Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 10-13) (5/16/26)

Summary

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The Epstein Chronicles

Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 10–13)

Date: May 16, 2026
Host: Bobby Capucci

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Overview

In this extensive episode, Bobby Capucci breaks down key parts of the Office of Inspector General (OIG) interview with Michael Thomas, a Bureau of Prisons correctional officer implicated in overseeing Jeffrey Epstein during his death at MCC. The episode focuses on the procedures (or lack thereof) regarding rounds, inmate counts, documentation, and officer conduct on the night of Epstein’s death and adjacent shifts. Through a detailed walk-through of the interview transcript, Bobby explores the realities inside MCC, the failures and ambiguities in protocol, human flaws, and the atmosphere surrounding one of the most controversial deaths in modern legal history.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Rounds, Counts, and Documentation Procedures

Timestamps: 00:46—12:30

• Requirements: Officers were supposed to conduct regular inmate counts and rounds to ensure inmate safety—one had to physically check cells every half hour and both officers had to sign documentation.
• Reality: Thomas describes a lax environment where the rigidness of documented procedures faded into routine 'convenient' shortcuts, especially during overnight shifts.
  • "If one person signs it, are they basically signing for both of you?"
    Thomas: "Yeah, if you’re going to, they sign it for both." (03:36)
• Documentation: After signing, paperwork was usually collected by an officer known as "Internal."
  • "The staff member that rides up the elevator, and at the end of the day you collect five security sheets, round sheets, a bunch of different paperwork." (05:30)

2. Admissions on the Night of Epstein's Death (August 10, 2019)

Timestamps: 05:36—13:00

• No Rounds or Counts Conducted:

  • "No rounds were conducted?"
    Thomas: "No, I don’t recall doing any rounds." (08:32)
  • "So no one conducted rounds or counts on August 10, 2019?"
    Thomas: "No. On my shift, no." (09:06)

• Explanations: Fatigue and long overtime shifts cited as rationale for dereliction of duty.

  • "I was just tired, just exhausted that day." (10:02)

• False Documentation: Count slips and round sheets signed, certifying checks that never happened.

3. Culture of Non-Compliance and Rationalization

Timestamps: 13:30—27:31

• Frequency of False Reporting:

  • Thomas admits it had happened before, but infrequently:
    "I could say I’ve done... sometimes you have bad days, sometimes you have good days, but with everything else I just had one and I know it was a bad day." (20:41)

• Pressures and Exhaustion:

  • "As you can see by my monthly, I do a lot of overtime."
  • The overnight (12am–8am) shifts are painted as particularly draining, sometimes leading to skipping duties.

4. Responsibility and Ambiguity in Procedures

Timestamps: 13:30—27:31

• Documentation Responsibility and Supervisory Roles:

  • Ambiguity over which officer was responsible for signing and submitting documents.
  • Supervisory (lieutenant) counts perceived as unofficial and not routine.

• Clarification Attempts:

  • "Are they [Lieutenants] required to go to the shoe and physically do either a round or account during each shift?"
    Thomas: "I don’t know." (17:53)

5. Physical Layout and Surveillance of the SHU (Special Housing Unit/Shoe)

Timestamps: 27:31—39:38

• Tier Structure & Officer Station Visibility:

  • Detailed mapping of the SHU: Two levels on the 9th floor, all contained in a single area, not separate floors as sometimes thought.
  • The officer’s station could see the cell doors but not into cells themselves:
    "You can see the doors, but you can't see inside?"
    Thomas: "You can't see inside the cells. No, you could just see the door." (37:01)
  • Epstein’s cell was not the closest to officer station—other tiers were nearer.

• No Unauthorized Entry Observed:

  • "So point being, you would have known if someone went in or out of Epstein's cell?"
    Thomas: "Yes."
  • "And no one did?"
    Thomas: "No one went in as far as I know. No." (39:06)

6. Cameras and Surveillance Gaps

Timestamps: 39:38—45:00

• Lack of Insight into Camera Functionality:
  • Thomas is not aware of any issues with cameras in the SHU during the relevant night, nor of anyone monitoring the feeds live.
  • Some cells had cameras inside (not all), but Epstein’s cell apparently did not:
    "Was there a camera inside of Epstein's cell?"
    Thomas: "I don't know if his tier particularly have cameras, but I do know some of the tiers actually do have." (41:47)

7. Officer Conduct: Sleep, Oversight, and Computer Use

Timestamps: 45:00—55:52

• Overnight Napping:

  • Thomas admits to dozing off during the shift, but uncertain for how long or if fellow officer Noel also slept.
  • He insists sleeping is not authorized:
    "Are you authorized to sleep during your shift in the shoe?"
    Thomas: "No." (43:40)

• Internet Use:

  • Thomas confirms using work computers during his shift, searching for motorcycles—uncertain if this was permitted.

• No Recollection of Signage on Desk Re: Epstein’s Cellmate:

  • "Do you recall seeing that sign?"
    Thomas: "No." (54:00)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On falsifying records:
  "There really is no easy way of putting it. It's just something that just happened. Regrettably." — Thomas (21:17)

• On workplace culture:
  "Most of the guys in there do their counts." — Thomas (29:41)

• On witnessing suspicious activity:
  "So on August 10, 2019, did you ever see anyone inside of Epstein's cell?"
  "No. I never seen anybody going inside the cell." — Thomas (39:06)

• On surveillance:
  "Some of the other cells do have cameras in them... but, not inside his cell. No." — Thomas (41:23)

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Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Content Description | |---------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:46 | Explanation of rounds, count procedures, and rounds documentation | | 08:32 | Admission: No rounds or counts conducted during night of Epstein's death | | 10:02 | Officer fatigue and overtime as factor in skipped duties | | 13:30 | Routine of falsifying records, ambiguity over supervision in the SHU | | 27:31 | Physical layout and officer station visibility | | 39:06 | Visibility to Epstein’s cell, observation of no entry/exit night of death | | 41:17 | Camera coverage (or lack thereof) in the SHU | | 43:40 | Admissions on sleeping at post; explicit denial of authorization | | 54:00 | Denial of seeing any sign about Epstein’s cellmate requirement |

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Tone and Language

The tone throughout the episode is matter-of-fact, candid, and occasionally resigned. Thomas’s testimony is marked by informal language, blunt admissions, and a recurrent emphasis on fatigue and human imperfection. Bobby Capucci, as host, maintains a methodical, inquisitive approach, drawing attention to inconsistencies and highlighting the importance of these interviews in framing the larger narrative of the Epstein case.

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Summary & Takeaway

This episode provides a granular look at prison operations on the night of Epstein’s death, centering on admissions from a key officer that expected rounds and counts simply didn’t happen and records were falsified. It exposes a culture vulnerable to human error and institutional fatigue, yet Thomas insists this was not normal practice. Questions about camera coverage, enforcement of protocol, and the environment inside the SHU all remain sources of confusion, ambiguity, and controversy—mirroring the fog that still surrounds the Epstein case.

Host’s Note:
All referenced documents, count sheets, and related information are available in the episode description box. The episode continues the podcast’s mission of peeling back every layer of the Epstein story, unconstrained by official narratives or media silence.

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Transcript

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And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with a Michael Thomas interview with the OIG inspectors. Question okay. And with round, you also don't need to speak with them. You just have to make sure that they're in there and they're alive. Thomas Just make sure. Yeah, for the round, just make sure that they're in there. Question okay, and at all times, do two officers needed to do the rounds and the counts? Answer Supposed to be, yeah. Question and what's the primary purpose of conducting counts and rounds? Thomas to make sure there's a body inside the cell. Question okay. And like you said, no one has escaped. Thomas yeah, make sure somebody's in there. Question now, are cell counts and rounds documented? Thomas yeah. Question okay. And do the cos sign documents after they conduct rounds and counts? Thomas yes. QUESTION now in this case, from 12am to 8am, there's two people that are assigned to the shoe, correct? Thomas yes. Question and two people have to actually conduct the rounds, correct? Thomas yes. Question so if you and Noel are the only two officers in the shoe, were you both responsible for documenting the round sheets and the count slips? Thomas Documenting the count slips, not the round sheet. I mean, if I'm not mistaken, there is no direct responsibility. Whoever wants to do it or do it, it's not assigned or numbered that has to do this or number has to do that. The only thing that we have to do is sign a count slip. As far as signing a round sheet, he gets cut off. So both have to sign the counts, but for the round sheets, it's if one person signs it, are they basically signing for both of you? Thomas yeah, if you're going to, they sign it for both. Question so both people are responsible for that signature for the rounds? Thomas well Because I sign it. She can sign it. It doesn't make a difference. Question. But she's signing on behalf of the both of you. THOMAS Sign that the rounds were completed, yes? Question okay, and what do you do with the documents after they're signed? So let's talk about rounds first. After the round sheets are signed. Can you just explain to me what a round sheet is? Do you keep everything on one document? Thomas. For all three shifts are all on one document. Question. So starting on each date from 12am he gets cut off by Thomas. If it says 12am I can't remember the exact date. So it should start from 01. Or maybe it's 12:01. And continue on. Question. Okay, and what about counts? Sorry? What do you do with those sheets after your document, the 30 minutes? Thomas cuts them off. They stay there, I guess they get sent to the lieutenant's office at the end. They get sent to the lieutenant's office at the end of the day. Question okay, and who collects them? Thomas? Internal usually collects them. Question and what is internal? Thomas? How do you explain internal? The staff member that rides up the elevator, and at the end of the day you collect five security sheets, round sheets, a bunch of different paperwork. He gets cut off. Is internal like part of control? Thomas. No, it's a person in an elevator because inmates can't ride the elevators by themselves because we're in a high rise. Question. Okay. Thomas. So it's not like a compound center. So the officer on that usually collects all the rounds. If somebody else hasn't done it, the officer on the elevator will usually do it, which is called internal. Question Is it a lieutenant or an officer or either? Question Answer by Thomas it's an officer. Question it's an officer. Okay. And do you call anyone with the numbers for either counts or rounds? Thomas. You call control center. Question do you call them or did they call you? Thomas? No, you call them. Question. You call them. And how do you call in the control center? Do you ask for someone? Thomas. No, you call cna. I forgot. And don't ask me what CNA stands for, because you have a control center. And then you have another person. And if it's still two, because it used to be one at a time, but, but you have the control center and then another person in there, and the person is called cna. And you would call them and they would have a sheet they would call for the count that they could verify for the count. Question Is it just for the counts, not for the rounds? Thomas. It's just for the counts. Question okay. When you call, do you give them a number? Thomas yeah, you call and give them a number. Question okay. And is it just one overall number? Thomas yeah, it's an overall number. Question for the shoe. So it would be. You wouldn't say per tier? Thomas no, no, they just say one base count of the whole shoe. Okay, so on August 10th, during your shift from 12:00am to approximately 6:33am, when did you conduct rounds in the shoe? Thomas on August 10th? I didn't. Question no rounds were conducted? Thomas no, I don't recall doing any rounds. Question okay. When did you conduct cells during your shift in the shoe on August 10th? Thomas Sells. Question Sorry, cell counts. My bad. When did you conduct the accounts during your shift? Thomas I didn't. Question. You didn't? Okay. And did Noel. Thomas no, she didn't. No, she didn't. So no one conducted rounds or counts on August 10, 2019? Mr. Thomas no. On my shift, no. Okay. Prior to 6:33am on August 10, 2019, when was the last time you conducted a round within the shoe? Mr. Thomas I. He gets cut off. Would you have conducted rounds on August 9, 2019? Thomas yeah. Prior. The day. The day prior. Question and do you recall if you actually conducted any rounds that day? Thomas I probably did it for the rounds and then my counts. I probably did a couple there, yeah. Question A couple? THOMAS I know I did my count. I don't know how many rounds that I did. Question okay. Do you know if you did the 12:00am, the 3:00am and the 5:00am? Thomas yeah, I would assume I did, yes. Question so if we go back to the video, will we be able to see that you did those? THOMAS you'll see if I did it. Question all right. So your belief is the August 9th, you did actually conduct those rounds? Thomas I would assume I did my counts, yes. Question okay, we're all in the rounds that were documented conducted on August 9th. Thomas I don't know. I don't know. Question Would you guess that they weren't? Thomas I guess that they were. Before anything else before I said that they weren't. I would guess that they were. Some rounds were probably conducted. Question okay, Some were conducted, so maybe some weren't. THOMAS maybe some wasn't. Nobody's perfect. Question okay, all right. Question one person has to do the round. Where's the notebook? Thomas that's the round sheet. Question okay, so this is August 10, 2019. The round sheet shows 12 through. It was only signed up until 6, 6:30. Different dates, different tiers okay, can you just explain, Are these, is this for the overall shoe and the different tiers listed on it? Mr. Thomas yes. Question all right, now he gets cut off by Thomas it's not labeled at different tiers. No. It's not labeled at different tiers. Well yes. Each paper is a different tier. Question yes. So like this says tier G, that one is tier H. Thomas Yeah. QUESTION Correct. Thomas each thing's a different tier. Question Tier K. Thomas no. Tier L. Question that's a different count. Okay, so these are what signed after a round is conducted? Thomas yeah. QUESTION all right, and these are signed, but none were actually conducted. Is that correct? Thomas yes. QUESTION okay, are any of these signatures actually yours? Thomas no. Question okay, so whose signature, whose initials are these? Thomas It's Noel's. Question all right, but as you mentioned before, you are both actually responsible for signing. Thomas no, we're both not responsible. I know. But responsible for Thomas Cuts him off signing he gets cut off conducting them. Thomas Both are supposed to be conducting. Yeah, both are responsible for conducting. Okay, so why didn't you guys conduct the rounds? Thomas I couldn't tell you. I was tired that day. As you can see by the paper, I do a lot of overtime. I was just tired, just exhausted that day. Question Hum. All right, can you just initial that date? Sir? Thank you. And you said that you also didn't conduct any of the cell counts on the shoe on August 10, 2019, correct? Thomas Cell counts. What do you mean cell counts? Question the counts. So that was the rounds. The count. These are the counts? Thomas Counts Yes. Question Sorry, the inmate counts. I don't know why somebody wrote okay, so the 12am 3am, 5am none of those were conducted? Thomas no. Question Are these the three where they. Can you just tell me what it is we're looking at here? It looks like this is the overall 12am count. Thomas cuts them off. Institution count. QUESTION so this is the institution count and this is for all three of those counts. 12am 3am 5am Thomas Yes. Question all right. Awesome. Mr. Mitchell, who is a lawyer and the number doesn't change or anything. Thomas no. Mitchell okay. All right, so is that the time of the count? Thomas no, that's the time of the counts on either one of them. That's not the time of the counts. Question look at the bottom. Thomas yeah. The time when it was printed. The time it was printed. Question at the top and at the bottom is the time of the count. Thomas yeah. What time? Question the first One was at 1249. Was when it would have been cleared. Is that correct? Thomas? Yes. Question. And then this one would have been three. And it looks like. Thomas. 324. Question 324. I don't know what the 319 on here means. Thomas. It means good verbal. GV means good verbal. Question oh okay. So good verbal at 319. Thomas clear. Counted. Question. And the next one was at 5:30. So that's the overall count. Can you just tell me what are these pages? Thomas that's the hospital, which is the suicide room. That means that three inmates were out of their cell that were down in the suicide room. Question. Okay. Thomas. I mean those four inmates.

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Question. And what about this? What's that? Thomas that's just the paperwork that's in the computer system saying that they were taken from one place to another. Question. Okay. Thomas. They were taken from their cells to the hospital. Question. Okay. And these are the actual count slips? Thomas these are the actual count slips. Question. All right. Can you find which count slips were the ones used from the shoe on August 10th? Thomas. I would say za. Question I think it might be the next page. Okay, so that's za the very last page. And whose signatures are those? Thomas? Mine and Noel's. Question. You and Noel. Okay. And you actually did sign this? Thomas. Yes. Question okay, and it says 8, 10, 19. And what does that time say? Thomas? 1201. Question who would have filled that part out? Thomas. He gets cut off. Can you tell? Thomas. Yeah, that looks like my handwriting. So your handwriting would have filled that out. Alright. And did you have a conversation with Noel at the time? Thomas no, I don't recall any conversation with her. Question. You don't recall? So was it like, hey, we're tired, let's just fill this out? Thomas I don't recall. It could have been. I don't recall saying that, but it could have been something to that nature. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with a Michael Thomas interview with the OIG Inspectors. Question do you remember having any conversation with control center or the ops lieutenant about the fact that those numbers are different? Thomas no QUESTION So do you remember, were you the one who called that number on that night? Thomas I don't remember. Question. You don't remember? Thomas I don't remember. You don't remember. And I only say this just because of everything that's surrounding this. These were the three counts prior and obviously THOMAS Huh, this is the kind of reason for us interviewing you. Thomas but then also he gets cut off. Do you remember? It says here you can look at the next so this is za what does that number say? Thomas72 question whose handwriting is this? Thomas this one is mine. That's mine. So that's all yours. And you did sign this one? Thomas yes. Question and this is the 3am Count. Thomas Huh? Question what does this say? Thomas 72. Question all right, so do you recall a conversation with the ops lieutenant with regard to the discrepancy? Thomas I don't recall. I don't recall a conversation with redacted the discrepancy. But I'm sure that another one was sent down changing because they wanted to clear I'm sure that another one was sent down saying 72 with the correct number on it. The person that can see that's down there definitely would have verified that, oh, you can have the wrong number and switched it out. QUESTION do you remember those speaking with the person on the phone and saying that? Thomas I don't question. You don't remember any conversation with them telling you you've got to do a new account, a new account slip? Thomas I don't recall any conversation. I would be sure that he didn't just let that just go with the wrong number on there. Or maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. QUESTION well, I think it was a she that you would have spoken to. Thomas It's a he. QUESTION oh, this person is a he. So it wouldn't have been redacted that did this one. THOMAS what do you mean? Question who would've? Can you tell me which because doesn't the ops lieutenant have to take one of the counts? Can you tell me who it was that took this count at 12:00am Thomas I couldn't tell by the handwriting. Well, I don't know who took it. It doesn't say who took. Just says who prepared it. QUESTION okay, do you at all recall speaking with redacted about these counts on August 10, 2019? Thomas no, I don't. Question no. So is this the first time that you're even noticing that the count THOMAS that the count slip was wrong? Yes, this is the first time. Besides, this is the first time he gets cut off. Would that be a big deal if you're sending in a count slip that's wrong though? THOMAS Would it be a big deal? Yeah, it would be a big deal as far as the wrong count being called in and then the correct count slip would have been changed before the count was cleared. QUESTION okay. Thomas so I'm sure the correct count slip probably was sent down. It's just obviously not here. QUESTION but being that it's kind of a big deal, that still doesn't spark your memory of any kind of correction to this? THOMAS no, it's not sparking my memory by any kind, but I'm sure a correct counsellor would have been sent down. QUESTION okay. THOMAS it would have just been left at 73 and that's the wrong number. QUESTION so a new count slip would have been sent down. Is there any reason for them to have that count slip that was originally prepared attached to this document? Thomas Unless it got misplaced. No. I don't know they would put that onto this document. Question okay, fair enough. Were any supervisors present? Or any supervisors so you already said you didn't conduct any counts, so obviously no supervisors were present for any counts or rounds during your shift, correct? Thomas huh? Question Were they required to be present for any counts or rounds during their shift? THOMAS they're required to take one count. I don't know which count they're required. I don't know what's the book thing but which one they required. But are they required to take rounds in the shoe while I'm there? I don't know. Question okay. THOMAS I don't know if they're actually Supposed to have to do one round per unit, anything like that? I really don't know. Question so when you say they're required to take one count, do you mean in the control center? Thomas in the control center downstairs, yes. Question yeah, they're supposed to take an institutional count. Thomas Exactly. Question but are they required to go to the shoe and physically do either a round or account during each shift? Thomas I don't know. Question did they ever do that during any of your morning, your shifts from midnight to 8am Thomas did they ever come take account with me? Question Do a round or account with you? Thomas yeah, I've seen them do it before. I've seen them just come. Some will count a unit from time to time. Question okay. Thomas I don't recall that night, which lieutenant, but I've seen lieutenants. I'll count that unit so you don't have to worry about it. Since we'd be shorthanded sometimes if they're out there and about at that time, they'll just take it. Then they'll take the three count. Like I said, it varies. There's as far as I know, there's no black and white way to do it. Question okay, so you don't know. THOMAS as far as he gets cut off. Question Requirement saying that, you know a lieutenant needs to do a count or around. Thomas yeah, I don't know of any requirement. Question so you think when people did it in the shoe, you think you're understanding was that they were doing it just to help you out? Thomas yeah, if they did it while I was in the shoe, yes. Question do you recall when you worked in the shoe, if there were any recent times, like I know you worked on August 9, do you remember at all? I know it's a different day. Thomas on the 6th, I think. Question do you remember at that time if a lieutenant helped or assisted with the count? Thomas I don't. Question. You don't? Thomas I don't. Fair enough. Alright, so you already said we don't need to go through all these individually. Thomas okay. Question one by one you said you didn't do the 12:00am at 3:00am and the 5:00am what conversation did you have with Noel about this during that time? Answer I don't know. QUESTION I know you asked specifically about the 12:00am but what about it during your shift at all, like not doing any of the counts or any of the rounds, what conversation did you have with Noel? Thomas I don't remember having any conversation with her about it. No. QUESTION so it wasn't even discussed like, hey, it's a long night, we're all tired. Let's just not do these. Thomas I don't remember. Question no. Thomas I don't think so. I don't remember anything like that. Question all right. So not one of them were conducted, but no conversation with regard to it? THOMAS I don't remember any conversation with us talking about it or anything like that. Question. Okay, and on the 12am at 3am, 5am did you call in the counts or did Noel call in the counts? Thomas I don't remember who called in the counts. Okay. Thomas I don't remember. It had to be either one. There's only two of us there. I don't remember who did it exactly. I really don't. Question. Alright, so like you said, with regard to the rounds that are signed, both are responsible. You know, you're supposed to both conduct it. One actually has to sign. Thomas Somebody has to call in. Question Somebody has to call it in. So you're both taking responsibility for calling them in? You both take responsibility for signing the round sheets? Thomas yes. Okay, so if you're documenting these rounds, did you document these counts? You obviously had to document the counts at the time that they were called in, correct? Because you've got to provide the count slip. Thomas yeah. So if you're preparing the count slip, why aren't you just how long does it take to conduct a count? 15 minutes? 10? 15 minutes. So if you're preparing the count slip, why aren't you just conducting them? Thomas Like I said, just exhausted most of the time. As you can see by my monthly, I do a lot of overtime. Like I said. Again, I'm usually the internal. I do prefer internal, but as you can see, I do shoe quite a bit as well. And it's just something that just happened. It really is no easy way of putting it. It's just something that just happened. Question. Okay. Thomas. Regrettably. Question. So how often would you document cell counts that you didn't conduct? Thomas not often at all. Question not often? Thomas no. Question Would it be like 1 per shift, 2 per shift? Thomas no, like, I mean, like I said, no one's perfect and everything like that, but I could say I've done. I usually get up and do a round, just walk around and everything like that. And it shows that I walked around and, and everything like that. But it's not very often that I just said it, excuse my language, that I just disregard my job and my duties. It's definitely not often at all. Question okay. Thomas but like I said, he gets cut off. QUESTION it happened in the past, you just don't know how it. THOMAS yeah, it did. It's. I'm sure it happened in the past. Like I said, I'm not going to sit up and say I'm perfect. I get everything on the dot bullet that but I try to get as most of it like that. Sometimes you have bad days, sometimes you have good days, but with everything else I just had one and I know it was a bad day. QUESTION what about rounds? How often would they not be? THOMAS Same thing, Same thing. QUESTION Same thing? THOMAS Same thing. You don't get as many rounds as you can. I don't know what the number of it's 7, 10 or 12 or whatever the case of the number it is. But you do get the rounds in and everything. Even if you get them done, if you don't get them done by every half hour, you know what I mean? I've done them every hour one time, you know, just being exhausted. Question right? Thomas But I do get some done and like I said, this particular time, I guess I didn't get anything done. Question now, does it have anything to do with like being the 12:00am to 8:00am shift, you know, why do they have three separate counts at that time? THOMAS that's an institution thing. QUESTION Is it what the inmates like typically try to harm themselves? Is that why they're done more often from that time? THOMAS it's actually changed. Before the count was done at 9:45, now it's done at 10. I don't know the particular reason why. That's just standard BoP protocol since I've been there to make most counts. Question okay, do you know of any other staff members that are also entering their slip counts and rounds? Thomas I don't know what other staff members do. I'm locked in whenever if I'm on internal or if I'm on indiscernible. If I'm on one unit, I don't know what other housing units are doing. Question sure. So you mentioned that you were certainly were other times that you didn't do counts arounds. So obviously I'm assuming you weren't always working with Noel, correct? Thomas Yes, I wasn't always working with Noel. Question so I'm assuming those counts and rounds weren't conducted with another staff member.

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[Interviewer]

Correct. Thomas. No, I said they were conducted. Question. Not all of them. Thomas. Yeah, I did say maybe not all of them, or maybe most of them, or maybe all of them was conducted. You know what I mean? It's not always just not done at all. Thomas. But I have conducted my counts before. Absolutely. Question. But I want to make sure that we're certain that obviously you. THOMAS cuts him off. That I said that I'm not perfect. Question. Yeah, that you didn't conduct all your accounts, that you were documented. Thomas. You can be certain that I'm not perfect, that I've conducted every single one of mine all the time, but I've conducted most of my counts for most of the time. Okay, gotcha. Thomas. Absolutely. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with Michael Thomas and his interview with the OIG Inspectors. Question. So when that happens, though, would you have conversations with staff members in general, like, hey man, it's just a long day. Let's not do this one. Answer. Thomas. Absolutely. That depends on so many different variables. There is really no conversation about, well, you know, we're not going to do this or anything like that. There's really no conversation about that. Question. I would just think that if there is no if it's supposed to be done and there is no conversation about it, that just seems like they're never done. So what do you have to say? Thomas cuts them off. Not really. He gets cut off like, okay, let's skip this one. Thomas. Like I said, I'm not the only one that does. This actually looks a lot different from what I'm used to, seeing, as you can see, because right now these only have stars. Some people have s by their name because they did more overtime than others. So sometimes you could just be tired. Sometimes it doesn't have to be a conversation. Somebody just didn't bother you and you just didn't do the round at all. Question do you almost like wait for someone to take the initiative and if they don't take the initiative, you both just kinda sit there? THOMAS no, no, like I said, it's just it could happen in any different variable way, you know what I mean? But most of the time, I would say most of the guys in there do their counts. Question okay. Are more counts not being done in that morning shift though, versus the day shift? THOMAS Again, I don't know what other people do. Question sure. Thomas. When they're about in their housing units or not? Question okay, and it's kind of a common practice at the MCC not to do rounds in the shoe and the counts? Thomas no, it's not a common practice. I don't want to say that. Question you wouldn't say it's a common practice. So this was an unusual event is what you're saying? Thomas yeah, definitely an unusual event. Question okay, I'm going to move on to the next thing. Let's just talk a little bit about the shoe layout. Do you have, do you mind, just so we can get these away from you, do you mind just initialing? Thomas okay. And dating the top there, Both the rosters as well as the count slips. We already did the rounds, correct? Thomas the rounds, yeah. QUESTION so just initial and date the top. It's just to show that where Thomas cuts him off, that we spoke about it. Question it's what we discussed. And this one we didn't actually go over. My bad. Thank you, sir, for initialing and dating those. So this is the layout of the shoe. It looks like you said that there's two levels in the shoe, Correct. It starts on the ninth floor? Thomas yeah, it starts on the ninth floor and goes all the way up to the tenth. Question okay, are you able to tell by this by looking at the letters which one is the first floor and which one is the second? Thomas no, I can't tell. QUESTION that isn't the cells. So like the cell numbers and stuff, do you know which one are like L, H and all that kinds of stuff? Thomas by the numbers. No, I couldn't tell you which number is what. Nah, I couldn't tell you what number. I really couldn't tell you what the numbers are. Question that's fine. So there are they basically. THOMAS I'm sure that this could be the top and this could be. QUESTION Are they basically identical layouts though? Thomas. On everyone except for. Yeah, every housing unit is set up the same. Absolutely. QUESTION okay, so it looks like that aside from this, this says stairs. So it says kitchen area. Would the kitchen area be on the first and which is the second? THOMAS the kitchen is on every housing unit. Question you have to tell me indiscernible, like as far as you like this is what I'm noticing as a difference. These cells look like they're all the same aside from here it looks like they're visiting activity. And then here it says kitchen area and here it has this area. So by looking at that, are you able to tell what the first and what's the second? So I'm noticing the difference between this and this. And like I told you folks earlier, this is a bit disjointed and it jumps around. So I'm doing my best to try and keep it in a sequence that's followable. THOMAS Right. Yeah. Okay. Because this says office. I would have said that this would have been the bottom, but this has office. This got to be the bottom because the visiting floor, but he gets cut off. This has M over here. See this has M in front of it. This has K. QUESTION these are the tears. Thomas M.H. yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. This is a tier, okay. QUESTION that's what I was saying. And. THOMAS oh, in front of there you said I see, I heard that you said indiscernible. So H would be this would, I think K is the and it's just all disjointed here folks. G is where, where's G? G is the top. There we go. QUESTION that's what I thought. So and these are the L tier over there. THOMAS oh, because this is 10 South. This is 10 South. Question and just since you mentioned it, what is 10 South? Thomas another housing unit inside the institution. Question Is it the super secure, one inmate per cell? Thomas yeah. QUESTION it has cameras in it. THOMAS yeah, cameras all around and everything like that. QUESTION Right. So high profile type of thing. THOMAS High profile inmates and everything like that going there. Yes. QUESTION all right, so did you say then this is. Because that's 10 south, this is the second floor. Thomas yes. QUESTION all right, I'm just going to write on top of this right here. Second. THOMAS okay. Question second floor and on this one I'm just going to write first floor. Thomas yeah. You separated by floors, but they're all in one place. Thomas it's not too different, separate floors. When you're saying floor, I'm thinking ninth floor, seventh floor. But this is all technically. QUESTION it's all the shoe. Thomas it's all the shoe. Yeah. QUESTION Correct. But there are two floors in the shoe. Right? Thomas. No, it's really not. Well, yeah, it's not two floors. Question. Like a split level almost. THOMAS. I don't know how to explain it. It's not two floors like that because then you would say it's three floors. Because when you go down, you go down the steps into one and you just go up the stairs. But it's all in one area. Like, this would all be 10 south, and this would be 9, and then all this would be 7. But right here, you'll go down and you'll go up, but it's still all on the same floor. Question. Okay. THOMAS it's all on the 9th floor. Question. So it's all on the 9th floor. So is the second level of the 9th floor. Thomas the second level of the ninth floor. Question. Should I change second level or second floor to second level? Thomas. Yeah, because you say floor, you're thinking like you went from one floor to another. Like, is this the third floor? And downstairs would be the second floor question. Sure. Thomas. But this is all. It's all one question. So ninth floor, second level. Is that correct? Thomas yeah. Okay, I don't have a problem with that. Question. First level. All right, so you can tell me where it is that the officer station is set up. Where are you when you work in the shoe? Is it all in a centralized location? I'm assuming it's on the first floor. Thomas it's on the first floor. And it would be roughly. This is kind of a setup. That's crazy. But it would be over. No, because that's knl. So this would be. It's between K and he gets cut off. So is this the kitchen area? Question. This is recreation. Would it be somewhere over, like here? Thomas. Well, see, because of the way that this is set up, it would be somewhere over here. It's not level with the tears question. Okay. Thomas. Like, because how this is set up. May I question? Yeah, you can even draw. Thomas. All right, like I'm saying, it's in this space here, officer station. But it's not on the same level as the tears question. Okay. Thomas. Like the way if I say officer station, he gets cut off. So it's like below it. Thomas, you're thinking it goes down. If I say officer station here, you're thinking that it's right next to K tier and mtr, but it's not like that. Question. Okay. THOMAS like this, the officer station would be somewhere on this general area right here. But then K tier is over here, but it's downstairs. Question. Okay, Thomas. And then J tier is upstairs, but it's still on the ninth floor. But it just goes. Like I said, it has steps here. Like, how is it. It got steps down to one, steps going down to two, so they're not on the same. He gets cut off. I understand. Question or answer by Thomas Flora is the officer station. Question. So you think it's actually outside here and not more like in here? Thomas. Yeah, it's kind of like in between. I would say more like here, like in between them. Question. Okay, so from the officer station, can you see like the doors to the cells? Thomas, you can see the doors to the cells? Yes. Question. You can. Thomas, you can see inside the cells? Absolutely not. But I can see the doors to the cell. Question. So you can see the doors, but you can't see inside? Thomas, you can't see inside the cells? No, you could just see the door. Question. All right, could you see the door to Epstein's cell? Thomas? You can see his door? Yeah. You can see his door from there. Question. Okay, so from the officer's station, was Epstein pretty much the closest cell to the officer station? Thomas? No. Question. It wasn't. Thomas. No, it's not the closest. The M tier, because if I'm not mistaken, Epstein was on the second tier. So he would have been on L tier. He would have been up here. So all the cells in M tier, just right here, would have been the closest to the officer station, M tier, and even this tier would have been closer than him. Question. Okay, Thomas, if I'm not mistaken, Epstein was up here. Question. Do you remember which cell he was in?

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[Interviewer]

Thomas, this one. Question, do you mind just marking that like put a star or something? But you could see his door, but you couldn't. Thomas. Yeah, you could see he gets cut off. It wasn't the closest. Question, Thomas. Yeah, it's not the closest to it. Question. Does it sit up here, though? If you can see like from down here, you can see there. Thomas. I don't know why he would sit there in that particular Cell. Question but you can see the door? Thomas yes. Question okay, and I'll just go through. And you said you couldn't see actually inside the cell, though? Thomas no. You can't see inside the cell? Absolutely not. And you approximately, like, how far would that be from the officer's station Epstein cell? The estimate was 15ft. Thomas okay. Does that sound right? Thomas we're good with that. So on August 10, 2019, did you ever see anyone inside of Epstein's cell? Thomas no. Question not from the hours of 12:00am to 6:33am Thomas no. From I never seen anybody going inside the cell. Okay, so you didn't ever witness anyone, inmate staff members? Thomas no, I didn't. Question okay, and were you present in the shoe for your Entire shift from 12am to 6:33am Thomas Yes. Question okay, is there like a bathroom and everything in the shoe for you to utilize? Question yes, there is. Yes. Question but do you can't recall ever leaving? Thomas I don't recall going to the bathroom. Question no, not to the bathroom. I just meant was there a reason for you to leave that door that someone would have had to unlock or lock or let you into the control center, would have let you in? Well. Thomas well, no reason. Somebody had to go upstairs and count the other units. One of us had to go up there and count the other unit. There's a reason. If you want to go to the bathroom or get a drink of water, you can go over there. But I don't remember if I left or not. I don't really recall. Question so your recollection is that you remained in the shoe for the hours of 12:00am to 6:33am Thomas Yes. Question so point being, you would have known if someone went in or out of Epstein's cell? Thomas yes. Question and no one did? Thomas no one went in as far as I know. No. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right there. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to get right back to the Michael Thomas interview with the OIG investigators. Question Are you aware of any issues with the camera system in the shoe on August 10, 2019? Thomas no. Question no. Did you know if any of them weren't recording? Thomas I don't know. Question no. And you never spoke with anybody about the camera system? Thomas. No. Question. Did someone live monitor you all when you're in the shoe? Thomas I don't know. Question. You don't know? Do you know if someone is live monitoring the range of these tears? Thomas I don't know. You're not sure? Thomas I'm not sure. I don't think so. Do you know how light camera systems are set up? What they're pointing at and what they're supposed to be covering? Thomas I don't. Because some of the tiers have cameras. I mean, some of the cells have cameras. I don't know. When you say some have cameras. Thomas I couldn't tell you. Would that be just like 10 south and then 10 south lower are the ones that have cameras? Thomas no, because some of the other tiers, some of the other cells have cameras inside. Redacted. Question. Some of the other cells do have cameras in them? Thomas? Yes. Question. Aside from 10 south and 10 South Lower? Thomas yes. Question. Okay, what's the purpose of that? Thomas? I don't know. Just when I came here, they had cameras. Okay, so not outside of their cells, but in their cells? Thomas. Inside of the cell, yes. Was there a camera inside of Epstein's cell? Thomas I don't know if his tier particularly have cameras, but I do know some of the tiers actually do have. Besides 10 south lower. G tier, if I'm not mistaken. It's either G or H, but I think it's G. Yeah. G, Besides G&10 South. Yeah. Some of the other cells do have cameras in them. Okay. Anything that you know that would capture the inside of Epstein's cell area? Thomas no, not inside his cell. No. If he doesn't have a camera inside his cell. Okay, I'm going to move on to the next section. This is about sleeping. Do you recall sleeping in the shoe on August 10, 2019, between the hours of 12:00am and approximately 6:33am? I recall dozing off from here and there. Yes, I do. Do you recall how long you were asleep? No, I don't. Do you recall if Noelle also slept on her shift? I don't. No, I don't. So you don't know how long she was asleep for? Thomas I don't know. Okay. Were you and Noelle seated next to each other on August 10, 2019? Thomas if you're saying seated like how me in. He gets cut off? No, we're not seated like that. Question. How far away were you? Thomas Maybe a foot, two feet apart. I mean, it's not too far, but we're just sitting like right adjacent and next to each other. It's like how it is. It's like an L shape. Question okay, but I mean, you're sitting with one another. Thomas yeah. Question you're not like touching, but you're sitting with one another in the same area. But like, one person is facing one way and another person is facing another way. Question okay. And you don't recall seeing Noel actually sleeping? THOMAS no, I don't recall her sleeping. Question and you did those off, you did sleep, but you don't remember about how long? THOMAS I do not. QUESTION Was it about two hours? Does that sound about right? THOMAS I really couldn't tell you. Okay. Do you know if you were both asleep at the same time? Thomas I don't know. Did you discuss like, hey, I'm going to sleep, you stay awake? Thomas no, we did not. Question no. Okay. No discussions were had. Are you authorized to sleep during your shift in the shoe? Thomas no. You're not. Question okay. Is that policy that you're not allowed to sleep? Like, how do you know that you're not authorized to sleep? Thomas. You're just not allowed to sleep at work? I don't know if it's policy or not. Question okay. And you knew at the time, obviously? THOMAS yeah. QUESTION okay. And just to go back, you know, at the time you had, you knew that you were falsifying those records at the time of the rounds counts and those count slips on August 9th when you were actually certifying that you knew that you were incorrectly certifying them. THOMAS the count slip. Question yeah. Thomas yes. Okay. Have you ever fallen asleep previously while on duty at the mcc? THOMAS I probably have, yeah. Thomas yeah. Is that kind of like, understood if you work that shift that you kind of can doze off? Thomas no. ANSWER no. Question Is it a lot less active during the hours of 12:00am Thomas I mean, of course everybody's asleep at that time. All inmates are asleep at that time. But it's a lot no bodies, no interaction or anything like that. So, I mean, sometimes you get bored and, you know, I mean, you can sleep through that. You just not a little bit. It's happened with me a few times. But I mean, I do get up from time to time and, and try to drink and definitely got a case of Red Bull on hand from now on. Question okay, what about Noelle? Have you worked with her in the past? THOMAS I don't remember. Maybe I have. I don't know exactly. I've been here 14 years. Question so do you recall her sleeping in the past? Thomas no, I don't. Question what about other people that you work with? Do you recall other people that would also sleep? Thomas no, I can't recall if they were sleeping or not. Redacted. Question. You are just taking ownership for yourself. You know, you fell asleep but he gets cut off by Thomas that's it. Question okay. Did Noel ever try to wake you up when you were sleeping? Thomas I don't recall. Question no. Thomas no, I don't think so. Question did anyone report that you know of, did anyone contact you to try to wake you up? If people were watching you on the cameras, did anybody say hey, wake up or did Noel ever say hey, you've gotta wake up? Thomas no. Question no. Where is the CO required to be during their shift in the shoe? Is it just all over the area? Thomas yeah. Question Just walking around just within the shoe? Thomas it's just with just guess in the shoe. Well, some other you're required to be inside the shoe. Question Is there always two people required to be in the shoe at all times? Can there ever be one person left alone in the shoe? THOMAS I've seen when it's been one person, if I'm not mistaken, it's required for us to be, I think a minimum of two. Question okay, so if you need to actually leave the shoe during that shift when there's only two people there, what do you do if two people are supposed to be there, do you have to call and see if someone else can come and replace you? Question if you're talking about like for emergencies, maybe of course somebody has to replace you and maybe that could be just shorthanded and you just left alone. But I know sometimes we used to have to count next door, we used to go count nine, the ninth floor. So it just varies. Question okay, so do you have like a certain amount of time that you're allowed to leave one person alone? Like for instance, if you got to go to get help with account, are you allowed to say hey, I'll be right back and you get like a 10 minute window or anything like that, how does that work? Thomas I don't know if it's a particular number or anything like that, but if you're going to go count eight or if you're going to count 10 and then you're going to count nine, that's no particular time. Question okay Thomas, you know what I mean? People walk different and I probably walk faster than say Mr. Adapted or yourself where some people might be walking fast. As far as I know there's no particular set time. Question so you already said you didn't leave the shoe on August 10th. Did you know if Noel left the shoe at all on August 10th? Thomas I don't recall. I don't remember. I don't remember. You just know that you were there the whole time? Thomas if I didn't count 10, I don't know if I counted 10 or not. I don't remember if I counted 10 or not. Question now, if you count 10, is that considered leaving the shoe? Because isn't that count part of the shoe? Thomas I've seen that's a different number, it's a different floor. You're not inside the shoe, you're inside 10 south, which is a totally different place. Question okay, but you don't have to go through like Control and all those door locks. That's all kind of within the general shoe area. Thomas Control has to pop the door. Question oh, they do have to pop the door? Thomas they do have to pop the door for you to get inside. Same process. You take the phone off the hook, you ring the officer inside the control and he has to pop the door. And then once you're out, once Control pops that outer door, the officer inside has to open up the inner door. Question okay, so it's its own separate unit. Thomas it's its own separate unit. Just like any say if I go to, he gets cut off. So there's two officers at 12 and 6:30. Thomas cuts him off. No, it's one officer up there. Question there's only one officer up there. Thomas and it's one officer up there.

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[Interviewer]

So that's why somebody has to go up there and count. Okay, is it always from 12am to 8am? One of the people that are in the shoe always has to assist 10 South. Thomas Most of the time they assist 10 South. And sometimes more often than not, they have to assist NY north as well. Okay, and what's nine North? Thomas the unit across the hall, is that also like a special housing unit type of situation? Thomas no, it's a regular housing unit. Okay. But you don't know if that's against policy or not. I don't know if it's against policy if you're just helping out because you're shorthanded. Sure. Shorthanded then. Alright. Are you guys authorized? You're in the shoe. To be able to access the computers for your own personal reasons. Like, are you allowed to do Internet searches and things like that? Limited personal use? Thomas. I don't know if you are or aren't authorized or not, but I don't know if it's unauthorized or not. Question. You're not even sure? Thomas. I'm not. Question. They don't talk to you about like what you can and can't do? Thomas. I know you're locked. You can't just shoot search Facebook or YouTube and those things are not allowed on those types of computers. Redacted. Oh, okay. You're not allowed to do like email or like Facebook, Thomas. You can't do any of that stuff. And you can't access, as far as I know, you can't access your own personal email. You have the job email and everything like that. And that's about it. Question. Are you allowed to do like regular Internet searches though, and things like that? Thomas? I really don't know. Question. No. Thomas. No. Question. Do you recall using the Internet on August 10th? Thomas? I wrote my name and it says, yeah, I recall using the Internet at the time. Question. Okay. Do you remember what you were searching for? Thomas? It says motorcycle. Question. Motorcycles. All right, but do you know if that was authorized or not authorized? Thomas? I don't know. Question. So you're not sure. Okay. Are you aware if Noelle was also utilizing the computer? Thomas? I don't know what she was on. No. But do you know if she was using the computer? Thomas? Yeah, if she was. I don't know. Like I said, we're facing two totally different directions. Question. Sure. Do you know where you were seated? What desk you were seated at? Where you happened to be seated at the OIC desk? Thomas. There's no specifically. This is the OIC station and this is somebody else here. It's not labeled that way. Question. Alright, the reason why I ask, I'm told that there was a sign on the OIC's desk that said Epstein is required to have a cellmate. So I was told that the OIC had like a specific desk. Do you call recall seeing that sign? Thomas? No. Question. On any of the computer or desk areas? Thomas? I don't question that. Epstein's required. Have a cellmate? Thomas no, I don't. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.

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