← The Epstein Chronicles
The Epstein Chronicles
Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 17-20) (5/16/26)
00:58:35
Michael Thomas was a veteran correctional officer employed by the Federal Bureau of Prisons at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan — a federal detention facility — where Jeffrey Epstein was being held in the Special Housing Unit (SHU)...
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- [00:01]
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Interviewer / Questioner
What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right back in to the Michael Thomas interview with the OIG Inspectors. Question so what's your understanding of how Epstein died? Thomas it's been two years. He died from hanging. Question so do you believe he died from hanging? Do you believe he died from someone trying to murder or someone hurting him? Do you believe that he died from a medical response? Thomas I'm not medical professional. I don't know. I've seen so many things and I'm faced with so many things. They just said that he died from a hanging. Question and being the first responder to the person in there, do you believe that is how he died? Now because you said again previously when I was asking you I don't know if he was alive or dead. Do you believe he died from hanging? Thomas I never believe he died. I don't believe the conspiracy that somebody snuck into the jail catapulted. Mitchell Just answer the questions. Thomas yes or no? Thomas oh no. I mean, yes, I believe he died from hanging. Question do you believe he died from hanging? All right. And do you believe that Epstein took his own life? Thomas yes. Question did anyone else take Epstein's life? Thomas no. Question no. Did anyone assist Epstein in taking his life? Thomas uh, no. Question Did Noel take Epstein's life? Thomas no question. These are questions that we just have to ask because you guys are the first to be there and you guys were the ones on duty. Thomas I'm here with you. Did Noel assist Epstein in taking his life? Thomas no Question did you assist Epstein with taking his life? No. Did you take Epstein's life? No. Did you have any part in Epstein's death? Thomas no. Question Prior to Epstein dying, did you have any communication, verbal, electronic, handwritten or otherwise with anyone, be BOP staff members or otherwise, civilians, inmates, anybody about the safety and well being of Epstein? Thomas no. Question Prior to Epstein dying, did you have any communication, verbal, electronic, handwritten or otherwise with anyone, BOP staff members or otherwise, so, civilians, inmates, anybody about the death of Epstein or taking Epstein's life? Thomas no. Question did anyone ever offer you anything such as something of value or favors with regard to harming Epstein or taking his life? Thomas no. Question did anyone ever threaten you in exchange for harming Epstein or taking Epstein's life? Thomas no. Question Were any of your family members? Thomas no, absolutely not. Question so now we're getting more back into the administrative stuff. Why wasn't Epstein in his assigned cell on August 10, 2019? Thomas I don't know. Question Are cell rotations, do they occur with inmates in the SHU that you have to move them every certain amount of days? Thomas yeah. Question all right, who's responsible? Thomas that's the shoe lieutenant question. That falls on the shoe lieutenant. Thomas yeah, from the shoe lieutenant. When it falls on the shoe Lieutenant to pass down to the staff members when they're going to do cell rotations or anything like that? Question all right. Thomas it's something that's tracked. If I'm not mistaken, it might be tracked on the computer. I don't know. Question in the computer. Who's responsible for making that change in the computer? Thomas I don't know. Question did you know that Epstein was not in his assigned cell? Thomas no. Question so this is the first time that you're hearing that? Thomas yes. Question all right. Is that something that you guys were supposed to monitor or do when you're in the shoe during your assignment, Are you supposed to make sure that inmates are in their assigned cells? Thomas When I come in at 12, that's all taken care of. You don't move anybody at 12 midnight. Question yeah, I just didn't know if that's something that you guys are supposed to like pay attention to, like, alright, this guy is supposed to be in this cell. This guy is supposed to be in that cell. Thomas It's 70 something inmates or something. If 15 inmates come down on short staff and they gotta move, maybe all 15 won't get done. So maybe somebody is in a 21 day rotation. They're probably laid over for like five or whatever couple days. But I don't know as Far as you're going by cell rotation, and his cell rotation is up 21 days and he hasn't moved there. And he was in the wrong cell. I don't know that. I don't know. Question okay. Thomas Like I said, I'm not in custody. I wouldn't deal with that. Question okay, so I'm assuming it's the officers who actually move them physically to a different cell. Thomas yeah. Question who goes into the system and changes it in the BOP database? Would that be the officers? Thomas Officers or operation or the shoe? Lieutenant. Question okay, but that's nothing that's done at 12:00am Thomas that's nothing that's done at12:00am no, it's not. Question. All right. Do you know why pill bottles were found within Epstein's cell? THOMAS no, I do not. Question. Are inmates allowed to have medication within their cells? Thomas I'm sure some are allowed, yeah. Question they're allowed. THOMAS I'm sure that some are allowed medication. I don't know what medication they need or anything like that. Question do you ever recall seeing a picture I'm showing you with medication that was in Epstein's cell? Do you recall seeing this? Thomas no. Question does that look like something that he would have been authorized to have with that much medication? THOMAS I don't know what they are. Question I don't know that they're authorized. And what they're not authorized. Question okay, just because I showed it to you, can you mind just initialing and dating it? THOMAS I'm sorry. I keep closing this. Question no worries. And so you don't know anything about, like policies or related to what they're authorized or not authorized? Thomas no. Question Would that be up to, like, medical? THOMAS Medical, yeah. QUESTION okay, are you familiar, just in general non medical related. What inmates are authorized and not authorized? Thomas no, I'm not questioning. You're not even familiar. THOMAS Question. With what they can and can't have in their cells? Thomas no, I'm not. No. All right, hold on. I have to interject. How are you a prison guard and you don't know what people are allowed to have or not have in their cells? Question. Do you know if the shoe is any different than the rest of the institution, of what inmates can and cannot have in their cell? Thomas yes, absolutely. I'm sure it's different. I don't know, though, because I'm sure it's different because that's the 23 on one. So I'm sure it's different from a regular housing unit on There, it'll walk around. Question. What's 23 on one now? Thomas? They're locked down 23 hours a day, and then one hour is for rec. Question. But as far as what they're allowed to have in their cells. Thomas. No, I don't know the book version. Oh. Of what they're allowed and what they're not allowed. Question. So do you know of other inmates are allowed to have medication in their cells at this time? Thomas? I don't know. Question. You don't know how many changes of clothings and linens are allowed in an inmate cell within the shoe? Thomas. I don't know. Question. You don't know? Thomas. That's something that would be done prior to my shift. Question. Sure. So does this look like an exorbitant amount of clothes, clothing and, and linens that are in Mr. Epstein's cell in that picture? Thomas. It looks like a lot, but that could have just been. I don't know what's from the previous inmate that's left over that they didn't take his stuff. Like, again, I don't know. The inmate that left, they didn't take his linen out or not. And you can't tell from these pictures which is ripped up and which is ripped up and which is not. Most inmates will get a bed sheet, rip it up and put it up as all types of stuff that goes on. But I don't know if that's something doing or not. It has to be broken down to all right, this is seven sheets. And if I have seven sheets or something like that, then yes, that's excessive. But other than that, I don't know that they're supposed to have within what they're not supposed to have one sheet. I really don't know. Question. Is it supposed to be a one for one exchange? Thomas. Yeah, it's one for one Question. So they're only technically supposed to have one. Thomas. It's two sheets, one blanket, I think, or one blanket, one sheet and one towel and one washcloth. Okay. Thomas. And I can't remember the full thing. Question. And do you. Thomas cuts him off. That's not something that happens on morning watch. That's something that happens prior to the morning watch when I stayed there from 12 to 1. Question. Okay. Thomas. That's not something I have 12 to 1. You don't take the inmates out and I don't know and you don't give them anything unless somebody's coming in off the street. It's already pre bed was made that you're giving to them to put this over there. And usually they try to put them on G tier single cell until they can find out what their affiliation is or anything like that. Redacted. Okay, but to you though, if there is one person in that cell, does that look like it's too much linen and too much clothing? THOMAS like again, I can't tell what's ripped up and what's not ripped up. Question okay, do you mind just initialing and dating these? THOMAS Question I've just got a question by somebody else. Now. This is somebody else interjecting. Did the cell look like that when you walked in? THOMAS I don't remember the clothes and stuff being on the floor. I I don't remember that much linen being on the floor. Honestly, I couldn't tell you what's there. I just remember him hanging on his side. MITCHELL breaks already. Question Push pause. All right, we're being asked to take a break. So they take their break and then they come back. THOMAS okay. Question and we're showing you the pictures. THOMAS Absolutely. Question did you provide Epstein with additional clothing or linens? THOMAS no Question Ever? THOMAS no QUESTION Is that anything that you would typically happen between the hours that you work? Thomas no question 12 to 8am Thomas no question okay. Is providing inmates with extra clothing and linens a security risk? THOMAS I don't know. I don't know if it's a security risk or anything like that because I don't know. Question okay, question we touched on this, but when inmates are provided linens, is it supposed to be a one for one exchange? THOMAS yeah. QUESTION all right. And is that typically what they are utilizing in order to do things like hang themselves? THOMAS I don't know. I really don't know. What's the typical thing? Question that's what they used in this case, though. It appears. THOMAS yeah, that's what it appears in this case. You see the sheet or a shirt, I don't know what it is. Question okay, and somebody on suicide watch, do you think it's abnormal? Again, you didn't provide the linens, but do you think it's abnormal if he had extra linens? If he was someone that was just on suicide watch? THOMAS it's not abnormal for someone to have extra linen. Question it's not. THOMAS Question So if that's supposed to be a one for one exchange, is that like a constant problem then at the McC? Thomas in a perfect world, in a perfect world, it couldn't be. But like I said, I'm not custody. I'm not always up here like that. And when as you can see, all the linen and that stuff is already done. Question okay, and again, we talked about this briefly, but what material was used to take Epstein's life in August of 2019? Thomas I don't know what it was, a sheet or a shirt. I don't know exactly what it was.
- [13:14]
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Interviewer / Questioner
This orange cotton, which could be either. Thomas A sheet or a shirt. A sheet or a shirt. Okay. Does this appear to be what it was that was removed from Mr. Epstein? Thomas it appears to be, yes. Question okay, can you just walk me through like this thing specifically looks like it's still intact. Thomas huh? Question did you have to rip it off or slide it over his head? Thomas what are you talking about? That was still intact. Yeah, I took it off his head. I guess I took it off his head. I don't remember I did, but I guess I took it off his head. But like I said, when I ripped it, it was tied to the other portion of it. That's what I meant when I said I ripped it off. Like just when I just pulled it off. Question okay, so maybe it could have also been possible that this was part. That's what was actually connected. This is the part that was possibly ripped. Thomas. Just pushed off. Yeah. Like that. It probably just slipped through or whatever the case may be through that. Question. Okay, but yeah, you said you ripped it off? Thomas yeah, I ripped it off. I just ripped it from the piece that's still dangling. Question. You don't recall actually sliding it? Thomas I don't recall if it's still intact. Maybe I did. Question and again, I don't know that that was what was actually around his neck. Thomas. I don't know. Question. But that does appear to be probably what was around his neck. Thomas. Okay. Question. Is that correct? Thomas. I don't know. Question. You're not exactly sure? Thomas. I'm not exactly sure. Question. But does this look like something like you recall when you took it off his head? Mr. Thomas yeah. Question all right. Just because I showed it, you want to just initial and date? All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right back in to the Michael Thomas deposition with the OIG inspectors. Question. So we have a few follow up questions and it's going to be by multiple different people. Unfortunately, their names are redacted. Question. With regard to when you conducted the indiscernible. Thomas. No problem. Question Agent just mentioned it too. So you walked in, is Epstein to your right or your left? Thomas. My right. Question okay, and when you see him, right, is he hanging? Thomas. Yeah. Question and where was in comparison to this, in comparison to this picture, whereabout was his head? Thomas. Maybe a little bit below the circle. Maybe right here, I guess I can't remember exactly. Or maybe a little bit below that. Circle. Question. And his whole body on the floor. Was his butt on the floor? Thomas no. Question what part of his body was on the floor? Thomas I don't recall what was on the floor. I don't think anything was on the floor. I don't really remember. Question. Was his legs on the floor, feet on the floor? Thomas. Well, I'm going to say his feet was on the floor. Question. You would assume because it doesn't look up that high. Thomas. Yeah, because it doesn't have the yeah. Question so you think his feet were on the floor? Thomas I really don't remember exactly, but I mean, I would assume his feet was on the floor. Question now, see, there's a knot on the noose right here. What part of the neck was that knot on? Like, when you see it, did you try to loosen it or tried to take it off? What part of the neck was that on? Do you recall at all? THOMAS I really don't. I really don't. Question when you pulled it, it looks like there's a portion left back on here. Was that attached to this? THOMAS Like I said, he said he was a portion of that. Like I said, when I remember ripping all that down, I don't know if I just if it slipped through or whatever may be the case. I just remember going like this and he going to the ground. And then we started doing chest compressions. Question and he came off easily? THOMAS yes, he came off easily. It didn't come off too hard. Question and you don't recall trying to gets cut off? THOMAS I don't recall taking the noose off. I really don't. I don't recall taking that thing off from around his neck. Question do you remember if the linen ripped so it separated from this, or if this is possibly the same thing as that? Do you recall when it ripped? Do you remember if it, like tore and broke and came into two separate pieces? THOMAS I don't, no. THOMAS I don't remember. So when you looked into his cell, were the lights on or off? I want to say the light was on. I think the light was on. Okay, so you knocked on the cell and he didn't answer, so you had to open it? THOMAS yeah. Do you recall actually opening, turning the key to open the cell, or was the cell already open? THOMAS nodded. The cell. I had to open the cell. Okay, you walked in, you saw this. Now, I want to in this picture, I saw something this picture right here, the one you initialed, you see the mattress on the floor? THOMAS okay. Was that on the floor when you walked in? THOMAS I don't remember. I don't know. Because he would have been, technically, he would have been just laying here, right? THOMAS yeah, he's off to the side. Yeah, you can't see, you can't see his right, right here, but he's off to the side. Question and he gets cut off by. Thomas because there's a lip, like you said, there's a lip right here is covering that side of the wall. Question and this mattress, where does it belong? Up here on top? THOMAS yeah, if that's one on the floor, yeah, that Belongs on top. Question. And you don't recall all of this laying around or anything? Thomas. No, I don't. No, I don't. Question. We're just trying to get an idea. Was the cell a mess or anything like that? Thomas. It could be a totally different thing because I've seen inmates look like that and their mattress on the floor. Some inmates sleep on the floor just because it's a bunk bed. They don't have to sleep on the top. Some people just sleep on the floor. And then, I mean, I'm just saying because all that stuff was up top there. Maybe he just slept on the floor. I don't know. Question. Okay. All right. Now we're going back to the linens. Thomas. Huh? Question. Was Epstein given special privileges to have extra clothing or linens? Thomas. I don't know. You're not sure if he was, what shift would typically take care of that? It could be day watch or evening watch. Question. Question. So either one of those two other shifts? Thomas. Yeah. Question do you know if anything was in Epstein's cell that should not have been there? Thomas. I don't know. Question can you tell me a little bit about cell searches and how they work in the shoe? Thomas. They usually conduct it on day shift because that's when most people are around just in case you have an uncooperative inmate and you check the cell for contraband. Contraband can be anywhere from a leftover tray being in there to too much paper. Inmates who get mail, too many papers left in there, which is called nuisance trash. Question. Okay, Thomas. But it all depends on anybody else who is conducting it. Question and this isn't regarding your specific shift. I mean, it discussed your shift. But for cell searches, it shows it's emcc, New York Special post order Special housing unit. For here. It says all shoe staff are expected to conduct searches of. Of the special housing unit. The morning watch officer will conduct searches of the common areas and document their findings in the search section of the truscape page. The day watch officers will conduct a search of every inmate cell who attends recreation. The evening watch officer will conduct a minimum of five cell searches during their shift. The entire special housing unit will be searched each and every week. Do you know, is that your understanding of what the policy is? Thomas. Yeah. Question do you know if the other. If MCC was following this policy? The officers that were assigned, were they actually conducting the searches? Thomas. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Do you have any knowledge of anybody conducting cell searches? In the shu, I'm sure that they do. Like I said, I'm not custody up there during the day and. And during the evening, so I don't know what their. What the time, and no specific time when those have to be done, so I don't know. Question. All right. And again, just because I showed it to you, do you mind just initialing page 5 of 14 on the special post? Orders from the shoe. Do you know of any other interactions that Epstein had with other inmates? Thomas no. Question. And you said the last time that you interacted with Epstein was when you fed him in the morning? Yeah. Thomas. Yes. Question and I apologize. Now, it was so many hours ago. What was his state of mind at the time? Could you tell? Thomas no Question. Did he seem unusual? Thomas. No. No. Thomas. No Question. Did it all strike you that maybe he was getting ready to kill himself or anything? Thomas. No. In distress? No. Did he complain about anything? Thomas no. Did you talk with him at all? Thomas no question. You didn't say good morning or anything? Thomas. If I did, I don't remember if I did. Here's your tray. Question. Do you know any of the threats that were made to Epstein? Thomas no Question. Do you know why Epstein was in prison? Thomas. Now I do, yes. Did you at the time? Thomas I really didn't know who Epstein was. Question. You didn't. Thomas. Or the stipulation behind everything behind them? No. Question. All right, so at the time, did you have any specific feelings in regard to Epstein? Thomas. No Question No. Did you speak about Epstein with other inmates? Thomas. No Question. When the medical emergency was discovered, do you believe that you and Noel acted appropriately per BOP policy? Thomas. Yes. Question. Were you and Noel supposed to take immediate action or. Or should you have waited for responding staff? Thomas I think we're supposed to take immediate action. Question. Okay. Did BoP policy say that you should have called a lieutenant and wait for their arrival prior to entering Epstein's cell? Thomas I don't know what the policy says. Imagine that's your comment, bro. You're a corrections officer here. How don't you know the policy? Question. So have you ever been taught, like, it could be a ruse, and if you go in there by yourself without responding staff, they could then overtake you and potentially have you as a hostage? Thomas. Yeah, I've heard that. I've heard that before. But then I've always heard it has to be two staff members to one inmate. Question. Okay, Thomas. And me and Noel was there, so. Question. Okay, so you believe because Noel was there, you Followed the policy. Thomas. Yeah. Question. Okay. Thomas I'm not worried about Question. So you said that after the medical emergency, you actually went down with them to the second floor. Did anything happen with Epstein's body on the way? Did you guys like drop the stretcher or. Thomas. No. Question. He remained his body getting maintained. What about when you were getting him onto the stretcher? Did he do a smooth transition from the floor up to the stretcher? Thomas. As far as I remember, I don't really recall. Question. You don't remember? Thomas. I don't think it was any different. Question. Him dropping or landing or anything like that? Thomas. I don't remember any of that. Question. What about when he was going from the stretcher to whatever they put him in when they got to the second floor? Thomas. Yeah, once we got him to the second floor, he got into the room. I was hands off though. There were so many other people around. I wasn't part of that. Question. And did you leave at the time? Leave the room? Thomas yeah, I left the room at that time. Where did you go and what did you do? Thomas I don't remember exactly where I went. I think I went to my office and then I stepped outside. Okay. Did any supervisor or staff talk to you about the incident? Thomas. No question. Did you make any statements to anyone? Thomas. No question. Did you do or sign any paperwork? Thomas. No.
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Interviewer / Questioner
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- [27:47]
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- [28:46]
Interviewer / Questioner
What time did your shift end? Thomas? Right after the incident. Okay. What time did you depart the McCarthy? Thomas? Maybe about 9:30ish. Question. All right, so it happened at like 6:33. But you did stay until? Thomas. No, I stayed until because eight, let's say about eight something. Because when I was trying to leave and go home, I kept getting calls, of course, from everybody. Then the warden called me and told me he was just concerned about me because of what I've seen and me being traumatized. And so he sent somebody to talk to me, and they met me further down from the thing to come and talk to me. Question. Okay, Thomas, somebody from the crisis support team. Question. Okay. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with the Michael Thomas interview with the OIG inspectors. Question. All right, so probably around 8ish is when you're thinking. Thomas. Yeah, about 8ish or so. Question. Okay. Did you handle or touch any of Epstein's files or paperwork? Thomas. No. Question. During your shift, would you ever handle any files? Thomas. No. They're in sleeping. No, we don't touch any of those. Thomas. You're talking about any files inside his cell? No. The files that you guys have that you maintain for the inmates? Thomas. No, I didn't touch any of those things. I think they're called 292s or something. Thomas. Oh, yeah, no, I didn't touch any of those things. And did you ever touch them during your shift? Thomas? During a shift? No. Question. No. Thomas. Well, excuse me. Let me change that. After you finish feeding you, mark that you fed everybody. But that's not a paperwork thing. I think if I'm not mistaken, that's done on the computer. Okay, so that's not something you do. He gets cut off by. Thomas. Yeah. Continues the question. Like on August 9th, you wouldn't have gone into Epstein's file? Thomas. No question. Have you ever seen Epstein's file? Thomas? No, question no. Do you know anybody that did potentially remove files from Epstein's files? Thomas? No. Question do you know that anybody that went back into the shoe and removed any, like, tags or documents or. THOMAS I was gone. I don't know. Question okay, but did you remove anything from the office? Thomas I didn't remove anything. No. Question no. Another question after that. Can I ask, do you know where the file is kept? Thomas no. Question and so you never removed or destroyed any of Epstein's paperwork? Thomas no, I did not. Question and you never removed or destroyed any signs related to Epstein? Thomas no, I did not. Question that were up in the shoe? Thomas no, I did not. Question did you ever access any BOP database such as BOPWARE, Sentry, TrueView after Epstein was discovered on August 10th? Thomas no, I haven't been back to that institution. No. QUESTION no. And you can only access that from the institution? Thomas Exactly. Question did you ever discuss anyone altering any documents? Thomas no, I did not. Question Removing any documents? Thomas no, I did not. Question Accessing any BOP database? Thomas no, I did not. Question did anyone tell you that they destroyed anything? Thomas no, they did not. Question Moved anything? Thomas no, sir. Question or access to any database? Thomas no, sir. Have you reported for any shifts following August 10, 2019? Thomas no. Question no. Were you placed on administrative leave? Thomas yes. Question by whom? Thomas Whoever is in charge. I can't remember what my letter says. It's the warden, I guess. Question so they didn't speak with you directly? Thomas no, I got a letter in the mail. Question and that's how they informed you? Thomas yeah. Question okay, what did the letter say? Thomas Placed on administrative leave? Pretty much. Question oh. Thomas and the whole bunch of pending something. I can't remember the exact lettering, wording what they said. Okay. And is that what you remain on now administrative leave? Thomas no, I'm on indefinite suspension. Thomas yeah. Did you communicate with Noel after Epstein's body was discovered? Thomas Nope. So you have not communicated with her since? Thomas Besides one time we had to sit down and talk after the case was over. Well, after the thing, we just had a union meeting. That was it. Okay. Thomas and she did come there, that type of thing, but we didn't discuss the case. And you didn't discuss the case? Thomas no, we did not. Okay. So who from MCC have you communicated with regarding Epstein's indictment or incident? I mean, on August 10th? Thomas Nobody. Question no 1. Thomas Nobody. Question I'm assuming aside from your union representative? Thomas well, I just actually just started to him more often, but yeah. Question okay, so he would be the only one? Thomas yeah. Him, the union President Question okay, can 10 and this is something that I just thought of when you just took a break, something that I realized I didn't ask. Can ten south obtain access to the shoe? Thomas yeah. Question and can you do that without telling anyone, allowing them to enter? Thomas no. You're talking about from the outside. No. THOMAS they have to come through the shoe to get to 10 South. There's no other way from anybody from the outside or from any other part of the institution to get to the shoe besides from the outer door. Well, what about the intake system? This is me asking the question. You know, the H VAC system. Could someone crawl through there? I don't know. I have questions, though. Question okay, so could have, could have anyone from 10 south access the shoe without you or Noel being Thomas no. Question and can you just show who was in 10 south when you were there? Can you show me on the daily assignment roster? So who would have been in 10 south when you guys were there? Thomas Redacted. Question and do you remember if redacted visited the SHU at any time? THOMAS I don't remember. Question Would they have been the closest unit to you though? Thomas yeah. Question okay, but you don't recall? THOMAS I don't recall. Question okay, and for feeding or any counts or anything like that, did you guys or would you typically interact? THOMAS yeah, well, if they just for the count does help them count. Question okay, would he personally, what time would he be on to same shift as you until 8am Thomas yeah, same shift. Question Would he possibly be the person that showed up at 5:30am in the shoe? Thomas no, because he was on for the morning watch. If he was there from 12:00am to 8:00am Question all right, but you don't recall? THOMAS Somebody coming in at 5:30. Question who showed up at 5:30am Thomas no, I don't recall anybody coming in at 5:30am Question okay, so 4:00am was lieutenant redacted, but you don't remember anybody at 5:30am Thomas no, I don't remember anybody at 5 30am Question all right, but there is no you were there and there is no way that anyone could have accessed the shoe from inside Noel or you allowing them to get in? THOMAS to allow them to get in. Yeah. Question okay, and you said Epstein cell was locked when you went in there. And when you did find him and ripped the thing off, did you notice that his body was either cold or warm? Question THOMAS I didn't notice. Question you didn't notice that? Thomas no. Question Is there anything that I'M missing. Anything you want to add to this? Thomas I don't I guess I'm not well versed. Question Please well versed in what? Thomas well versed in the policy or anything. But no, I have nothing to add. Question okay, Would you like to question I just have a follow up question. Thomas sure. Question when we showed you that email from Redacted, you said that you've seen that before, right? Question said I've seen that before or excuse me. Answer by Thomas I said I seen that before. Question not that email specifically, but you've seen that type of email sent out from Psych before? Thomas I said I've seen that type of email that you know, I thought I didn't read the top of the email because some of them just say mym all staff. Because they say all staff and it's sent out to everybody. Question Is it normally sent out to everyone? Thomas no, Sometimes it is sometimes with that specific probably just sent out to the shoeing staff because my name wasn't on it and I'm not custody so it was probably just sent out to custody. Question if it was an important discussion, it's something that needed immediate attention, would they have sent it out? Thomas above my pay grade. Question no Would they normally sent it out to all staff? Thomas no, it doesn't have to. Question okay now Agent Redacted just asked you a question about could anyone have come in and out of nine south out of the shoe. Question 10 south question 10 south but out of the shoe if you were sleeping? Thomas huh. Is it possible someone could have come onto or into the shoe and left without you knowing if you were sleeping? Thomas no. Question because you would have had to let them in. Thomas I would have had to let them in. Question Is there any other way that they could have got in without you letting them in? Thomas no. Question could someone else have a key that they could have used? Thomas it would have come from control keys. The only other keys are in control. Question so the only other key is in control. Thomas yeah. Question okay, so the count, the sheets we spoke about, the count sheets and the signature, that's Noel's. Thomas yeah. Question the initials were Noel's not the counts that was on the rounds. I mean sorry, the round sheets. Thomas huh. Question Noel took initials were on it. Do you recall when Noel signed those sheets? Thomas no, I don't. Question if the video let's just say you guys were both asleep at one point. Thomas huh. Question For a couple of hours, would she have filled it up? Sign Those sheets before or after? Because she would not have committed those. She wouldn't have done those rounds. Did you ever see her pull those round sheets out and initial them? Thomas. No. I really wasn't paying attention to what she was doing. I really don't remember. Question. Have you ever worked in the shoe with Noel before? Thomas. It's possible. I don't know. I don't really remember. Maybe I have. I don't really remember. It's possible, but like I said, I don't know. Question. Okay. The reason I ask if you ever worked with Noel before and you said the most of the time, you do the rounds and the counts. Thomas. Huh? Question. Would it have been kind of awkward that both of you guys sat down, didn't discuss the fact you're not going to do the counts, don't discuss the fact you're going to do the rounds, and just sat down, slept, and, you know, went on the computer, but no one spoke about the facts, but someone. But between the both of you guys, you initialed the rounds, the count slips, and also the round sheets. Thomas. Speaking of, I don't believe that we had any conversation. I don't really remember any conversation that we had or anything like that. There are some things that are just not spoken about. It could have been, like I said, I was exhausted. Hey, listen, I did whatever, whatever, and she did whatever, whatever. And that was it. Question does it mean Thomas there wasn't. No. He gets cut off. If you worked with her in the past, does that mean you guys did the same thing in the past? Thomas. No. Question. And just knew. Thomas. No, it doesn't mean that. Absolutely not. Question. How come either of you didn't nudge each other to say, hey, let's go. Question or Thomas I can't say what happened, what was going on with her. I knew what was going on with me. I was just, as you could see by roster. And. And that's not my work roster. That's just my overtime roster that you all pulled up and brought to me. It's every day, Every day. And I was just. I had things that I had going on at the time. Question. And I think the point being there, and again, because you're under oath, we just want to make sure that we're clear here.
- [41:50]
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- [42:14]
Interviewer / Questioner
play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. In fact, it was like an unspoken thing you guys did, but it seemed to be so natural that you didn't conduct any rounds or any counts. So it just seems odd that you wouldn't have happened like that in the past if there was no discussion that were had. Mr. Thomas, like I said, if I did work with her, I don't remember if I did or did not. I mean, it's quite possible I don't remember everybody that I work with in the Shoe, but it wasn't something that we just spoke about. Question. Isn't it kind of awkward that the one night that both of you guys decided that the rounds are not going to be done, the counts are not going to be done, that this incident happens? Thomas. It is. Question Is it possible Thomas cuts him off? But it's never happened before, so of course it's an awkward thing. Question Is it possible that you guys haven't done any of the rounds or counts on shifts before? Thomas. No, that's not possible. I wouldn't put that all to label one night for every night that happens in the Shoe. Absolutely not. I wouldn't label that. Question. He admitted already that he didn't conduct all of the rounds and rounds. He's documented, but he thinks he's done the majority of them. Is that correct? Thomas? I said I'm not perfect. Question. Right. Thomas? And I've done my rounds. I've done all my rounds all the time, but I'm not a perfect person. I may have slipped up here or there sometime, but I have done my rounds. Just one particular night he gets cut off. But not, I think what you said before, you're not perfect. You haven't done all your rounds. But that mostly. Thomas. I would say that on schedule that I do my rounds 90 to 95 of the time. And sometimes I don't do half an hour. I do it on the hour. Question. Well, what about he gets cut off by Thomas, you know what I mean? But it's still the rounds getting conducted. Question. And what for the counts. And now we're talking specifically for the shoe. Thomas we're talking about specifically for the shoe. I usually get every count done. Every count done. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here. And in the next episode, dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna get right back to the Michael Thomas interview where with the OIG inspectors. And we're getting down to the end here. Maybe another episode, two episodes or so, and we should be at the end. And then after this, we're going to dive into other depositions and more unsealed files. All right, Back to the document question. Okay, so. And again, if we go back to actually the video and check to see if you're doing the count, is that again, I'm only saying this because I was just to remind you that you're under oath. Thomas. I understand. Question. And this is where that we can bring this back up. Thomas cuts him off. I totally understand. If you go back to the video, you will see that you'll catch me doing my rounds or you'll catch me doing my counts. Like I said then that's why I said, whereas I'm not perfect. Like I said. 95 maybe the O. Hold up. You know, he didn't do this one. An hour went by, but he did it at an hour and one minute. So then technically, by the paperwork, that I didn't do it every half an hour. Correct? If I do it every other hour, technically by the paperwork, I didn't do half an hour round. I did an hour round. Question but you would have had to still certify that you did it every half hour. Thomas. No, you don't have to certify that you did it every half hour. I don't believe that has to be. If you write on the paper that I did it every hour. It's just when the round was conducted, when I conducted the round. Question. So in order for the rounds to be completed, you don't have to actually Sign it every 30 minutes. Thomas. It could be. I'm not saying that it has to be. I'm supposed to be done every 30 minutes. But if I didn't do it every 30 minutes and I did one an hour, that's when I wrote that time on there. Question. All right, so you wouldn't then go back to fill it in that 30 minutes? Thomas. No, I wouldn't go back to fill it in question. Like, see how they have like. So you would leave one blank if it wasn't conducted? Thomas. No, you wouldn't leave it blank because somebody would tell you to fill it in question. That's what I'M saying, Thomas, if it was from 12:30 to 1 and I did the round once, so I just put 1230 to 1. Like you'll see some round sheets. It says from 12 to. I didn't do it at. But between 1230 and I put 1245, the round is still conducted. So what are you saying? It probably wasn't done in the half an hour block. So you put. Thomas. It probably wasn't just done in a half an hour block, but it was still conducted. Question. Right. So a round was conducted, but if it was covering two, if it was conducting an hour block, how would you fill in the two? Would they be identical? Thomas, as you can. No, because as you can see right here, it's not a specific time because this just says as long as it's between this time. So I did it at 12:10. I started here at 12:10 and then I did the round here. It lapped over to 1240. But because I got to talking to an inmate or like that, it's still round, it's still conducted. Then right here, you know what I'm saying? I go at 12:52 and I did it. I did a fast round. I did it from 1252 to 1259. The round is still conducted. But even though the last though you're caught up in. I understand because it's black and white, it's not just done just like that. It can be done at any given time. And as long as the round is conducted, it doesn't have to be by policy. It's supposed to be in the 30 minute block. That's when you're talking policy. But he gets cut off. Would 30 to 40. Yeah, question 30 to 40 minute block. But like I say, if I did it at 12:10 and did it at 12:40, then, then right here I wanted to just because I wanted to get around done. I conducted at 1252-1259. It's still within the block, it's still conducted. Question. Well, that's conducting around. Correct. But what I thought you said it was like you might not do it for a whole hour. Thomas. Excuse me, I apologize. That's a 1210-1240 to 1242. I'm saying that's an hour because that's pretty much. We got 20 minutes, 10 minutes before and 10 minutes after. Then you have an hour, but that's the whole hour. So if I did it for 12 to 1, then I did it from 1 to 2. It, it's still conducted. It's just not conducted in your 30 minute span, as you say, I didn't do the in between, but it's still conducted. You see what I'm saying? QUESTION no. THOMAS okay. QUESTION because you're talking about one to two, that's a whole hour and then we're not talking about within 30 minutes. Thomas but within the 30 minutes. That's not doing it every 30 minutes. It's like how it's supposed to be done. But then if I did it 12 to 1, it's still conducted, but it's not conducted the correct way around. Is still conducted, but it's not conducted the correct way. No. QUESTION no, because THOMAS do you understand QUESTION no, I understand what you're saying because if you're saying you're doing the round within an hour and you have to document it one round every 30 minutes so you can only then fill out one of these blocks, which one are you going to fill out or are you going to do the same thing in an identical place? 1209. Thomas yeah, you just he gets cut off. But at 12:30 will there be identical blocks identical times? THOMAS well, that's up to the person. QUESTION but what you're saying is that if you did it at 12:25 and ended at 12:35, that covered those 30 minutes. Thomas no, you still put that in the block. You're saying the start time and the end time, he's cut off by. THOMAS no, you still put that in the one block. If I did it from 12:25 and at 12:30 I would still put that in one block. And then this next one, whatever the time is, like I said, 1241 and then 12 to 1242. Because remember this is just a tier. This is not the whole round. This is just a tier. So what you're saying is, is this is 12 to 1 2, 12 10. This is just one tier. G tier. QUESTION Yup. THOMAS so then you've got 1211 to 1210. Remember this is just one tier. QUESTION sure. Each one of these different tier. THOMAS each one's a different tier. So it's taking a minute a tier. QUESTION right. THOMAS so that's one tier and then you've got another 1205-12. Indiscernible that's just one tier. I'm doing 1245. So then the whole thing. QUESTION yeah. THOMAS so now you have to get from 1205 to 1220 something is when that whole round was done in a 20 minute span. Do you got me or are you totally lost? QUESTION I understand what you're Saying you did it within the hour. Rodriguez Right. And your mark. But here's the thing. You're signing off or initialing according to the fact that you've done the count within the time period. Is that right or wrong? Thomas yeah, she initialed that. She did it between 12:09 and 12:10. No, no, let's forget about it. Just talk about you. Okay. When you do your rounds. Mr. Thomas When I do my rounds? Well, I haven't done a round in over two or something years. I do my rounds at 12 to 12:10. I mean 12 o' clock to 12:30 in that block. If I did it the incorrect way, I did it from 12. It's still I got it in between that time, but I still wrote 12 to 12:30. So 12 to 1. Question okay, I can't. He gets cut off by Thomas I don't even understand what your question is. Question no, no, I'll come back to this another part. When do you think these initials were put on? Thomas I don't know when she wrote it. I don't know when she did it. When did these round sheets get submitted? Thomas at the end of the day. Question at the end of the day? Thomas End of the whole workday. Not the end of every work period. Every eight hours. You wouldn't happen to know if she went back and signed these after? I wouldn't know. Initial log. Thomas Like I said, I lost track of Noelle. It sounds like it may. It looks like if this is what you're saying, that she did these rounds at 6:10, 6:11. What time? They're not in order. What time does breakfast get there? Thomas Breakfast is no standard time, especially not on the weekends. You're talking about on a Saturday. Question the last one she wrote was 6:13. You assume that she did it right before, you know, you discovered Epstein. Thomas could have been. Question that would be the assumption. Thomas that would be the assumption by the binder. I don't remember the time the food cart came up. Question but you didn't witness her actually signing. Thomas no. I don't know when she put her signature on that. Question. You don't remember, like talking like, hey, I'm going to grab the food cart. You take care of the round sheets? Thomas no. Question all right. Just so that the whole thing that we just talked about isn't convoluted. What we talked about before was that you've done the majority of the counts and rounds, but not all of them. Thomas I usually just plan on doing my rounds. Yeah. Question what's that Thomas I'm usually spot on with doing my rounds. Question. Well, when we talked about it before, you said you weren't always THOMAS I'm not perfect. Question. So we're appointing to specific ones. THOMAS I can tell you he gets cut off. Where the rounds. Thomas again cuts him off. That I wasn't perfect. Question. Right. The rounds and counts that you've conducted. You believe that you've conducted the majority of them? THOMAS I've done all my rounds. Yes. If you falsified some, but not a lot. When I say falsified, you you wrote in that you conducted them, but they weren't actually conducted. Thomas. No, that's not what I'm saying. I wrote what I wrote in my rounds for the count slips. We're saying Thomas cuts them off. Yeah, I think he gets cut off. That wasn't the first. Thomas Again cuts him off. You're talking about the counts. This is the rounds or the count slips. We're talking the indiscernible THOMAS I said I'm not I said that I'm not perfect. Question Right? Thomas. You know what I mean? I don't want to sit up here that I'm 100 perfect. What I'm saying is that I did my rounds. I was usually spot on with my rounds and I'm doing what I'm supposed to do as far as the course of my job. Question. Okay, so you're saying that these anytime that you worked in the shoe and you marked off people how have marked offs that you did them every 30 minutes? Thomas I don't know what people marked off. I only know what I do when I usually I get my stuff done. Question. So when you're in the shoe on all those overtime shifts that we just showed you, you're doing rounds every 30 minutes? Thomas I can't say that I don't do rounds every 30 minutes. Question. That's the question. Thomas. Okay. I can't say that I did rounds every 30 minutes. No, I can't say that I did the rounds every 30 minutes. So you're doing them most of the time, but some of them are marked off when they weren't actually conducted. Thomas. Maybe. Maybe. Question. Okay, and the same thing with the count slips. You've done most of the count slips. Thomas cuts them off. No, I usually get my counts done. Usually I get my counts done. Question. But not all of them. So if we go back and we find some times you didn't do it. Thomas. You can go back. He gets cut off. We're probably going to find if we're reviewing video, Thomas. Of the 14 years, you may have me one time where I didn't get one done. But even if we're just talking about like August or July, if we go back and review those, we're going to find at least a few that weren't conducted and that were written in. Is that correct? THOMAS I actually don't know. I honestly don't know. Question. Because I thought we already covered this and you already said. THOMAS we did already cover that, but I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know. Question. I thought my understanding from the conversation was that, yup, there's count slips that I've created in the past. Most of them conducted. Some of them aren't going, you know. Some of them, yes, I just signed them and, and put them the count number. But I, you know, especially between the hours of 12am and 5am Thomas that's all my overtime right there. It's 12am he gets cut off. Right? That's what I'm saying. Thomas. Except for one day watch. Question. Because there's that. So like not every 12am, 3am and 5am count was conducted during a shift. THOMAS I don't know. Question. Most of them, but not all of them. THOMAS I don't want to say. I want to say all, but honestly, I don't know. I want to say all. I want to say all, but then I'm not trying to get caught up in a lie and say, oh, no, this one time that I didn't just do that. Question. I'm just trying to reconcile what we talked about like two hours ago. Thomas. Exactly. Question. Because two hours ago, Thomas cuts him off, I said I wasn't perfect and so maybe I didn't get one done or not. I don't know. Like I said, I'm not perfect. I didn't get. Maybe I didn't get one of those, but I don't know. That's exactly what I said two hours ago. Question. You know, my understanding was that you, okay, so you're saying that you believe actually your count slips are. He gets cut off by THOMAS I believe my count slips are good. I believe they're good. Question. Okay, so when we go back and review the video, we're going to see that you were actually doing them. Thomas. You're going to see that I get my counts done. Yes. Question. And same thing for your rounds. Thomas. You should see me get most of my rounds done. Question. All right. Because now that you're saying this, we have to go back and review those things. Question I'll tell you that I'm saying that I should have gotten most of my rounds and if I didn't get them all done, I'm not trying to lie and say I didn't. Question can we go outside for a minute? Mr. Mitchell asks I'm here with Spinquest
- [59:07]
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- [59:25]
Interviewer / Questioner
E S T Spin Quest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. Redacted Answers Absolutely. We can take time out so they get back all right, the recorder is back on. It's currently 2:18pm on June 17, 2021. Again, everyone is present aside from I don't believe the other attorney is on the phone right now. And Mr. Thomas, I remind you again, this is voluntary and you are under oath. Is there anything that you would like to add with regard to the rounds and the counts that you have conducted and certified in the past prior to August 10, 2019? Thomas that I have not completed all my rounds. That's it. Question what about your counts and the count slips? Question or Answer I have not completed all my counts. Alright, so in the past prior the August 10, 2019, there are times that you were in the shoe that you didn't conduct all of your accounts but you did certify that they were conducted. Is that correct? Thomas yes. Question all right. The same thing for the rounds and there are times that you certified on the round sheets that they were conducted, but they were, or you or the person that you were working with certified they were conducted when they were in fact not conducted? Thomas yes. Question and I know you were saying like before like estimates, but like how often would that happen? Thomas I really couldn't tell you. Was it a regular occurrence? Thomas I really don't know. No. But did it happen in the past? Yes. But you're sure you're not sure how often? Thomas yes. Okay. Would you like to follow up with additional questioning on that question from another redacted investigator? During those times when you didn't commit conduct the rounds or the counts, was it only with Toa Nova? Toel Nova I mean Tova Noel Thomas I don't remember if I worked with her before or not. Question okay. Which other COs were you working with when this incident happened? Thomas I've been there for 14 years. I can't remember exactly who. I really don't know who I worked with at the time. Question so this has a span over 14 years? Thomas no, I don't know. I don't know when this happened or not. Okay. That's all. Okay. Anything else you want to add? Thomas no, not at all. Question Any further clarification? Thomas no, thank you. Question okay, it's fairly. Again, you can and you may. Thomas it's no problem. I'm okay. Question Is there anything you want to add to this specific instance? Thomas no, I don't. Question Is there a certain belief that you have as to why Jeffrey Epstein got into the place that he was. Is there any reason why you think that occurred? Thomas I can't speak for any of that. No. Question no. Okay. And you're sure that we want to conclude this? Question yes. Question so we don't have to revisit anything later on in the date. Anything you can think of? Nothing. Yet another redacted person. You're the case agent. So I want to make sure that's it. Nothing. Because we covered pretty much everything. Thomas no problem. I'm here whenever you all need me again. Alright, Let me just do a quick review and make sure that we're good and hopefully this can be it. Alright? Are you confident with all of your answers? Again, knowing that you're under oath, There is nothing that you want to clarify before we end this? This would be the time to do that. Thomas no sir. Question no additional information? Thomas Nope. QUESTION no questions that were missing that we should ask? Thomas Nope. Question all right, this is senior agent redacted. It's currently 2:21 on June 17, 2021 and I'm turning off the recorder. All right folks, there you have it. The full deposition of Michael Thomas after he was questioned by the OIG inspectors in the wake of Jeffrey Epstein's death. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.
- [63:36]
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Interviewer / Questioner
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