Mega Edition: Tova Noel’s Account of the Morning Jeffrey Epstein Died (Part 14-16) (5/19/26)

Summary

The Epstein Chronicles – Mega Edition: Tova Noel’s Account of the Morning Jeffrey Epstein Died (Parts 14–16)

Episode Overview

This "Mega Edition" episode of The Epstein Chronicles delves deeper into the official interview of Tova Noel, one of the correctional officers on duty at the Metropolitan Correctional Center (MCC) the night Jeffrey Epstein died. Host Bobby Capucci breaks down a transcript of Noel’s testimony to Office of the Inspector General (OIG) inspectors, highlighting a culture of record falsification, confusion about procedures, and inconsistencies in inmate counts in the key hours before Epstein’s death.

Main Themes & Purpose

• Culture of Falsification at MCC: The episode exposes the widespread, normalized falsification of records around inmate rounds and headcounts.
• Systemic Institutional Problems: The discussion suggests these aren’t isolated acts but embedded practice within MCC.
• Human Failure and Ambiguity: Through questioning, Tova Noel’s testimony reveals unclear procedures, lack of proper guidance, peer pressure, and significant memory gaps on critical details.
• Specifics on the Night of Epstein’s Death: The episode covers detailed questioning of Noel on her duties, her recollection of that night, and the discrepancies in reported inmate counts.
• Responsibility and Accountability: The interviewers—and Capucci's analysis—keep circling back to issues of personal versus institutional responsibility.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Falsification of Rounds and Training Lapses

• Culture of “Pre-Populating” Records: Noel admits she, and others, regularly filled out round logs and count slips for times and rounds they didn’t actually perform. This was never corrected or questioned by supervisors.

  "That’s the culture of it there. I didn’t consider it as being like I’m falsifying the time or a document. No, I didn’t." (Noel, 03:38)

• Lack of Training or Policy Enforcement: She states policy wasn’t clear during training, and no one directly told her to falsify, but she learned by mimicking coworkers.
• Pressure and Normalization:

  "I just learn or lean on the senior officer or the people that I’m working with to do what they do." (Noel, 06:40)

• Responsibility After Recognizing Error:

  "I know now." (Noel, 09:47)
  She repeatedly admits she now knows these practices were wrong, but at the time she didn’t register them as serious violations.

2. Specific Events and Inmate Counts on August 9–10, 2019

• Pre-populated Sheets: Both rounds and count slips were often filled in advance or after the fact; rounds were not consistently done on schedule, if at all.
• Mismatch in Inmate Numbers:
  Detailed examination shows the number of inmates recorded at 10pm, 12am, 3am, and 5am did not match institutional totals, raising questions whether counts were done at all.
• Noel’s Partner Unavailable: She attests her partner, assigned for guidance, was exhausted, sleeping through parts of the shift, and did not assist in counts.

  "He was asleep." (Noel, 25:42)

• Memory Gaps and Uncertainty: Noel repeatedly states she cannot remember specifics of some counts, why there was a '+1' on count slips, or why her signature appeared without recalling doing the task.
• Admittance of Potential Error:

  "Maybe I miscounted because I counted by myself." (Noel, 31:10)

• Institutional Procedures Confusion:
  • The union rep and investigators clarify counting procedures, but confusion about “outcounts” and proper documentation persists.
  • Uncertainty whether counts were redone when numbers didn’t match.

3. Institutional Responsibility vs. Individual Actions

• Focus on Culture Over Willful Crime:
  Discussion often pivots to whether this is intentional deceit or just the norm within the institution.

  "It’s just because there’s a BoP formal way and there’s an MCC way of doing things that she’s assimilating to… That is what should happen. A person needs to have the strength to step up and say, ‘No’… this is a cultural institution problem." (Foy, 14:07)

• Interviewer's Intent: The goal is not to criminally incriminate Noel but to highlight systemic issues and failures.

4. Inconsistencies and Memory Lapses

• Count Slips and Procedures: Multiple points show Noel’s signature is on slips she does not recall making; she can’t explain anomalies or the ‘plus one’ notation.
• Chain of Events Unclear: There’s an ongoing inability to definitively explain what happened to the "missing" inmate or why numbers changed.
• Lack of Accountability: Noel doesn’t recall conversations with superiors—or being asked to redo counts—when discrepancies appeared.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Institutional Culture:

• Noel (03:38):
  "That’s the culture of it there. I didn’t consider it as being like I’m falsifying the time or a document. No, I didn’t."
• Noel (06:40):
  "I just learn or lean on the senior officer or the people that I’m working with to do what they do."

On Knowing Right from Wrong:

• Interviewer (10:26):
  "You knew what you were writing was wrong, but you did it because it’s how they do it."
• Noel (09:47):
  "I know now."

On Count Confusion:

• Noel (25:56):
  "He was asleep."
• Noel (31:10):
  "Maybe I miscounted because I counted by myself."
• Noel (35:20):
  "You can miscount. So I’m not saying that the number couldn’t have been off. But as far as the count, like I counted it could have been a miscount, but I counted."

On Personal Responsibility:

• Foy (14:07):
  "A person needs to have the strength to step up and say, ‘No’… A whistleblower or whatever. No, she didn’t do that. Right."
• Interviewer (17:19):
  "This isn’t all about you. It’s about the institution."

On Investigation Frustration:

• Noel (36:40):
  "But see, I don’t remember that at this point. Like I mean I wrote 73. I counted. I remember Thomas having a conversation. The number was switched to 72 but I don’t remember like physically like adding it up like I don’t remember that."

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Focus | |-----------|--------------| | 00:25 | Start of Tova Noel interview with OIG Inspectors | | 03:20–10:30 | Institutional record falsification discussion | | 13:23 | Recap and transition to August 10 events | | 15:00–25:00 | Questioning about specific counts and procedures on 8/9–8/10 | | 25:05–35:00 | Inmate count inconsistencies and memory gaps | | 35:50–end | Recap and unresolved questions about shifts, missing inmate, and documentation |

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Summary Flow & Usefulness

This episode provides a granular, often frustratingly ambiguous, but valuable look at the compounded human and systemic failures in MCC on one of the most heavily scrutinized nights in recent memory. Through detailed transcript review, we see how normalized misbehavior, lack of oversight, and unclear accountability can have consequences in high-risk environments. Bobby Capucci’s approach (though this episode stays mostly within the transcript) highlights how even those at the center of historic events can be as much products of failed systems as purposeful bad actors.

If you haven’t listened, this summary provides a clear map of the chaos, confusion, and broader questions of responsibility raised by Tova Noel’s testimony—key for anyone seeking clarity on the circumstances surrounding Jeffrey Epstein’s death and the workings of the MCC.

Transcript

[A]

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Visit your nearby Lowes. What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right back in to the Tova Noel Interview with the OIG inspectors. Question. Alright, so during your time in the shoe, which I think was from around June 24, 2019 through August 10, was it on many of those days that you were working in the shoe, this is how it was done? Noelle. Yes. Where the rounds weren't conducted and they weren't pre populated or populated at the end. Yes. And it was never spoken of. No. And you never asked, hey, why are you, y', know, certifying that we're conducting rounds that we're not actually conducting? Noelle I never asked. Never asked. Noelle no. Question. And they never told you to do that though? Noel. Who? Question no one ever told you that this is the way that it's done? Noel. I mean, that's the way that I've seen them do it. But no one ever she gets cut off. You observed it, you saw that people did it? Noel. Because I never asked. So nobody ever told me, but that's just what I saw. Question. So on August 9th, you believe that that's the first time you filled the sheet out? No one actually directed you or instructed you. That's how we do it. You just saw people do it that way. Noelle. Right. Question. All right, and this goes back to. I understand your attorney did say that you know now that it was wrong. Noelle. Yeah. Question. But at the time, you thought it was okay to certify times that, you know, you conducted rounds when they weren't conducted. Noelle. Because that's the culture of it there. I didn't consider it as being like I'm falsifying the time or a document. No, I didn't. Is this something that's addressed in training and policy? Hey, when you conduct a round, it's documented at the time you conducted it. No. So it's not in the policy that I provided for you? Noelle. I don't know if it's in the policy, but in training you're just told to conduct rounds and counts. Question and document it at the time it's being counted. Noel and document it. Question Right. So it's a cultural, it's a cultural falsification of records. Ms. Noel and McC yes. Like the lieutenant told me to sign. I did shoe training and I didn't. Question Absolutely. There's a lot of it. Yeah. Noel yeah. Question so my point being is it sounds like this is a cultural problem. Noel yes. Question but you have to, as a person who received a college degree, a person that went to, you know, standard conducted ethics training, you have to know and look, I understand other people are doing it and you're saying, I'm going to do what they're doing. But you have to know, you have to question like, hey, I didn't conduct this training, I didn't conduct those rounds. So you had to know that you shouldn't have done it. Noel but she gets cut off. You're saying that you're doing it because that's how other people are doing it, but you're all doing it wrong, correct. Noel but in a case like this, who am I telling because she gets cut off? I'm not asking you to tell anybody. NOELLE no, no, no. When I say telling, I'm like, it's okay, I understand you're saying that I know that it's wrong, but I'm saying like, okay, like how the lieutenant, like when you said to me, does she know that I didn't do the training? And I said, yes, she knows that, but she still told me to sign that. Question Absolutely. Noel so again, I'm not going to think, like I said, I'm not thinking of this as like I'm falsifying a document. It's just the culture of MCC and I just followed, I'm new, I don't know, I just learn or lean on the senior officer or the people that I'm working with to do what they do. Question okay. Noel or to guide me. Question let's ask it this way. Did you know that you were supposed to conduct rounds every 30 minutes? Noel yes. Question Yes. Did you know that those rounds that are supposed to be conducted every 30 minutes are supposed to be documented on the sheet? Noel yes. Question and they're supposed to be documented on the time that you conducted those rounds? Noel no, because nobody documents it on the time. Question I understand that that's why you did it, but do you understand that in training every 30 minutes and they're supposed to not as it's corrected, they're not supposed to be on the exact dot 30 minutes, you're supposed to do it within like a 30 to 40 minute window, correct? So that's not a regular occurrence? Noel yes. Irregular rounds. Question Irregular rounds Correct. So you know that you're supposed to do them every 30 to 40 minutes? Noelle yes. Question two rounds an hour and those rounds are supposed to be documented? Noelle yes. Question on that sheet? Noel on that sheet. Question so obviously that leads to the training of they're supposed to be documented when you conduct the rounds, correct? Noel okay. Question so I do understand that you're not doing it because other people that you just mentioned did it that way as well. You have to know that you were supposed to do it the way I just explained, correct? Noel I know now. Question well, you had to know then too, because it's like you're supposed to do a 30 minute round and you've got a document when you did the 30 minute round, correct? Noel I never seen anybody do that that I've worked with. Question so you never saw redacted or redacted do it that way? Noel so like when she gets cut off and hey, if everybody's doing it wrong, obviously that's a huge problem. Noel no, but what I'm saying is like I'm not next to them. Like, okay, let's say if they're doing the sign in sheet, I'm not. That's why, like how you're saying redacted. Like if redacted is turning a sign in sheet, I don't necessarily have to be next to him. I could only tell you that the people that I've seen do. I don't know. Like I can't speak for everybody on this question, right? But what I'm saying is, you know that you need to conduct 30 minute rounds. You know that those rounds need to be documented. You know those rounds need to be documented on that sheet, correct? Noel Correct. Question Therefore you know that what you were doing was false, correct? Noel. As in putting in the time and the time that I conducted the round and I didn't do that at time. See again. Question so you knew it that what you were writing in there wasn't true and accurate as you wrote it, correct? Noel Correct. Question and the reason you did it was because the people that you observed in there before did it that way. Noel Correct Question Is that correct? I think that's how defies us any Question so you knew what was wrong, you knew what you were writing was wrong, but you did it because it's how they do it. Noel Right? I'm not thinking it's wrong, like specific to the times because I've never seen it done every 30 minutes. Every 30 minutes. Every 30 minutes. Question right. So it's always been falsified ever since you've been there, it's always been falsified record, is that what you're saying? NOEL at the time that I've worked and the people that I've worked with, I've never seen it done every 30 minutes like that. No. QUESTION Correct? NOEL I've never seen it. QUESTION so you're trained on conducting 30 minute rounds and documenting when the 30 minutes your experience has taught you that that's not how they do it there. They always falsify those records and just put in whatever in the order to satisfy the 30 minute requirement. Noel Correct Question okay, just one follow up question from a different investigator. You mentioned that that was the first time those two days were the first time you filled out the round sheet in the shoe. Prior to the shoe, before you got to the shoe. Did you fill out those round sheets? Noel Prior to working in the shoe? QUESTION in the shoe did you fill out NOELLE Cuts them off on other units. We don't have round sheets like this. QUESTION do you have to conduct rounds in the other units? NOELLE yeah, but it's not documented on a round sheet. QUESTION but this was the first time you would have had to NOEL in the shoe it's documented on the sheet. QUESTION all right. So is it the first two times that you can recall documenting Are we going to find other round sheets that you she cuts them off. The first two times that I can recall she gets cut off. These were the first two times. These two times NOEL that I recall documenting. Question all right. And did you FOY cuts him off have you gotten to this yet? You know, I'm trying to lay back Question Absolutely. And let you do your thing. But at some point you'll learn she never worked midnight to 8. Question Yep. Foy before right. And there's a reason. Question and we have that do you want to give her a duty roster, her daily assignment so that she can see Foy Right. Question where she gets cut off by Foy. So there were events in her personal life because she used to do that come in early to avoid being mandated. Question sure. But she couldn't do it that day and got mandated. So now she's the officer in charge for the first time at midnight with a senior officer even though he's really worked there regularly and he's not there for guidance as to speak. Question sure. And you know. Question. So this one, this was your daily assignment. And I see where it says you're relieved without pay for a great amount of time up until it looks like 6, 26, 20, 19, you were assigned shoe number three. And then through that we're looking at is 8, 10, shoe number one. So if you want to reference this, on the days that you worked assignments, you were on. Foy Where? Question well, that's the thing. So I understand that you're saying is that this is your first time and she was the one in charge and she wasn't having an officer in charge to confer with, I guess, Foy Wright. Question and that's why I'm getting back to the the fact that she observed, you know, she knew that she, she was writing was false, but she did it because she saw everybody else doing it falsifying records. FOI so part of it is. Right. Right. And you're not wrong when you say, well, that's falsification of documents and all that. Right. And I can understand and appreciate how it looks that way. Question. Sure. Foy. Right. And I'm not, we're not disputing that. Okay. But I'm thinking that there's also another way. It's like, well, inaccurate. Right. But that's not committing a fraud to try and deceive the institution. Because I just want to collect a paycheck and not do my job. It's not for those reasons. It's just because there's a BoP formal way and there's a MCC way of doing things that she's assimilating to. That's not the proper way. That is what should happen. A person needs to have the strength to step up and say, no, a whistleblower or whatever. No, she didn't do that. Right. Question And I can appreciate that. And that's why I lay this and say that this is a cultural institution. Problem. Foy. Right. Question and I agree with that. And I'm saying this was wrong that she observed this and those people that were doing that were absolutely wrong. All I was trying to get to is that we can all agree that, you know, that every 30 minutes is when the round is supposed to be entered in there. Foy. So he gets cut off, you know, and she knows that she was entering the wrong information when she did it. Foy. We don't disagree. She understood I didn't really do a 603 round or whatever. Right. But I don't know if she experienced that as I'm falsifying records. Which she is in her mind doing is, well, we're supposed to do rounds, but no one ever really does the. The every 30 to 40 minutes. But you got to fill out certain paperwork that's required. So you fill out the paperwork. Now, I know from looking at the discovery, not every single officer did that right. Question. Sure. Foy. I saw in discovery that there were people there and there would be blanks where the round should have been. So they accurately reflected, I suppose, when they did. But I think a lot more common is that it's not

[A]

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[B]

Visit your nearby Lowe's. Right. So she followed the strain question. Absolutely. Boy, she did not chart her own path, which is with, you know, why she's got to take responsibility for that part. Question. And that's also why we discuss. This isn't all about you. It's about the institution. Foy. Yeah, Understood. Question. And this seems like it's an institution problem, and that's awful that you're one year on and this is what you observed this entire time. Foy. And I only say that because I feel like in watching your interaction, you're kind of talking past each other on your focus on if it's the falsification, knowing it's wrong. And she's like, well, yeah, but I'm just kind of doing. I'm not trying to commit a crime. Like, it wasn't like. And that's kind of been my pitch the whole time. She wasn't out to commit a crime. This isn't about hiding my behavior because Jeff Epstein died. Right? It's all there. Right. Even the theory of the case is when asked what happened, we messed up. That's the like, tell the truth. There's no deceit in frustrating the investigation or the response. Now we're here. We're trying to clear it up. We understand the job that you have, you know, address some of the specifics here, but it's a much more broader vision. So we're trying to bring light to that. She's doing the best she can to do it. I think the issue is we're doing this almost two years later. Right. That's the problem. And he gets cut off. And the next day might be a little easier to address. Foy. Right. Question. So. And we can jump right into that. Foy. Okay. All right, so we're gonna wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're gonna pick up where we left off with a Tova Nowell interview with the OIG inspectors. Question. So on August 10, is that also in front of you? I can't remember at this point what I provided you the round sheet for August 10th. Foy. The round sheet. Noel. Yeah. Question. Did you conduct any rounds on August 10th that are not. NOEL cuts them off No, I did not. Question and did you also pre populate that? Noel yeah. Question all right, so you know, everything you wrote in there, again, I understand that you said this is what you observed. No one told you to do it this way because you saw other people doing it this way, but you knew that you didn't conduct any rounds that you listed on the sheet. Noel. Yeah. Question. Correct. And what about cell counts? And I'm only trying to move past because we have a lot more to get through. Question. But if there's something else you. You want to address on there? Foy yeah, no, we're good. Question so the cell counts. When did you conduct cell counts, sorry, Inmate counts during your shift in the SHU on August 9, 2019? Noel. Oh, that's the 9th. Question. August 9th. So we're talking now, the 4pm and 10pm Noel 10 question did you conduct those counts? Noelle 10. Question just 10. Not the 4PMS Noel not at 4. Question now, do you recall actually conducting the 10 as you're supposed to do it? Noel no, because my partner was on a triple. Question okay, so he was doing a triple shift. Noel. Yeah, he worked three consecutive shifts. Question. Okay. Noel. So I conducted the 10 by myself. Question. And you actually went around and and counted every inmate? Noel yeah. Question and we want to show you the count slips, Redacted all of it. Question we'll start, I guess, with just August 9th because we don't want to give her too much stuff. All right, so what I'm going to show you here is the first page. It's going to be like the institutional count. And it's going to show you like, za. Is za correct for the Shoe. Did you know that that is what ZA stands for? Noel I don't remember. Question. All right, so ZA is going to be the number that's going to reflect for the shoe. And then I'll tell you what the total number is in the count on this page. It'll say 75 and it looks like this was beforehand. And then at the end you're going to see that actual count slips and I'm going to ask you, you know, who was on the count slip that you filled out and who else was on there with you? Noel okay. Question. In this instance, I believe it's on the second to last page so that you don't have to flip through all this but you can let me know if that's accurate. So sorry, it looks like that one was 4pm and I believe this one is at 10. Noel so let me Indiscernible question. You went indiscernible question this is 10pm Noel. Huh. The union rep pipes in when you call into control. This is how they determine what your count matches their learning base count. Right? So ZA is 9 South ZB is 10 South. Noel okay. Union Rep. They match. This is all of our accounts. Right? And then what they do is this is at the handwritten outcome or outcount from the employee. This is what they indiscernible entry. This is what's keeping this entry and it reflects on here. These are the outcount areas an inmate could be right. So five souths count 75. Their unit count is 78. Three people were in food service. Noel. Okay. Union Rep. So when they actually counted living breathing bodies they only had 75. Noel Right. Union Rep. So now just apply that to the shoe. This is your shoe count. You had a one inmate out counted to attorney conference. Noel. Okay. Union Rep Right. So you come down. Here's one. So the actual count, the total count that's supposed to be there is this number. This is the inmate out counted. And this is what Whoever counted called in Noelle. Huh? Question. Or should have called in Noelle. Huh? Union Rep. That number is supposed to match. These are all outcounts. That number is supposed to correspond with the count slips for your respective housing unit. Right? And then I guess he's asking you to review your respective Tell me if I'm wrong. Review your respective count slip for your unit on your shift. And then I guess you wanted to confirm a signature on gets cut off. Sure. I just wanted to see the second. So one page back that second to last page. Can you just find if There is a counselip that you created or signed in there. Noel I see here it says it has my name on it. It says 4pm Count. I don't recall at 4pm Question does it look like your signature or your handwriting? Noel where the Noel is? No. Question how about your signature? Noel the signature looks like my signature but where the Noel is? No, but I don't recall doing. I may have done the four. I don't recall but I know I did. 10. Question all right, so you don't recall if you did the 4pm or not? Noel I don't remember. Question. You don't recall? Noel I don't remember. Question all right. What's the number that's listed on there on that count? Noelle75. Question and that is your actual signature? Noel yes. Question all right. And it says 75. Noel yes. Question okay, what is there on the first page? What does it say that the number is? And that's the count for the shoe. Noel75. Question 75 okay, so your signature. You're claiming you can't recall 4pm Noel I don't recall Question all right and I'm sure that in preparation for this, did you discuss at all or review or kind of, you know, at two years now did I do the 4pm count or not? No. Noelle no Question okay. Do you remember who called in that count? Noelle no Question alright, that's fine. Now the 10pm count is next to you. Foy, right here. Can you do the same thing? Go to the last page. It could potentially be on the last page or potentially the second to last. You're going to look for anything you recall you signed one or you documented. Okay Is there someone somewhere that you signed that you signed on that? Noel yeah. On the bottom question and who was and I do apologize, let me before I even go to that, who else was on the counp with you at 4pm Noel redacted. Question Redacted. All right, so he signed that one or you. Noelle According to the sheet. Question do you know if they were probably Pre populated? The 4pm is also how you did the rounds. Did you also pre populate the count slips? Noel on the midnight date but not on she gets cut off. Not that one. Noel no, not this one. Question do you know who filled it out? I know it's your signature but you said it didn't look like your handwriting. But for the 4pm now we're talking about. I'm just reverting back. Did you know who actually completed the consulate? Noel the count slip who filled it out? I don't recall. Question no but it was you and redacted that were on it. Noel. Just being redacted. That's out there. Question and this didn't look like your handwriting? Noel. For Noel No. For the signature Question Right. For the. And I think you're looking at 10 right now. I'm just reverting back to the four. That doesn't look like your handwriting as far as counting out it just looks like your signature on it. Noel. Yeah. Question and you simply just don't recall if you did or did not do that count? Noel I don't remember. Question all right. The 10pm now we're looking at who was on that with you? Noel? Me. And redacted question and 2 Can you tell by looking at the handwriting? Who filled that out? Noel? I don't remember but I signed. Question does that look like your handwriting that filled it out? Can you tell? Noel no Question. You're not able to identify your handwriting? Noel? No, I'm saying this doesn't look like my handwriting but that's my signature. Question. Oh, that's your signature but that doesn't look like you actually completed the slip. I'm asking did you complete that slip? Noel Yeah. I don't and this is right here. The783 I wrote that but 10. I don't write my numbers like that. Question. Okay. Noel. So yeah, I don't put the 00 in a cross. Question. Is that the indiscernible question? Is there anything next to the 73 on that? Noel? I put plus one. Question. What is that for? Noel I don't remember. Question. You don't know why you put 73 plus one? Noel I don't remember Question. Is that abnormal to write 73? Plus one? Question. I I don't even know they there's a plus one on there. Question. But you wrote 73 and somebody else may have put the plus one. Noel. I don't remember but the 73 is mine. Question okay. And you don't know what plus one would mean? Noel. No Question all right. And then what is the first page that the institution counts were then? For za. Noel? 73. Question 73 all right.

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So.

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So again that's plus one. You're not sure? Noelle? No. Question and now can you just explain to me you said you specifically recall conducting that count? Noelle? 10. Yeah. Question. And you actually went through and counted all the inmates? Noel all the inmates. Question. On every tier. Noel. Yeah. Question. But it was pre populated consulate. Noel. No, that was for the midnight to 8 in the morning. Question all right. Noel we filled that out before. Question so 10pm wasn't pre populated? Noel no. Question you did that after you conducted the count? Noelle yeah. Question all right. But not with another co. Noel no. Question and who was the CO that was supposed to have done it with you? Noelle. Redacted question and redacted did sign it even though he didn't do it? Noel yes. Question and did you have any discussion with him at that time? Noel he was tired. He was on a triple. Question okay, and what did you say? What did he say to you? Noel he was tired. Question did he leave then? Noel no. Question or did he just stand there and watch you do it? Noel no. He was asleep. Question he slept. All right. So so he was sleeping when that was conducted? Noel yeah. Question okay, do you know how long he slept for? Noel until it was time for him to go home? Question so like 10 to 12? Ms. Noel Approximately. Question okay, but you're certain you conducted the count? Noel Absolutely. Question okay, and are you confident that number is correct? Noel what? The 73? Question yeah. Noel yeah. Question all right. Now let's show the 12am does this go there? Question it's indiscernible. All right, so before I guess first, can you go to the back of the thing and see the counts? Find the count slip. Can you find if are you on there? Check the last page. Noel yeah. Question and is this the one that you said you pre populated? Noel yeah. Question okay, and did you fill the count slip out? Noelle Thomas Question Thomas Did? Noelle Yes. Question and you signed it? Noelle yes. Question so Thomas is the one that pre populated it? Noelle yeah, we filled all of them out. Question O. You filled out all but three? Noel yeah. He wrote and I signed. Alright. So the 12 and the 3 and the 5, you did it all at once? Noel yeah. Question all right. And then what number is written there? Noel73. Question now look at the first page. What number is written there? Noel72. Question all right, so what happened with that? Noel I don't remember. Question at what point did an inmate disappear? Noel I don't remember. I called in 73. Question if you called in 73 did you actually count 73 people? Noel well we didn't count at 12. Questions question I know but at 10 you said you did. Noelle did. Yes. Question so at 10 you did. But there's only 72 people there at 10. So did you actually do the count at 10? Did you call did you actually count the inmates Noel I actually counted all the inmates at 10

[A]

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[B]

Visit your nearby Lowe's Absolutely. Count it all. Question and you counted at 73 of them? Noel I actually counted all the inmates at 10. Question so where did the one inmate go? Noel I don't know. Question do you remember any inmate being removed from the shoe after 10pm Noel no. Question all right, can you show her this count? Here's the 3:00am Count. Can you see the top sheet right here? Can you find za how many? What number is it on that? Noel 72 question all right, so 72 again on that. That's the institution count. That's how many people are actually in the shoe. What does it say on the count slip? Noel 72. Question 72. So what happened between 10 and 3? Noel why the numbers are I don't know. Question why are the numbers different? Noel I don't remember. Question by the union rep Let me see this again. Noel yeah. Question it's in the indiscernible question and I don't dispute that maybe you did around a 10. Are you sure you did account? Noel no, I did account at 10. Question you counted all the inmates and it added up to 73. Noel because that's what's on I wrote 73. Question right. And then if you notice you wrote 73 again at 12. Noel that Thomas wrote it at she gets cut off. But there's actually 72. Noel 12. And then on the front it says 72 and then the count. But then if the numbers didn't match the count wouldn't have cleared. Question and that's what I'm going to ask you. Did you have any conversation? So here's the 5am and this is also says 72 for the official count and I believe you guys wrote 72. How did you discuss this with anybody that the counts were off? Noel no, I think Thomas discussed Thomas was on the phone because the count wouldn't have cleared if it said 72 and 73. But I think Thomas had a conversation But I didn't have a conversation with anybody. Redacted did you have a conversation with Thomas with regard to the count being off? Noel no Question so if you did all the Pre populating at 12 why does 12 say 73 and the other two say 72 and 72? Noel I remember at the other one Thomas said that he had the count slips all and I couldn't find I couldn't find the count slip and I remember I rewrote it but as far as why the count changed to 72 I don't remember why. Question well I can tell you why because the count was off. Noel Mm. Question so that's what I'm asking if you actually did that 10pm count how did you get 73? Noel I don't know. Question but you're sure you counted 73? Noel I absolutely counted at 10. Question but no inmates left after 10? Ms. Noel no, I mean I remember I counted by myself and I indiscernible counted with somebody and we compared the numbers but I counted at 10 question could have you been mistaken during your count? Noel Probably. Question do you believe that you were probably mistaken? Noel Probably Question okay, so you're certain you conducted the count? Noel yes Question but you think probably just counted wrong? Noel Wrong wrong maybe because it's 72 after question okay and you went through and you tell me how account works do you add them up? Question yeah like I write it like K tier and then I write it L tier and then I write it and then we add it up. Question all right, do you want to follow up with that at all? Question do you recall that night during your shift? Noel yeah. Question so let's say from when you came in from 4pm or did you come in at 2? What you said? Noel 4. Question 4 to midnight were there any inmates removed from the shoe? Noel When I came on? Question yeah. Noel not that I know of. Question if there were inmates removed from the shoe, you have been aware of it? Ms. Noel I mean if I was there yeah Question do you recall and so you don't do you recall two inmates Noel Going to suicide watch? Yeah Question do you recall about that? Noel yeah. Question what happened with that? All right folks, we're going to wrap up right here and in the next episode we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode we're going to pick up where we left off with the tova Noel Interview with the OIG inspectors Question what happened with that? Noel I'm not really sure because I remember redacted told me but I remember the two inmates didn't go to suicide watch. But I don't recall as far as indiscernible Question did that happen during your shift or did it happen before your shift? Noel During Question during your shift Was that after the 4pm count? Noel I think if I could have been after 4pm But I came in at 4. Question okay, if you look at the numbers on the 4pm Count, is it correct? Noel Indiscernible it says 75. I don't think it says 4. Noelle no, it's at the bottom of the page. It says 75. Question and then two people went to suicide watch. Correct? Noel Correct. Question all right. But no one else left the shoe. Correct? Noel no. Question so that's what we're saying. Somewhere between 4pm and 3am either an inmate went missing or the counts weren't conducted or they were off. Noel the counts were off. Question they were off. But if your job was actually to count the inmates, how are they off? Usually what you're saying is you're just taking the number. You're pre populating this a lot of times saying what your number you believe it's supposed to be in there. But if you actually conducted the counts, you would actually know that There was only 72 correct? Noel I counted. Question but you couldn't have counted 73 because Noel cuts in. Well that's what I'm saying. Maybe that's where the error is. But I counted. Question no, see at 4. At 4. Count. Question you counted but you counted wrong. Noel yes, that's what I'm saying because I absolutely counted but I remember redacted. Was tired, he was on a triple and he was falling asleep. Question Again and I'm not saying you didn't conduct around. I'm asking if you conducted a count. Noel and I went and counted. Question okay. And you're positive of that? Noel That I counted? Question Yup. Noel Yes. Question okay. Noel but the number could have been off. But I counted. Question okay, that's why he gets cut off by Noel because if I was counting with somebody, if I would have said 73, he would have counted and he would have got 72. That's why you've got to count with two people. Question sure. And at the 12am you said you remember Thomas speaking to someone. Noel on the phone? Question but you don't know who? Noelle no. Question and did you have any conversation with Thomas at that time? Noelle no. Except for the change the count slip and I signed Question he changed which count slip? Noel the one that had 72 on there. Question so he changed the 3am and the 5am at that time. Noel he changed one of the count slips and then I was looking of or for the other one and I couldn't find it and then I did I remember I filled out one question but a few so you're saying I thought you said at 12am you pre populated all the count slips? Noel we did. Question so but the 12am says 73. Noel yeah question and the 3 and the 5 say 72. Noel right. Question so is the 72 that was submitted and then he talked to you and then he gets cut off by Noel well I believe that because then it would have been when it got submitted it would have been that the count wouldn't have cleared it would have been off so then it would have been indiscernible it would have been or had to have been changed. Question okay, the count slip would have had to have changed is what you're saying? Noel yes. Question and is that the time? Noel if the count doesn't match what's on here then it would have had to have been changed. Question if account is off like it was, what happens? Noel you redo the count slip and redo the count in this case do you recall them telling you to redo the count? Noelle no Question no and did Thomas say hey I just spoke to the lieutenant and they said to redo the count? Noel no Question no Noel Question do you remember redoing the slip that says 73 whereas the institution counts as 72? Noel Let me see Question Because I just want to make sure because the video shows that no counts were done at 10. Noel I saw that also in the indictment but I did count at 10. Question and this is again part of the whole under oath thing because there were only 72 people on there. So if you're only saying you did the count I just want to reconcile that now before I have a potential problem in the future. Question so redacted never assisted you with the 10pm count right? Noel no question so you wrote 73 plus one? Noel I wrote 73. Question so you don't recall the plus one? Noel the plus one? I don't recall that. Question does that look like your handwriting? The plus one? Noel I don't know Question you don't know and when did redacted sign that? Would it have been before he went to sleep? Noel yeah Question Would it have been much before 10? Noel I don't remember the exact time. Frame. Question. When you wrote that count slip, was the time accurate to when you conducted the count? Noel. Yeah. Because you counted 10. Question okay, so the time that's there, it's reflected. Noel. But she gets cut off. The actual count slip. Noel. Yeah. It says 10. Question all right. So if around that time he would have just signed it and you went up. Noel. I went up. Question. And you actually did the count not around and you did a count. Noel. I counted. Question okay, and you just have no explanation for why the count is off. Noel. You can miscount. So I'm not saying that the number couldn't have been off. But as far as the count, like I counted it could have been a miscount, but I counted. Question. All right, I've got a follow up. Do you recall an inmate being moved to a dry cell that night? Noel? Dry cell. No Question. Do you know what that is? Noel. Yeah. Foy. Okay. Question. Do you remember an inmate named Fernandez? Noel? No Question. You don't recall during your shift the inmate wasn't moved? Noel. No, I don't. She gets cut off if an inmate was moved to another cell. Let's just say dry cell. Where is dry cell located? Noel? I don't know. Question. Is it in you know where R D is? Noel. Yeah. Question Is it in R D? Noel? I don't know. Question. Okay, if an inmate was moved R D, would you still include the inmate as part of your account? Noel. If the inmate was moved, I would think they'd be on the outcount. I'm not sure. Question. But you wouldn't include because you couldn't see the inmate? Noel. Right. They'd be on the outcount. Question. Yeah, you only count the people that are physically present. Noel. Counsel it. Question. Do you recall any instances of why anyone would write plus one? What was that? Plus one? We've been trying to figure out what the plus one is. Noel. Plus one? I don't know. Question. Yeah, I'm more concerned with the 73 when there was only 72 people. Now I'm not going to doubt that you counted at least one tier. You counted all six tiers? Noel. Yes. Question. And you added those up and it equaled 73. Noel. That's what I have on here. Question. Do you. Do you remember? I mean I know that you have on there, but that's what I'm saying. That's inaccurate. So I'm trying to. I'm trying to reconcile that. Ms. Noel. But see, I don't remember that at this point. Like I mean I wrote 73. I counted. I remember Thomas having a conversation. The number was switched to 72 but I don't remember like physically like adding it up like I don't remember that. And again, maybe I miscounted because I counted by myself. This was before but at 12 question and being that redacted signed before you did the count. Do you think you pre populated that and then counted? Noel I could have been I don't remember Question so you may have written the slip first and then counted? Noel I don't remember at this point. Question okay, but at the 12am count when you guys were told this count is off, you didn't then go as you should have recount. Noel no Question and you do understand that if it counts off, you're supposed to do a recount correct? Noel Recount question All right, so the 12am there's not dispute the 12am the 3am and the 5am you guys didn't do it. Noel Correct Question and you both signed those slips knowing that the counts weren't done. 10:00pm you're claiming that you did. You don't know when you filled out the slip and you don't know why it's inaccurate. Noel Right. Question and the 4pm you're just saying you don't remember. Noel the four yes question so you don't remember if it was conducted or if it wasn't conducted? Noel well the four would have been conducted because we feed at that time. Question well that's not a count though again I'm talking I don't want to say. I want to make sure that where he gets cut off Right, but I don't remember physically at 4pm counting I don't remember redacted okay, so you don't recall counting. You know that you did people at 4. Noel Wright question so that would have been what you call a round. Noel Wright Question what you classify your understanding of at as around but the count. Noelle Right. I don't recall Question. You don't Recall conducting the 4:00pm Noel no, I counted. She gets cut off. Do you believe that you did conduct a count at 4pm Noel I don't know Question so you just can't recall? Noel I don't remember Question okay Noelle I counted at 3 and 5 upstairs question that's incorrect at 10 question in 10 South Noel yeah question all right, so is it safe to say that you did the feed which you classified as a round but you didn't count at four? Noel I don't know. Question. You don't know. Okay, we're going to just move on. Mr. Foy. Let me do this real quick. I just want to try to clarify this. Let me. Because this is something we haven't discussed in advance. Redacted, of course. Foy. Because I didn't know there was an off on the number. Noel. I didn't even remember that. Foy. All right, so can we take this out with us and speak on it real quick? Question. Foy. Or you want to keep it in here? Question. How about we leave and let you discuss it in here? Foy. Okay, that's fine. Question. Does that work? Foy. Yeah, that's fine. Question. Just because I don't really want to have documents removed. Foy. Yeah, okay. Question. All right, so it's 1:38pm this is senior special Agent redacted, and I'm pausing the recording. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here as well. And in the next episode, dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.