Mega Edition: Unnamed MCC Lieutenant And HIs OIG Interview (11-14) (7/4/26)

Summary

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Mega Edition: Unnamed MCC Lieutenant and His OIG Interview (11-14) — July 4, 2026

Podcast: The Epstein Chronicles
Host: Bobby Capucci

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Episode Overview

This episode presents a detailed examination of the Office of Inspector General (OIG) interview with an unnamed Metropolitan Correctional Center (MCC) lieutenant. The focus is on the operational failures, personnel responsibilities, and systemic issues surrounding Jeffrey Epstein’s incarceration and subsequent death in August 2019. Host Bobby Capucci explores the nuances of staff communication, cellmate assignments, monitoring practices, and institutional breakdowns, probing the ambiguity around accountability in Epstein’s final days.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Communication & Notification Failures

• Post-Orders and Cellmate Policy:
  • Orders required rounds and cellmate assignments for high-risk inmates like Epstein, but their interpretation and enforcement varied across staff.
    • “It just says you need to conduct around and then different people interpret that a different way.” — Unnamed Lieutenant (01:50)
• Lack of Specificity in Roles:
  • There was confusion and overlapping responsibility regarding who was informed about Epstein’s need for a cellmate after his previous one left.
    • Psychology was expected to notify about cellmate requirements, but there was no clarity on timeframes or proper follow-up action.
    • “No one specified the time frame about how long he was going to be…” (03:13)
• Email Notifications and the Hot List:
  • Hot lists and emails about suicide watch were sent to correctional staff, but their purpose and who should act on them remained ambiguous.
    • “They send it out every time someone comes off suicide watch… I think they're required to.” (16:44)

2. The Chain of Command & Decision-Making

• Ambiguity in Accountability:
  • Multiple roles (shoe lieutenant, ops lieutenant, captain, psychology) could claim responsibility, creating gaps.
    • “I mean, we don’t supervise lieutenants. No lieutenant supervises lieutenants. That's why we have a supervisor.” (18:52)
• Log Entries and Knowledge of Cellmate Status:
  • Record-keeping showed Epstein’s cellmate was removed, but it was unclear whose job it was to initiate replacement actions.
    • “At 8:38 we knew he was probably not coming back.” (25:10)
    • “Who should have at that point…started making some rounds...the ops or activities Lieutenant should have said, ‘hey, he's gone, we've got to notify the captain’… that's again if they definitely knew he wasn’t coming back.” (26:14)
• Passing Information:
  • Staff felt limited in passing information up the chain until certainty was achieved, to avoid false alarms.
    • “He should have kept it in house until it was definite. It’s premature.” (29:15)

3. Cell Searches, Contraband, and Surveillance

• Search Frequency and Standards:
  • Policy required each cell be searched five times per shift, but only one search was logged for Epstein’s unit on August 9.
    • “Are they supposed to conduct more than one cell search?” — “Yeah… per shift.” (47:30)
• Cameras and Surveillance Issues:
  • Some staff had heard about malfunctioning cameras only after-the-fact, raising questions about facility oversight.
    • “I heard something about it when they was like checking videos… that some of them was showing grainy.” (40:12)
• Phone Calls and Monitoring:
  • Calls made from the “shower area” could be on either monitored or unmonitored lines; allowing Epstein an unmonitored call would have been highly irregular.
    • “If they gave them an unmonitored line? Yeah, unless they didn’t know which one it is.” (44:45)

4. Special Privileges and Conditions

• Linen, Bedding, and Medication:
  • Small inconsistencies in rules and oversight (e.g., blankets in August, quantities of extra clothing or linens).
    • “I mean, it wouldn't be authorized, but they could get it.” (52:10)
• Medication:
  • Prisoners could have self-carry prescriptions; this was not seen as abnormal.
    • “Some have self-carrying medicines.” (51:00)

5. Epstein’s Movements, Interactions & Final Days

• Attorney Visits:
  • Epstein spent most of the day with his lawyers, usually in the attorney conference room from early morning to evening.
    • “He used to be there from eight in the morning all day to a watch and evening watch.” (60:50)
• Interactions with Staff:
  • The lieutenant had no clear memory of interacting with Epstein on August 9, despite the case’s profile.
    • “I can’t remember if I spoke to that dude that day.” (57:30)
• Cellmate Departure:
  • The process of vetting and changing Epstein’s cellmates was unusually intensive, involving captain, warden, and regional director.
    • “They were both vetted from the highest of levels...even with that knowledge...they should have still waited.” (31:50)

6. Systemic MCC Failures & Post-Epstein Changes

• Understaffing:
  • Chronic issues with staffing, long hours, and poor pay cited as structural problems.
    • “They was… extremely understaffed.” (74:25)
• Procedural Changes:
  • Following Epstein’s death, new policies were introduced: tighter logging, enhanced memos for single/special cell assignments, and increased rounds.
    • “They started putting inmates that go to court... started single cell memos... more rounds, more reiteration of doing your rounds.” (75:35)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Accountability Gaps:
  • “That's a tough one... I’m not sure with that one either.” (When asked who should have taken action once Epstein’s cellmate left) (19:10)
• On Surveillance Failures:
  • “I heard something about it… some of them was showing grainy.” (40:20)
• On Monitoring High-Profile Inmates:
  • “No one can watch someone all the time.” (62:38)
• On Rounds vs. Cellmate for Suicide Prevention:
  • “If they're not doing the rounds, the 30 minute rounds, that's really the blame here… way more than you would blame it on the cellmate.” (71:00)
• On Staffing Issues:
  • “They need that. Definitely more employees.” (75:00)
• On Systemic Institutional Problems:
  • “If another inmate died, we're probably not going to be here talking to you. But this is high profile...How do we fix it?” (67:36)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | | ------------- | ------- | | 01:30–07:00 | Overview of MCC notification, cellmate assignment confusion, “hot list” and staff communication problems | | 12:19–19:10 | Responsibilities breakdown among lieutenants; ambiguity around who should have acted | | 25:00–33:00 | Lieutenant’s logbook entries, procedures when cellmate removed, gaps in escalation | | 40:00–46:20 | Camera issues, phone call protocols, monitoring lapses | | 47:00–52:45 | Cell searches, allowance of linens, & contraband controls| | 57:00–62:50 | Epstein’s day-to-day routine, staff interactions, and last seen alive | | 68:15–73:00 | System failings, focus on rounds, cellmate policy, MCC staffing crisis | | 75:30–78:00 | Post-incident policy changes & recruitment challenges | | 78:00–End | Reflections on prisoners’ privileges, staff background checks, and further ideas for institutional improvements |

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Conclusion: Lieutenant’s Perspective and Institutional Breakdown

Throughout the interview, the unnamed MCC lieutenant repeatedly emphasizes the ambiguity and shared nature of responsibility within the correctional structure. He acknowledges gaps in communication, inconsistent follow-up, and systemic understaffing. Ultimately, he views the primary failure not as the absence of a cellmate, but as a breakdown in the required monitoring—specifically, the failure to conduct regular rounds.

“If they're not doing the rounds, the 30 minute rounds, that's really the blame here… way more than you would blame it on the cellmate.” (71:00)

There persists a culture of uncertainty, passing duties, and resignation toward structural flaws in the MCC. The episode closes with a call for more rigorous policies and better staffing as the only way to prevent similar tragedies.

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For more details and segment-by-segment resources, check the episode’s description box.

Transcript

[Unnamed Lieutenant]

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[Unnamed Lieutenant]

everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're diving right back in to the unnamed lieutenant from MCC and his interview with the OIG inspectors. Questions Speaking of lieutenants, we don't need to make you look in this. We'll look it up. Answer this is post orders. Question we'll dig into that, but you think it's probably in the shoe. Answer yeah, it's around, but to say specific go 10 check on and all that. I don't know if it says all that. Question all right, it just says you need to conduct around and then different people interpret that a different way. Answer yeah, yep. Question all right, you said he gets cut off by the lieutenant, but then again, if she don't get the information, I can see it being missed. Question right. Answer because if no one tells me that the guy left, he gets cut off by the investigator. But if she says that, I know redacted left. I know Epstein's by himself, but I didn't know he needed a cellmate. Does that make sense to you? At all. Answer. I mean, unless she didn't read the email or she's not, I don't know how it is. Maybe she wasn't aware. Question. But I mean the fact that again, those three things that we talked about, I understand you say like odd number or you know, that kind of stuff, but the fact that there's an email that went out, there's the hot list that has his name on it and the fact that he's in the shoe and he's not one of those. So one of those three. She should have at least known, right, that Epstein was required to have a cellmate. Answer. Yeah. Question. So we're saying I didn't know. Is that to you? Like, of course you knew, you've been around for a long time. Whereas he gets cut off by the lieutenant. I mean, I'm thinking she needs no one told her. Question, no one verbalized it to her. Answer. Yeah. Question. But do you think that that's an appropriate excuse for a lieutenant saying I didn't know if those three things are in place? Answer. I'm not sure. Question. You're not sure and I know you don't want to be like, you know, but like, I'm just trying to reconcile it too. Like, alright, if you're saying you didn't know, how is it that it's possible if everybody else, everybody else I talk to seems to know? Answer. Then again, I told you the hot list and all that, that's things that like, like the email, even though it's out, there is no time frame on that. Question. Yeah, but the fact that there is still on the hot list, I would think that that would continue because the email went out, but then you're also placed on the hot list. And if you're on the hot list, it basically corresponds with the email. Correct? Answer. Yeah, but the hot list is for initial. So you get locked up. That's when I'm checking, I know, I'm checking to see if this inmate is on the hot list initially. Question. So only when the hot list changes, you're not looking at the people that are still on the hot list. Answer. Well, I'm saying like if there's 10 on there and the guy gets locked up from 11 north he comes and he just got a psych alert and we make sure he gets a bunky. He got a bunky. He does a month with a bunky. Day 31, we're not still, you know. Question. So in this case, you would think even July 30 to August 9 when the guy leaves, that could be enough time to say he doesn't need a bunky anymore. Answer. I mean, I'm not psychology. Question. All right. And you don't know if psychology is making any more no one told you Answer no one specified the time frame about how long he was going to be. He gets cut off by the investigator. Did anyone after July 30, after receiving that email, did anyone talk to you about Epstein needing a cellmate? Answer not that I recall. Question no. Who would have if he in fact did continue to need a cellmate, who would have told you? Answer. I say psychology. Question. Psychology. Not the captain or another lieutenant. It was psychology. Answer Psychology. They deal with that. Question. And who in psychology Answer any of them? Question anybody? Answer anyone? Hey, it's an email. Question. So just you think that they should have continued like once a week or something sending out an email or how often? Because that wasn't even two weeks after the email went out. So like how soon should they answer I don't think that a weekly or, you know, he gets cut off by the investigator. That maybe was 10 days ago the lieutenant because I don't know. I don't know. I know they indiscernible to us, so I don't know their policy because I know they supposed to follow up and then there are steps to it. I don't know. Not familiar with that policy. Question. Okay, but you think it was psychology that they were the ones that should have made sure, like there's people in the shoe, he gets cut off. They sent out the email to us. Question. Right? Answer they notified us. Question. But you're saying like that could be like a day or two. It doesn't mean that two weeks from there it matters. Answer yeah, I mean that happens two weeks after that. Yeah. The guy goes to court, he leaves. There's a time and opportunity. I don't think it's nobody's fault. Question. You think it's just he gets cut off by the lieutenant? I just don't think it's nobody's fault. Question okay, and do you recall this sign or any sign hanging up saying that he needed a cellmate or he needed to be 30 minute rounds on him? Answer I definitely don't recall that signs about you saying him needed rounds Question that's the rounds. Answer no, the one that he gets cut off by the investigator. Another one saying that he was required to have a cellmate. Answer the sign. Question so we've been told that there was a sign saying that Epstein was required to have a cellmate in the shoe on the desk area? Answer. Could have been, I don't know. I don't be in the desk area. Question. So you don't. You're not aware, but you know that. That there was a hot list at least? Answer. No, the hot list is there. It's been there since I was working there. The hot list is back there, and that's about it. Question. And do you know if Epstein was on the hot list? Answer no, I'm not sure. Question. You're not sure? Answer. Do you have the hot list? Question not with us. No, I don't think. Do we have it? No. You said you didn't even know as the opposite. Lieutenant, you don't recall specific conversations with anybody that worked in the shoe on August 9th or 10th? No. Answer. Specific conversation? No, it was a regular day. Question. I mean, up leading from basically July 30th to August 9th? Answer. O. About he gets cut off about the need for checking on Epstein or a cellmate or anything to do with Epstein? Answer no. All I know is when he tried it the first time, he went to suicide watch come off and they put him with the other guy. No, no, they put him with someone else. I don't know. Question. So initially he was with. Is it redacted? Answer. Redacted. He was named. Question. And then he went to suicide watch, came back on July 30th. Like that. So from July 30th to August 9th, as ops lieutenant or otherwise, did you have any conversation with anybody working on the shoe in the shoe on August 9th or August 10th about Epstein? Answer. Yeah. Question and what were those conversations about what did they entail? Answer. You know, just, hey, leave them with. You gotta make sure they get down here early. You got legal visits. I know he was asking for a phone call. This is like basic, you know, regular stuff. Question. What about with regard to making sure they're doing rounds or that he has a cellmate, did you have any conversations from the time you got that email on after you got the email, did you call down to the shoe and say, hey, or visit the shoe and say, hey, make sure that he's got. He gets cut off by the lieutenant? I can't recall. And I wouldn't do it if I'm not the co? Question. Right. Did you take any action after receiving that email? Did you talk to anybody about it? Answer. I can't recall. Question. That email was, why was that email sent out to all the lieutenants? Answer. I told you, they send it out Every time someone comes off suicide watch. Question Right. So what is the purpose of that? Answer for the doing thy job Question So by you getting it and doing your job as like an ops lieutenant or an activities lieutenant, what is that? Is that something that you're supposed to make other people aware of or why do they provide you with that information? Answer I think they're required to. Question they're required to. Answer I think they're required. Or it could be a reminder, hey, by the way, this guy is getting released off suicide watch and place them with an inmate in shu. Question but is it so you can then follow up to make sure that the COs know or there must be a reason rather than just for your own information? There's gotta be usually your provided information for a specific reason. So why are lieutenants provided that information rather than just the shoe lieutenants? Why are everybody else provided it? Answer I'm not sure. But hey, send an email out to everybody though. Question right? Answer Lieutenants. Indiscernible Question so that's what I'm saying. Well, it's not an all staff email. It's like he gets cut off by the lieutenant. No, it's a correctional services and and correctional system. Right.

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question oh, you can tell me here, I'll show you. I thought it was primarily lieutenants. I mean I think a couple SHU staff might be on there but. But it's the three pages behind it. Answer okay, so suicide watch, psych observation update. So you got legal in here. Food service case managers, lieutenants unit team. Question so by reviewing that, are you able to tell me like is there a target audience? Answer no. This is to make everybody aware. Question because it's not an all staff email though, is it? Answer no. Question so who are they sending it to? Like how do they come up with that group of people to send it to. Answer. It's the same way we do logs. We send it to the same group every night. Question. What group is that? Answer. The executive staff, the lieutenants, psychology, then a psycho assistant. Question. So it's all correctional staff, though? Answer. Correctional staff. Yeah. It's not all correctional officers, though. Question. So is everybody but the officers? Answer. You got some officers on here too. Question. But you're not sure how they make that decision? Answer. No. You got medical lieutenants, food service, R D, legal duty officer. Yeah, I mean I think they would probably do this. It's for your information, like FYI. Question. But do you know I understand where the FYI, you're not clear on why they he gets cut off again by the lieutenant. Indiscernible back to the investigator. Send it to those specific people. Okay. But as far as you receiving it? Answer. Yeah, I can't recall if I spoke to him about it up in internal or not. Question. And that wouldn't be like, that's not the way it works. Whereas provide the information to lieutenants and the lieutenants make sure that you provide the information to the the cos. Answer. It depends on your area. Like if I'm shoe lieutenant right now, right. So they hey, this guy's coming in. Make sure, okay, make sure, you know, I'm saying directly to the staff I'm supervising. Question. Is it the ops lieutenant job to make sure the shoe lieutenant does it? Answer. Huh? Question. Is there any oversight there? Does the ops lieutenant kind of have oversight over the shoe lieutenants? Answer. I mean sometimes the shoe lieutenant has rank on an ops lieutenant. Question. Oh, it depends on if you're 9 or 11. Yeah. Question all right, so it's not based upon position that you're holding like the opposite. Lieutenant doesn't like the position, doesn't he gets cut off by the lieutenant. I mean, we don't supervise lieutenants. No, lieutenant supervises lieutenants. That's why we have a supervisor. Question no, no. And again, these are questions just for you to try and help us understand how the operation works. And it again, not placing blame on you whatsoever. It's just trying to figure out how it's supposed to work. If they're saying it's you, are you supposed to do something with that information? Answer. I mean, but the thing is they followed up until that time came Question. What do you mean? Answer. He had a bunky up until that time. Question. Right. So they put it out, he had a bunky and then he didn't. And that's what we're trying to figure out. Who was who or where was the communication breakdown, who should have had that time taken action to make sure that he had a bunky. And that's the whole thing that we're looking into. Who should have made sure Epstein, once redacted, was removed and people were notified that he was removed? Who should have taken action? Yeah. Question. And who, in your opinion, should have? I don't know, man, that's a tough one. But, like, even position wise not to name names, what position should have taken action? I'm not sure. I'm not sure with that one either. Okay, now I'm just handing you back this lieutenant's log. Answer. Okay? All right, we're gonna wrap up right here, and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to get right back to the unknown lieutenant and his interview with the OIG Inspectors. Question. Now, I'm just handing you back this lieutenant's log, you know, a few pages back, but did you. Were you involved with that lieutenant's log? Did you make any entries on that Lieutenant's log on August 9th? Answer I'm not sure. Question yeah. Are you able to tell by looking at it? Like, is that something that you can tell who made entries, or is it anyone can make an entry? Answer I mean, we can all make an entry. Question does it show, like, initials or anything like that after the entry was made? Does it show who made that entry? Answer no. Question no. Does it show anything with regard to redacted on that lieutenant's log? Answer yeah. Question what does it say? Answer Redacted to pre remove. Question and what does that mean? Answer Pretrial remove, does that mean that he's leaving and he's not coming back? Yeah. What time does it say that? It depends. 8:38 is the answer. Question so 8:38, does that mean at 8:38 pre trial to remove, does that mean that they knew at 8:38 that he wasn't coming back? Not necessarily. What does it mean? It means that when they put the information in question, but I'm saying, like, what the information says, is that what normally that people are going to court, what it says for them, if they're coming back? Answer no, normally they say it's taken off the count, pre trial is removed. So he was taken off the count from seven to six he was taken off that count. Question Are people that go to court always taken off the count? Answer no Question so by looking at that that tells you that he was already wab? Answer I mean if they go to Brooklyn sometimes they take them off or a different court. But this one here I would say yeah, taken off of the count and again I'm not sure I see pre removed proof. Pre remove Question but by saying pre remove does that mean it's more likely that he's not coming back? Answer yeah Question and who would have made that entry? I'm not sure. Do you know if you made that entry? I'm not sure and there is no way to tell. No Question So I guess the question is at approximately 8:30 did we already know? Is the BOP did we already know hey this guy's probably not coming back. I'm not sure. What does it show if he was coming back? That's why I say hey Question no no no. What would show Answer if he was coming back? Question you said if it's a pre remove Answer yeah Question if he was coming back what would it show? Would it say pre remove or would it say something else? Answer See the thing is I mean he gets cut off by the investigator. Like not that he was coming back. Like if he's just going to court and you don't know if he's coming back or not if, if he's going to court Answer yeah Question and he's not Wab what is what does it say there? Answer no Question so it would only say that if they thought he wasn't coming back? Answer yeah probably. Question all right, so then it looks like from looking at that at 8:38 we knew he was probably not coming back. Answer yeah Question all right. And with that knowledge should have any action or should have any notification at least been made of hey Epstein, cellmate is likely not coming back. We need to start thinking about a new cellmate for the people that knew. Answer I'm not sure. You know the thing is when it was see our log is not I could go in and see what time someone left and input it. That's what we do at the end of the shift. Question so at 4pm this could have been updated if you is that what you're saying? Not 8:30 answer probably like three around there. Yeah it's not the only one Question I'm not saying specifically, I'm just saying like later in the day Answer it's not an ongoing thing. Question it could have Been. But you wouldn't put 8:38. This is when that happened. If at 8:38 you didn't know that, would you? Answer. Well, if I don't check it, I wouldn't know that. Question. Right? I'm not saying you specifically. Answer. No, I mean anybody. If I go to the computer and it has a time and it says that these are the people that left, that's what I'm going off of. If I don't check it at 8:38 or I won't know. Question. So when you say though, I'm talking about BoP. So what I'm saying is, like, the person who entered that, they're entering it as if at 8:38 it was known that he was likely not coming back. Is that correct? Answer. It was known to be op. Question. Right? Answer. Yeah. Question. Yeah, I'm not saying you. I'm saying bop. Answer. There's no officers. Yeah. Question. Yeah, and who likely would have entered that? Like, who was. Who has access to enter that control and lieutenants, who else? Answer. I think that's about it. Question. All right, so at that time, you. It would have been either you redacted or control. Correct? Answer. I'm not so sure. Question. But I'm just saying, like, it's you. You're the only two lieutenants on. And then control. Right? Answer again, I'm not sure. Question. And this is all just. I didn't even realize this until we're. We're now reviewing it. So this isn't. I promise you, this isn't like a setup. This is just trying to, like, you know, figure it out. Answer. I'm not sure, because what if. What if I say, hey, I didn't do the log? Or what if, hey, you forgot the log. You have to do this. Question. What do you mean? Answer. If you get an emergency, hey, listen, relieve me. I ain't touched the log. All right, whatever. I got you. Question. Right. Right. So you don't. So what you're saying is you don't know if it was. He gets cut off. I don't know the investigator. All right? Because, I mean, look, like I know, like, I'm pretty sure Redacted. Knew he was going, but he didn't know he wasn't coming back. Is that correct? Answer. Yes. Question. So that's what I think, that you're. He gets cut off. Yeah. But the thing about it with this is if I relieve you and you didn't do nothing, hey, you know, look out for me. I got you next time. Okay? So Just because it's on day watch don't mean they watch staff did it. Question. So that that could have been filled out by someone other than that was even present at 8:38? Answer. Yeah. Question. How would they know? Answer. They got a computer. Question. What would they see at the computer? Answer. It's on sentry. Question. So on sentry, it would say if he was wab or not. Answer. All movement for the day. Question. And would that be maintained for a long period of time or is that constantly refreshed? It's refreshed until midnight. Question. And then you. At this point in time, would we be able to go back and see what you did? I could come in at 10 or 11 at night and do a whole 24 hours of movement. All right, so you don't know. I don't know who did this. Was it day watch or what? Question. And there is no way to tell by looking at it. Answer. No. Question. Is there in sentry any way to tell who entered it? Answer. We don't do the sentry. We just take the information off of sentry. Question. Oh, well, who would have put it in sentry? Answer R D. Question. Okay, so R D could have put it in sentry and then whomever, either one of the lieutenants or control could have typed it in. Answer. Yeah. Question. Okay. Answer. Or yeah, somebody. Question. All right, so with this information at 8:38, would it have been if at 8:38 we knew that? And when I say we bop or whomever r D control knew that he was gone and not likely coming back, who should have started making those notifications that Epstein was without a cellmate? Is that shoe staff? Is it lieutenants? Answer. You said they known at this time. Question. Yeah, so at 8:38, he's going WAB. He leaves with a brown paper bag and he's got stuff with him. He knows he's not coming back. Redacted is saying, I'm out. I'm not coming back. Who should have at that point, should have been the shoe staff that started making notifications. Hey, we know Epstein's cellmate's gone. We need to start making some rounds. Is that, you know, the ops or the activities? Lieutenant should have said, hey, he's gone. We've got to notify the captain. Answer. I mean, the thing of it is, I don't even know who the dude is. Question. Right. Answer. So for one, a regular staff wouldn't even know who bunky is. Question. And that's where my question. Should the shoe have started saying like this is hey ops and activities Lt. This redacted guy is Epstein's cellmate. We need to start thinking about putting a cellmate and getting a new cellmate assigned. Answer that's again if they definitely knew he wasn't coming back. Just because this like you can get a pre remove and then at 450 you get pre removed to such and such Question okay, so this is why redacted's memo that said possibly not coming back will likely need a new cellmate. Is that why that's the appropriate response? Answer Possibly probably because you can never tell. Question and is that why you're saying that they would have written possibly because at this point it looks like it's likely, but it's not definite. Answer yeah, I could see him could see that happening because like you said, this happens all the time. Question all right, because again it says that inmate redacted was going wab and possibly may not return. Also that inmate Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival from his attorney visit. So looks like they knew the shoe should have told you activities lieutenant or redacted ops lieutenant Answer I mean he gets cut off by the investigator. I'm not saying that he did or that, you know, you already said you didn't. Answer I'm not even saying that he should have Question o Answer I don't know. Question okay. Answer. If he was notified and he said it could be again I told you eight that's indiscernible. You guys come in all the time from court.

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[Unnamed Lieutenant]

Question yeah, but I'm just saying with the fact that Epstein everybody knows he needs a cellmate. Should have they notified up the chain of command at this point. What if he came back at 8? Question but what I'm saying is like the fact that they know it's possible and likely should they have started making notifications? Being that you were the ops lieutenant for a long time you were a lieutenant now it seems for a number of years. In your expert opinion as a lieutenant, should these guys have started making some notifications that's hard to say because if you pass on this information possibly the guy shows up at 8 what notification I need to make? Question okay, so you were the activities lieutenant and redacted was the activities lieutenant when that thing says 8:38 do you believe as the person who was you know the ops and activities Lt. Those two people do you believe at that time that these notifications should have been made to you would have you do you believe you should have been made aware? Answer at 8:30 question or anytime between 8:30 and I guess 1:50 during your shift if your shift ended at 2 or 4 we don't know Answer I'm not sure because this you see pre removal all the time they come back Question okay Answer that's why I could see him saying hey this guy might not be coming back but it's a possibility he can. Question so then he gets cut off by the lieutenant so make notifications now the investigator picks back up if he did it hit this way if redacted told the oncoming staff this is what's up. Do you think he took appropriate action? Answer who Question Redacted if he in fact passed on that information saying hey guys, you know he he's saying he said it's the day of redacted and redacted right as he's gone that's Epstein's cellmate he's going to like if he doesn't come back. Definitely he's going to need a cellmate. Answer he said that to who Usain? Question well this is what the memo says. It says that Again on Friday Aug 9, 2019 at approximately 1:50pm I redacted passed on to the oncoming staff member Officer redacted and present shift staff redacted and officer redacted that inmate redacted was going wab and possibly may not return. Also that inmate Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival from his attorney visit. Answer okay, so redacted and redacted was on day watch. Question I don't know, it sounds like what he says is that he told redacted and these guys were also present. So in my expert opinion at that time he did the right thing. Question alright, so by this he shouldn't have passed it up to the ops and activities Lt. He should have kept it in house until it was definite. It's premature. Yeah okay because that would have been premature prior to this time. Yeah because like I said at the time if he came back then oh I thought you said we need to know to change him out or we start yeah. Question and even keeping in mind that both redacted or however you pronounce his name. Answer well after that I don't think he was bunked with him after that. Question him and no, no, what I'm saying is both of his previous inmates, Epstein I'm saying redacted and redacted. They were both vetted from the highest of levels. Even with that knowledge and you think that they should have still waited. They were vetted by the captain, the warden and the regional director. Answer yeah. Question so obviously it took some doing with that knowledge. Do you think that they should have told you or no? You still think it's premature? Answer At 150. Question well, I mean not at 150. Answer I mean I don't know. Question it looks like 838. Answer then again I told you about that. If I don't check for it, I don't know. Question I'm not saying, I'm not saying you checking for him you already but what I'm saying like it appears that it looking at this it appears that they knew he was WAB since 8:38. Right? Answer yeah. Question so I'm saying between 8:38 and whatever the end of the shift is, do you believe someone should have said something to you? Answer I'm not sure. Because then again when you look at another log where it'll say pre removed to za, you understand Question right? Because he didn't actually he gets cut off by the lieutenant so that's why I could see him saying hey, I'll let y' all know I'm passing on to you and you because you're going to be here possibly I'm giving you the heads up Question so I guess and I understood you answered the question but what I said was considering the fact that it takes at least almost an entire day to vet who is even going to be placed with him, do you think that they should have started moving his up the chain of command knowing that this guy, no inmate, just a regular inmate shouldn't be placed with this guy. He needs to be vetted. It's vetted all the way up to the regional director's level. Yeah, I'm not sure on that one. Yeah sure. Alright. Not sure. So is there anything else it says with redacted. Does it say when you actually he gets cut off by the lieutenant? It just says 838 pre removed. That means taken off the count. Now if he comes back it'll say pre removed to za and it kind of Changes. Question so because it says pre removed, there's no reason to note when they were definitively told he wasn't coming back? Answer yeah, this just means he went to court, right? So you have three going out meaning you're off on count. It could have been in the eastern district, whatever. If you would come back they would put you back on Question but only if you come back otherwise they won't name you again. Answer so this is definite? I mean no, this is not definite. That means he's possibly he could come back just because it says pre removed, he'll come back. Question but what I'm saying is the fact that he didn't come back should have there been another note saying he is now definitively off our books? Answer no, you just don't see it on the they just don't see it. Question so just by him not being back on it, it just means hey, refer back to that thing where it said that he was possibly not coming back. Answer Yep. Question There should not be any more notes saying like he's gone? Answer no, only think because if I'm evening watch, the only thing I'm checking is is the pre removed to the institution? So these three, they did they come back today or are they off to the count so there wouldn't be no follow up? Question so there's no additional. There should have been. There's not another line item that shouldn't be in there saying that redacted wasn't one of the individuals that came back? Answer no, because no. Question so there's a pre removed but there's no line for removed. Answer no pre remove means off the count. He's out the building. Question okay, so that's the only notification that should have been made. Should have been made on the lieutenant's log. Answer yeah. All right folks, we're gonna wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode we're going to dive right back in to the unnamed lieutenant and his interview with the OIG inspectors about the death of Jeffrey Epstein. Question all right, and do you mind just putting it like you did the last time, just a little star next to it? Answer I've just got one question real quick. Question yes, please do. Answer this is the 4pm count, right? Answer Yup. This outcount that you see right here Answer for ZD Question for Za. Sorry. Answer for Za. Question. Za. See that one is that one. Who is that one for? Is that for redacted? Answer. Out count. Question. Who normally gets marked off on the E1 that's out count. It means he's still in the facility or the inmates had to leave the facility. Answer. You never usually see an outcount for that one though. I don't know what assignment this is. Question. Say that again. Answer. I'm not sure what this assignment is. Question. You don't know what account. Okay. Answer. It could have been some type of he gets cut off by the investigator. I was just trying to figure out if they were still counting him as hey, there's a possibility of him coming back. They've left him as an outcount and eventually after evening they removed them from the outcount. Answer. No. So the outcount. Oh, I know what you're saying now. You're trying to say, you mean who is the one that they have at the attorney conference? Answer C. We know that. Question. Yeah, that's the same thing. Answer. That's the same thing. Question. Yeah, all the numbers is repeats for the outcounts. Question. So you hear what he's saying? Answer. Yeah, okay. Question. 10, 1 2. That equals 13113 plus 1 plus 132 equals 19. Answer. Got it. So at this point, redacted is completely off of the count. Answer. Yeah, four. Yeah, he was off at this time. Question. Okay. Answer. But the thing is he could come back. Question. Got it. Answer. That's why I'm saying. I know you're saying that. Hey, he should have. I can't say that. Question. So you're not like upset at the fact like that he didn't notify you and then you could have notified the captain. You don't think that would have been what he should have done? Hey everybody.

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[Unnamed Lieutenant]

Answer. I mean yeah, that's definitely helpful and it would have been appreciated. But to say that, you know, he's in the wrong for not doing it and stuff like That I can't say that. Question okay. And he didn't notify you? Answer no, not that I recall. Question okay, all right, so we're going to move on from that. You can give that back or you can hold on to it, whatever you want to do. Do you know about any cameras in the MCC shoe that were not working on August 9th or 10th? Answer no, that they weren't working? Question yeah. Answer no. Question have you. Did you ever. Were you made aware of that after August 9, any cameras were not working? Answer I heard something about it when they was like checking videos and stuff. Question what did you hear about it? Answer that some of them was showing granny. Question and who would have been responsible for making sure the cameras were working? Answer Facilities. Question who from facilities should we speak with? Answer I'm not sure. Question who worked in facilities? Answer Whoever they manager is. Facilities manager. Question do you know who that person was back in August? Answer it was probably vacant. Question Vacant. Was there a redacted? Answer yeah, redacted. He was there. Question did he send. Was he a supervisor? Answer he's not a supervisor. He's a com tech, though. He's a com tech. Question Would he be somebody that would be good to speak with on that? Answer yeah, probably. Question all right. Were you aware though, that prior to that time that they weren't working? Answer the cameras? No. Question no. Okay, who is BOP employee? Redacted? Answer I know him. Do you know what his position was in August of 2019? He would have been a manager. What does that role entail? What are his duties and responsibilities? He is a supervisor of a unit team. What unit team at the time, do you know? I'm not sure. Did you have any communication with regard to Epstein with redacted? Like what? Question Just with them being housed within the shoe. I probably talked to him about something, but I don't recall. Nothing specific. Okay. No communication like that? I don't know. Did you ever provide him with any kind of special instruction with regard to Epstein? Not that I recall, no. What about did you ever communicate with redacted regarding rounds being conducted in the shuffle or Epstein needing a cellmate? Answer not that I recall. Question Are you aware that redacted allowed Epstein to make a telephone call on the evening of August 9, 2019? Answer I think I heard something about that. I don't know. Was it redacted though? I just heard something. I think he made a phone call. Question all right, so do you know anything about redacted involved with the phone call? No. Question all right. What's your understanding of the phone call that took place on August 9th with Epstein's telephone call? It was a regular phone call. Did you hear that it was made in the shower area? No. Have you ever heard of telephone calls being made in the shower area? Answer. In the shower area? Yeah. And what's the purpose of that? The cord can't reach and I'll say we got him out taking a shower. Hey, I'm going to give you a phone right now. While I'm. While you're right there, I don't have to pull you out. And it's like a time consuming method. Do you know if the line that would have been using in that area would be a recorded line or a legal line? Answer. It's two. There's two. Question. Okay, so would there be any reason to provide someone with a legal line that's not recorded? Answer. No. Would there be a reason? Answer a question. Yeah. Answer no. Question. So why, if they provided Epstein a phone call in the shower area for a legal line, would that be wrong? Answer. You mean an unmonitored line? Question. Yeah. Answer. If they gave them an unmonitored line? Answer. Question. Right. Answer. Yeah. Unless they didn't know which one it is. Question. And if they did not know that they gave him a legal line that was an unmonitored line, should someone have monitored that call? Answer. You can't, though. You said it was unmonitored. Question. No, I mean, like, sit there and listen to the call. Answer. Oh, you mean like. I mean, they do that all the time. I think they could, you know, they let the call. They're legal attorneys and. Yeah, they do that. Question. Okay, and if they didn't do that? Answer. I don't know if it's a violation, but it's not common. Question. Yeah. So let's say if the captain even authorized it. Yeah. Give him his phone call. Just make sure you monitor and log it. Answer no Question. They didn't monitor it. They didn't log it. Would that be a problem? Answer. The captain telling me. Yeah. Question. All right. Did you ever hear of the practice taking place in the past? Answer. Unmonitored calls? Question. Yeah, or like letting somebody in the shoe have a phone call on that unmonitored line, walking away, letting the person talk? Answer no. Now, from an officer standpoint. Question. Yeah. Answer no. Question. You never seen that before or heard of that? Answer. Officers. No. Question. Okay. What's the policy for inmates making calls from the shoe? Answer. I don't know. They could get, they got to come. There's an indiscernible in Chu that everyone has a line, a compassionate phone line. And they get with the captain or the chaplain, excuse me, and they can make a phone call. Like say they might. You only get one phone call every 30 days. So Chaplain comes in, hey, give this guy a call. They come up, they bring him up, they let him use the compassionate phone. Question and when you say what's a compassionate phone? Answer yeah, it's like something they have, you know, a death in the family or something like that. Question but is that a monitored call? Answer I don't think so. But I mean staff would stay with them. It's monitored. Yeah, it's monitored. Question. So anybody in the staff, it's either a monitored line or staff is with them, is that correct? Answer if it's monitored in the shoe. Question. Yeah. Answer yeah. Question so when I say monitored, I mean it's either a recorded line or you're right there. And what are the reasons why you would give him an unrecorded line or a non recorded line? Answer I mean probably like an emergency or something. Definitely. Yeah. So like the chaplain ain't the hey, you know, okay. Question. But if it was in the shower area, they would actually have the ability to do either a recorded line or a non recorded line. Answer yeah. Question they're right next to each other. Answer it's a jack. Yeah. Question. Yeah. Okay, what's going on everyone?

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[Unnamed Lieutenant]

What about what's the MCC policy on conducting searches in the shoe? Cell searches. Answer you have to search the cell. Question. Do you know about them not conducting cell searches? Answer. Staff not conducting. Question yeah. Answer like what? Question like for instance, here's cell search from Nine south or the Shoe on August 9th. It's one cell search. It was conducted at 12:36pm during the day by redacted. It's the only cell search that was conducted on August 9. Is that weird for you that you would see only one search conducted on a day? Meh. Are they supposed to conduct more than One cell search? Answer yeah. Question how many are they supposed to conduct? Answer 5. Question and is it at least 5 on night watch and during the day watch? Answer Per shift? Question what's that? Answer Per shift. Question Per shift everyone's supposed to do five. Answer yeah. Question Is that including the morning watch? Answer no. Question so day watch, he gets cut off by the lieutenant. Do area searches or morning watch? Question so your understanding is that on day watch and on night watch it's supposed to be five per shift? Yeah. Question and are you aware if they weren't doing that? Hmm? Question or is it that you were saying before an abnormal day? Answer I mean, I don't know. I wasn't aware that they wasn't doing it. No. Question okay. And is there any responsibility for the ops or activities lieutenant overseeing to make sure that these cell searches are being conducted? Answer yeah. Question There is. Answer yeah. Question and what is that responsibility? Answer I mean pretty much we check every 30 days they've got to be done. Every cell is supposed to be searched every 30 days. Question every cell in there is supposed to be searched every 30 days. Answer the whole unit. Question okay. And that's where the ops lieutenant and activities lieutenant come in. Answer any lieutenant Question any lieutenant Answer it's everybody's responsibility. Question so I guess what I'm asking is on August 9th, there's no shoe lieutenant in there as the activities lieutenant or the ops lieutenant on any of the watches, should have they been like making sure that they were doing their job? I'm not sure. You're not sure? Yeah, because I mean that's in truscope. It's like you're not checking truscope at the time he gets cut off by the investigator. Yeah, yeah. The lieutenant picks it back up and on top of that, I think the cells, the cameras probably show the cells being checked. I'm quite sure they just didn't log them. Question alright, so you think that they're actually searching them? They got to. Question and not locking it. Answer you got to hey, get out, you're doing a feed and cough up showers, you come out and yeah, so they not locked. Question but would it be surprising to you to hear that there was a lot of extra linens and clothing and all that kind of stuff in the shoe. Answer that's not surprising. Question so if they're doing cell searches, wouldn't they take that stuff out and keep them with the he gets cut off by the lieutenant? I suppose so, yeah. Question all right, but you believe that they were actually conducting the cell searches. Answer I'm quite sure more than one was conducted. Question okay, so you think it was just this is all that they logged, but they probably did more? Answer yeah. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in in the description box. What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're diving right back in to the interview with the unnamed lieutenant from MCC and the OIG inspectors. Question okay, all right. Do you know anything about Epstein being authorized to have pills in his cell in the shoe? Answer pillows? Question no. Pills?

[Interviewee Lieutenant]

Nah.

[Unnamed Lieutenant]

Question Pills like medication? No. Question should have he been allowed medication in his cell? I mean, inmates have medication. They do, yeah. Question so in the shoe they're allowed to have medication? Yeah. Question Is there ever a problem with like ODing or anything like that? Answer I mean, if it's depending on the medication, medical gives it to them. Question okay. Answer Some have self carrying medicines. Question all right, and so that, and that's not abnormal for them to have their own pill bottles and things like that in the shoe? Answer no. Question what can an inmate have in their cell in the shoe? Answer T shirt, boxers, washcloths, a towel, depending on what the season, two blankets, two sheets. Question so they can have two blankets and two sheets. Answer Dependent on the weather. Question okay. Answer and how much is available? Question what about August? How many blankets and sheets could have they had? Answer how many could they have had? Question or are they allowed to have had? Answer it depends. Some of them, it depends. If they say, hey let me keep it. 2 and 2. Let them keep it. Question okay. Answer I say, hey, you need to, you know, they go down to one. Question Would it never be authorized to have more than two each? Answer how many, like an extra blanket or something? Answer yeah, like if three blankets or four blankets. Answer I know, I don't know about four, but an extra blanket, I heard that. Especially in the winter time. Depending on the cells. Question what about in August? Answer an extra blanket? Question or extra linen? Answer no. Question yeah, what about extra clothing? Answer I mean it wouldn't be authorized, but they could get it. Question how would they get it? Answer they could get it. They could fish it themselves. Inmates. Question you mean they can like throw a cord over, like he gets cut off by the lieutenant? Yeah. Question all right. And would that be caught on the cell Search if they were being conducted, though? Answer not all the time. Question no. Answer no. Question and how would they miss that? Answer what if they don't search the cell today? Question no, I'm saying during the cell searches, like if they search the cell. Question if they see the fishing line. Yeah. Question no, no. If they see a fishing line. But if the cell is being searched, he gets cut off by the lieutenant. And it has excessive linen. Question and it has. Would they take it at that point? Yeah, usually they take it. Okay. Anything else they're allowed to have? Answer Books, food. Yeah. Question all right. Do you know if Epstein was given any special privileges to have extra clothing or extra linen? Answer no. Question no. Do you know if he had extra clothing or extra linen? Answer no. Question I who was making sure that Epstein had the correct amount of clothing and linens? Not sure. Would it be like the shoe staff or the lieutenant or all of the above? The shoe lieutenant I'm not sure. Working in the shoe though, or previously, you don't know who would. He gets cut off by the lieutenant. Who is monitoring it? I mean, the inspector jumps in, like who would be. Who's responsible? Not let sounds like looks like no one was monitoring it. But who was actually responsible to make sure him and these guys aren't supposed to have that many, that much clothing or linen? I'm not sure because when we used to do linen, you give them three, I give you three. That's how we used to monitor it. Yes. It's supposed to be like a one for one exchange. Yeah. So I don't know who's responsible to keep an eye on his things, though. I gets cut off. Typically. Who provides the inmates with their linens? The investigator asks Answer staff. Question do lieutenants ever do that? Answer no, not really. Question so it would be the staff that's responsible then? Answer yeah, that's why I say indiscernible responsibility. I guess then. Question okay. Does the shoe lieutenant ever do it? Answer I mean, it could. I could if I wanted to. Question yeah, but typically, would it be the shoe staff? Answer yeah. Question okay. Any idea how Epstein's interactions were with other inmates? Did he ever have interactions with other inmates? Really? Answer I don't know. I know when he was first got there, he told me some guy, he was nervous because his face was on the TV and guys might try to intimidate em. That's about it, though. Question that was something he, Epstein specifically told you. He told the officer and then the officer told me. He said, hey, I didn't know who he was. I was like, alright, let me look into it. And then they moved him. Where was he? He was on his first unit, I think was 11 north. Question. So he was in general population. Answer. When he first got here? Yeah. Question all right, so people that tell us that he was in the shoe the entire time are incorrect. Answer. When he first got through, he was in general population. Question and for how long was he in general pop? Answer. Say about a day or two. Question. Are you the one that actually moved them into the shoe? Answer no. Question. Who did that? Answer. I don't know. Question. All right, but an officer reported it to you and then you he gets cut off by the lieutenant. Yeah, I know he was in general population. Question. And what did you do with the information when that was told? Answer what? Question. You said an officer said he's worried about safety. Answer yeah, I spoke to him. Question. You spoke to Epstein? Answer. I wanted to know. I said what was going on. I said, all right, we're going to look into this. And then they moved them. Question okay. Answer. Yeah. Question. But I guess my question was, did you report that information to someone and then it was a person? Answer I don't remember. I know I passed it on. I said, hey, this guy, I think he's high profile. Question okay. Answer. Look into it. I think by the captain or someone got together and they moved them, put him in a place in the shoe. Question okay, and when was the last time you interacted with Epstein? Answer. I can't recall. Question. Did you have any interaction with him on August 9th? Answer I could have. I don't know. He's right there on the floor. So I could have. Question. But you don't know. So again, dude dies the next day. You can't remember if the day before you talked with this guy when it's like the biggest case ever? Answer. Yeah. Question. You don't remember. Answer. Huh? Because I brung him up to the shoe a few times, but I don't know if I did that day. Question. I'm just saying that kind of sparks a little suspicion. Answer. I know what you're saying. Question. It's like if it's like you can't even remember the last if you talk to him on that day, the day before. Answer I mean, it's a big case, I get that. But I mean, you know, I have a job, like, you know. Question. Yeah, I mean, I'm just saying that's going to create a little bit. He gets cut off by the lieutenant. Yeah, but I can't remember if I spoke to that dude that day. Question do you remember when the last time you saw him? Answer no, I'm probably assuming that day if he was in attorney conference. Question Is that because you would have visited attorney conference? Answer yeah, the elevator is right there on the third floor here. Attorney conference is there. If I wait right here in the elevator, I see him, he's in the same room every day. Question but you can't remember if you actually spoke with him on that day? Answer no. Question Would you typically speak with him when he was in the attorney conference? Answer the only time I used to speak with him is if to say, hey, you can bring this. Hey, you going to shoe? Can you take them up? All right, come on. Question all right, now the other investigator jumps in.

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[Unnamed Lieutenant]

Can I ask a question on that? Question yeah please do. Question Just in case, I mean I know you said that you don't remember, but that's his last day, that's the last time you saw him. Do you remember who he was with that day? Answer his lawyers. Question do you remember his demeanor? Answer no Question Was he upset? Was he yelling? Did he complain about anything? Answer he used to sleep a lot. That's all I know. Sometimes you see him in there, he, he's just lying on the table, his lawyer is right there. Question While he's with his attorneys. Answer he was there. He used to be there from eight in the morning all day to a watch and evening watch. Question around what time would he show up there? Answer early, he'd be the first one there. Question and what time would that be? Answer 8 to 8:30. Question and then what time would he typically go back to the shoe? Answer before or attorney conference over at 8, so about 8. Question so basically 8am to 8pm and who are the people that would take them to the attorney conference and then bring them back to the shoe? Answer I told you, like I said, I done it sometimes. Question yeah. Answer but typically they get the guy ready and shoe bring him down if R D's out there. Hey, we gotta move them, you know, I'll take them down, whoever's going that way. Did you ever take him there to attorney conference or back to the SHU on August 9? I don't think so. I can't recall. Were you still at the mcc at around 8pm on August 9? Answer no, I wasn't there at 8. Question and what time do you believe that you left MCC on August 9? Answer between 2 and 4. Question so sometime between 2 and 4. Answer yeah. Question but you weren't back. So he was in attorney conference all that time. So the last time you possibly could have interacted with him would have been around 8am correct? Answer I mean, interacting like talking to him? Question Speaking with him? Answer yeah, I don't think I, I can't recall if I spoke. I don't think I spoke to him. I'm not sure if I did or if I didn't. The last time would have been, I mean, yeah, if I stepped into attorney conference and said something. But he gets cut off by the investigator. Okay. Answer I don't recall that. Question but you don't recall what his demeanor was or a state of mind? Answer that day? Question yeah, you just mentioned the one thing where he was worried because his, you know, he gets cut off by the lieutenant. Yeah. The first day he got there. Question he told the officer. Answer he's saying, officer, hey, there's this guy up here, his face as well. We get those calls all the time. Question do you know of any other complaints that were made? Did he ever complain to you or you get any other information about it? Answer While he was planning on getting off a suicide watch? That's about it. Question okay, and he was making those complaints to you about getting off of suicide watch? Answer he was just saying why? You guys got me. Like, I'm like, well, you talk to psych and then they'll talk to you. And they spoke to him and he went back up. Question and that was this complaint about, about being he gets cut off by the lieutenant. He was saying why was he in there? He wanted his clothes and you know. Question so he didn't want to be on suicide watch? No. Question Is that what you're saying? No, he didn't want to. So he wanted to go back to the shoe? Well, he wanted to go, yeah. Do you know if he wanted to be in the shoe or did he want to be in a different area? Answer I don't know. Question did he ever tell you Answer no, not me. Question do you believe that he was in the correct place in the shoe, or do you believe that he should have been on like 10 south or G Tier? Answer I mean, he can't be in G Tier. Can't be in 10 South. He's got to have a bunky, right? Answer. Question well, I guess it depends. Do you know what the reason why he would need a bunky? Answer his suicide attempt hot list. Question do you ever put people that are on suicide attempts or hot list in G tier or 10 south so they can have extra eyes on them? Answer I don't think no 1 in 10 south is on the hot list. I don't recall. What about G tier? What's the deal with G Tier? Like, who goes. He gets cut off by the lieutenant? Single cells? Question yeah, yeah, but they have cameras in there, right? Every one of them gets just like 10 south. Answer yeah, but nine south, some of the cameras and some of those psych sells. Question do you believe Epstein should have been in a cell with a camera in it? Answer no question. No answer I mean, yeah, if you have to have two, the ones with the camera is single cell. You can't go there, you know? Question so you believe he should have had a cellmate and he should have been in the regular shoe? Because we've had other people say that he should have been on G Tier, should have been on 10 south, but you believe he gets cut off by the lieutenant? People are saying, I mean, if you try to commit like you just showed me the memo, right? So either he needs an extra set of eyes on him and then that's even worse. I'm gonna put you in there by yourself, you saying. For an extended time. Question I guess, but. So people are saying. Because officers are watching those people all the time. Are they watching them all the time? Answer How? Question on the cameras. I don't know. Answer no. Question. So they're not actually being monitored? Answer they can't watch. No one can watch someone all the time. No question okay, so you think that it would have just been as risky, if not more risky, with him being on G tier or 10 South? Answer yeah. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here. And in the next episode, dealing with the topic we're gonna pick up, we're gonna where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive right back into the interview given by the Unnamed lieutenant from MCC to the investigators from the oig. Question okay, fair enough. Do you know why Epstein was in prison? Answer yeah. Question why underage trafficking, child molestation charges like that? Question and did you have any specific feelings regarding why he was in prison? No. Question how often would you speak with Epstein? Whenever I needed to. Question alright. And kind of conversation that had any substance to it, like substantive conversation, anything about what was like more than just like below? Answer Nah. Question no. And you said you did not work at all on August 10th? Answer that's the day it happened, right? Question yeah. Answer I wasn't there. Question and then you were definitively gone by then From MCC by 4pm on August 9? Answer I think so. Yeah, I think so. Question so you may have been gone as early as 2pm, you just can't recall. Answer yeah. Question when was your next shift? Answer that happened on what? Saturday? Question yeah, he was found on a Saturday. Answer he died on Saturday. Right? Question yeah. Answer Saturday. I don't know if I came in on Sunday. I think I came in on Sunday. Question okay, and did you at the time, did you speak with anybody about Epstein's death? Answer I mean, I know about it and everyone was talking about it. Yeah. So what was your understanding about how he died? Do you know anything about anyone else taking his life? No. Question no. Do you know anything about anyone assisting with taking his life? No. Question no. Do you believe that Epstein took his own life? Yeah. Question do you believe that Epstein acted alone and and taking his own life? Answer yes. Question all right, then there's only three more questions here. They are more open ended. What do you believe would have prevented Epstein from dying? Answer Nothing. Question Nothing. Do you think that if he was or wanted to take his life, he would have done it? Answer if it was a regular inmate, I don't even think he would have, you know. Question what are some of the systematic problems inside the MCC and specifically the shoe that allowed for Epstein to die? Answer Systematic problems? Question. You know, like he gets cut off by the lieutenant. It sounds like a union question or something like that. Question well, no, because like I told you, we're trying to look into like, hey man, you're right. Question if another inmate died, we're probably not going to be here talking to you. But this is high profile. We now need to know and figure out what went wrong here. How do we fix it? So in your opinion, what went wrong here? Answer I mean. Question and how do we fix it? We're from the government, we're here to help. Answer.

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[Unnamed Lieutenant]

My opinion, the whole cellmate leaving, that's not on nobody. I'm not. If I have the notice he had up until that time and left for one day, then this happens. I can't blame lieutenant staff notifications, you know, remember there's like 900 inmates in there. Question. Right answer. I know he's high profile, but we also have to monitor other inmates. The round situation. If that's true, that could have been a little bit. You know, you've got to make the rounds and chew counts too though, right? Answer. You've got to make rounds and counts. Question. Now going back to there, you say it's not on anybody. But if he psychology is saying he he's required to have a cellmate. It's got to be on somebody, right? If he's on the hot list, he's in the shoe where he's supposed to have a cellmate anyway. And psychology is saying he's got to have a cellmate. It's got to fall on somebody to make sure. Hey, who's supposed to make sure that this guy's got a cellmate? His cellmate is gone. He doesn't have a cellmate. Answer. So if I know if I get the notice by 8, right? So I'm evening ops watch. I get the notice. Hey, this guy doesn't have a cellmate. All right, what's my call?

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[Unnamed Lieutenant]

I just throw them in there with anybody. Question. My thought and from talking to other people are supposed to be that shoe staff should have notified the ops lieutenant or the activities lieutenant who then should have notified the captain. Answer. Yeah, at 8 I could see that. But at the time on day watch. Question. Yeah, answer. It's a judgment call. Question. And I'm not Talking about at 8am I'm saying like what you just said. Answer. I want to say that we can't indiscernible notice. Question. You don't think that the cellmate thing should be on anybody. Well, but it's like it's got to be on somebody if he's required to Have a cellmate. Somebody's got to make sure that he's got a cellmate. Answer yeah, but what if I don't remember? These guys don't even the guys on evening watch wasn't even sure it was right. It was overtime. I know. Redacted. He gets cut off by the investigator. Well, no, I'm not talking about. I'm talking about it was redacted. Answer. But if I'm the oic. Question. I think redacted. And Noel Answer he wasn't even in custody at the time. No more. Question. All right, so, but you got Tova Noel, who that's her quarterly post. Answer. Well, she did a double that day. Right? Question well, she. But yeah, but at 8pm that was her first shift. Right? Answer yeah. Question. So we're talking, we're talking now not talking about morning watch. We're talking about. You're saying 8pm Right? Answer yeah. Question so that's evening watch. So we're looking at. We are looking at. He gets cut off by the lieutenant. So if I know, if I'm notified by 8 and I call the captain, say, hey, this guy don't. What's my next move then? Throw him in with anybody. I mean, I can see them saying, whoever said that because they say, hey, kick it up. Question right Answer. You know, kick it up. Kick the blame up top. Now if I'm on, what do you want me to do, throw the guy in there with anybody just because he has to have a cellmate? Answer well, some people have said that at the very least they would have put him on like a dry cell type of situation where you've got a staff member on him until he can get placed with a cellmate. Answer yeah, but that's a questionable move, too. You want me to take him and put them on, you know? Question so you believe so I guess that's your belief then? Answer I mean, there was a time and opportunity. Guy wanted to take his life. The inmate left. He saw the time and opportunity and he did it. The officer is, you know. Question. But you don't believe, though, as a correctional officer, it's a responsibility to ensure we ensure that they don't die while in our custody. Answer well, that's what the rounds are for. That's why it's so important. Question. All right, so that's why you think it's really the rounds and the counts, but not necessarily the cellmate, but the rounds and the counts. Answer well, in the shoe, you're required to do it. You have to do it, it's for the inmate. Question. And if they're not doing the rounds, the 30 minute rounds, that's really the blame here. Answer. That's a bad situation. It's a bad situation. Question. So you blame it on rounds the way more than you would blame it on the cellmate. That's it. The cellmate, he ain't there. Yeah, you know, I mean, that happened. It's the same thing. I understand they sent out the notification. There's no time frame on it is an inmate goes, hey, you know, by the way, this guy was on. You sent this out a month ago. He's not suicidal no more. He said it. It's like, you know. Question. Well, in this case, I think it was like nine days. Yeah, but there's still no time frame. Some guys say they suicidal just to get out of shoe and play the game, go back in, but it's never saying, hey, this guy is not. There's no memo saying, does not need a cellmate. Question. Would you agree though, that it's both the fact that he was required to have a cellmate and that they weren't conducting the rounds? Answer. Yeah. Question and that's where when I talk about the problems, he gets cut off by the lieutenant. The thing is, that happened, but it's like that can happen. Hey, oh, his bunky left. I didn't put a cellmate. That can happen. You know, that can happen here. You get inmates that was crying on level two, hey, got to have a cellmate. You moved him. Yeah. Oh, you ain't check. Oh, you know. Question. Yeah. So I think that what I understand you saying is that the primary issue is not doing rounds. Secondary and the much lesser issue was that they didn't fill up his cellmate. Is that correct? Answer. Yeah. Question. Okay. And are there any other problems or violations occurring inside the MCC that we should be made aware of? Answer. Huh? Question. We're talking about the mcc. Answer. Violations. Question. Anything that we should have known about that you think needs fixed? Answer. You got a mandated lot. I know that you're working. Question. So there is what you're saying then, that they're severely understaffed? Answer. They was. I don't know how it is now, but they was. Question. And again, when did you leave there? Answer December of 19th. Question. December of 19. At that point, were they extremely understaffed? Answer Extremely. Question what about was there anything that was being fixed ever since. When Epstein died on August of 2019, did you see anything being fixed at that point? Answer. They changed the log I know that. Question what does that mean? Answer. They started putting inmates that go to court just in case we started doing them and started attaching the PP38 to the log. Question. So they would almost be part of the outcount. Answer. No, you could see, you could see all the movement. Question. Okay. Answer. You know, you could see all the movement. They started single cell memos. Every time I need to know every night, because I work the morning every night, hey, who's up there? Single cell. That was my every night thing. We started that more rounds, more reiteration of doing your rounds. I know the rounds. They got tighter with the rounds, the log. It was some things. There were some things. As far as staff, I think they did hire a class like right before, you know. Question now, has that just been a constant problem with the MCC with being like able to fill. He gets cut off by the lieutenant. Yeah, that's been a problem for a while. It wasn't like that when I first got there, though. Question and what is, why do you think that it was so hard to keep staff placed? Answer, well, I think they can't compete. It's the pay. They're not competing with other agencies. And a tough job working there is tough. Question yeah. Answer. It's not easy, I'll tell you that. Question what makes it so tough? Answer. You've got some unruly inmates. Question yeah. Answer. You got a lot of unruly inmates and you're doing some long hours. Question. Are they doing long hours because it's understaffed? Answer yeah. Question and that's what I mean. So it sounds to me, I mean, an outsider's perspective is that they need a lot more employees. Answer no, they need that. Definitely more employees. Question Is there a way for us to not only get employees but get good employees? What would be the solution here? Answer. I mean, you got to recruit, you got to take people that really want to do the job. Question. He gets cut off by the lieutenant. I mean, it takes some people that, you know, say, hey, you can make this your first year, so just going to put some work in. You've got people that want it, you know, they want the money. Question. You think it means that they should have like a higher pay at the mcc? Answer. Higher pay or you look for people that are looking for opportunity, you know. Question. Like as in make it like a rotating place. You have to do certain amount of time there and then you can go to like your choice location. What do you mean by opportunity? I guess I should say. Answer like I don't know. I know. I think it's a college requirement or credit, something like that. Is it? I don't know, I'm not sure. Question We've definitely talked to people that don't have bachelor's degrees. Answer, yeah, but I think they have some credits. I think they change it four credits. Question, yeah, some people have said some college. Answer, yeah, Question that we've talked to that they don't have. I don't think I've talked to anybody that said they didn't have college. But I mean, I think it was like a couple credits, you know. Answer yeah, but I mean, some people without college, it's one opportunity to say, hey, you can make 60 GS your first year. I just need you to show up and work, follow the rules, you know. And the credit check, I think was getting a lot of people. Question, is that right? Answer yeah, credit checks, I think that weeds out a lot of people. Question now, do you believe though, on that note, if we're doing credit checks, we're letting that slide, wouldn't that breed potential problems with introduction of contraband and being paid, you know, for bribing, bribing and bringing things in? Answer bribery and stuff? Question, yeah, because that's a big problem in the BoP. Answer, yeah, but I don't think that, I mean, you've got some people in there, I mean, that don't work, that don't know you could be. I've seen people get arrested with good credit, six figures, making six figures and do some corrupt stuff. So that's not it. Question, okay. Answer I'm not saying take everyone, but you know, it's like if you're renting to somebody and you a landlord and you say, all right, I know you ain't got the top score, but I see you pay your bills on time, you had a little student loan debt here or whatever. I'll give you a shot. Question, yeah. Answer, you know, all right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box.

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