← The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan
The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan
567: The Tiny Challenge Model - The Easiest Way to Get Your First 5 Clients | Richmond Dinh
00:45:44
Loading summary
Transcript144 lines
- [00:02]
Nathan Chan
Hey, founder fam. I want to talk to you about something super exciting. We're officially partnered with Omnisend, the email marketing and SMS platform built specifically for e commerce founders. We've been recommending Omnisend to founder students for a while now because it just works. Whether you're launching your first store or you're scaling to seven figures, it really helps you automate your marketing and get real results. Did you know on average, OMNISEND customers make $68 for every $1 they spend, which is an insanely good return. And because you're part of the founder community, you get 50% off your first three months with the code FOUNDER50. Just head to omnisend.com founder without the e to get started. All right, now let's jump back into the show.
- [00:49]
Richmond Din
Hear the stories, learn the proven methods, and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship. Welcome to the Founder podcast with Nathan Chan.
- [01:03]
Nathan Chan
Hey, guys, Nathan Chan here. Welcome back to another episode of the founder Podcast. Today we're joined by Richmond Din. He's come down all the way from Sydney. This is his third trip to Melbourne. Here in the studio to talk about everything. Selling coaching services, getting more clients. Launching a digital product business is the absolute master of teaching people how to launch digital products, how to just get more clients, but then also how to do challenges. And he's got this incredible model called the tiny challenge model. I think it's game changing and if you want to launch a digital product business, you're going to learn a lot. So tell me, like, how did you get into selling digital products online, like, and doing coaching and consulting and services? So this is a pretty hot space now and there's a lot of people coming into this space. There's a lot of people that want to know how to get clients. They want to know how to sell their, their services or their digital products. But how did you get your start?
- [02:04]
Richmond Din
You're right. Like, it's a really hot space because it's so easy to get into the lower barrier entry. But it's not the reason why I got in as, you know, like being Asian descent, become a doctor, a dentist, an optometrist, a pharmacist, a lawyer, or a failure. And I don't think, well, no offense, if you're an optometrist watching this, but I don't think many people say, when I grow up, I want to be an optometrist. Like, it's a kind of weird profession to want to become. And. But I was that for 10 years because I was pleasing My parents and doing the good boy thing, the cultural thing. But I always knew that it was something more for me and I just didn't know what it was. And then I started getting life coaching and going to Tony Robbins and stuff. And I realized maybe this is what I want to do. Maybe I just want to help, help people, you know, discover their purpose and all that. So I fell into the whole digital space through that avenue because I just did not want to become an optometrist anymore. And I think most people watching this will be like, well, maybe they're going through a change or a season in their life, but they're not sure what the next step is. They just know this is not their calling. And I just went on this mission eight years ago to try to find what my pathway was.
- [03:09]
Nathan Chan
And there's a lot more to that story because I remember you telling me and, and like you were down to your last dollar. So tell me about that. Yeah, this is a good one.
- [03:18]
Richmond Din
Thank you for bringing it up. Yeah, I actually haven't, I don't think I've ever told this story publicly like this, but before actually. So I did all the right things. Went to uni, valedictorian, high school ducks, got one of the top of marks in, in optometry, biggest award that I could get. Became a self made millionaire in my 20s, bought 12 properties, did really well. And then you know, when you, when you don't have a purpose for money, money has no purpose. I didn't have a purpose for money and so what was going to do with all the money? So I became reckless with it in the sense that I thought, well, this didn't really fulfill me. And the next three properties I bought, I bought high risk mining town properties because I just thought, well, because I could have cashed in at one point, I could have cashed in and done really well and thought why if I cash in then what? Because I didn't have any purpose for money. And So I bought three mining town properties and then within six to 12 months the whole industry collapsed, which means the properties collapse. I had $1.4 million in debt that couldn't be serviced because they weren't getting rented. And suddenly that leverage led to me almost going bankrupt. When I say almost going bankrupt, I was actually seeking bankruptcy. So I was going to go to, I was seeing insolvency practitioners going to bankruptcy lawyers seeking all my options and I had $50,000 cash in my bank. And when you go bankrupt, you got, they're going to take it all and so what do you do when you're about to go bankrupt and you've got 50k cash? Well, you can't buy a car because they have to sell the car. You can't buy an asset because they'll sell the asset. And I'm. I wasn't. Like, I don't gamble. Like, I don't. I'm gonna go to Las Vegas and, you know. You know what I mean? Like, and I'm not, like, I'm gonna spend it all, like, on drugs or like, that wasn't me. So I decided to spend it the first. The first 5,000. I decided to spend it on Tony Robbins. I'm like, okay, well, may as well just learn about myself. I don't know. And I remember walking out of that event and I bought the upsell, which was a $15,000 program, and, well, I got to spend my 50,000. And then that led me down the road of. Hang on a sec. Maybe I don't. Maybe this is not my destiny of going bankrupt. I. I started. I started to find the belief that I could get out of any hole that I put myself into. And then I started reading books on people who were down to the last dollar and got out of it. And then I realized that bankruptcy was me just giving in. And then I got life coaching, and I invested. Another coach was $25,000. And basically my whole 50,000, I invested in myself. And the byproduct of that was believing that I could get my way out. And that after that whole year process, at the end, I said, I'm not going bankrupt. I'm going to find my way out of this. And how I got out was leverage. Got me in that mess, and the only way was to get out was leverage. But I basically built up the belief that could get out by starting a business, because I was. I was paying $60,000 every year, negative to the properties I couldn't service, and I was only earning $120,000 a year. And I had a family. And so it was only a problem because I wasn't earning enough. See, And I thought that was the biggest distinction. If. If my properties were only costing me, say, $3,000 a year, I'm earning 120. I wouldn't care. I would still be an optometrist. But it's all relative. Like, that debt was only a problem because I wasn't earning enough. And I thought the way to get out of this is just to earn a million dollars a year. That sounds simple, but actually, that is a smart Idea so I could go bankrupt and still be on $120,000 income as an optometrist or could find a way to earn a million dollars a year where the $60,000 wouldn't even matter anymore. And that's kind of what I did. That's why I went into business and became entrepreneur and got into coaching. So, yeah, I did spend all my lifestyle on myself. Yeah.
- [07:09]
Nathan Chan
That's crazy. So I'd just love to delve a little deeper on that story. So in your 20s, you were buying investment properties. Like how did you work all that piece out?
- [07:21]
Richmond Din
Self learning. Self learning. I didn't invest in mentorship. I bought. I bought this book called Seven Steps to Wealth from John Fitzgerald. That was my first book. Back then there were info infomercials, you know.
- [07:31]
Nathan Chan
Yes.
- [07:32]
Richmond Din
And he was the guy. I kind of read a bit of his book and I just kind of understood the philosophies of, you know, the Australian property market by 10 years later doubles draw the equity out. Like it was simple maths to me.
- [07:44]
Nathan Chan
Yes.
- [07:45]
Richmond Din
And so it's felt simple, but obviously there's more to the game because I made a lot of mistakes.
- [07:50]
Nathan Chan
Yes.
- [07:50]
Richmond Din
Yeah.
- [07:50]
Nathan Chan
Yes, yes. So. So you were still an optometrist and you were just doing that on the side.
- [07:56]
Richmond Din
Yeah, it was my way to get out. Yeah. Because I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I didn't want to be uptown for the rest of my life. So I had to figure out a way to create income to. To do something. But it's funny, when I got there, I didn't know what I was going to do with it. That's the problem. Money doesn't have a purpose if you don't have a purpose for money. And so. And I had no purpose for money. And so I got there and I didn't know what to do. And so I just did dumb stuff with it. By this free mining town properties, didn't cash in, didn't have a plan and didn't have a purpose. Didn't know what was going to do in my life. So I knew that was a bad thing to do intuitively. But I just thought, well, what else I'm going to do with my money? Let's just give it. Let's just roll the dice and see where it takes me, you know, that was, that was the situation.
- [08:39]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. Okay. So eventually got into the coaching space and you start to get into the digital product space and yeah, you quote, unquote, have a. Was it six Pete? Seven Pete?
- [08:54]
Richmond Din
You Watch the trading.
- [08:55]
Nathan Chan
Yeah.
- [08:56]
Richmond Din
Michael Jordan's six championship rings. Who's that NFL player? He's got seven.
- [09:02]
Nathan Chan
Tom Brady.
- [09:03]
Richmond Din
Tom Brady. He's got seven. I don't think anyone in history has got an. We've got an 8P now, an 8bit. So since then, eight years ago, we've launched eight courses. And every single course has been successful. When I say successful, it's made six figures or more and some have made multiple seven figures. So we've never launched a course since I started that has failed. And that came from the very first course I launched, which was called Bamboo Life Coaching. And, and, and that was, that made like 495,000 from just life coaching. And then we had my passion, profit. So we've, we've just, I don't know, at this point, probably wouldn't call it luck, but at the time I probably were like, oh, that's pretty good. Let's try it again. Let's try it again. So that's, that's where the AP comes from.
- [09:47]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's something you always remember, right. So it's really clever. So, so obviously you have a process, right? And for many people watching or listening to this, it seems like a really lucrative space, right? And it's, it's massive. You see, you know, school, you see wap, you see kajabi, you see all these different platforms. Teaching how you can make money online by selling a digital product, you make 100% margin. It's mainly profit, obviously. Pros and cons to every business model. Right, but talk me through kind of, what does it take to launch a successful course? Like, because usually in these businesses you have to be a personality, right? You have to, you have to have an audience, you have to have a following, right? So talk me through that. And you've came up with them, you've come up with a model that allows people to bridge that gap, that you don't have to be a super well known personal brand or have a huge following to, to generate or to make, you know, 5, 10, 15, 20,000, like to generate a decent, decent income from selling a course or selling a coaching program or all these things that are. Right, so talk me through that.
- [10:55]
Richmond Din
Yeah, good. This is a great question. And it's, it's really to get yourself out of the vanity matrix. Of course everyone feels good when they have a million followers and it feels good when they're semi famous or it feels good when you know, they're around cool people. And those are the metrics. But those don't really necessarily make you money. Or we all know someone that's got a million followers, but they're broke, you know, and vice versa. Someone's got 10,000 followers, but they're crushing it. So getting out the vanity metrics, number one. But this, I guess it stemmed from my first mentor, Scott Harris. He said, like Richmond, if you got more, if you can count more than, more than, more than close friends on one hand, then you've got too many friends. You only need five exceptionally close friends and who you spend time with, who you become. And I thought, wow, that's so powerful. Because I used to grow up thinking, I want to be Mr. Popular. I used to envy people who had 100 friends, 200 friends. I used to envy people who have a birthday and they got 300 people there and my birthday's only got six or seven people. But then I soon realized and, and I know as you grow up, like five really close type friends, the power of that is 100, a thousand times, a million times more powerful than having 100 acquaintances or 100 people who don't really know who you are. And when I realized that the strengths are in the quality of small relationships that you have. And I call this your loyal 100. When it comes to coaching, you can build a million dollar business by just having a small amount of raving fan clients who just buy anything because they trust you so much and they're on the journey with you. And this is how we develop the tiny challenge model based on the concept of you can go big by just starting tiny. And I would rather have 5, 10, 15, 20 clients who would just vouch for you until the day you retire or that you die, rather than a million people who think you're kind of okay, you know what I mean?
- [12:46]
Nathan Chan
So how'd you come up with this and talk me through how it works?
- [12:49]
Richmond Din
Yeah, and this is like. So we were, we were helping our students, you know, get clients online. And we were teaching, like, what I was doing. Cause I was doing group challenges and all that. And someone were getting results. Someone learned. And for me, the number one thing in business, because I think you asked, like, what's the most important business is being obsessed with your client results. Like, client result obsession will drive everything. And so to get clients online, you can run a webinar, you can run a masterclass, you can run a virtual event, you can run a workshop, you can run a group challenge, you can do a podcast, you can do so many things. But when you're starting, all those things are Overwhelming because it requires setup, skill, connections, a following, speaking, leads, marketing, sales, all those things to do. And when you're starting out, number one, you don't have those skills. And number two, it's very overwhelming on which one to do. And if you do it, you're not going to do it well, so it flops. So I asked myself, like, what's the fundamental, most basic thing a beginner coach can do to make money online, which does not require those skills at all. And at the time everyone was kind of doing group challenges, you know, 20, 30, 50, 100 people. I know you got thousands in yours, which is crazy, but to a beginner that's very hard. And I thought, well, what if they just did a one on one challenge with them and one other person? That would mean they don't have to market it, they don't have to fill up a room, they don't have to worry about the tech, they can just do it on their phone. If they're not good with zoom, they don't have to worry about the skill of speaking because they only speak to one person. They don't even have to worry about selling much because reciprocity, so reciprocity is so high and that does a selling. They don't even have to be super clear on the niche or the messaging because they can just get clear on it through that anyway. And it's just removes all the stress and all the overwhelm from getting started. And that's how what is called a tiny challenge was born. Just through the simplicity of let's just start small and have a strong raving fan base and go from there. And that's, that's what was created out of that couple of years ago.
- [14:54]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. So if somebody wants to get their first five clients, you recommend the tiny challenge model.
- [15:01]
Richmond Din
Yeah, it is the easiest, simplest way to get started. You don't need to, you don't need a big list. So let's just say you put a, you know, you just ask five people that you may know or put a post out or something like that and they say, yeah, I'll do a one on one, five day challenge with you. One on one, one on one, 30 minute calls. That could be 45 minutes.
- [15:19]
Nathan Chan
One on one for free. For free or you charge?
- [15:22]
Richmond Din
Not for free. I would recommend for free because you can charge. But then you got to go through the whole process of they're justifying what they're paying for. Remember, nobody knows who you are, you're just starting out. It's one on one for free. And I know why people want to charge though, because it's like, what if I get a tire kicker? What if I get a time waster? And I'll give you analogy. So. So in the personal, I mean in the personal training space, like most personal trainers, you go to a gym and they give a free 30 minute discovery session, like a free 30 minute training session. If you love it at the end, they pitch you. Yeah, 10 sessions for 6, 700 bucks. Yep, that's the model. And they'll probably need to give out 10 free sessions to sell one package, to sell a 700 program.
- [16:04]
Nathan Chan
Yeah.
- [16:05]
Richmond Din
Imagine the personal trainer gave out a five day, one on one challenge at the gym to one person rather than just a free 30 minute session. Right now, at the end of those five days, that personal trainer is going to know everything about that person. What have they tried, where have they found, what are they willing to do or not willing to do? What are their diets like? What's the environment, what are their, what, how do they like to train? Are they a morning person, night person? What's their biology? Like the goals, the aspirations, everything about them? At the end of those five days, they've been held accountable. But they get this one thing that they don't get from one session. They get progress. And for the first time they got progress that they never got before from a five day one on one challenge. With the accountability at the end of that, that personal trainer can pitch them a 2, 3, $4,000 program for 12 months to hit their goals if they're a woman. I just want to fit into that dress again that I had before kids, because since I had kids, I could never fit into that dress again. Boom. Mary, in 12 months time, I can get you there through what we've done today. How does it sound? Two and a half thousand dollars, $3,000? They're like, I'm all in. Because you know everything about them. There will be no more broke personal trainers. But to what we're talking about, time wasters. If someone approached you at the gym and said, would you like to do a five day, one on one challenge for me, I'm not doing it unless I'm ready to get my ass beaten up that week, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's like, oh, do I really want this? Yeah, it's like that. For a five day, like, you know, mindset challenge or confidence challenge or whatever challenge it is to do it one on one, it takes like, whoa, like that's so you actually weed out all the time wastes. There's no one going to your five day tiny challenge to waste your time. Because it's like, I'm not going to do a five day fitness challenge. If I didn't want to sweat that week, I, you know, I'm going to be.
- [17:53]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. And you'd feel guilty.
- [17:55]
Richmond Din
Yeah, well, yeah, of course.
- [17:56]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah.
- [17:57]
Richmond Din
The reciprocity is so high because it's so tailored. And when you're starting out, the, the biggest lack of clarity you have is I don't even know what I'm really teaching. I'm not really sure on their pain points and I actually don't really know what they want. And they tell you everything they want on call number one. That's part of the framework. And then you know how to craft the days for them and you know how to craft an offer. Exactly, exactly to what they want. And if you did that five times, you're going to get three people that buy. The conversions are so high because you're tailoring the experience. And let's just say you got 10 people doing a tiny challenge and you convert three, four or five people and you got a $3,000 program that is your first $15,000 online. And you never needed to learn how to speak, never needed to learn the tech. You did not have to have a big list. You didn't have to have a brand. You didn't have to be clean, your niche or your messaging. You didn't have to do a launch. What day should I start? It's convenient. You just start anytime, any day. Just grade on the five calls because there's no should I launch? What about Christmas? What about Easter? What about long weekend? All that kind of stuff. The flexibility is huge.
- [19:02]
Nathan Chan
And so this is what you help people implement. One of many things. And I think it's a such a clever model because I can see all the barriers where people get stuck, right? You've got to start a podcast. Like in all these different things, you've got to build an audience. But the way that you do could be just friends of friends, right?
- [19:22]
Richmond Din
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or even just do a post and if they've got one person that liked it, there you go, you got your first tiny challenge. Like, you don't. If you got a hundred likes on a post, you'll be overwhelmed because it's potentially like, now I've got a lot of people that actually want to do this. Where do I even start? So that's a good problem, but you don't need that problem.
- [19:41]
Nathan Chan
So if we Just rewind a second. For anyone that's watching this or, or listening, thinking about starting a business in the digital product space, but they don't know what topic or they don't feel confident enough to coach or teach. They don't feel like an expert. Like what? Like, because that, that's a common thing. Yeah.
- [20:01]
Richmond Din
100. Yeah. So they don't feel like an expert. They don't feel confident that the only way to get clear on what you want to teach is actually go out there and just teach it. So for example, I think most people starting out have maybe an idea of what they might want to do. So they may be like, you know, I'm a corporate woman. I could coach corporate women. I'm also a single mom. I could do that. I'm also like a victim of abuse. I could do that as well. Like, I'm just, I could do all of them. Oh, you know what? Like, I come from an Asian background. I could coach like Asian moms. I'm not sure. And so they've got like three, four, five options. And the awesome thing about running a tiny challenge is that you just pick one from every avatar, run a tiny challenge to each of them. There's no risk because you're not doing a big launch, you're not doing a marketing ad campaign where you think of your message, right? And guarantee after doing three or four different avatars, you will know which one you want to coach. It's so safe, it's so risk free. You can get started. And at the end of the day, like, I mean, you're giving out five calls, one on one for free. And even if you're not super clear and confident what you're doing, you get the feedback from the first person and you might get a testimonial and you'll learn something about yourself throughout that process. There's no risk, risk free way to do it. Because imagine doing to 10 people, like, that's scary. But one person, it's all good.
- [21:21]
Nathan Chan
And what about this industry? Like, let's, let's talk to that. Because one thing I love about you is that you work this out. Tiny challenges from the obsession of client results. But unfortunately, in this space, there's a lot of scrupulous individuals. It has a bad name. Like, like, even, even for fan. Like, we have a coaching program and you know, we have a lot of skeptics. We have a lot of people that come through us and they've been burned and like, yeah, it's easy for people to get started. Like, it's not. It's really tough. I'd love to hear your take on all of that.
- [21:57]
Richmond Din
Yeah.
- [21:58]
Nathan Chan
And, and that obsession with client results, like a lot of people unfortunately don't have that.
- [22:04]
Richmond Din
That's. Yeah, well, yeah, I know. I'm optimistic. I like to think they do. But you're right, they don't. They just. And we've all, we've all been scammed before like pay money and then suddenly there's no deliverables or it's not what I expected or whatever it is. Right. So we've all been there before, I think. I know this might sound weird saying this. I think it's a good thing that you know, the industry has a bad name because there's so many unethical people about it because that means it doesn't take much to succeed. If you have integrity and you're obsessed about client results, you are guaranteed. I say guaranteed, you know, with a caveat. But you are almost guaranteed to succeed because you are so different from everybody else. Whereas if everybody was obsessed with client results, yes, the industry will have a good name but then it'll be harder for you to succeed because everybody's obsessed. So I think it's a good thing that you know, for anyone watching this, they're thinking oh my gosh, like it's such a bad name. But if, if you really just have integrity with that and have that as your primary focus and have this long term approach, then you're going to crush it.
- [23:14]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. So look, it's really rewarding coaching somebody and then helping them grow and helping them succeed and I personally don't do any one on one coaching. I did in the early days. Founder, funnily enough. I remember when was for getting started with the magazine people used to hit me up more than they do now. Funnily enough. Or no, I don't know. Look, a lot of people hit me up now but like yeah, I did do some coaching just for fun and pay the bills and it was more a little bit of consulting and stuff. So it's a really good side income as well. And there's a lot of platforms now that you can go to. Like there's one that I'm on that I just signed up for recently got accepted intro. I'm just checking that out. Have you seen that or a lot lot of famous founders like you, you know the founder of Reddit as an example, he's on there and you can you know, do calls with him regularly for like a couple of thousand dollars an hour type thing like but like, like it is a thing, right? Like more than ever, people do coaching, consulting, and things on the side. But the number one thing I find if you is either you know your skill, you don't know your skill and how you're going to help people, but if you do, then it's how to get clients.
- [24:26]
Richmond Din
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.
- [24:27]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I want to move to the next piece of the puzzle for you is how do you scale? Right?
- [24:35]
Richmond Din
Like that's. Yeah, like, okay, so we clear the time, waste the thing.
- [24:38]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, how do you scale. How do you scale a coaching business? Because you see a lot of people doing it. You see all this stuff with the, with the Lamborghinis, all that kind of stuff. But like, how do you do it? The authentic, real, legitimate. Why.
- [24:51]
Richmond Din
Yes. So, and I just ran a three day event and I introduced this concept called the loyal 100. Like your goal, I believe to remove the stress and overwhelm. If you set a goal to build out your loyal 100. Like Russell Brunson talks about the dream 100, which is like the dream network. I talk about your loyal 100, which is your dream 100 clients. Your first 100 clients that would just. They're raving fans. They do anything for you, they vouch for you. They're your best testimonials. They're the best people to work with. Go, go to build your loyal 100. That's. But that's. So people think of scaling as this is a big thing. But if you have a hundred people paying you $10,000 a year, you're on a million dollars and you're on a very, very good life. You're on a very, very good life.
- [25:36]
Nathan Chan
Margins too.
- [25:37]
Richmond Din
Yeah, huge, huge. Huge. There's not much operational stuff involved with that.
- [25:43]
Nathan Chan
So typically, what sort of margins would you want to run at?
- [25:46]
Richmond Din
Yeah, at a million dollars, you'd be on running 80% margins, easy.
- [25:50]
Nathan Chan
Yep.
- [25:50]
Richmond Din
Okay. Yeah. Especially through tiny challenge, like, for sure. Cause you're not. You don't have to do paid marketing or anything. You don't have to have big stuff going on.
- [25:56]
Nathan Chan
Yep. Okay. All right. So you want to find 100 loyal clients. How do you do that? Like, like what, what does that take? Okay, how do you make, how do you, how do you get clients to be so loyal, obviously, besides getting them.
- [26:10]
Richmond Din
Results like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool. So journey to a thousand miles begins one step. So it always starts with 1, 1, 1 client. And the best way to get a client that becomes a raving fan from day One is what you've done with them before they paid you money. People always give you their time before they give you their money. And there's two things to that. How much time have they given you? But then how much quality time have they also experienced with you? And in a tiny challenge, they get both. They've given you time, but it's been quality time because it's one on one. And there is no bigger baked in raving fan method before the transaction than that. So that's your first loyal 100. And you just do that 100 times and before you know it, it is really easy, really quick. And you still haven't learned how to do the tech. You still haven't learned how to do all those things and big list and stuff. And they'll be raving fans or forever.
- [27:14]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. Okay. So can you manage though, 100 clients just yourself?
- [27:22]
Richmond Din
Probably not. Not all you can, but can you manage it? Well, no. So there's. So, you know, if people are parents, right, having one child is difficult. Having two gets a bit easier when they start, you know, when they're like three and four. Like, you know, the first couple of years is always. But then everybody knows because I got three daughters, the third one after the age of three, it's passive parenting. You don't parent anymore after three, like, because they just all play with each other. So if you got great values, great culture, great leadership and, and provided your kids get along, you know, but generally in. Kids don't always get along because they don't have to. But in a, in a coaching program, like, it's all unified, all the same problem. So it actually gets easier to manage. At a certain point, it's harder to manage three or four clients because they're all like, single child.
- [28:20]
Nathan Chan
Yes.
- [28:21]
Richmond Din
But once you get to 10, 12, 15, 20, that becomes super easy. Especially 30, because now culturally, they're all kind of starting to look after someone post a question in the Facebook group. It's like you didn't have to answer it because someone just jumped in and answered it for you. Whereas you got three or four people. There's not many people to jump in and answer it. You know what I mean? And so for me, like, we've got, in our, in our inner circle, like almost 200 people now. But I rarely have to answer a question. And if I do want to answer a question, I don't even get there quick enough because there's so many people just wanting to jump in and help. So it's not as hard managing 100 people as you think. But you do like, you do want to have tears of leadership. You want to have people in the community who are, you know, great stewards of yours. And they're just like, they're just people that they go to points and like the school captains or prefects, that kind of stuff. So that's how you start to build it out.
- [29:10]
Nathan Chan
Yep. Okay. And then talk to me around, I guess, group coaching versus one on one.
- [29:18]
Richmond Din
Yeah. Well, you can't scale one on one coaching, right?
- [29:21]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. Unless you have other coaches.
- [29:23]
Richmond Din
Yeah, unless. Yes, that's correct. Yes, 100. Yes, you can. Unless you have other coaches. And that builds complications because then they don't coach like you and people just want you and all that kind of stuff. So there are two ways to scale one on one coaching is either have other coaches doing it for you or to go to group coaching. Now, the pros and cons of each, I mean, we all know one on one coaching gives you the deepest transformation. And so I thought, okay, what happens after tiny challenge? Like, it's not scalable. You're doing one on one coaching five days. And then you sell them a program which probably involves some one on one coaching. So how do you scale it? So what I did last year was I ran a tiny challenge one on one, but I got permission from the person sitting in the hot seat, said, hey, look, would it be okay if I had five or six people just come in the same zoom room and watch me coach you one on one? And they all had the same problem. And so by me solving that problem to that person being hot seated, it solved the problem for everyone else in the room. Except I wasn't coaching them. It wasn't group coaching. They were just observing me sitting in what I call a shadow seat to watch me coach them one on one. Now the cool thing about that is they get the transformation, they get the value. But when I do the offer presentation at the end, I'm not just offering it to one person, I'm offering it to whoever is sitting in the shadow seat. And so that's how you scale one on one coaching with the same benefits of one on one coaching?
- [30:48]
Nathan Chan
Yes. And then your program would be group.
- [30:53]
Richmond Din
Then would be a hybrid. Yes, could be a hybrid. Yeah.
- [30:57]
Nathan Chan
Got you, got you. So I guess another piece of the puzzle is the operations and all of that stuff that starts to come to life for you now. What does your team look like?
- [31:11]
Richmond Din
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:12]
Nathan Chan
You got a business partner, Tony?
- [31:13]
Richmond Din
That's right.
- [31:14]
Nathan Chan
Yep.
- [31:14]
Richmond Din
Yeah, we've got 17 on our team. Now?
- [31:16]
Nathan Chan
Yep. Okay.
- [31:16]
Richmond Din
Touch wood. Since we hired our first person seven years ago, no one's left.
- [31:22]
Nathan Chan
You haven't had one person leave?
- [31:23]
Richmond Din
Zero. I thought that was, you know, I thought that was normal.
- [31:25]
Nathan Chan
Wow.
- [31:26]
Richmond Din
I thought it was normal until I started, like, Russell and I told, like, a few people in inner circle and stuff, like, yeah, like, we haven't had anyone leave since I was 17. Full time. Like, real time. They're like, what? Like, zero team churn. Like, I had no reference. I didn't know. I honestly did not know. And I would say about six people in our team, they actually came and said, richmond, I want to work for you. So I didn't even. And people like, how did you hire that person? I don't know. They came to me, you know, they sent me a DM saying, I'm looking for work, you know, so we haven't had anyone leave. And I'm trying to reverse engineer that. You know, I. I don't know if I now what it takes to build a team.
- [32:04]
Nathan Chan
What roles? What, like, as you start to scale.
- [32:07]
Richmond Din
What.
- [32:07]
Nathan Chan
What kind of roles? Talk me through that. Right.
- [32:10]
Richmond Din
The first one is you need a pa like, you need a personal assistant that's doing a social. This is the basic admin Stuff that kind of wears 100 hats.
- [32:16]
Nathan Chan
Yep.
- [32:16]
Richmond Din
And. And then they. They may transition to ea. Like, that's. Like, that's the first step. And we thank goodness to Covid. We realized that a lot of jobs can be done virtually with the same competency. Like, I was. I was so blown away by everyone working remotely that we still achieved the same results. And it made me. And after Covid, it made me realize I'm hiring everything offshore now. So most of our team is from the Philippines now. We do have people from South America and stuff. And like, our marketing manager, she's a beast. And should I say. No, I won't say how much she gets back, but it's. It's like significantly less.
- [32:57]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:59]
Richmond Din
And it's all offshore.
- [33:00]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy. Remote teams and. And the power of it. There's pros and cons, though, right? Like, there's pros and cons around time zone, how fast you can move building that culture, all those bits and pieces that come as well.
- [33:18]
Richmond Din
That's right. Yeah. I believe you can build culture virtually. I used to not believe that, and that used to be my limiting belief, but I really do believe you can build culture virtually. I. I even also believe that you can run virtual events that are better than live events.
- [33:31]
Nathan Chan
Yeah.
- [33:31]
Richmond Din
Which is what we've been like. For me personally, I've stopped doing live events because our virtual is a better, a better experience.
- [33:38]
Nathan Chan
Really? So you don't do any in person events only?
- [33:40]
Richmond Din
We did our last one a couple of months ago. Yeah, we said live. Our virtuals, we have really nailed it. To create an immersive experience where they lose a sense of time and the community is nuts and it's just crazy. Everyone feels like they're there with you. Everyone gets a front row seat.
- [33:57]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. Okay. Wow, that's crazy. So what do I rewind just for a second? You're not much of a content guy. Why is that?
- [34:07]
Richmond Din
Yeah, well, I do. Like, I don't. Maybe I just don't know better, you know, maybe I think it's ignorance to be honest. Like. Yeah, if, if you just, I think if I just spent more time with you, I'd be a content guy. You know what I mean? So yeah, maybe I just didn't have someone in my top five that's like all content. Content. Yeah. So it's probably ignorance, I'd say because I choose not to do it.
- [34:29]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, but you've been able to build a sizable business, make a sizable impact without having to create a lot of content.
- [34:36]
Richmond Din
Yeah.
- [34:37]
Nathan Chan
However, you see most people that have a personal brand that you know, do coaching, consulting, digital products, those kinds of businesses that they have a large following.
- [34:48]
Richmond Din
Yeah. Like I only post three times a week on one platform and I remember yesterday you like, you was like I was posting 15 times a day.
- [34:56]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, yeah. Back in the day for founder. Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
- [34:59]
Richmond Din
I post 15 times a month. So yeah, maybe, maybe I'm completely ignorant to the whole item. I'm not sure.
- [35:08]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. So how have you grown from a, from a traffic? Is it partnerships? Is it paid ads?
- [35:15]
Richmond Din
Quality, quality relationships like that.
- [35:17]
Nathan Chan
Yeah.
- [35:17]
Richmond Din
For me, like I, I don't need 100 leads. I just need five leads that have built so much trust before they bought and, and then the conversion becomes easy. Like for me I'm all about numbers in quality and strength and building your lower 100 or having your top five friends like that kind of stuff. I think that's more powerful. Kind of like the movie 300, you know man, like just 300 strong will destroy a whole army.
- [35:43]
Nathan Chan
Yes.
- [35:44]
Richmond Din
You know, so that's, that's. I think the future is focused on quality, not quantity. Quantity is going to be very hard game to win. Now quality is a game that you can win and you can get started right now.
- [35:57]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. So like that's one thing I've definitely noticed since us meeting and just hearing about your business, how everything works and how you help others is you have a really, really, really strong passion and sense on client fulfillment and results and really making sure that that happens. But if you could put it down to some frameworks for people. What. What. How does that look like? What does that look like? Because I think it's one thing to say, okay, this is what I'm going to teach. It's one thing to say, this is what I'm going to teach or coach or. Or help people with. It's another thing to say, okay, I'm going to run it something like a tiny challenge model. But how. Talk to me around the delivery. Right. Because people get caught up on that delivery. And it doesn't. It doesn't also mean you have to do 101 things. Like you give 101 thing often when you come. Yeah. You keep you going to this game, you're like, I'll give them this and this and this. I'll give this person this, this, this and this, this. And it overwhelms people.
- [36:55]
Richmond Din
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:56]
Nathan Chan
So talk me through that.
- [36:57]
Richmond Din
This is a great question. I think this is going to help a lot of people in every industry when it comes to communication and teaching delivery for whatever industry you're in. So, like in maths, right? So you had the term lowest common denominator in maths. So if you got the number 20, like 20 can be split up between 1, 2, 4, 5, 10 and 20. Like those are the common round number denominators of 20. What's the lowest common denominator of 20? Well, obviously 1, but every one is in everything. So what's the next one? It's 2. So 2 is the lowest common denominator in the number 20, you look at the number 9. What's the lowest common denominitor? Number 9? 3, because you exclude 1. And so every. So you got a result that you want to deliver, right? The result is like the number 20, the result is like the number 50, or the results like number 158. What's the lowest common denominator in that result that you're generating for them? Teach them that. They learn that, then they learn the next lowest common denominator. And before you know it, when they understand the lowest common denominators all made up from this big thing, they can master that big thing easily. That's how tiny challenge came about. Because I asked her, what is the lowest common denominator? And is there one lower than this? And how do you know they're not getting results from the lowest common denominator that you think it is?
- [38:17]
Nathan Chan
Ah, okay.
- [38:18]
Richmond Din
There's a step lower than that. It's a lowest common denominator. So it's a principle of simplicity.
- [38:25]
Nathan Chan
Yes, yeah, yeah. So it's all about the quick wins.
- [38:31]
Richmond Din
Yeah, like, well, yeah, quick wins in a sense, like not so much like quick rich wins, but yes. It's like what's the least friction step that I can take that's going to move me forward?
- [38:40]
Nathan Chan
Yes.
- [38:41]
Richmond Din
Now.
- [38:41]
Nathan Chan
Yes.
- [38:42]
Richmond Din
Yeah, it's like the, the least friction step that I can take.
- [38:45]
Nathan Chan
Yes. So that's, I think, a problem that a lot of people do make in this space. They're really good at marketing. But then that person, you know, gets the program comes into the, you know, in some way shape or form group coaching, one on one what, whatever it is, or a course and then they, then you just got like a, a two hour long video or two. Like and, and just go do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, it's actually not helpful. No, no, no, no. So, so the way that you do your teaching is around micro steps.
- [39:18]
Richmond Din
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. 100%. And understanding that really the big thing is all based on mastering three or four of the little things they just put in Lego blocks together.
- [39:31]
Nathan Chan
Yes.
- [39:32]
Richmond Din
Let's see. Understanding that one unit Lego block and then that big result is just putting five of them together.
- [39:38]
Nathan Chan
Yes.
- [39:38]
Richmond Din
And we can do one you can defy.
- [39:40]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, I love that. Because that's exactly what we do. A founder. Like all of our programs, all of our courses, our lessons are no longer usually maximum, absolute maximum around 10 minutes. And it's like one specific thing that you're going to take and we break down the modules by outcomes.
- [39:58]
Richmond Din
Yeah.
- [39:59]
Nathan Chan
So if you look at, you know, starting your E Commerce brand, the first piece of the puzzle is coming up with your idea. Then the first lesson is how to find your idea. Then the second lesson is how to validate. And we just go through step by step and. Yeah. And there's always an action item. The way that we teach it is like the what, then the what if, then the why and then the how and then the action item.
- [40:20]
Richmond Din
Yeah. And to your point, like a lot of people think if they overcomplicate it, it makes them look smart. Like if they make it too simple, I look, I look like an idiot. Like, is that simple? Like we had a conversation last night and some of the things you were dropping was like, yes, that simple. It's like, is it that simple? Yes, it is that simple. Yeah.
- [40:40]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, I agree. Okay. All right. So we have to work towards wrapping up. We covered a lot of ground. Like, anybody watching this, listening to this, that want to start a business in the online education, coaching, consulting space, you got a lot that you can take away. Is there any questions that you wanted me to ask you that I haven't asked you?
- [40:59]
Richmond Din
Well, that's a. That's a. That's a great question. Okay. But maybe. Maybe some core beliefs that I think would be useful for anyone watching this is when you're starting out, like, in this space, like what we. Some core beliefs or fundamentalists that would help you succeed more in life or business is I say this like Mark Twain said that two most important days of your life, the day you're born and the day you find out why. And so how do you find your purpose? Understand the three. Who's the three. Who's number one. You need to get clarity on who are you here to serve? Like, are you here to serve? Like, what kind of clients? That's kind of your avatar. Maybe. Maybe your small family or tribe are here to serve. When you get clear on that, that's one third of the way to finding your purpose. Second third is now, who do you want to become? So who do you want to become in this world? And then that's two thirds of the way there. But then the third, who is the most important, which is the belief part, is who am I going to run with in this life? Who am I running with? And that's proximity. And you and I are both Tony Robbins fans, and he always talks about proximity. But you must believe that the most important decision you're going to make in your whole life is who you spend time with, because who you spend time with determines on who you become, determines on who you're called to serve and how many more people you can reach. Like, even me being on this podcast is. I'm know there's going to be so many people watching this that could not have heard about this if I wasn't on this podcast with you. And so that allows more reach to who you serve. And so who you spend time with is the most important thing. And if you believe that's the most important thing in life, you'll be way more successful than any anything that you ever do, because it dictates everything in your future. Your current state, your values, your beliefs, culture, your success, your health, your relationships. Everything in your life is dictated by the five people you spend most time with, period. And so that is my core belief. I call it the eighth wonder. This invisible force that governs everything that you cannot. You cannot determine because it's your environment. And I even say, like, you know, if you were to cut my hand and my blood poured out and you test my blood type, it'll be 8th wonder, wonder. Like, it's.
- [43:13]
Nathan Chan
That.
- [43:14]
Richmond Din
That's how much I believe it and that's. That's how my life really changed because I just up leveled my peer group. Simple. But it's. It's everything.
- [43:21]
Nathan Chan
Yeah, I agree. I think when I've had the most, you know, with a business and work and career or personal relationships wherein I've had the most amount of growth, it's been, you know, really forcing myself to learn from other people that I might not or. Or hang out with people like that. That growth, that extreme growth comes from that.
- [43:43]
Richmond Din
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's not. Not comfortable. Sometimes, you know, you're like, how much do I deserve to be here?
- [43:48]
Nathan Chan
Yeah. And, and being vulnerable to put yourself in a place where you don't know the answers or you, you know, it's not working. Yeah, like, yeah, that's, that's, that's not easy.
- [43:58]
Richmond Din
Not easy. Not easy. Just being the best student is how I've got through those, like, okay, I'm around these super successful people, but if I just come in there being the best student mindset, then. Then I'm good. I'm good, I'm good.
- [44:11]
Nathan Chan
Awesome. So you recently launched a book. Where's the best place people can find out more about Tiny Challenge?
- [44:17]
Richmond Din
Tiny Challenge. Yeah, I know. It's over there. Hey, Tiny. Tiny. Tinychallengebook.com tinychallengebook.com it shows you on how to run a successful Tiny Challenge. Whether you're in the real estate niche, the personal training niche, the expert niche is actually getting. Getting people buying this book from all different niches and that I didn't make for, but they're crushing in that nature. Tiny Challenge book dot com.
- [44:41]
Nathan Chan
Awesome. So, yeah, look, creator space is not going to slow down. And I know there's a lot of people out there creating content and they're looking to monetize, they're looking to do coaching courses, launch a course, launch a program, or consulting. I highly recommend checking out Richmond's way, so thank you so much, Richmond. Really appreciate your time. Man coming down.
- [45:02]
Richmond Din
Appreciate you, Nathan.
- [45:03]
Nathan Chan
All right, so if you love this episode, make sure to check out my interview with Alex Hormozi on how he scales companies from zero straight to $2 million a month in less than a year.
- [45:15]
C
We were like, how have you achieved you cheaper? Like, there's five years of my life that disappeared. In fact, I lost all the money, which I talk about in the book. I had all the gyms. I did the trick turnarounds, and then I had $0 five years later because of mistakes that I made. But the things that I was gaining was not the money. It was the skills. It was the character traits and the beliefs.