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The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan
549: How Popflex Became Taylor Swift's Favourite Clothing Brand | Cassey Ho [VIDEO]
00:55:24
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- [00:00]
A
When you get to such a rock bottom point and you think everything's over, you just have to crawl out one more time. I was about to quit everything. I felt I wasn't a good CEO, I wasn't a good designer, I wasn't a good creator. I had lost my backbone and I had lost trust in myself. All I can do is be ahead. These new ideas, these new inventions, they're right here in my head. They can follow me, but they can't lead me. Make sure that this thing that you're putting out into the world is different than the other things that already exist. You' so grateful that I get to live this life that wasn't supposed to be. Hear the stories, learn the proven methods, and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship. Welcome to the Founder podcast with Nathan Chan.
- [00:52]
B
Well, Cassie, thank you so much for joining us here today. As I shared, we connected well, well, well. Back in the day before, like, you had a big following through blog, but you weren't. You weren't really building these two incredible e commerce empires. You've built this massive fitness empire. So I guess the first question I wanted to ask is, how did you get started? How did you get into this space around Blogilates? How'd you start on your journey as a creator and an entrepreneur and founder?
- [01:24]
A
All right, I'm going to take you through a windy path. It's not straight, but essentially I started blogilates back in 2009 and it was not meant to be what it is today. It really was just me, a Pilates instructor who just graduated from college with a degree in biology, and I was moving from the west coast to the east coast and my 40 students at the gym were like, cassie, who's going to teach us pop Pilates? Because at the time nobody was teaching that. It was Pilates to pop music. Very dancy on the mat. And so I recorded this 10 minute video, uploaded it to a website called YouTube, and it was meant for the 40 people, but turns out there were thousands of views and hundreds of comments and it began this online fitness community. And at the time, I didn't know really that this was going to turn into a brand. I didn't know really what fans were even how to make money from ad campaigns. Like none of that was a thing back then. It really began with the intention to serve my students. And what's really interesting is that today I still do the same thing with the clothing and the products that I design. But anyway, so starting in 2009 and I at the time was Also designing a yoga bag because I could not find a stylish way to take my yoga mat, my CDs, my shoes and everything to in front of the gym. And so I went to downtown la. I got some scrap fabrics and put together something really glamorous looking. I'm always for beautiful, romantic designs. So I made something for myself and then I brought it to class and people were like, what's that? I want one. That's how the product journey began. And so side by side, the blogilates YouTube channel growing. And then also the product development behind the scenes, which started with a yoga bag, but then turned into graphic tees that said like train and scene or remain the same. And you know, and these designs were also chosen by the fans on the Facebook fan page has always been so this feedback between me and the fans, this trustworthiness we have between each other, it's always been like that from the beginning. If they want something, I do it. And we really rely on one, one, we really rely on each other to grow. So anyway, the product development began happening in the background as Blogilates, the fitness channel began to grow in the foreground. And what ended up happening, and I'm jumping all over the place now, is that after posting fitness videos and workout videos for over a decade, it was just a few years ago when I wanted to show a different side of myself and I wanted to show people what I was doing behind the scenes. And it wasn't just making workout routines, it was literally making the graphic designs for these shirts, these yoga mats, these bottles, and literally getting into the tech packs and creating the designs for the clothes. And once I changed my content from fitness to fashion, like that was an inflection point, like that changed our business for Pop Flex. And here I am today with, you know, Taylor Swift, having worn the score earlier this year, which is insane. My literal dream, I didn't even know that this was possible. And then now Blogilates a brand at Target, like, it's just, it's wild. But it all goes back to making sure you are serving your audience and these magical things just happen.
- [04:53]
B
Yeah. And you did things kind of early, early days. Like you look at a lot of creators like Mr. Beast or like Logan Paul and KSI where they've built these massive audiences or communities and personal brands and then they've launched products. But you've been doing this for a long, long, long time. You're kind of one of the, one of the early adopters. But I think it's came from not just an opportunity. But you always wanted to be a designer. You always quite entrepreneurial from the early days. So I'm curious, what steps would you give to people watching this that want to build a strong brand presence from scratch, Want to build a community.
- [05:33]
A
It is really important that you do everything with purpose and with intention. If you are looking to build a product, make sure you are solving a problem. Make sure that this thing that you're putting out into the world is different than the other things that already exist. There has be a reason for it to be. And if you're looking to build a community, you have to be okay being very transparent with them. Like if you, if something good is happening, obviously tell them. If something bad is happening, tell them too. And if you make a mistake, be ready to say sorry and apologize for what you've done. Like, I think that very truthful line of communication is something that's extremely hard to build. And it comes with the good and the bad. You're gonna get the good and the bad with it. But if you are a real person and not just a faceless brand like that is how you build this community. It's the trust.
- [06:28]
B
What's also interesting about you is, is Cassie is Blog Lardis. But then Pop Flex is still you, but it's, it's a, it's more of its own brand. Can you talk us through the thinking there? Because you could have just kept building out the Blog Lattice brand, right? So talk us through. Why did you start Popflex? Like how did that transition? You could have ran it's all through Blog artists.
- [06:53]
A
No, yeah, that's very true. I mean, to be completely honest, I wanted to wear a brand that wasn't my screen name. That's why he came up with Poplar and so that's how that came to be. Interestingly enough though, Blogilates ended up becoming a brand at Target because that was a very connected thing between brand, person and product. And so Target wanted to make sure that it was Blogilates that was the brand there. So it's wild that it started. Yes, Cassie Ho is Blogilates, which is honestly, I think it is confusing to a lot of people who don't understand the entire journey. And then it became Pop Flex and then now it's back to Target and it's both. And so I, I think this navigating how there are two different brands and how they're different is something that I'm going to have to begin to explain a little bit more. But for the most part, Popflex is the performance based activewear. That's how it began. And Blogilates is more of the fitness based equipment product at Target that is more affordably priced.
- [07:58]
B
So talk us through your first year with Pop Flex, because that was like starting a brand from scratch, right?
- [08:03]
A
Yes, that was starting a brand from scratch. In the beginning people were very excited and they had thoughts of, okay, you should expand the size range and do this and that. And because I am someone who really listens to that, them. I, I forgot what the range originally was. I. Oh, you know what, it didn't include proper plus size. So in the second and third time that we launched, I wanted to include include plus size. But that is when things started going down because I do not have an education in technical design and I did not truly understand how the body changes proportionately as the sizes get bigger. And I launched plus size but it just wasn't fitting quite well. So that was a little bit weird. And then I went back, was working with different technical designers, trying to figure out, okay, like, let's fix this. And then the next one, the fit was like a little bit too loose, just like across the board. Then I did another launch and everything was a little bit too tight. And like, honestly I think it was like a few years into Pop Flex we had lost trust with the community and these are people who were just really supporting me, supporting the journey and just felt like, I'm not going to spend money on this because I don't know what I'm going to get. And like, that's very valid and fair. But it got to a point where I was about to quit everything. And it wasn't just the fit that was throwing everything off. I would say there was toxicity within the team, toxicity online, where people were just dragging me for different things, dragging me for the way that I looked in my fitness videos. And just like all around the energy was really, really negative. But the wild thing is when you get to such a rock bottom point and you think everything's over, you just have to crawl out one more time, really fight it one more time. And at this, I remember in this moment, I wanted to quit Blogilates. I wanted to throw away Poplar and just end everything. I felt like I wasn't a good CEO, I wasn't a good designer, I wasn't a good creator. I had lost my backbone and I had lost trust in myself. But my husband, who's also my business partner, he told me, cassie, just give it 30 more days. And I really didn't want to I was having panic attacks. Couldn't even walk into our own office without my breathing becoming irregular. Like it was bad. And yeah, I mean, yeah, it was bad. And so 30 days, he said, just give it 30 days. And it was within that 30 day period when magical things began to happen. Like the people who needed to leave left. I found a new manufacturer that I really understood my designs and how to help me work through these fit problems that we're having. And like that point right there of trying to survive and just save the business and save myself really. Because without me knowing what I stand for and without me feeling confident, there's really nothing left. Right. So that point really was an inflection point for the business. And over the course of the next like few years, Poplex began to gain all that trust back that we had lost. And that's interesting too because that's talking about Poplar the product, not Blogilates the brand or Cassie Ho. So it was, it's always two things that I'm, I'm trying to, I don't know, like grow at the same time, be at the same time. And because poplux and Blog are so intertwined, I don't know, I, that's why I feel like I, I am the brand, the brand is me. But now there are also two brands. So things I'm just trying to figure out.
- [11:37]
B
Yeah, yeah. So it's a journey. So can I love to kind of delve deeper Because a lot of people would just assume as a creator, if you have such a large following like yourself, like you have a massive, massive following, tens and tens of millions of followers across all different social platforms. Most people would think that it's just easy. And you know, I, I've done my research on you. Like you, you've sold out like all product in like an hour type scenario. Most people would think, oh well, it's just easy. When you said that you had to save the business, was the business under financial strain or it was more you and, and kind of your own self belief and all the, all the, all the difficulties that you, difficulties that you were facing that perhaps made you thought you, you perhaps should give up.
- [12:30]
A
I mean it begins with me not having faith in myself and all the things that are happening around me. When you feel like you're not supported by the right team, it just really feels impossible. And then you begin to just think you're not meant for this. So that was the first thing I needed to say, which was myself. But of course at the same time, if we're seeing sales go down, we're losing trust with customers, returns are going up. Like, yeah, the business was also financially like going down. So everything was going down. So that's this survival moment was really about me and the business all intertwined into one. Because it's really one of the same sometimes.
- [13:10]
B
Yeah. And when it comes to kind of, I guess, the manufacturing piece, that's something that's really intimidating for people. You said you found a new manufacturer. How did you. I'm less concerned around the how you found the first one. But how did you find this new one? What did you do?
- [13:27]
A
You know, this one. See, this is why I say that this 30 day period, somehow magic things happen because I got an email. If I'm incompletely honest, I just got a random email from a manufacturer. And normally I ignore these things. I get so many of them. But of course I'm like in this vulnerable, vulnerable, desperate place. So I just like, I actually threw together something that wasn't like a typical tech pack. I was like, okay, like the sketching, blah, blah, blah, here you go. Like just, let's just see what you can do. And the first samples that came back were actually really good. And I was like, oh, okay, we might have something here. So that was really by chance. But before that I was looking for manufacturers like anywhere going on Alibaba.com, like just writing like a ton of people, just trying to figure things out. The thing with manufacturers is you don't, you don't know who you're gonna get. And before there was the Alibaba, I had traveled to China to go to the Canton Fair to try to find a manufacturer. There's like a lot of ways to do it, but you never know quality or the relationship you're going to build until you are in the thick of it. And so it's important to really test out a bunch of different people in the beginning as well through the sampling process.
- [14:34]
B
So if you could highlight, I guess when it comes to starting a new brand, what would be the top three priorities? When it creates like comes to like starting a brand from the ground up, what would they be?
- [14:47]
A
So number one, your product has to have a reason to be like, why are you making this? Don't just make something that already exists. Really add value to the world by making something new. So that's number one. Number two, you have to build trust with your community. If you're gonna do, say that you say you're gonna do something, literally do it. And number three, listen, really listen to what the community wants because they feel so seen, so heard, and also really grateful when you do listen to them and deliver on that product. I really think like those three things have created such a tight knit relationship between me and the customers and the fan base over the past. I mean, if we begin even with blogilates in 2009, it's always been like that. In the beginning, maybe it wasn't a product like a new sports bra, but like it was a product of a specific workout that people wanted. They wanted something new and different as Pilates to pop music. And then the trust was built through them doing the workouts and getting the results and also having a good time while doing it. And then the third thing was listening to them. Anytime they said that they wanted something, I would actually do it. And so those same three things, no matter what I'm doing, I'm always making sure that my audience feels heard.
- [16:13]
B
Yeah. And when it comes to pop Flex as well, you guys are known for unique designs, functional designs. Can you walk us through your creative process for designing pieces that are stylish, versatile, but also unique? Because that's a common thing that people face when it, when they want to start an E commerce brand. There's so many competitors out there, it can be quite intimidating. You, you know, you look at these other brands, you look at these other creators, like, how have you been able to create products that stand out and are different?
- [16:46]
A
So everything really just starts with how I'm feeling. Like to be completely honest, if I like something, I'm just going to go for it. However, a lot of times I think the more concrete answer here is also if I have a specific problem, then I'm going to solve it for myself. So it starts there. And luckily for me, because I am also like the demographic of our customer and the fan base, my problems are also their problems too. And so when I am able to talk about this, it's very, very relatable. What was your original question again?
- [17:19]
B
Oh, how? How? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Creating products that stand out, products that are different.
- [17:25]
A
Yes, yes. Okay. So it starts with solving a problem. But for me, you can't just solve the problem, you gotta solve the problem and make it cute. This is essential for me. And so I think that just comes from my personal aesthetic. What I like, my style is very romantic and feminine. And so when you add that on top of all the function, it just creates this and saying magical. So many times in this interview, but just creates this like amazing intersection that weirdly, you don't find Too much out there, because there's the fashion that, you know, really stops you in your tracks. And you're like, ooh, that looks like art, but then it doesn't have pockets. And then you have the stuff that looks really functional, but then it literally looks like it is only function. So marrying those two together is something that I personally value a lot and seems like a lot of other women value as well.
- [18:14]
B
Yeah. And I guess for new brand owners that are looking to enter a space that is, I guess, pretty saturated, would you say to start building your personal brand first or start building the product first? Because your personal brand is a big part of how you've been able to stand out in the marketplace because you have such a strong relationship and such a. A incredibly large and loyal community.
- [18:46]
A
I think it's about building the product first. Because if you even think about Me Starting Blog Al In 2009, the product was the workout video. They got to know me and my personal brand through my instruction and through my teaching. So that naturally happened along the way as I was blogging more, talking about my life, and just cooking with them and stuff like that. But you have to start with providing some type of value to your audience. I think that's where it begins.
- [19:15]
B
And when it comes to, I guess, balancing aesthetic appeal versus, like, also with performance, that can be challenging in activewear, how do you navigate that balance? And are there any lessons that you could share around prioritizing functionality?
- [19:33]
A
I mean, it all goes back to solving the problem. Like, even today, when we are designing a product, which, by the way, can take anywhere from one to two years or longer. From the moment you sketch it, I sketch it all the way to it being on the website. If there isn't a clear why behind the product, it doesn't move forward. And I really honestly didn't realize this until I began making content for my products. I think around pandemic time, something like that. I think that's when I switched from fitness videos to fashion videos. And I noticed that the videos that not only went viral because they were entertaining, which, by the way, I didn't realize that these videos talking about my products actually sold until it started happening. It was entertaining, it went viral, and also it would sell out the products within hours. It was insane. And so now I know that what makes a successful video also makes a successful product. It's these talking points. It's the why behind the design. So that's the most important for me.
- [20:39]
B
Yeah, that's really interesting. I'd love you to unpack That a little more. So you, you start to make a switch with your content and there was probably a little bit more of a straight through line to then, you know, if, if like going off and purchasing the product because that's, that's the main focal point of the video. But you've created a lot of videos now that have gone viral and you said that like you started to work out, you know, how to focus on the product and the why and then the, the, you know, then products would sell out really, really quickly. I, you know, I can hear my audience tapping me on the show saying, Nathan, you got to ask her, like, how does she do that? Like what? Is there any lessons that you can share around the short form videos that you do create or even long form, longer form videos?
- [21:30]
A
Yeah, I'm going to take it a step back real quick because I think it's important for people to know why I switch from fitness to fashion, because that is a kind of a weird thing to do. Now. Even though I had been designing this entire time, it's beginning in 2009 in the background, I had never made it the forefront of my content because people wanted the workouts and you know, they still do. It's been a few years since I've done that. But the truth is, mentally, I was no longer feeling challenged with the workout videos and just me, my personality is, I constantly want to be challenged and growing. And I just felt like after like thousands of videos showing people how to do a double leg lift, like I, I was kind of done. And at the same time, a lot of body shaming videos about my body being attacked online, I just was really over that at the moment. So I was like, I need a hiatus from the workout industry, the fitness industry, and I'm gonna go show this other part of myself that really makes me happy and brings a lot of joy to me. And so it was so cool that when I posted one of my first videos talking about the science behind fashion, I think it was talking about, why does camel toe happen? It actually went very viral. And that wasn't even selling anything. I was just talking about leggings in general. And then I began to formulate it into like product by product. Now what has, what I've now learned after a few years of doing that is that it takes a lot of time to make one of these videos. So it may seem like an easy 60 second video. Okay, guess, guess how much time you think it takes me to make one of those. I don't even know if you want to Guess maybe I should just tell you. Oh, okay. Not that bad. It takes me 10 hours for 60 seconds. And I edit all my own videos, I film all my own videos. I don't even write the voiceover. I honestly edit the entire thing and then I'll voice over at the end. And so 10 hours for one of these, and I do it all by myself because I spend up to two years on one product in every single fitting and it feels like my baby. So by the time I release it to the public, I want to be the one to tell its story. And so that's why I do that. Now, is this a sustainable way to live? For me, absolutely not. I don't sleep, so I need to figure out how to make that work. But I really do find so much joy in the development journey and also in presenting it to the world. But yeah, content takes a lot of time, especially when you really care about the product that you're trying to release. And for me, like, it's so fun to create some of these things and in some cases invent things. I now have a few patents under my belt that it's just like so cool to be able to introduce these new things into the world and tell people the why behind it. Because I've noticed that sometimes, for example, on the Poplar page, if we release something super new and I haven't talked about it yet, I will notice some comments where people are like, ew, what is that? Why did you make that? And then because I'm still in the process of editing my video, it goes up like two days later, three days later, and then all of a sudden the product sells out because we were like, okay, I get it now. So people love to know the why behind the design if they're not used to something. I can understand a barrier to want to purchase, but I think people are very open to understanding as well.
- [24:55]
B
What is it? What is the through line? Right. Like each of these product videos that you do do, do you have a formula? Is there something formulaic that you could share? And then also what, what is that process of creating that video? What are you doing over that ten hour period?
- [25:11]
A
Yeah, so what I come to learn is, especially with TikTok, now you gotta start off with a hook. I'm sure you heard this a million times, but my hook is something that's very relatable to the person. It begins with the problem or even me acting out what the problem is. Right? Like, you know, you're doing a squat, but your underwear showing. Okay, very relatable you're pulling up your pants, but now you get a camel toe. Very relatable. So starting off of that shot really gets people to be like, oh yeah, yeah, I get you. And then what I do is I show all the features that are in this product, but I don't reveal the product until towards the end that people are watching most of the way through. And it kind of like builds up excitement and anticipation and then I reveal it. And that is pretty much the 60 second video. It sounds simple, but the thing is I don't, I don't write scripts and this is just me. I'm not saying I recommend this for other people, but because I am the designer and also I guess the marketer of the products. On my page, there is a marketing team for the Popflex page. I'm just talking about the blog lotties page. Everything is just in my head. And so what I love to do, I just do my hair, makeup, I go set up the camera and I just start filming. So I end up with a lot of footage. And then my, I guess what you would call the. What is it called? The, the usually people. Oh, storyboard. My storyboard actually just begins happening as I'm cutting the footage and I'm just mixing it back and forth. It's kind of crazy, but I just do it on my phone on like in shot or cap cut. I'm laying on the couch and I just am going like my finger here and there, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. And that just takes a really long time. So I would say filming can take anywhere between like, let's say filming is like three hours editing, probably like six hours or something like that, depending how difficult this is. Oh, and the sketch, the sketch sometimes can take 30 to 40 minutes and then the voiceover is probably like another 30 minutes. But then there's adding in the, the words on top the caplan, then writing the caption, then uploading it. Oh my God. Uploading it to TikTok, IG reels, YouTube shorts, Facebook reels. Like, it's just so insane. But you have to do it because it's different, different people on different platforms. But lucky for me, I'm so lucky that I can post the same video on all of those platforms. And generally if it does well on one, it does well on the others. However, I will say TikTok for the past year has been really dodgy. You don't know what you're going to get. And IG has been a lot more consistent. YouTube shorts, also a lot more Consistent. And Facebook, I just post there, but you know what's really going on on Facebook.
- [27:52]
B
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That's a great breakdown. Thank you. And I think there's some, like, I know you say like, you know, you've probably heard this a million times around the hook, but these basics are often forgotten for many, many, many, many people. And it's. It's quite intimidating as well for many people to create a video or create a product video. And I think there's some. There's some really great actionable takeaways for people. So thank you. And also, like, it's. Even though it is 10 hours and it sounds like it is quite cumbersome and a bit of a drain, it is worth it if you sell out your product in like under an hour, right?
- [28:33]
A
Yeah, no, 100%, it's worth it. And I think what I need to figure out is like, man, like how. How do I be a content creat, but also the CEO and head designer of this company as I'm building out two brands? It's really not sustainable. And this is. These are things that I do worry about because I know that the reason why a lot of this works is because the heart and soul are there with every product. So if I'm not there from the beginning, the conception of a design, how do I even speak about it two years later, one year later? I think that is all very genuine and authentic. And so for me, I just needed to figure out, how do we scale while keeping the soul intact? Yeah, that. That's the right issue.
- [29:16]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk about like business scale, you know, financial growth. Like, can you share how fast the business has grown or any key milestones or turning points with both of the brand's journeys?
- [29:32]
A
Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Well, for Popplex alone, over the past five years, we have doubled in sales year over year, which has been really, really cool and of course, hard to do every we grow. And we are currently an eight figure brand for Pop Flex and also an eight figure brand for Blog a lotis at Target. So it's just been wild how. How well things have been going, but it's been extremely hard to keep it up, like I said, while keeping that soul and heart with everything. Because I want to be al in everything. That's the problem.
- [30:11]
B
Yeah, I understand. Because your passion project, right, These, these are, these are passion projects.
- [30:16]
A
It's my passion. I mean, it's. I feel like it's my life purpose. Like, I know that sounds really insane, but my parents Having grown up Vietnamese, Chinese, American, my parents wanted me to be a doctor. And they said, you cannot and will not become a fashion designer. And so that, you know, as painful as it was, having been told that when you're, you know, a preteen and a kid, it created the. The environment for me in my head to want it so bad that I was going to fight exactly for what I wanted. And like, I have this now. It's in my hands. And so I. Every day I feel so grateful that I get to live this life that wasn't supposed to be. So I'm having a lot of fun, but I'm also dying.
- [30:58]
B
So talk to me about Taylor Swift's endorsement, right? She was spotted wearing a Pop Flex skort and demand search. Talk me through that. How'd that come about? Did you send the product to her? Was it organic? Like, Talk us through.
- [31:19]
A
Oh, my goodness. First off, I have been a fan of Taylor Swift from the beginning. Teardrops on my guitar. Like, I. My dream. My only, like, celebrity person that I ever wanted to wear Pop Flex really was Taylor Swift. She's my favorite. She's helped me through a lot of heartbreak. So I love her as a fan. And so I remember on April 19, 2024, I was getting my roots dyed and my phone was off. It was a Friday night, it was like 7:30pm or something like that. And then my phone starts blowing up. Like, what's going on? And people were like, taylor Swift's wearing a score. I'm gonna do Taylor Taylor. I'm like, what? What are you even talking about? And then I end up watching this YouTube short that she posted and it was literally a 0.3 second clip of her wearing the score with the pickleball racket going like that. And sales started to go insane. So on. On the brand and sales size, that was crazy. But on the Cassie Ho, just as a Taylor Swift fan from the beginning size, I was numb. Like, I couldn't even scream. I couldn't even do anything. But it's. It's so incredible because no, we did not send it to her. I do not know how she got it, but I will say we did some digging to try to figure out, like, okay, which one was the order. And like, I think, like, I think I know which one it is. I'm not going to give away the alias name. But on the, on the order where she bought a. A size small corset bra and a size small digital lavender pure wet skort, I saw some other products on there. I Noticed that this order had 13 products. And if you're a Taylor Swift fan, you know that 13 is her number. So I was like, is she communicating with me without saying something? Now I've never, like, talked about this as I'm. I want to protect her and whatever, and I'm not gonna say, like, say what the name is, but I had a feeling this was her. Little did I know that this was confirmed when I saw her wear more of our stuff in other videos, and it was the same stuff from that order. So I was just like, oh my God. And so it's really, really cool to, you know, to. To have. To have someone that really, like, actually likes your brand. And I mean, Taylor is a billionaire. She can afford whatever she wants to. The fact that she likes the quality and likes designs, like, makes me really, really happy.
- [33:52]
B
So I'm curious, like, when you said sales were blowing up, like, can you share any kind of detail? Like, how many, like how. How much product would you. Did you run out of product?
- [34:02]
A
Like, I would say within the first few minutes. The. After the IG account, Taylor Swift styled, like confirmed this was a Pop Flex score. We sold out out of like 400 or so units within a few minutes. So that was just, just the digital lavender score. Then because people couldn't get it in that color, we sold out all the other scores within the next couple days. And that was probably like 5,000 plus units or something like that. And then we were like all out and the energy was still there. The. The people wanting the thing was still there. And we had done something we had never done before, which was we put the digital lavender score on pre sale and it ended up getting 20,000 pre sale, which is insane. 20,000 units of one color. So that was cool. And I think one, we wanted to make sure that the Swifties could get the color that they wanted and they were willing to wait to get the same thing that Taylor had. But two, because this particular skort has had such a history of being duped and infringed through, you know, Shein and a bunch of different vendors all over Amazon, Temu, AliExpress, everything. I wanted to make sure that we would be the ones who got the sale and not these like dupers. And you know, of course, after all the attention that we got, the duping went insane. Like it already was happening, but it just got to a whole nother level. And what's interesting too is that earlier that year, on my birthday on January 16, 2024, I got issued my first patent ever for that pirouette skort. And of course a few months later then Taylor is wearing that same skort. And so in my head, in my head I have a conspiracy that Taylor Swift knew how important this skort was to me because you know how she's very protective of her music and you know, the control she has over her masters and things. And so in a way, perhaps maybe she saw that struggle that I had and by her wearing it, it just meant the world to me in so many different ways. But that particular design was. I mean, I just can't even believe that it happened. So. Yeah.
- [36:14]
B
So did you DM her?
- [36:17]
A
I. I did videos and I tagged her. Did I DM her? No, not, not like one on one was. I didn think she would write me back, but I, I did many videos thanking her and so hopefully she saw those.
- [36:34]
B
Yeah. Okay, that's awesome because this story that you're telling me reminds me also of the other week we interviewed the founder, Will. Will Ahmed, the founder of whoop. You know, you know the, the fitness. Yeah. And he told, he told the story to me around how they partnered with Cristiano Ronaldo. Right. Super famous person, most followed person on the Internet and how he ended up investing in whoop. Renaldo invested in Whoop was. They saw that he was wearing the product and they DM'd him, got in touch. And that, that sometimes is a, is a common thread. That's just why I had to ask. But yeah, no, look, what a great story. Thank you for sharing.
- [37:18]
A
Oh my God, of course, of course.
- [37:21]
B
So, so we have to work towards wrapping up. I could, I could talk to you about products, building brands all day, Cassie. But I guess I'm curious as well around user generated content and that whole play in promoting Pop Flex. Like how do you encourage customers to share their experiences? And for entrepreneurs starting their brands, what are your top tips for. For building a community online, Getting people to share, create content for your brand.
- [37:55]
A
So this one's a little bit different than maybe other brands you've talked to. We have an influencer gifting program where we'll reach out to people and we'll just send product to them, never asking for anything. Because I've also am on the receiving side of getting stuck and so I know how it feels, how good it can feel to have a brand notice you and just want to send you something as a gift, asking nothing for return. And so that's what we do. And amazingly people will just post and that's just really cool. And so we'll Repost the stories and things like that. And oftentimes when we are looking, for example, we know like a Disney marathon is coming up or something. Okay, so we'll look for different influencers who run or love Disney and then what ends up happening, which is so cool, is that those influencers will just post and sometimes they use an affiliate link or something because again, this is not like a transactional relationship. I want to stay away from that for now anyway because I've tried these transactional relationships in the past with a brand and the content just never comes off authentic. It just isn't. And I know myself as a content creator influencer. When I'm giving a given a script by a brand, it's never going to sound the same as when you're just genuinely excited about something. Anyway, then we started noticing so many people wearing our pirouette scored in dresses at Disney just like Disney bounding or running. And so it creates this like amazing little like butterfly effect like in different areas that we target. So that's on the influencer space. However, I will say a different way that we do user generated content, but not really user generated, but we go into the fan base and I love working with our community because they're so passionate about the product. And we will cast women of different body sizes and hold what we call a content house day and invite them into our office space. And we just, we film, we put the same, the same product on nine different bodies, all different heights so that people can really see, oh, I can see myself like what I would look like in that. And not only one, is it great for the customers, two, the fans who are involved and of course they're getting paid and everything. They're having a great time, they're making friends. I have a great time if I'm there, the team is having a great time with the energy is just so good. And so in that way we're going back into our fan base and creating our own user generated content. Because this stuff isn't like highly produced or anything, it's honestly just an iPhone and we're just putting on music, we're playing around, we're dressing up. It's just so much fun.
- [40:36]
B
So yeah, yeah, I think that's a really clever way to create a feedback loop loop right around. You know, I think the clo when it comes to starting any, any e commerce business, the key is the product right. You've got to get the products right. You talked about solving the problem, you've got to solve that problem. But then You've got to be close to your customer, and the closer you can get to your customer to speak, learn, listen, and then go ahead and implement and keep refining your product is so incredibly important because that's how you build a bigger business, right? Getting your product better. And it. It's not like, you know, your first version, your product is so different to your 20th version, but you have to get to that 20th version, which takes years and years and years and years. But that's how you continue to grow. Right. And I'm curious, how else do you have that feedback loop? Because I think that's an important part of how you're able to build these brands is you're constantly listening to your customers. Customers.
- [41:34]
A
Oh, constantly. I mean, even in the. The fit room. Our design office is in Atlanta, Georgia. And there we cast for women of different body types, boob sizes, different heights, and we're testing literally new designs in development. That's no one. No one has seen before on women of all sizes. And so I do not want. And I've done this in the past where I'm thinking, like, okay, I'll just add a couple inches here, whatever. We'll release it. It'll be fine. It's not fine. Like, we have to test everything in the development process. So we hired directly from our fan base, and we'll pay them to be fit models to come in and, like, give us feedback. And it is so important. And it's not just the feedback on, you know, is this tied or whatever. It's like, okay, well, how do you actually feel in this? Like. Like, do you feel more confident? And, like, it's really interesting to see this, because what we see in the fit Room ends up being in the feedback we get. There will be the feedback that we get in public once it releases. So, yeah, always. We're always hiring through the community because they already care and they want to have a say in this journey as well. On the product journey.
- [42:44]
B
Yeah, I think that's clever as well. So we have to work towards wrapping up. Talk to me about sustainability. Sustainability is rising in priority in fashion. It's. It's. It's something that you see more than ever now. You guys are addressing environmental concerns in production materials. And what challenges have you encountered in this shift?
- [43:08]
A
Well, I mean, if I'm being completely honest, the best thing to do when it comes to waste is to not buy new stuff. That. That is just complete honesty. But I am in the fashion business, and I'm creating new things, so what I can do Being in this industry is make sure that I am making quality product that lasts. Because all the stuff we're seeing on Amazon, Shein, like these things break down after one or two wears. It's insane. And people get bored of it because it's just trendy. And so it ends up, even if you give it to Goodwill, probably ends up in the landfill. You don't know where the stuff is going. So for me, making quality product that lasts is extremely important. Two, we also have this thing called Pop Cycle that's in the Blogilates app where fans can post product that was pre loved or maybe just didn't work out for them and sell it to other fans. And so that's the reusable, like refashioned part of the business that people want to do that and I don't make any money off of that. It's just a place for them to trade and, you know, reuse clothing. And then with our packaging, we, I believe, yeah, we are all the packaging is 100% recycled materials for shipping bags and the poly bags that the clothes come in, the garment bags, they're made from corn fiber. And so if it doesn't end up in the right place, at least in a short amount of time, it will biodegrade and not leave like plastics everywhere. So I'm trying my best. I'm trying my best and always, always trying to learn different ways to be more sustainable. What I think would also be really cool and something that I would love to get into is trying to figure out how to turn things that are excess or trash into textile. For example, I was visiting Tulum a couple years ago and I noticed there's this huge issue now with seaweed or sargassum, and it just litters the entire beach with this smelly seaweed. And the hotel workers end up having to, you know, crate them around, put them in the forest, burn them. I mean, like, what if we could figure out how to turn that seaweed into textile? So these are things that I'm constantly thinking about because just waste in general makes me feel so, so terrible. So I'm trying to do my best. And it's hard being in the fashion industry because like I said at the top of this, the best thing you can do is to not buy anything new at all, ever. And that's the most sustainable. Like being like our. Being like our dads who wear the same shirt on the 80s. That's the most sustainable.
- [45:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, I, I understand. And you talked about copycats. How are you dealing with that? You Said you painted it. But like, yeah, that, that is a challenge as well, because that's a, that's always a concern as well for people that are brand owners, copycats and stuff like that. What, what's your take?
- [45:57]
A
So patenting has been helpful. It obviously doesn't get rid of the problem entirely, but it is very strong. And so in the beginning, when these random brands were stealing our photos and of course design I could try to take down because of copyright infringement for the photos, but then that's not that strong. So anyway, after like a year of working on the patent, when I now tell Amazon, hey, this is patent infringement and you have the patent, it takes a down print like pretty quickly, which is really cool. Same on Temu, AliExpress, TikTok shop. The patent is extremely powerful. However, it doesn't stop people from stealing your model photos and in some cases even just morphing the model photos or videos using AI, so that now the system is confused and they no longer think it's copyright infringement because the face is different and the colors are different. So it's a rampant issue. Every day is whack a mole. But what I will say, because this, in the beginning and today still, emotionally, it's very taxing for me because I put my, my entire heart, soul and body into this design for one to two years or sometimes more. And then after, you know, someone sees, oh, there's a little bit of success there, let me take a little bit of that. It's very painful to, to see that happen because it really feels violating. It feels like you've been stolen from. What I can say is that all I can do is be ahead because these new ideas, these new inventions or innovations, they're right here in my head. And so they can follow me, but they can't lead me. That's one thing. And then secondly, something that they will never be able to replicate is that community. Is that trust? Sure, they can copy the score, but you're not going to get. And for a consumer that cares about this stuff, you're not going to get everything else that surrounds that. But different consumers want to pay for different things. So it's an interesting space. However, I will say that fashion infringement is one of the most gray when it comes to legal. And I think some change does need to be made in the industry because from what I've seen, all the work is put on the victim of the infringement. For example, like me, our company, to take it down. We have to prove that we have to take it down. And it is so easy even for these random, random vendors to copy my video, post on TikTok shop, run a TikTok ad, bring all those clicks using my video over to their website, and what ends up happening is sometimes people think that that website is my website because it's using my face, and then they'll come back on my page and blame me for bad quality. He scored. It's very. Yeah, it's very warped and weird. And in the end, being a brand that isn't like a huge household name, like, it ends up hurting me because people will just think, oh, yeah, Cassie made that, that score. But it wasn't. They were stealing everything. And now the blame is on me again. So it's weird. It's a bad problem.
- [49:01]
B
Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure things will get better.
- [49:04]
A
But.
- [49:05]
B
But, yeah, look, at the end of the day, though, it's like you said, they. They can't copy your marketing, they can't copy your community, and they can't copy your innovation. Right. Like, I'm sure you're gonna have plenty of other incredible products. You said you've only got a few patents under your belt, but I'm sure you've got other incredible products that you're selling. And. And so what other incredible products that you're working on to change the game?
- [49:32]
A
Yeah, I do want to say with the copying of the marketing, that has happened too, and it has created confusion. There is this brand called Halara, and they literally copied the way that I filmed. Even hired a model who looks similar to me, filmed in a similar background, and fans started writing me and asking if Halara was my sub brand. And so the copying of the marketing isn't hard either. They can do that. That. But yes, innovation, that is something that they, you know, I gotta stay ahead. I gotta stay really close to the product and just really be on top of what people are feeling and what they want. And also what I want.
- [50:13]
B
Yeah, I agree. So, a couple last questions, two more looking at how far you've come. If you could give one piece of advice to yourself at the beginning of your entrepreneurial journey, what would it be? And then also, what are you excited for next?
- [50:31]
A
For sure, my one piece of advice to my younger self would be don't rush. I have made so many mistakes when I rush through something. And you really just got to take your time, work through the little problems that might happen because they're gonna happen. And it's better for you to figure out now than to have the fans or the customers tell you that. This is an issue, so don't rush. But at the same time, and this isn't advice for myself because I like to go really fast. But I've talked to other entrepreneurs who take don't rush the next level to the level of they never come out with anything, so don't do that either. Like, take a little risk. Like, that's okay. You're not going to think of every problem beforehand. Get it out there and see what people think. Because all the things you're anticipating in your head may or may not happen either. So it's a nice balance of those two. But for me, it would definitely be don't rush another thing that really is really important. I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur, and I did not realize how different being a leader and being a manager were until I was faced with the issue. And it is something that you just. It's so painful when you don't get it. And I went through that during that toxic thing that I told you about earlier in this interview. You got to surround yourself with people who really believe in you, believe in the product. And I would tell myself, don't just hire for skill. You gotta hire for. You know, this is such a. Everyone says it's culture fit, but really, you actually have to get along with the people that you're building this brand with, because it's like, we're on this ship together. We gotta move forward together. We all have to want to move in this direction. If you don't have the right people around you, you lose yourself. And that's what happened to me in that moment when I wanted to give up. I was around the wrong people and it affected my mentality and the faith that I had in myself. So, yeah, those are three things. Not one thing I have. Seems like I have a lot of things to tell my younger self. And then as for what I'm excited for, actually, this is the first time I'm talking about this to a person because everything's been so internal. Okay, so I am launching a second apparel brand, and it's going to be launching on December 28th in all target stores. It's going to be the Blogilates apparel line, and it is activewear at a really affordable price, which is so exciting because the fans have been asking about this forever. Forever. You can look through almost any video that I post, and people will be like, can I find this at Target? And you can't, because it pop Flex. But now I'm launching Bloglides at Target, and I'm really, really, really, really excited. It will help. It'll make the, the clothes more assess. Accessible to more people.
- [53:22]
B
Yeah. Wow. Exciting. Well, thank you for sharing this. So look, Cassie, this has been an incredible interview. You've been very, very generous with your time and also your experience and the lessons learned along the way as a creator, then really kind of a fully fledged founder, as super successful, successful founder. So congratulations on all of your success thus far. Thank you for taking the time to give back to our community. This was a fantastic interview. Thank you.
- [53:53]
A
Oh, thank you, Nathan.
- [53:54]
B
Hey, guys, if you love this episode, make sure to check out this interview with Scooter Braun on how he identifies talent that could go on to find wild success like Justin Bieber and Ariana Grande. Justin Bieber was the most talented, gifted kid I'd ever met. It was so insane how great of a singer he was, how soulful he was, what he could do on the drums, naturally taught himself with guitar, drums, like he was a phenomenon. And we met at the perfect time.
- [54:23]
A
In both of our lives.