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The Everyday Millionaire and Mindset Matters Podcast
Mindset Matters - Episode #164 - From Rivals to Allies: Lessons in Communication and Leadership
00:32:46
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- [00:00]
Patrick
Foreign.
- [00:05]
Stephanie Hanlon
Welcome to this episode of the Everyday Millionaire Mindset Matters podcast where I'm joined by my wife, Olympic mental performance coach Stephanie Hanlon. Francie. In these episodes, Stephanie and I have a conversation about the different aspects of what we refer to as Mindset Matters because we believe that for those who are awake, we are living in and through the most impactful time in history. Your view of the world is the filter for how you will experience the evolution and changing dynamics of it. Our intention is to provide you with ideas, nutritious food for thought, and some tools that you can use to help you in being your greatest self and living your best life. Listen in. Enjoy.
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Patrick
Stephanie. Here we are, another episode of Mindset Matters.
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Francie
Hi, hon.
- [00:56]
Patrick
So at the time of this recording, you are about to go to France, by the way.
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Francie
Correct.
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Patrick
And what are you going to be doing in France?
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Francie
The Grand Prix finals. So after the six Grand Prix events are completed, in world class sport, in my case, ice dance and figure skating, there's a final. And the sixth one was completed last week in China. And now we're off to the final and four teams from the Ice Academy Montreal have qualified. There's only six teams that qualify, so we've got more than half of the field. And so I'm going there. I'll be back within the week. It's just a quick in to France and back again.
- [01:34]
Patrick
So. Cool. I'm excited to hear how that goes. You're leaving me at home alone, Just being the dogs.
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Francie
Yeah, Sorry about that. That's hard for me, too.
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Patrick
That's so funny. Okay. Sorry about that. Yeah, nice apology for that. Okay, you're off to do your thing. That's awesome. And look forward to hearing the results of that. But it's interesting because I'm actually using it as a little bit of a segue into one of our topics today. And the topic is really to kind of break down some points that were written in a book that neither of us have read, but we kind of read the executive summary, if you will, and it's called Collaborating with the Enemy. It was written by Adam Quejon. And I just realized that as I'm asking you about France and given what you've done for so many years, collaborating with the Enemy is interesting because you've shifted what that is. You're working with world class athletes. So for those who may be listening to your story a little bit, for the first time, you work with world classy athletes. Many countries from around the world who compete against each other in a big way at a Olympic and world class level, but train and work with each other on a daily basis. So do you get that segue? Like, do you see how brilliant I am and how I brought that together?
- [03:02]
Francie
Just pulled that out of your ass, didn't you? That was amazing. Well done, well done. Okay, but let me just dovetail on that a little bit. You're right. There's also a Patrick Bet David book called Know your Keep your enemy. No, Keep your enemies close. And one of the things that I, I don't like about these books is that they use the word enemy. But it kind of brings me to the conversation about competition and how competition is so valuable at every single level, and what we've done at the Ice Academy, Montreal, and what you and I will talk about a lot is how do you elevate your performance? How do you get the best out of yourself? Well, one of the ways of doing that is put yourself in environments where everybody is as good or better than you are. So if you're the best or the smartest in the room, they always say, never be the smartest person in the room. And in my case, I never am. But when we go into scenarios where we want to win, we want to be the best, is how do we train and bring the people that we're going to be competing against into the values. Conversation about, yeah, okay, we're all here to win. And in order to do that, the champion, I call it the champions paradox. In order to win, you have to beat someone else. Got it. But if you go into competition thinking, I'm going to beat that person, then you're actually in a lower vibration of energy. So what I do with the athletes that I work with is that, yeah, you're not going to beat anybody, you're going to win. And let's create. The description of winning is, yes, your competitors in that moment are your enemies. Your competitors in that moment are trying to beat you. Got it. But the truth is, whatever energy you're holding as you go in and staying true to your commitment, your training, your values, your vision, your planning, your preparation, then you're there to win, regardless of what's happening externally.
- [04:46]
Patrick
So.
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Francie
So that's why I love the title of this book and Patrick Beth Davis book and this conversation breakdown. He's got like 15 points. I don't think we have to talk about them all.
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Patrick
No, we're not going to talk about all 15 of them. I think Patrick Beth David's book is called choose youe Enemies Wisely. I think that's what it was.
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Francie
Sorry, Pat.
- [05:01]
Patrick
Yeah, that's all good. So let's just. This particular book, collaborating with the Enemy, I think is more for. Really, I think it's more designed for maybe working in that corporate structure where you've got a lot of different people, a lot of different personalities, you don't really have a choice who you're working with, etc. We wouldn't last five minutes in a corporate structure. So I don't profess to even want to try that. But there are some. Some things here that he brings up that I think we can hit on. You know, first and foremost, the 15 points. One of the 15 points that he covers is the power of dialogue, which is really about if we're going to have effective collaboration, it requires that we're open and honest, which is really challenging for people. Sometimes these conversations feel very confrontational and that the only approach to them is being confrontational. And when, in fact, if presented the right way, if the dialogue is changed, it just becomes about great communication, knowing that in order to make something happen, you have to be able to learn how to communicate. So I've got a couple thoughts around that, but I want to just pass it over to you. What is your comments, if anything, on this power of dialogue and communication?
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Francie
Well, dialogue is not just about talking more or talking louder so that you're heard. Or yelling, as we talked about on another podcast, is that if someone's yelling at you, chances are you might not be listening. So how do we use dialogue, and how do we invite somebody to speak in our values? Well, the only way I know how to do that is to speak in someone else's values. So seek first to understand, then to be understood. So dialogue is about a give and a take or give and a give, a give and a give. So pause. Listen. The other thing I find with dialogue is sometimes people are busy thinking about what they're going to say next and they're not really listening to what the other person is saying. So to me, a professional and elevated dialogue is about active listening.
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Patrick
So when we have these conversations in communication, in situations where there's, you know, a team or a group of people trying to sort something out, and when we have a very strong view of how things should be handled or a strong view of a direction that should be going, it can get heated and feel very confrontational. Now, if you haven't created the right environment for that, the rules of engagement, if you will, it can go off the rails pretty quickly. So what I've learned over the years is that if you're going to find yourself in that situation, or, you know, that is, you know, maybe you've got a team that you work with on a fairly regular basis. But set the context for this particular conversation, which is to say, okay, listen, we got a problem here, we got to come up with solutions. We're not all going to agree on it, but let's get something straight is that we're not here to beat each other up. We're not here to make somebody else wrong. We're here to come to some conclusions about, handle this and don't take things personally. So in other words, create the context for the dialogue that you're about to have. That's really important. That way, you then kind of set the rules in motion. Now, I take this from a couple of. I don't remember who it was. It was a NFL football team who was really struggling. And one of the things that they agreed to with about halfway through the season was enough. They weren't being truthful with each other. They weren't calling each other out on the obvious shortfalls or the obvious not paying attention or the lackadaisical approach. And when you're competing at that level, you can't be that way. And you sometimes need people. You need people on your team to be able to call you out. So they actually created a context for that particular way of being within the team. Call it what it is. You know, a spade is a shovel. That's what it is. It's not a spade. A spade is not a spade. It's a shovel. And this is how we're going to call it. Right? So it's like, get your head out of your ass. You're not showing up. You went out drinking the night before your girlfriend's, this whatever the story might be, but you're not showing up to support a team that is committed to winning this championship. And they went on to win the championship. They came out of Seahawks, was it the Seahawks.
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Francie
And then they went home to win the title that year.
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Patrick
So anyways, it's all to say this. Is that within that communication, when we talk about. Effective collaboration also requires. Yes, it. It requires open and honest dialogue. But if you don't set the context for that, that meeting is going to go off the rails, or those meetings are going to go off the rails, and people are going to walk away from that angry and probably resentful of however that particular meeting went, and you're not gaining headway. So within the communication, there's a couple of things, you know One of the most effective dialogues that I've learned over the years, when you have to have conversations that are difficult with somebody or even a group of people, and this is a little bit of taking a page from the book, never split the difference. But this isn't where it came from. But it's the concept of how we lead into things. Whether we're talking to somebody, the flight attendant or the ticket agent at an airport or whatever the scenario is, we have to consider how we are entering a conversation. An uncomfortable conversation is to actually shine a light on it. So if I'm having to have a conversation with somebody for something they did, something they said, a result they didn't get, something they didn't follow through on, whatever the conversation is, one of the most effective ways is to actually shine a light on it. So if, Stephanie, if I'm going to have an uncomfortable conversation with you, I actually say that, I'll say, so, Stephanie, I've got to have a really uncomfortable conversation with you. I don't want to have it. I really. I don't like these kinds of conversations, but it is also important that I have the conversation. So if you're okay, I've got to say a few things that you may not like. Now, what I've already done is I've set it up. Yes, that person's heart rate may go up or they may start to go. But how do you get angry about where. I'm suggesting that this is an uncomfortable conversation, but it's an important conversation. So I've already given it a context. I've already set what the environment will be for it. And that takes a bit of the edge off, that sharp edge, that. And it takes a confrontation part of it off a little bit. It kind of diffuses the potential for confrontation. Any comments there?
- [11:45]
Francie
Yeah, to your point. Courageous conversations also, right? Like, how do you have a conversation with someone and you know they're potentially going to have their feelings hurt or they're not going to like what you have to say and. Or they don't have the emotional, the EQ or the aq, the adversity quotient or the emotional quotient to handle what you're about to say. So setting it up that way makes a lot of sense. I do know over years when we've had confrontations between the two of us, sometimes it can be like two bulls in a china shop and we just go. And we're not actually having a dialogue, we're just wanting to be heard. But I think in a corporate Setting to your point, to set it up so that there is a way to have difficult conversations or the courageous conversations in a controlled environment, almost like a boxing ring. You know, you set it up and say, you know, we're gonna have a difficult conversation. Here's the rules of engagement. No swearing. If you're yelling, you need to calm down. No crying or whatever it is that. That you wanna be able to say. And then say, okay, well, here's a. Here's a tool. I use a tool called straight talk. I'm gonna call straight talk right now. It means I need to get everything out that I need to get out, and you cannot respond until I'm done. That's difficult. But it's very respectful when you're asking for boundaries and you're asking to be heard. So there's times when I'm with a client and they need to say something to me or they need to do a straight talk, and then I listen and listen and listen and listen, and finally they get to the very end of it, and I get a sense that they're done. And then I always ask, is there anything else? So you dig into that conversation, and what it does is it shows a large amount of respect for how difficult it is to have some of those conversations.
- [13:22]
Patrick
So there's a part of what you just said which, I mean, that's a very mature, advanced approach to having these kind of conversations. But it does bring up one of the points that is made in this particular book, which is the role of facilitation. So when I'm having conversations with my team and there may be a little bit of in house disagreement or fighting or, you know, somebody's, you know, kind of pissing somebody else's cornflakes, and they can't seem to get it. I like to have the parties involved. I go, come on, let's get on a call. Let's talk this through. I'll facilitate that conversation. Again, I'm really. You know, for me, context is everything. And when you set the context for whatever a conversation might be, which means what are the rules of engagement? What is the environment that you've created? And how can you facilitate a conversation so that, you know, whatever the parties that are disagreeing or aren't aligning can listen and hear and come to a conclusion, that's a really key part of that. But within that role of facilitation and even within the communication, there was a line or a phrase or a way of being that you and I were coached on years ago, which is I don't agree, but I will align within the context of a team. And this is not something that he's brought up in this book. And I think it would be a point 16, which is you can walk away from a meeting not agreeing with what decisions are being made or have been made. And ultimately, though, you're on the team, which is to say, I don't agree, but I will align, which is only to say, I'm all in. I'm on rope, even though I don't agree with what we're doing or how we're doing it. And that's a really important role of a facilitator, for example, is to give a context for how can we come away from this? Because there's just going to be times where somebody's really steadfast. They're going, no, I don't believe this is going to work. Or I don't agree full stop, and I'm not going to agree. Okay, great. You're on the team. You got to be on rope. So you can disagree, but you have to align. So that's ultimately the kind of the conversation. How would you add to that?
- [15:38]
Francie
Once the decision's made, if you still don't agree and you don't align, then there's really no part. There's no place for you on the team. So it's not like you're giving up your values. You just go, you know what? I need to step up. I need to grow up, maybe get my own head out of my ass and align. Because the majority of the people in this regard are agreeing to move forward in this. And maybe by not agreeing but aligning, you can be the person that looks at things differently. You can be that sounding board or somebody that's going to look at things and poke holes and things. I don't think it's a negative. I think if as long as we're all aligned and moving forward, it's really, really powerful. I don't look for agreement in everything, especially as a leader. I don't want everybody just to kiss my ass and go, yeah, whatever Stephanie says or whatever Patrick says, yeah, we're all in. We're all in. Because that turns and bites you in the ass. Because then that gossip shows up. Unmet expectations, silent assumptions, and then there goes the dark. The dark side shows up again. So if we can just say, you know what? I don't agree, but I will align and I'm going to be the person that pokes holes in these decisions, because I'm very clear on my stand, but I am on team and I will align.
- [16:42]
Patrick
Beautiful. So that's just another way to approach that kind of situation. Now, there's one here that I'm going to point out. I don't like it because the word for me has lost the meaning that I think it had. And that is the value of diversity. Now, even within the context of what he makes in this point, diversity of thought and perspective. Got it. And it can lead to more innovative, creative solutions. I agree with that. And then it's like, but encourage diversity in your collaborative efforts. When people from different backgrounds and perspectives work together, they can bring a wider range of ideas and solutions to the table. That speaks to me of the whole dei Diversity, Equity and inclusion. Yeah. Oh, equity and inclusion. I forget the E anyways, because I'm just not. I can't buy into that right now. I just can't see what that has anything to do because really, yes, I agree with diversity, but am I going to force the river and say, okay, oh, well, geez, we don't have enough good ideas. We need to bring in more diversity of whatever culture and views. And I don't, I don't. The word for me just has been watered down.
- [17:51]
Francie
But I think it's been hijacked. It's been hijacked by the far, far, far left, Whatever. I don't even know what left and right means anymore. But the inclusiveness, diversity, it has been hijacked. And I think in a, In a corporate world or in a world like for us in small business, we've always been diverse. We've always had inclusiveness. We've always had from the range of personalities and male and female and straight and gay and indigenous and black and white and tall and short. We just want, you know, everybody to do their best work. And that to me is called meritocracy. And when you have a meritocracy, then you do listen to even the quietest voices or the ones who maybe you disagree with the most. It doesn't mean they're right or they're wrong because they have a different skin color. And to me, that's really what has gotten in the way of this particular word meaning, you know, the value of diversity. I mean, I believe in it. I'm strong. I see all sides in that regard. And people's opinion matter, regardless of their background. Political stripes, religious, whatever. But because the word itself in my world has been hijacked, I think it just scratches. That whole woke system drives me crazy.
- [18:59]
Patrick
But having said that, you know, the reality of it is, is that when we look at what we've done, we're not assessing and going, oh, have we got a diverse enough team? Anyways, I'm not going to go any deeper with that one. I'm pointing it out because it's there, but not a fan. Okay. This is. This is one that I, you know, speak to, and that is the importance of trust. And so how it is in terms of being essential in all things. And if you're working with, you know, in this, in this context, your enemies or enemy, how do you in fact, collaborate and have trust? And so the importance of trust, and this is what I speak to, is the four dimensions of trust. And here he talks about being honest and reliable and respectful. Got it? I break it down a little bit differently, and that is that, you know, first and foremost within the world of trust is whoever you're dealing with or yourself, you know, hold up a mirror, are you telling the truth? That's first and foremost. Second is reliability. Are you going to do what you say you're going to do, or is the person going to do what they say they're going to do? And then to me, the other dimension of trust is competence. So does that individual have competence? Can they actually do what they say they're going to do? And I always take it one layer deeper. And although somebody may not have the competence in that moment, the question is this. Are they reliable in gaining the competence that they need to do what they say they're going to do? And then all the fourth dimension of trust is what we call heart or what I call care. And that is the give a shit factor. Because somebody could be telling the truth. They can be reliable, they can be competent, but if they don't give a shit, if their heart's not in it, then we don't want them on the team and we don't want them part of the solution anyways, that's ultimately the Coles notes, from my perspective, of the importance of trust. What do you want to do? What do you want to say about that one?
- [20:52]
Francie
Trust and verify. And my mom always used to say, you know, trust in God, but tie up your camel, right? So if you don't tie up your camel, somebody's going to come by and just steal it. So you can just, you know, trust, leave your door open, leave your, you know, your purse out, how you know, or you can just trust blindly. And I think that to me, when you trust blindly, there's a chat, there's a. I don't say this the wrong way. An uncertainty that can happen because you're giving away your power. If you're not verifying that trust, if that person isn't reliable, if they don't have a great reputation, if they don't have the competency and they don't have the give a ship factor, then of course trust is off the table. But if we just give trust, and I've heard women say this, and not just women, but people say this all the time. I'm a very trusting person. I trusted, I trusted, I gave my heart, and then they screwed me over. I'm like, no, they didn't. Trust is no excuse for getting yourself for your camel being stolen. Just because you trusted somebody, it's not a compliment that you trusted that person without verifying or without doing the due diligence or dotting the T's and crossing the I's, so to speak. So trust to me is variable. It's earned. I don't go in expecting people to trust me immediately. I want to earn it, same as respect. I want to earn the respect by being consistent and trustworthy. So I think it's a really important word. And to your point is that trust, but verify, but also understand that competency and the care factor, to me, live way, way ahead of just, you know, bring it away for free.
- [22:26]
Patrick
Well, I think there's a fundamental there, and I've learned this one the hard way, sadly, the most expensive way, which is I am very trusting. And then there you cross a line where you're just being naive. And that's been very expensive lessons for me. So I want to go down this list quickly and then we can talk about where you want to go. There's the power of empathy and, you know, on the surface, you know, the ability to understand and share the feelings of others. I get that one. But again, I'm thinking about this book and how it's probably written in a kind of a corporate world. I think that's my read on it. The importance of respect. Treat others with respect regardless of their differences. And so I think that's fair. You know, we have to respect others. But to your point, what you just said is that respect is earned. And so that's, you know, I think a statement that has to be kind of got to unpack that a little bit. Be curious. There is the power of curiosity, the importance of flexibility is another point that he made in here. The power of patience. Got it. And sometimes you really do have to be patient in scenarios. The importance of celebration. This is one that we talk about even in unpacking and understanding the gap and the gain, what is your win, and then celebrate those wins along the way. The power of reflection, that is probably one of our biggest mantras is to reflect on the process, but also to reflect on how we are showing up. The importance of ethical leadership and it's essential for successful collaboration. Man, oh man, the power of inclusivity. Don't want to go down that one. And the importance of perseverance. We can unpack any of those. The importance of perseverance. If you're an entrepreneur, if you are really driven to be the best at something or to achieve something that you see is worthwhile, you're going to have setbacks. You are going to have to collaborate sometimes with people that you don't want to collaborate with. There is going to be perseverance to get through the challenges. Back to Ryan Holiday that we've talked about so many times. The obstacle is the way. So can we be persistent, not give up. So do you want to kind of dig into any of those from your perspective?
- [24:51]
Francie
Yeah, I think as you grow. For me, as I've grown over the years and gotten to know myself and, and what my strengths are, what my weaknesses are, is when I'm collaborating with teams that I maybe don't share common values with and certain. But we have an outcome that we want to achieve together. Yes, Perseverance and ethical leadership and all the things that, that he's talking about in this regard. I think the biggest thing is do we have a common vision? Do we. Are we fighting for something? In one of our podcasts a while back, we talk about what do we fighting against or what are we fighting for? And if we are having arguments with people that have different agreement, different values than us and different viewpoints. Yes, it's important to, to get it out on the table and to have the. I guess the, the reality check is that on a high level, if this is what in the, in the corporate world, for example, what they're given as a playbook, then I don't know if it really is going to give them the outcomes that they want. If they don't all believe strongly in the outcome that they're trying to get to, and I think where people get stuck is they want to do everything right, they want to do everything in order. And for me, what I love is the ability to be creative, do a whiteboard session, throw up all your bad ideas. There's no bad ideas. You know, get out there, see what's, what's different about my colleagues. What. How can I embrace the differences? Not from this. Because I have to, because it's diversity, and I'm going to include them whether I respect or believe in their values or not. To me, that's where we get cut off in the knees in this particular, I don't know, world that we're in right now. But when we embrace our differences and we embrace the fact that we're not all going to get along, you know, there's a. One of my jokes, I always say that Lady Gaga, you know, it's G A, G A. It's go along to get along. Yeah. Not my favorite. If you're just going along to get along, then you're going to be like the guys in the Seahawks dressing room who just saying, this is bullshit. I don't even want to be on this team. I don't fit in. But the guys who did buy into it and started to believe in the values and say, you know what? It's really important that I get to express what I feel and I get to express what you feel, and then you get to say it back. And I think that's where we get stuck in collaboration, is we just want to be heard so bad that we don't step back and have the maturity and the grace to listen to somebody else's opinion.
- [27:12]
Patrick
Well, there's a couple things, you know, as we wind this down. First off, we're not recommending this book by any stretch. It happened to be an inspiration for the conversation that we wanted to have, which was, you know, the title, Collaborating with the Enemy kind of goes against the grain of how we view the world. Having said that, we certainly respect the fact that many are in environments where they've got a job, they're working within an environment where they don't necessarily have a lot of control of who's being hired and why. We're at a different place in terms of how we are because we are entrepreneurs, we are the business owners. So we're actually hiring and creating that culture and setting the standard for who the team is and how we stand up. So we're not hiring random people because we want to meet this thing called DEI protocol. We're not. That's just not where we operate from. We're actually hiring teams that are all pulling in the same direction, which is not to say that we always agree and how we're going to get to an end result. And we often have, you know, heated discussions with anybody on the team, but we've put them in place so we know at their core values that as they've evolved and changed and developed and we're part of that development for them. It isn't the confrontational. Nobody looks at somebody else on our teams and go, that's the enemy. That's just not how our world has evolved or changed. And I mean, when we consider some of our team, you know, I look at some of my team have been with me 25 years, 15 years, you know, like, so it's it. We grow up with these individuals, they are part of the team. And over those years we often don't align. And so plus they're doing things that we're not in the business on a day to day basis. And so they're sometimes making decisions that we're going, where the hell did that come from? You know, and then we have to unpack that, understand it, have the conversations, but we don't come at it as if we're collaborating with the enemy. So it's an interesting title to the book. They brought up some interesting points that we wanted to shine a light on. So how would you want to round wrap this up?
- [29:18]
Francie
Well, out of respect, you know, over the years we've had the opportunity and the gift to work with a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds. And one of the most interesting and enlightening experiences I had with some of our ship clients over the years is some of them are coming from corporate. Yes. Some of them are coming from government. And hearing their perspective of how they survive in the roles that they were in. And they were coming to us for help, they were coming for us to help them reframe or reshape whatever the environment was. And I just think of one woman who was working, I think for the CRA and she couldn't align with the values. She was so against how things were doing, who they were hiring, what the government mandates were, and she was trying to stick it out because it was a job and it was great money and it had a pension and all these types of things. And we didn't want to make her wrong. So our job as coaches was to dig in and find out a way for her to just exist in that world and not be living against her values, staying true to herself, finding a way to collaborate and communicate with the people that she just didn't agree with. We also had a client once whose wife was a teacher and they were completely opposite. One was an entrepreneur, one was a teacher. And they couldn't figure out how they could bring that union mentality to the entrepreneurial spirit. And it wasn't to say, okay, you need to break up. It was. But how do we pull the strengths out of each of these amazing people that have completely different values and completely different input systems? Right. Because the person, the teacher was being inputted by the union and other teachers in the lunchroom, and they were all this and all that. And the entrepreneurs like, honey, we just need to figure it out. We need to just. Just throw our hat in the ring. And it was so in that world of divergence anyway, all of that to be said is that our job isn't to say it's right or wrong. Our job when people come to us and when they do, is to find those commonalities, find out where the strengths are and the diversity. The strengths are where do you have alignment and what can you move forward with? And can you live with somebody in partnership or in relationship that you don't agree with? I mean, to me, that's mature. This whole world of division right now. And let's find the next way. Oh, no, you're Trump. No, you're Harris. No, let's find a new way to divide people. No, let's find ways to bring people together.
- [31:35]
Patrick
Yeah, the finding ways to divide people, they're being very successful doing that. Okay. Having said all of that, when we look at how we show up, how we communicate, how we are on a team and or how we create a team, you know, really understanding, taking the time to give it some real thought. These were some points that we wanted to hit on today. I think that's a pretty good topic. Hopefully there's some lessons in there for our listener. And Stephanie, thanks.
- [32:07]
Francie
That was fun. See you soon.
- [32:10]
Stephanie Hanlon
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. If you found value in the podcast, podcast, please take the time to rate and review and share with others. Share with your friends as it is.
- [32:21]
Patrick
My goal to always improve and to.
- [32:23]
Stephanie Hanlon
Provide the highest value for you, the listener. If you have any comments, suggestions or questions you'd like answered, please email me@ceoaincanada.com that's ceor.com I look forward forward to hearing from you. And until next time, Patrick.
- [32:43]
Patrick
Oh.