← The Everyday Millionaire and Mindset Matters Podcast
The Everyday Millionaire and Mindset Matters Podcast
Episode #246 – David Gerber on Radical Aliveness and Mental Performance
01:19:53
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Foreign.
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Welcome to the Everyday Millionaire podcast. My name is Patrick Francie and I am your host. And I want to begin by saying thank you for listening. On this show, I am having conversations with seemingly ordinary individuals who have achieved some amazing and extraordinary results in both their life and business. My intention is to inspire and help you learn and grow by having my guests share their journey of how they face and overcome their challenges, but also how they celebrate their their many wins. And now let's get on with this show and have a conversation with today's guest. So what if the danger that you've been avoiding is actually the doorway to the life you've been asking for? Whatever that danger might be for you? We know it's not reckless danger or manufactured drama, but the kind of inner danger that we all recognize. The conversations you're avoiding, the decisions you keep delaying, the identity you've outgrown but keep because change feels far too risky. You know, at some point, every high performer faces a moment where the old ways of doing things and being stops working. The habits that got you here start to grow old. The success that once energized you begins to feel like an energy drain and the life you built starts feeling like there must be more here year, but not from who you've been. That is where today's conversation begins. My guest is David Gerber, a mental performance coach, TEDx speaker, partner at Novus Global, and one of the most unique people I've had the opportunity to speak with. Now David works with professional athletes. He works with CEOs and high performing leaders who are ready to move beyond autopilot and into a deeper level of clarity, of courage and what he calls radical aliveness. But what makes David's work so fascinating is not just that he coaches elite performers, it's that he is also a certified, get this, lion tracker. He spent weeks on foot in the African bush tracking lions in real danger. Learning, presence, instinct, awareness. All of it comes together to stay grounded when every part of his body body want to run. And that's not just a wilderness story. It's a life story. Because most of us are tracking something as well. We're tracking meaning or purpose. We're tracking the next version of ourselves and we're tracking the life we sense as possible, even when we don't yet have the courage or the clarity to step into it. David's upcoming book, the lion is you explores exactly that, how to follow the clues of your next chapter and become the leader your life is asking you to become. This conversation is about Fear, identity, performance, courage. And the uncomfortable truth that sometimes the things we're most afraid to face is not outside of us. It is, in fact, within us. Without any further delays. David Gerber, let's get this show started. Welcome, David Gerber. Welcome to the Everyday Millionaire podcast. Thank you so much for joining me.
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Thank you, man. It's great to be here.
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So, David, I open always with the same fundamental question, you know, and context. So the bios are bios, but they're never quite up to date or up to speed. And generally my guests are just people who are getting stuff done. So I open with the question is, if somebody walks up to you today and says, so, David, what do you do? How do you answer?
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That's a great question. I, I oftentimes will. I. I like to lead with this idea that I get. Love to get people out into the wild on foot with, with lions in Africa, because normally that, you know, I do. I'm an executive coach. I work with professional athletes. I work with CEOs, executive teams, whatever it is. And I, I find obviously there's a lot of executive coaches out there, a lot of general coaches. And so I find people are kind of like, oh, cool, another coach. And so when I start talking about the lions, people are, seem to be way more intrigued. And I can weave all kinds of stuff that I do in coaching with what I do with lions out in Africa. And so I like to lead with that. I put on my LinkedIn bio that I'm an explorer of the wilderness and human potential. And so I like to weave all those things together.
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Let's go there. I mean, you're based in Colorado in Denver is what you said. And that's a long ways from Africa. So how does. There's no lions there, so. Or at least in, in Denver. So how did the whole lion thing come to be?
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Yeah, so the, the lion thing came to be. So if I, if I go back, it's interesting. I, I'd been on some vehicle safaris and I knew that I loved them and. But there was something I always felt like. It's like I want to be. I want to feel closer to the, the energy of the animals, if you will. I don't know. And I couldn't really explain it. It wasn't like a rational thing, but you see them from the vehicle. You actually, most times when you're in a vehicle, you can actually get much closer to the animals than you can on foot. And so you get, you actually get better photographs, better viewing, oftentimes from the vehicle. But there was always this sense I wanted to be closer to them. And so I would ask around when we, I'd be out on a vehicle safari, I'd ask around that, ask guides and you know, hey, can you go on foot? But I also had this perception that if you go on foot with lions or, you know, the other animals, there's leopards, cheetah out there, there's rhino, buffalo, elephants, you know, I had this perception if you go out on foot, you just, you're just gonna die. Like you're gonna get eaten or something's gonna happen to you and, you know, Makes sense. Yeah. And so what, as I would ask, you know, the guides would be kind of interesting. They're like, well, yeah, you can go, sometimes you can go on what's called the bushwalk, which you do for like, it's like a 90 minute thing one morning when you're on safari. And so I was like, okay, you know, cool. But that usually you're just looking for birds or you're looking at vegetation or whatever. It's not really anything. You're not really looking for lions and certainly not, you know, these kind of predators. So I was like, okay, that doesn't really sound that much fun to me. And then eventually, as I asked enough questions, I found out there is this very niche thing you can do, which is to, you can actually go tracking lions. Because at any game reserve that they have in Africa, they have to have trackers that go and find the animals. Because when you, when you're in a vehicle safari, even if you find the animals, usually it's because trackers got up an hour or two before everybody, they went out, found the animals, and then they radioed the camp and say, okay, here's where the lion activity is. Come to this area. You don't just necessarily stumble upon them. There's a lot of like, things happening there.
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Pretty. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah.
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Yeah. So like, because it's, you know, it's, it's not a zoo, it's not a safari park. It's, it is like the wild. And the, the blocks of land that will track on in South Africa oftentimes are 8 by 8, 9 by 9 miles. So it's a very large plot of land and there's, there's no guarantee there's actually lions there when we go out. And so there's usually four or five of those kind of blocks we can, you know, so if you kind of put it all together, it's 4 or 500 square miles of, of Area.
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Yeah, so.
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So. So it's. It's truly the wild. So anyway, so I asked enough questions, found out this. This thing exists, and. And then I ended up booking a trip and I had really no idea what I was getting into. And in my book, I get into all this because, like, a bit of the origin of. There's a big shift that happened in my life five, six years ago where I went through a really heartbreaking divorce and spent, you know, the last five or six years, you know, essentially kind of rediscovering who I was and finding myself and all that kind of stuff. And part of that, a lot of it had to do with being over there on foot with lions because you're out usually really, really quiet setting. You're just. Because you're. You're tracking lions, you're trying to be quiet and find them because they can hear really well and could smell really well and all that kind of thing. And so I went out chucking the lions and had such a great experience just being out there on foot with them in their. In their world. So I stopped there for now, but I'm sure there's more things we can dive into deeper.
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So what took you to Africa originally where you kind of discovered the thought process or saw the opportunity? Was it just a vacation kind of thing? You said, let's go to Africa. Let's do a safari. You got there, you had a great experience, and you went, I need to do more of this. Is that kind of the context for it?
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Yeah, that was a bit of it. And, you know, and people do ask, and often ask me, you know, oftentimes the first question after I mentioned this is people go, how. How did you get into this? Right? Like, how did you end up on foot with lions? And even. Even with the safari vehicle, safaris, a lot of that was just. It was always something that was exciting to me about it, this idea. And I. It was funny at first. I was like, I don't know, you know, where did I get this idea that it'd be cool to see lions in the wild? And really, it. It traces back. And I tell this story at length in the. In the book because I. When I sat with it for a minute, I. I had this memory from when I was 15 years old. So when I was 15 years old, my family, my dad was military, and so we moved around every two to three years. And I remember when I was 15, we moved, and it was a really difficult move for me. It was at a time in my life where I Didn't have a lot of self confidence. I remember at one point when I went to this new school, I went for two months walking around the school and I literally didn't look at or say hi to anybody. I remember I would like, I would like look down and I'd look up just to make sure I wasn't running into somebody. I look back down and I just was like, I didn't know how to make friends or doctor girls or whatever it was, you know, I was just figuring my way out. So I was at a really pivotal point in my life, I think, where I was really first of all discovering who I was. And I had this moment in. So, so my parents took, took our family to the zoo, I think, to try to cheer us up. And it was one of those like super, super hot Midwestern days where I feel like it was like 95 or 100 degrees and humid is all, all heck. And so your, your clothes are sticking to your body in all the wrong places. And, and we're going around the zoo and I'm grumpy and like, I'm like, nothing's going to cheer me up. And, and all I remember is coming around this corner and, and seeing this lion in this enclosure. And it was interesting because even though it was one of like the saddest lions in the world, and it's like pacing back and forth, it's got like a bald spot on its back where it's like rubbed up against this cage that it obviously doesn't belong in. Yeah, I can see. But, but even still, even with it being one of the saddest lions, there was some sort of weird thing happening in me that I couldn't, I couldn't put words to. I didn't even know it was going on. I was 15 years old. I was trying to figure my life out. But I remember seeing this, like. I mean this, this head is just massive. I mean, it's like this huge head. And I'm. I'm looking at this thing and I'm like, you know, I'd seen, you know, this is before the Internet, essentially, you know, and so I'd seen pictures of lions and encyclopedias at the school library, but certainly nothing like this. Right. It was almost like a mythological figure. And so I just had this moment with this lion where I, you know, I realized a lot of things and it took a little while to really realize everything that happened there. But it was, you know, 25 years later when I found myself on foot with lions. I came back to that story. And I was like, oh, I think that was the origin part, because something happened inside of my body that I couldn't put words to. But. But. But it was like, it was. It was visceral. And so then when I was out on foot with lions and I felt that same experience of like, oh, wow, maybe this is the experience in my body I've been looking for my whole life. And it started to bring me back to this, like, wild version of who I could be or who I was and wanted to become.
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So it's interesting that we have these fork in the road moments. Right. And I sometimes wonder, as you're speaking, I'm thinking about, have I ever had that experience where you have that, like, you say that visceral sense or feeling in your body, and I can't say as I have, but I can definitely understand and picture what it was for you. So then you go back to. Again, you go back to Africa. I think that what's interesting about that kind of fork in the road moment for you is you actually acted on it. You listened to your body and. Which is. I think some people pass those things by. So, yeah, so you go back and you say, okay, I want to get closer or tighter with nature and with the animals. You go there, you start tracking, you learn that. And before I forget, and I don't want to step over, you mentioned your book. This is a book you've just recently released for this podcast. What was the title of that book again?
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So the title of the book is called the lion is.
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You got it. And so what's the kind of. The context of the book, if you will? Overview. We'll come back to it, but just to give people a sense of.
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Yeah, yeah. So the brief overview of it is. Is that just to give a real brief one, is that we're. We're essentially born, in my opinion, wild and adventurous and. And most times when I say that to people, they're like, oh, yeah, when I was a kid, I would go run through the forest or, you know, I don't know if this is as much as today's world, but, like, when I was a kid, run through the forest, run in the desert. We lived in Phoenix for a while, and I just remember being a kid and just, you know, jumping off of walls and, I don't know, you know, just doing stupid stuff and then, you know, ending up in the ER later or whatever it was, and. And then it'. There's this time in life where we start to, I would say, based on societal conditioning, we become more tame or caged is what I used in the book because it's, I'm using metaphors with the lions. So you think about a lion in the zoo line in the wild, and if you see one in the zoo and you see one in the wild, the, the difference is so ridiculous. It's almost like it's a different animal. And so I, I started to realize like how much I'd become caged. And oftentimes in life we become caged sometime I think in our teenage years where we become hard to have kind of becoming self conscious, you know, we're obviously, we're going through so many changes in life at that time. And then I think. So then the end of the book is all about. So the subtitle of the book is Lessons from the Wild on How to be On Coming Alive Again. And so it's all about how do we rediscover that spirit of like that, that version of us that was so wild and adventurous and wasn't tame, it wasn't caged and it wasn't essentially kind of stripped of all of our adventurous nature. And so that's, that's generally what the book is about.
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Got it. So, so you go on this path, you start tracking lines and you know, specifically we want to shine a light on. You weren't hunting them, you were actually just tracking them to observe and to be out in the wild and to look at their natural habitat, how they operate, etc. So then at some point, where did the connection going, oh, you know, the whole metaphor for being a lion and your inner lion or whatever language that you use, where did that connection start to unfold for you? Was it while you're out there going, you know, some people, this is. I see this in people or I see this in leaders. How was, how did you start to connect those dots?
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Yeah, I think, you know, it's a really great question because. And I know I get into, in the book and I'm looking for like, in even like a bit of that origin. It's, it's, you know, I think when I, when I went through the heartbreaking divorce that I went through, you know, that has those moments in life have this, this way of waking you up. And it was, there was so much involved in that for me. I grew up in a, you know, Christian home where divorce is like a big terrible thing. So there was not only like the fact that I'm going through the heartbreak, I'm also going through this fear that now I'm a divorced person, you know, and that. That always, like, oh, man. Like, what are people going to think of me? Because I know so many assumptions in that world about what it means to be div. So I'm going through all that stuff. And even as I was going through a lot of the therapy and coaching I've gone through in the last five, six years, what I really. I really started to look at, what's the lesson I can really learn from this and how can I grow? Because so many people that I find when they go through a divorce that it. It becomes. I don't. I'm trying to think about how to say it. Like, they hate their ex, and it's like they have to say so many bad things about it, and it's this terrible thing. And I remember I had a conversation with a friend one time, and I kept saying, oh, my failed marriage. And he had said, you know, why do you keep saying that? And I was like, why isn't. That's what it is, right? And he said, well, what if it was just a relationship that was. Lasted for 10 years and then it ended? And I was like, huh, I hadn't thought about that. And so that reframe really helped me, because then it allowed me to see and really learn from everything. And one of the things I really noticed, because I started really learning a lot about, you know, masculine feminine dynamics in the world, if you will. And I realized throughout my marriage, one of the things I would say that I learned from it was like, I wasn't really stepping into. I had almost lost that adventurous spirit of myself. And I think I've become tame, which I think, you know, just, you know, I'm not saying that's the. The reason for the whole thing, but I. I just saw all of that, and I was like, wow. And then when I was. When I was out with the lions on foot, and I still remember the first time I got charged by a lion because that, generally speaking, lions want to get away from humans, and we can get into more of that, but once in a while, a lion will charge at you, and if you. If it charged at you, you have to.
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You.
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The only thing you cannot do is you can't run, because if you run, you're. Now you're. You know, now things get really dicey, you know, because you're not gonna run the line, obviously, because they run 50 miles an hour, so. So you have to stand your ground. If you stand your ground, they'll run at you, and then they'll stop, and then they'll. Turn, you know, they'll like try to intimidate you and then they'll turn around and it's like the most mind blowing thing. And I remember the first time that happened, it like sent the shockwave through my body and, and I, it was like something that resonated so deeply in my body that I was like, oh, like, this is the thing I want to feel in my life. Like, I want to feel this. And whether that's, you know, writing a book or speaking on a stage or coaching someone or, or, you know, going for a walk or meditating, like, I think there's so many ways we can experience this, but when we're not connected to like, what that feeling is in our nervous system or our bodies, because I feel like people are so disconnected. There was just something that resonated so deeply. I was like, this is the feeling I've wanted to feel my whole life that I think that I had as a kid. I got a glimpse of it when I was 15 with that line in the zoo. But then I feel like for 25 years I largely lost that feeling because I got so disconnected. And I was trying to prove myself as a person or as a coach or a business. You know, all these things we try to do that we grasp for that don't actually return that. And I feel like that that was the gift that the lions gave me, was like, this is it. Like, you knew you were never meant to be caged. You were always meant to be wild. But when you, when you choose to leave the cage and go into the wild, you also have to accept everything that comes with the wild. Where, meaning you don't get your three meals a day. You don't get, you know, you gotta fight for your territory, right? I've, I've, you know, and so, so when you go out into the wild now, you got to hunt for your own food. You're not getting your free three meals. And so, so I just thought you to have all of these, like, correlations come together of like, man, I know what it's like to feel caged. I now know what it's like to feel wild, you know, having a line run at me and I'm like, I'll take the wild all day long, right? Like, there's just no way I can go back to a caged life. Because it's just like, there's no way, you know? So I hope that that gets around to the question you asked.
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Well, no, I think, I mean, it gives a lot of context to the whole Thought process. And I think, you know, that point that you make, right, kind of at the end where you said, you know, are we living or. It's an observation. I think a caged life is kind of a cool metaphor, if you will, for being free and being out in the wild and, you know, dealing with all the things at that point, you know, being out in the wild versus being caged in this enclosure where you're probably safer, but you're also very limited and not a lot of creativity in that particular space. There's not a lot of living in that in a cage. So that is an interesting kind of thought process to enter in this conversation. Now let's connect the dot to. I think Novus Global is business, that you're a partner or owner. What's. What's. Where does this fit into the picture?
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So I'm. I'm harder at Novice Global and just to see how it all fits in. So I joined Novice Global about 10 years ago. So I started coaching 15 years ago, coached on my own for five, six years, and then joined Novus Global. And I was one of the original six that started. It was originally started by one guy who just had this dream. Jason Jaggert is amazing. Been a friend of mine for 20 years, and he had this dream of like, hey, could we get coaches together to do this as a collective? Right. And could we all benefit in ways that were incredible and impact the world in ways that are incredible as well? And so what's really fun is as we're recording this, we've just crossed over 100 coaches that are a part of the firm now, which is really, really fun. And it took a bit of a while to get going out of the gate, but now we've got a lot of traction, which has been really fun. And so, yeah, so I've been a part. A part of that for nine or 10 years, and it's one of the best decisions I've ever made is to join the firm. And it comes with. There's a lot of growing pains. There's a lot of things where, you know, you know, I'm not. I'm not just on my own anymore. So there is some things there. But, I mean, I'm telling you, it's the. The. Like I mentioned, it's one of the best decisions I've ever made, and I can't imagine if I had never joined them. But. So it's been really, really great journey so far.
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So what is. Give me a little bit of background on Novus Global. Is it a You said you got, like, there's a hundred coaches within that organization. Are they contractors or are they. They're not on a payroll. I'm assuming they're independent. Yeah.
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So was when we. When we started. Sorry. Yeah, so when we started, it was. It was all 1099 contractor status, but due to some law changes, we couldn't actually continue that way. And so we actually had a moment where we had to decide which way to go, and we needed to pick a different direction. And we actually chose to go with a franchising model. And so now each coach is a. Is its own franchise model, franchise owner. And then so. So we all work very heavily as a collective. We've got structures internally that, that, that are designed because one of the biggest things is, I'm sure you're aware of is, you know, when companies grow, how do you keep the culture? And we have been so intentional on how do we keep the culture? Because the culture we formed where we began, that's evolved a little bit. We. We love the culture and we really wanted to, like, we're dead set on how do we maintain the culture even as we grow. And we're really proud of how we've done that. And we continue to evolve and, and have meetings and, you know, figure out how do we. And so, yeah, I think that. Does that answer the question you asked me?
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Yeah, I think so. I'm curious, is that. So is Novus Global, Is that a source for somebody? So if I'm looking for a coach, am I going to find Novus Global somewhere along the lines. And I'm then looking at the profiles of different coaches going, this might be a fit. Or am I doing an application? I'm just interested in the model and how that works.
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Yes. Yeah. So I generally say that. So the way we approach it is every coach is responsible for their own work, and you likely get work from the firm. But we invite. When we. When people are interested in joining, first of all, they have to go through our training program to. To even be considered to join. So you can't just. We don't just hire people off the, you know, just, you know, whatever, hire them. So when people are considering joining, we say, we want you to consider joining even if you never got. No work ever came from the firm. And most likely you'll get work from the firm. So. So then the way people can find us. So if, let's say if somebody goes to our website and they're like, hey, I'm interested in having a coach, then you'll. You'll you'll meet with one of our, our team and then the goal is to find you a really, a really great fit as a coach based on whatever your goals, industry objective are. Because right now we work with, we work. We have a huge segment that works with professional athletes, professional sports teams. We've got teams that work in entertainment, construction, and then kind of manufacturing. So we have these different divisions now that we're working in different spaces. And that's all just come out of different passion areas for the different coaches have. So some coaches have been really, really passionate about, about getting into the construction space or professional sports space. And then they, they go for that and then that's what they do.
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B
Got it. And so, and, and where do you fit in in terms of your own coaching? You've worked with professional athletes, CEOs. Is. Is that something that you're still kind of in the trenches doing or have you evolved to doing other things?
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Yeah, so I, I primarily work with professional athletes. Right now. I think I've got three or four executives, business owner types, which I, I love the crossover between mental performance, whether you're a professional athlete or, or an executive. So I really enjoy having a split between those clients are right now. And so that's where my current clientele list lives. And I really enjoy the variety that I've got at this point.
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B
Got it. I mean, for me, it's an area of interest. So, you know, I. Yeah. As much as I'm a business owner and been in business over 40 years and all the things that I've done, my wife is also what we refer to as a world and Olympic class mental performance coach. So she just came off her fifth Olympics and actually she works with 14 or 18 teams around the world that she works with.
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A
Amazing. Yeah.
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B
Yeah. So she's in the skating world. She works with dance teams. And so she actually works with the US Silver medalist world champions as well.
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A
Okay. Yeah. Very cool.
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Yeah. Evan and Madison. So the. So there's an area of interest there that I kind of like to unpack what it is, you know, what's your view? And I mean, there's so many different styles of coaching and what we do and.
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Yes, yes.
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B
Your lion tracker. And go. Okay.
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A
Yeah.
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B
How do you bring, how do you fold that kind of thought process into your coaching? How do they connect? So that when you're working with whatever client you're working with.
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A
Yeah.
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B
What's the thought process behind it?
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I love that even the question there. So last year. So I now take, I also take Guests with me out tracking lions. And so if people are interested, I do a couple of trips every year and so people can come and join me. And it's a very unique experience. And so last year, one of my athletes came with and he plays in the NHL. And so I get that you're a hockey fan and obviously being in Canada, you're going to be a hockey fan. It feels like.
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B
One of my businesses, by the way, is called pro skate. So for 43 years. And Stephanie, my wife, was actually a skating coach for The Edmondson Oilers, St. Louis Blues, and any number of professional players. So hockey is what we do.
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A
Well, what's funny is the guy that started our sports division is he was. He was nearly an Olympic speed skater. And so I'm even curious if you like, you may have known him or something like that, because I think he's about 40 now, and I wonder if who knows how small those worlds are. So maybe.
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B
Small world. It's a small.
- [27:24]
A
We can chat afterwards. You probably have heard of him. And so anyway, so now I'm trying to get five more back to the question. I get excited about something and go back to the connect. Yeah, so one of my. One of my players came with last year and we were out in the bush for six days tracking lions. And you know, him and I would just talk on the side or we talk afterwards when we got back. And for him, one of the biggest things is, you know, because in professional sports it's such an intense atmosphere and much similar to tracking lions can. Can be. Can be very. Not intense when you're just out walking, looking, but there's still this anticipation. But when you encounter lions, there can be this intensity, especially if you get charged at. It's a very intense moment. And so what he loved about it was just how. How much he learned how to feel his nervous system and his entire body and, And. And then to learn how to have it get heightened. But how do you then re. Regulate? And so that was one of the things him and I worked a lot on. And obviously with business owners that can be like that too. But usually business isn't quite as intense as, you know, hockey game is like, you know, for two hours and 45 minutes, it's like we're on and then it's like a break for a day or two and then we go back at it. And so, so there was. There was that component of it. The other thing he. It was funny that something he. I didn't expect that he would have loved so much was there's really no, no Internet out there. And so there's a little hot spot at the camp, but it, you know, it's pretty worthless. You can't even hardly get on Instagram. And so you. But certainly when you're in tent, your tent at night, there's no Internet available. And so you actually just. There's no scrolling capacity with athletes that, you know, they're on planes and buses and lots, you know, not lots of. I mean, they do have a lot of free time, but obviously they're, they're recovering all that stuff like that. But their tendency is a lot of these guys, one of their biggest things as they know, is like, they're scrolling a lot. And so for him, he was just like, man, the idea of having, you know, just six days where I wasn't scrolling, he was, it was so refreshing. And he got this glimpse of what it's like to be with your thoughts and be bored and connect to your creative part of your brain and let your mind wander. And so for him, you know, the impact has been tremendous on just how much time he intentionally, like, doesn't pick up his phone and just lets his mind be creative.
- [29:40]
B
Do you find, David is my own experience around men in general. So do you work primarily with men or do you work both men and women?
- [29:51]
A
I would say, you know, it does vary from time to time. Right now, I think it's primarily men, but it's. There's been times for my half. My client list is women and half men. It just kind of just. It varies.
- [30:03]
B
Sure. The reason I bring it up is because it is, it certainly is different. What you just described, you know, is a young NHL player. They're young relative. I'm 68, so everybody's young to me. So that's how that rolls. But they are younger. They're, you know, they're still going through and discovering who they are, aside from being an athlete. But I, I've, I've done different men's groups that I, I like to bring men together, small men's groups and, and programs with them. It's really just a high area of interest for me. So. Yeah, but my observation and what you just said was the, you know, your client experiencing something that he's never experienced, you know, physically in his body and actually having awareness of going, oh, hold it. If I don't have all these distractions and I'm being with myself. Yeah, it's a whole different experience. And I remember with one particular men's group, I once asked the question or, or Asked or made the statement, you know, are you aware of your thoughts? You know, what are. What are you. What are you thinking about? And. And it was just blank stares. It was. Had.
- [31:08]
A
Yeah.
- [31:08]
B
Like that had never occurred to me, you know, to be aware of what you're thinking about. And yeah, it was so foreign to them, yet it's so what I do personally, and I'm not saying what I do is right, but it is an interesting. So you had that experience. Does that open up way different doors of conversation? And then that whole journey of self discovery is that kind of really puts it in place, I'm assuming.
- [31:34]
A
Yeah, very much so. And there is this thing that interesting that happens. And I don't know if it's just with men because I've had women come out tracking with me as well. And sure, people just start to open up and start talking. You know, it's like we get back to this, you know, this almost like this campfire mindset or campfire consciousness, however we want to call it, where people used to sit around the campfire and there was no screens and it was like we would talk to each other and you look across the fire and you'd see somebody and you'd talk to them and you'd tell stories. And that was so. For so long of human history, that's what we did. And people. So when you get them out in the wild and, you know, you have these experiences and encounters with these animals, it, you know, you almost want to talk about, man, what did that, what did that do to you? How'd that feel? You know, and what was that like? And there's just such this primal thing that seems to come to the surface of, oh, I want to. I want to open up. I want to think about my thoughts, I want to talk about them. I want to know what's going on in my inner world and what my experience of life is like right now. And. And so it definitely really seems to just naturally have this capacity to open people up. Yeah.
- [32:35]
B
You know, as you're talking about a. A lion that comes at you, you know, there's. So in my own world of what I've observed over many years is that we go on these journeys of what we would call personal development, and then we maybe step into professional development and then we start. Stephanie and I have a podcast. We're going to change the name. It's. Right now it's been. We call it Mindset Matters.
- [32:58]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:59]
B
You know, but then there's the mindset component of it. But. And We've been doing that for five years. And we. It's just her and I having cool short conversations, 30 minute long conversations. We pick a topic and kind of unpack it and got a good following. And it's kind of fun for us. We enjoy it, but we grew beyond that. So I'm sharing this with you because you're a coach, and I'd like to see and hear your perspective in this context, if I can lay it out properly. So then we go to mindset. And I'm going, you know, some mindset doesn't really land for me. And then I coined a phrase. You've heard of feng shui? Feng shui.
- [33:32]
A
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:33]
B
Okay. Rearrange.
- [33:35]
A
Yeah.
- [33:35]
B
You know, so the energy flows. And I was in audiences when I'm talking to them, I always say, gentlemen, if you've never heard of feng shui, don't worry about it. But I guarantee your house has been feng shui. That's right. That's just how that rolls. Right. But in an accident of a conversation, I coined the phrase mine shui, which.
- [33:54]
A
Yeah, I saw that. Yeah, I saw that.
- [33:55]
B
Thanks. Way for the mind. Right. So that, that was the whole thought process there. But then I went on to saying, okay, but there's something beyond this. And this is where I want to get. And this is what I use the term as we grow into this, because mindsets, having mindset is about how we view the world outside of us, how we, how we process what we're seeing or the environment we're in or whatever it is, but it's outside of us. And then I went, no, for me, where I've evolved to in my own thought process, who I am and in my own coaching style is really about self mastery. It is self mastery, which is an inside job. That's how I point it. So the reason I bring that up is that when you think about self mastery, you've got a charging lion. Okay. You go through that experience and you have to, in a moment, calm yourself to the degree where you're not. You're going against your natural propensity to run.
- [34:52]
A
Yes, yes.
- [34:54]
B
So you have to be really, you know, that's an inside job. That's my thought. But I'd like, you know, is there someplace where you would expand on that thought process, David?
- [35:03]
A
Yeah, yeah. And then tell me if this lines with. With what you're thinking. There is, you know. Yeah. So when, when it. Even as the guides are, you know, preparing you as we're going out, you know, I'M pretty sure that the safety briefing at the Disney at Disneyland was like longer than the safety briefing I got. It literally was like, hey, we're gonna be out there on foot. Listen to the guides. Don't run. And it's like, don't run. You're like, okay, got it, right? So in your brain you're like, okay, so don't, don't run, don't run, don't run. But then you're also visualizing, you know, this again, the male lion with this massive head and mane like, like running at you and like growling, you know.
- [35:43]
B
Yeah.
- [35:43]
A
And, and I'm thinking, don't run. Like, how. Okay. And I'm just like thinking, okay, well they've been doing this. Like, doesn't sound like anybody's gotten eaten yet. So like, let's give this a shot, right? Let's like, at this point in my life, I was like, let's just full send this thing, whatever. Let's go figure this out. And so I still remember it was, we were, you know, we were walking there and, and all of a sudden, you know, we'd seen this lion that it looked like he had a kill that he was essentially guarding. It was funny because we'd seen a bunch of hyenas in the area. And at first I was like nervous about the hyenas. And the guys were like, they're like, they're that. Look at how they like run away from you. They want nothing to do with you. But hyena, like, can be a, you know, if it wanted to be, is a very dangerous animal. Oh yeah, they, they have one of the strongest bites on the planet. Like when you, when you're out walking, if you see like droppings that are white, it's hyena. Because hyenas literally just like eat bones. They just, they just eat bones. Like it's meat, you know. So I see the hyenas and I'm like, you know, they look like aliens, by the way. They're just weird looking animals. And so I remember, you know, asking, it was a guy like, oh, don't worry about them. And so then we're. Keep walking, keep walking. And then we see in this big thicket, I see this animal kind of behind it, but I can't really see clearly. And I'm thinking it's another hyena. And then I see its tail like wag back and forth and I'm like looking at the hyenas, I'm looking at the, looking at this other thing and I go, oh, that's a lot. Like, that's. You know, it's the first time I'd seen this lion, right? So I see this lion. We took a few more steps because we wanted to get us. Because, like, it's almost like every step closer, you feel this energy, right? And kind of with what you're talking about self mastery, it's. So now I'm having this whole conversation in my head about, like. Like, I want to get closer to his energy because it's, like, really powerful and it feels amazing. And I want to get a closer view of this guy, but also, like, every step closer, you know, is he gonna. I don't know what's gonna happen at this point. I have no idea what's gonna happen. And then all of a sudden, you hear this low growl. This, you know, and it's like. It, like, sends shockwaves through your system, like multiple shock waves. So I'm kind of like, okay, usually growling, like, that's, you know, but it's also like, man, this is like, just such a riveting experience. I'm with these guys. I think they know what they're doing. So you're having all these conversations in your head the whole time about what's gonna happen. And all of a sudden, as we're, you know, wanting to get a little bit closer to him, all of a sudden he just bolts through this thicket, and he just, you know, comes through this thing, you know, And I'm just like, kind of like, what is happening right now? Yeah, I know I can't run. And it's weird because you the most people, when I talk to them about going with me, they're like, I could never stand my ground. And I was like, you think that? But what's so fascinating is your brain is almost like. It's like your brain is not stupid. It's like your brain is intelligent enough to, like, have the calculation of, like, if I run, I'm gonna be in a world of hurt pretty quick, and if I stand my ground, I'm gonna be safe. So I still remember, though, thing comes running at us. I end up taking a step back. I take one step back. It's almost like the energy just, like, moved me back. And in this. This guide, I remember just put his hand on my elbow, and he just said, stay. And I just felt this new sensation in my body of like, okay, I got this. And it's almost like the energy. And this is part about, like, community and why I love Novice Global so much, is it's almost like you Know, we need to be around people that. We need to be people that. Who, sorry, let me say two ways. One is I want to be around people who make me more brave. And I also want to be somebody that they become more brave when they're around me. And so I felt this, like, calmness. It's almost like the calmness from the guide transferred from his body into mine. And then I got to be super ultra present. Rather than panicking, I got like a grounded. I felt calm. And this line runs at us, gives us a great growl, gets like 15 yards from us. Then he just kind of paused at the ground, growls, and then he turns around, runs back to his kill, you know, And I had this moment where when we talk about self mastery, where I stood in the face of something that was, you know, so dangerous, and there's this pride in this courage and this, like, bravery. You're like, wow, like, I really. I didn't think I could do that. And even when I thought back to like, going through my divorce, I remember thinking at one point in my life, I thought, man, if I ever went through a divorce, that would kill me. Like, I. I would never make it. I thought it'd be the worst thing ever. And again, don't get me wrong, it wasn't. It wasn't a walk in the park. But once I remember being on the other side of it, I remember thinking, oh, I just made it through the thing that I thought I couldn't make it through and I didn't die. And you have this moment with yourself where you're like, man, like, I'm pretty resilient. This is pretty incredible. Like, how I made it through that. I made it through a lion charge. I've made it through seven or eight lion charges. And then you start to. You get this emboldeness to you, and it's like, oh, I wonder what things that I've told myself I'm afraid of that I. That I don't need to be afraid of. And that's. That's for me, where the self mastery piece is, like, woven in. And so now I've just like, sometimes I'll just do things that I would have been afraid of before, and I'm just like, it's just not that scary. And. And then if I am scared of something, I had this thought, you know, with the guide grabbing my elbow, I had this thought where I said, you know, for everything that I'm afraid of in the world, there's somebody on the planet who's not afraid of it. And there's kind of this weird thought of like, snakes, lions, you know, whatever. There's somebody on the planet who's not afraid of it. And so if there's something you're afraid of, it's like, find somebody on the planet who's not afraid of it and get around them and have them teach you. And so, you know, so like now, I mean, I'm still, I get it, there's still some healthy fear of lions, but the fear of lions has diminished so greatly because I understand them now. And there's a guy at the camp who's like, that I go to who's like wildly fascinated with snakes. And the guy like picks up like venomous snakes on a regular basis. And I know that it's like, weird. I was like, if I spend enough time with this guy, my fear of snakes could diminish greatly too. And it's so weird to think about these things and whether it's public speaking or, you know, writing a book or whatever it is, it's like get around people that aren't afraid of it and just learn from them. And that's been part of my self mastery journey as well.
- [41:58]
B
Yeah. There's a phrase that I often use which is confidence is rarely owned, it's often borrowed. And we borrow our confidence from those that we're surrounded by if we can or might be a mentor or somebody else. But ultimately these are examples. And it's interesting as I'm putting kind of connecting some dots in my own brain about what you're talking about. We hear these things that whatever we want is just on the other side of that fear that we have to break through or the cave that we're afraid to go into, that's where we have to go into to actually gain what we're looking for. So when you're, you know, if we put some kind of start to put some meat on the bone, you know, around a context, you know, really, you know, and there's another thing is that it's not that you don't fear lions. There's always that kind of fear there. But you've learned to respect that lion. It's, you know, it's like years ago, you know, I became quite good, quite a good swimmer, for example. But my dad used to always say to me, you know, don't fear water. You have to respect water.
- [43:06]
A
Yeah.
- [43:07]
B
And it's like, don't. You don't need to fear the line, but you definitely need to respect it. And whether that's a lion or a snake, or something else. So on the other side of whatever that is, that's generally what's in our way. So as you're working with your clients and you think about the, you know, the adrenaline hit that you get from a line or the fact that you didn't run, or that you experience that moment where, holy cow, I may die. Yeah. You actually come through it and you go, hey, I live through it. So is that the intention there or some aspect of what you're talking about, David? Is this really about. You can face your fears and understand that on the other side, or whatever you want on is. It's on the other side of whatever you're fearing. So in other words, we keep getting in our own way. And one of the ways we get in our own way is we buy into the fear because we tell ourselves a story of what it is, and we never really experience the truth. So we live on this side of it. Is that. Is that kind of translating in your thoughts?
- [44:08]
A
Yeah, translate 100%. And I would say, you know, another. Maybe another way of saying it is that we think we fear the unknown, but we don't actually fear the unknown. What we fear is what our brain puts into the unknown.
- [44:23]
B
The story.
- [44:25]
A
Yeah, the story. Right. So that's basically what you're saying. That's how I heard it. I've heard it said before. And so it's. I don't fear the idea of getting up in public speaking or. Sorry. I don't fear the unknown of it. I. I fear that, like, if I get up and speak and lose, like, forget my words or something like that. Which, funny enough, a year ago, I was working on a key new keynote. And so our company retreat, I decided, okay, I'm just going to tell people over lunch. I'm going to do a practice run of it. And I'm telling you, it went so bad. Like, it was so bad. Like, it was like, there'd been so many times before where I was, like, afraid of forgetting my lines, and I just never did. I always figured it out, and this time it actually happened. I got up there in front of 30 colleagues. They're having lunch. I'm doing this dry run, and I literally, like, my mind just goes blank. I've never had this happen before, you know, and that. And so what's funny is we. We fear that happening. But the most interesting thing happened in that moment. And good thing is I recorded the whole thing, and it's a complete disaster. Right? In a way. But what's so funny is I like, I, like, refused to quit. I was like, I'm gonna get through this thing. So I'd look at my notes, I'd come back, I'd go full ways, I'd forget, you know, And I just worked my way through it. And it's quite an emotional keynote because it talks a lot about my journey, about the book and stuff like that. And my book is very raw and very vulnerable. And so as I'm talking about some of these things, I start getting emotional. At one point, I literally, like, dude, I gotta just, like, I just lose it emotionally because I'm telling. I'm telling a part of my story I'd never told to my company that I really wanted to share. And I. I told it many times to other people, and I thought I'd work through the emotion of it. But the good thing, I did a practice run, and this wasn't like a professional gig, you know, whatever it was. And so the craziest thing was, after I got done with it, I had so much. Again, so much pride, because I was like, man, I. I did the thing I might have been afraid of. I went. I went before I was ready. I took a swing. And then I had so many people come up to me afterwards. One gal came up to me afterwards. She was in tears, and she's like, that's one of the best things I've ever heard in my life. And I was like. I was like, what? I was like, that was like, you know, in terms of, like, public speaking etiquette, it was awful. But what people said to me was. It was like. They said it was like, almost like watching you give birth to something that you've been dreaming about.
- [46:36]
B
Sure.
- [46:36]
A
And so they. They felt so connected to me. And I'm a partner in the firm, and so I think people. There's a lot of people at the company now that, like, look up to me like, I'm this, you know, whatever, not, like, perfect person, but you get the idea. It's like, oh, I've been around, whatever. And. And so they were like, man, it was just. It was just good to see somebody that I look up to as being this, like, seasoned coach, like, totally have basically a meltdown, you know?
- [46:59]
B
Yeah.
- [46:59]
A
And you were. And you were willing to do it in front of all of us. And so, again, and the good thing was I captured on video and I've. I've. I shared about on Instagram because I was like, hey, like this. These things happen, like you said, when you go beyond the thing that you're afraid of that's where so much of the richness of life is. Yeah, we want that thing, but we don't want to go through it. We don't want to go through the divorce. We don't want to go through the meltdown on stage. We don't, you know, and so what's cool is it'll be part of my future story, you know, and the people that were in the room will have gotten to witness that keynote being birthed, you know, and so anyway, so, so anyway, I've said that in so many words, but that, that is so true. And, and that's, if I were to use the last metaphor, like cage versus wild. That's what a wild lion does, is you've got to go out in the wild, you've got to fight some other lions sometimes. You've got to hunt for your food. You've got like, it's. It's a, it's a wild world out there. And if you really want that adventurous life, that's the, that's the table stakes.
- [47:55]
B
You know, you, you mentioned something. So I've had that. I've had an experience. I've had that experience on stage where I got emotional over a topic that I hit, and all of a sudden the emotions sneaks up on you. You know, you're kind stage, but I've had the experience where you're kind of embarrassed by it all. But then people have approached me afterwards and they just go, I just so appreciate the authenticity and the vulnerability that you displayed that gives them confidence in doing what they want to do.
- [48:24]
A
But there's.
- [48:25]
B
Yeah, there's. It's interesting thought process that when we think about this, and this goes back to even the comments you made about your divorce and what you felt as you kind of felt like the failure or whatever that might be. And, and as I'm sure you've had these, you know, people, your clients that have said one of their greatest fears is failure.
- [48:46]
A
Yeah.
- [48:47]
B
And you know, my experience over years of working with a ton of small business owners, like thousands of them, and with that statement comes up, I connect the dot and I. And I want to, I want to try it on for size with you, given your experience. And that is, we don't fear failure. We actually fear the judgment of the people who are observing us, our friends, our peers, that what they're going to think of us, that's the real fear. Less about the failure, although it might be money, and we always think in catastrophic terms, you're going to lose everything if this. But Ultimately, even when you think about when you were talking about your divorce, there's an aspect of it that you shared which was, oh, gosh, you know, it's such the wrong thing. Divorce is, you know, so coveted. And it's, you know, but it's really the thought process of what's. Friends, family, they're going to judge you. You know, you failed in the marriage and all the stories we tell ourselves. And then when you get through it, you come out the other side, and there's probably, you know, there's parts of it that you mourn the loss of that relationship, but they come out the other side of it and you go, hey, this is kind of cool. This is like me being able to kind of go into what's next. So my point, because it's less about the fear of failure. It's more about the fear of what people are going to think about us if we don't achieve whatever it is that we've set out to do. What's your thoughts on that conversation? Yeah, by the way, I've had. No, I don't agree.
- [50:17]
A
No, it's interesting, because my thought is, I think as humans, I agree with what you're saying, and I want to add to it is I actually think we love failure. And I think the reason is because we. We love growth. And I think intrinsically, we know that growth only comes from failure. Like, not only, but, like, largely, like, growth comes when you're willing to just go before you're ready, ship the thing, do the thing, write the book, whatever it is, and put yourself out there. And I. I had this moment. I was talking with a therapist maybe a couple years ago, and I said, you know, I was saying to her, I want to know if I'm going to get married and have kids. One of my biggest dreams in life is I want to get married, have kids. And I said to her, I was like, I just want to know. All I want to do is I just want to know if that's going to happen. I want that certainty, you know? And she go. And she said to me, and she knows me so well, she goes, is that why you track wild lions? Because you like guarantees? Because the reality is, she's like, you pay. He can go down the zoo. You can pay 20 bucks to go down to the zoo, and you guarantee to see a lion. And she said, but you, you. You apparently, you don't like guarantees. You don't like certainty because you fly 10,000 miles to south Africa to go lock for lions on 500 square miles where you don't know where there are, and there's no guarantee you're going to find them. And even if you do, if you're, you know, like. Because otherwise we'll track for four or five hours, we'll see the lions and we'll get a minute with them, and then they're gone. Like, it's like, crazy, right? And so she and I, it just this big thing hit me at that moment. I was like, man, I love certainty. I love failure. And it was such a different thing. This is the thing we're on, societal conditioning that I mentioned earlier about in the book I talk about is like, we get so conditioned to think that it's like society tries to teach us that we don't like failure, that we don't like uncertainty, when in reality, I'm not. I mean, I want to know where I'm sleep tonight, right? It's like. But like. But generally speaking is. I think we're built to love uncertainty, to love failure. And when we really lean in and embrace that, the whole world opens up to us. And that's the difference between the cage and the wild. Is in the wild, there's a lot of uncertainty, a lot of failure in a cage. You know, you get your three meals a day, you're protected from the outside, you don't have to hunt for your food, things like that. But then there's something that when we're in the cage, there's some sort of rumbling telling us we don't belong here. And then we get to decide if we're going to listen to that or keep numbing it with all the ways that we numb it in society. And meanwhile, I have this visual with it where I'm like. As I was writing the book, I realized. I looked at. I looked at the door to the cage, and it kind of hit me that I hadn't even looked over towards the door for so long. And when I looked over towards the door, I realized the door was open. So here I was in this cage that I had built. And I blame society for building the cage for me, when actually I had built it myself. And then I, like, I just didn't look at the door ever, because I didn't want to look at the door because I just wanted to assume it was locked and, you know, no keys. And I look over and go, oh, my gosh, the door's open. I've always had the opportunity just to walk out. But I got two. I got too cozy with my three meals a day and you know, not having to hunt for my food.
- [53:30]
B
You know, it's such an interesting thought process, isn't it? When we think about not everybody's wired to test their limits, so we don't know our limits until we fail, you know, and that's just the ultimately part of the psychology of it, if you will, I think, is part of it. And some people just are not prepared to do that. They cannot bust through that thought process of testing the limits. I think it's Jimmy Carr. He's a great comedian, a Brit, and. But he's pretty profound. And he's not even a comedian comedian. I think he's a lobbyist or political, but he's pretty funny. But he's pretty profound in his thought processes. Right, right. And he said very clearly, you know, we want the car, we want the house, we want all the nice things. If somebody gives that to you, it's like kicking to the curb a month later because there's nothing in it. There's no reward. That's a reward for hard work. That's a reward for testing your limits. That's the reward for taking a good idea and bringing it to fruition. Are the bells, the money, all the rest of it handed to you? You know, it's like, okay, you know, it's another car. It's another. Like, there's nothing there. And it's an interesting thought process around that. And I don't disagree. I often use that growth comes from testing our limits. We go to the gym, we have to work out, we have to lift heavier weights to get stronger, which means testing our limits. And sometimes we're not going to be able to lift that weight, and then we're going to have to come back, work at it. So there's all sorts of metaphors that kind of go with the thought process. So when you're working with your clients, do you see a pattern? Is it consistently you're going in, going, okay, where I got to enter this conversation is I'm going to find out where they are, what's in their way. Because, you know, like, is that where you're going in and helping them see for themselves? Where they're like, I'm. I'm. I don't know how to frame the question. So I'll put it out there for now. Maybe you can kind of read my mind around it.
- [55:25]
A
Yeah. One of. One of the first questions, whenever I'm talking with somebody about working together or even once we start working together, I come back to this question so many times, it's One of my favorites. And it's just simple. It's, it's. What is it you want that you don't currently have? Or else add the word deeply. What is it you deeply want that you don't currently have in your life? And, and I'll just. And people like, oh, I want this. I want this. You know, whatever it is. And, and then I'll just get into the simple part of it's just like, what's blocking that? Right. And. And nine times out of ten people, their first answers to what's blocking them is something external. And pretty quickly I'll guide them into, okay, let's pretend it's nothing external blocking it. It's something internal that's blocking it.
- [56:06]
B
Yeah.
- [56:06]
A
And that's where the real juice usually comes from, is how are you, you know, like you said, how are you getting in your own way? Which is such a common phrase it feels like these days that I think gets thrown around, but I don't think people actually really connect to it. And so it's based on this idea that it's. What if we're the only thing in our own way, you know, and we think that, we think that society or people have built the cage around us and thrown us in there, when actually we built the cage ourselves by the way, by the perspective we have of life. And then we build the cage so beautifully that it doesn't even look like a cage anymore. Right. And so we, we. And then we, we, we hide the door or whatever it is. And the whole time the door, the cage has been open. And so I love. That's when I get into that with people within usually 10, 15 minutes, I can usually find some pretty deep stuff for them, which I just absolutely, absolutely love. And then that's when we get to start doing the deeper work together.
- [57:00]
B
I mean, as humans, I don't know if you agree with this, but as humans, we seek comfort. It seems that way. You know, that's the generalization, is we seek comfort, we want it to be easier. And then we're programmed because we're seeing those moments in time that somebody snaps a picture and we're comparing ourselves to those moments and saying, oh, gosh, there's that Ferrari or that nice house or that beautiful girl vacation. And so that side of it all looks easy. And then. So how is it for you? Because then, you know, I'll observe somebody like you or I'll meet somebody like yourself where you're not striving to be comfortable or are you? And you're Being aware of it going, no, I want more than this. Like, what's your psychology around it?
- [57:50]
A
Yeah. So, so one of the, when we do our two two day trainings with companies, one of their. One of my favorite parts we talk about is just human motivation and, and like similar. What you say is so much of humans are. Their natural propensity is driven by comfort. So our CEO used to teach a class at Pepperdine university down in SoCal and he would. Pepperdine's like a private school. I think nowadays it's probably like $300,000 for a four year degree in room and board. It's like, it's not cheap. Right. So needless to say, the kids that are going there are not, they're not poor. Right. They're pretty well to do. And so he would ask this question on the first day of class. It was like the freshman, incoming freshman, he'd say, okay, how much money do you want to make in your life? And he was so blown away by these kids who probably came from homes that were again, very well to do. And they would commonly say this phrase, just enough to be comfortable. And that was such. The wiring. And so we talk about how do we shift. Honestly, comfort's fine, right? When you get into your bed at night, I'm guessing you want to be comfortable. We're not sleeping on a bunch of rocks, right? And so comfort's not the enemy. It's just, just we don't want it to be the primary driver. We want it to be like the fourth or fifth driver and we want to replace the primary driver with growth challenge, things like that. And so, so again, it's not that it's, it's a, it's a bad thing. It's just how much of my life is being driven by comfort? How much is being driven by some sort of growth? And so that's why, you know, with me with the lions, it's like it is consistently a way for me to grow because not only am I. We're looking for the lines and someone's getting charged and it's like lots of. We're out in the wild. It's. I'm also learning to be a tracker. So actually, you know, funny enough, what I went two years ago, I went and I took a 30 day sabbatical and I went because I wanted to, I wanted to become like a certified tracker. Does they have these different levels? And so I worked with one of the best trackers in the world and I actually got my like level one tracking certification, which was so fun. I mean, really means nothing. But for me it was fun. But learning how to track. So, so there is. You can go tracking where basically the tracker just does all the work for you and you get to just walk behind them, which sometimes it's fun to do too. Get to look around and look for things too. But then he'll have me lead track and it's a, it's really, It's a growth process. It's really challenging because you f. You have the track and you're in really good conditions where it's a lot of dirt. So it's like, you see the big paw prints and it's like, this is easy. Then you go over some grass areas or whatever and you're like, lost the track. So now you got to like, learn new modalities of like, okay, how do we refine the track? And so, and we talk about this in tracking. It's like sometimes losing the track is part of, of finding the track, you know, and then like all these fun life parallels and things like that. So, so many good, good things come from it. But I, I think the shift for people to be, you know, that are listening, it's like if you were to give a percentage if, let's say there's two options, growth or comfort. What percentage of your life is driven by comfort versus growth? And oftentimes I think that will also correlate with like, how much fulfillment and satisfaction you have in life. The higher that percentage that's driven by growth, typically the more excited you are in life, the more thrilled you are, and the more you're driven by comfort, the more typically apathetic people experience life to be.
- [60:56]
B
So I want to pivot a little bit as we start to wind down. We've been at this for a while and love these conversations. In this particular conversation, in this discussion that we're having, given your background in business and all the rest of it, what hasn't come up is money, which is fine. I don't have. I'm not attached to it. But yeah, question what, what shows up for me is a question which is where does money fit into this? Now, I know that you're a business owner and your business is doing well all the rest of it. But that, yeah, doesn't. That's not a, that's not a main driver for you is what I, what I get. But I don't know is, is it seems like your values, Money's somewhere in your higher values, but it's not a primary thing. You don't wake up going, how am I going to make money? You wake up thinking, you know, how am I going to push myself? Having a new experience, you know, do something, you know, be a contribution.
- [61:48]
A
Yeah.
- [61:48]
B
Where does that all fit for you?
- [61:50]
A
Yeah, that's a great question. I. I think when I play with this in my mind a lot, because I, I grew up, you know, I would say I grew up when I was really young. I'd say we were fairly poor and then maybe more middle class when I was in high school, time frame, whatever it was. And so. But I definitely picked up some of the stuff around limiting beliefs around money. I've worked a lot, read a ton of books about it, got coached, therapy, all the fun things about it. And I also realized in that whole process that it's, you know, people think that they want money, but they don't actually want money. Because if I said to somebody, hey, I'll give you a bag full of $10,000 cash. But the caveat is, I'm sorry, $10 million cash. The caveat is, you have to sit in a jail cell with your money. It's like, well, nobody's taking that. And I saw a really interesting video on Instagram the other day that just said, hey, if I gave you $10 million with the caveat that you don't get to wake up tomorrow, would you take it? And the guy said, well, no. And he said, okay, so what you're telling me is that waking up tomorrow is worth More than $10 million? And I was like, man, that's, that's, that's like, that's good, you know, like, that's really simply profound, you know, and so, so I think as I've played it out, I really drive more towards what is it I want the money for and why do I want the money? And whatever it is and with clients, I work on this all the time is like, what's the point of it? And what are you willing to trade for it? And I would say, for me, I'm driven so much by impact. I do a lot of volunteer things. And it's like, before COVID when I lived in California, I would go once a month and I would spend a full day in a max security prison working with people on this, doing this kind of work. And it was, I made no money on it. It was so fulfilling. And it was like, I traded a full day for it, where I'd wake up at like, I think it was like five or six in the morning. I'd drive three or four hours to a Max security prison in the middle of California and then be there all day and then come home. And that was some of the most fulfilling work that I did and some of the work I've done. You know, me and my CEO, we've went over to Cambodia and Thailand, and we've work with nonprofits over there. And like, most, like, when we've went, a lot of times we've. We, like. We pay. Like, we. We. It's money out of pocket for us. Um, and I just didn't care because it was so fulfilling. And so what I've. What I've found is that when I. When I go after the stuff that I'm passionate about, I did. This is the kind of thing that's kind of common in the. In the world, but it's like the money seems to find me, that I need for it. And. And I find that what we're really. I really think this. And this is a bit of my word in the book I use a lot is this word of aliveness is. I. I really think that what we're seeking is aliveness. And it's a bit of what Joseph Campbell talked about in a lot of his work with the Hero's Journey is we're seeking the feeling of being alive. And so for me, I'm not. I'm just not willing to trade that feeling for money. Like, if. If the money, you know, I just trust that the more alive I am, the more the money will. The more the money will find me. And so when I'm working with clients and when I think about checking lions or I'm coaching them, what I'm really listening for, whenever I'm across a zoom screen from somebody or, you know, a table or whatever it is, is I'm. I'm really, like, listening to their sense of aliveness. Like, and are they alive? And. And I want them to be connected to that as well, because I think, again, societal conditioning does play a factor. And we get so conditioned to just money or, you know, car or a house or whatever it is, and we're not. We're not. We're not connected to, like, oh, I could have all that stuff, but I could be completely dead. You know, And I'm sure you've seen. And certainly you've seen this in your lifetime. People have the cars and the houses and the. And the, you know, whatever. The private jet or whatever even, you know, and it's like. And they're. And they're just. They're not happy. And you're like, man, what Is this all for, you know, and so I think. And Jim Carrey. Jim Carrey has that famous, you know, video where he talks about that, where it's like, I wish everybody could become famous for a bit so they could see that that doesn't satisfy either. And so I think, if. So my thing is. Yeah, how do we. How do we find that aliveness now and then live it out and then trust that we'll find our way? Like, we're, you know, we're tracking lions. It's just one track at a time, and you never know where the lines are going to go. You never. Or where they're going. You never know what they're going to be up to. And that's. It's. But it's the beauty of, like, just, what's the next track? What's the next track? And then you, like, you see a track, you look up, you scan the area, you look down again, you find a track, you know, and just this full, like, anticipation of excitement and aliveness that comes through. It's.
- [66:18]
B
Well, yeah, that's such. I love that thought process that what you make is, as you said, that I'm thinking about young children who are alive, they're having fun. It's all an adventure. You know, it's all new to them. You know, they haven't done this. They're too young, they haven't experienced all this. And it's all. They're very alive. We get into maybe a routine. We get into that comfort. We get into our cage. And yes, you kind of pace around the cage, and pretty soon there's. It just crushes life. It crushes the excitement of life. It was interesting to note, and I don't know where I'm going with this, but this past weekend we were at an event. There was about 600 business owners, real estate investors, and I facilitated a panel of some very successful individuals. But as I was observing the crowd and they were taking questions from the crowd, what I realized is the crowd was putting everybody on the stage on a pedestal. Yeah, I could see it. I could hear it in the questions. And I shared a story, and I share this with you because it really. I see it in you or I'm hearing it in what you're saying. And that was. I rarely ask my guests on this podcast. So I've been doing this podcast for 10 years. I've interviewed hundreds of guests, really cool people, very successful, but I rarely ask them how they define success. I actually quit asking the question because it would catch many people off guard. And they didn't really have a definition. And one particular guest and I don't remember who it was, doesn't matter so much. Although I'd love to give him credit. I asked him that question and he was really clear. He says, when I wake up in the morning, I like to open my eyes, take a breath, reclose my eyes. And then I ask myself, am I living the vision for my life? And if the answer is yes, then I'm successful.
- [68:11]
A
Yeah.
- [68:12]
B
And I realized in that question, as I was watching this crowd and I shared that story is that they were observing others thinking that putting that vision in their life and a realization in that moment was that now what's your vision? What is the vision for your life so that you can lean into it, own it, celebrate it as you achieve the goals that you achieve and are you living the vision for your life? So as you're speaking money's. Although always in the background, you're living the vision for your life, which is to have those experiences, to feel alive, to have an impact in others life, to be a contribution. All of the things that you've kind of hit on as we've talked through in this particular podcast, does that resonate with you in terms of that thought process? Is then many of your clients. And I know in my own experience, even for myself, I sometimes have to go, where did. What is my vision for my life these days? Where is it gone? And as I've gone through these phases of my life again, you know, at this age, and I'm looking and I'm, I'm kind of, what is my vision for this next phase of aging? As my body gets a little sore?
- [69:23]
A
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [69:24]
B
And all the shit that goes on. Right. Yeah. And you know, and now my vision really kind of includes my daughter and her husband and my grandkids, you know.
- [69:33]
A
Yeah.
- [69:34]
B
Connecting all those dots is a little bit different. So how does. What's your thoughts on your. Maybe you do have a definition for your success.
- [69:43]
A
Yeah. You know, I always like, if it's okay. I always like to tell a story in terms of like, rather than just give an answer per se. And it was interesting. I mean obviously, like I could tell so many line stories around like that is success for me. You know, it's like that feeling, that experience and, and, and tell me if this aligns or lands. But I remember, you know, I was walking with a Denver, the friend of mine, and he said, you know, we're talking about the stuff of faith. Right. And he's like, what's, what's God like these days for you? What's Jesus like? Because I grew up in a Christian home and, and my faith has, you know, evolved a lot since I was a kid. And, and I'm really proud of like how I've like engaged it and just like, like, you know, stepped away at times and come back and you know, like really explored it and that kind of thing. And, and I, I had this and I told them three stories and I don't, I, I wrote them down somewhere because I didn't want to lose it because I was like, I like this answer versus just like, oh well, like giving the right answer to it. Right? And so I remember saying like, you know, that when I was, when I was a young kid, my brother and I, we, for whatever reason, we had a grapefruit tree in our, in our yard in Phoenix and we got this idea one time where we like one time, I remember I threw a grapefruit onto the road and then a car drove past it and it would, when it would, drove over, it would make this funny noise. Whack, whack, you know, like both wheels would hit it and, and then we just laugh. Like, I don't know why it was so funny, but when you're a five year old kid and you don't have a screen in front of you, like, this is, this is like, you know, better than Instagram, right? And so, I mean, we would do this all day and we would laugh and then my parents would come home from work, work and there'd be like a 30 or 40 foot stretch of the road next to our, our house that would be covered in grapefruits, right?
- [71:25]
B
You wasn't me who threw.
- [71:27]
A
Yeah, it's like, it's like, but it's like so obvious, right? It's like, it's, it's like, you know. Yeah, you get the idea, right? And so like it's scolded and, and, and usually spanked because that was discipline at the time. And, and I, but then the next day again, we just do it again. And it was always like, well this I guess, like, I guess the thrill of doing this is better than getting spanked or whatever. And I just remember, so I said, you know, I think Jesus would have done it with us, right? I don't think he would have scolded us. I don't think God is always mad at us all the time. And don't throw the grave. I'm like, I think I, I like the idea of a God that would have been like, looking at us and like, man, this is funny as hell. Like, let's go, like, let's go get some more grapefruits and do it again, you know, and like, laugh about it. Like, yeah, we're gonna get in trouble later, but like, whatever, you know, and, and so I, I mean, hopefully it gets around to, like, what is success to me is like living a life like that where, you know, we're getting in a little trouble sometimes, we're going to fail, we're going to make mistakes and like. But I love the idea of the guy waking up, opens his eyes, closes eyes, takes a breath. Am I living my vision? You know, and my vision is to, like, to live this adventurous life. And, you know, we've got however much time we've got here and I want to soak it up for all it's worth. And whether that's tracking lions or going for a walk around the neighborhood, like, I want to just take it all in. And I think that that's, that's, that's where it aligns for me for sure.
- [72:46]
B
I love it. I love it. What a great what, What a great story and a great conversation. We start to wind down and.
- [72:54]
A
Yeah.
- [72:55]
B
Appreciate the time that you've spent. Yeah, I was. I kind of go into rapid fire questions that are not so rapid often.
- [73:02]
A
That's okay.
- [73:02]
B
Yeah, we're not in a hurry, but are you ready for some questions?
- [73:06]
A
Yeah, I'm ready for it. Yeah.
- [73:08]
B
Okay. I will start out with the easy one, which is, you know, iPhone or Android.
- [73:12]
A
Oh, definitely iPhone.
- [73:13]
B
IPhone. Well, okay. That's great. Sorry. Do you have a favorite quote?
- [73:19]
A
Oh, man. You know, my, my current one. Have you ever heard of Peter Crone?
- [73:25]
B
Oh, yeah, of course.
- [73:26]
A
Okay, so he has a quote you maybe have heard of it. This, the first one comes to mind and I might have another. But he says that life will present you with people and circumstances to reveal to you where you're not yet free.
- [73:37]
B
Yeah.
- [73:39]
A
Yeah. And then if I had to pick a second one, it's one he said to me when he actually was coaching me one time. He said, you're. You're not a victim of circumstance. You're only a victim of your own perspective. And that just like, just it like that hit me. That hit me between the eyes and it's changed how I see the world.
- [73:58]
B
Yeah. Peter's so good. The just. Yeah, he's great. Favorite book or a book that was pivotal in your life? One that you maybe like to refer or share as a gift. Maybe something Impactful book. Yeah.
- [74:13]
A
And this will be, this will be on brand for me. One of my favorite people on the planet is a guy named Boyd Vardy. And so he actually wrote a book called the Lion Trekker's Guide to Life, which had a lot to do with my development and growth and love of lions. And. And I hired him to coach me for a bit. And just he's such a delightful human and he. What I was trying to say there. Oh. And he was so pivotal in like connecting me with the trackers that I work with now. I just, I'm so grateful for his generosity. He just like opened up his world over in Africa to me because he's from South Africa and I was working on navigating, like, where to go tracking and stuff like that. And he's just been so generous. So I'd say that book. And I'll try and think of a second one. You know, our company wrote a book called Beyond High Performance, which I think I really, it's. It's really, it's a. It's really good. We've been really proud of it and it's created so much work for us because it's a great like, entry point for people if they're interested in this work. You know, obviously there's my book that we'll talk about. But. But that book is a great like entry point to the coaching work and the coaching world that we do. And yeah, I'm really, really enjoy it. It as well. Yeah.
- [75:24]
B
Favorite genre of music, favorite song, favorite band.
- [75:29]
A
You know, it's. It's funny, I feel like my genres, they change so much, right. So I, I listen sometimes I'll listen to a lot of like kind of writing background lyrical music or sorry, non lyrical music, like lo Fi, stuff like that. But man, I'll get down with super poppy stuff. Like I. I love some Taylor Swift, I love some Justin Bieber, you know, so I can, I can spread pretty. A pretty wide net with it. And it really just kind of depends on what mood I'm in. I'm almost always in the mood for Leon Bridges. Are you familiar with Leon Bridges? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen him in concert a few times. I love. I love Trevor Hall. So I would say probably by default I'll go to Leon Bridges, Trevor hall, and then I'll just throw in a bunch of other random stuff.
- [76:14]
B
Yeah, yeah, random stuff. I'm an old rock guy, but I listen to. I'm not a music file though. Like, I'm. I'm just not, you know, yeah, same.
- [76:21]
A
Yeah.
- [76:22]
B
I hang out with people. Like, I'll be talking to them somewhere at an event or out the street, doesn't matter. And I'll be having a conversation with them, and they'll all of a sudden go, oh, that's such a great song. And I'm going, what are you talking about? I'm not even hearing it, you know?
- [76:35]
A
Yeah.
- [76:36]
B
Like, music files are really wired their brains that way. It's quite interesting.
- [76:40]
A
Very much so. Yeah. I've been there. Yeah. Favorite movie, I would say Interstellar is. Is very high on my list. I've watched it probably 12 or 13 times. You know, Christopher Nolan is a director. His ability to weave so many themes together. And I'll, like, talk with my CEO Jason, about it. He loves to pick apart. Like, not pick apart, but, like, dissect movies in a beautiful way to, like, extract the meaning from them. And I remember I loved the movie before I talked to him and then him and I had a conversation about it, and I was like. Like, I love this movie 10 times more. I was like, he talks about, like, the scene with McConaughey and his daughter in the room when he's gonna leave, and, like, all that's happening there. And I was like, dude, I missed, like, 90 of that. I was like, holy moly. Like, this is incredible. So, yeah, Interstellar, I mean, I'm a huge Christopher Nolan fan, so Dark Knight with Heath Ledger was one of my favorites.
- [77:31]
B
Yeah.
- [77:32]
A
And that even, like, just the richness of the dialogue in those movies is mind blowing to me, so. And obviously, I can. I can rock with, like, some of the basics, like Braveheart and Gladiator, love those Lord of the Rings, all that kind of fun stuff. But. But Interstellar is probably one of my main Go to movies that I love.
- [77:47]
B
If there is a God, what do you want to hear God say when you get to the gates?
- [77:51]
A
Oh, man. What? I want to. You know, man, throwing those grapefruits was fun, wasn't it?
- [77:58]
B
That's great.
- [78:00]
A
Let's do that again tomorrow. You know, I imagine him having a big smile on his face, you know, and saying, hey, it's good to see you. Something chill like that, you know?
- [78:11]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What are you grateful for today, man?
- [78:16]
A
You know, I'm grateful that I'm healthy. I'm gonna fly to Nashville here in a bit for an event around.
- [78:22]
B
Book.
- [78:23]
A
Book stuff with my publisher. I'm grateful I can get on a plane and fly, you know, I don't know how many. A couple thousand miles over to Nashville. Grateful for my dog. It just brings so much joy to my life.
- [78:35]
B
Yeah, dogs are great. Yeah, we have pre Bernese mountain dogs, so. Oh, yes, dogs are a big part of our life.
- [78:42]
A
Yeah.
- [78:43]
B
Actually run our life, I think sometimes pretty much.
- [78:46]
A
Yeah. They own the place.
- [78:48]
B
Well, I'm always grateful for the opportunity I have to speak with guests like yourself. And yeah, like you, I am grateful for my dogs, but I'm also very grateful for my family and the opportunities I get to do what I do on my podcast again, to meet individuals like yourself and to have these kinds of conversations. So thanks again for joining me and I'm sure we'll cross paths again sometime.
- [79:11]
A
What a gift, man. Thank you so much. I appreciate you.
- [79:15]
B
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. If you found value in the podcast, please take the time to rate and review and share with others. Share with your friends as it is my goal to always improve and to provide the highest value for you, the listener. If you have any comments, suggestions or questions you'd like answered, please email me@ceoaincanada.com that's CEO E I N Canada.com I look forward to hearing from you. And until next time, Patrick O.