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The Everyday Millionaire and Mindset Matters Podcast
Mindset Matters - Episode #155 - The Invisible Cage: How Guilt and Shame Keep Us Stuck
00:33:17
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- [00:04]
A
Hi there and welcome to this episode of the Everyday Millionaire Mindset Matters podcast, where I'm joined by my wife, Olympic mental performance coach, Stephanie Hanlon. Franci. In these episodes, Stephanie and I have a conversation about the different aspects of what we refer to as Mindset Matters because we believe that for those who are awake, we are living in and through the most impactful time in history. Your view of the world is the filter for how you will experience the evolution and changing dynamics of it. Our intention is to provide you with ideas, nutritious food for thought, and some tools that you can use to help you in being your greatest self and living your best life. Listen in, Enjoy. Welcome to the Everyday Millionaire. Stephanie.
- [00:55]
B
Hey, hon.
- [00:56]
A
Okay. Shame, guilt, embarrassment, regret. Big words, deep. We've all felt that. Everybody's felt that at some point, right?
- [01:09]
B
Way to keep it light off the top, hun.
- [01:11]
A
Way to keep it light. Okay, I'm gonna kick it off with a metaphor which we've done the past couple of shows. I kind of like it. It gives a good context for us. So here we go. So once upon a time, there's this young, brilliantly, vibrantly colorful bird that was in a cage with its parents. And one day the door of the cage opened and the young bird was feeling quite adventurous. So it told its parents that it wanted to go out of the cage to spread its wings and fly. And the parents said no. But guess what? The pull to adventure was just too great. And the young bird flew out of the cage anyway. And then the timing was such that the window in the house that the cage was in was also open. So it went out the window. Problem is that when the young bird tried to return, he couldn't. And while he was trying to figure that out, he was captured by a couple of young children. And they took him and they put him in another cage. It was a very small, dark cage. And the cage door, they closed it. And the bird was left there feeling guilty, feeling ashamed, regretting leaving his home, leaving his parents. And now he was trapped. And he believed, actually over time, that he had lost his ability to fly. The bird had actually come to think that its wings were too weak and that it deserved now to stay in this cage for the mistakes that it made, that it had made, and it couldn't undo those mistakes. What was done was done. The bird was filled with embarrassment, self doubt, was filled with shame, convinced that because of its past mistake, it would never be free again. Then one day, a gentle breeze passed by and it nudged the cage door open. But Even though the door was now wide open, the bird remained in the cage. It was too ashamed, it was too guilty to believe it was even allowed to fly, to be free again. It feared failure, it feared judgment. And the weight of its past mistakes weighed heavy on it. Now, after some time, the bird looks around and he noticed that there were other birds flying freely, soaring in the sky. And it had a realization. And that was that the cage was no longer holding it back. It was in fact its own guilt and shame that had kept its trapped, its embarrassment, its regret. But slowly the bird stepped out of the cage, spread its wings and discovered that despite everything, it could still fly. So I guess to me the moral of that parable is that guilt and shame can act like invisible cages. And whether we're conscious or not conscious of it, we come to believe that we're trapped and maybe unable to move forward or to live fully because of our past mistakes or our shortcomings. A self implemented punishment even. But in reality the often is that the door to our potential is in fact wide open. We just need to let go of the self imposed limits of guilt and shame. So that's the parable, that's the story. Invisible cages, guilt, shame, embarrassment, regret. Oh my gosh. What's your thoughts?
- [04:54]
B
Well, you surely give me a heads up when you're going to give these really cool stories, but I really like that one because it really resonates with me a lot when I think about, you know, the people that I've worked with over the last 30 some years is many of them have some really big goals and many of them just get to a certain point and then they give up or they find reasons or excuses to not take the next step. And my commitment is to always, always, always let my certainty squish their doubt. And sometimes my certainty also has to squish their shame or shine a light on where they're operating and holding themselves back because they're feeling guilty about something that may or may not have happened back, you know, back in their past. And I think one of the things that's really sad for, you know, when I'm working with a person is that when I see their brilliance and I see the bill, their ability to fly, but their self imposed limitations are what's in their way. It's hard sometimes because I can't want something more for somebody than they want for themselves. But I can be the space and we can be the space to shine a light on the fact that maybe it's just some old trauma, some old Guilt, some old shame that might be holding you back. And the truth is our past is not what's true anymore. You know, our memories many times are designed for self preservation. So what that means sometimes is it holds us back from stepping into being seen or really flying and spreading our wings.
- [06:17]
A
And. So what's your thoughts? I mean, when I think about, you know, my own, some of my own story, I mean, back in, you know, many years ago as a young man, you know, I mean, I'm pretty wide open about, you know, my dad and I never really got along all that well. I mean, his intentions, in hindsight, were always probably quite good. He had his own stuff that he was dealing with. And so therefore the cycle was repeating. I had to break the cycle. But I was at the effect of what he was going through. My point is, is that some of his way of operating and how he dealt with me was really about shame, shaming me or guilting me, passive aggressive behavior. Those are wounds that I had to heal, that I had to bust through. And although he was never, I think, well, he was never physically abusive, and I don't think he was ever intentionally emotionally abusive. He came with his own demons and therefore his own limitations. And, you know, that kind of was the cycle that got passed on. So I kind of know this one a little bit. And I realized that over the years, I mean, you've been part of my own journey that I've had to bust through some of those things. I mean, we've done, both of us have done a lot of work in that regard. But you start to realize that at some point, if we don't reflect, if we don't have that self reflection and understand, you know, maybe there is something in our way of our history, of our story that we're telling ourselves about, whatever it might be. You know, some it could be, you know, what we think about as trauma and what we even describe as trauma is interesting, isn't it? Because we know that there's the definitive trauma of maybe physical abuse or coming from a family of, I don't know, alcoholism or whatever the story is. Right. But my point is, is that then there's just subtle trauma. There's just how we grow up and the way our parents raise us and the things that we go through that can be carried forward is my point of that story. And that can be, in fact, what limits us. So as much as we talk about mindset and having a strong mindset, sometimes there are wounds to heal. There are things to look at that we have to kind of face it and go, oh, gosh, I wonder if I am operating from that place. So before I pass back to you, I want to just share one of the common things you and I have both seen over the years, which is, for example, kids that go into a career or go into university because that's what their parents want and wanted. And they in fact, didn't want to go to university for that reason. They didn't want to get that job. That wasn't their best interest. It was their parents. You know, whatever parents do in terms of living vicariously through their children or whatever that is, you know, I don't need to go down there. But ultimately kids are doing and we do things for our parents and when we kind of snap out of it at some point, hopefully we go, no, I don't want to do that. That is what I want to do. And then we feel guilty and we may feel some sh. What's your. What's your thoughts?
- [09:22]
B
I just don't know many people in this world right now that aren't operating through some sort of filters from their past. I mean, it takes a very brave person to do the work that it takes to step out of that. And when guilt and shame are driving us, whether it's maybe it's. Maybe it's grief, you know, we don't know many times what's in our way and why we make the decisions or don't make the decisions to move our lives forward. I think, I don't know really any people that, you know that I've worked with that aren't anchored in some sort of shame statement. And I mean, the work we've done over the years, especially through the Hoffman process, is that it really is grounded in uncovering your shame statement and how it's limiting your next level of your belief system, which we call our bs, right? And when we're operating through a certain belief system that we don't believe in ourselves, or we only believe a certain level of success or abundance or love or whatever is available to us, then we stop ourselves. And I think that's what is really sad about when we're operating from that state of guilt and shame. You know, when you really open up the opportunity in the conversations and help people shift out of that and they start to feel a little bit of freedom, similar to the bird in your parable, is that they start to see that there really is nothing in their way other than what's in their past. And when we're operating from trying to create our best Selves, but also anchoring ourselves because we don't deserve it. See, that's the thing. If we're operating from guilt and shame, we actually don't deserve what we say we want. So it becomes this really sad downward spiral. And I think the work we've done around mind shift and really moving into the unknown because when we step out of our guilt and our shame, health.
- [11:09]
A
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- [11:16]
B
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- [11:25]
A
Well, there's a couple of interesting. So first off, we have to say, well, what can that even look like? There was a. I literally just read recently. So someone was sharing a story. Now he's a coach and he was sharing the story about working with a high end young man, very, very wealthy, came from a very wealthy family. And he was really troubled one time when he was working with this particular coach and the coach says, what's going on? And he goes, well, you know, I'm hanging out with all my friends and they all drive Ferraris and I drive a BMW and my dad won't buy me a Ferrari. And he was carrying a lot of embarrassment and actually a lot of shame with that. And it was interesting because the next part of a conversation in that particular interview that I was listening to was how he himself dealt with and came from a very wealthy family. And he was driven to school by a driver. They had a, they just had a driver, a limo driver. And he was actually having the driver drop him off one or two blocks from the school every day because he didn't want to be seen in the back of the car with the driver and so, or getting out of that particular car. That for him was unbelievable shame. He was embarrassed about it to have that wealth because he was hanging out with some people that didn't have that wealth. And so it was like a deep secret that he had and feeling guilty. So it isn't always about. My original point was that it's not always about these harsh traumas that can leave us, you know, messed up that way. I mean, it could be seemingly like, what do you got to complain about? You're, you know, you got a driver taking you to school. But when you're 15, 14, 16, whatever the age group was at that time, it was really traumatic for him and he didn't have a choice. And so, you know, it's a different way to kind of understand the psychology of just how innocent it can seem or how a little crazy to think that, but that's really what you're dealing with at that age. And then how that carries forward and you bring that with you into being an adult and you carry that. And if you're not aware of it or if you don't stop to think about it or address it, maybe you are aware and you don't know how aware of it and you don't know how to deal with it. But ultimately that can be what is got you caged, what has you caged. Back to the parable. And so it's something to, I guess, think about and really speaks to the mindset that we often talk about.
- [14:04]
B
Oh man. I think what you're saying is, it's so true. I mean, I'm dealing with world class and Olympic athletes and the best of the best. And you know, I was just having a conversation tonight with one of them and they're, and they're talking about as if this is all normal, but they don't. They forget about where they came from over the last 10, 12, 15 years. Right. Is that they didn't start out here. And I think when we compare ourselves, you know, as human beings or as entrepreneurs, athletes, business owners, we compare ourselves to where people are at. We don't know their stories, we don't know their trauma, that we don't know where they come, they came from. We don't know what they've had to break through to get where they're at. And I think that's the other part of this, is that, you know, from both sides, like, you know, you, you have a driver, what the hell, like, what's your problem? And then the other side is that what you have a BMW, you don't have a Ferrari, what the hell, you know. But at the same time, we never ever know what's going on for other people. And we don't know what their, what their trauma is. We don't know what they're blaming. We don't know what they feel guilty, their shame, where they're feeling humiliated, where they, you know, just feel, you know, despondent or whatever because we put our own limitations on other people. So what I've really, you know, what I heard when you were talking, is that what it would be like, what would it be like if we had the opportunity to have conversations with kids, teenagers, and shine a light on the fact that, you know what, we're all dealing with something. We're all dealing with something. We're all caged, we're all feeling Guilty about something. You know, I broke a vase and didn't tell somebody. I mean, we, it could be something that simple and we're bringing it forward and filtering it through a lot of the decisions that we're making. So it really holds us back. So I think what, what I'm hearing is that how do we create safe, a safe place for people to have conversations, to bring up? Maybe what they're most guilty, what they feel most guilty about, what they're most, you know, feeling ashamed about. And what that leads to is sort of a, I don't know, a self awareness. But that can lead to self love. And when we have that space and we know we all fuck up, we're all, none of us are perfect. And when we get that and we can be, you know, have that humility and speak from that humble place, I think we create a safer place for people just to be where they're at.
- [16:22]
A
Well, you know, there's a role that I think that parents all play. So if you're a parent and you're listening to this and you know, there's a couple things that we often come across, and maybe you as even a parent, you felt it, you know, which is how many times have we heard, and particularly from men in my case is where I've heard it mostly. Not that women haven't said it, but it's that all I ever wanted my dad to do was say, I'm proud of you, right? And it's so simple. But we sometimes, depending on how you're wired, you may be that dad or that individual that's driving you, may be that a type personality, you may be, or you may not be great at expressing those kind of feelings that may be far too intimate for you to have that kind of a conversation with your children, whatever is in your way of doing it, but a kind of reminder to parents is that, you know, unintentionally, you know, you're doing the best you can do. My dad was doing the best he knew how, there's no question about that. But this, you know, many years later, you start to realize how kind of dysfunctional that relationship was and how much healing that I had to do over the years around it. And so I think for parents it's to shine a light on that. You know, how many times have we, you know, said or, or had the conversation about, you know, we just listen, I've said to, you know, my daughter or our daughter, I said, erin, you know, I know we just fucked you up, but we didn't do it intentionally. We have pretty wide open conversation, laugh about it, but really pretty innocent stuff. So that's one side of it. And you know, because I know that she has expressed. Dad, I've just felt so guilty sometimes because of, you know, the standard that you set and Stephanie stats and blah, blah, blah. Right. And they live and they operate on top of all of that and it gets in the way. And so I think it's pretty normal. But it's. Then the not normal part isn't actually dealing with it, having a conversation around it, shining a light on it, addressing it, and so you can bust through it so it doesn't become that cage. And I love. Actually now that I think about that parable, it does. I really like it.
- [18:24]
B
Yeah, it's really great. I think that the guilt and the shame piece of it, when we're all just doing the best we can and then we don't realize how people are seeing us or how we're seeing other people and how we can use that as a guilt, like as a gilded cage that we're not moving through our own issues in a place of self acceptance, you know. And my dad is 95 years old right now and I just love him so much. And this whole last journey since 2002. 2000, sorry, 2020, when my mom passed away, is that he's told me he loves me and he's proud of me more often than I can even imagine. And I don't remember, you know, growing up. I mean, we're all busy and Michael and I were in sports and mom was busy working and dad was working and we were just in life. I don't remember or I don't think I needed to feel or hear that they were proud of me or that they loved me. I knew it. But it's interesting now that he's stepping into this stage of life where there's not a time to go by, we're not on FaceTime or I'm not there sitting on the couch where he doesn't tell me he's proud of me, you know, And I'm. I'm old now, you know, so I'm. I'm really letting it in. So for you parents out there, even if you don't feel it or if it's difficult to say, start saying it to your kids. Because you know what? They're going to change and grow and be somebody that you can't even imagine they're going to be. If you tell them that they're proud of you or you're Proud of them.
- [19:46]
A
So when we look at, you know, there's a. Another athlete that you worked with some time ago, and this is a little bit about as much as we use these as examples. You know, this is about you or you as a listener kind of reflecting on where maybe you are not fully stepping into what your potential is because of maybe what you're operating on top of that shame, that guilt, the regret, whatever it might be, that's getting in your way. And you'd worked with an athlete that spent his career, and he happened to be in the NHL, but he spent a lot of his career just wanting to impress his father. It's your story, not mine, so I don't want to go down it, but I just wanted to spark your memory of that story.
- [20:29]
B
Oh, yeah, that was powerful. I mean, this was a player who I was started out as a skating coach and performance coach, but then they ended up hiring me to work with he and his wife as they were deciding, you know, where they wanted to live and how they wanted to, you know, where they wanted to raise their family and these kinds of things. And I was going through a process with him one day and we were chatting and we were talking about this. One of the exercises, I call it the bfl, you know, the Big fat lie. What's really driving you? And we were talking about things and I said, hey, you know, what is it that you really, really love to do? Why do you love playing this game? And what is it? Why do you want to be on the first line? And I was doing all the kind of the high level questions with him, and he said, well, you know, because I want to create a great life for my family. I went, great. Love that. So that was the first layer, right? And as we peeled back the onion, it was like, okay, well, what's another reason? Tell me why you want to create a life, great life for your family. Well, you know, I want my kids to be proud of me, and I want my wife to feel like she's totally supported and that we have. I can provide the life that she wants. And I went, o, oh, yeah, okay, all right, let's go a little deeper. And when he got in his heart a little bit more and I, because I acknowledged him, I didn't comment or really make him wrong for anything like that. I said, well, I think there's probably one more reason a little bit deeper. Why do you really, really, really, really, really want to do this? Why do you want to be in the first line and be an NHL star? And I remember him sitting back in the chair and kind of looking down and taking a breath and he goes, I just want my dad to be proud of me. So what was underneath all of the things that he thought was driving him was this need to please his father. And I called that the big fat line. If we could just put that on top and shine a light on and go, you know what, that's okay. We all want our parents to be proud of us. But if that's what's driving underneath, there's a lot of decisions that we make that take us off the journey. And we can really screw up in certain ways because we're not telling the truth about what that true wound is that we're trying to get healed. So that to me was a really powerful experience.
- [22:27]
A
Well, you've used this and I've used it many times over the years and working with some clients and that one of the questions we sometimes ask, given whatever circumstances are, is, you know, the question goes along the lines of how many times in a week, in a day, in a month, that as you're making a decision about something, anything, by the way, doesn't matter what the decision is that you're asking yourself, after you're looking at or considering the decision or considering what you're going to do, you ask yourself, what would mom or dad think? Now, depends. Some will say, well, what would my mom say? What would my dad say? But are you asking yourself that question? And it's surprising how many people go all the time? All the time? I ask myself all the time, what would dad think? What would mom think? Others go, no, no, nope, I'm good. I don't ever think that that's great. But how many people often are checking in, going, as they buy a car or a house, or they take on a new job or they get a raise or whatever, they're in the back of their mind, they're going, I wonder what mom or dad would say.
- [23:33]
B
And would they approve?
- [23:34]
A
Would they approve? Right? Would they approve? What would they think about it? Which is interesting because as we're working with a 35 or a 40 year old or a 50 year old or whatever you then, you know, when somebody says, well, yeah, I think about it often, you know, the question is, why? You know, ultimately, what does it matter? You're living your life. Your parents only ever want. And parents only ever want, primarily they just want you healthy and they want you happy. And the rest, really, it's not up to them. And as long as you're healthy, as Long as you're happy, guess what? You're on your own. You're an adult. You're going to make decisions. And quite frankly, you know, why would you make decisions based on your parents? Now, I'm not going to get into the nuances and relationships and all the rest of it, but you have to ask yourself, how much are you being driven by what your parents would think about you? And what's really funny about that whole story is that we often have scenarios where that parent has passed, is no longer with us. So it is interesting, the psychology of what shame, what guilt, what embarrassment, what regret, what it can drive in terms of how we live our life. And sometimes it's not always about playing small either. It could be really about being very gregarious and big and bold and aggressive and all the things to be seen. So there's the other side of that where it actually puts you into this level of almost toxic in terms of relationships or toxic in the way you show up. So I don't know if you want to comment on that.
- [25:11]
B
Well, yeah, it's true. Like, we talk about the one side of that equation, but how many times also have I heard people say, well, I just want to be the exact opposite. I'm not going to do that because my parents did that, or I'm going to do that because my parents didn't do that. So there's this swing of transference that happens when we're operating from guilt and shame and from those stories is that we either want the approval from our parents or we want to say, no, doing the exact opposite, you, Right? So, but you're still being driven by guilt and shame. So until you bust that, until you bust that, which is really hard for some people because it also has formed part of their identity in which is a whole other workshop. But when your identity is built on either doing the exact opposite your parents raised you, or the, you know, doing everything that you think that they will approve of you. Those are two things that really keep you away from your best self.
- [26:07]
A
I go back in my own memory, and of course, this was, you know, you've been on these in. In conversations where you've been sitting around the table and breaking bread or having fun or whatever, and you're sitting with a group of adults, and then they get into, you know, I'll. When you're young, before you even have kids or maybe just after you have kids, the whole point is, is that the story will often go, I'm not going to bring my kids up the way I was raised right. It's like I, you know, I'm going to. It's going to be different. You know, I don't want them to go through what I go through. Now that's a different conversation for boomers. I don't know if that's so much a conversation today. Maybe it is. I haven't been in those conversations with, you know, that age group. But my point is, is that I always thought when I was. At some point I got. As I'm listening to those conversations, I came to the conclusion and I asked the question, did you turn out so bad? You know, yeah, you were spanked or you were, you know, locked out of the house, or you were a turnkey child or whatever the story is, right? Like, there's all these stories. I'm never. I don't want to raise my kids that way. And I get it. I do. I 100% get it. But there's a part of it where I had to ask the question, well, did you turn out so bad? Like, are you a, you know, serial killer? And I don't know. It, like, what's going on? Are you that. That messed up? So I don't know where I'm going with that comment, other than we often live in that story.
- [27:28]
B
It's so true. And then how many times I remember when you started saying that, and it really does shut the conversation down because they're like, oh, that's a really good point. I mean, one of the guys that you interviewed early on in the Everyday Millionaire, Mark Workington, really shine a light on that when he, when you said to him, you know, why are you doing this? Why are you building all this? Well, this is your kids and your legacy. And he's like, no, why would I do that to my kids?
- [27:50]
A
That was so profound. So good. That was so profound. Why would I do that to my kids? Yeah, so the whole story, just to bring people into that conversation, because I think it's a great story, was Mark was on the podcast. He talked about being raised as a, you know, as the. I think he had a couple siblings. But anyways, his father was a pastor, his mom was a stay at home mom. So can you imagine lifestyle? I mean, it's not like a pastor makes a lot of money. Mark went on to, you know, really great, amazing business, successful lawyer, done all the stuff, really had created a lot of wealth. When I asked him that question of, you know, are you. Why are you doing all this? Why, you know, is this for the legacy for your children? He went he would actually kind of looked at me like I'm some kind of weirdo. What are you. Why would I do that to my children? They'll go to school and I'll feed them and they'll do whatever they want to do when it comes to that education, because there's a big believer in that. But ultimately, no, they're going to go out and make it on their own. I am who I am because of that. And why would I take that away from my children? Why would I give them anything? You know, my obligation as a parent is to feed them and give them a roof over their head and get them educated. And there, go, be gone. So go, and I love you, and I want to be a grandfather. All the rest of that story. But the point was I went, wow, how often? And so what's interesting about that, and I'll just finish on this, is that often when I'm talking to real estate investors, when we talk about, why are you investing in real estate? And they say, I want to leave a legacy for my children. I can't even count the number of times that somebody shared with me a story about a great deal they got on real estate because the parent had passed the real estate onto the kids. And the kids go, I'm 60 fucking years old. Why do I want a piece of real estate? Get rid of this crap. I don't want to go through what my parents went through. And I. And it cracks me up because we live into some fantasy that our kids are going to want to do what we do. It's like we look at our businesses and Aaron's not interested in taking over those businesses. Not in the least. And so there is not even a exit strategy to have the kids involved. So it's kind of funny that we. We actually try, and I guess I don't want to say force, but we think our kids are going to live into our values when it comes to real estate or businesses. You know, you think about it is that somebody's going to exit real estate when they're 65, 75, 85. Well, how old are their kids are going to be? Their kids are going to be well established. They're probably, why do I want to take over a multifamily building anyways? It kind of makes me chuckle a little bit because then there's investors that are going, so I got this.
- [30:39]
B
I'll take it.
- [30:39]
A
Yeah, I got this great deal because these kids didn't want anything to do with their Dad's, you know, 24 plex right. It's so. It's kind of funny. Anyways, where are we going with this? So the whole point is, is that when we look at the guilt, the shame, the embarrassment, the regret, so much of it is driven by whatever we think our trauma was or whatever we think our parents expectations were, it often stems there. The point of this conversation is to be aware of it. In other words, are you in fact operating on top of an old story that some trauma, some conversation, some expectation that you think your parents have of you or whatever the story might be. And so that's keeping you playing. Not full on.
- [31:28]
B
Yeah.
- [31:29]
A
Keeping you caged.
- [31:30]
B
It's actually a survival paradigm. It's keeping you in survival and not living your best life. Like when we're living in survival, which you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs and we're down in survival, you know, food, water, shelter, sex. Like, we live there. And if we go into that cycle and we just live on that, bottom of the. Of Maslow's hierarchy is that we're in survival. And the sad part is, is that if we stay there, we never actually get to experience what life could actually be like. And I think what I really am proud of us is that as a couple of Northside kids is that we both believed enough, I think, in ourselves and each other and had the people around us to say, you know, you don't have to live in the. In the lower paradigm. You don't have to live down in those survival kind of attributes. What if. What if, if you just, you know, put your head up a little bit and flap your wings and look outside, maybe there's something even a little bit better than what you know. But don't let guilt and shame and fear and grief and apathy and despair be what drives you. And I think that's really what. When I think about shift and, you know, mindset, I think, okay, well, what if those aren't just feelings? What if that's a decision that people. That I'm making, is to stay there.
- [32:44]
A
Beautiful. And on that note, I think we'll leave it there. So thanks for listening. I hope that this was good. Thanks, Stephanie.
- [32:53]
B
That was fun.
- [32:56]
A
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. If you found value in the podcast, please take the time to rate and review and share with others. Share with your friends as it is my goal to always improve and to provide the highest value for you, the listener. If you have any comments, suggestions or questions you'd like answered, please email me@ceoraincanada.com that's CEO RE. I look forward to hearing from you. And until next time, Patrick O.