Mindset Matters - Episode #176 - Your Ego is Not Your Enemy!

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Everyday Millionaire – Episode #176: "Mindset Matters - Your Ego is Not Your Enemy!"

Introduction

In Episode #176 of The Everyday Millionaire podcast, host Patrick Hanlon engages in a profound discussion with his wife, Stephanie Hanlon, an Olympic mental performance coach. Titled "Mindset Matters - Your Ego is Not Your Enemy!", this episode delves deep into the concept of ego, exploring its dual nature and its impact on various aspects of life, including business, relationships, and personal growth. Released on March 13, 2025, the episode offers listeners valuable insights and practical tools to harness their ego constructively.

Defining Ego: Friend and Foe

Patrick opens the conversation by referencing Ryan Holiday's assertion that "ego is the enemy." He counters this by proposing that while ego is not inherently detrimental, it can definitely kick your ass (00:53).

Quotes:

• Patrick Hanlon ([00:53]): "I say ego is not the enemy, but definitely can kick your ass."
• Stephanie Hanlon ([02:46]): "I love when we can fold in Ryan Holiday."

The Armor Metaphor

To elucidate the concept, Patrick introduces a powerful metaphor:

"Ego is like a suit of armor worn by a warrior. Initially, it protects against the harsh battles of life—criticisms, rejections, self-doubt. However, over time, the warrior may begin to believe that they are the armor, never removing it. What was once protection becomes a prison, limiting free movement and genuine connection" (04:23).

Quotes:

• Patrick Hanlon ([04:23]): "The ego is like that armor. It serves a purpose, but when we mistake it for our true self, it isolates us."

Dual Nature of Ego: The "Frenemy"

Stephanie builds on Patrick’s metaphor by describing ego as a "frenemy"—a friend that simultaneously acts as an enemy. While ego fosters self-preservation and motivation, it can also create barriers in relationships by fostering isolation and rigidity.

Quotes:

• Stephanie Hanlon ([02:46]): "It's a friend slash enemy. Because I Know, it keeps me safe… But at the same time, it also can work against me as my enemy."
• Patrick Hanlon ([05:04]): "Mastering our ego is learning when to wear the armor and when to take it off."

Ego vs. Self-Esteem

A significant portion of the discussion contrasts ego with self-esteem. Patrick highlights:

"Ego seeks validation, while self-esteem seeks truth and humility. People driven by ego resist criticism because they fear being exposed, whereas those with high self-esteem actively seek feedback and embrace growth" (13:02).

Quotes:

• Patrick Hanlon ([12:50]): "Ego seeks validation. Self-esteem seeks truth and humility."
• Patrick Hanlon ([13:02]): "People with high self-esteem accept feedback more openly… Those ego-driven people resist criticism."

Personal Experiences and Leadership

Patrick shares his personal journey, including his transition into a new role among highly accomplished CEOs, which challenged his existing identity and comfort zone. This introspection underscores the struggle of shedding ego-driven armor to embrace vulnerability and growth.

Quotes:

• Patrick Hanlon ([16:00]): "I'm not the oldest guy in the room, nor am I the smartest guy in the room… My ego has an identity of who I am, and I need to shed that armor."
• Patrick Hanlon ([33:47]): "The best leaders have a strong but very flexible ego because they're aware of it."

Ego in Relationships

Stephanie discusses the challenges of maintaining relationships driven by ego. She reflects on past experiences where the need to "row the boat" in relationships led to exhaustion and eventual detachment. The lesson emphasizes the importance of letting go when relationships no longer align with one’s values, without harboring resentment.

Quotes:

• Stephanie Hanlon ([28:19]): "I would rather fight for something… than tear down the intimacy or the relationship."
• Patrick Hanlon ([25:14]): "We have to fly their flags for them and they're not going to do it, then, then who's going to?"

Self-Reflection and Practical Tools

The Hanlons encourage listeners to engage in self-reflection to assess how ego influences their actions and relationships. They propose critical questions such as:

• Are you clinging to an identity that no longer serves you?
• Am I fighting to be right, or am I seeking to grow?

These reflections help individuals recognize ego-driven behaviors and pivot towards more authentic and growth-oriented mindsets.

Quotes:

• Patrick Hanlon ([10:25]): "Where in your life are you clinging to your existing identity even though it no longer serves you?"
• Patrick Hanlon ([35:31]): "Consider that maybe ego is driving you. Maybe you do have that armor on."

Making Ego Your Ally

In concluding the episode, Patrick emphasizes transforming ego from an adversary to an ally. He likens ego to fire—capable of providing warmth and guidance when harnessed correctly, or consuming and destroying if left unchecked.

Quotes:

• Patrick Hanlon ([33:47]): "Make your ego your amigo. Don't try and eliminate it. Make your ego work for you by gaining the awareness of when you are in it."
• Stephanie Hanlon ([38:16]): "Maybe one day we could do a podcast on unpacking narcissism."

Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with a brief mention of future topics, including the exploration of narcissism, highlighting the ongoing journey of understanding and managing ego. Patrick reiterates the importance of awareness and intentional management of ego to foster personal and professional growth.

Conclusion

Episode #176 of The Everyday Millionaire provides a nuanced exploration of ego, challenging the simplistic notion of ego as merely an enemy. Through metaphors, personal anecdotes, and practical advice, Patrick and Stephanie Hanlon offer listeners a balanced perspective on embracing and managing ego to unlock their fullest potential. By encouraging self-awareness and reflection, the episode empowers individuals to transform ego into a supportive force in their quest for success and fulfillment.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Patrick Hanlon ([00:53]): "I say ego is not the enemy, but definitely can kick your ass."
• Patrick Hanlon ([05:04]): "Mastering our ego is learning when to wear the armor and when to take it off."
• Patrick Hanlon ([13:02]): "People with high self-esteem accept feedback more openly… Those ego-driven people resist criticism."
• Patrick Hanlon ([33:47]): "Make your ego your amigo. Don't try and eliminate it."
• Stephanie Hanlon ([28:19]): "I would rather fight for something… than tear down the intimacy or the relationship."

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For more insights and transformative discussions, listen to the full episode on The Everyday Millionaire.

Transcript

[Patrick Hanlon]

Foreign. Welcome to this episode of the Everyday Millionaire Mindset Matters podcast where I'm joined by my wife, Olympic mental performance coach Stephanie Hanlon. Francie. In these episodes, Stephanie and I have a conversation about the different aspects of what we refer to as Mindset Matters because we believe that for those who are awake, we are living in and through the most impactful time in history. Your view of the world is the filter for how you will experience the evolution and changing dynamics of it. Our intention is to provide you with ideas, nutritious food for thought, and some tools that you can use to help you in being your greatest self and living your best life. Listen in. Enjoy. Stephanie, welcome.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Hey, hon.

[Patrick Hanlon]

So Ryan Holiday says ego is the enemy. I say I'm going to play off that an ego is not the enemy, but definitely can kick your ass.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Yes, it can.

[Patrick Hanlon]

How's that for an opening?

[Stephanie Hanlon]

I love it because I love when we can fold in Ryan Holiday.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Isn't that the truth? Okay, so, you know, when we talk about ego, it's a friend, it's a foe, it is the illusion often of who we are. And, you know, it's much as I've researched and over the years looked into what ego is, I still think for this particular show, let's give it a fundamental definition. And then I want to give a little bit of a metaphor and then we can start to unpack it because I want to look at what's going on for business, for relationships, for friendships. How does it affect all those things and including the relationship with ourselves? So are you okay with a couple of minutes?

[Stephanie Hanlon]

I love your little parables. They're so fun.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Okay, well, this isn't really a parable. Kind of. It is, I guess, of a metaphor. But let's do it for first, for this particular, you know, to add some context to this particular episode, let's give ego a definition. So ego is the identity we create to navigate the world. It is the story we tell ourselves about who we are, which is to say, it is neither good nor bad, but it is a part of us we need for self preservation and self expression. Now, at its worst, it distorts reality and keeps us trapped in limiting beliefs. At its best, it fuels growth, confidence, and resilience. So when we start to understand that, and let's unpack that definition a little bit. How am I doing so far?

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Good, good. I love it. It's funny, you know, when you think about ego, I look at it as more of a frenemy.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Frenemy? Yeah.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Friend slash enemy. Because I Know, it keeps me safe, it keeps me taking care of myself and looking after myself and looking after us and taking care of things. But at the same time, it also can work against me as my enemy. So it's a frenemy.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Very good, very good. Okay, so I'm going to give a metaphor and then we'll start to unpack it a little bit more. Okay, Parable, slash, metaphor. So ego, consider it the suit of armor. So let's begin by imagining a warrior who wears a magnificent, not less than magnificent, suit of armor. The armor protects that warrior from the harsh world of the battlefield. But in this case, the battlefield is life, it's business, it's relationship, etc. And metaphorically, it shields that warrior from the danger and battles of criticism, of rejection, of self doubt. And over time, what happens is, and what we are at the risk of, what the warrior is at the risk of is it begins, or the warrior begins to believe that they are in fact the armor, they never remove it, even when there is no battle to be fought or the metaphoric battle is even over. So the once useful protection now becomes ultimately like a prison. It limits the warrior's ability to move freely, to feel the world around them or truly connect with others. So that's my metaphor. How are we doing so far?

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Oh, boy. I have to tell you.

[Patrick Hanlon]

How's it going? So far so good.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

So far so good. Okay, I won't comment, but I did have it.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Then we're gonna go.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Yeah, go.

[Patrick Hanlon]

So the ego is like that armor. It serves a purpose, but when we mistake it for our true self, our true identity, it isolates us, it makes us rigid, it makes us defensive and definitely blind to new perspectives. So mastering our ego is learning when to wear the armor and when to take it off. And you have to know when you're wearing your armor and how it's getting in your way. So that's where we'll start.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

That's a lot.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Well, I know it's a lot, but we're good for taking on a lot, I think. I don't want to keep talking. I want to hear what you had to say. I did the opening. We're four minutes in.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Yeah. Okay. Well, I always say that ego does not want to die. Our ego is designed for self preservation. A lot like our memories. Like when we want to show our best selves and we want to show up being our best selves. Two things. The ego keeps us safe, it keeps us inspired, it can keep us making sure that we want to be the best that we can be on the flip side where the ego, that's the friend and the enemy. When I talk about the frenemy, the enemy of that piece is where it keeps us separate from people, where it keeps us in the armor. Not knowing that, for example, over the. Oh my gosh, over the years, 20, 30 years working with athletes and we've worked with police officers, we've worked with people who, border control agents that have to actually physically take off the uniform when they get home so they don't bring that character or that ideological identity to their relationships. And it's very difficult. And I think it's a high level of awareness that it takes to actually drop the armor and go home and be vulnerable and you know, be a dad or a mom or whatever and not think that your Persona or your ego is real. Because sometimes we have to put it on just to survive in the day to day world. Outside we're getting judged. I think of figure skating or hockey or a sport or whatever. You're putting yourself out there to get judged. People are going to say things, especially now with social media, that can really hurt. And it can go super deep inside if you don't have that, maybe that armor or that layer of protection, I call it your performer self. But ultimately you also need to know when it's time to drop it.

[Patrick Hanlon]

There's an interesting thing about even what you just said. So the ego protects us. And I believe that the ego protects itself. The ego doesn't want to be exposed. The ego wants to hide out. It either will inflate itself or often it will deflate itself. So it's not seen. I have shared the story on more than one occasion. When many years ago it was suggested that I needed to write a book, I should write a book. And I didn't feel like I had a book in me. And then as we were sitting on the beach, it occurred to me I should do a podcast. And then that was eight years ago, over eight years ago. And I recall very clearly how uncomfortable it was and how I realized at that time how my ego wanted to hide out. It didn't want to put itself out there where it could be exposed, criticized, have people attack the concepts or the idea, or tell me I wasn't doing a good job. So the ego, in my case, the way I look at ego, is that it's, it is, it is not who I am. It is a part of me and it's actually like a tool. You need it, you have to have that. Well, I'm going A little bit deeper. But I believe it's a necessary part of what not only protects us, but what gives us the courage to keep moving forward, to lean against it and push against our ego, our fight to say, no, I'm not smart enough. I'm a fraud. I can't do this. You know, like all of those things that the ego does to make you small, we know many who the ego does the opposite. It inflates them. Look who I am. I'm amazing. Doesn't care what you think. I believe I'm amazing, therefore I am. Like, it's those kinds of things. And that's what ego can, I believe, really kind of do from the psychology point of it.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Well, we need our ego because it's tied to our identity. You know, the id, the ego, the superego. You go back to Freud and, you know, the psychology of. Of being. When we think about our identity, right, Our id, our identity. If we don't have the ego to support us in. In moving forward a lot, I find many times that we don't have the. The motivation or the. The willingness to put ourselves out there. And on the opposite side to your point is that it also can force you to play small. And when you play small and people don't get this one, they just think ego's inflated. It's the big guy walking in the room and look at me and blah, blah, blah, and whatever. It's all about the external. That's also the hook, is that the other side of it is it will force you to play small, to not be seen, to protect itself. And I think that's when you talk about, you know, when we're sitting on the beach in St. Lucia, when you got to the fact that you don't want to write a book, but you want to do a podcast, you still had to put yourself out there. There's still going to be a place where you were gonna, you know, be judged. People will comment, they're going to say, oh, you're an idiot. You don't know what you're talking about. So whatever vehicle that we use, our ego, and I think of sport, you know, we've got the athletes, whether it's hockey players, figure skaters, you know, we've. They have to have a healthy ego. A healthy ego is your friend. It gets you up in the morning. It keeps you eating properly, it keeps you getting rest, it keeps you taking care of yourself in. In. So that you can achieve your goals. On the other side, if you're playing small, it's really what can tear you down.

[Patrick Hanlon]

So this is where you know, if you want to self reflect, there are some questions that you might consider and that is around identity, where you're clinging to that identity. How many times have we over the years had the conversation? We've talked about it several times on the podcast here. Mindset matters is that even in our own coaching and presentations that we talk about where there are those individuals that go, this is just the way I am now, that's ego saying, I'm not moving from this spot. I've got this armor on and this armor is who I am. And they will defend it as if it serves them. Yet they're the same individuals who are feeling stuck or feeling unfulfilled or decide that this is all they could ever be, all of those things. So the self reflection in that question is where in your life are you clinging to your existing identity even though it no longer serves you? That's one great question to ask yourself. Yeah, and there's a statement in all of this too, is that ego versus self esteem. And I love this one. And the big difference between, you know, with ego versus self esteem is that ego seeks validation. So important to get it. Ego seeks validation. Self esteem seeks truth. And I'm going to expand on that and say seeks truth and it seeks humility. So in other words, people with high self esteem accept feedback more openly. As a matter of fact, they search it out, they look for feedback. Well, those are that are being ego driven, resist criticism because they hear it as criticism and they hear it out of the fear of being stretched or out of the fear of going, well, what if they see me for who I really am? You know, whatever story you have around that the ego's going, no, they need to see you as I'm showing them, this is as much as we can do. And so it's an important kind of distinction, I think, for anybody who's kind of assessing where am I stuck in my ego, where am I inflating myself or more or I think more common. I believe maybe that's not true, but I believe more commonly is people. It is a limiting identity, a limiting belief that they have of themselves. And that is where ego really gets in the way.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Yeah, that's a really good point. Think about where we get stuck in trying to move forward, trying to create something that maybe hasn't been done before. And we keep going back to what we know. And I think that is what's ego is. And you know, when we first met, I remember saying to you, or you remember, say, I remember you saying to me all the time, well, it's just the way I am.

[Patrick Hanlon]

My ego doesn't want you to bring the. My ego doesn't want you to bring that up.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

I love your ego. Your ego is your amigo buddy. Anyway, so. And I remember asking the question, why is that? Why are you self defining or why? Just because that's the way you are. I don't get it. I don't get it at all. Because if we're going to actually create and be responsible for what we want to create in the world going forward, there's uncertainty. And I think what the ego doesn't want us to do is enter the uncertainty because there's the not knowingness, right? And one of my favorite exercises I do with my clients is the I don't know. Do you have permission to not know? And sometimes in our lives we're certain we know what we're doing, we know what path we have to follow, what courses we have to take, what degrees we have to get, and then we achieve that now what right? So we're in the power, as always say that my book is going to be called the Power of Now what? Right, the now what is the uncertainty. It's what, it's what is the ego's softening going into, you know what I don't know. And when you can train your ego to say I don't know, then your ego does become your amigo. It becomes your friend. It doesn't stay your enemy. Because the I don't know actually is a pause. It's a way to rest. It's a way to just self reflect and look around and go, oh, maybe I don't need to know right now. Can I give myself permission to not know? And the ego will battle that the whole time because it needs an identity, it needs to prove itself. So I guess where I'm going with this is that if we want to actually take a look at the power of the ego and how important it is to look at both sides, where it's keeping us elevated and strong, but where it's also keeping us small is that we find that place in the center, we find neutral and go, oh, maybe I don't need to know. And it's okay.

[Patrick Hanlon]

So the question one could ask is in the self reflection because we are both big on self reflection. We both do it and we coach it and we believe that that's what you need to do to be the best version of yourself. So the self reflection question could be, am I fighting to be right. Am I being a right fighter or am I seeking to grow? And that's an interesting question to ask ourselves in any given situation, you know, is, am I just fighting to be right? So in other words, is the ego saying, no, this is exactly who you are. This is exactly who you need to be. This is how it literally convinces us that this is all we've got. I'll share just like that. Quick thing that I'm going through right now is, you know, I was invited to be a chair on CEO on McKay CEO forums. Okay. So you and I are. I'm immersed in it, of course, and you're being the observer and, you know, supporting me as I go along on my journey. But as I'm stepping into a new role, there is a lot of my identity that is attached to being a business owner, being a coach, being a speaker, the real estate investment network, as a CEO, all of the things. But now I'm into a whole new, to me, a new level of who I'm surrounding myself with. I mean, I'm literally in amongst some chairs that have been CEOs of publicly traded multi billion dollar companies. Very accomplished individuals. You know, I'm not the oldest guy in the room, nor am I the smartest guy in the room. That's great. And I'm feeling really uncomfortable. And I realized that that discomfort that I'm feeling is because really my ego has an identity of who I am and I can play in this game. And I got good at doing these certain things. Now I'm going into the next level with dealing with other CEOs. I'm going to be facilitating groups of CEOs who are very accomplished. And I'm. I'm both excited about it, very excited about it, but I'm noticing and I'm consciously having to lean into my discomfort and just keep moving forward. So it's interesting. It's an interesting dynamic and I'm well supported. And man, oh man, the people that I'm being supported by are fricking brilliant. So anyways, I can understand, you know, like really my ego is that armor around me and I have to kind of shed it or I'm going to get myself, you know, in trouble.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Yeah, no kidding. When I think about it. And you know, we met Carrie and like some of the people that we're already starting to meet, like, I am so excited for you. And I'm excited for me too, because we're. It launches us into a new stratosphere of what's possible and the unknown. And to me, I love the unknown. Yeah, I love.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Yeah, I'm excited about it. I literally am. I feel like. I feel like I've been an apprentice for 40 years, and now it's time to take it and put it to work.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Well, you know what's really cool also about this is that you don't get to do what you're good at, which is coaching.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Like, J calls you the clarity coach and the. All the stuff. And you're not coaching. You're facilitating people that potentially could be smarter than you. And obviously, you know, we're in. In a stage where we want. I just want to bust open any restrictions that I have because I want to live into a future of what's possible, not what I know. Because if we're just going to keep doing what we know over and over and over again, we're going to get the same result. You know, that, to me, is, as they say, the definition of insanity. So what I'm also seeing is we're. We're bringing our education and our information and our knowledge to people in our businesses that are young than us and that are bumping into their egos and bumping into their identity and who they are. So I really think there's a balance in what we're talking about right now is that our. We're doing the work, we're busting through our own issues, but at the same time, we're supporting and facilitating people coming up behind us to make sure that, you know, they're going to get it on their own time. I get it. We're not going to control when people get things, but I see in our own businesses that we are supporting people in a. In a journey that's super rare. I don't know if I'm really starting to get it, is that in our businesses, whether it's in Edmonton or Rain or Skate Tech or whatever, is that we're creating a space for people to bump into their egos, and that's uncomfortable, and some of them might have to leave.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Well, that's the world of high performance. High performance as a result of low tolerances. We'll talk about that. But this is really about how do you align a team with. But not. But there's another part of it is that we're talking about. This is where I really see where that ego can be, that armor that is always on. And how can you bring yourself to drop that armor if it's all you've ever known and it protects you? It's an Interesting kind of dynamic when it comes to that thought process of identity and how ego wants to protect itself from kind of any exposure, doesn't want to be blamed, it doesn't want to be shamed, it doesn't want to be embarrassed. You know, it is going to tell you you're not good enough, you're not smart enough, you're not, you know, you're not good looking enough, whatever. It's going to be the whole good enough conversation or not good enough conversation, which is driven by ego. That's the ego protecting itself. Keeping you small in those cases or taking away. Don't be too cocky about what you got going on. You're not that smart. So anyways, it's just all very, very interesting as we go through it. But the whole point of it is that when you start to have these observations of yourself, then you can in fact lean into it, you can bust through it, you can drop the armor, you can help somebody else, or somebody else can help you drop the armor because they see things you don't see. They see your blind spots. Spots.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Yeah. And that's the thing, right, is that if we don't actually have the space to know, it's okay. And I mean, blind spots are called blind spots because they're blind spots. You know, you're not, you don't know that you're doing it. And I think protecting yourself or trying to continually present in a way that you think people will respect you because you're smart or because you're aggressive or because you know everything. But what about the opposite? You know, I've always found over the years, the people I'm most drawn to are the ones that are curious, the ones that are asking questions. I rarely, we rarely talk about ourselves in, in, you know, in groups or public. And we were at a party at Christmas time and I. Somebody asked me about what I do and I think probably in the first time in eight years that we've lived out here is like somebody asked me what I do for a living and it threw me off because what I do is generally get curious in what other people do and to really hear them and listen. And this person that I was talking to, Yass, he was so curious and I felt an interest that I haven't felt in a long time. And I think that was when you drop for me, when I dropped my guard or my need to just protect myself or not expose what it is that I do or who, who we are. I actually felt a curiosity from him. And I wonder if there's something in that when we drop our guard and can actually enter a situation or a conversation with allowing other people to be curious so we don't have to lead with, this is what I'm doing, and this is who I am, we can lead with. Huh? Thanks for being curious. Thanks for asking the question. That's interesting. I've never thought of this or something. And it is a skill set, but.

[Patrick Hanlon]

It'S a skill set to be curious. So in other words, you know, whoever that was that asked you that, they were also. They made you feel comfortable in how they were being curious, right? They weren't asking you what you do to measure you. They were genuinely curious about what you do. But, you know, you said that. It's interesting because I, of course, I brag about you all the time. You know, you're, you know, I, I jokingly say that you're my bling. I live my life vicariously through you, which is all true, and I'm very, very proud of you. And I look at your accomplishments and sometimes I wonder, how the hell is it she's doing all this? I live with her, for Christ's sakes. I sleep with her. What the hell? How come I don't know how she did, But I also realized that I like to boast a little about you because I get to hide behind that I don't have to talk about me. So that is an interesting dynamic in certain situations. Right, There you go. I myself out my ego out for hiding behind it. So I, I, that's just how that is. My ego keeping me small. So that's interesting. I just got to that now. How's that in real time? Real time.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

That's really cool. Because, you know, it's funny, one of the things that I've learned in business is that I rarely talk about myself, but I really empower and embellish the people around me. Not embellish, but. But really point out what they're brilliant at.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Of course. Yeah.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

And it's hard to do that because it's hard to teach people to do that because we're so trained or conditioned to try to, you know, sell ourselves. Sell ourselves, Right. It's like your 30 second elevator story and all this stuff. And I get that from a marketing standpoint. But when you have a team that you trust and you look at people, I mean, I look at the people around us, the brilliance that we have on our team, whether it's State Tech or Rain or, you know, our families, like, we have brilliant and amazing people around us. And if we're not going to fly, you know, fly their flags for them and they're not going to do it, then, then who's going to? Right?

[Patrick Hanlon]

We have to do it.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

We have to do it.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Yes, yes. So, okay, so the ego thrives on, and this is another point is our egos thrive on comparison and control, but it's our comparison, not somebody else comparing us. Although that could be happening. We, we want to control to the degree we can the narrative and we want to kind of really always be comparing ourselves. And that becomes part of the issue, especially today given social media and the instant gratification we can receive in that comparison or how shitty we can feel because we're not achieving nearly enough of those special moments in time. And so it measures our, our ego will measure our success based on that external validation, which is likely bullshit unless you know, you can, you can be, you can look like a genius to yourself or you're going to look like an absolute incompetent, blah, blah, blah on the other side of that if you get too carried away. So when we start to understand that our most true self worth comes from our intrinsic values that we live into and that we honor and that we're aware of and that we live those values as opposed to comparison. And I want to say we were literally, we were at an event just recently and there was some, I guess a former friends, very, I'm very respectful of them and they were a big part of our lives. But for, you know, those, those that relationship broke down and we don't talk to them anymore. Like they don't talk to us actually. But we find ourselves crossing paths occasionally. But I started to realize that at that event that in the past I was kind of like, what the fuck? Like what is it that we did? And then, but it's taken time. But I just realized I don't give a shit, as a matter of fact, I don't want to hang out with those people. And I'm quite frankly, I get it. We were friends and then we're not. Move on, people move on. And I go, well, I don't even align with what they're doing and who they are anymore. So I'm not making them wrong. As we've said many times, somebody else's values aren't wrong and yours are right, they're just not aligned. And I went, oh, I actually don't care and I should be thankful and don't try and force the river, the relational river.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Yeah, so let's just. Yeah, yeah, let Me just expand on that a little bit, cowboy, is that it's not that you don't care.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Oh, yeah. Because you do.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

You're a good person. It's that you can't care.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

At this point, because we are so on a different trajectory. It's not right or wrong. I respect and honor the people that we've crossed paths with over the years and who've left our life and we've left their lives, but it's never been intentional. It's not that we don't care. And honestly, when I get a chance to circle back and, you know, do what I can and, you know, I just. I'm not gonna, you know, play small or, Or. Or shy away and walk away or not talk to them when we run into them or whatever.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

But at this point, we can't care. Just like they can't care. Don't care, but they can't care.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Is it the word detachment? Right. It's. It's detaching from whatever judgment you have of them or of ourselves or whatever. It's because it's. They're on their journey, we're on our journey, and that's just the way things go. So it really is the art of ego detachment. You know, there's the title of your book, maybe there you go. You know, it. It really is, you know, and we have to detach from it. And I look at it and go, wow, have we ever grown. We've grown so much that those individuals don't fit into our life. But here's the point. Or not the point, not the point. But I think something for others to consider on this journey is how many relationships do you stay in? Or are you in that really don't serve you, that you don't align with their values, but your ego tells you the story that if you get out of that relationship, it's going to be, I don't know, costly. You're going to be judged, you're going to lose a bunch of friends, yet you're willing to at times be in relationship with those individuals, and it really doesn't serve you. You go, oh, my gosh. It's like you groan every time it comes to getting together with them. And then you have to question, why am I doing this? Why can't I let that go? And that's usually ego, self preservation. And along the way, you have an identity attached to it. That's me talking about psychology that I have no idea about. But it's just my observations for being around a Little bit, yeah.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

You got some gray hair on you, buddy. So you. You do have some credibility, you know, especially in my world, because you're that much older than me, you know, whatever. But ultimately, you're not wrong in this regard, is that when we have a relationship, you know, I been guilty of fighting for relationships that no longer work because I didn't want to let go or I didn't want to look like the bad guy. I remember when we first got married, every Sunday you would talk to your dad, which was hilarious. It was like three and four and five hours conversations.

[Patrick Hanlon]

I'm like, okay, hold it, hold it. Don't get carried away. It wasn't.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

It was a lot. And then. But what was so interesting about that? I did the same thing. I would go through my Rolodex back in the day before I had a cell phone, and I would call all the people that I hadn't talked to in a while just to touch base. And I was keeping the relationship going and going and going and going. I was rowing the boat.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Yeah.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

And then something happened. I don't know if we moved or something happened. And then I. I just didn't have the space or capacity to keep doing that. And the relationship started to subside. And then one or two of those people that I had tried to keep the relationship going because I was the one calling every day or every Sunday or whatever, and then I would run into them. They go, you stopped calling me. I mean, well, you know, the phone goes two ways, right? And I realized at that time what I was. And that was an ego play. I needed to keep those relationships going, and it was freaking exhausting. And when I needed to, you know, lay the paddle down in that case, and I stopped rowing the boat is they. They didn't. Wasn't reciprocal. And that was a huge lesson.

[Patrick Hanlon]

You know my line in that one, right. Because my dad and others would go. Because when we did that, when we quit rowing the boat, generally it was us making phone calls and reaching out.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Always. Yeah.

[Patrick Hanlon]

And so when we quit rowing the boat, when we quit making those phone calls, and then eventually we cross paths, or eventually we Christmas dinner. And they give that kind of passive aggressive, you know, I haven't talked to you. What am I your enemy? Or whatever comment they might hear. And I go, oh, really? I go, my phone didn't ring at this end. Is your phone broken? I would go equally passive aggressive back to them. My phone's fine, fine. I haven't received a call. Maybe yours is broken. You should check it Anyways, let's not digress. So the point of it is that we want to use ego to our benefit, and some would say use our ego as our servant, not as our master. So we then control our ego, which fuels our ambition. It can provide us the courage or help us embrace the courage we need and have the leadership. So I believe, and I totally believe this, I do my best to live it. I probably don't do a great job. But the best leaders have a strong but very flexible ego because they're aware of it. So in other words, they know when to be assertive and when to listen. That's, you know, the fundamental. You know, they have. What I try and practice is humble confidence. And I actually intentionally, at times, very consciously work on that. I don't have to so much. I think it just becomes a part of who I am. At least I believe that. And that's the feedback I've often got. So I then say, okay, that's. Actually. I'm fine with that. That's how I think is a good way to operate as a leader. So that's.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

That, you know, that's. There's a lot there. And, yeah, don't step over that. Because when you're aware. For me, when I'm aware, if. If I'm in my ego or if I'm. I'm in protection mode or operating from that place, there's actually a vibration or a tightness in my body that I get what I need to be right, or if I'm fighting to be right, I call that being a right fighter. And it's so damaging, I find, in relationship, and it's so damaging in business. And the humility that it takes to be aware means you have to step out and be the observer of how you're showing up, how you're occurring. Right? And if it's a blind spot or if it's something that's. That's going on, but I would rather fight for something. Like if we're. If we're arguing or whatever, I want to fight for something, not fight against you. Because to me, ego to ego, you know, I'm gonna win, right? Mine's bigger than yours, but whatever. Like, no, it's not. I'm just kidding. But I can feel it escalate. And it's almost like I have to climb on top of it and go, you know what? It's not worth it to tear down the intimacy or tear down the relationship, because this is what I find right now is the divisiveness in this in our society right now, you know, the politically and economically and all the things that are going on is I would rather want to seek first to understand where you're coming from than to be fully understood or fight to be right. So when you think about being in your ego or being driven to protect your ego, for me, I would rather, I don't know, I'd rather be wrong.

[Patrick Hanlon]

There's a couple things. You know, the question I think that is a great question to ask ourselves is how can we use our ego to serve our purpose? You know, which we know our purpose, we have our mission and we do our best to live it. And, you know, how can your ego serve you to live your purpose rather than live your insecurities? And that is often what happens. I know that, you know, as a coach and you know, with many clients, I've been called blunt. And so if I see the path of somebody being in their ego, I will literally say, you are so in your ego right now. And if the response is, no, I'm not, like, fuck, what the fuck are you talking about? I go, okay, now that's a confirmation that you are so in your ego. But most people, I don't say, I don't want to generalize. Many people don't understand that. So if you have that self reflection and you find yourself being that person, you know, somebody says you're in your ego, if you immediately, if your immediate answer is denial, like I am not. Before you say those words, take a breath and consider what that individual is telling you. Consider that maybe ego is driving you. Maybe you do have that armor on that's either trying to elevate you or have you play small, protect or just be in survival. Yes. Feeling attacked, right, will put you in your ego. Okay, so as we wind down the maybe the clothing closing thought, it's ego's not a bad thing. You know, we often say your ego is not your amigo. I would say make your ego your amigo. Don't try and eliminate. Make your ego work for you by gaining the awareness of when you are in it. You know, there's an analogy that says it is ego's like fire. It can warm you, can guide you, it can actually light the way, or it can consume you and destroy you if you leave it unchecked. And of course, in the world of narcissism, we can really connect ego to narcissism. And narcissism is one of those things that is driven by an out of control ego that has its handle on you. Again, I'm not a psychologist or a psychiatrist. I just have made these observations over the years, and I think I'm on the right path. Always looking to learn more and unpack more. So having said all that, make your ego your amigo. How's that for a finish?

[Stephanie Hanlon]

I like that. And I like the fact that you said that maybe we could actually unpack what narcissism is or what it means down the road. Because I'm finding when people are defending themselves, especially right now, there's a place where there's a narcissism factor. And I didn't understand narcissism until the last couple of years, but maybe one day we could do a podcast on unpacking narcissism.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Okay, I think we could expand on this. Not in this episode. Maybe the next episode we'll talk about some real kind of potentially real life examples that can take it to the next level. I think that ego is probably the one thing that gets in people's way of achieving, having accomplishment, accomplishing all that they want. And I think it's a really important conversation to unpack. You know, we consider back to Ryan Holiday's book Ego is the Enemy. It was a bestseller for a reason, and to this day, it's still one of those popular books that I remember somebody, by the way, I said, you need to read Ego is the Enemy. And so they read it, they came back, whatever it was, a couple of weeks later, and go, I read that book, Ego the Enemy by that Ryan Holiday guy. And he goes, I go, yes, I hated that book. Like, it makes no sense. I go, okay, so that's. You read it again. There's a message in there for you. Okay, that's all I got. Stephanie, thank you.

[Stephanie Hanlon]

Oh, my gosh, that was fun.

[Patrick Hanlon]

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. If you found value in the podcast, please take the time to rate and review and share with others. Share with your friends as it is my goal to always improve and to provide the highest value for you, the listener. If you have any comments, suggestions, or questions you'd like answered, please email [e-mail] that's CEO E I N Canada.com I look forward to hearing from you. And until next time, Patrick. Oh.