have. Question But I mean by executive staff, or would they have to have made a call to he gets cut off? Answer I believe they would have had to make special concessions for the inmate. Answer okay. Question they would have to vet him and someone would have to approve it, I believe outside the executive staff at mcc. Question okay, and then that's where I meant by. Is the executive staff able to independently. Answer no, we are not. Question okay, Were there many inmates housed within 10 south at the time? Answer no. I believe at the time we may have had a total of four to five. Of course, you know, we have the notorious Joaquin Guzman up there, El Chapo. We also had the apple puff phonetic was up there. We also had inmate. It starts with an S. I can't remember his name. But basically, these are inmates that have made crimes against the United States, which it was deemed that those inmates would be in that special management unit. And they couldn't, of course, go to the general population. Question, Was this like a terrorist type of People. Answer. I would say some of them are terrorists, you know, of course you had Joaquin Guzman was up there, the terrorist kingpin, drug kingpin. He couldn't go on a general population unit. Answer sure. Question he would go. Normally guys like that would be in a place where I come from before, you know, he would be at adx. I believe that a Pop, I think that was his name, a Popov or some Popov. These guys had made terrorist threats against the United States or there were guys up there that had material or that was found in cooperation with outside agencies that were trying to detriment of indiscernible and cause harm to the United States. These kinds of guys, they were the ones that were put in the unit? Answer sure. Question Guys you wouldn't want in general population because of their recruitment, their value or their radical ability that they could be able to have recruitment value for, you know, for other inmates and general population. You don't want those guys in there. Answer yeah, Question But Jeffrey Epstein, you know, he's a multi billionaire. Question. Sure. Now, as far as 10 south, is that one inmate Purcell? Answer yeah, Question and video monitored at all times? Yes. Okay, so it's like you're a maximum security type. That type would be the highest security that an inmate at MCC could be placed in. Question okay. Answer yeah, could be placed in. Yeah. Question but the executive team never discussed that. No. Question okay. Redacted. Advised that Epstein preferred not to have a cellmate engaged in manipulative behavior to avoid having one. What type of behavior? Answer I believe that Epstein and when I first came in, he was doing self manipulative behavior. You know, he was showing passive resistant activity. As far as, you know, when they're taking meals or wouldn't listen to staff as far as when they're giving him direction, you know, he would sit in his cell and he wouldn't talk. I believe he wasn't taking meals. At one point he was refusing to take showers. Things of that nature. Question and the sentence continues, including requesting to see a psychologist. Answer yeah. Question Is that part of it? Yeah. Question okay. Did he say why he wanted to see a psychologist? Answer I don't know. Question no. Answer I remember that. No. Question. Sure. At Epstein's request, he was interviewed by a psychologist. Do you know who he made that request to? Would it have been shoe staff? Answer he probably would have made those requests to any of the staff that may have been monitoring him at the time. Because if he was placed on psychological observation at the time, psychological observation, you would have had to have staff person that sat there and monitored the inmates. Another inmate couldn't have monitored him. Question. Okay, and that is, is that like 24, 7? Answer. That would have been 24 hours of that seven days a week. Question. So a staff member would just sit there and watch. Answer. Correct. Question. Communicate with them or no? Answer. Yeah, of course. Question. Okay. Answer. I mean, that's, you know, encouraged. Even though the inmates placed in that situation. Again, we're talking about humanity here. Question. Huh? Answer. You know, you want to gauge this guy's mental acuity, meaning that the inmate, you want to know how he's feeling, how he's doing? Answer. Sure. Question. Is he improving or is he declining? Because if he's declining and you can actually see it, you want to contact somebody, you know, if this guy is in there being very, very, you know, belligerent, he's being passive aggressive or active, resistant or displaying signs of violence, you want to make sure you notify someone. You're not going to just sit there and allow this guy to do self harm to himself and. Or staff when they come to the door to provide his services, you know, such as taking him to shower, providing his meals, providing his medication or whatever it is. So you just don't want to sit there and, and allow this inmate just, you know, if he is going to be detrimentally, could be harmed to staff or himself. You want to ensure that you notify someone. Answer. Okay, so following that assessment, Epstein was initially placed on suicide watch. He was later interviewed again and downgraded to psychological observation. Now, just for the suicide watch and psychological observation, where are they located? Answer. They would be conducted downstairs on the second floor in the health services area. Question. And that's outside of the shoe. Correct. Answer that is correct. Question. And that was prior to any attempt on his life or anything like that? Answer. That is correct. Question. Okay, was that after some time he was returned to the shoe, redacted, began hearing talk that Epstein was trying to get back on suicide watch. Information like this is usually generated from rounds, kites and kites or notes. Correct. Answer. Correct. Question. And notes from inmates specifically Correct. It could be, yes. That would be inmate correspondence. Yeah. And monitoring phone calls and letters. Correct. So the hearing of talk, that's all based on inmate talk. Answer. That would have been all that staff. Question. Okay, staff as well. Answer. You know, staffing sitting there and, you know, especially when he's on suicide watch, staff are taking notes. So it's every 15 minutes, you know, staff. Oh, I'm sorry, every 30 minutes. I believe I can't remember. It's been a while. But, you know, a staff member, it's every 30 minutes, I believe, is taking a log of what the inmate is doing inside of his cell. So you know what he is doing. The inmate is facing to the right. The inmate is facing away from the staff. The inmate is, you know, doing what? Or he makes statements. Those statements will be written in the log. Question. Okay. It says, honor. About July 23, 2019, Epstein was found unresponsive on the floor of his cell with a homemade piece of fabric on his chest. When you say a homemade piece of fabric, can you explain that a little bit? Okay. Basically a homemade piece of fabric. It could be anything because it's out of the special housing unit. That's what we're talking about, right? Yeah. I mean, I'm talking about specifically in this instance. Do you know what is meant by found on the floor with a homemade piece of fabric on his chest? It could have been fragments from a T shirt. It could have been fragments from sheets. It could have been fragments of cloth. He gets interrupted. That they could tie together. Answer. It was tied together, you know, indiscernible to make the type of homemade fashioned. He gets cut off by the investigator. Question. Did you see it at all though yourself? Answer. I can't remember. Okay, sure. Epstein's cellmate had flagged the attention of a staff member who handcuffed the cellmate and. And removed Epstein to bring him to the medical unit. Do you recall at that time who his cellmate was? Answer. Tartaglioni. Question. Okay, great. And did you. All right, we talk about him in a little bit. Redacted. Heard from the staff that Epstein may have been faking unconsciousness. Do you know who told you that? Answer. Well, basically in memorandum. I remember when it was reported to me and I made my report. I believe it was in the report of the incident by redacted. Question. Okay, answer. And I believe that she had put out an email which concluded that the inmate was showing manipulative behavior through his statements and what was observed by medical staff. Question. Okay, answer. So basically, they were saying that the incident didn't occur as the inmate may have tried to make it look like. Or. Or occur. Question. Okay, and we're going to get into that in a second. Because he was not observed opening his eyes and making other suspicious movements not consistent with an unconscious state or. Sorry. Because he was observed opening his eyes and making other suspicious movements not consistent with an unconscious state, Epstein was medically assessed and became coherent. Epstein claimed that his cellmate, Nicholas Tartaglioni tried to take his life. Was that investigated? Answer I believe no. I mean, I can't remember, but I believe a report of incident may have been done. Question. Okay. Answer and primarily when an incident is generated. So anytime that an incident happens in the institution. I'm going to walk you through this. The lieutenant that's on shift is supposed to do the initial fact finding, the gathering of evidence. Okay. And of all these things. And then they write a brief synopsis and then it's put in a packet and then ultimately SIS department will investigate it. Especially if we're having an assault, which would have been a 224 Alpha, which is a minor assault of another. So pictures would have been taken, clinical assessments of both inmates would have been taken, witness statements would have been taken. All of these things would have been done. And it goes into an investigative packet. Question sure. So redacted Lieutenant would have created it and provided it to sis. Answer and would have created it and for me to move it on. Question and do you know if there was any credibility found to the claim that Epstein made that this other his cellmate had tried to take his life? Answer I don't believe there was any credibility that was ever concluded that that incident happened. Question and do you know anything about how he was initially found if a homemade rope or whatever it was was found around his neck or says in this, on his chest, Anything with that, with, you know, do you know what I mean? Like if someone was trying to hang himself, if it came on their chest, do you know anything about how that may have happened? Answer I mean, forensically, I wouldn't know. I'm not an investigator like that or on that level. So I can't really tell you the position of any type of homemade fashioned item that would have been used to facilitate a suicide attempt or an assault attempt? That's not my level. Again, I'm trying to remember what it was or what was used. I don't know exactly. So I can't really determine or give you that type of, you know, I don't have expertise in that area. Question but in the information that was provided to you, it was suggested that he tried to take his own life, not that his cellmate tried to take his life. Answer Correct. That it was inconclusive that the inmate had. Inmate Artaglioni had tried to kill this guy or tried to do any self harm to this guy. So you have to like, you have to take an advantage because it's one inmate's word against another. So when the investigation comes down, of course inmate Epstein would have been interviewed, Inmate Tartaglioni would have been interviewed, at which time you would have those statements, you would have waved, and then you would have to look into consideration any witness statements or anything that was observed during the clinical assessment. So that's why health services helps us out, because the inmates don't want to understand that everything they're doing or anything they're saying is being entered on a clinical assessment. So that's where they are saying that his actions may not have been what they should have been. For a person that was quasi supposed to had been assaulted, or if he was supposed to have been unconscious, he was displaying this type of manipulative behavior. So, again, I wasn't there. I don't know what occurred. I'm just going by what the information that was relayed back to me. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.