Mega Edition: Unnamed MCC Lieutenant And HIs OIG Interview (4-7) (7/4/26)

Summary

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The Epstein Chronicles – Mega Edition: Unnamed MCC Lieutenant and His OIG Interview (4-7)

Host: Bobby Capucci
Episode Date: July 4, 2026
Primary Focus: A detailed exploration of the OIG interview with an unnamed MCC (Metropolitan Correctional Center) lieutenant, probing the events and procedures surrounding Jeffrey Epstein’s last days and removal from the facility.

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Episode Overview

This episode continues host Bobby Capucci's ongoing coverage of the Jeffrey Epstein case by diving deep into the OIG (Office of the Inspector General) interview with a key, but unnamed, lieutenant from MCC. It closely examines shift procedures, who was responsible for Epstein’s cell and movements, and the profound confusion and ambiguity within the chain of command preceding and following Epstein's death. The conversation reveals not just logistical breakdowns but the culture of uncertainty and lack of communication among staff—especially concerning the release of Epstein’s cellmate and the subsequent absence of a replacement cellmate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Court Movements and Duty Assignments at MCC

(Starts approx. [00:30])

• The lieutenant is repeatedly asked about his knowledge and involvement in the inmate removals and court movements on August 9, 2019.
• He confirms he had no role in transporting Epstein or others scheduled for court, specifying that the “R&D” (Receiving & Discharge) department handled court movements, not the activities or operations lieutenants.

Notable Quote:

“The activities lieutenant is not involved? No. Is the ops lieutenant involved? Not really, no. So who's involved? R&D. Receive and discharge.” [01:10]

• The lieutenant is also unsure about how staff assignments to R&D are made or tracked, pointing listeners to the custody roster but admitting he doesn’t know the specifics.

2. Communication Breakdowns about Inmate Status and Movements

(Approx. [02:00] – [08:00])

• The OIG investigators probe who knew when Epstein’s cellmate (“redacted” in transcript) was going “WAB” (With All Belongings, indicating a potential release or permanent movement).
• The lieutenant highlights the lack of formal or consistent notification: sometimes court or R&D might call SHU (Special Housing Unit) directly, but there’s no standard or “official” notification workflow among departments.

Notable Quote:

“R&D could have called them... They call the SHU. They wouldn’t call you guys and you would have to pass the information on? No.” [04:50]

3. Court List and Internal Paperwork Confusion

(Approx. [10:00])

• The court list (the key document for movements) is typically sent during the “morning watch” (around 2AM), but the lieutenant can’t specify whether it’s distributed the night before or the same morning. He claims he always received it the morning of, a point which investigators clarify at length.
• Staff responsible for bringing the court list to SHU are “internal” officers, and on the date in question, two specific but redacted officers were working.

4. Epstein’s Final Cellmate and “WAB” Notification Timeline

(Approx. [13:58] – [18:00])

• The OIG presses on the timeline of when staff would know Epstein’s cellmate wasn’t returning—after court, after the 4PM “count,” or sometime after 8PM.
• The lieutenant expresses uncertainty about whose precise responsibility it would be to assign a new cellmate or flag Epstein’s alone status—implying gaps in accountability.

Notable Quote:

“If he doesn’t have a cellmate, we give him a cellmate… But the lieutenant is not saying, ‘Hey, by the way…’ If they catch it, they’ll say it. But if they don’t…” [19:47]

5. Staff Response to Epstein’s Death

(Approx. [29:30])

• A blow-by-blow recounting of the morning Epstein was discovered follows, including which staff arrived when, early CPR attempts, what Epstein was wearing, and the initial shock on the unit.
• The unnamed lieutenant describes chaos and confusion, corroborating conflicting reports about CPR and timelines given by Officers Michael Thomas and Tova Noel.
• The reaction of inmates is underscored—many were openly accusing staff (“You killed him” and “You weren’t making rounds.”)

Memorable Moment & Quote:

“There was a lot of things saying inmates said that were heard… ‘You killed them. You weren’t making rounds. You killed them. You weren’t making rounds. You guys gotta get a new job. You guys are done.’” [36:30]

6. Protocols for Rounds, Counts, and Paperwork

(Approx. [42:28])

• The OIG addresses policies for shift rounds and counts—how they should be done, when, and who is supposed to complete and sign paperwork.
• The lieutenant admits knowing after the fact that “Noel and Thomas” were accused of falsifying round slips—suggesting that some paperwork was completed for rounds that never occurred.

Notable Quote:

“Did you ever hear of people filling out count slips or round sheets either before or at the very start of their shift for their entire shift or at the end of the shift for their entire shift? Not before this incident… After the incident? Yeah, that they didn’t count, they were just filling out slips.” [43:30]

• The investigators laboriously compare count slips and round sheets, walking the lieutenant through documentation to establish which staff were on duty, when, and if base counts changed as expected.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• Chain of Command Ambiguity:

  “That's not our department.” [02:40]
  The lieutenant’s repeated refrain highlights systemic compartmentalization at MCC.

• On Communication and Notifications:

  “If an inmate goes to court and then is released… R&D will say, ‘Hey, that guy’s not coming back.’” [07:00]

• More on Procedures:

  “There's no notification. If he doesn't have a cellmate, we give him a cellmate.” [19:50]

• On Rounds and Policy:

  “Making sure that they're in compliance with the policy… There’s no way to verify if the rounds were actually done unless you're doing or checking video.” [44:00]

• Denial of Conspiratorial Knowledge:

  “No conspiracy… No, I didn't know nothing about it until after I saw it in the news.” [50:00]

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Timeline of Important Segments

• 00:30 – 06:00: Initial questioning; staff roles, confusion over R&D and SHU responsibilities.
• 06:00 – 13:30: Deep dive into court lists, notification breakdowns, unclarity on how/when information is communicated or committed to paper.
• 13:58 – 24:00: Specifics on who was present after the 4PM count, possible points where someone could/should have realized Epstein was left without a cellmate.
• 29:30 – 41:00: Minute-by-minute account of the morning Epstein was found, physical details in the cell, and staff and inmate reactions.
• 42:28 – End: In-depth review of count/round protocols, paperwork examination, and the witness’s professional (and personal) distancing from responsibility.

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Analytical Insights

• The OIG struggled to identify a single person or role ultimately responsible for ensuring that Epstein was not left without a cellmate—a critical procedural failure.
• There was a culture of limited communication and flexibility in processes; much day-to-day work depended on oral handoffs or informal notifications, with minimal documentation.
• Staff members, when questioned, often pointed to “not my department” or simply couldn’t recall key details—amplifying the sense of chaos and institutional malfunction later reported in connection with Epstein’s death.

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Tone and Takeaways

The episode is methodical and at times repetitive, mirroring the painstaking approach of investigators confronting staff who resist (or are unable) to recall or clarify procedure. There’s a recurring motif of “no one’s to blame” and “nobody knew or was told,” which fits the bigger narrative of systemic issues and deniability within MCC as they pertain to one of the case’s most scrutinized deaths. The tone is factual, focused, and unsparing—reflecting The Epstein Chronicles' no-nonsense approach.

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End of Summary
For more detail, reference episode timestamps indicated above, or review the podcast’s description for access to relevant documents.

Transcript

[OIG Investigator]

Hey everybody.

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[OIG Investigator]

What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with the unnamed lieutenant and the interview with the OIG investigators. Question. When did you become aware that inmate redacted was removed from MCC on August 9, 2019? Answer. I don't know. Question. What is he gets cut off by the lieutenant. The only thing I heard is I know I woke up. They're saying, I saw the story. What is your involvement as the activities lieutenant that day with inmates who are going to court? I didn't have any involvement. So the activities lieutenant is not involved? No. Is the ops lieutenant involved? Not really, no. So who's involved? Rd. Receive and discharge. Okay. And do you remember who was working in R and D that day, that morning? No. Are you able to tell by looking at that? How does that work? How do you find out who was in R and D for the day on that morning? That's the custody roster. I'm not sure. So that's a different roster? Yeah. What would that roster be called? I don't know. You're not sure? That's not our department. So did they come and retrieve those individuals from the shuffle or does the shoe bring them to R and D? Answer. It depends. If it gets busy, you say, hey, I need help, they go up and help you out. If not the shoe crew. All right, take them down. Question. So if they were at a non busy traditional way, who would have been the people on that roster? Answer. The shoe crew question. And who on that day? Answer. You mean for the court movements? Question. Yeah. Like what time? First of all, I guess I should say. Answer. It depends. That's what I'm saying. So it depends on if they're going to Brooklyn or wherever. You start early at 6. So that would be a morning watch or day watch Question. So it would be one of the other and does not. Let's say if it was 8am who would have done it? Answer. Day watch crew question and who was on the day watch that day. Answer Redacted, Redacted and redacted. Question and anybody any of those people do you remember speaking about redacted? Answer no. Question all right, and who is the oic? Who was the officer in charge of that crew? Answer Redacted. Question Redacted was not redacted. Answer According to this, it was redacted. Question okay, so on the document, it's redacted. All right, I'm going to show you a memoir that was written by redacted on August 12, 2019. And it's the subject is past information from Special Housing Unit. It says on Friday, August 9, 2019, at approximately 1:50pm ISOS redacted, passed on to oncoming staff officers. Redacted and present shift staff. SOS redacted and officer redacted that inmate redacted was going WABC and possibly may not return. Also, that inmate Epstein will be needing a cellmate upon arrival from his attorney visit. So does that refresh your memory? Did you have any conversation with redacted? Answer no. Question who would have made Redacted aware that Redacted was going wab? Answer he could see it on the roster. They send a sheet up the night before. Question so if that's not on the night before, if on the night before there's no WAB, and this is at 1:50pm that this notification was made. Note, if there's no WAB. Well, first of all, what's WAB stand for? Answer with all belongings. Question and if WAB is not next to the name on the night before the Aug. 8 roster, how would he be aware at around 150, would normally the court call R D and R D pass that information along? Answer R D could have called them. Question so would R D call SHU directly, or would they typically call the OPS or Activities lieutenant? Answer they call the shu. Question they do call SHU directly. They wouldn't call you guys and you would have to pass the information on? Answer no. Question okay, so is it your belief then that if it's that in fact, what happened if Redacted went to court and then he became wab? Just tell me, what's your understanding? Answer I'm not sure how that one question of how that would work? Answer I'm not sure about that. Question yeah, I'm not saying specifically how he got it. What would be the typical way that would work? If an inmate goes to court and then is released, how does that process work once that inmate is released, what happens from that point for the court and how do they make the notification known to the McCarthy all the way down to where that inmate was housed, specifically this one in the shoe? Answer R D. Hey, that guy's not coming back? Question and then would they typically say, now, wab, Would that be the words that they typically use, or would they say, he's not coming back? Answer either or the Wab is something that's on the roster. Question okay, so is Wab specific to the roster, or is Wab also, if he was called and told? Question I'm not sure. I don't know. I've seen it before on the roster. Like, hey, this is the court list. It says wab. Question Right? And I'm saying in this circumstance, if there is no WAB next to the name, he gets cut off by the lieutenant. I'm not sure. Okay, but you didn't have any conversations with redacted? Answer no. Question no. And you seem pretty confident with that. Not like I can't recall. You did not have any conversations with redacted? Answer yeah, I had no conversations with them. Question what about with redacted? Did you have any conversation with redacted about redacted going wab or not coming back? Answer I can't recall that either. Question did you know that redacted had left that day for court? Answer no. Question so then therefore, did you not know that he was coming back? Answer no, I didn't know. Question okay, and you didn't know or don't remember if you actually did a round in the shoe to see if he was in there? Answer no. Question so can you recall any conversation you had that day about redacted? I don't think I had any conversations about redacted. That's what I'm asking. So you can't recall any conversation you had that day about. No. Question and you don't think you had any. No. Question no. Okay. All right, we're going to continue with this, but before they move on, the other investigator jumps in. So just to clarify, the night before, how would MCC get to know that redacted is leaving? Answer well, like I said, the court list. Question the court list, who creates it? Answer but sometimes that's not always accurate. Question who creates it? Answer R D. Question and it doesn't show who's in R D over there, right? Answer no. Question no, but R D creates the court list. And what do they do with that court list? Answer they send it out to all of the units. So you get one. If you're a unit officer, you'll get it and say, okay, I got three guys leaving because it says wab. So you say, hey, wake up. We're packing up and we're leaving. Question they send the whole list or they just did the email saying, hey, these are the inmates leaving from here? Answer yeah, I've never seen an email. I've just seen the list. Question okay, and it's just like a generic email that goes to everyone. Answer It's a call list. Question but sorry, I want to make sure that I understood what you just said. Is it provided by email or is it provided he gets cut off by the lieutenant? I've never seen it provided by email. Question so you've never seen it on email? It's just a list that's provided. So who R and D comes and gives it to the shoe? Answer no, they send it up. Question so internal comes and gets it. Answer Internal yeah. Question so on this date, would you know who would have been internal who would have provided that list to the shoe? Answer I see who's internal, but I'm not. I don't know if they would have provided it. We've got two internals. Question and who are the two internals? Answer Redacted phonetic and redacted. Question all right, so they're the two that typically you not saying that they did, but they're typically the people who would have provided the court list. Answer yeah, internal. That's what they usually do. It could have been as sanitation. Now, isn't the list typically provided the day before or is it just created the day before? I don't know. Is it provided the day before? Yeah, it was provided the same day. Question it is. Answer your get about. You get the morning watch the day of. Question I was always, I was under the understanding that it was the night before on August 8th, they would create the list for the morning on August 9th. Do you know was that a correct understanding? I'm not sure. All I know is if you're an officer, you get it the day of all right. And you've worked in the shoe before? Yeah. Question okay, so when you worked in the shoe, it would come in that morning? Answer yeah. Question around what time would it arrive? Answer about 2 in the morning. I know that's early. Question oh, super early. So it would come in on morning watch. Answer yeah, Morning watch. Question okay, and are there people in internal working at that time? Around 2am yeah. Question and is that the same people that you just listed? Yeah. Question so those morning watch individuals are the ones that would probably have provided the Court list. Yeah. And do you know, is that document maintained anywhere? The court list document? No. Question. Is that like uploaded in any kind of system? Not that I know of. No. You said that RD creates it, but they created in a system. Answer. I don't know. I mean, that's not my department. Question. Okay, is there like an officer in charge of R D? Answer. Yeah. So you have a cmc and do you know who in August would have been that person? Question. Answer. In August? No, because I know that the CMC was out for a while and they got. They also had a supervisor. Question. And do you know who that would be? No, but they had a supervisor. I know that's their position, but I don't know who it was. And that would be like a lieutenant? No. Who would he gets cut off by Lieutenant. Lieutenant in custody. R and D is non custody. Explain to me what R and D is as far as he gets cut off by the lieutenant. That's receiving and discharge. So they deal with the inmate movement, the inmate courts, the transfers, the self surrenders. Question. And you're saying that they're not called lieutenants or anything. What are their titles? Answer. Correctional system officer. Question. Correctional Systems officer. And like a supervisor, would they still be like he gets cut off by the lieutenant supervisor. Correctional systems officer. Question. And would that be like a 9 or. Or an 11 type? Answer? Something like that. Question. All right, but they're just outside of. You said custody. Underneath. What's the system that they're underneath? Answer. It's the non custody and custody question. Okay. Answer. And they have correctional officer. A correctional worker. As opposed to custody is a correctional officer. Question. Okay, and who would be. Does the captain also have oversight over them? No. Who has oversight over them? Non custody. The cmc. They have a supervisor. What does the CMC mean? Correctional Management Coordinator. Okay. And that is outside the captain's purview. Yup. And you don't remember who that was at the time? No. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off.

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[OIG Investigator]

All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to pick up where we left off with the witness statement given by the unnamed lieutenant from MCC to the OIG investigators. Question okay. And you said you did not have any conversations at all. So you didn't have any conversations with about redacted? No, not that I remember. What about with redacted? No Question no, but he would have been he relieved. Redacted? I can't recall. Question no. Answer Nope. Question and was redacted. Do you remember if you had any kind of interaction with her at all on August 9th? Answer no question no. So obviously you can't remember if you had any conversations about redacted? Answer no, I don't remember discussing redacted. Question Right. So did you ever receive any call around 1:50 or at any time saying that redacted was going wab? No. So at this point in time, obviously you're saying you didn't know anything at that point in time. Now, after the fact, what do you know about redacted being removed from the mcc? I just know that he went to court and he never came back and that was it. Question do you know any information about who was informed that he wasn't coming back? Answer no Question so even after the fact, you don't know? Answer no Question do you know anything? I mean, was it at all discussed, like, hey, somebody dropped the ball there? Answer no Question no. There wasn't even a conversation. Answer I mean, that's the thing. I don't recall him going, I didn't know me personally, I didn't know he was going wab and I don't think a lot of the other people did either. Question did anyone ever ask you about that? Answer about redacted no Question Even after Answer no Question so like on August 10, August 11, August 12, did anyone come up to you and say, hey, did you know redacted wasn't coming back? Answer no Question and have you ever been interviewed for this matter before? Answer no Question no. Did you have a conversation with people like redacted or redacted or anyone regarding this matter after Epstein was found? Answer what matter Question Epstein being found and not having a cellmate? Answer no. Question no. You never talked to anybody in the institution about that? Answer about him not having a cellmate or are you talking about him being found? Question no. About him not having a cellmate. Answer. I mean, we sent a hey, what happened? Or like, what happened to his cellmate? He got released. Okay. It was. He said it was like that, but nothing. No, not like that. Question Was it any conversation of like, hey, why didn't they put a new cellmate with him? Answer no. Question no. So if at around 150 he gets cut off by the lieutenant. That's what I'm saying. That's the time. That's why I'm looking at you saying 150. Question yeah, I mean, this is where I'm getting the 150 is because it says redacted. Knows that at least by 150 he's going WAB. Should he have communicated with either or redacted about that? Answer I don't know. I don't know how he communicated with Question No, I'm not asking who he did. I'm asking you, should he have Answer. I mean, I know when I was OIC and they give us a call. Okay, so if he didn't say nothing to the lieutenant, I could see why. I mean, you're telling me on the OIC and okay, I got the notification. Question Is it abnormal that he didn't pass it on, though? Should have he passed it on to you? Answer it's not. It's not. I mean, he gets cut off by the investigator. Could have he placed another inmate with someone like Epstein? Answer I'm not sure. Because then again, it says possibly wabs get canceled. They get canceled. That's why the 150 we don't know until after, like, hey, who is this guy coming back? R D is open at 8, 9. So about what time would they normally make that notification that, okay, he gets cut off by the lieutenant after four. Question after four. Yeah. Question and is it some. When you say after 4, is it usually between 4 and 5? Answer after 4. Anytime after 4. Question so anywhere from 4 to 5, 4 to 6, 4 to 8. So after the 4pm count. Answer after the 4pm count. Question and why is it after the count? Question because that's when the guys come back. After the count, we do the 4 o' clock count and then you get an indiscernible base count. Change is like this. You get 20 guys coming back from court. This WAB got canceled. Question. So as far as the 4 o' clock count, or is it at that point, do people start saying, well, where are these guys? And start making calls, are they coming back or not? Answer at four. No. Question no. So when is the next time that they would be listed on that count. Answer the 9 o' clock count. Question the 10 o' clock count. Answer oh, the 10 o' clock count. Yeah. Question do you want to ask some more questions on that line? I'm just trying to. Because I thought it was, I felt people have told and at 4 that that's when they start making calls to say is this guy coming back or not? That's not your understanding? Answer why would you make a call at 4? Question because you've got to know if they're coming back to the unit or not coming back. Answer well, the count 345 is over, so you're in the unit or not. So at 4 o' clock we do the count. After the count, that's when the guys come in from court. That's when we get the guys coming back to the shoe and and going back to their units. Question and would you be, would anybody be notified prior to 4 that people were or were not coming back? Not to my understanding, no. Question. Alright, so to your understanding it's not until 4 or later that this, you know, people would know redacted was not coming back? Answer yeah. Question alright, so if redacted doesn't come back after 4pm who on that daily assignment roster would be responsible for making notifications or determining that Epstein needed a cellmate? Answer I mean, the notification is here. We already have the notification. Yeah, I know. You're pointing to the email that says that he requires to have a cellmate. What I'm asking is, okay, four on at some point after four, you're saying redacted. It's known that redacted is now not coming back. Not possibly not coming back, but he's not coming back. Who would be responsible for placing for making notifications that hey, redacted's out, Epstein does not have a cellmate, we need to start making some notifications. Answer I mean, I don't know. There is no notification. That's if he doesn't have a cellmate, we give him a cellmate. Question. Yeah, so what I'm saying is he gets cut off by the lieutenant. But the lieutenant is not saying, hey, by the way, you know, if they catch it, they'll say it. But if they don't, he gets cut off again by the investigator. And I'm not saying it's a lieutenant's responsibility. What I'm asking is whose responsibility is it? Answer. To say, hey, this guy, get him a cellmate or make a notification. Question yeah, like who would be the first one to know that redacted is no longer there. Would it be the shoe? Answer I'd say rd. Question so R D would be there. What's R D's responsibility at that point? Answer oh hey, we've got all the inmates back. It's such and such and that's it. You ain't get em then they're not coming back, they're gone. Question but would R D be responsible for saying hey shoo, redacted isn't coming back or would they say hey ops Lieutenant isn't coming back. Who would notify rd? I'm not sure. In the past I would say they call in shoe directly. Question. Shoe directly. Yeah. Question alright, so in the shoe after four, who is working? Redacted. Noelle and redacted. Redacted. Noelle and redacted. Are they the only three? That's the only three listed. Question okay, so one of those three were likely notified? Answer I'm not sure. Question okay, and if they weren't notified, at what point would they know redacted isn't coming back?

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[OIG Investigator]

Answer I'll say about 8 o'. Clock. Question and how would they be notified? Answer because usually all the inmates are by then, you know, talking to the lieutenant. Hey, is anyone else coming down there? That's like a follow up call. Question Is there some point when they should be saying hey this guy left at 8 this morning, he's still not back? Answer no. You said is it at some point? Yeah. Question so, and at what point is that? Is it during the count or is it? Or is there like, you know, duties that they're doing prior to the count where they've got to make sure that people are there? How does that work? You've worked in the shoe. So from your recollection from when you worked in the shoe, how would that work? Especially being that MCC is a jail, not a prison where people could at any time be released or moved. How does that work in the shoe? I used to have like that, I think set by 8 o'. Clock. I'm sorry, what did you say about 8? By 8 o' clock is when I say, hey, is anyone else, like, coming up? And this is the base count. Like, I want to get everything straight in the computer. I'll say 8 o'. Clock. Question and on that date, when those three people were working, who would typically be responsible for doing something like that? Is it like shoe 1, shoe 2, 2, 3? Or is it just anybody, any one of them? Or how does it work? Answer to do what? Question to say, like, hey, we've got to make sure our base count is correct. Answer I mean, it could be any one of them. Question Any one of them. Answer yeah. Question but it's not like someone's job. It's just someone should take the role. Answer. I mean, but they've got to have the base count right for the 10 o'. Clock count. Question. So one of those people should have got the base count right, but it's not one specific person's duty or is it something that they're supposed to collaborate on altogether? Answer I mean, it depends. It depends if you're working, hey, such and such indiscernible. If you're number two, you know, you go to the board, you could change it yourself, you know, the oic, all right? You know, making sure everything is in order. Question Was there an OIC on that night? Answer yes. Question who? Answer. Redacted. Question so redacted was the oic. Answer yeah. Question so technically, he's probably the one who should have been responsible to catch the fact that their base count changed and he wasn't coming back. I'm not sure about that. Because he was non custody. I'm not sure. Question okay, Answer. Because you see, he's non custody. Mine was non custody. He's just up there for overtime. So I'm not sure. Question. Okay, now, as far as the lieutenant's job. So at that point in time, it was redacted. That was the ops. And redacted, that was the activities. What's their role in ensuring that? Redacted is 1, back and 2, Epstein is placed with a new cellmate. Answer yeah. Question do they have any role or is it all on the shoe? Answer I mean, it's. They don't have a role, you know, gets cut off by the investigator. What about when you're conducting the rounds as part of their responsibility to say, to check that kind of stuff, or is it just to see what inmates are there and that the inmates that are there are. Okay? Answer Pretty Much. You've got to do a round. Question does that round entail verifying that Epstein has a cellmate and redacted isn't there? Answer I'm not sure about that. We just know we do our rounds. Question so that goes back to what does a round entail? Does that mean that you need to verify that the people that are on the books are there and other people are removed? Answer yeah, with staff and accountability for the most part, you know, inmates banging hey, all right, I'll be up doing my round. I'll deal with this when I get up there. Question but when you say for accountability, what does that entail? Presence of inmates. Depending on who goes up there, they know, okay, this is on. They try certain things. They won't try certain things. Are you comparing a list of the inmates that you know to be in the shoe with who's actually in the shoe? Answer no, not for a round. No Question no. Alright, so as far as the round conducted by a lieutenant, would they know? Would they be able to figure out that redacted was removed? Answer Depending on what time the round was? Question and can you give me more explanation? What time would that change? Answer if I do an early round and Epstein's in a cell by himself, Okay, I still have time. Still doing core movements and it wouldn't raise no suspicion or no alarm. Okay, so about what time? When would there be a suspicion or an alarm that would be raised? Answer I told you at about 8. Question 8. Answer yeah. Question because redacted hasn't been back. Answer yeah. All right, folks, we're going to wrap up right here. And in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're going to pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're picking up where we left off with the electrical engineer and his interview with the OIG investigators.

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[OIG Investigator]

Question so that was August 9th. You left that day, what time? Answer on maybe the end of my shift, 2:00pm or maybe like an hour later. Question 2:00pm Answer yeah, 2:00pm or maybe three. When did you come back on shift? 6:00am in the morning on August 10th? Yes. And what do you recall happened on August 10th? As soon as I came to the front door, I heard a body alarm on 10 South. And then I ran up to the body alarm on 10 South. I mean, 9 South. Question and who hit the body alarm? I don't know. I guess the officer, whoever's on 10 and 9 South. Question and when you got up there, what did you see? I don't know. I saw. What did you see? We were all just. I don't know. What did I see? I got up there. Question let's start off then, who was up there and when you got up there? Okay, when I got up there, I got on the elevator with who did I get on the elevator with? I think it was redacted from food services. Was there redacted? Was there and redacted and I think Lieutenant at the time was Lieutenant Redacted when I got upstairs. Those are the officers that I remember. And then the officers that were on the unit were Officers Thomas and Officer Noel. And then I just remember us saying we needed to get the stretcher from the hallway and an AD machine and then they took him and put them on the stretcher. And I think after a little while the medical PA came upstairs and then started working on him. And then me and Redacted were still doing chest compressions. We took him to the second floor until the ambulance came. Question okay, I'm going to step back a little bit. So when the body alarm went off, right, and you were in the elevator with Redacted and redacted when you got up there, who was up there? I think lieutenant Redacted, I think was upstairs already. Maybe not. And then I know Ms. Noel was there. Question Noel, Is that Noel? Answer I don't know how to say the name right. Question Tova Noel. Answer Tova Noel. She was there and Thomas was there. Question okay, is that Michael Thomas? Answer yeah, Michael Thomas. Question so you were one of the very first people on the scene? Answer yeah. Question Possibly the first. Maybe Lieutenant Redacted Answer yeah, they probably. I think they might have got up there before we did. I'm not too sure. Question when you say they was there someone other than that? Answer There was everybody in the elevator and it was just like a malaise or he gets cut off. But you said you were one of the first. So when you arrived to the cell, what did you see? I saw Thomas picking him up, and people were helping him put him on the stretcher. Okay, so when did you start doing the chest compressions? Like, right away on the stretcher, though? Yeah. Okay, but not on the floor? No, I don't believe on the floor. Well, that's a lie from Michael Thomas then, right? Remember what he said and remember what Tova said. They were lying. Question Sorry, I'll turn it back over to you, the other investigator. No, it's the same. Question. So when you walk in, let's say you walk into the shoe. Was the gates open already? Answer the tier where he was on was open, and I don't remember if the sally port door was open because the inner door, I think somebody had to open that door. Question okay, so you walk in and you head right up to the tier. Answer yeah, because we know that was the tear. Something was happening on. Question who was standing there? Answer I believe Thomas. Question Thomas was inside or was outside? Answer I think he was inside the tier. Question Was anybody outside the tier? Answer I think Noel was outside the tier because usually the way SHU works is one officer is in the tier and one officer is outside of the tier one. A key question and out of the few people that came up in the elevator, were you the first one in the room or was there somebody else? Answer I think Lieutenant redacted was there. He was pretty much directing everybody what to do. Question and you come in, you walk up the stairs from ltr. Answer mtr. He was on mtr, I think. Which is the top? No, it's ltr. Yes. Question and do you recall which cell it was? Answer the first one. As soon as you go into the tier. Question. So you go up there, you look in, and what is it that you see? Answer what do I see, Epstein? Like, not tangible, like, not moving, not doing anything. And then everybody's, like, gathered around them, and when we tried to move them to the stretcher and then we started working on him on the stretcher. Question Was anyone performing CPR when you walked in? No, I don't believe so because I think they were trying to cut him down before I got up there. I'm not saying I know exactly what happened, but I'm pretty sure that they were cutting him down because he did have some stuff wrapped around him. So I think that's what happened. Question so describe it. What was he wearing? Answer Huh. I know it's kind of tough, but he had his orange boxers and an orange T shirt. I don't know if he had socks on or not. So he had orange boxers and he had an orange T shirt on? Yes. And what else did he have on him? I think whatever he wrapped around him, they were trying to cut that off and move that out of the way. Question so was it around his neck? Answer When I got there, I didn't see. I can't tell you what was wrapped around them, but when I did see him, I did see his neck was a little bit bruised though. Question did he have anything on his head? Headphones, anything like that? Do you recall? Answer not that I recall, no. Question and then where was he laying when you walked in? Answer I think it was. By the time I got in there, they were moving them and it was just get the stretcher and the aed. Question okay. And CPR was done and then he was taken out? Answer we were working on him and then medical came up and kept working on him and then we took him downstairs. Question do you recall how many mattresses were on the floor, if there were any? I don't recall. Question okay, is there anything about when you walked in that stood out to you about that cell? Answer no, nothing really distinctive. Just a shoe cell. And you mentioned you saw a bruising. Where did you see the bruising? Answer around his neck? Question on all sides or just one side? I think around all sides. Okay. And after they took him to medical, did you follow them down? Yeah, it was me. And redacted. We were doing chest compressions on him until the second floor and then we were in medical and redacted was making his phone calls and. And notifications and I don't know if redacted gave him a shot, but we had to keep working on him. Question Redacted is in medical. Answer and the medical guy. And then they tried to give him an AED machine upstairs and it didn't work. And I think the AED machine was still working on him when we took him downstairs. We were still pumping his chest. Question and after the medical office, was he brought to the hospital? Answer that part I don't know about. After all that happened, I just knew that everything was short staffed and since I came in to do my job, there was nobody in custody. So after all that I went up to special housing unit and I worked there for about an hour. Question so you went back to the shoe? Answer yeah. Question what did you do? Answer Settled inmate population down. They get a little rowdy when they see stuff happen and don't know what's going on, so you've got to just kind of do custody work. Question who was in the shoe when you were up there? Answer it was me. Lieutenant Redacted. I believe she came up from somewhere. Lieutenant Redacted. Was there and Officer Noel was there? Question she was still there? Answer yes. Question what was she doing? Answer. She just looked a little disheveled, like she didn't know what was going on. Just stressed because that was her first suicide. So when you see something like that, you kind of don't know how you would react. Question did you talk to her about it? Answer I don't believe so. I just kind of let her do her thing and I just had to get to because they were feeding in the morning time. So you have to, you know, try to settle everything down. Question when you got up there and initially, do you recall if Officer Michael Thomas or Noel Tova Noel made any statements, any comments to the lieutenant? I don't really recall. It was like a mess. I don't really know what was said. Did you assist redacted in giving out food? Answer yes. Question Were you in the same tier with them when she handed out the food? Answer yes. Question do you recall any interaction between her and the inmates? There was a lot of things saying inmates said that were heard not right. So what kind of stuff did the inmates say? Answer. You killed them. What? They said you killed them. You weren't making rounds. You killed them. You weren't making rounds. You guys got to get a new job. You guys are done. A lot of you this, your mother that, you know, it was just gets cut off by the investigator. Did redacted say anything back to them? Answer I don't believe so. I don't know what she said to the inmates. Like, like I said, it was just. I don't know what was said back and forth. Question do you recall if any comments were made about providing an alibi for the COs? Answer no, I don't believe so. Question Anything else on that? The other investigator. A lot. So we'll just go in reverse order. So when you said you killed them, who killed them? Answer they, like the officers killed Epstein. Question did they, Were they referring to any specific officer? Answer the officers that were up there, Thomas and Noel. Question so they were saying that they killed them? Answer yeah, you guys killed them. Question and did they say anything specifically about that? Answer no, they was just. They were upset, so they were just saying it, but they didn't say how? Question did anyone say he gets cut off? They didn't say that they went in the cells to try to kill him or open the grill. They just said you guys killed them. Question and what was did you ask any follow up questions with regard to that? Answer I just know not to say anything. So I just do what I have to do and I don't get involved in that. Question did they provide any other information with regard to you when they were saying someone killed them? Answer Just that they didn't do rounds. That was pretty much about it. Question did they say anything more about not doing rounds or just said that they didn't do any rounds or what did they say about that? Answer they didn't do any rounds. They were sitting there all night. I don't think they came over here once. Question they said they came over once. Answer they never came. They never did any rounds. Question they said they never did one. Answer no. Question oh, so they never did one? Answer yeah Question Is that what you mean? Answer yeah. Question okay, did they mention when the round stopped? Answer no. Question no. All right, you said that when you came back it was Tova, Noel and yourself. Just the three of you? Answer Yes, I believe so. Question Was Thomas already gone then? Answer yes all right folks, we're gonna wrap this bad boy up right here and in the next episode we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in the description box. What's up everyone? And welcome to another episode of the Epstein Chronicles. In this episode we're going to dive right back in to the interview given by the unnamed lieutenant from MCC to the OIG investigators. Question okay, do all cos who work in the shoe know how to properly conduct and report counts and rounds? Answer I'm not sure. Question should they know how to do counts and rounds? Answer yeah. Question and how should they know what's going on?

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[OIG Investigator]

Answer Training Question and do you think everyone there got enough training to know how to do a count and around? Answer yeah. Question did you ever hear of people like filling out count Slips or round sheets either before or at the very start of their shift? For their entire shift or at the end of the shift? For their entire shift. Not before this incident. Question did you hear about that after the incident? Yeah. What did you hear about that? That they didn't count. I mean, it was filling out slips. It wasn't counted making the rounds. And who was it that you heard that wasn't conducting counts and rounds? Thomas and Noel. Anybody else in there? No. Did you hear anything about counts and rounds not being conducted prior to midnight on August 10th? So anytime on August 9th, did you hear about any of those counts and rounds not being conducted? Answer on the morning watch, then answer anytime on August 9th, so this date? Answer no. Question Even after the fact, you never heard about like the 10pm count or the 4pm count? The count's not being conducted. Answer no. Question. You haven't heard that? Answer no. I don't know. Not that I know of some what counts on these days? Question yeah. Answer no. You have the 4pm count? You have the 10 count? Yeah. The midnight count? Yeah. Question Right. So what I'm asking Did you hear that? Indiscernible. Wasn't done. Answer no. Question now, do lieutenants sign the counts or the the rounds? Answer the rounds, not the counts. Question so what's the lieutenant's responsibility for signing the round sheet? Answer Making sure that they're in compliance with the policy? Question all right. And do they have to Is there any way for them to verify if the rounds were actually done? Answer no. Unless you're doing or checking a video question you just is. What you do is just make sure that it's actually filled out. Answer correctly. Question Correctly filled out. All right. I'm going to. I apologize for this. It's gotten a little longer, so I'm going to show you. What is this that I'm showing you? Answer. It's a round sheet. Question all right. And what's the round sheet from? Answer the ninth. Question the ninth. Did you have anything well, as the activities Lieutenant, would you have had anything to do with signing off on any of these? Answer yeah. Question which ones would have you signed off on? Answer. Day watch. Question okay, and are you on that? Did you sign any of that? Answer yeah. Question where is your signature? Answer on the day shift? So the other investigator pipes in. So that's your actual signature? Answer yeah. Question Is that from the shoe? Answer yeah. Question who else signed that? Answer the officer. Which officer? I'm not sure. You can't tell by looking at that no. All right. And around what time would of you sign that, do you know? Sometime on my shift. Alright, so does that indicate that you would have then conducted a round in the shoe? I'm not sure. Would you have signed that in the shoe? Honestly, I'm not sure. Question how else would have you gotten it? I'm not sure. Question so is the shoe sheet ever sent outside of the shoe for the lieutenants to sign? Answer I'm not sure. I can't recall on this day. Question. But what I'm asking is like have you ever signed one of these round sheets outside of the shoe? Answer I'm not sure. Question. Or is it typically that the lieutenant would sign the sheet in the shoe because aren't they maintained in the shoe? Typically that's what would happen. So typically you would have signed this in the shoe, correct? Yeah. Question Would you have signed this after the last one was filled out? I'm assuming they wouldn't fill one out after you signed it, would they? Answer I'm not sure. So this one says 205 to 207. Wouldn't that typically mean that you would have been there at least till 2? I'm not sure. But looking at this document, does that indicate to you that if you signed it you would have signed it? Do you ever sign. Are these continued to be filled out after. Sorry. After the lieutenant signs it? Yeah. Question so even for day watch right here? Yeah. Question so you can sign it at any point during this and then they continue to fill it out? Answer yeah. Question all right, and that's what I'm asking. How does that work? I don't know. So I'm asking. Answer. I mean it's eight hours. Question. So at any point from 8:00am until basically 2 2:07pm you could have signed that. Answer. Yes. Question. Okay, and these are genuine questions, they're not to trick you. Answer. No, I understand, but it does seem like that is what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Like he gets cut off by the investigator. I promise you. I'm just asking like this isn't like an I gotcha moment. There's no I got your moments in this. This is just asking for your like your recollection on this. Answer. Yeah, I understand that, but that's why I said I'm not sure about that, I don't know when I signed it Question. All right. And that. So what I'm asking you, like is this something typically that you would have done? And again, it's not a gotcha Answer yeah, but again, I'm not sure. Question it's just a genuine so you don't know. But so most of the time, I mean these are maintained in the shoe. And this is again, this is our learning experience by talking to people like you lieutenants that were there. It's again not an I gotcha. It's trying to figure out how does the process work. Answer but also I'm not trying to incriminate myself or nothing. That's what I'm saying. I'm not sure. Question but what I'm asking I guess is I don't even know what there would be to incriminate you with. But like what I'm asking is like how does the process work if you give this person a round sheet? Are these round sheets signed in the shoe? Answer Typically. Question Typically. All right. And are you aware of them ever not being signed in the shoe? Not that I know of. Question alright, so at least more likely than not you sign this document in the shoe at some point between 8 and 2pm yeah. So that means you probably did a round in there. Yeah. Question alright, and if it was between 8 and 2, both redacted and Epstein were not in their cells at the time. Correct. Answer okay. Question I mean this isn't like again and I gotcha, I'm just trying to figure out like where you fall in this whole thing. Answer so that's what I'm saying to figure out, where do I fall into this whole thing? Answer because this is your idea, that's what where we're talking to you just specifically about all right, Redacted was gone. At some point he goes wab. We don't know he gets cut off by the lieutenant. So you're trying to say who's to blame for it. The other investigator pipes in. Well, it's just trying to figure out what happened. We've got to talk to he gets cut off by the lieutenant, he left and that's what happened. Question Right. And you, when you were there, there was no conversation that you had with anyone? Answer no conspiracy. No it's not. He gets cut off by the investigator. No, no, no. We're not asking for a conspiracy. It's just we need to know who what conversations happened where where did he gets cut off by the lieutenant I didn't know nothing about it until after I saw it in the news. Question and this is also me showing you this now is more letting you know like okay, that looks like you probably were there. Does that help spark recollection? Answer I Had no conversation with neither one of them that day? Not that I recall. Question. None of them that day. Answer. No. Question. All right, can you tell does this look like an RSC to you? Answer. I don't know who signature that is. Question. All right, so on day watch there was an S. Redacted. P Redacted. M redacted as well as redacted. Does that look like any of these people to you? I'm not sure. Alright, so you, you don't recall. And as we go, do you mind just initialing or whatever? Okay, you got those two. If you don't mind initialing this, this and this. Now, although this is voluntary, I guess we do have to just make sure we know. It also has to be. The answers are truthful. You're under oath, so that also. So lack of candor can also be constituted by not providing full information or like hiding information. Answer no, if I remember, it'll. And I don't hide anything, but if I remember, then I will say it. Question. Okay. Answer. But when you come with these saying it looks like, hey, by the way. Yeah. And if I'm like, I know I'm being that day. I know it's a big profile case. Hey, let's get such and such. They fill this and then he gets cut off by the investigator. Yeah, yeah. And we just need to know like, as you know, we've got to make sure that like, hey, what do you remember? What can you tell us? It's voluntary, but. Alright, so these I'm going to give you the count slips from August 9th up until midnight of August 10th. And is it your understanding that ZA on the count slip that stands for the shoe? Yeah. All right, can you just kind of look through those? I'm going to move this aside for you so the papers don't get kind of mixed up. Actually, I'm just going to give them back to you. Hands them to somebody else. Answer. So I look for what? Question. So when we initial these things, it's just to say that we showed you. Answer. Okay, Question. It's not to say that you're certifying anything or that you received anything. It's a document we place in you. This is what we do for everybody. We ask them to initial and date this. And it's just that today while we're talking to you, this is in fact the document that we're talking about. Answer. Okay, Question. And it's not certifying its accuracy. It's not saying you saw it before today. It's simply to Say that's the document that we're discussing right now. Answer and I'm looking for this for he gets cut off. Question So I look at the ZAs starting so what is this one that I gave you? Answer so this is 9th at 5:02 question so 5:00am answer 5:00am question okay, so I gave you the 5:00am count on the 9th. Can you just take a look at the numbers? You can look at that. Is that, that's this first page called. Is that E1 answer yeah. Question alright, so look at the E1 and then look at the count slip for ZA. So when you're looking at E1 just make note of what is the number that says on the E1 and then go back to probably the last page, maybe the second to last page for each and look at the ZA number to make sure that it matches with what eone shows. And I just want you to do that for this one. He gets cut off by the lieutenant. He. You said the E1 and what? Question the E1 and the count slip for Za. The count slips are in the back. Should be either the last or the second to last page where it's five in the morning. That's five in the morning on the ninth. So what do those numbers show? Answer in ZA yeah, answer so 77 question does it say both of them? 77 answer on the E1. Yeah. Question alright, cool. Now can you initial and date that and move it aside again? These aren't I gotcha moments. These just help us explain some stuff. Alright, so this E1, well, can you tell me what it says for the ZA on this one? And this is what the 5:00pm Count. What is this? Answer yeah, 4:00pm Question 4:00pm I mean answer it's 4:00pm Count, but yeah. So that ZA is 75 question 75 and the last one was what does that say? Answer 75. Question all right, 75. Cool. Can you just initial that and put that on the side and you'll understand the question after you look at these. And again, it's not a gotcha, it's to help us explain something. All right, answer what y' all trying to explain though. Question the count changes and I'm going to ask you how you can if there's a way for you to be able to figure out how this count changed. All right, you can look at the E1 here and compare it to the count slip back there. What is this the 10pm count on August 9th. Answer yeah, 73. Question 73 on both. And is there a count? What does the count slip? Say something weird on that one? Answer no, I'm just looking at seven. Question does it say like 73 plus one on there? Answer oh yeah, it does. Question have you ever seen a plus one on any before or could you understand a reason why someone will put plus one? Answer plus one? No, I don't know about a plus one. All right, folks, we're gonna wrap up right here and in the next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up where we left off. All the information that goes with this episode can be found in in the description box. Hey everybody.

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