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The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan
561: $300M Worth of Facebook Ads Advice in 45 Minutes | Jordan Menard
00:43:22
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- [00:00]
Jordan Minard
The best ads are ones that are shot first person narrative on an iPhone. However, most people can't just open their phone and bust out an amazing ad off the top. So a really simple format for this. It's four steps. The first step is grab attention, something that is directly going to break the ice and engage with the viewer to stop the scroll. The next step is.
- [00:21]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, that's really clever.
- [00:22]
Jordan Minard
He's a master of performance marketing. With over $300 million in profitable ad spend, scaling brands to 7, 8 and 9 figures. His name is Jordan Minard. If you want to someone, the best way to do that is make creative that talks to that person. Once you have that angle, distill it through all three ad types. Big narrative ads, bumper ads, static ads, talking about that angle. And if I only had $1,000 a day to spend on Facebook ads, half that would go to image ads.
- [00:48]
Nathan Chan
How do you work out if it is an offer problem or a creative problem?
- [00:52]
Jordan Minard
The best offers are the ones that make you feel stupid for not buying where you see it. And you're like, oh, dude, that is such a good deal. How do I pass this up? But when you get further and further, further down the, what you'll find is hear the stories, learn the proven methods and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship. Welcome to the founder podcast with Nathan Chan.
- [01:22]
Nathan Chan
You've spent conservatively over $300 million on Facebook ads. Specifically, profitably. What is the number one thing that people are missing when it comes to scaling Facebook ads?
- [01:34]
Jordan Minard
Yeah, I think that the number one thing is that they're looking to Facebook to scale their ads. They think that the scaling happens in the ads manager now. It does, right? Like you increase budgets and that's its own art. And we can talk about that as we go. But so much stuff, the inputs that you put into Facebook are really what let you scale. And so I think if brands really want to scale on Facebook, they need to figure out what offer is going to give them an incredible conversion rate or an amazing cac. They have to really understand their numbers, right? And not just numbers like on Facebook, but like overall numbers, right? Your blended CACs, your blended MERS, your CAC to LTV, kind of those business numbers that really make the business ticket. And then finally you gotta have great creative, right? It is a creative game. I remember the days of like Tim Bird's bully method, right? Like back in 2015, 2016, you could take an image ad and do a bid cap with, you know, 3x the CPA and that thing would just print Money. It was, it was so easy, man. Poor went out. I miss those days. Nowadays the game has changed, dude. It's way more difficult, right? And creative is really what, what matters, right? Creative is going to be the big differentiator. So I'd say once you really get your business down right, you understand what your, your KPIs are. You've created an offer that will give you a CAC that generates contribution margin for the business, but is also something that you can buy at scale. Right? Like if you need a $14 cac on Meta in 2025, you're probably not going to get it, right. It's probably not going to work. So I think once you get all of that part of the equation, right, and then you get some amazing creative that's, you know, regularly being pumped into the account, then you get to the fun part, which is like actually scaling the campaigns inside of Ads Manager, but the biggest stuff happens before that.
- [03:44]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. And when it comes to like the numbers in the unit economics, you need an aov of what, 60 to $100 to be able to make anything meaningfully work. You would say.
- [03:56]
Jordan Minard
Yeah, I always like to tell people, like, figure out how you can absorb at least a $50 tack.
- [04:02]
Unknown
Right?
- [04:03]
Jordan Minard
Like at least a $50 cac. Alv is a little bit different because I think there's a lot of different models that are going to allow you to have a lower aov. For example, if you have a high continuity subscription program that has a 120lt lifetime value in six months, you can pay a $60 CAC on the front, even if the front end offer has a $30 AOV.
- [04:31]
Unknown
Right.
- [04:31]
Jordan Minard
Because as long as you can cash flow it, you're going to make profit in six months. And so obviously cash flow is a very key thing there. But I don't think the AOV is as hard of a role as a lot of people say it is. But if we're looking for something like that, I would say figure out how you can absorb a $50 cac all day, every day at scale. Scale. That's a great jumping off point.
- [04:54]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. And you said that oftentimes people come to you because they want to scale their ads, but what nobody talks about is changing up the offer. Can we talk through that? Because so many people, they look at Facebook ads and they go, yep, my Facebook ads aren't working. I need help. I need to know what is the tactic, what is the tweak? And you have a totally different approach.
- [05:20]
Jordan Minard
You know, we don't do any Advertising we don't do. I don't even have a website, to be honest. The reason people come to us, it's purely word of mouth, right? And so they're brands that are doing a million dollars a month who want to get to that nine figure run rate. And most of them think that they just need my help on Facebook ads. And there's, you know, we definitely have a great offer on Facebook ads. You know, my, my media buyers are really good. We live and breathe this stuff. Our track record speaks for itself. But more often than not, there's stuff that has to happen first in order for the ads to really scale. And that's mostly the offer. I think the offer is probably the most overlooked yet critical part of the acquisition equation. And you can find the biggest wins by testing it.
- [06:11]
Unknown
Right?
- [06:12]
Jordan Minard
And one good way to kind of look at this is like a lot of image ads on Facebook are essentially a cool picture of the product and the offer. 20% off, buy one, get one free, free shipping, right? It's literally just the offer that the ad, that's the ad. And that kind of shows you that if you were to change what is being offered and just change that text, the exact same ads can convert way better. Way better. So for example, with, with one brand that we worked on, it was subscription centric, right? So it was all about the subscription. And they were selling a starter kit for month one and you paid more for the starter kit and month two on the subscription, the price would go down. And so the first thing I did was I was like, hey, what if we switch this? What if the price is way lower on the front end and then it renews at a higher price? And the founder was like, but we have this, this starter kit doesn't. The cogs don't support that, right? We don't. We need to like cover the cost of those things. I'm like, it depends on what your goal is. If you want to try to squeak out a dollar on the first order, maybe. But if this increases your retention rate by 10%, then in six months we're going to have a way more profitable business and we're going to be at seven times the scale. So that's what we did. We changed the offer up front, we lowered the price of the welcome offer and then had the continuity at the same. And it completely changed everything. I mean, literally everything. The CAC was way different. We actually, the CAC actually fell so much that even though we lowered the price, we actually had a better contribution margin. So we lowered the Price on the. On the front end, but we actually had a better contribution margin because we lowered CAC more than we lowered the price. And that's the power of a good offer.
- [08:18]
Nathan Chan
So we're in a creative game when, if a new brand comes to you, so someone that's starting a new brand, let's just say they haven't even had their first sale. What should they be thinking about when it comes to that offer?
- [08:35]
Jordan Minard
So the. The. The first thing that I always say is, like, make it irresistible. Rabba Raheel and I were talking about this, the CMO of Fermont, and he said that the best offers are the ones that make you feel stupid for not buying where you see it. And you're like, oh, dude, that is such a good deal. How do I pass this up, right? And that's what the best offers do, how to create that. It's so dependent on what the brand is. But I would say, like, start experimenting with different offers that you find super compelling. If you look at a brand like Diff Eyewear, for example, eyewear is probably one of the most competitive, crowded space filled with absolute goliaths, right? Massive brands with infinite marketing budgets, tough place to win. Diff had a buy one, get one free offer that literally turned them into an $80 million brand in a few years, right? And they rode that offer to win in a space that's really, really tough, all based off that, that buy one, get one. And so what I would encourage people is find a way to craft something that has so much value in it that it's almost irresistible and test a few different offers, right? Test different stuff. Does buy one, get one convert better than 50% off? They're functionally the same thing to the brand. But which one converts better? You know, is it, you know, buy two, save more? Is it a flat 20% off? Is it free shipping? There's a bunch of things that you can do to kind of craft whatever you think is the most valuable thing and then test it at low budgets. What we'll find is there's going to be one offer that just does way better than everything, right? And it's usually very easy to notice this when it happens. And that's how you kind of found your hero offer. Once you find your hero offer, that's going to be your. Your main acquisition arm, right? Make a bunch of creative promoting that hero offer, and then make sure you infuse the offer onto the pdp.
- [10:56]
Nathan Chan
When you talk about creative, once you've got that good offer, right? Talk to Me about creative. Like you've said, the best performing ads don't look polished, they look homemade. Why, why do you think that is?
- [11:08]
Jordan Minard
A few reasons. Number one, we, we advertise on social media, right? Keyword social. So when we go to social media, we're anticipating seeing people in their environment. We're anticipating seeing real people doing real things. When we see something very polished, highly edited, really professional, I think especially younger generations, our brain just instantly turns off because we're like, oh, that's an ad. That's, you know, it, it. We instantly glaze it over. We rule it out as any type of authentic content that we can engage in. Now I think this is, there is some of this changing right now. I think in the future too, this could change a little bit because, you know, trends always change. But for the past couple years, and I would say still right now, the best ads are ones that are shot first person narrative on an iPhone. It's a person talking to the phone, telling their real story about how they use the product and it was transformative, how it changed their life in any way, shape or form. I think those, those ad types we've seen typically end up being the best performers. And you know, my agency, my creative team has a lot of like high film talent, right? We have incredibly expensive cameras that I bought a long time ago because I thought we would need them. And if anybody wants highly polished content to work well, it's me. I would, you know, I wish we did that. It would give us more of a moat. But at the end of the day, over and over and over, I can confidently say the stuff that works the best is just like influencer content of an influencer talking to the phone about the product or a founder ad where the founder is talking directly to the camera about the brand that they built. In either scenario, they're both that native homegrown iPhone feel, of course scripted.
- [13:11]
Nathan Chan
Can you talk us through the scripting or prompt or how you prompted?
- [13:15]
Jordan Minard
Yeah. So with scripting is interesting, right? Because I think for the most part you need something, right? You need some type of script. Most people can't just like open their phone and bust out an amazing ad off the top. Most people can't do that. So I recommend, you know, cooking up some type of script. However, you don't want it to feel scripted, right? So write the script in the way that you're going to talk. A really simple format for this is it's four steps, right? The first step is grab attention. Start with something that is going to break the scroll and stop people from glazing on by it. Right now it doesn't have to be something crazy over the top, it could even be something as like hey guys, Jordan, co founder of Instant Hydration here. But something that is directly going to break the ice and engage with the viewer to stop the scroll. The next step is kick the bruise. Make people feel the pain of the problem that your product solves right now, however you want to do that, right? But say something along the lines that will make people aware and resonate with the pain that your product solves. The next step is build the bridge, articulate how your product solves that problem, explain a real world use case of how your product alleviates the pain of that problem and then finally call to action. And that's a great place to say the offer, right? For a limited time only, we're doing buy one, get one click somewhere around this video before we run out of inventory again. And so that simple four step formula of grab attention, kick the bruise, build the bridge, call to action is a great starting point for someone who's never done this to kind of write a script that, that follows that format. In regards to influencers, content creators working with people like that, I don't recommend a script because one, it'll, it'll feel scripted, right? And content creators specifically don't like that. It's kind of like, you know, you're, you're paying them based off their ability to make content, but then you're taking away their ability to make content. It's like, I just don't think it's a good practice. So we opt for a brief and a brief is it, it says it importantly goes over the things that you can't say, right? Because legal or compliance, anything like that. And then it just kind of goes over the benefits and the general structure, right? So on my briefs I tell people like, you know, here are three strongest benefits. Pick one of them and tell your story about how the product improved your life. And then from the rest of it, we let it totally up to them. They get to say whatever they want. And after a ton of trial and error, and I don't even know how much money lost on influencers, we've really had a lot of success with this format. It really, really works well. So you know, for stuff that you're doing yourself, or let's say, you know, we use backstage, the actor portal to find a lot of our like ugc, don't use stuff like Billio or stuff like that, it always comes out terrible. Use real actors. And in that, in that context, we'll go with the script. If we're doing influencers, we're going to go with a brief. So that's kind of how we think of the creation element of it.
- [17:00]
Nathan Chan
Are there any other types of ad creatives or types that people should be using?
- [17:05]
Jordan Minard
Yeah, most definitely. So you'll hear this phrase thrown out a lot, creative diversity. And you want to make every type of ad type that Facebook can serve. So we break this down into three main ad types. We have narrative ads, which are the ads that we're talking about. Longer form, someone talking to a camera, the narrator telling their story. And then we have a type called bumper ads. Bumper ads are short three to 15 second videos, no central narration, product centric with motion graphics, text on screen, and then finally image ads. Right, and image ads are great. Don't sleep on those. Right. If, you know, if I only had $1,000 a day to spend on Facebook ads, probably half that would go to image ads. Maybe more. Image ads can get you some of the cheapest cost per conversions out there. They're really good at remarketing. And so for us it is really important to make all of the ad types right. All three of those main ad types. We want to do all of them and then use different angles in every single one. Because Facebook's targeting is now your creative. I remember back in the day where you would make a bunch of ad set budgets targeting different audiences and find which one gave you the best CPA that's out the window. Right. The ad creative does the targeting. So if you want to target someone on Facebook, the best way to do that is make creative that talks to that person. Right. And then once you have that angle, distill it through all three ad types. Make narrative ads talking about that angle. Make bumper ads talking about that angle. Make static ads talking about that angle.
- [18:58]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, that's, that's really clever. So how do you come up and find angles?
- [19:04]
Jordan Minard
I love AI for this. You know, going to a chat, GPT. Um, you definitely for this, you really want to make sure that whatever AI you're using is capable of scroll crawling the Internet. And you give it a link to your product and then you ask it, what are the top five pain points associated with this product? Or what are the top five pain points that this product can help alleviate. And right there, you know, it's gonna, you know, it'll spit out a bunch and typically you'll find one or two. That's, that's really cool. I Think another way. And this way is a little bit more abstract. But when you get further and further, further down the road, what you'll find is that your best ads or you'll have really proven angles. That is like, you'll have angles that you know for certain work. Well, let's say like it's a product that has gut health benefits, right? And you know that bloating is gonna work. You know that bloating is gonna work. Then you can start to play with like, those fun angles that like, Savannah Sanchez is commonly talking about, right? Like myth versus truth.
- [20:20]
Unknown
Right.
- [20:21]
Jordan Minard
That's one that. That always does well for us, right? Like myth. There's nothing you can do about bloating or myth. Only your diet dictates bloating. Truth probiotics can help reduce bloating instantly.
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Unknown
Right?
- [20:36]
Jordan Minard
You can create those kind of like really cool sound bite, easy to digest formulas. Three reasons, right? Those types of, you know, easy to consume ad angles that are not angles in themselves. They're almost like styles and they touch on the big angle, which is like, in this case, bloating. So, yeah, I think the other one, and this is one I think most people know. But reviews, customer reviews, right? They are a gold mine. They are a gold mine. If you are a shopify store owner and you're using like a review widget, I highly recommend, don't auto publish. Make yourself go in there and click publish on all the reviews because it's going to force you to read them and you're going to start finding things that your customers say that you didn't realize.
- [21:35]
Nathan Chan
Talk to me around, like marketing psychology and how much that has played a part, especially around kind of creating desire and, you know, like, really dialing in that piece of the puzzle.
- [21:50]
Jordan Minard
We don't create desire, right? The desire is innate in our customer. Now we can create demand, but that desire is innate in there. It's our job as marketers to bring that desire out and connect to it. And doing that creates demand for our product. And so I think the first thing is really understand who your customer is. Why are people buying your product? And once you start there, you can kind of put yourself in your customer's shoes and figure out like, well, if. If there's a problem that my product solves and they're buying it because they want to solve that problem. What is, what is life like living with this problem? What are some of the things that they encounter and figuring out how to connect with people where they are and harness that innate desire that's in Them, that's marketing, right? That at its purest, highest form, that's marketing. I think that there's other things that you can, you know, there's a lot of data around some of this stuff, but like putting a, let's say you put the MSRP in smaller text crossed out with a bigger price, and it's like a green or slightly different color right next to it. And it's been proven through studies that when people see that it communicates to their brain, they're getting a good deal. There's a higher conversion rate when price is modeled like that. And so I think there's, you know, on a big macro scale, there's that idea of how do we, how do we psychologically engage to harness the desires of our customer, bring them out and generate that demand for our product. And then on a more micro level, those, you know, psychological kind of hacks, like how our pricing is laid out, how our bundles are created, that can make a big difference.
- [24:03]
Nathan Chan
How do you work out if it is an offer problem or, or a creative problem?
- [24:08]
Jordan Minard
There's a few telltale signs. One are you'll scale to a certain point, and you just can't get beyond that.
- [24:15]
Unknown
Right?
- [24:16]
Jordan Minard
You just cannot get beyond that point. Another thing would be you're consistently getting like an overwhelming majority of your ads that you will launch are way higher than you can afford to pay on a result basis.
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Unknown
Right.
- [24:34]
Jordan Minard
I think both of those things are going to give you a signal that you need to change the offer. And when you're changing the offer, I think there's a few different ways that you can do it.
- [24:47]
Unknown
Right.
- [24:47]
Jordan Minard
The first one is a discount, and that's the most popular one. It's the most widely known one. And that's great. But there are so many other things that you can do to really make the offer exciting. If you look at someone like athletic greens, right. The free gifts that they give away on the first purchase.
- [25:07]
Unknown
Right.
- [25:08]
Jordan Minard
Really just a huge value add. And why I like free gifts is going back to the psychology of it. Free gifts, when done right, have a way higher perceived value to the customer than the actual realized cost to the brand. So what they perceive as the value of what they're getting is, you know, 10 to 15 times higher than what the actual cost is. And I think that right there, that concept of arbitraging perceived value versus real value or real cost is where you win with an offer.
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Unknown
Right.
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Jordan Minard
When you build up that perceived value while, you know, keeping the same or reducing natural cost to the brand is when you get that big unlock. And what we found is once you get the offer right, you'll notice it immediately. It's a day and night change in the ad account. And oftentimes ads that you were running that weren't working will all of a sudden start working. When that happens, that's how you know it's time to make a bunch of creative and get, you know, really get ready to start pumping it. So yeah, I think the tricky part about the offer and just speaking on it like very broadly is it is so product dependent, right? Some, you know, offers are really dependent on what the person is selling.
- [26:36]
Nathan Chan
And how many times have you tried historically before you've got it right?
- [26:44]
Jordan Minard
So many, dude, I've, you know, there's, there's been times where, you know, we're on our seventh iteration of the offer and you just feel like you're smashing your face into the wall over and over and over. And it's like, you know, you're going through the seventh iteration of redesigning the PDP to refit the offer. And wouldn't you know it, the seventh one is the one that clicks. You know, we had that with an affiliate offer we were running where we did all. Only thing we did was we added an upsell for 50% off. You got another one of the same product you just bought for 50% off and as an upsell and it completely changed the unit economics of the funnel, gave us a few more dollars on the AOV that allowed us to be profitable on first purchase and it was off to the races.
- [27:37]
Unknown
Right.
- [27:37]
Jordan Minard
But if we didn't go through those seven iterations, we just never would have looked there. So, yeah, I think, you know, there's like a fine line of trying to make something work that can't work, that you kind of just have to know. But then on the flip side, you know, you really only lose when you quit.
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Unknown
Right.
- [27:58]
Jordan Minard
So, you know, on the offer side, like test, right. And what I like about offer testing is, you know, so quickly, right, because you have your baseline, you launch a new offer, you're like, oh my gosh, the conversion rate is like 15% higher on this offer, right. So instantly it's going to give you those strong signals. It happens in a couple days. But yeah, it's, you know, I think if you talk to like affiliate networks, one of the biggest thing that they'll do when they onboard a new brand is they really go deep on the offer, right. What's the best offer that we can offer? And so, yeah, I think if you believe in the brand, you believe in the product, then it's, you know, don't be afraid to keep trying, right? Give it five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten tries. You know, as long as you're just, you know, you're being smart with it. But yeah, I, there's been a lot of, lot of long nights and a lot of frustrating days trying to crack offers for sure.
- [28:56]
Nathan Chan
You said something interesting before that I have to pick up which was around free shipping. Right. Sometimes removing it. Right. Can actually improve margins. But it's often seen as a no brainer. Talk me through kind of that offer economics piece.
- [29:13]
Jordan Minard
Free shipping is one of those things that because it is so taken for granted now in the post Amazon world, the perceived value and the actual cost is actually lopsided against the brand. As in oftentimes the perceived value of free shipping to the customer is, is lower than what shipping costs to the brand. So start there, right? Number one, that is true, right? That is, that is reality. And then to an easy way to test this is add a threshold to get free shipping. So spend X, get free shipping. Instead of just offering it for your lowest product, make it, you know, spend, you know, let's say you have a 25 AOV, you know, spend $50, get free shipping. You know, I would bet that would not hurt your conversion rate but it would probably help your aov. And so I think especially for lower AOV products and if it's like a one time purchase, I would say definitely you, you might be losing on the perceived and actual value. Trade off with free shipping at, you know, at best, right. If you're not just going to take it off entirely, create a threshold, right where you, you buy X amount then unlock it. So yeah, I think that's one that's like taken for granted. Everyone just assumes that you have to do it. But there's a lot of value reexamining that.
- [30:46]
Nathan Chan
What about aova? How can people effectively increase iov?
- [30:51]
Jordan Minard
I hope everyone watching this like hears this. And if you are not running post purchase upsells, you are leaving money on the table, full stop, no questions asked. You need to run a post purchase upsell. It's not a question, you have to do it. The easiest post purchase upsell is more of the same, right? So let's say they brought, they bought your shampoo, you know, in that sense maybe a conditioner, but if not, then another bottle for 30% off, right? So offer them another one with a steeper discount because you've already done the hard part of acquiring the Customer, it's post purchase. There's no risk of losing the sale. If they say no, it's our it's already going to go through. So adding another a post purchase upsell, more of the same is always the easy go to, right? And give the biggest discount you can afford. As long as you're still getting some contribution margin. Don't be afraid to give a big discount there on the post purchase upsell. The other one is bundling. If you have common sense products, then a bundle gives you a really good opportunity to make a killer offer because you have more contribution margin. Because they're buying multiple products, you can afford to give a bigger discount. So the key thing with bundles is it needs to be significantly cheaper than if you were to buy the welcome discount on each individual product, right? So let's say each individual product is running like a classic welcome offer of 10% off. Then if you buy the bundle, you get 20% off or you get 15% off and then it's a real win win. It's a win for the brand. The AOV goes up, the contribution margin goes up, but the customer gets a better deal. And so those two are the biggest things, right, that get nail down your post purchase game. You know, I recommend for, for some brands, do a post purchase upsell a second post purchase upsell. If they say no to the first post purchase upsell, do a downsell.
- [32:55]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, and look, when you add upsells down sells, you can really like adding that can change the economics to really make Facebook ads work, right?
- [33:10]
Jordan Minard
Massively. We added a low ticket upsell post purchase to one of the funnels that we're running with the brand. And originally the upsell was more of the same and it had a really low take rate.
- [33:27]
Nathan Chan
What was low?
- [33:27]
Jordan Minard
Sorry, it was like 6% or something. It was pretty low. And so we added a lower ticket item as the first upsell instead of more of the same. And something crazy happened. Not only did you know the first upsell take rate go to 15%, right? So it more than doubled, but the second upsell actually had a similar take rate as it did before. We put the lower cost upsell first. So it was like we didn't even lose anything. And that added probably $12 per order back to the bottom line. It was a game changer, right? It like completely changed everything. And then it's like, you know, imagine you have $12 on your CPA that you can add, right? You go from a 55 CPA to a 67, right? That's a Game changer. That's a complete game changer. So stuff like that, you know, you've said it so well. It's. That can have such a massive impact on the entire equation from the unit economics of growth. But I feel like it really gets overlooked.
- [34:42]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. And that's the game you got to play if you want to get to spending over a million dollars a month profitably on paid ads, 100%.
- [34:52]
Jordan Minard
And something that we'll see with really high scale accounts. Um, and this is something that I've seen, you know, I've seen it enough times to where it's like a pattern recognition for me now. Like, when I see this, I know that we're about to really go. And what will happen is we'll find what I call like the natural cac, right? And that number is like, let's say we're spending, let's say we have a $40 cac and we're spending 30k a day. And we bring spend up to 40k a day and cac goes to 40, 50, right. So it goes up like $0.50. That is where we've realized, okay, that, that $40 cac, we're going to be able to really, really push hard on that number. And then, you know, CAC does go up as, as you scale, but the difference is huge. Right? It'll go. CAC will go from 40 to 42, and we'll add an extra 30k a day in ad spend.
- [35:59]
Unknown
Right.
- [36:00]
Jordan Minard
And finding that, finding that number is so key. Right. You'll find that number. It'll almost kind of lock in where you, you notice I can spend a lot more and CAC doesn't go up very much, then you can start mapping out, okay, well, if we, you know, if we get, if we add two more dollars onto cac, you know, how much growth can we afford? And that'll kind of like map out how you take it from, you know, because I, with Facebook ads, I think there's different, like thresholds that you get to. And one of those is like, at a million dollars a month, 30k a day, most people can't get beyond that.
- [36:35]
Unknown
Right?
- [36:35]
Jordan Minard
Getting to the 50k a day, the 100k a day, that's where it gets really tricky because oftentimes your offer's locked in, your creative is good. It's like, how do you, how do you break through that threshold? And part of that is understanding, okay, where, where is that natural CAC where we can really scale? And then if we add a couple bucks to it, what's that going to do to the amount of growth that we can get. And that's how you kind of, you know, teeter, totter up to, to spending a lot of money.
- [37:03]
Nathan Chan
You said something interesting around, like, you can go to the moon effectively, but like, what about creative? Like, how much creative do you need to be putting out per week or per month to be able to spend $100,000 a day?
- [37:18]
Jordan Minard
The other day I saw some like Twitter guru saying that you don't need creative to scale and that the more ads you put into the account, it like increases fatigue. And I just thought that's the biggest load of BS I've ever seen. Every brand that we're spending, you know, 100k a day or more, they're testing hundreds of ads a month. Hundreds. A founder that I worked with said ads are market share, right? The more ads that you have in the ecosystem, the more market share you have. I thought it was a cool way to look at it. If you're going to be spending 100k a day, you need to have a ton of ads. But more importantly, those ads need to be going after different users. You need to have different messaging. You need to have a truly diverse creative set that's going after a lot of different angles, a lot of different pain points, a lot of different messaging to really connect and scale. And typically what we'll see in accounts that are spending six figures a day or more is a lot of the spend is allocated on a handful of ads, let's say five or ten, right. So they'll be like in, in one ad account I'm looking at right now, we have 313 active ads. I would say 80% of the budget is on seven of them.
- [38:47]
Unknown
Right.
- [38:48]
Jordan Minard
So a vast majority is pumping all of these ads and the rest are in testing and scale, you know, whatever. But in order to find those seven, we had to test 300, you know, and that's just the reality of it. And what I'll tell people is it's like baseball, right? If you make 10 ads and three of those are bangers, you are a Hall of Famer, you are printing money. You're going to be a very rich person, right? If you fail 70% of the time, but 30% of the time, you're crushing, you are going to go all the way to the bank. And so if you need a, you know, if you're going to be spending a lot, there is simply no other way, in my experience, than making a ton of creative, all different types, influencers, founder, ads, narrative Ads, bumper ads, UGC, statics, all of it. And they all work together.
- [39:47]
Unknown
Right.
- [39:48]
Jordan Minard
I think something that some people will do is they'll look at an ad that is getting a lot of spend but has, like, a higher cpa, and they'll turn that off. Terrible mistake.
- [40:00]
Unknown
Right?
- [40:01]
Jordan Minard
Terrible mistake. That ad is doing. It's prospecting. It's finding new customers. And then that image ad that you think is doing so well, it is doing well, but that's because it's a remarketing ad.
- [40:14]
Unknown
Right.
- [40:15]
Jordan Minard
And Facebook remarkets, even if you tell it not to.
- [40:17]
Unknown
Right.
- [40:18]
Jordan Minard
Go into your ad account. Have you ever seen a frequency of one? No. Doesn't happen. And that's because Facebook is always remarketing.
- [40:25]
Unknown
Right.
- [40:26]
Jordan Minard
I bet. I bet most people's frequency would be between 1.5 and 3.
- [40:30]
Unknown
Right.
- [40:31]
Jordan Minard
So on average, your ad is. Your ads are being seen, you know, two times by every single person. And so understanding that relationship of ads that are prospecting and really good at finding net new customers and then ads that are coming in and cleaning up or marketing, getting that bottom of funnel is super important when you're. When you're architecting an account.
- [40:50]
Nathan Chan
I want to ask you one last question to leave our audience with. What's the one thing that people should focus on to guarantee an ad success?
- [40:59]
Jordan Minard
Ads that are boring suck. They get. People get bombarded with so many ads. I think it's very easy to forget that, like, make good, engaging, interesting content.
- [41:14]
Unknown
Right.
- [41:15]
Jordan Minard
And if you focus on making things that are genuinely actually interesting, you're gonna have a hard time failing, especially if you have the right framework of, like, understanding that you're gonna, you know, you're gonna strike out seven times. But if you get three winners, your. Your hall of fame, if you focus on making authentic, original content, you're going to be in a great spot.
- [41:39]
Nathan Chan
Well, dude, thank you so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for giving back to our community, creating this incredible program on our platform. And, yeah, we're just getting warmed up.
- [41:51]
Jordan Minard
Let's go, man. Thanks for having me.
- [41:52]
Nathan Chan
All right, so if you love this episode, make sure to check out my interview with Alex Hormozi on how he scales companies from zero straight to $2 million a month in less than a year.
- [42:04]
Alex Hormozi
You were like, how have you achieved? Like, there's five years of my life that disappeared. In fact, I lost all the money, which I talk about in the book. I had all the gyms. I did the turnarounds, and then I had zero dollars, five years later because of mistakes that I made. But the things that I was gaining was not the money. It was the skills. It was the character traits and the beliefs.