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The Everyday Millionaire and Mindset Matters Podcast
Mindset Matters - Episode #193 - Partner With Your Ego: How to Stop Battling Yourself
00:44:54
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- [00:00]
Patrick Hanlon
Foreign. Welcome to this episode of the everyday Millionaire Mindset matters podcast where I'm joined by my wife, Olympic mental performance coach Stephanie Hanlon. Francie. In these episodes, Stephanie and I have a conversation about the different aspects of what we refer to as mindset matters because we believe that for those who are awake, we are living in and through the most impactful time in, in history. Your view of the world is the filter for how you will experience the evolution and changing dynamics of it. Our intention is to provide you with ideas, nutritious food for thought, and some tools that you can use to help you in being your greatest self and living your best life. Listen in, enjoy. Welcome to Mindset Matters, where clarity creates momentum, momentum drives velocity, and this is your weekly, we're going to call it our weekly practice in mine. Shui mastery. Feng shui for the mind. Stephanie, welcome.
- [01:08]
Stephanie Hanlon
Hey, hon, that was a great intro.
- [01:10]
Patrick Hanlon
There we go. Hey, changing it up, getting into some new language, having some fun with it. So we're talking ego today. And, you know, we kicked around a couple of titles. You know, I thought mastering your ego and ego mastery, and you came up and made a really good point. We ever, ever master our ego. The best we can do is partner with it. But from my perspective, since we've been on this journey of understanding ego and it's such a big topic and it's so important just being aware of what's making and driving some of my decisions, how I'm viewing the world, so much of it is by ego. So there's an opening quote I'm going to use. The ego says, I am what I have, I am what I do, and I'm what people think of me. How's that for opening code?
- [02:06]
Stephanie Hanlon
That's so true.
- [02:08]
Patrick Hanlon
And none of it's true. That is absolutely not who you are. So to give an opening context, you know, we think that maybe ego is a bit of a. Call it a shape shifter. You know, the quote around what we often see, what we're going to get into is tapping into some experts. Now, really, as I've done research, there is such an inconsistency of how proverbial or whatever the word is, you know, masters in the world of personal and professional development and in the space of what is ego all about? So, so here it is in kind of an opening. Sometimes it demands to be right. I say that ego always demands to be right. Not sometimes, other times it pleads to be loved. Yes, a hundred percent. And often it's doing both at the same time. So to Unpack the kind of dual drive we're going to look at and talk to some of the. Not talk to. But I've researched a bunch of the experts. So I want to unpack what the experts say and then let's see our view of that world. What's your thoughts?
- [03:15]
Stephanie Hanlon
Well, I love the fact that you're. We're, you know, talking about experts because, you know, for me, this is not a topic I'm even an expert in on any level. I know I've battled my ego a lot for many, many years, you know, because I had to actually come up and define or redefine, you know, the who I am being in the context of my life, knowing that I wanted to be the best in the world at something. So, you know, really trying to find a swim lane that I could do that and not kind of get all full of myself or too big for my britches, as my mom used to say.
- [03:49]
Patrick Hanlon
Yeah, your mom used to say that. My dad used to say that.
- [03:52]
Stephanie Hanlon
Really?
- [03:53]
Patrick Hanlon
Yes, yes. That's part of that generation. Okay, so let's talk about it. So the point is, is that as I research this more and more, there is one thing that is consistent. First off, I want to say that we know a lot about ego. We've done other episodes on ego, and to be quite honest, we're pretty on point with our views of ego and what it means and why it's important to understand our ego because it does shift how you view the world, but it also can shift how you show up, how you hear things, how you see things. And ultimately it can take the edge or the sharp edge off of disagreements, for example. It can really get you grounded at times of where there's chaos and stress. So I want to go through what some of the other experts have said, just a kind of a paragraph, if you will. And then we can kind of unpack that conversation from their perspective and our perspective. In our experience, the one thing that I have discovered, and I'm going to probably roll out four, five or six different experts, quote, unquote. You'll be. Most of you will be familiar with all of the names that I'm going to go through, but the one thing I've got is that there's only one thing that is consistent through all of their descriptions. And we'll get to that in a minute. So I'm going to start with Eckhart Tolle. You ready? Ready. Hit me. Okay. His line is presence over personality. So Tole views the ego as a false identity constructed through Roles and memories. This is important. Memories are past. A mental fiction that clings to form. According to him, the ego is addicted to being right. We made that observation and made that comment many times because it feels threatened by uncertainty. It also craves being loved because it needs external validation to sustain its illusion of self worth. Tolle invites us to stop identifying with the voice in our heads and instead shift into presence, the only place the ego cannot survive. This opens up a big conversation, I think. So what happens when you no longer need to be right or need to be loved to feel whole?
- [06:13]
Stephanie Hanlon
That's a great question. And I think because I love Eckhart Tolle's work, the Power of Now and, and some of the other books that he's written. And we actually met him in Vancouver, I don't know if you remember, we were at a restaurant, Hotsworth, I think downtown Vancouver. And, and he was there with his wife, partner. And I actually went out and got my picture taken with him.
- [06:31]
Patrick Hanlon
You did?
- [06:32]
Stephanie Hanlon
I was like, I fangirled, I fangirled Eckhart Tolle. Anyway, he's, he's small. He's like little. Anyway, it doesn't matter. My point is, is that what I learned from reading those book, the Power of now and understanding Presence, is that our memories are designed for self preservation. And when you go back in your memory, you're either the hero or the victim. Most of the time you're the hero. You can, you know, we go into our memory and our ego wants us to say, okay, well, how were you right in this situation? You know, you were hurt or you hurt somebody, but how were you right? And our memories, we pull our memories into the, to the present moment to make ourselves right. And they're designed for self preservation. And that's one of the things I really learned when I was doing my kind of my inner ego work is that if I'm only the hero in or the warrior in my memories, then I don't ever look at the other side where I may have been responsible for maybe hurting someone's feelings or not taking responsibility for some damage or comment that I made that I maybe have to go back and put the correction in for. But anyway, that's my Eckhart Tolle story.
- [07:37]
Patrick Hanlon
Okay, so the thing about ego is that we do know is that it wants to protect itself. So back to something though, that you said, which is if you go back, you're often the hero in your memory. But I don't know if I agree. I think often we go back in our memory and we're victims. Potentially something happened to us. Often that's the story. Or we did something where we made a mistake and we're blaming ourselves, whatever that might be. So we hang on to that, justifying.
- [08:06]
Stephanie Hanlon
The actions or justifying or justifying.
- [08:09]
Patrick Hanlon
But the ego then says, you're right, you're right, you are a victim. You're right, this happened to you. You're right, you are a loser. You're right. Like it, it goes through the whole, I guess, the array of things that we say in our mind to confirm that you're right. And it relies on past history in order to confirm that with us.
- [08:32]
Stephanie Hanlon
Oh, yeah, and it finds proof. It'll find proof. Our minds are. They're going to find proof, depending on what we're focusing on. And if we're going back and we're being a victim, we will find proof in our memories. Hundred percent.
- [08:43]
Patrick Hanlon
Yep, 100%. Because to the next expert, Dr. Gabor Mate, the ego has survival strategies. Okay, so Matei offers his compassionate view of the ego is what he calls. It's not as a villain, but as a child trying to protect itself. It has to survive. He teaches that the ego's patterns are often responses to childhood environments where love was conditional or safety was compromised. Those are actual. He doesn't use the word trauma in that description, but responses to childhood environments where love was conditional or safety was compromised. Now we know that one. There's some trauma in all that, but I want to keep going. The need to be right becomes a defense against shame or humiliation. The need to be loved is rooted in early attachment where love meant survival. So from this lens, ego isn't an enemy to eliminate, but a part of ourselves to understand and to eventually outgrow. So the question in this becomes, what is your ego still trying to protect you from? From.
- [09:59]
Stephanie Hanlon
Yeah, Gabor Mate, his work now in, you know, currently in the late 2000 and twenties is, has become. Come full circle. You know, he, and he was instrumental in a lot of my learning and psychology and he had done the Hoffman process years ago as well and had some interesting realizations, I think, from watching his journey about ego and where it is designed to keep us small and to keep us as our inner child, not growing up, not allowing our intellect and not allowing our spiritual selves to, to really embrace the growth and the development of our inner selves. And I think that's what I love about Gabor Mate's work, is that he, he sees it from all angles, but from the lens of the inner child is really to me, that's where I think a lot of healing lives.
- [10:49]
Patrick Hanlon
Well, he makes it, he says something I agree with. The ego isn't an enemy to eliminate. And this is the thing that ego has such a negative connotation we've said many times before, is a lot of people attach ego to, you know, they're full of themselves and arrogance and those kinds of things. And while it can be that part of it, I like what he says here. It isn't an enemy to eliminate, but a part of ourselves to understand and to eventually outgrow. And for me, that's what really drove this episode and the research into, well, gosh, this is how we see ego. Is there a better way to share it with our listeners? Is there a better way to present it? The question we ask ourselves, what is your ego still trying to protect you from? And so if you've got a secret, if you've got a shame that you don't want to bring forward, I mean, it'll try and protect you from ever having that exposure. But what that shows up as sometimes is how you act or how you react to certain scenarios can come out pretty sideways. And you may even question it afterwards, go, why the hell they say that? Why did I react that way? And if you don't really take the time to unpack that particular reaction, that feeling that, you know, that chaos or the whatever you blew up in a, in a conversation and you walk away going, not feeling good about it. I don't know why I reacted that way. I don't know what's going on. We, you know, we put, well, I must have a lot of stress, you know, the job, it's my wife, it's the kids, it's the dog, whatever, right? We, we deflect rather than investigate and ask ourselves what is underlying what, what was the button that got pushed in that conversation where it came off the rails?
- [12:33]
Stephanie Hanlon
Well, maybe it's, you know, it's too painful to do that self reflection and to take responsibility for that because it could, you know, pull on that thread and maybe it takes you all the way back to some sort of childhood trauma. And I mean, we're not psychologists, so I don't think it's really appropriate for us to, to dig into that. But just as regular people, you know, I've had situations where I've been in a, you know, thinking you're in a regular conversation with somebody and you walk away and they completely had a different interpretation of what you said because you had, I had no idea, for example, that it triggered something that reminded another person of what their mother said to them when they were four. You know, so we as just normal human beings, we don't. We don't know that about each other. So, you know, when you think about our egos protecting us in that regard, I'm wondering if, hey, maybe we should do a conversation or a podcast on narcissism, too.
- [13:25]
Patrick Hanlon
Let's do this episode first.
- [13:27]
Stephanie Hanlon
Okay.
- [13:28]
Patrick Hanlon
Okay.
- [13:29]
Stephanie Hanlon
I'm all fired up now.
- [13:30]
Patrick Hanlon
Okay, well, you're fired up, so I want to get to this thing, something you said, which is, you know, it's too painful. But here's the thing about it. If we're operating on top of those things, if we don't take advantage of or if we don't take a minute to kind of self assess. And yeah, it might be traumatic, it might be painful, but what is that stopping you? Where is that your block to having the life you want, having the relationships you want going forward? What are you operating on top of? So, yeah, it could be traumatic, but when you unpack it, when you uncover it, when you collapse it, because you've now identified it, that's the thing about it is once you identify it, it's weight, you know, then you can just collapse it. Then it just becomes a non thing anymore. It's like, say it out loud. Oh, that's what that is. Oh, my gosh. And then you can let it go. And that is actually setting you up for that momentum. We talk about the momentum from clarity and then the velocity from that clarity. So I think that it serves us all to take a minute when those things do show up and reflect on them and understand. I'll tell you what. You know, several months ago, whatever it was, where I really started to understand that the ego needs to be right, that changed a lot of how I hear people, how I view certain situations, even how I show up. And in the conversations that I have, except for with you, I can't help it. I'm just always right.
- [15:01]
Stephanie Hanlon
And I let you be, babe. I let you be right.
- [15:04]
Patrick Hanlon
You did such a good job. Okay, let's keep moving on. Let's see what Michael Singer has to say.
- [15:09]
Stephanie Hanlon
Oh, I love Michael Singer.
- [15:11]
Patrick Hanlon
Yeah. So it's the voice that won't shut up. Singer reframes the ego.
- [15:16]
Stephanie Hanlon
That's me. Is that what you're saying?
- [15:19]
Patrick Hanlon
Oh, you're my ego. Okay. Singer reframes the ego as the inner narrator. That incessant voice that's trying to control reality by judging everything and everyone. This voice insists on being Right again. That's the third guy that says it insists on being right. And the Dord, because it believes peace comes from control and approval. Ah, control and approval. Kind of goes back to needing to be loved. Right? But ironically, the ego's search for peace creates chaos. So in Singer's work, he challenges us to stop believing everything we think.
- [16:01]
Stephanie Hanlon
Yeah, I love that line. Say that again, cowboy. Don't step over that. Stop believing everything you think.
- [16:08]
Patrick Hanlon
Yes, because our emotion drives how we think. Often, by the way, we get emotional. We make decisions based on emotion and our feeling. And by the way, it's wrong. And so we have to consider. So stop believing everything we say think. Stop believing that every feeling you have is real and it's true, and it's going to drive how you think. So the practice is simple but not easy. We've said that many times. But notice the voice. Notice the internal dialogue, awareness, the thinking about what you're thinking about. So notice the voice, but don't follow it. So this opens the doorway to a question, perhaps, is that can you be okay even when you're not right and even when you're not liked?
- [17:00]
Stephanie Hanlon
Oh, yeah. Put a pin in that and think about it. You know, I was telling somebody the other day, is that one of the things that. That I've really. And I think I've said this before is. Is one of the things that I check in on all the time is what if I'm wrong? You know, if. If I'm fighting, there's a feeling I get in my body kind of up and tight in my chest when I'm fighting for something, or I'm. I get my hooks into something or I'm. I'm really. And. And you've seen me do this. I just. I just gotta do this. I gotta do this. I gotta do this. I gotta do this. And I'm starting to recognize that in my body. And I'm asking myself more and more, well, what if I don't need to do that? What if I'm wrong? And to me, that softens the energy around kind of the. The. The movement of trying to hang on to being right so that, you know, circles back and what was the second part?
- [17:48]
Patrick Hanlon
And are you okay if you're not right and you're not liked?
- [17:52]
Stephanie Hanlon
Oh, yeah. See that? To me, I don't care if I'm liked. I've learned.
- [17:56]
Patrick Hanlon
Yes, you do. Yes. Yes. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. No, you do too.
- [17:59]
Stephanie Hanlon
No, I only care that you like me.
- [18:01]
Patrick Hanlon
Okay, Listen, I'm right, okay? In this particular conversation, I'm right.
- [18:06]
Stephanie Hanlon
No, you know what I learned that. What? It's no, maybe not like, but it's being willing to be misunderstood. That's kind of where I know because I can be so socially awkward and sometimes I talk until I try to talk things out because I can't get to it right away. So it looks awkward. And I think people shut down and stop listening and whatever. But yeah, I think there's a. I need to be like a drive or to fit in because you know, as sometimes when wanting to be the best in the world at something, there's only one of those or one of me. And I'm not actually going to have a group people to hang out with until I find other people that want to be in the best in the world and what they want to be. So there is a loneliness factor to that. So I think that's not the collapse. I think the conflict is the needing to be liked but at the same time wanting to be my best self, the best version of myself. Which means I'm going to have to stand alone sometimes.
- [19:03]
Patrick Hanlon
Well, let's just keep going down this path a little bit. I was going to save it to later but I think it's an important conversation. This goes back to are you, you, Are you? Okay, even when you're not liked. But here's. Let's. Let's wrap some kind of. Put some meat on that particular bone. We all want to be liked, but we want to be liked for who we are. The problem that we face is our ego has fear of being judged, of not being liked. So sometimes we put on these, I don't know, masks, if you will. We'll call them that Personas.
- [19:36]
Stephanie Hanlon
Personas.
- [19:36]
Patrick Hanlon
Personas where we're not really being true to who we are because we're afraid that if we show up the way we really, we're not going to be liked. We're not going to be approved, we're not going to fit in. The courage is to, number one, go through the process of self discovery to really understand what your values are, your willingness to stand for those values. And I mean our observation and I think that, you know, I know myself growing, you know, like not just growing up, but just as. Even as a mature adult there was a place where I was just not comfortable in my own skin. And the desire to be, be liked outweighed some of the, I guess, desire to just show up and be who I really am. Being fearful of judgment or of not being liked. The courage is to show up in all of. Whatever you think your weirdness is, thereby attracting those people who align with your weirdness, whatever description you have of your weirdness, as opposed to fitting in, as opposed to not being true to who you really are.
- [20:46]
Stephanie Hanlon
You know, it's really funny. Sorry, interrupt you. I don't want to step on your word, son, but I do. Growing up, and even not so far back in my past, is that I was in relationship with certain people who were one way when they were with me and a completely different way when they were with somebody else. And what would get awkward is when we were in the same room or at the same party or at the same function or sitting around the same dinner table, and the person didn't know who they needed to be because, right, they had so many different faces they were wearing or Personas that they had, or they were in different groups trying to fit in with different groups. And all of a sudden all their worlds collided and they. And then, you know what's interesting about that? It wasn't the people that were rejecting this per particular person I'm thinking about. She had already rejected herself because she was giving up her core values and who she was being and being different to fit into different groups. And then, boom, all her worlds collided and none of us knew who she was. It was so interesting.
- [21:52]
Patrick Hanlon
Yeah, well, interesting as an observer. What was going on, do you think, for her? Who knows what was going on in her mind. She may not even been aware there might be.
- [22:01]
Stephanie Hanlon
Well, I know eventually that she had to leave my life because who she was being with me was so inauthentic that she couldn't hold the mask up anymore.
- [22:10]
Patrick Hanlon
We've had a few of those over the years, right?
- [22:12]
Stephanie Hanlon
Yeah. And I gotta wonder, where am I that. You know, I mean, have I been that with people? You know, And I. I go back and I think, okay, is that why certain people left my life or. Or did I just evolve and we just evolved separately and, you know, But I think there's something to be said to have that little bit of inner dialogue and questioning yourself.
- [22:30]
Patrick Hanlon
What a journey. Okay, we're going to talk about Carl. How do you pronounce his last name?
- [22:35]
Stephanie Hanlon
Young.
- [22:36]
Patrick Hanlon
Young. Not Jung Young. Right. Okay. So in his world, the ego is a gateway to the self. For Jung, the ego is not inherently bad, it's just limited. It's the I that helps us function, but it often pretends to be the whole truth. So what Carl says is that in his work, it's to integrate the ego with the unconscious to meet our Shadow reclaim the parts of ourselves we've disowned and moved toward wholeheartedness or wholeness. And the ego's need to be right is a way of avoiding the unknown. It's hunger to be loved often masks deeper feelings of unworthiness. Jung's teaching invite us to explore what part of our identity are we defending and what's waiting to be reintegrated if you stopped. This is really deep. That's what Carl is known for, is how deep.
- [23:41]
Stephanie Hanlon
I know he's like the grandfather of psychology, right? Like him and a couple other dudes, but he's the one that I think I resonate the most with is Jung.
- [23:51]
Patrick Hanlon
Okay, so what's your comments on this? To meet our shadow. I. And I'm. I'm. I can't go down on that topic. I can't get into the topic of shadow self because I'm not, I haven't, I'm not familiar enough with it. I'm familiar with the thought process, but I can't speak to it. But I do. What's your thoughts on reclaim the parts of ourselves that we've disowned and move towards wholeness? Any comments on that one?
- [24:18]
Stephanie Hanlon
I don't know that to me, you know, when I think about it in the study over the years that I've done in psychology and performance psychology and is the rejection of ourself. The parts of ourselves that we don't think are, you know, will serve us going forward. We don't feel we'll fit in, we don't feel are worthy. The parts of ourselves that we're ashamed of, you know, that's sort of the shadow self, you know, the, the part of ourselves that we're in denial of, that, that we don't feel will be accepted, you know, And I think part of that with the shadow work and bringing, bringing the shadow, you know, into the light. I mean, think about it. When people think about bringing your light, you know, just, just being the, the biggest, brightest light you can be in the room, the dark, you know, the shadow kind of disappears. And I think that's why some people will, will just deny it. And for me, bringing pieces of the unloved parts of myself or the shadow self or whatever back into who I am, to me feels like the truth. It feels like moving towards wholeness, moving towards full acceptance. And I think that's why, you know, life is such a, an interesting journey is that when we start to bring those parts of us back into ourselves with grace and forgiveness and going, wow, you Know, why was I rejecting that side of myself for so long when it really could have empowered me? That could have brought me strength in my individuality, in my way of being. That could have brought me strength instead of keeping myself so small and needing to be liked, because I didn't want people to see my dark side. I didn't want people to see my shadow, my insecurity, my shame. But when you start, for me, when I started folding that in, and it started, you know, years ago, in my late 20s when I started doing that work, is that taking a look at it, you know, and say, you know what? I don't have to hang on to this piece and bring it forward, but I don't have to be ashamed of it anymore. You know, I can put it in my journal, I can forgive myself and I can move on, but I don't have to deny it and be like this fractured human being that is running around, you know, needing to. For acknowledgement. Acknowledgement, acknowledgement. And then numbing myself or, you know, putting myself with people who only propped me up. So I think bringing the shadow forward or bringing the dark side in and not. Not going through the process of self rejection, like, to me, that's the damage of, of that work, is the self rejection.
- [26:48]
Patrick Hanlon
He asks an interesting question, which is, what part of your identity are you defending? Oh, yeah, and it's interesting is that to put a specific on it, an example, I don't know, but I think that this goes back to what are you defending? So, for example, we may use the line. I've used this line many times over the years, just the way I am. And you defend that. So we happen to know people, we see often people that we've worked with that are really in their ego and they have no idea, even if you call them out on it, they have no idea even what that means. But they're so busy defending their identity, making it right, even though it's so apparent that it's not working for them, nor is it really truly who they are. They fight for it, though.
- [27:43]
Stephanie Hanlon
Yeah. So I guess we could talk about that also being a blind spot, right?
- [27:47]
Patrick Hanlon
Yes, well, sure, it could be that, but. But I'm going to go back because here's. It goes back to what I just said a little while ago on. When we were talking, when we kind of talked about Michael Singer, I think it was. The point is, is what is waiting for you to be reintegrated if you stop.
- [28:06]
Stephanie Hanlon
Yeah.
- [28:07]
Patrick Hanlon
So quit defending it. Examine it. Open up to it. Your ego doesn't need to be right. That's the defending part. And imagine where it could take you if you stopped, you follow where you get to really lean into who you truly are.
- [28:25]
Stephanie Hanlon
But how do you do that? Like, how do you know for you, hun, how do you know if you're in your ego? And how do you know that? Like if I, like I know when you're in your ego, I can feel it. I know when I'm in my ego and sometimes you have to point it out to me. And if I'm defending something or an opinion or something and you're. And when you call someone out and say, you know, I think you're really in your ego right now, it can just explode. Like it can just blow up the entire conversation. Because again, the ego doesn't want to be found out. Right? This is just the way I am. This is my ego. And so my question to you is, how do you know if you're in your ego? Do you know?
- [29:02]
Patrick Hanlon
I don't know that. I, I think it comes from a series of questions that we ask ourselves.
- [29:08]
Stephanie Hanlon
No, I'm asking you personally as my going through that.
- [29:11]
Patrick Hanlon
And so I go through the question of observing my emotional state in any given situation. If it, if I'm being triggered, you know, if I've got some charge that's showing up, I'm. I'm having my own self talk is around, am I fighting to be right? How else can I view this? Because we talk a lot about perspective and perception and you know, so when I feel like if, you know, if I, if I think it's my ego driving me, one of the kind of ways that I work around, that I try and work around is to put myself in the other person's shoes, to see their perspective so I can understand their perception and that can shift. One thing it does for me when I look at it from that, because I'm very, being very reflective in those moments is it takes the edge off things. I don't get into the, you know, the state of, you know, being angry, you know, that is really a big shift for me.
- [30:14]
Stephanie Hanlon
Yeah, thanks for that. I have noticed the difference. Especially, you know, sometimes when I'm listening to you talk to clients or staff or friends or whatever, even, you know, family is. There was a time where I would see you defend yourself and need to be right, where you couldn't actually even hear what the other person was saying. And to see you now take that time to be reflective and to hear people differently, I think to me is huge personal Growth. I mean, I don't know if I have that skill yet or if I'm as good as you are, but I have seen a shift. But to the point in the question that I asked you is how do you know you're in your ego? How do I know when I'm in my ego? For me, I usually bump into myself. Like I hurt myself. I twist my ankle. I, you know, I bump the mirror of the vehicle I'm in. Like there's something physical that happens. That now I recognize that. Oh, okay. Where am I in my ego? Where am I not being fully aware? Where am I not being fully present to what's going on?
- [31:15]
Patrick Hanlon
Well, so let's just keep going on this conversation because I other thing that I look at is what am I trying to control? Because the ego wants to control. And, you know, there's no point in me. For example, I'll use an extreme right. I can be pissed off at the politicians and at the government, but I gotta. I have absolutely no control over any of that. That just is the way the government operates. It is the way those leaders operate. It is what's going on in the world is what's going on in the world. It's up to me, I think, to manage my emotion around it, manage my thought. Otherwise, it owns me, you know, I mean, it doesn't matter. I can hate somebody individually, I can't, because I don't even use the word hate. But my point is, is that I'll use that as an example. I can hate somebody and they may have no clue about that. So who's that hurting? Just me. We know that. Right. So it's no different. Is the ego's need to be right is also when we look at the dis. Ease and how that can manifest physically, you know, with different. Different ailments. So I look at it also from that perspective of, you know, am I needing to be right? For sure, That's. That's always one. But the other one is, is that am I thinking that I can control something or am I angry that I can't control it? Because ego wants to control. You know, that's all part of the being right. Okay. Did we beat that one up enough? We got one more here. At least one more.
- [32:49]
Stephanie Hanlon
Okay, go.
- [32:49]
Patrick Hanlon
Hit me. We got a couple more. Two more. Okay. Richard Rohr, I'm not familiar with him. At R R O H R R.
- [32:56]
Stephanie Hanlon
O H R. No, not familiar.
- [32:58]
Patrick Hanlon
Okay. False self versus true self. Rohr draws from Christian mysticism, calls the ego the false self. The Mask we wear to earn approval. Control. Oh, guess. Look at that. Control outcomes and play the game of success. The need to be right is the ego. Now, that's as every single expert so far has shone a light on the need to be right. Then the other one the ego is, is control. It's brought up again and trying to maintain certainty in a world that feels unstable. So this is the other thing that I do. Back to the question you asked me. And as this is how it's showing up, I can feel a lot of overwhelm and a lot of chaos at times, just because of what we got on our plate and all the things I don't. I try not to complain about it, but at times it's like, holy crap, it's an avalanche of things and it's the overwhelm. And then I have my own methodology, my own way of just getting grounded and pushing all the. All those things away, realizing that they'll all get done in due course, and it's not all happening at once. Don't look at the top of the mountain. Just look at the next step. That's how I kind of do that. So the need to be right is ego. Trying to maintain certainty in a world that feels unstable, chaotic. The need to be loved is the false self's attempt to fill a hole only the true self can satisfy. Rohr's perspective is especially powerful in midlife. Oh, gosh. Well, are we past midlife? I guess we are. At least I am. When people begin to question whether their roles they've performed are truly who they are. I get that one. We've talked about that one a lot. A question is, yourself is the self you're showing the world the self you actually are? We talk a lot about that. And that really is the game, isn't it? Do you have the courage to show up and be your most authentic self number one? Do you know who your most authentic self is? Or are you just confused with your own identity? Because that's easy to have happen, especially in the past five years of this polarization and divisiveness and DEI and QRT and all this that's going on. I mean, how do you figure out who you even are in this world?
- [35:29]
Stephanie Hanlon
Well, I think that's the point, right? When you don't know who you are, you're much easier to control, right? Because you could swing to the masses and you swing to the other side. Where am I going to fit in here? And I want to be included here. So I think that's sort of what is counting on. And that's why, you know, I think our work is so important. And the work with skaters and athletes and business people is just determining who you are and what you value. So, you know, my mom always used to say is that if you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything.
- [35:58]
Patrick Hanlon
Of course. Yes, that's so true. Okay, so Brene Brown. We both have been quite. We followed Brene a lot over the years. We agree with a lot of her stuff. Not all of her stuff. There's parts of. See, Brene, to me is, you know, she's shifted and changed, but that's a different conversation. So Brene bound. The armor of ego doesn't actually. The armor of ego. That's her phrase. The armor of ego. Doesn't use the word ego. She doesn't use the word ego. It's often in a spiritual sense, but she names it implicitly in her work on shame, vulnerability, and connection. She sees ego as armor, the set of behaviors we use to avoid feeling exposed. Okay, so that's actually in alignment with what we're saying. We need to be right. Ah, here it comes again. To avoid judgment, we need to be love. To avoid rejection. But both are driven by fear. So Brown's research invites a more grounded, relational approach. When we drop the armor, we become real. This goes back to what I've said a number of times already on this episode. Do we have the courage to show up and be truly who we are? So what does your armor look like and what is it really trying to protect? Now, certainly there's, you know, if somebody's listening this, they're going, well, yeah, I'm not going to walk into some place I've never been and not have some. I guess you're going to show up in a certain way. You're going to be a little more protective. I think this speaks to what is the armor that you're putting on. How does it show up when you're in those scenarios where it isn't about being courageous? It's like getting to know the audience, getting to know the circumstances, getting to know the room.
- [37:46]
Stephanie Hanlon
Kind of read the room, cowboy.
- [37:48]
Patrick Hanlon
Read the room, read the room, dial it back or turn it up or whatever it might be, you know, so there is some subtleties that we have with. But that doesn't mean that we're not being true to who we are. It doesn't mean we're not being fully authentic. It just means that, you know, if you love to dance, you know, maybe walking into church and Breaking out and dance might not be even. That is who you are. You know, you kind of, that may be. I don't know if that's, that's kind of probably a shitty example. But what does your armor look like? That's the question we ask ourselves. So how do you show up and then are you wearing different armor in different circumstances? Or is there an always an underlying who you are that you're okay with how people see you and you're comfortable with that. And as a matter of fact, you're not going to hide behind any of that armor. You'll be appropriate when it, you know, in any given conversation. But you're going to show up and we, while we. This, this past weekend, think about this, Stephanie. This past weekend, Canada Day, we're going to do. I'm supposed to do a little kind of, what do you call it? Speech or whatever. And somebody had asked me to acknowledge a party. We'll call it that. And I said, and I don't really want to do that. I don't believe it. Like, I don't follow that DEI process. I'm not in that environment. So we gave it to the actual, we said to the mc, how about you read this? And he went, no fucking way. I'm done. I'm not doing that. Yep, it's. I don't care, I don't agree with it. I'm not reading it, so forget it. If that pisses somebody off, so be it. Now he's older, wiser, wealthier, doesn't care, doesn't give a. You know, but you, you follow what I'm saying is, is that, you know, so how do you deal with those particular circumstances? Are you willing to compromise your values to not be judged by a group? Ah, ego wants to be right. It wants to control. Any thoughts on that before we wind this whole thing down?
- [39:56]
Stephanie Hanlon
Yeah, I think I'm kind of on the same page as the MC is that, you know, please don't compel my speech. Don't make me say things I'm not going to say because I'm not going to. I would rather be rejected or unliked rather than to not speak my truth when were. I would rather shut up than lie or to have to admit something that I don't, I, I don't think is true to fit in with the group or to your point, the whole dei esg, all the stuff F, Y, J, K, L, M, N, O, P. I don't know all the things. But I think to your point, I heard you have this conversation with this gentleman this weekend. And I said, no. I said, and Patrick, you said, should I do? And I went, oh, no. He said, you do it, Patrick. No, it's against my values. And I went, yep, it's against our values. I'm not, I'm not going to support that. And you know, we're going to piss some people off. And that's really, you know, too bad.
- [40:50]
Patrick Hanlon
But ultimately the good news is if we did, we don't know about it, we didn't hear about it. So it's all good.
- [40:56]
Stephanie Hanlon
Because you know what? That's about them.
- [40:58]
Patrick Hanlon
Yeah.
- [40:58]
Stephanie Hanlon
You know, and if you're going to be offended, I mean, I can't. With one of my most favorite lines, and I've been saying this and on all my brochures and everything, is that no one can hurt you without your permission. No one can offend you without your permission. Just because I said something you don't like doesn't mean I've offended you. It means maybe you're offended, but I didn't offend you.
- [41:21]
Patrick Hanlon
Yeah.
- [41:21]
Stephanie Hanlon
I'm just being myself. And if, if being myself offends you, then take yourself out of my sphere because I'm just going to keep doing what I do, connect to my, my purpose, move my life forward, do the best I can. And that's all I can do.
- [41:36]
Patrick Hanlon
The old case of sticks and stones. Yeah. Means will never hurt you. Okay, so as we kind of wind this all down, you know, I want to just add a couple things here. You know, I reflect on this now at, you know, 67 years old, and.
- [41:53]
Stephanie Hanlon
I think to my birthday, by the way.
- [41:55]
Patrick Hanlon
Yeah, yeah, thank you. But I, I have some compassion and, and you know, and I says, I sit back. A lot of these lessons we, I think, learned later in life, I'm going.
- [42:08]
Stephanie Hanlon
To say we're late bloomers, you and I. Yeah.
- [42:10]
Patrick Hanlon
Yeah. So, but think about it. I mean, when we can't relate to, let's say somebody who's 30, trying to build a career, trying to build a community, we don't necessarily have that relatedness to their circumstance, but we do have is the experience of reflection over many, many years. And in what I've learned and the wisdom I've gained, if. And so first off, no regrets, zero regrets. And it's not that I want to do it over again by any stretch of the imagination, but if I'm passing on wisdom of what I've learned, I would be more. I would have the, I would have the courage as a 30 year old and I'm saying is that I chickened out as a 30 year old. You know what I'm saying? I think my ego was way bigger, wanted to protect itself. And if I had any reflective guidance, wisdom to share with somebody who's 40 or 50 younger than me, is take your stand. It will change the trajectory of your life in the most positive way. And it may feel a little chaotic, may blow shit up in the short term, but in the long term, way better. That's what I got to say about that.
- [43:31]
Stephanie Hanlon
Well, and I'll just dovetail off that. And I'm really grateful that you saw my weirdness and how weird I was in my late 20s and early 30s or you saw some bright light or some weirdness that you thought was amazing. And had you not seen that, I don't think I could have developed into, you know, the person, the business person, the coach that I am today. So isn't that interesting that you were protecting yourself? I fell in love with that, that side. And you fell in love with my weirdness.
- [44:03]
Patrick Hanlon
Yeah.
- [44:04]
Stephanie Hanlon
Weird, right?
- [44:05]
Patrick Hanlon
Weird. Okay, I think we kicked the out of ego again. Probably more to come, hopefully. This has been insightful for our listener, Stephanie. Thank you.
- [44:16]
Stephanie Hanlon
Thank you, Han. That was fun.
- [44:19]
Patrick Hanlon
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening. If you found value in the podcast, please take the time to rate and review and share with others. Share with your friends as it is my goal to always improve and to provide the highest, highest value for you, the listener. If you have any comments, suggestions, or questions you'd like answered, please email me@ceoaincanada.com that's CEO.com I look forward to hearing from you. And until next time, Patrick. Okay.