← The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan
The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan
581: How to Build a $100M Brand Without Raising a Dollar | Peach & Lily
01:11:50
Alicia Yoon is the founder of Peach & Lily—the pioneering brand that brought Korean skincare to the U.S. before “K-Beauty” was a buzzword.
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- [00:02]
A
Hey, founder fam. I want to talk to you about something super exciting. We're officially partnered with Omnisend, the email marketing and SMS platform built specifically for e commerce founders. We've been recommending Omnisend to founder students for a while now because it just works. Whether you're launching your first store or you're scaling to seven figures, it really helps you automate your marketing and get real results. Did you know on average, OMNISEND customers make $68 for every $1 they spend, which is an insanely good return. And because you're part of the founder community, you get 50% off your first three months with the code. Founder50. Just head to omnisend.com founder without the e to get started. All right, now let's jump back into the show. Hey, guys. Welcome back to the founder podcast. Today's guest is Alicia Yoon, founder and CEO of Peach and Lily. This is the cult favorite K beauty brand behind viral trends like glass skin and snail mucin. And Elisa's journey started from a deeply personal place. Growing up with severe eczema, she made it her mission to understand skin at a scientific level. And what started as her own skin detective work eventually turned into $100 million brand. So in this episode we unpack how she built Peach and Lily from scratch without any VC funding, how she broke into major retailers like Ulta, Walmart, cvs, and how she scaled the company by being insanely disciplined, analytical, customer obsessed how to create incredible products. So if you want to a beauty brand, an e commerce brand, or thinking about turning a personal struggle into a business, this conversation is not to be missed.
- [01:41]
B
Hear the stories, learn the proven methods, and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship. Welcome to the founder podcast with Nathan Chan.
- [01:55]
A
Well, the first question I wanted to ask you is you've mentioned in the past that you. You started this incredible company, Peach and Lily, out of necessity for managing your own eczema. And as someone that had severe eczema as a kid growing up, I used to have welts on my face up until the age of five or six, till I grew out of it. Like, people used to come up to my mum when I was in a pram and be like, oh my God, he's so cute. And then they'd get closer and they'd be like, what's going on with his face? I'd love to hear, like, how did you start this brand and, you know, build this global business?
- [02:33]
B
Well, first of all, I feel you so much. I feel like growing up with severe eczema I have, like, a special place in my heart for anyone who has, like, any skin struggles, because a lot of people think that, you know, it's just like, your skin. And I would say that it wasn't so much like, growing up with eczema that it hurt my confidence, but it really put kind of this. Like, there was always this cloud hanging over me because I felt so out of control with my own health. Like, I wouldn't know what would trigger it, and I wouldn't know if I'm going to wake up that day with, like, very visible bleeding rashes. And, you know, like, when you're a teenager, you know, it just. It bothered me so much. And so knowing how that can really impact how you're feeling about just being empowered, even understanding what's going on with your body and just all the different ways that it can affect you emotionally and, like, mentally. So I like, ha. I just, like, I think that's like, one of the biggest things that is such a driving factor in Peach and Lily day to day, because whenever I meet consumers face to face and they talk to me about their skin issues, it's like, I just have that spoiler special place in my heart where I'm like, I get it. I know that frustration, et cetera. And that really drives kind of how we want to educate about skin. Because, you know, there actually is a science behind your skin histology, and you don't have to feel so lost. But, you know, I think because I grew up with severe eczema, you know, it kind of was this journey in the beginning. It was just me really young, and my mom was my hero. She was taking me everywhere, trying to figure out every solution for me. And, you know, it makes me actually emotional because you can see, like, I could see how much my mom, like, loves me and cares about me, and she just really so desperately wanted me to not have to deal with, like, the itchiness, the pain. And she could see, like, it was affecting me emotionally. So it went from that to, at one point, I was like, I don't want to deal with this anymore, where I'm just lost and confused. Skincare was guesswork, and it was really frustrating. And I was like, I need to figure this out. So I enrolled in aesthetic school back then, you know, not really. Like, there wasn't Internet. It was just, you know, just very analog. Then I went to. So that year I went to college, and I was just going to the stacks, like, in my free time, trying to read studies about skincare, things like that. You Know, talking to different dermatologists. But it was a lot of, yes, there. That education was there, but it was actually a lot of years of hands on trial and error, like, really mapping different factors of my lifestyle, like looking at different ingredient lists of products that I was trying to. But actually, like, digging into ingredient lists on my own to do pattern analysis. So, for example, I would see this one product get, like, a lot of feedback that it's very soothing for skin, but the product itself may not advertise as, like, a soothing product. And I would be like, that's really interesting. It has these ingredients in it. And then I would just keep note of all of those things and how it worked for me. And over time I was able to see, well, it's really interesting. Like, these two ingredients together seem to really have a soothing effect. So I was just like scrupulously taking these meticulous notes and binders, trying to really be my own skin detective. And so it took, you know, maybe a handful of years of, like, I mean, you should have seen the journals I kept on, like, how was I sleeping, what was I eating, what was my stress level? Like, what topicals am I using to, like, figure this out once and for all? And after, you know, a handful of years, it was like I entered the matrix. Like, I could actually predictably know, okay, I'm probably going to get a flare up next week. Because I didn't sleep well. I. I didn't. I didn't keep up with this routine. I was out in the sun, my skin got kind of dry. Like, I just knew so much about how my body was working. And that really was this, like, big transformative moment for me where, you know, it wasn't overnight, like, I started putting the pieces together over those years, but it was really like a handful of years later where I felt like I had it on lockdown. I was like, wow, I'm like nine and a half out of ten times, right? All the time about how my skin's gonna react. And the feeling I had from that was this joy, for lack of a better word, of feeling so empowered. Like, when you feel like your health is not in your hand and it's just like a guessing game every day, and then you crack the code on that. It made me feel so excited inside. And so what ended up happening is literally just out of pure passion. And I also grew up in Korea from middle school and high school, so my parents were still there. So I would go back to Korea, bring back, like, all these amazing products, and literally I just had this, like, apothecary situation in my home. And. And whenever people would come over, I would, like, talk to them about their skin for anyone who would listen. Plus anyone who was dealing with their own skin issues. Because in doing that level of, like, skin detective work, I just came across so much research where I was like, acne. Okay, let's talk about that. Like, I was able to talk about skin at a very wide range, not just about my eczema. And I would just do facials for fun. Like, that was my jam, that was my hobby. And so after college, you know, I first went into finance, and then I was a management consultant. Then I went into business school. Like, nothing to do with skincare, but this hobby was like, this constant threat in my life. Like, peop. Like, I was surprised when I started Peach and Lily where so many people were like, it makes total sense. Like, do you remember giving me a facial? All you do is talk about skincare. Like, your room always has so much skincare. You know, like, it just. Yeah. So that was kind of this thread of my life. And when I started Peach and Lily, it was funny. I went to business school in 2008, and so that was when the financial crisis had happened. And, you know, the school was very focused on, like, all the finance and consulting jobs were, like, slim pickings. And the school was very focused on entrepreneurship. My grandfather is this, like, incredible entrepreneur. He. He was just such a big inspiration in my life. And so in the back of my mind, I always thought it would be great to start a company. So when I was in business school, it was like, very funny looking back the way I approached it, because I kept thinking, there's a very structured way to start a business. Like, do the research. Where are there gaps? Where are there opportunities? Like, is this a scalable concept? And I kept looking into things that were, like, really not things I was actually passionate about, but just things that I saw as, like, there's a market opportunity. And it was just like the structured, regimented analysis. So after business school, I actually tried my hand at a startup in, like, fast fashion from Korea. And it just, like, wasn't scaling. The sizing was all wrong. Like, the content labeling wasn't up to muster.
- [10:23]
A
Can we touch on that? So, so, so how much did it cost to start this little brand? Like, and when exactly was that? Was that 2010 or, like.
- [10:33]
B
Yeah, that was in 2009. So the second year of business school, they had this program where you can kind of do a startup, and it's part of, like, this course, and there was just like, a lot of support from the school on getting advice and lots of fun panels you could attend. So. And I. You know, growing up in Korea, there's so much interesting, fast fashion. And Gossip Girl was trending then, and the stylist from Gossip Girl would shop clothes brought from Korea to these, like, boutiques in New York, and I would, like, look at their outfits, and I'm like, I know where they're getting that, and I can do it, like, curate even more and do a showroom. So when I went back during one of the breaks, I just went around all these, like, I contacted fashion designers who had run, like, Project Runway Korea, contacted street designers, like, anywhere where I was like, I love those clothes. I just would contact them and then pitch them. I'm going to have a showroom in the States. Like, I honestly, I didn't have much of a plan. I just thought, let's first test and see, like, if people like it. So I probably spent, like, third, like, a lot of money, actually, because it was, like, a big part of my savings. I probably spent, like, a total of. I don't, like, maybe even $30,000, which was a lot for a grad school student with, like, grad school loans, to buy the inventory, to set up, like, a little website to do a photo shoot. Like, I was, like, pretty serious about it, you know, and it was, like, very manual. Like, I was hand printing and cutting all the tags, like, putting it on. Like, going from Boston to New York to find a showroom, like, getting the invites out. Like, personally emailing every single person in my contact base to be like, do you want to come to this? Like, designing things, finding a photographer, a model? Like, it was such a production. But it was fun. And I made some mistakes. Like, for example, it was like a credit card processing company. Let's, like, find the cheapest one. Bad idea. Like, they were so sketchy and wouldn't, like, give me my money for, like, months. And except for Amex, that was, like, the one company, they couldn't, like, withhold that money. I don't. I don't know how it works, but it was like, I was, like, stalking the owners on Facebook. I was like, give me my money back. Like, it was this whole thing. Um, so that was, like, a big lesson for me. I was like, sometimes you get what you pay for, and if they're, like, so much cheaper than everyone else in the market, maybe there's a reason. So, yeah, it was, you know, I was able to, I would say probably break even on that. So, you know, I felt good about that. But the issue was when I seriously started looking at scaling this. Well, first, I don't even think I had enough data to know if this works. And what is my business model? Is it wholesale? Is it D2C? Like, I was still figuring that out. I first just did these showrooms, like, a few of them, just to see do people like these clothes? And also, like, is there enough interesting things coming out of Korea, you know, to really, you know, be differentiated? And I was very interested in that market at the time because there was this whole, like, system around fast fashion in Korea that was, like, very compelling at the time. But, yes, I. What I realized is, okay, the clothes are really, you know, on point, and people are really loving it. They're taking things from the Runway and, like, really quickly iterating, and there's just, like, really fresh things every week. But then I started really looking into, okay, importing this at scale. You have, like, the content label determines, like, the tariffs you pay and things like that. And some of these, like, street designers, they're just getting fabric, and they're not really, like, exactly what is this fabric type? And so they wouldn't sometimes even have a content label on it. They would just say, like, dry clean this. And when I would explain, like, no, I need, like, the right label, they would just be like, okay, I'll just put a label on it. Like, no, it has to be, like, accurate. So that was, like, an interesting hurdle. And then I also realized sizing just wasn't as diverse as I needed it to be. So when I would talk to the designers, they were like, it's actually a different design. You can't just take a cut and just make it larger. Like, for diverse sizing, you actually need to redesign certain parts of it. And, you know, it was just. I was starting to realize, like, this isn't really going to scale. So at the end of business school, you know, I was like, I don't think I'm going to continue with this. And it wasn't actually looking back, it wasn't this massively hard decision. And I think it's because while I enjoy fashion, I don't think I. It's not something I'm so passionate about, where it was so crushing that I couldn't do this. I was like, okay, that didn't work out. And so then after business school, I met with a friend of mine where we were pretty disciplined. Every Wednesday, we would meet after work, and we would give each other, like, we would have weekly projects where we're like exploring ideas and researching through the week, et cetera. So I was doing that on top of my full time job and we explored a lot of different ideas. But then this funny thing happened where ultimately it was just over time I realized I was like, still so passionate about skincare and still spending a lot of time, like for fun, shopping for skin care, talking to my friends about it, giving facials for fun, like all of this. Like, I would literally, as a consultant have people like on my consulting project, they would know, oh, she does facials. They would like come to my hotel room and we'd like be doing facials. Like, this is the level of passion. And I was like, so happy to do it. And so at one point I was like, wait, why am I researching all these other ideas? I should just do a startup that's focused on skincare. I love skincare. There's so much incredible innovation in Korea that I see firsthand as like a bicultural, bilingual person with my parents still in Korea. There's so many product categories and ingredients that are available in Korea that you could not find in the US at the time. Like Korean beauty and K beauty was not a thing then. And I was like, this is madness. It's a globalized world and people just don't have access to these specific things in skincare. So I felt like your skincare toolbox was so limited in the US and as someone who like struggled so much with my skin, I just was like, this is just there's such an opportunity and I felt like it was like a mission to make all these incredible innovations and solutions for people with problem skin more available and in the US So it was this funny thing that happened where like, literally it was like this idea that just settled into my head and then I just couldn't stop thinking about it. I was like, I just need to bring these innovations to the U.S. i just need to make this more accessible. And for like two weeks, I was so excited and passionate about it, which never happened with like the fashion startup that I just was like, with no plan, with less savings than I had wanted, I just went to HR and I was like, I just really want to start this company. I'll finish up this project. But I think this is just something I need to explore. And you know, I was at BCG at the time and they made it like real. They were so. They're such a great company and they were like, this sounds great, you know, we hope it works out. But also, if not Open door policy back, you know, like, best of luck. And they were like, yeah, if you just finish your project, that would be great. So that was it. Like, I wrapped up my project a month later and then I just like dove right in. But like, it didn't go as I planned because I didn't have like a business plan, a PowerPoint. Like all that prep work I was doing for all these other ideas, like I had it done that for this. It was just purely this passion I couldn't get out of my head. And I was like, I'll figure, I'll figure it out. So that's how it all happened.
- [19:40]
A
Yeah, there you go. Okay, so you've mentioned that you've had $7 in your bank account. At one point, you bootstrapped this business. You almost gave up. Talk me through. What was your first product? What was the line? Did you start with one hero product for peach and lily? How did you bring it to life? Talk me through manufacturers and we have a lot we gotta get through.
- [20:08]
B
Yeah. So the first iteration of the business was not our own product lines. We were curating third party Korean beauty brands and we were a destination, an E commerce destination for Korean beauty brands. And then we were also distributing them to other retailers. I knew introducing a whole new category to whole new market. You can't compromise on your curation. So the best brands in Korea that I really wanted to work with, they all said no. They're like, you have no customer, you have no website. You just have a PowerPoint presentation. We are not working with you. I thought it would take a month to secure these Korean beauty brands to bring onto my platform. So I expected to be in Korea for a month. I was in Korea for six months and I actually gave myself a deadline. I said, if in six months I can't secure a single brand that I actually want to bring to the U.S. i will go back to BCG. And on month six, the brand one, one of the brands be the skin was like, you are the most persistent person. I mean, I met with them so many times and you really know your ingredient list. We will take a chance with you. And the funny thing that happened is because they have such a great reput a lot of the other brands that I had talked to, when I said I secured them, they were like, okay, maybe you're worth working with. So it took a long time. And then when I got back to the states and now I had brands who were willing to be on my platform. You have to create a website, you have to create PDP pages, you have to take photos. Like you have to translate everything, educate people on new things. Like it was just like super late nights working on all this. I wasn't paying myself. I was working out of our apartment. I, I didn't have a single sale yet. I was, you know, unemployed for six months already at the time, you know, and I had some savings so I was like living extremely, you know, frugally. But then, you know, the business starts, you start to put up your Shopify, you start to do your first sales. But everything, everything is so much more expensive. Like the lesson I learned about my credit card processing company, I guess that didn't really sink in because I found this like very affordable developer to kind of customize a Shopify site. And he was like, ended up being very expensive because there were so many iterations and you know, so just, I felt like my cash was just going no matter how like much I was trying to manage it. So yeah, at one point, you know, probably about a year into actually launching the Shopify site and you know, everything costs money, right? Like everything I had to find a designer to do. I mean, I learned how to do a lot of this too, but also there just isn't enough hours in the day. I mean, yeah, at one point I had $7 to my name plus debt that I just like put on pause and I was like, whoa. Like, I mean, I almost got evicted out of my home. Um, I had to beg my landlord. You know, I've been a good tenant for years. Like, I'm just trying to get this thing off the ground. I'm good for it, you know, like, it was rough. And I literally remember that moment I looked in, I canceled all my credit cards because I was also like, I can't rack up debt. I need to like live within my means. And I remember thinking I could buy like a two dollar pizza or, and then, or like ride the subway or the, like there were some trade offs. And I remember making the decision, I will walk 40 blocks and I am going to drop off all of the New York packages. Like I was hand delivering packages and I will have my $2 pizza and that's, you know, I had like blisters on my feet. It was rough. It was rough.
- [23:58]
A
Yeah, there you go. And so, yeah, so you started with a curated store effectively, right? Yeah, like a general store. How can you talk us through the cost of starting? Right? Like, like how much did it cost to set up your general store? How many products did you have?
- [24:16]
B
So I would say the first six months I probably spent about $40,000. Like but that was the money that went into the business. But then of course there's just like living costs too. So there was just like rent and just food and all of that. And it was a pretty big shift where you know, I was not going to, I couldn't go to destination weddings, I couldn't eat out with my friends. Like all of those things were just completely on pause. I was living super bare bones and I was actually very okay with it again because I felt just so passionate about it. But you know, I think what really was encouraging is I realized that cash flow takes a minute to catch up. But what I really didn't want to do is take my eyes off signals that really help me read if there is a real business here or not. So for example, if there isn't really demand, that's not a good sign because a lot of, so I didn't take funding at that time. Um, even though in the beginning I kind of went through the motions of like meeting with VCs, et cetera because I had the benefit of a lot of friends who are entrepreneurs coming out of hbs. At the time, you know, there was a little bit of this playbook of you have a great deck, you go to a vc, you can get pre seed rounding. But I realized, wait a minute, I'm not building like a tech platform. I'm building a pretty meat and potatoes type business and my earliest consumers should be the easiest to attract. And if I can't build a sustainable, profitable business, that's not a real business, I'm basically buying or in this case now making things and selling it. And that needs to self sustain and you know, if you need to spend more than you're earning to build that like it just didn't make sense for me. And I remember so many times in the first few years where I was like, was that just like the biggest mistake to not take funding or not even pursue it because it was hard times. But I think my intuition, I kept thinking it doesn't make any sense for my business. You become path dependent. And so I just, it made me. A few things happen from that. Number one, it forces you to really look at how your business is run. Like really focus on cash flow and not like vanity metrics. And it also forces you to get really real with yourself so fast to say the minute it seems like the demand signals aren't there because your earliest consumers are going to be your most ardent consumers. If you're like targeting the right them the right way. So it can actually seem like green flags all around. But then when you're trying to grow each step of the way, if it just gets like so hard and at a certain point you're like, my addressable market seems really small. Nobody else is like that interested. Like, I kept just thinking that, I kept thinking like, if I just like get to a place where it just becomes so expensive to acquire them because you're just like, the demand signals aren't there. I just need to acknowledge that and say, this is going to be a small business and that's okay, but I have to look at it for what it is. So it kind of kept me very, very real, like, just truly focused on being honest with myself on like what those signals are. The second thing it really forced me to do is to get really analytical really quickly. Like I had this mantra where I was like, you just have to get smarter every month and understanding what marketing tactics actually work or not. It's hard because you can conflate a lot of variables and it's hard to measure like top of funnel. Like, it's, it's hard. But it really forced me, and the DNA still is in our company today to get super, like I had this Excel sheet where I was literally just plotting out like, this is a growth lever. These are all the variables that kind of were in play that month, like, and really trying to isolate and a B test like the heck out of everything. And it actually kind of is a similar approach that I took to like understanding my own skin. It was like logging everything, trying to look and isolate everything and see what's working. And when you see something clearly working, like, then double down on that. And of course at a certain point you tap out and that's not a scalable lever anymore. So you then find the next efficient one. So it forced me to have like an extremely data driven company and not just be like, yeah, like, I think that generally worked because we were so, so tight on cash. And then it also just forces you to be incredibly scrappy, which I think was such a blessing because you just get to know every part of your business like inside out because you're not outsourcing much at all because you're kind of just doing it all because you can't afford to have a ton of people around. So yeah, it was rough. But I think the decision to not pursue funding really established a solid foundation for how the business like is run and what we strive for, like organization wide. And it's like still the case Today.
- [30:11]
A
So talk me through. You said you shared that you got quite analytical and really forced you because you were bootstrapping, you were scrappy. What. At what point did you realize, like, what was this? What was the switching moment where you're like, okay, this is working. Like, what was your first breakthrough?
- [30:32]
B
I think that from the beginning, actually, I do think that I was seeing enough revenue growth to think that there's still something there. I think what gave me a lot of doubt was more, is this going to be enough revenue for, like, the cash flow to catch up? And also, I think it's so grueling that it was also just like, for me, asking myself, oh, my gosh, is this worth it? My life is so hard. Like, it was just also just asking myself, like, these deeper questions, like, you have to get through this phase for it to get better. But, like, oh, my gosh, this is much harder than I ever anticipated. Like, the level of existential stress, you know, just like, really unrelenting. And then you're also physically so tired because I couldn't figure out balance. Like, I mean, it was working. Burning, like, the midnight oil every night, including weekends. Like, so, you know. But interestingly, what kept me going was in the very beginning, I had set up a landing page where it was like, put in your email and maybe you'll, like, win a giveaway. We would. We would pick, like, winners. Like, I was going to pick a winner. And I was like, if I have enough email signups, that's a good sign. And I was like, okay, for example, I'm going to email, like, 500 people. Like, literally everybody I know, friends of friends. Like, let me just email 500 people. Of the 500 people, if I have, like, I don't remember exactly, but I think I had a number. Like, if of the 500 people I email, if I have, like 50 people sign up, that's a good sign. You know, I just had these, like, little numbers for myself I kind of made up, but those were, like, the metrics I set up for myself, and it would, like, exceed that metric. Then the first day of sales, I was like, if I have 10 sales, that's good. And we had, like, 40, like, pos. And I was like, okay. And then, you know, it was setting up, like, monthly goals. Okay, if we grow, like, 10% this month, we're gonna keep going. So there was enough demand there that like. And then also I was looking at now repeat purchases. Okay, now that it's been three months, I need to see a portion of my customers Come back, because otherwise I have a leaky bucket issue. And this is like not a sustainable business because skincare is a replenishable. Like, they have to like it, they have to come back. So it was just setting up these early metrics. It was a combination of having those clear numbers in my head of what I wanted to see to say this is working. And then also more psychologically, it was like reading all the customer service testimonials that would come through where there's like this qualitative richness to it, where people are like, this is amazing. So it was like the combination of that, that I knew this is working, but then it was like figuring out all the other pieces of it. How do I keep scaling it? Like, you know, that was a little bit trickier. And then also just mentally figuring out, like, do I have the stamina? Like, this is very difficult. So yeah, yeah.
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A
So I'm curious as well. You not only built a brand, you introduced categories like glass skin and snail mucin to the western market. How did you, like, how did you know those products would work and that, like, these are massive now? Like, how did you educate the market while growing your business?
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B
So I didn't know. In fact, when snail mucin first launched as a third party brand on our site, like, this is like the funniest little thing. But I was like, snail mucin. I personally, when I first heard about it, I personally got a little squeamish and I was like, I don't, I don't think I want to try this. But then I tried it and I had this like little breakout and in two days it cleared it up and I was like, wait, this is like amazing. And I was like, okay, like, let me try it. And I was like, this is, this is amazing. And then I started looking into the science of it and I was like, this is, this is awesome. So then when I curated it for the site, I was very nervous that it would have this cast this like weird shadow on all of our other curation of like just their site is so weird and squeamish. And so I launched it in the most low key way. Usually when we have a new curation, the email goes out, whatever, all the 360 that we could afford to do. It was a silent launch. Like I just like put up the PDP and I was like, I don't know, should we like talk about this? Somehow people found it and it became like this really like top two skew, like within five days of like zero awareness around it. And I was like, oh, okay. So then we started marketing it, and then it just became, like, really popular. So, yeah, I didn't know. And I think that's also the interesting thing is when you are. When we started off as a security site with so many different SKUs, there were also just, like, a lot of insights around innovation that we were able to gather. So that was also, like, really valuable. And then Glass Skin. So we had been in R and D with our own product line for years before launching it in 2018. So started the company in 2012, went into R and D a couple years later. And the passion there was really. I had started the company when I was 30, and that was like the same time frame where I started looking for very potent products so that I could prevent accelerated signs of aging. And a lot of those ingredients are very irritating on sensitive skin. And I couldn't find anything in the market that could powerfully transform my skin while not irritating my skin. So a couple years later, after getting to really know the scene in Korea, including manufacturers and labs and top chemists, because in the curation process, it's not just blindly taking the word of a brand, being like, we're great. I was vetting everything. I was talking to chemists and suppliers and ingredient researchers. And so in getting to know them, you know, I really wanted to start a brand that would meet the needs for people who want the best of both worlds, potency and gentleness. So that took years of innovation because a lot of it, like, some of the things are patent pending. Like, some things just are not able. Like, so many people say you can't have a retinoid product that sensitive skin can use. And we were able to actually create that after, like, years of development. It's patent pending. It's the only retinaldehyde product that also has a National Eczema association seal on it. So in the background, you know, all this R and D was happening. And one of the first product we launched under our, you know, Peach and the Elite, as our Peach and the Elite brand was the Glass Skin Refining Serum. And I didn't know that name would resonate. I was nervous. I. For me, it was a very, like, I love that name because as someone who struggled so much with skin, people often think skin, you know, healthy skin means it looks really perfect on the outside, whatever that means. And actually it's not the case. So, for example, you could have breakouts, you could have dark spots, and you can even have eczema like myself. But if you're really Focused on your skin health from within, keeping it really well nourished and hydrated and calm with antioxidants. Even if you have breakouts, there's this healthiness from within that radiates from your skin. And to me, that looks like glass skin. There's this like luminosity and smoothness and clarity. On the other hand, you can have none of those. You know, you don't get breakouts with the etc. But if you're just like not hydrated, sir, there's this like dullness to your skin, you know, And I, as an esthetician, I'm like, this person has healthier skin even if, yeah, they have breakouts. So glass skin was the embodiment of really capturing what it means to have healthy skin from the inside out. And the serum formula came first before the name. And I wanted to create this universal serum serum that made skincare easy. Because the philosophy that I have on skin is so many people who I talk to, they're like, I have dark spots. What do I do for it? I have breakouts. What do I do for it? And it's so tempting to just jump to like the treatment, but it's kind of like nutrition. You can't just like have supplements. You need like your baseline routine to be right. But skincare is confusing. Nutrition can be confusing. So wanted to create this serum that universally gets your skin to like baseline health and so it looks and feels healthy and then you add in your treatment. So I was like, really thinking, like, what should we call it, et cetera? And the glass skin refining serum. I was very nervous because I was like, I think people might think it turns, your skin turns like to glass, literally, and it's fragile. And I was like, I don't know if this is going to resonate. And so I didn't know. But when we launched that serum, it was the first serum we launched as a pre sale. Like it wasn't with any other products. And we launched it in this like very fun way where, you know, again, we didn't have like a big marketing budget and it was just like texture images, the name and just a description. And it was on presale. Like, you know, you could order it and it would be shipped out to like literally a month and a half later. And we sold out in the presale and I was like, oh, oh my gosh. So now I'm making emergency calls to my lab and I'm like, can you, can I cut the line? Like, this is so important. I need more And I had such a good relationship with them because it was years of working together at that point. And then. Yeah, and then when we officially launched past the pre sale, it just kept selling out. And then the term just took off. Everywhere it went, actually it took on its own, own life form that at a certain point people were like just asking me like, oh, like where does glass skin come from? And it just. And you know, so many people were asking about like, what is glass skin? How do you get glass skin? So I actually ended up writing this ebook about what is glass skin? How do you get it? Just to like really educate on what that term means, what we mean by it, how do you achieve that? And it was just complimentary. Like you sign up for our email and we would just like send it over. So yeah, it was like the wildest thing to see. And yeah, no, I did not. It was not some like mastermind architected thing. I was nervous just like this Neil Musin. I was like, it may really not resonate.
- [42:09]
A
Yeah. And that's the thing, right? Like I look back and think of, you know, we, we do a lot in the education space as well with founder and we help people start and grow e commerce brands. And we ran like our own little internal build a business competition. I don't know if you know, remember Shopify used to have that. We ran one for founder and we had two students. They grew their brand from like zero to $500,000 in like three or four months. So they did like 500 grand in like three or four months. And the way that they did it was before they went into the competition. They had like a general store, similar, similar concept to how you started. Right. And then they saw cert. They tested many different products. So they chose a niche or a category actually, funnily enough, was beauty. And then they had this general store. And they could see from the data that magnetic eyelashes at the time were really hot. And so by the time they came into the competition, they were already running like they knew, bang, we're going to do magnetic eyelashes from scratch. We're going to win this competition. We flew them out. And I think when it comes to product creation, I think sometimes people get. So they want to make the product perfect. They want to, you know, they want it, they want to get this thing perfect. Absolutely, absolutely perfect. But you've got two sides of the table, right? You did your own internal R D product which took you years to create. But then at the same time you've launched other products where you've seen for your, for your marketplace effectively, what is working, what is not, and then you can go out and start to double down. So for people that are looking to create their own, you know, category king product or queen product like you did, what advice would you give?
- [44:02]
B
Yeah, I would say that, you know, obviously the benefit of having insights around innovation from your own data might not always be available. But doing as much market research as possible, but like in a very nitty gritty way. So if there are bestsellers on Amazon, literally reading through every last review on why it's a bestseller, because sometimes, however it's described on the product images, the reviews are like liking it for like totally different reasons. So just having as much market data as possible. But I think what's also really important is having like a very authentic point of view on why this particular product you want to develop is differentiated. Why is it something that is not like a me too product on what's already in the market, but what about it is truly a value proposition? So even the products that we curated, we would never curate it unless we did a focus group test. And the focus group test was a very balanced scorecard that people had to fill out. And it was everything from, does it deliver the benefits that it says it will? Is it actually irritating to use it? Is it confusing? Is it sincerely delightful? We had this like scorecard and you actually need to hit a hurdle across all of it in order to really be curated onto our site. And then even when we're creating our own products, we do this like extensive research. And now we don't have those third party brands anymore. So we're not relying on those innovation insights at this point, but really, really thinking about what is the solution that we're trying to solve. And I think it's so tempting to be like, well, that's a bestseller. That brand is doing that, that's trending. And you just like try to hop on all those things. But I think for us it really works when we think about what is the solution that people really, really, really need. And getting so deep on the specificity of like what the actual problem is. So for example, it's not enough to say, okay, people have oily skin, they want a solution for that. It's more like people have oily skin and they have very sensitive skin. They may not always be breaking out, but they might be experiencing fungal acne, for example, you know, like getting very specific about the unmet. So like, so there's, there are just unmet problems. And then really thinking about what's the right solution for that. And I think it's important to still keep an eye out on the market so you understand how to then position it and maybe even you know just how to market it. But the core of the innovation and the core of the formula doesn't. For us, what's really worked is, it does. It's not born out of trends and what's working and what's popular. It's born out of a really differentiated point of view on a solution that's not already out there, but the market analysis is layered on top on how to then talk about it later.
- [47:34]
A
Yeah, I, I think you nailed it. And this is a, this is a common thread I see among so many successful E commerce founders that we speak to. They get, they get the insights right? And they spend just ridiculous amounts of time like, and it's boring, it's not fun, but it's like thousands of surveys, thousands of conversations just to get the product absolutely dialed. So I think you nailed it. Okay, so I want to switch gears. I want to talk about retail. So you guys have really kind of expanded quite successfully to major retailers like Ulta, Walmart, cvs, without diluting your brand. What have you done differently that perhaps other brands struggle with mass expansion?
- [48:25]
B
So we have this mantra in the business where we say, go an inch wide and a mile deep. So how that translates is when you're working with a brick and mortar retailer, it can be very tempting to just say more shelf space is the golden goal. Just try to secure as much of space as you can, and that's how you grow. The problem with that is that one, you have to develop all these products to fill that space, and you may not think that all those products are even needed or it rushes your innovation cycle, et cetera. The other issue with that is there's only so much marketing you can do around a number of products at once. And so what's really happening is you have like a subset of the products on shelf that could be productive and a subset that's not productive. So then what ends up happening is, you know, this is not meeting productivity goals. Now we need to discontinue that and make another product. And you just expend so much energy rationalizing your SKUs. So for us, when we expand, when we work with our retail partners, we get consistent feedback that we're like literally the only brand that does this, but we don't want more space. So even when the retailer is like, we'd love for you to take out more space because you're so productive, we will negotiate and say we'd love to just keep our current space and we can still hit growth goals by enhancing productivity. Of the SKUs that we already have, we'd rather not take out more space. So we really only expand space when we're like bursting at the seams, when it's literally like, okay, all your SKUs are like way above the department productivity goals and it's time to expand, you know, and in the background. And then we really try to minimize that exposure, expansion. So we're like, could we, you know, if we have to double the space, instead of filling it all with new products, could we have like a kit, could we have an education card? And could we just launch like these three SKUs instead of launching like nine new SKUs? So that's been really key for us. So, you know, even at Ulta Beauty, Peach and Lily, you know, it launched in 2018 and we're now the second largest prestige skincare brand at Ulta Beauty. And when you look at like the top 10 skincare brands in the store, they have a lot of space. Up until a year ago, we didn't even have. And we were already like a top 10 SKU at that brand. At that point, we didn't even have a full gondola where, like your logo goes across it. We had half a gondola where like the logo is artificially like cut off and they fake it out. And two brands share half a gondola. And like we were literally the only top 10 brand with half a gondola. Usually that's like 18 inches of space times like 4 or 5 shelves. Usually brands that are top 10 might have like 6ft of space or minimum like 3ft of space. So it was just a very different approach we took. And, but we really then focused on, on productivity. So really going deep with each product, our loyalty rate is, you know, much higher than kind of the industry average. So, you know, and it, and it comes down to. It all boils down to product is king. Like, the formulas just need to be superlative. Like, you genuinely need to believe that it's superlative. It starts with what is the unmet need that you're trying to solve. Then there is just that work with R and D that is hard to predict. Like, some things can take six years, some things can take two years. So we have a very unique innovation cycle as well, where we treat it a little bit like biotech than beauty, because you can't just like not launch for something for six years. So you have to work on multiple things at the same time, but when you do it that way, you can really launch things when you know that is a superlative product. It was also interesting because it wasn't intentional, but I realized that I hadn't hired anyone from a beauty company until year seven of the business, I think it was. And it wasn't even. It was not intentional, but it was just. So what ended up happening is the way we did everything was also a little bit different. Like, there wasn't this beauty playbook that we had. And, like, our retail partners kind of joke around with us about it, because I didn't. I don't know how to pitch a retailer. Like, so I just went in there with, like, just. I guess I. I had some calls and I asked around, but I just went in there just doing things that made the most sense to us. So, for example, the first pitch meeting at Ulta beauty, we had 30 finished products, like, ready to go. We had worked on them for years, and they were like, yet no one launches with 30 SKUs. And it wasn't so much that or no one presents 30 SKUs. It wasn't that we wanted to launch with all 30, but I thought the retailer wanted, like, options. So we would be like, what of the 30 do you think would be, like, the most resonant in your store? And they're like, Nobody comes with 30 SKUs prepared. And also they would ask us, like, what are your growth goals? We would have the biggest growth goals. And they would be like, why don't we, like, first try this? And we. We were so serious about our growth goals. We were like, no, we want. We think we can hit those goals. Or, for example, I just couldn't wrap my head around. We were in 250 trial doors, and there's, you know, at that time, they now have 1,400 doors. At that time, I think they had 1200 doors. We were in such a small subset that we couldn't activate their national training programs. So I was like, I don't understand how people are going to sell through. We didn't have the budget for a field team. How are these products going to be sold by people who work in the store? If they don't know anything about the products, how do I train them? So I was asking them, like, can I participate in anything that's scalable? And they were like, no, you're in too few stores. So then my husband and I, we worked together. We literally. We didn't have the budget for anyone else to do this. We literally went personally to a hundred stores over the course of two months across the entire country. I mean, at one point I was like, I don't even know where I am. And we would spend, you know, four hours in each store and do the training ourselves, meet our community, and just. It was like, yes, it was physically very tiring, but it was such an important thing that we did because we really got to understand the retail store culture. We heard so much feedback from consumers on what they see in the product as a solution. Like, it was just invaluable. And so, you know, and our retail partner, I mean, Ulta, was like, nobody, nobody does this. And we were like, we just didn't. There's no playbook we had. So we just did things that made sense to us. And so, yeah, we approach things a bit differently. Even manufacturing products. I don't have a product development background. I didn't hire product developers. So I would just have these conversations with labs where they're like, you're asking for terms that, like, nobody asked for. I'm like, I know, but, like, I need you to work with me in this way. Otherwise, like, this is going to be hard for it to, like, happen. Like, innovation doesn't have, like, a timeline. We can take 10 years. They're like, everybody comes with a timeline. I'm like, well, we don't need a timeline. Like, it was just. Everything was just done. Yeah. Like, outside of this playbook. And I think it really worked to our benefit because you also end up saying no to things that really don't make sense. Even if, because you don't know better. You're like, I didn't realize you're supposed to say yes to that, but you just kind of like, hold on to the things that make sense for your business. So, yeah, I mean, now we do have, like, specialized teams and a lot of, like, veterans from the industry. But I would still say that a lot of our processes and how we do things is a bit unique because of just how we built it. But one of the key things is we are pretty. We have significant scale in our business, but we are still for Peach and Lily only at Ulta Beauty, our website, and minimally on Amazon. We have not expanded international yet, so we really took to heart, like, let's just go deep. And then, you know, the UK is always going to be there, Asia's always going to be there, but you just have to do one thing really, really well and then expand versus growing by just being, like, everywhere and having as much space as you can.
- [57:59]
A
Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think it's a really clever strategy we have to work towards wrapping up. There's a few more questions I'd love to ask you, especially around peach slices. So you guys have gone viral on TikTok. How do you personally view the balance between brand longevity and social media virality?
- [58:22]
B
I would say that trying to go viral is a really bad strategy because by nature you can't comp that, you know, you can't sustain that. You can't hang your hat on something that you inherently can't measure. So for starters, we never try to go viral, meaning we don't have marketing conversations where we're like, what's a strategy to go viral? Like, we have conversations that are more like, what is a repeatable, predictable marketing lever? And how do we measure that when you do go viral? Honestly, it terrifies me because now, I mean, supply chain issues aside, you're really, like, managing expectations across the board. You're like, this is just gravy on top. We are not counting on this for next year. We literally have conversations sometimes with retailers where we're like, we can't comp this next year. You know, we. This was not part of our strategy. This just like, happened to be the case. So that's like one part of it. So we don't try to go viral. It's pretty terrifying to go viral. And I'd rather build a very sustainable, disciplined business. Your growth doesn't have to be like double every year. You know, I think there's a way to grow really sustainably with, like a solid foundation. It doesn't mean the growth isn't rapid, but it means that you know how to control your growth. And I think that's been really important for us. And then finally, I think that within the organization we have a very disciplined approach to how we view that virality. Yes, it gives you extra cash flow that you weren't expecting to do, like, interesting marketing things. But again, that doesn't mean you can just now do whatever marketing thing. It still has to follow a very disciplined approach. Um, we also talk a lot about, you know, it's very tempting to be like, that went viral. So why don't we make another product that's kind of similar to that and it'll keep going viral, but we stick to. No, our product development is going to be driven by, you know, problem solution always. And so we just, like, really do that. And our product development team is actually a little bit like, they have a lot of autonomy. You know, product development, they make the decisions. Like ultimately, you know, it's very cross functional, very collaborative, a lot of open communication. But because a product development team focuses so much on scientific research and everything is science backed and we work with cell biologists, et cetera. Like, if the science backing isn't there and it's just like a fun idea that can be kind of trendy, we believe that that moment will just disappear because the real substance and science to deliver results for your skin isn't really there. It's like a fun thing to try out and then it dies. So we really focused on what can we make that's a really good solution that has to be science backed and clinically proven that once people use whether it's trendy or not, they will keep coming back too. And so our launches are never like, and we actually are proud of this. We never have launches that are like super spiky because it was just such a big, loud, buzzy launch. And then the sales come down and it just kind of fizzles. Most of our products are like a decent launch, but it just keeps growing. Like the sales on that SKU just keeps growing over time because so many people come back to it. So it really is a snowball that gets bigger and bigger. And so, yeah, that's how we think about virality. I always tell everyone, I'm like, going viral is not a good thing, guys. Like, that's not our goal.
- [62:22]
A
Yeah, it's for, for many founders listening to this, they would be, yeah, be quite surprised by that. So look, we have to work towards wrapping up. Alicia, you've shared a lot of gold, a lot of depth. So thank you. A couple last questions. One, across your 11 year journey, you know, can you talk us through kind of as a founder, you know, what, how big is this business? What can you share from metrics, financials? What can you share?
- [62:53]
B
Yeah, so it's now been 13 years, which I can't even believe, you know, call it $100 million business. And it's just, you know, it's growing rapidly. We are, you know, what's also been exciting is that we love that even when, you know, there are industry downturns, we've been able to maintain sustainable growth. And I think it comes back down to that disciplined approach we take. You know, it also helps the category is a bit more resilient. Um, but I also think it really is a testament to number one, product, product, product, like the amount of effort and research and zero compromises that go into a product. I mean it's like this running joke. We work with top tier labs and they're like, you are the most difficult partner we have by a long shot. But then they love us because the, you know, the business continues to grow with them, but the level of fine tuning and iteration on the product is just beyond. Beyond. But that, you know, I think the ability to grow in this like very sustained way through different environmental, you know, macro, environmental factors, et cetera, is that we don't relent on product quality. And then I think the second is we really haven't wavered from our very disciplined approach that we take to marketing. And those two things together have been powerful. And I think it's tempting to chase trends on both fronts because especially now with social media, you get real FOMO because you're looking at all these other businesses doing cool things and cool ideas and you can test something, but if that's not working for your business, it doesn't work for your business. And you know, maybe it's unsexy, but you stick with the marketing levers that work for your business. And some of them are cool, some of them are not. But you know, it can be very. Yeah. Cause a lot of like, comparison and just like they see, you know, but I always say like, you never know what that did for them. So we're going to look at our data and we're going to see the marketing levers that make sense for us, that are on brand for us, that help our community, but also that work for us and our marketing team, you know, is great about that. So, you know, but it's also with social media, we have like very colorful slack, slack, slack chat rooms where people are like, did you see this? Did you see that? You know, and it can be like overwhelming because you can also be like, are we not doing enough? Should we try that too? But I always say be aware of what's going on, but we stay in our lane, we focus on what works. And you know, that's, that's been, you know, a good formula for us.
- [66:05]
A
Yeah, and it's, it's easy to compare, you know, and look at other businesses and you don't even know what's going on behind the scenes. Oftentimes, you know, it might look like things are going well, but they're not exactly.
- [66:17]
B
Like there's a lot of things that, you know, make a business, I think appear a lot bigger or like more profitable or more successful, but you just really don't know. So, you know, I think you can take inspiration and see if there's anything that you might want to test into, but, you know, and our. Our. Our team is really good about that, but it's also just human nature. I get it. To be like, wait a minute, you know, yeah, 100%.
- [66:45]
A
Well, look, one last question, Alicia, then we'll wrap. What is your final words of wisdom? Parting advice for early stage D2C. Early stage E. Com founders looking to build an incredible brand, incredible company, just like you have over this past decade.
- [67:04]
B
So this one is, like, a little bit more general. And then there's, like, a couple tactical things. I would say that not giving up and just, like, grinding it out and sticking it out is one of the biggest ways to succeed. Because I do think that there are very few decisions in a business that is like, a fatal decision. There are always. You make decisions that tend to be incremental. I think, for example, like, when we're deciding, like, should we try this marketing initiative? We weren't taking our entire bank account and trying it, right? So even if it didn't work out, it's like, incrementally a loss, not like a devastating loss. So I think that even when those incremental things just kind of don't work out, you just get smarter from it and you just figure it out and you just, like, don't give up. And then eventually you'll get to a place where you're like, okay, this is working. This is not. So, I don't know, maybe it's because I've been at it for a long time, but I really do think, like, just not giving up, you know, and there are a lot of moments where I was like, yikes, that was not the right decision. But you just keep going. And then, you know, things just. The graph is not going to look like this the whole time. When you take a step back, I think it can look like that, but there's a lot of noise in between, you know, and in those noises, I think it's important to just, like, not give up as long as those signals are there. You know, if the signals aren't there and there really isn't any demand, that's time to pivot. But as long as the signals are there, and it's just more like, ooh, that was not a good decision. Ooh, that was like a pretty moderately sized bad decision. You know, like, you just still keep going. And then I think tactically, I would say it's so important to stay incredibly close to your consumer. I think those insights that are incredibly nuanced, it's your competitive edge. So, you know, going to those hundred stores and hearing from consumers, knowing what it's like to try to make a sale to a consumer, you know, that's so important. And even today I will read, go into Zendesk and read like consumer emails to our customer service team, like go into our DMs. Just staying so close to your consumer is incredibly important. And so finding time to do that, no matter how much your business grows, I think even, especially when your business grows, it's really important to do that. And then I would say, just like the other pieces, I truly believe product is the most important thing and those nuance insights drive the product. But then product quality is something that I, I believe you should be uncompromising about and you can figure out the marketing. But it's really hard to do marketing when your product isn't good because then you just have this leaky bucket and you don't hold on to your consumers.
- [70:52]
A
Yeah, I agree. Well, look, Alicia, thank you so much for your time. I know it's light for you in New York. This was a really valuable interview. It's going to help a lot of founders. So thank you again.
- [71:02]
B
Thank you so much for having me. This was a really fun chat. I appreciate it.
- [71:06]
A
Hey, Founder fam. Thank you so much for tuning in today and if you enjoyed this episode, please take the time to leave us a review and let us know what you think. This podcast is 100% free. We work so hard to go out and find the most successful entrepreneurs and founders in the world. Your feedback helps us grow, improve, and even bring on more incredible guests and insights. So if you have a second, please take a moment, leave us a review. It really makes a difference. Thanks again for listening and I'll catch you on the next show.