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The Everyday Style School
Plus Size Style Advice with Katie Winnen
01:03:20
"Style is for everybody and every body" is one of the core values here at Everyday Style. However, we know that, in a society that often dictates beauty standards based on size and shape, we can all feel left out of the conversation at times. In this...
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- [00:01]
A
At Everyday Style, we believe that style is for everybody and everybody. So it makes me really sad when women feel like they can't or don't deserve to love the way they look just because of a number or letter on the tag in their clothes. So today I'm chatting with a plus size style expert to get her thoughts on how plus size women can have better style and more fun getting dressed. Let's get started. Foreign hello gorgeous. Welcome back to the Everyday Style School, the podcast that gives real life style advice to real life women. If you're new here, welcome. I'm your host, Jennifer Mackey. Mary I'm a wardrobe stylist who's been dressing everyday Women for over 20 years and I'm the founder of Everyday Style where we're on a mission to inspire women to love the way they look and and give you the tools to make getting dressed easy. If you're a longtime listener, welcome back. I am always so happy to have you with me. Today I am just thrilled to share my conversation with plus size stylist Katie Winnan with you. And if you're not plus size and you're thinking this is a good time to go check out a self improvement podcast instead, I want to encourage you to stick around. Also, this is kind of a self improvement podcast when you think about it. So there you go. Katie has a really fun approach to style and I think there's something in this episode for everyone. No matter what number is in the back of your pants. If you are plus size though, this episode is an absolute must. Listen Katie and I covered a lot of different topics, including our thoughts on the term curvy versus plus size, the challenges that make plus size styles so difficult, and why in the year of our Lord 2024, retailers are still bedazzling plus size styles. For real though, why no one is asking for this. Knock it off. Of course I asked Katie to share a few of her favorite brands and I love that she shared some mainstream choices that you probably already know about, as well as some lesser known brands with loads of personality. If you thought plus size clothes had to be boring, think again. My friend Katie is so kind and so talented. I just loved having the opportunity to chat with her. And I think you're going to love our conversation too. Before we get into our conversation though, let's meet today's expert. Katie Winnan's journey in the fashion world has been deeply rooted in her lifelong experience as a plus size individual. From childhood days spent immersed in her dress up box to earning degrees in fashion merchandising. Her passion for style has always been intertwined with her understanding of the unique challenges faced by the plus size community. As someone who intimately understands the struggles of shopping for plus size clothing and discovering personal style within the confines of limited options, Katie embarked on a mission to change the narrative. Her journey led her to sharing content on TikTok and Instagram, where she found platforms to share her love for plus size clothing, style and people. Now, as a dedicated personal stylist for plus size individuals all over the world, her focus remains unwavering. To empower and uplift the plus size community by providing personalized styling solutions and fostering a sense of inclusivity and confidence. Here's our conversation. I hope you enjoy. Hey Katie. Welcome to the style school.
- [03:37]
B
Hi Jennifer. I'm so, so excited to be here.
- [03:41]
A
So you and I were chatting before I hit record and we were starting to get into some stuff that I was like, okay, this is too good. We get, we need to. I do this with like all my guests. We have an amazing pre show conversation. I'm like, why didn't I just hit record so everyone could hear it? So I stopped myself, I reined myself in so we could have all of our deep thoughts for everyone to hear. We don't want you guys missing out on anything good. Okay, so before we get into it, I know that we shared your bio, but tell us a little bit about how you got started. What's your experience? How did you get to where you are?
- [04:15]
B
Yeah, so I currently work as a personal stylist exclusively for plus sizes. So I'm helping them with personal style, wardrobe support, personal shopping, and I think so much of that has come from my personal experiences, both as a plus size woman and as someone who's always loved clothing and fashion. I have been plus size for pretty much my whole life. I think that my body size started to become a topic of conversation when I was about 9 or 10 years old. And then since then, I've always just lived in a larger body. And I've always loved dress up. Like all my pictures of me as a little girl are playing in my dress up box. They're like some of the earliest memories that I have. So I've always been really drawn to clothing and just like beautiful things, things that like, I feel happy looking at, I feel happy to wear. And as I continue to, you know, grow into like middle school, high school, college, into my adult adulthood, but especially those really formative years like in middle school and high school, I noticed that my Love of clothing and of fashion was so challenged because there was such limited places that I could shop and there was such limited places that I could find clothes in my size. Even as a kid, you know, I was not able to shop where my peers were shopping. I remember at my eighth grade graduation, the dress that I wore was a maternity dress from Dress Barn because it was the only place that I could find something that fit me. And at the same time it was really fueling this battle with my body and my self esteem and my self image and going through those really formative years, high school, college, et cetera, I have done so much work on my relationship with myself and my body. There are more options now in plus sizes, which is incredible. I know there's a lot more work to be done, but there is more. And so it's allowed me to kind of rediscover that love and that passion for playing dress up and for my style and getting to like wear things that make me feel beautiful, that I think are beautiful. All's that to say is that my personal experience has really played a massive part in, in the work that I'm doing now. In addition, I actually went to school. I went to undergrad at the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York City. I got my degree in fashion merchandising. So I went to school and got some like fashion education. I've like worked in fashion in different capacities, whether it was like retail. When I was in school. I actually worked for a plus size fashion company about five years ago and that was a really great experience. And then from there I started to just share content online about my experiences as a plus size woman around plus size fashion, around finding my style and people have really resonated with it. And so I've kind of built this community of plus size people, mostly plus size women, through my social media, mostly on TikTok and Instagram. And so it's felt like a really organic kind of transition into starting to offer styling support exclusively for plus sizes. And it's like hard to put into words how much I love it and how I feel about it, because it feels it's healing for myself. And then also knowing that like getting to help other plus size people through these experiences and getting to understand so many of the complex layers and emotions and, you know, shopping experiences and whatnot that plus size people are experiencing when it comes to getting dressed, I think creates a really supportive connection between me and my clients. And it's just something I just feel really strongly about and really passionate about and I think that there's not a lot of people who are plus size who are, you know, in this styling space to, like, have those experiences and know firsthand what it can be like to not be able to go into a store and find your size, to, like, really struggle with some fit issues, to be faced with, like, outdated styling rules and ideas. So all that to say is that that's. That's where I got to where I am now. There is definitely some, like, schooling and some, like, professional experience, but so much of it just comes from lived experience.
- [08:23]
A
Well, I mean, honestly. And that is not to disparage formal education, but, yeah, nothing prepares you like, just living it, especially struggling. I found that I had so much more compassion for my clients because I always struggled. And I would say my body is normally mid size to cuspy and frankly, cuspy ladies. It can be the hardest place because, like, nothing fits you properly. Like, it can be. There were times I was like, look, I'm gonna have to go one way or the other. Am I gonna gain 20 or lose 20 because something has to fit. But when you were talking about how styling other people helped you accept your own body, I just. I had this, like, the feelings. I got the gooseies, because I. I feel that so deeply. And I don't know what it is like working with hundreds of women. And maybe it's just like seeing that nobody has a perfect body. Everybody struggles a little bit. Help me really, really accept my own more. Yeah, like, okay, well, maybe I got this part, but, you know, whatever. I don't know. Or you just are around clothes all the time, and you get to see everything that fits you so much better, and the difference it makes, I don't know. But I've always said I don't want to go to a nutritionist who's never struggled. Right. Like, I like somebody who struggled a little bit with whatever it is because they get it. They get why things are challenging. So I absolutely love that and. And feel that. So let's talk about plus size clothing. We had. We had a petite stylist on a few months ago, and it was wonderful. And the first thing we did was talk about what petite actually means. It's not just short. So let's talk about what plus size means. What it. What are plus clothes.
- [10:13]
B
So I think that a very, like, simple way to categorize them is plus sizes tend to be about a size 14 and up, sometimes a size 16, usually like a size 0x or 1x, not to be confused with an XL, but a 1x. So I think that from that standpoint, that's typically how, you know, kind of like when you're ventured into plus sizes.
- [10:35]
A
And with petites, the knee placement is different, the elbow placement is different, you know, the rise, the pocket placement, all of that. What changes in plus size clothing?
- [10:45]
B
That's such a good question and I think it's such a layered answer that transparently I'm still like, I feel like I'm like forever in research trying to understand because I think fit is so layered and complicated when it comes to plus sizes. Because I feel like plus size bodies can be so diverse and so. Thank you. Yeah, you know, they like our proportions, the way that our weight is distributed. Just our bodies can be so different and vary so much. And I was actually just telling a girlfriend of mine that myself, my mom and my sister are all the same, like clothing size. Like the number on our clothing is the same. My mom is 4 10, my sister is 5 2, I am 5 7. Our proportions are all incredibly different, like our bust, our stomachs, our hips, our bums. You know, like everything is shaped so differently, but yet we still like, could technically probably share clothes, but it's going to lay so differently and fit so differently on each of us because it's not just about being a size 16 or a size 18. There's so many other like, aspects to fit that I think are so important. But you know, like, when you think about how distinct and custom our bodies are, I feel like the fit and the clothing when it comes to plus sizes needs to, it has a lot to, to do to properly fit a plus size body. So all that to say is that I think it's complicated and I don't think that a lot of clothing now is matched up to being able to accommodate that. So I think oftentimes a lot of patterns are like graded up to an extent and sometimes they're added additional pleats or darts as needed, you know, like in a garment, like in a top or pants, et cetera. And sometimes that works. I feel like though, 9 times out of 10, the fit is still challenging. So I hope that's making sense because my like, really long answer to your question is that I think that it's so undefined and I think that it's not a very regulated thing kind of how plus size fit tends to be, you know, across different brands and across different styles.
- [12:57]
A
Fair enough. So there isn't like petite has these seven measurements that are different. It's kind of what you're saying is it's kind of different. Like one curvy. Curvy. We're going to talk about that in a second. One plus size brand is different through the length and one is different through the bust and all. So there isn't like these are standard things that get graded differently or changed out in a pattern differently.
- [13:18]
B
Not from my experience at all or from my research or anything that I've ever been able to tell. I mean, I think even shopping the same brand or shopping the same store, your size can vary so much between two different pairs of jeans, you know, So I just, I feel like it's, it is so all over the place and I would love to, you know, like, just better understand like how are these approaches being taken and like, why is this not more regulated? I think that that's like definitely a long term intention in my career and something that I would love to be involved in is how to make plus size clothing fit better, be more consistent, make more sense and like, just like understanding from all different, you know, like sides of it. But yeah, not from anything. I found that it's, it's consistent in terms of those, those things that you mentioned.
- [14:06]
A
Semi plus girls, if you're struggling, this is a big reason why. Right?
- [14:10]
B
Oh my gosh. Yeah.
- [14:11]
A
So let's talk about curvy for a second because the word curvy is nails on a chalkboard to me. Actually it isn't. When we are talking about a body shape that has a waist that is significantly smaller than her hips or rear. I love the word curvy. It describes it perfectly. But when we're Talking about above a 14, curvy doesn't always apply. Right. So I hate the term curvy as a euphemism for plus size.
- [14:38]
B
Mm.
- [14:39]
A
Is there a term you like, don't like? How do you feel about the word curvy in response to plus size?
- [14:45]
B
Personally, I stick with plus size. That feels like that works for me. Like individually when it comes to anybody else, I think that you should use whatever term feels right to you when it comes to describing your body. So if it feels comfortable to you to say the word curvy, I'm all for that. We can use the word curvy. If plus size feels comfortable to you, that's what I am going to be using most often. I know some people don't feel comfortable using that like being categorized into plus sizes. And that's like something I very much understand. When it comes to our relationships with our bodies and size and whatnot. There's a lot There another term that I will use to talk about myself. And I have clients who use often. And I'm going to put like a little bit of a trigger warning on this because I know this is a really sensitive word to a lot of people. But is the word fat in a very neutral, descriptive way? That is something I feel very comfortable using to describe my body. Again, in like a neutral, descriptive way, as I would use the saying I have pink hair or saying that I have blue eyes. It's just like very matter of fact. And I have a lot of clients who have reclaimed their relationship with that word and feel comfortable also using that word to describe their body. I don't have a strong reaction to curvy. I think that a lot of times it can. My first thought hearing it is that it's kind of playing into this idea that there's a way to have an acceptable plus size body. And it's probably like the hourglass. Yeah. Like you said, it's like the smaller waist, bigger hips, bigger bust, flatter stomach, you know, like that ashley graham, right? 1,000%. 1,000%.
- [16:17]
A
Like when you cross from a 12 to a 14 or 14 to a 16, like you take that one last bite of chocolate and all of a sudden you turn into Ashley Graham. Right. And we don't. We don't.
- [16:29]
B
Yeah.
- [16:29]
A
Like, if you have no waist, no hips, that's me. I would be that at a 2, a 12, a 22. Like, that's just. That's my body. And I think back to like the. I call them nasty grams or strongly worded messages. I got a message from somebody when I was sharing about jeans and I'm like, these are the best curvy jeans. My curvy clients love these. And she's like, if you think that is curvy, blah, blah, blah. Basically, like I was calling this model fat, Right. Or calling her plus size. Yeah, no, that's not what I was saying at all. And I was like, girl, first of all, have you met me? Second, no. You know, I've had clients go into stores and say, hey, I'm looking for curvy fit jeans. And they're like, well, you're not plus size. No, but I've had a. I've had a zero who is curvy. That is a tough to. That's a tough girl to dress. Right there. That's a tough girl to dress. And I feel like if we have to give something a cutesy or word, then we're actually not accepting it. Right. It's okay to Be plus size. It's okay to be any size, but if I can't just say it's a plus size, if I have to give that some cute euphemism, then we're not really saying it's okay just to be that. And that's. That's the reaction that I have to it. That's. I, like, I. I would rather just, like, call it what it is.
- [17:47]
B
You're right. That. Adding something that feels more digestible, I guess, to other people, it's kind of something that feels like, who is this really for? Like, by. By using the term curvy? Like, is this benefiting me, the person who's actually trying to fit into the size range? Or, like, is in this category, or is it more easier for somebody else to hear or more marketable to, like, a company or. Who knows? You know, I think that there are so many layers to it and so many feelings and, like, opinions that come up when it comes to body size and how we talk about it and how we support it and make clothing for it and market it and just, like, all the layers to it.
- [18:25]
A
The year that all about that Base by Meghan Trainor came out, I was like, oh, that's a fun little bop. And then I read some commentary on it, and I listened to it with new ears. Like, all the right curves in all the right places. Well, what if you have curves in the wrong places? What are the wrong places? You know, like, absolutely all about that bass. No trouble. I'm pretty convinced I have trouble.
- [18:47]
B
Like, I think a lot of us do. I think it's very common. Yeah, I don't know what trouble is.
- [18:52]
A
But I think I got. I don't have base, I'll tell you that. So it's kind of like, if we are saying it's okay to be plus size as long as you are this one version of plus size, then we're saying it's not really okay to be plus size, because, let's face it, most people don't look like Ashley Graham. You know, she's a supermodel for a reason.
- [19:11]
B
A hundred percent. In the US something like almost 70% of women are considered plus size, or, like, the average size is a size 18. And so I think that there's a lot of people who also connect with that who, you know, don't necessarily have curves in all the right places who might have some trouble or a lot of trouble. And I can't tell you how many times that I've been in that situation. And I'm sure You have too. And so many people listening have been in a place where you're hearing something about your body and how it's described or how it's okay, but you're not. You don't fit into that. And you're just like, well, if that's what's acceptable, I'm not that, or I'm different than that, or I have a stomach or my, you know, I have extra weight on my arms or folds, you know, and rolls on my back. So what does that mean about me? Like, I guess is only part of me acceptable? Am I not accepted in this category or like in society in these ways? It just, it can feel like such a losing battle over and over again.
- [20:08]
A
Yeah. So before we hit record and we started to talk about stuff, we were talking about how we work with people and I was saying that I don't really see clients anymore. I. A couple that I work with. You mainly work virtually with clients because there are three stores to go into.
- [20:24]
B
Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So I. Working virtually with clients is great because I can work with people, you know, outside of where I am in the Bay Area. But also like a huge part of what I do with a lot of my clients is personal shopping. And I would love the experience of getting to shop in person with them and go to stores and try stuff on and see how it fits. But, you know, if you're a plus size person, you know that there are very limited places that you can go into to shop. And myself is a size 18. I can think of like three stores that I can go into and only one of them is probably one that I would actually want to. To shop at and buy clothing at. And it's not necessarily like a place where I'm going in to invest in pieces. It's. It's Old Navy, you know, which, which I have lots of Old Navy pieces. I love Old Navy pieces. It's also just the one place that I can go. And even then I know that they've stopped carrying some of their, like more extended sizes on the floor.
- [21:19]
A
I heard that. Oh.
- [21:20]
B
Which is really sad.
- [21:21]
A
I was there yesterday. I noticed a lot of like 2x and 3x.
- [21:24]
B
Good, good. I'm glad. I think it's not every store, but I just know that, like, I've heard from some folks that it wasn't there anymore and they weren't like getting the like 3x4x's in. So I'm really happy to hear that there are some stores still out there that have it. But anyway, yeah, so there's very few stores, you know, Lane Bryant, Torrid, Old Navy. I don't really have any, like, avenues around me, but again, still, it's. Even between those stores, I feel like they can. They can be kind of, like, niche or specific in the styles that they offer and, like, and what they have and who is drawn to their stuff. So. And I think that's an additional reason why doing this work feels important, is to be able to support them through that experience of, okay, let's be really selective, like, with the clothing options that we're going to order, but then knowing that we're going to order these, treat your. Your home like a dressing room, and then potentially have to go through all the emotions of trying things on it, not working after already waiting, you know, like, how many days or even weeks to get this in only to return it and potentially have to, like, order another size or even order multiple sizes all at once and then, like, return. Like, it's. It's such a process, and it's just consistently can be challenging to have to navigate just trying on clothes in that way.
- [22:40]
A
Yeah, yeah. I had. I shopped with a client a couple of weeks ago, and she was. She was plus size and petite, which I think, honestly, right now petites are the most underserved in store. Like, I have, like, the Nordstrom. My Nordstrom. So my Nordstrom is the mall of America. I live in a shopping mecca. Right. They have actually really good plus department. They have no petites. Not. They have no petites in stores. Like, two racks. It's terrible. It's terrible. But she was a plus petite. And we had J. Jill, which we actually did very well there. But you had to choose plus or petite. And then it was like Lane Bryant and Torrid. She was not Elaine Bryant or Torrid customer. You know what I mean? Like, that wasn't her aesthetic. We really, really, really struggled. There was not much at all. And I think everyone is being pushed online. Everyone. I remember shopping with a size 10 client, and this was just like a very impactful day because everywhere we went, I was like, do you have this in a 10? No, but we can order it for you online now. I understand that, but we're here and we want to put it on our body. So I think everyone's becoming underserved in stores and we do have to shop online. But man, oh, man, when I would have a plus client, there was always a little bit of panic. Not because I didn't want to shop, because I love it. I loved it.
- [24:01]
B
Yeah.
- [24:02]
A
But it was like I had to be so strategic. So strategic.
- [24:07]
B
Yeah. There's so much extra work and strategy that goes into it. You're so right.
- [24:12]
A
Besides being underserved in stores and not having sort of well defined fits, what are some of the other challenges that plus size women have? Having good style or going shopping?
- [24:24]
B
I think we've definitely hit on a couple really big ones. I know we just talked, as you mentioned, we just talked about shopping in person. I know I talked about fit for a little bit too and how inconsistent that can be and how challenging that can be. I think another really big one is representation. I think that being able to see yourself represented. Again, going back to what we talked about, about how there are so many different ways to have a plus size body and for your body to look and you know, whether you're plus and petite, plus and tall, if you're big chested, if you have a bigger stomach, if you have bigger hips, you know, there's just so many different ways that your body can look. And I think that I'm seeing more representation of body shapes and body sizes and like in that size representation than I did a couple years ago, which makes me really, really happy. I also think that it's still really hard to like even Torrid. I'll go onto their website and I swear I know that they carry a size, they started a size 10, but the models that they're using do not look plus size to me. Like I would never guess that they're even a size 10. Like I'm like, there's no way, you know, and that's supposed to be for the plus size girls. Like Torrid is supposed to be for us. And so even going to a place like that, that's for us and still not seeing our body shapes and sizes and just the way that our bodies look like accurately represented I think makes it so tough because where a not feeling like we're a part of these spaces and not feeling like there is, you know, like space for us to be involved and then also just when it comes to those things like imagining how that's going to fit on us, we might as well just be looking at like a straight sized person on another website because there's so much range and like there's so much variety in how our bodies are shaped and can look. And I think that that representation needs a lot more attention. And then additionally like in marketing, I think that a lot of times you'll go to a brand's Instagram page or social media page and they'll carry maybe up to a 2x or a 3x, but you're not seeing those sizes on their feeds and you're not seeing those sizes in their clothes. And I think it's such a disservice and it makes it so challenging to be able to know what's going to work for you. And if a brand is even, like, available to you, like, you would go again, go to brands pages, and never even know that they might cater to plus sizes because they're not marketing themselves that way.
- [26:52]
A
Do you follow Katie Storino?
- [26:54]
B
Yes, I do.
- [26:55]
A
I love Katie Storino. I've been following her for ages and I think her, her Instagram series Make My Size.
- [27:02]
B
Yes.
- [27:03]
A
It's just wonderful to watch. And she's a huge advocate for size inclusivity and, you know, body acceptance and all that good stuff. But she will go into just a regular old store, you know, and try clothes on and then show how it doesn't necessarily work and make my size. And I, I think she's just doing a lot for, for the conversation around plus size, especially, especially in more stylish options. I think it's getting better. I think it's getting a lot better, you know, especially as more mainstream stores just extend their size ranges. But I remember a time where even, like at Dress Barn, you would go in the straight size, the just the Mrs. Section, and you'd be like, oh, that's a dress. It's a fine dress. And then you would find in the plus size, and it's like, well, why is it a cold shoulder rhinestone version? Like, why. Yeah, what is the obsession with cold shoulders in the plus styling? I don't get it. I don't get it.
- [28:08]
B
I think it's still a question we're asking ourselves all the time. Is a to your point, like, what is it with some of these styles? But then also, why is it so different from the street sizes, you know, like from like the non plus sizes? It's. If we're coming to this brand or the store, like, we want the same stuff. We just want it available in our size and silhouette that's going to fit us. So I don't know why sometimes there's such a huge adjustment and kind of like, you know, redesign for the plus size. Like, it just, it doesn't make sense to me.
- [28:39]
A
Like, what kind of brain chemistry do you think is altered when somebody becomes a size 16? I guarantee you they don't want anything with rhinestones on it. It's just bizarre to me. And I've seen less of that over the years, but it still happens. It's still like, okay. And I even saw it when I was shopping that client a couple weeks ago. I grabbed something from. Because she was. Could do like some extra larges and then somewhere just a little snug. So I'd find the extra large and it was cute, and then I'd find the, like the one X and it was just a little bit different, not in cut, but in styling. Like, what? What? Why? Why?
- [29:17]
B
It's so weird, I think that there's such a lack of thought and effort and attention put into plus size clothing from the brands and the retailers that aren't specifically making plus sizes that are just kind of like, hey, we don't really care too much about making sure that this fits you really well and you're getting the clothing options you deserve. We just know you need to cover your body, you know, like, again, a large percentage of women in America are plus sizes. Like, this is a demographic that we kind of just need to serve. So let's just give them something. And it feels like an afterthought, kind of bottom of the barrel, you know, when it comes to the selections.
- [29:55]
A
But I feel like it would be easier. Hey, let's just make the exact same thing.
- [29:59]
B
Totally.
- [30:00]
A
Like, we don't have to overthink this. We just. We just make it a little different. Speaking of which, I find it really interesting that Loft did plus probably for what, two, three years, and then they cut it.
- [30:12]
B
Yeah.
- [30:13]
A
And they sent an email saying, we aren't doing this well and we've chosen not to do it anymore. I had to really respect that. However, I will say that it worked very well. That's back when I was shopping with clients all the time and I was like, oh, thank God. A stylish option. You know, like, my woman is the loft woman. Right. So I was like, oh, thank God we can do this. And then they cut it. And I have to give them props if they're not doing it well to not do it.
- [30:40]
B
Yeah.
- [30:41]
A
But at the same time, like. Or you could do it well. That's another.
- [30:45]
B
Did you, in your experience, when you would shop there with clients, did you feel like they were doing it all right?
- [30:51]
A
I think it did work for my women. I mean, it really. It really did. I will say I didn't have a lot of, like, the 3x4x clients. So it was kind of, for me, it was like the women who were just outside of, like the extra larges, and it was like, oh, thank God we can just size up a little bit, right? So I. It wasn't on a more plus size. Plus size. And maybe that's where they were falling apart. I don't, I don't know.
- [31:14]
B
Maybe I'd be curious because I remember that. I remember when Loft pulled their plus sizes and like reduced their size range. I remember being disappointed and I know a lot of other people in the community were very disappointed. And it was actually very interesting because I think the following year, year I attended an event in New York City and It was called CurvyCon. And I don't think that they've had it since, since COVID you know, 2020. They haven't done an in person event like that. But Loft was there and I remember it was kind of a conversation amongst attendees like, oh, it's wild that Loft is here, but they pulled their plus sizes. And I know people had a lot of strong feelings that I think they actually verbalized to the folks from Loft who were there about how they felt about it all. And so I wish I had had the opportunity to ask them more what they felt like they weren't doing well and why they pulled it and if they have plans to come back. Because it's an experience that the plus size community is very familiar with. Especially if you've been plus size for most of your life or a long time of feeling disappointed and feeling just kind of, yeah, just let down, you know, by brands and, and feeling like, oh my gosh, they're doing this thing for us. We finally have these options to shop our style at the store that's reputable. You know that this is like great news. Only for it to get pulled back is, is like, wow, okay, like another thing that isn't working out for us.
- [32:37]
A
Yeah. All right, so let's switch gears and talk about brands that are killing it in the plus size arena. Where do you like to shop? Where do you like to send your clients? What are your favorites?
- [32:48]
B
Yeah, so I do have a few favorites. I think they're going to be, you know, I know I mentioned like Old Navy earlier, they're going to be a little bit more investment, but I also think that they're worth it for the fit, the quality, and also just the like the size inclusivity. So I think that four plus size bodies, they're just going to tend to work out better. My number one right now, I'm like, if you people follow me on social media, they know I talk about them all the time. Is universal standard. I love universal standard. I think that they are an incredible company that is really setting a lot of standards for what size inclusivity and what clothing can be like when you have a value focused company. I love that Universal Standard offers sizes up to a size 40. I love that they really engineer their fit across all the sizes that they offer to ensure that they fit those bodies the way that they're supposed to fit. Their size medium is an 18, because they understand that that's like the average, you know, in America is a size 18. I found their fabrics to be wonderful, very comfortable, just a lot of like cotton and linen and things that are breathable. They have a lot of items that are cooling. Clearly I'm a really big fan, but I've just found that like everything from denim to T shirts to workwear, I've loved everything I've ever tried from them. I'm constantly recommending them to clients especially for more investment pieces or workwear pieces that like staples, you can have for a long time. They have a pair of jeans that are specifically designed for bodies that have more than a 10 inch difference between their waist and hips. And just little things like that, you can tell that they really care. So I love Universal Standard. There's a couple other small companies I love. I love Nettle Studios. They're actually based out here in the Bay Area. They offer a lot, again, a lot of cotton and linen pieces. I think they have things that are going to be more minimal in style, but also things that can be really vibrant and playful. But I think all around, like comfort, expressive and also just their size range, I believe fits up to, I think a 4 or 5X, which is awesome. And then a New Works is another company I really love. They're definitely more for the folks who like color and print and like to be bold and vibrant. They also offer options, I think up to a 4 or 5X and they work with really cool artists to create their patterns. And they'll do limited batches of each of these patterns that they make. And it's just like, it's just such a fun company. I really love their stuff. There's another brand based out of New Zealand called Friday Flamingo that is a small company. They do a lot of dresses, they do a lot of skirts, womenswear, and they offer up to size 30. But I have been able to size down in some of their stuff. So I feel like their size range is even larger because of that. But just like really beautiful pieces. Like if you're looking for a wedding guest dress, if you're looking for pieces for work, especially if you like color, especially if you like print. They're such a great company and I feel like such a great company to support as well. And then I also wanted to mention a few jewelry companies because I know that like finding jewelry as a plus size person, especially like rings and bracelets and necklaces and extended lengths can be really challenging. So some of my favorites are Schweit Designs. Schweit Designs does demi fine jewelry. They're a woman owned business based out of San Diego. They do custom pieces. They have rings up to a size 15. They have like other items with like necklaces, bracelets, anklets that come in varying lengths so that you can find something that's definitely going to fit you. The owner is also a plus size woman, so I feel like she really gets it, she really understands. And then Zaleska Jewelry, they're based in Canada, but similarly have rings up to a size 15, offer necklace lengths up to like 26 inches, I think, and just like really have beautiful pieces that are going to fit, which, you know, if you're somebody like looking to add those finishing touches into your wardrobe and you're a plus size person, you know that those historically can be like challenging to find as things like rings and necklaces and bracelets that fit you the way that you want them to fit. So those are places that are kind of like top of my list at the moment that I'm really loving.
- [36:50]
A
I love it. I love it. Okay, so now let's talk about styling the plus size woman.
- [36:56]
B
Okay.
- [36:57]
A
And I hate to go negative. I always try and keep it positive, but I think we learn a lot from mistakes. So what are some of the most common mistakes you see plus size women making when it comes to style?
- [37:10]
B
So there's a couple that come to mind. I think the first thing that I notice a lot is mirroring somebody else's style so closely that you're not really giving yourself room to explore your own personal style. And I think that this can be a unique experience to plus size people. Not that it's exclusive to them, but I find it happens to plus size people a lot is because I think that the lack of options that we've had for so long has kind of pushed our style exploration phases to later in life. So I find that a lot of like my clients into their adulthood, you know, the time when you might have been exploring with your style in high school or in college or maybe your early 20s, that is kind of happening for a lot of plus size Adults, like in their later 20s and their 30s, even into their 40s, because the options to play with your style didn't exist when they were younger. And so you just had to wear what came in your size and what was there and available. And a lot of times it had no reflection of your actual personal style. And I think that a lot of times as plus size women that I have worked with are starting to want to better understand their style and find their personal style, they'll see a style on somebody else and think, ooh, I like that. And I think that they look good and then just mirror it and adopt it almost identically for themselves. And I think it can be so valuable to look to others for inspiration. I also think that the most key part of personal style is the personal part. So it's like knowing yourself and getting that time to explore what that looks like for you, what feels good for you, what shapes and silhouettes, like, what's the esthetic that you're really drawn to, what are the colors that are in your color palette. And so there's so many pieces to it. And I think a lot of times plus size people will see other creators or other like, plus size people and their style and just kind of want to copy that instead of like, you know, kind of taking time to explore on their own. So that's one that I think is that I see very often, and then the other that I see often too is only dressing for trends. And I think there's such a disclaimer to come along with this because again, being a plus size person, you're so at the mercy of what the stores that you can shop at are offering. So if Target and Old Navy and places like that are the only places that you have access to and you're shopping their trends like that's what you're going to be wearing. But I think that, you know, just with the way that trend cycles are now and the way that there are so many different kinds of trends and, and trends change so quickly, especially like with social media and things like that, it can kind of keep you in this continuous cycle of renewing what your personal style looks like, even though it's not necessarily because your personal style is changing, it's just you're following trends so that. And the trends are always changing. I also think it can be wasteful to constantly be like, you know, updating your wardrobe in those kind of ways. There's so much reason as to why those happen so often, and I notice that they happen so often, and I think such a key part for navigating them is again, kind of coming back to yourself and wanting and being able to connect with you and what actually feels like you as much as you possibly can.
- [40:29]
A
One of the questions I always like to ask my clients when, when they would call me is why? What is this thing in your life right now that is making you do this? When women reach out to work with you, what reasons do they give?
- [40:43]
B
I think there's a few really common answers. I think the first one probably so often is I need help with shopping. I don't know where to purchase the things that come in my size that are my style, that are within my budget and needing to know more brands and options outside of again, those kind of core places that a lot of plus size people end up falling back on time and time again. So I think shopping is a really big reason. I think the personal style piece is another really big reason. There's so many plus size people I talk to who have things that they feel drawn to, but they are looking at their Pinterest boards and feeling like it's such a mod podge of different things and they can't seem see a thread that is telling them what their personal style is or what they're drawn to and they really need help and support with that. So overall I'm finding that the shopping piece and the personal style piece tend to be the most common reasons that people are looking for styling support.
- [41:40]
A
One thing that I have heard a lot in my career is when I will have better style, when, when I lose the weight, when I get back in the pre baby jeans, when, when, when, when, when. And you know, I'm, I'm kind of realizing that you probably don't, maybe you hear that, but by the time someone reaches out to you, they've decided to invest in themselves. And even last year we sent a survey to all of our style circle members because we put together this like crazy database, crazy database of shopping links for our capsules every season. And you know, we put as many plus size links as we put petite links. And our, our link team was scouring the Internet and we had, oh my gosh, like half of our women are petite. Very few are plus size. And the women who were plus size reported not spending a lot of money on clothes. And I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of reasons for it. But I go back to are they waiting? Are they waiting until that magic number on the scale, the magic number in the back of the pants, you know, the, the magical moment where you wake up and feel like you're worthy of good clothes, which, spoiler alert, that never happens. I've been up and down the scale 100 times. It never happens. How you feel about yourself today is the same way you're going to feel about yourself no matter what you weigh. Sorry, that's the truth. What would you say to women who are like, I can't have cute clothes? I had a plus size woman say to me very recently, nothing looks good on plus size women, so why bother? That is an actual quote.
- [43:21]
B
That makes me so sad.
- [43:23]
A
Me too.
- [43:25]
B
That's such a great point. And I think that there are so many, so many people who are waiting for, for whether it's their bodies to change or feelings to change or a certain circumstance in life to change, to invest not even necessarily just money, but time and energy into their personal style and that expression of themselves. And a few things come to mind. I think the first is when the messaging that you're getting over and over again is that you're not deserving of those beautiful things or that those beautiful things don't exist in your size or it just doesn't look good if your body is a certain size or shaped a certain way that no matter what you put on it, it's just going to not look like it's supposed to or it's not, it's going to look bad. It makes it really, really hard to break yourself out of that belief when it's all that you're hearing and seeing. And I think it's so important to, if you're on social media, follow people who have bodies that look like yours, follow people who have bodies that don't look like yours in the way that maybe they're bigger or shaped differently or a different race or age or whatever it may be. But just to see how much space there is for any kind of body to exist and for any kind of body to express themselves through their personal style or not even express themselves, but feel good in the clothing that they're wearing and know that they're deserved of having a wardrobe that fits them, that feels like them and that they can feel good and at the least, least feel comfortable in. Because I think that so often plus size people are walking around feeling uncomfortable in their clothing for so many different reasons. Something I love about personal style and I love about clothing in general is just the ability to be creative and to express yourself and the way that I think it's such an important thread, you know, in who you are and like and you know, it's, it's the clothing that you wear and your personal style can be such a fun, playful way to just introduce yourself to the world and to show the world just who you are. And it doesn't, it can be jeans and a T shirt. You know, it doesn't have to be anything extensive or it can be something like pattern mixing and you know, different textures and different colors. Like it can be whatever you want it to be. And again, there's so much space for so many kinds of styles for so many different bodies and it's such a connection point to yourself and who you are. I just think it's so important. Again, whatever your, your style is, whatever your style values are, I just know that the messaging is, it's just not there that plus size people should be deserving of those things or should be taking time and energy and money to invest in those things. I think that this could be such a longer conversation, Jennifer.
- [46:27]
A
No, I know, I know, I know.
- [46:30]
B
The last thing I was going to say is I think that there's, there's this mentality around plus size people that their bodies are kind of a temporary situation because being plus size is something that like you should fix. And ultimately like at one point, like if you have enough willpower and if you have enough dedication, you're not going to be plus size forever. And I think that's such a dangerous misconception because if the whole world ate and exercised the same and their lifestyles were exactly the same, there would be people who are plus size people who are not. It's just genetics. It's just like the, like circumstances. There's a lot of factors at play. And so some people are plus sized people and sometimes bodies change. But I think that messaging that oh well, this is a problem that you should fix also isn't helping plus size folks feel like, let me do this for myself now and let me invest this in myself. So there's a lot that I would say to people feeling that way, I think.
- [47:23]
A
And I have had confirmed to me that some plus size women, I'm not going to say all or a lot, but I know some who feel like dressing well in their current body is like waving the white flag, right? Like it is, it's an admission of defeat to buy clothes that make them happy now. And this is such a bizarro concept to me because I don't know if you've touched clothing lately. The quality on most things is just crap, right? It just is. I mean, yes, you have to go out of your way to buy things that are going to last a while. You really have to try. Just left your own devices, going to Old Navy, Target, you know, loft. These are not the last clothes you're ever gonna buy. Yeah, but buying clothes that make you happy right now, it's like that, that's the size you can purchase forever. That's it? Yeah, that's it. That's all you can ever have. Like, it's an admission of defeat. And if I could change one thing for plus size women, it would be that these aren't the last clothes you're ever gonna buy. And I had a client, she reached out to me because she was struggling to get dressed every day. She didn't have any clothes. She was just really in a world of hurt. And I said, okay, we need to buy pants. She said, I will not buy bigger than an 18.
- [48:36]
B
Wow.
- [48:36]
A
I won't. And I was like, okay, but here's the problem. Your body is currently bigger than an 18, so we need to buy some pants. And she's like, I'll buy anything that's an 18. Okay. So what we're going to do instead is just struggle every day, Hate the way we look every day. Like, hating yourself never produces these positive changes. We'd like it to, right?
- [49:06]
B
I mean, no, there's no.
- [49:07]
A
Nobody's ever hated themselves into a different size. They haven't.
- [49:11]
B
No one's ever hated themselves into loving themselves. Like, it just. It doesn't work that way.
- [49:14]
A
Exactly. I. That is the perfect way to say it because nobody has ever hated themselves into loving themselves. The funny thing is, when you love yourself, it's easier to love yourself a little bit more. And when you love yourself, it's easier to make the changes if you want to make the changes. If you don't. If you don't want to ever change your body, fine, cool, don't. But if you do, it's easier to do it. When you've come from a place of love, of liking yourself. Nobody has ever punished themselves into a better body or better style. It just doesn't work that way. But I worry that all the plus size brands that come out plus size women have to buy them. Right? Plus size women have to support those things. And I think back to Ann Taylor, not Loft, but regular. Ann Taylor was the first sort of Main street sort of store to do a plus size collection years and years ago. And do you know why they stopped doing it? Nobody bought it. Why didn't they buy it? Well, because they didn't want to spend you know, at the time, it was probably a hundred dollars on a pair of pants. Now, that's a reasonable. But when the good stuff is out there, we gotta buy the good stuff.
- [50:28]
B
Totally.
- [50:28]
A
You gotta. You, you know, or brands will be like, yeah, not worth it. Not worth it.
- [50:32]
B
Yeah.
- [50:33]
A
And I don't understand the value in the struggle when you don't have to.
- [50:38]
B
I completely agree. I think that. That you don't have to struggle. I think that, you know, what you said earlier before about waving the white. The white flag is so interesting about kind of like, well, I've given up on being attractive or beautiful or healthy or, you know, whatever, however people would describe it. And it just. It makes me so sad to know that that is. I know that's a really common mentality. And again, I know that that that comes from messaging over and over and over again about what is acceptable for bodies. And again, like, you shouldn't be settling, and you are failing if you're, like, allowing yourself to stay at the size you are or. Or how you look. And so I think that there's just so many layers to it. And I understand why plus size folks are having such a hard time with investing in their clothing, with wanting to express themselves. And I think that, to your point, you know, and what we were discussing about loving yourselves, I think if you can start with showing yourself that compassion and empathy and kindness the way that you would to a friend. Because I think a lot of times the way that we talk about ourselves and think about ourselves, we would never say about a lot of other people, especially people that we love and that are close to us. And so I think if we can start building that relationship with ourselves to understand that. Wait a second. I think that the real problem here is anyone who has a problem with me, like, that was my light bulb moment, is realizing that I'm not actually the problem. The problem is anybody who thinks that I have a problem. And also, like, why is the way that I was born and the way that my body is, like, why is that of so much concern to other people? Like, I think, is it really that they think I should be healthier? Is it really that they think I'll be happier? I don't think it is. I think that they. There's just such a stigma and bias against people in larger bodies, and it's like, so upsetting to other people for some reason. And there's like, all these internalized emotions and feelings and beliefs about it that that's getting projected onto me. And also the other thing That I think is a really important to like kind of wrap that thought up with is that who is profiting off of that? Who is profiting off of me hating my body? Who is profiting off of me when they're telling me not to settle? Or when they're telling me don't be a failure, don't be lazy about it. Like, I'm sure there are at least, you know, a couple dozen products or companies or businesses that would benefit from me continuously, like feeling that way about myself. And I think just in general, a lot of that messaging that we get about ourselves, whether it's about our size or otherwise, especially as women, it's like, who is making money off of this? Because there's probably someone marketing this to me to make me feel bad about myself.
- [53:33]
A
That's a very, very good point. Who benefits by me feeling bad?
- [53:37]
B
Yeah.
- [53:37]
A
And you know what, if it's not you, then don't pay attention to it. Right.
- [53:42]
B
Like, exactly.
- [53:43]
A
Okay, so we are running out of time, but I don't want to. I know. And I think we could have this.
- [53:49]
B
Conversation for the next five hours easily.
- [53:51]
A
What are some of your best plus size style tips? If a plus size woman is listening to the show and she's like, that's it, I want to up my style, what should she do?
- [54:01]
B
Yeah. So I think that like two easy, I think actionable things that you can do this week make some time for. I mentioned this before, but start following people who either have a similar body shape and type to you, specifically folks who share style related content. I on social media really like to share other creators, whether it's like reposting them on my stories. Like I have a video right now that I'm about to post about style creators that are plus size that I really love in all different shapes and sizes. And so I think that finding creators, specifically style creators who are plus size who have similar body types to yours, who have different body types to yours. Again to really understand that there is so many ways that style can look. There's so many different ways that clothes can look on you and there's so much space for you to exist in this world, in this world of style and where it meets, you know, being plus size. So I think that's really, really important. I think kind of a sub point to that is unfollow people who are making you feel bad about yourself, even if it's, even if they're the nicest person in the world and you know them, maybe mute them. You don't have to follow them, but maybe mute their, their stories or their posts if you can on Instagram. Because our algorithms and our social media, as much as there's a lot that we can't control, we have control over who we follow and we have control over what we're engaging with. The thing about those algorithms is that a lot of times if you do show them what you want to see, they will show you more of that. So I think that if you are following people who do not look like you and that you're a plus size person and they're very thin or they're just like a very different look from you, maybe you're getting style inspo from them and that's great. And also if you're noticing that it's making you feel worse about yourself, like ideally the people that you're following make you feel better about yourself or make you feel inspired or make you feel good. So I think that's another really important part of it is celebrities, influencers, content creators, just anybody who's not making you feel good, you know, like make an edit to that. And then I think the other thing that's really important is giving yourself time to play and explore. When it comes to style, I think that personal style is. There's often this idea that it is something that some people are just born with and some people aren't. And I think it's actually so much more of a muscle that like maybe some people have established, you know, like earlier on, but also the more that you work on building it and strengthening it, the stronger it gets and the easier it's going to feel. So I think like, I love to put on like a really fun playlist and just give myself like an hour a week to put on outfits. Like they don't have to be anything that I plan to like leave the my apartment in, but just something that I can be creative with. Like putting sequins together with, you know, like this top or this bottom or you know, like putting just like all an all sparkle outfit or maybe like testing a color combination that I've never worn before. But I think that that time is so crucial. And I think that ideally, especially if you've had a challenging relationship with clothing and style, it can become something that feels enjoyable and playful and fun or at least doesn't feel terrible and bad. And I think giving yourself that time to, to play, to explore, to flex that and build that muscle is really, really important.
- [57:16]
A
I absolutely love that. And I chuckled a little bit when you said people feel like they weren't born with the style gene or. Because I say that all the time. And I think some of the messaging we've gotten just, you know, from pop culture in the world is that, like, women come out of the womb ready to shop, knowing what looks good.
- [57:38]
B
Yeah.
- [57:38]
A
And that's. I mean, I worked with hundreds of women who are like, I hate to shop. If you hate to shop, you can still have style. You still can. It doesn't have to be like, this girl's day. You know, you always see, like, the picture with all the boutique bags. That's miserable and it hurts. Right. You have, like those deep grooves on your wrists from carrying them.
- [57:59]
B
Oh, yeah. That's not sweating. You're thirsty, you're hungry. 100.
- [58:04]
A
Yes. But it is. It's a skill and a muscle and you can learn it and you can get good at it. So don't count yourself out, ladies. If you're like, I just wasn't born with style gene. I think Jenna Lyons was. I think Jenna Lyons totally Rachel Zoe was born with a style gene. I mean, I think we can probably say Coco Chanel was born with the style gene. Very few of us outside of, like, real style icons were. But you can learn and you can get better at it. So last question before I ask where we're going to find you and all that good stuff. Women listening to the show today, what is the one thing you would like them to take away from our conversation?
- [58:43]
B
Oh, my gosh. We talked about so many good things.
- [58:46]
A
I know.
- [58:46]
B
I think the one thing that feels really important is that you are deserving of feeling wonderful and beautiful in so many ways, especially when it comes to clothing. And if you are a plus size person and you've existed in a plus size body for. Especially for a while, I'm sure that you've gotten messaging over and over again that beautiful things are just not meant for you. And I think it's a very heartbreaking part of being plus size. Continuously seeing the shapeless pieces, the muted, dull colors that, you know, like, wouldn't even excite somebody who likes neutrals. Just seeing things that are so lacking in beauty. You really can internalize that as I'm not deserving of those or I'm not meant for those. And I want to be. If you haven't heard this before, you are absolutely deserving of that. And again, you are not the problem in that situation. And I hope that you give yourself that opportunity to feel beautiful or at least open yourself up to the possibility that that can happen for you and that can be a reality for you.
- [59:54]
A
I love that. I absolutely love that. All right. Where can they find you? How do you work with people? Give them all the good stuff and we will have all the links in the show notes.
- [60:03]
B
Perfect. Honestly, connecting with me is pretty easy. I'm primarily on social media, Instagram and TikTok. I really love to share as much style, content and resources as there is possible and I think that, like, following me on those pages is probably just the easiest way to access me. My handle is at katieiswinnin. Just my first and last name on both platforms, actually on any social media platform. But those are the ones I'm on the most. And from there I have links on my pages to connect with me if you're interested in working together. I always love getting DMs, so feel free to DM me, you know, anytime. But I feel like TikTok and Instagram is where I am most of the time.
- [60:39]
A
I love it. Thank you so much for being on the show today.
- [60:43]
B
Oh my gosh, thank you, Jennifer. I really love this conversation. Thank you for giving me space to talk about this topic that I is so important to me and that I care about so much and like bringing this to your listeners. I. I'm so excited about it.
- [60:57]
A
We're going to spread the message far and wide. Yes. Thanks, Katie.
- [61:00]
B
Thank you.
- [61:02]
A
Oh my gosh, isn't she just amazing? I loved what she had to say about finding your own style, whether you are plus size or not. I think that is a wonderful place to start and really, really good advice. I hope you enjoyed this episode and that you learned a lot about dressing your plus size body best. Be sure to head over to Instagram or TikTok and say hi to Katie. And we've got all of those links in the show notes. A quick programming note before we go. The Everyday Style School is out for the summer. We are taking a break to let our team relax and soak up these last weeks of this beautiful warm season. We will be back in September with the Fall Trends episode and a brand new Fall capsule guide. I know you guys are always ready for that. However, you can still listen to us weekly on the Everyday Style School Extra Credit podcast, which is the show created exclusively for our Style Circle members. Right now we are in the middle of a series sharing tips to dress your most challenging body parts. Whether you struggle with a big bust or a flat rear. Thick ankles, thick calves. We're doing our best to make getting dressed easy. If you're not a member, come join us come check it out. That'll keep you going all summer long. All right, I will see you next time. Until then, remember that your everyday matters. So get dressed for it and that's a wrap. Thank you for listening today. If you're loving the Everyday Style School podcast, I'd like to invite you to become a member of the Style Circle. It's our monthly all all access membership that gives you everything we create to make style easy so you can save time and money, have easier mornings and more confidence all day long. You get our seasonal capsule wardrobe guides, all of the masterclasses we offer, and our exclusive members only podcast the Everyday Style School. Extra credit. Plus you're invited to the Facebook community where you can get even more style support and inspiration. I would love to get to know you. Answer Support your style journey. It's just $19 a month less than the cost of a clearance shirt you're never going to wear. Come join me and make your everyday style easier.