← The Epstein Chronicles
The Epstein Chronicles
Mega Edition: Michael Thomas And The OIG Witness Statement (Part 7-9) (5/16/26)
00:39:45
Michael Thomas was a veteran correctional officer employed by the Federal Bureau of Prisons at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in Manhattan — a federal detention facility — where Jeffrey Epstein was being held in the Special Housing Unit (SHU)...
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Interviewer / Investigator
What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to get right back to the interview given by Corrections Officer Michael Thomas, who ended up getting charged after he says he fell asleep the night that Jeffrey Epstein met his demise. And in our last episode we went to a break. Now they're back from the break and the questions are coming in again from the redacted investigator question. Some of those questions then you might not know the answers to who are the MCC supervisors on duty with responsibility for overseeing the SHU on August 9th and 10th, 2019? I'll actually provide you with this duty agent roster to help. So this is an MCC New York Daily Assignment roster for August Friday, August 9, 2019. Thomas the tenth question. August 10, 2019. So were the MCC supervisors on duty with the responsibility for overseeing the shoe on August 9 and 10, 2019? So who would have Is it true that the shoe lieutenant, if the shoe lieutenant is out of the office? MITCHELL I'm sorry, can we do one question at a time? Because you jumped to the second and he didn't answer it. QUESTION well, it's because I wanted to explain that the shoe lieutenant was out. MITCHELL okay, Question so who then would be responsible to oversee the shoe? And if the shoe lieutenant is out? THOMAS I Whoa, if the shoe lieutenant's out, who would be responsible? Question Would it be the ops or activities lieutenant? Thomas for my shift or for the shift that I was on at the time, that would be he gets cut off. Question Just what's your understanding? So for August 9, who would be like for instance, and we can start from you worked on August 9, who on August 9 would have been responsible for overseeing the shoe if the shoe lieutenant is not there? Thomas I guess the operations lieutenant question okay, and what does it say? Thomas oh, he gets cut off and then after redacted gets off. It looks like her duty was from I think that they were a little Different. But it shows on this that it was midnight to 8am I believe they actually worked 10pm to 6am but after she would leave at either 6am or 8am who would then become the person with oversight in the shoe? THOMAS I guess it's either he gets cut off. QUESTION Would it be redacted or redacted? THOMAS it would be both redacted and redacted. That's operations and the Activities lieutenant. QUESTION okay, and then after them it would be redacted and redacted. THOMAS oh, yes. Question okay. Mr. Thomas well, actually, well, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. QUESTION so is this how it works? These people up here, these are the operations lieutenant or activities lieutenant would have oversight of the SHU? Mr. Thomas well, if I'm not mistaken, if I'm not mistaken, I think, as I said, the captain is the shoes house. So I would say, well, direct supervisor would be first line Super. Would be the Operations Lieutenant and Activities lieutenant. QUESTION okay, and would it be he gets cut off by THOMAS that goes for redacted question one or the other. Would it be that one typically? THOMAS well, operations are ahead of the whole building. QUESTION so if you had an issue with the shoe, who would you contact? THOMAS the Operations Lieutenant, not the activities lieutenant? THOMAS well, activities doesn't come in until six in the morning. QUESTION sure. So if the Activities lieutenant and both Operations lieutenant are both present and there was I know you weren't working this date during that time, but if someone, when they're both on duty, who would be contacted Activities or operations or is it either? THOMAS you would just say whatever shoe needed. You say Operations, you say operations. It really depends on the situation. Depends on the situation whether you would call the activities or the operations. But nine out of 10 times, mostly with this you call operations. QUESTION and does activities lieutenant sit in operations? THOMAS what do you mean? QUESTION so how does it work? THOMAS they can be anywhere in the building. QUESTION Are those two individuals together? THOMAS no, normally not together. They can be anywhere in the building. QUESTION so would you ever call on, on say activities? THOMAS There could be an instance where you call and say activities when you don't want to bother. It depends. Like I said, depending on the situation. QUESTION okay, and when you were in the shoe on August 10, who would have been who would have been or had oversight as lieutenant on August 10th? Thomas redacted question redacted. Thomas yeah. Question lieutenant redacted. Thomas lieutenant, sir. Question okay, great. And then I think that she left at 6am who would have taken over that responsibility? Would it have Been redacted. Thomas yeah. Question okay, who is Lieutenant? And I don't know exactly how to pronounce his name, but. Redacted. Thomas he's redacted. No, on this. I'm sorry, who is he? Not looking at this. Do you know who he is? Lieutenant redacted. Thomas question. Lieutenant Thomas he's a lieutenant at McClure. I think he might be just a quarterly shoe lieutenant, I guess. Question he was the shoe lieutenant. Thomas yeah. Question okay. Do you know if he Was the shoe lieutenant in August of 2019? Thomas I don't remember. I don't know. Question so that's not something that you would know during the day? Thomas during the day, yeah. Question so that's nothing. He gets cut off by Thomas but it's like from the roster. I'm sure they posted it. It's probably somewhere on the roster. Somewhere. But I mean, if he says he's the shoe lieutenant, he's the shoe lieutenant. If he was the shoe lieutenant if it was his quarter to have it, then he's the shoe lieutenant okay. Do you know if he was off on August 9, 2019? Thomas I don't know. Question you don't know? Sure. Absolutely. Did you have any communication with lieutenant Redacted with with regard to Epstein being housed within the mcc? Thomas no. Question or in the shoe? Thomas no. Question Any kind of email or any kind of communication? When I say communication, I mean verbal. Thomas oh. Question Emails, anything? Thomas not that I know of. No. Not that I can recall. Question okay, so did Lt. Redacted ever provide you with any kind of special instruction or with regard to Epstein? Thomas no. Question did lieutenant Redacted. Ever tell you that Epstein was required to have a cellmate when he was assigned to the shoe? Thomas no. Question do you know who is operations lieutenant Redacted. I guess he was the operations lieutenant. Thomas yeah. Question Is he regularly the operations lieutenant? Thomas it. It he gets cut off. Question at the time? Thomas it varies. You know, it's a rotating shift, so they could have switched shifts at that time. It varies. Question okay, so According to this, August 9, Thomas this says that he comes in. Was it 6 and 8, 8 to 4 or 7 to 10, whichever one. Well, it says 8, so it would be 8 to 4. Question okay, I think that from my understanding, some of the lieutenants were actually working two hours before. Thomas yeah. Question So I think he was actually 6am to 2pm Although it's confusing on this by looking at the roster. So when he was on would have been responsible for Overall oversight of the shoe? Thomas. Yeah. If he was the operations lieutenant. Yeah. Question. Okay. Did you have any communication with redacted in regard to Epstein? Thomas. No. Question. Or the shoe? Thomas no question no. So not even any kind of. Not even talking about Epstein with anything to do with your responsibility in the shoe? With redacted. Thomas no question okay. And again, I'm going to say these names just to try and change things around. Thomas. Fine. Question. Did Lt. Redacted ever provide you with special instruction with regard to Epstein? Thomas. No. Question. Did Lieutenant ever tell you that Epstein was required to have a cellmate while he was assigned to the Shu? Thomas. No question. Who is Lt. Redacted. You don't even know Thomas he just started there, I think. I want to say he just started there. Just a transfer. He probably was there two months. I think I vaguely remember him. Thomas do you know if any had involvement or oversight of the shoe? I probably spoke to him twice. Twice. Do you know what those communications entailed? Thomas? Time. Anything to do with Epstein? No. No. Never provided with any special instruction with Epstein? Thomas no. He never provided any special instruction with Epstein. Never told you that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? Thomas no. Question. Okay. What about senior officer Specialist? Redacted. Thomas. Huh. I know her. Question. Yeah. So on August 9th, if you look at this, it looks like she was the activities lieutenant. Thomas. Yeah. Question. From what appears to be. It says 2pm to 10pm Obviously you weren't there at that time, correct? Thomas. Huh? I wasn't there. Weren't there at any time, did you have any communication with SOS redacted as far as Epstein? Thomas. Nope. Did she ever give you any special instruction with Epstein? Thomas. No. Question. Did she ever tell you that Epstein was required to have a cellmate? No. While assigned to the shoe? No. No. Now we're going to talk about the staff members in the shoe on August 10th when you were there? Thomas. Okay. Question. All right. What BOP employees worked in the shoe on August 10, 2019, from approximately 12:00am to 6:30am Mr. Thomas? Ms. Noel. Question. And yourself? THOMAS and myself. Question. Okay. And what was your role in the shoe on August 10, 2019? Thomas I was shoe two. She was shoe one. And what does that mean? Thomas it just means that it's just where you were assigned. It's just where I was assigned. I was assigned there for overtime. She was assigned there for overtime. Question. Is there a difference between Shu1 and Shu2, though? Like different responsibilities? THOMAS I couldn't. You have to read the Past orders, the post orders. I couldn't tell you. Okay, Thomas. It depends. I mean it really, really depends. That's definitely hard to explain because is there a hierarchy? No.
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Interviewer / Investigator
Remember, because she has. Well, it's no hierarchy. Question. Is the person with you the most experience in the BOP in command or how does it work when you're in there with another person? There's only two of you. Is there someone that's in charge? Thomas? I'm going to say. They're going to say shoe how it is the bop, how it is at the jail they say SHU is in charge. Question. Okay, Thomas. But then with shoe one or somebody with more time, like if I have more time with SHU1, how are you going to be in charge when you have more time? It depends. But then again I'm non custody. So it's all different dynamics when it comes to that. But they will say Shu1 is usually in charge. If you bid for shoe1. It if you did a bid, they'll say shoe1 is in charge of the shoe question. Okay. And you were shoe two that day? Thomas? I was shoe two that day, yes. Question. Okay, but because you had seniority. Is that Thomas. It doesn't play out like that. It doesn't play like that in a black and white sense. It doesn't play out like that. You're both equally responsible because she's shoe two and I'm shoe two. I mean it. It doesn't. And on paper it plays out that she's shoe one, she's in charge and I'm shoe two. But it really doesn't play out like that. Redacted. So you're both serving the same role. Thomas. We're both serving the same roles, especially on morning watch. Question. Okay, question. Same duties and responsibilities. Thomas. Same duties and responsibilities. Well, because you can't do one thing without the other. Okay. Because pretty much everything you do requires two people. Is that why supposed to. Yes. Okay. Thomas. Yes. And did you replace Thomas? Redacted. Redacted. Did you replace him at 12:00am Thomas okay, I guess redacted yes. If I can't remember if they said it was redacted yeah, okay. I couldn't remember it was somebody I had to replace. I don't remember who it was. Question do you remember having any interaction with redacted when you place them? THOMAS I mean, redacted is like me. He's both non custody, so we work. He's trust fund. Like how I'm trust fund. He's a material handler specialist. Question okay, like me. So I'll probably, I couldn't remember the exact communications that I started. I probably said, what's up? Smacked him on the back of the head. Redacted any kind of conversation? Question? THOMAS no, I really don't remember. Question okay, did you speak with him in regard to Epstein at all? Question no or answer no? QUESTION Anything to do with like Reyes leaving the Epstein being alone? THOMAS no. QUESTION what conversation did you have with Noel during your shift with regard to Epstein on August 10th? None. You don't remember talking about him? THOMAS I don't remember talking about him. QUESTION do you recall if anyone else was present at any time at all in the shoe on August 10, 2019, between the hours of 12am and 6:30am Thomas I'm sure a lieutenant came up. I couldn't tell you when I'm sure a lieutenant came up once or I'm sure the lieutenant came up. Redacted. And who would have been the lieutenant that would have come up? THOMAS Lieutenant redacted. Question okay, and do you remember that interaction at all when the lieutenant came up? ANSWER no, not really. QUESTION no. Thomas huh? All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode is can be found in the description box. What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with the Michael Thomas deposition with the OIG inspectors. Question would that have been probably around like 4am Thomas it's sporadic. There's no set particular time that she had to be there by three or two or one and anything like that. But I'm sure during the course of the day, during the course of the night, Lieutenant redacted came by the shoe. Mr. Okay. Thomas she always walks by. QUESTION do you remember if any other CO came by maybe around like 5:30am Thomas it's supposed to be another CO that comes on at 6 to 2. I don't recall them ever coming up. It says redacted but it's as you can see it's a 6 to 2 post but I don't around 5. I don't remember any other I don't remember any other CO coming in. Mr. Adacted okay, what about like a breakfast cart? Who would provide that? How would that be done? THOMAS well the breakfast cart that they push into the hallway, I wouldn't see the person down in the food service. I mean they push down the hallway and ring the bell and I don't remember who brought the food cart up, but the food cart came up and then we seen in through our peripherals outside the hallway. Question and then someone. THOMAS it's through a double door. Question and then you go and you get it. Thomas yeah. Then we go and retrieve it and we bring it inside the shoe yes. Question and do you remember who it was that actually retrieved it that morning? Thomas I really don't remember. I think she did. I don't know. I don't remember exactly who did it. Question okay, so the only person that you remember that entered the shoe was redacted. THOMAS yes. Question okay, what was her purpose for visiting the shoe on August 10th? Mr. Thomas she visited all the housing units. Operations. Lt. She walks around the building throughout the night. Question Part of her duties and responsibilities? THOMAS yeah, part of her duties. Yes. Question okay, can you just briefly explain what the process of entering and exiting the shoe. THOMAS Wow. I can't even remember the door. You call for the door. It's the 20. You call for the door to be opened. I can't remember the exact number of the door. You call for the door to be opened. They ring the bell, you call for the door to be opened. Then you have an inner door that's locked. You unlock that. You call for the person. The person comes in. If it's a warden or anything like that, it's usually a book that they have to sign saying that someone entered into, that they entered in or whatever the case may be they entered in and then you open the door. Question okay, so you initially said that they call who? Thomas well, one of the staff members inside call for the door. So me or Noel had to call for the door to come in. Question so someone comes at the outer door, the first door someone's got to go through, they call you guys in the shoe. Thomas no, they ring the bell. Question they ring the bell. THOMAS if it's the outer door, it's the outer door. Whichever number it is, the outer door, you ring the bell, it signals somebody's at the door. You look and you see. I see. I can see. And get your name, sir. You see whoever it is you call for the door. Look to see if the individual see redacted covering at the door. I call for the door. He comes in the door. Then there's another door that's locked. You unlock that door and they come in, and then you lock that door back. Question so my question is, though, on the outer door, who do you call? The control center? THOMAS yeah, you call the control center. Question okay, and then does someone come from the control center? Thomas looks down at it. Well, the control center verifies who it is at the door, and then they open the door. Question okay, and is there like a camera there? THOMAS yeah, there's a camera in the hallway. Redacted. Okay, great. So control center allows them to open the door first. Do they notify the people in the shoe that someone's coming in? THOMAS we notify them that someone's coming in. Question okay. THOMAS because we call for the door. Question so they ring the bell. You call control. Thomas can call control center. Question okay, and then they come to that. And then does control center have any involvement with them when you said you unlocked the door? THOMAS no. Then it's another key for another door, the inner door. Question okay, and is it just the people that are in the shoe that can allow someone to enter and exit? THOMAS for that inner door, yes. QUESTION okay, and who was it? How are the keys worked? Who maintains control of those keys? Mr. Thomas for the morning watch shift, there's one control key, and usually the number one person holds it. It's the key that they never leave the thing. I can't remember exactly what keys are on there. QUESTION when you say on there, where are they maintained? THOMAS they're maintained down in the control center. Question okay, but are they, like, hung up somewhere? THOMAS yeah, they're hung up on, like a dashboard that says control. Question Wait, I'm sorry. So I'm not confused. There's a key that you guys utilize to open that door that's in the control center? THOMAS yeah, that utilizes. Well, the control center has the master key for all the doors. Question I'm sorry, but the control center opens the outer door and then the inner door. Doesn't the people that are assigned to the shoe use a key? THOMAS yeah, that's the master key that never leaves a shoe. Question okay, so that's the key I'm talking about. Where is that key maintained? Question Answer Usually the number one on shoe will have like on their person. THOMAS yeah, on the person. Usually shoe number one holds that on the person the whole time. Question okay, so it's not hung up somewhere? THOMAS no, it's not hung up somewhere. The shoe one holds it on them at all times. Question okay, and do you recall on August 9th it was Noel? THOMAS I'm sure, I'm sure she had it. I'm sure she had it. QUESTION hey, it was Noel then. Thomas Because I had the oh, door keys and cuff key or if I had my cuff key. Question so if you have the door keys and the cuff keys, usually the other person is the one that has the outer key. THOMAS it rotates during the course of the day. It can rotate or anything like that. Question okay, Thomas when during the day when somebody's feeding or somebody's doing this and you the person would take this key, I'm going to go feed this row or I'm about to go do this. So if somebody's doing law library, it can rotate, but during the course of the night, usually shoe one has one key and then I come up with eventually grab another key. Redacted Question okay, so on August 10, you said you only recall redacted. Do you recall who allowed her to enter? Who used the key? Thomas I don't remember. Question no. THOMAS no, I don't remember who popped the door for her to come in. Okay. THOMAS it had to be either me or Noelle. It couldn't have been nobody else. And she was an authorized visitor. Thomas who was an authorized visitor? Thomas yeah. And were you with or Noelle was with redacted during her entire visit? THOMAS yes. Okay. Did redacted ever approach Epstein's cell? Mr. Thomas I don't know. I I don't remember. I don't remember. You don't recall. Do you recall any conversation with redacted with regard to Epstein? Thomas no. Question she didn't ask like how he's doing or anything like that? THOMAS no, I don't. Question and then who would have been allowed or allowed her to exit the shoe? Thomas Me or either me or Noel? Question okay, and is that the same process you would have to use a key to open it? Thomas you have to use a key to open the inner door. Then you open the inner door, secure the inner door, and then you call the control center to pop the outer door. Question okay. THOMAS exactly what it's called.
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- [25:53]
Interviewer / Investigator
Question and do you recall how long she was in there? Thomas I don't recall. Question okay, but she was the. Thomas operations lieutenant supervisor. She was the operations lieutenant. Mr. Thomas. Thomas lieutenant. Question which means that she was the supervisor in the shoe on August 10th from 12am until. Thomas she was the. I wouldn't say supervisor. Well, she was supervising the building on August 10th. Yes, quite. Question and with responsibilities for the shoe. Thomas Responsibilities for the shoe and responsibilities for the institution. Question do you recall having any other conversation with redacted during your shift on August 10, 2019? Thomas no question. By phone call or email or anything? Thomas no question and did redacted at any time ever provide you with special instruction with regard to Epstein? Thomas no Question and again, never told you that he was required to have a cellmate? Thomas no question. It didn't come up. The fact that Reyes left the day before and Epstein was without one? Thomas no question. That was just not communicated. How about lieutenant redacted. Who is that? Thomas lieutenant at MCC. Question was, did lieutenant redacted replace redacted at approximately 6:00am Are you able to tell from looking at this roster? Mr. Thomas well, this one says he came in at 8 to 4 or something. He gets interrupted. Yeah, they were two hours earlier. Thomas yeah, two hours. Yeah. But yeah, I remember seeing him. Question okay, do you recall having any interaction with Lt. Redacted prior to 6:33am on Aug. 10, 2019? Thomas no. And did Lt. Visit the SHU at all on Aug. 10, 2019, prior to 6:33am? Thomas no, not that I remember. Okay. And no communications though? Thomas no Question and Lieutenant didn't provide you with any special instruction with regard to Epstein? Thomas no question and he did not provide you any instruction with regard to Epstein having a cellmate? No. At any time even prior to that? No. Okay. Did the control center, R and D or anyone else call the Shu on August 10, 2019 about he gets cut off by Thomas that would be gone by the time I come in. All of those people would have been gone. Yes. In the control center? Thomas no, not the control center. That would be there, but R D would be gone. Redacted. All right, so let's say I did Control center or anyone else call the shoe on August 10, 2019, about Epstein's cellmate leaving or the need for Epstein to have another cellmate assigned. Thomas. No, that would have been done prior to my shift. Okay, but not during your shift. Thomas. Not during the midnight. No, the that would have been done prior. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with Michael Thomas and his interview with the OIG inspectors. Alright, so let's say I did Control center or anyone else call the shoe on August 10, 2019, about Epstein's cellmate leaving or the need for Epstein to have another cellmate assigned. Thomas. No, that would have been done prior to my shift. Okay, but not during your shift. Thomas. Not during the midnight. No, that would have been done prior. And as you guys can tell, this is a bit disjointed and Thomas is being very, very coy. Thomas. Not during the midnight. No, that would have been done prior. Question. Alright, so being that you've been in the BOP since 2017. Thomas. 2007. Question. Sorry, 2007. That's what I meant. I apologize. In that Epstein was required to have a cellmate and after reyes left on August 9, what should have happened? Who should have taken appropriate action? Can you just kind of walk me through how that process should have taken place? Thomas? I mean, by my knowledge, like you said, from being in for work, if he would have left, it would have been communicated to the officers via R D that somebody had left. Question. And how would have R and D would have been the first people to notify? Thomas Yes, R and D would be. Yeah. R and D would be the first people to notify that an inmate has been released. Thomas. Taken off count. Been released, taken off count. Question okay, and then who would R and D contact? Thomas. So R and D would contact both control center and he gets cut off the lieutenant. Thomas yeah. Question Would they at all contact the SHU or the place where the inmate was being released from? Thomas. Yeah, well, R D would contact SHU and let them know that somebody had been released. Mr. Adapted so in this case, Reyes was released on August 9th. Should have they called all three. They should call the control center or R D should have contacted. Looks like Lt. Redacted or potentially redacted as well as control center and the shoe staff. Mr. Thomas In a perfect world, R D will call lieutenant's office, call control and call the shoe. I'm sure somebody had to call the shoe and let them know that their base count had changed. Question okay. THOMAS One way or another, somebody called control to let them know that the base count had changed. Who did they call? I I don't know. But during that, because the Courts close at 8. Question okay, Thomas at the latest, yeah, I believe it's 8pm so somebody called and let them know R D got the first call that there would be somebody gone off your account. Question okay, so it wouldn't be like they called the ops lieutenant and the ops lieutenant would then call the shoe. R and D typically would actually call all three. THOMAS Usually, but I have been when R D had called all three, I've been here when the control center have called the shoe and let them know yo your base count has changed, such and such has been released or such a bunch has been moved to a different housing unit. Yeah, okay. THOMAS but usually you get a call either from R D or a control center. Question not the ops lieutenant. THOMAS I mean, I've been in when the lieutenant called, but not not typically the ops. Lieutenant. QUESTION all right, so it's typically control center. THOMAS Typically your control center or R and D will call and let you know that their base count have changed. Question and you've been present when that's actually taken place? THOMAS yeah, I've been present when that's taken place. Question in the shoe. THOMAS yeah, I've been present in the shoe when it's taken place. Question okay, so how soon after so Epstein is required to have a cellmate. How soon after Reyes departure should have Epstein been assigned a cellmate? THOMAS well, that comes from the shoe. Lt. And from operations and the staff member that had to be there. Question so who, who had the responsibility to fill Epstein cellmate requirement? Who had the responsibility to place Epstein with a new cellmate? THOMAS I don't know offhand I don't know offhand who had the responsibility, but it had to come from either the shoe? Lt. I would say first, since he's a high profile, I would say from the shoe. Lieutenant. Question okay, and were you we touched on this before, but in this specific instance, were were you there? THOMAS I wasn't there. Question so would have you, if you were there, would have been authorized to assign him a new cellmate? THOMAS if I was there and it came down from higher ups to assign somebody. Yes, if I was there, yes. Question. So if somebody else told you to. Thomas. Yeah, if somebody told me. If the shoe lieutenant told me that, oh, listen, he needs this and such like that. Yeah, just go like that. Because he's high. I wouldn't just put somebody in his cell. Question. Okay, what about shoe staff that weren't informed by higher ups? Shoe staff there could have they assigned Epstein with a new cellmate, even temporarily. Thomas. Could they have Question. Authorized? Thomas. Were they? Question. I meant that theoretically they could have. As in like, you can do anything, Thomas. You can do anything you want. He gets cut off. But were they authorized to have Thomas cuts him off? No, not with a high profile, no, I don't think they're authorized. Question. Okay. Thomas. I don't know offhand, but I wouldn't say from my knowledge for being. I wouldn't say that they're authorized. It would have to come from somebody else. Question. Okay, so the people that are working in the shoe, what action should have they taken as soon as they were aware that Epstein's cellmate had left? Thomas what are we talking about? Question. So if they're, you know, supposed to be conducting counts, supposed to be conducting rounds, as soon as they notice, hey, Reyes is gone, Epstein is required to have a cellmate. Is it their responsibility to notify someone? Hey, get on the phone and call the Ops Lieutenant control center or whomever. Thomas. I would call. I would call somebody, call somebody and let them know. Operations Epstein needs a cellmate. Question. Right. So he gets cut off now by Thomas. Shoe lieutenant, if he's there. Thomas. Or excuse me. Question. So the shoe lieutenant, Thomas. If the first person he gets cut off has gone on leave. Thomas. If the shoe lieutenant has gone on leave, call the operations lieutenant. Question. Okay. All right. Now we're going to talk a little bit more about what? About rounds and counts. So the cell count, what officially, what is that? Is it obtaining the official number of inmates in the housing unit? Thomas. Yeah. Question. Okay. And can you just explain the process? You touched on it before, but now can you actually explain like. So when you're in the shoe, for instance, and your he gets cut off, what time frame are we talking about? Question. So your time frame. Let's talk about when you're specifically there. You're there from 12am to 8am, correct? Thomas? Yes. Question. And you were there for both August 9th and August 10th.
- [37:04]
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- [37:35]
Interviewer / Investigator
When should you have been conducting the accounts and how should they have been conducted? THOMAS how it happens is one officer goes up, you have the door key to the grills, the outside grill. You open the outside grill, one officer walks around count verified, do one count, then the other officer go around count. And then you all combine your numbers at the end. You combine your numbers at the end of each tier and then you tally up the numbers at the end. Most people write them down on a piece of paper on your hand, back of the count slip. It could be a number of different various where people write them down, but one person goes around count, the next person goes around count. You all say, tell each other the number. I got 15, I got 15. Boom. Then you move on to the next tier. Do the same form for all six tiers and then you tally up the numbers at the end. QUESTION okay, so when one staff member is counting the inmates on each tier, Thomas cuts them off. They're the ones standing at the grill. QUESTION at the grill. And can you just explain what the grill is? THOMAS it's just the door. QUESTION Is the door closed or, or open? THOMAS Typically it's closed, but some people leave it open. QUESTION okay, so one person remains outside of the tier, basically at the door? THOMAS at the door with the key. QUESTION and then one staff member goes around, checks on all the inmates. When and how do they check the inmates? THOMAS they look inside if it's covered, they look inside a window, look inside of the glass. I can't tell you the diameter of it, but you look inside the glass and you see where the inmates are. Question now the 12:00am Is there a count that's supposed to be done at 12am and 3am Thomas 12, 3 and 5. Question all a.m. thomas all a.m. yes. Question and during that time, when you look at the window of the door, what is it you're supposed to see? Question you verify flesh, make sure you can see somebody, see somebody's skin. Do you need to see movement? THOMAS no, because they could be asleep. Does that mean you're supposed to hit the door or anything? Make sure no gets interrupted, See if they're all good? THOMAS they're still human beings? No, they're asleep at 12 midnight. Some are up playing chess, some are writing letters, some are asleep. You don't hit the door to make sure they're moving, do you shine a flashlight in touch? Thomas Some have a flashlight. You, you have. He gets cut off. No. Do you? Thomas yeah, I'll have a flashlight and I'll just flash and see live, breathing skin. They could be under the blanket or anything like that. Question okay, and is the purpose to make what's the purpose? Thomas to make sure nobody escaped and see a body inside? Question. A live body. Question or answer we have a live body. Question okay, A live body. Okay. And that is the process in the shoe, correct? Like not only in the institution, but in the shoe? Thomas that's the process in the institution, right? Including the shoe? Thomas yeah. Okay, and when conducting counts, do cos have to speak with inmates? Thomas we don't have to question no. Now explain to me what's around. Question or answer Same process. Question Same. THOMAS Same process. Question. So every 30 minutes you actually have to take account as well. Thomas no, you don't have to take the count. The same process without the count, the counting of numbers. You just walk around and verify somebody's inside. Mr. Just like you said, with the count, each one has to go around and see if their numbers match up. THOMAS no, you don't have to round and see if the numbers match up. No, you just verify that there's a body inside. But does somebody have to stand at the grill and other person walk down and have to switch places and do the same thing? Thomas yes. Question both ways. Thomas yes. Okay, so it's the same process, aside from Thomas aside from the count. Okay, so it's identical other than you're actually counting during the count. THOMAS the same. Exactly what you just said. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All of the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.
- [42:01]
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