← The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan
The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan
583: The Branding Expert Behind Dior, L'Oréal & Mercedes | Camille Moore
00:55:28
Camille Moore is a branding strategist and the founder of Third Row—a creative firm that helps fast-growing companies build brands people obsess over.
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- [00:02]
A
Hey, founder fam. I want to talk to you about something super exciting. We're officially partnered with Omnisend, the email marketing and SMS platform built specifically for e commerce founders. We've been recommending Omnisend to founder students for a while now because it just works. Whether you're launching your first store or you're scaling to seven figures, it really helps you automate your marketing and get real results. Did you know, on average, OMNISEND customers make $68 for every $1 they spend, which is an insanely good return. And because you're part of the founder community, you get 50% off your first three months with the code FOUNDER50. Just head to omnisend.com founder without the e to get started. All right, now let's jump back into the show. Hey, guys. Welcome back to another episode of the Founder Podcast. Today we're joined by Camille Moore, the creative force behind some of the most iconic brand transformations on the Internet. Right now. She's known as the Internet's favorite creative director. She's built a reputation for helping founders go from forgettable to unforgettable with brand strategies that actually move the needle. So in this episode, it's a branding masterclass. She breaks down exactly what makes a good brand versus a great brand, why e commerce founders are getting social media completely wrong, and what you need to be doing. How to make sure your visuals, your message, your customer experience all work together like a symphony. And also you're going to learn why building founder led brands isn't just smart, it's a non negotiable right now. So if you've ever struggled to stand out online, building your brand, this is the ultimate crash course in branding that actually builds trust, drives conversion, drives sales, and scales your business. All right, let's get into it.
- [01:46]
B
Here are the stories.
- [01:47]
A
Learn the proven methods and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship. Welcome to the Founder podcast with Nathan Chan. Okay, well, we are here with the Internet's favorite creative director. And you've said If I asked 1000 people what a brand is, I get a thousand different answers. So what's the simplest but most overlooked way to define a brand?
- [02:19]
B
The simplest way to define a brand is that it's like a symphony. It's a collection of different pieces and parts that work together as a collective whole. And that's what most business owners miss when it comes to branding, is that they focus on the logo or on the website or they're trying to trace a trend because they want to go viral and they don't. Realize that every single aspect of their business, their experience, how their employees show up is all what makes the brand. So I like the example of a symphony because when you go to a see a show, right? If, if, if 10 of us went to go see a show, when they do their final applaud and they bow and they leave and we all look at each other, more or less, we're all going to say that was awesome or something was wrong, right? And you can't quite put your finger on it at that level because it's not like you had a rogue cellist or like someone stood up and did like a solo and it was bad. It's kind of how all of the pieces work together and that's often what makes or breaks a brand. It's not, you know, that there's a, it's such an amazing experience, but their socials are off. It's more that they don't understand the rule, how those pieces work together, hearing.
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A
It there a symphony. How can like early stage founders, especially in the ecom space, you know, what does that mean to like build a brand with trust from day one and build something in solid. Obviously it takes time, but from your perspective, how can people start? What are the, what are the things to start with?
- [03:48]
B
Well, the, the best place to start is actually on the foundations, which is really what the, the course that we did together at Founder. It's why it's so important because people get so excited, they, they start talk, they dropping the buzzwords, right? Like, what is the econ. What is the slider going to look like? What is the UGC that we're going to place? Like, they start looking at more of this, like the, the smaller pieces to it. Then what are you trying to achieve? Like, what is the goal? Who are you trying to speak to? What are their pain points? What is the, like trying to clearly identify who, who is your customer? Like, where do they spend? What are their issues? What is your point of view as a brand going into the market? Like, why are you going into the market? And what makes you different? If you are obsessed with answering those questions, your brand starts to make a lot more sense. So a lot of the people that come across my desk, they're like, I want to create a beauty brand. And they're like having developers like mock up their website and they're trying to like pull images off the site, but they're not asking the hard questions like, who are you wanting to sell to and what are, like, what are their pain points? What makes you different? So if you start there and really identify and spend the time in speaking though, then instead of just doing the exciting, pretty stuff, that's how you start to build the trust and credibility because you're speaking to and you're showing visuals that connect with that person.
- [05:13]
A
Yeah, you, you said something really interesting that I want to pull out, and it was that what makes you different. So we have, you know, an incredible community at founder, and I think that's something people really struggle with, but it is so key to getting cut through. Like, when I look at our successful students in our community, like, they ha. Like, it's clear. Like their products are different and it is clear. But. But then sometimes that's something that people get caught up with as well because they want to be so different. It's actually hard to bring the product to life, you know? You know, it has to be so unique. Like, how do you find that balance?
- [05:53]
B
Well, that's why you have to ask the questions properly. Right. Like, if you're, if you're a founder coming into the space, why are you deciding to launch this pro, like this product? Like, what problem or what compelled you to act? And if it doesn't have a clear so what? And a clear impact statement, the, like, the random strangers on the street aren't going to stop what they're doing. They're going to stop buying from Tide to buy from you. Unless it's like a real. It's speaks to a core pain point. Right. Whether it's price, whether it's friction, whether it's a gap in the market, whether it's consumer insights has changed. Like, maybe you're speaking to more of a clean audience. Maybe you're speaking to an audience that has young children. Like what. What do they care about? And once you have that identified, that's how you can figure out what is your. Like there's a reason why you're doing what you're doing and it's often it can. Maybe it's. It was that you had an allergy or a life moment or something that compelled you, or maybe you just didn't feel that there was something in the market that was quite good. But often those pieces, like those friction points, those, those compelling moments, is where the differentiator is sitting.
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A
Yeah, I see. So you break. You break branding like a. I get into three tiers. There's a brand, a good brand and a great brand. Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to talk more about that and really how founders can move up a level. And can you Give us some examples. Can you give us some examples?
- [07:19]
B
So the reason why I came up with the three different levels of a brand was truthfully, I was meeting with well intentioned small business owners, but they were delusional in who their competitors were. And the three levels is actually more helpful than hurtful. Like it's not designed to. So the whole, the story of how this came to be is I was working with this, this chain, one of the largest franchises in Canada and they're in a specific food category. And we were basically, I was helping them rebrand. They had over 500 locations. And I said, okay, well who is your competitor? And they said, the proverbial Chipotle. Like Chipotle was their competitor that has 30,000 locations, that's been in business for 30 years, that is owned by McDonald's, that is an absolute behemoth. And even at 500 stores. The reason why they were retaining me is that because they had no brand awareness, nobody knew who they were. And they were. The reason why they had grown to such a large footprint is because their franchising opportunity looked so attractive. And I'd heard so many businesses say I'm going to be the next Uber of X when really they weren't prepared. Like they really weren't a disruptor. They weren't really coming in to change the industry. There was maybe a technological piece that made them like slightly more advanced. But to call yourself an Uber of X or that Chipotle is your competitor, it's misaligned to where how you need to be thinking and launching into market. So it's difficult when I get clients that say, oh, road did this or summer Fridays did this. So therefore I'm thinking I need to do X and I'm like, well they're also doing like a hundred million dollars in sales per year. Like they can justify doing things at a different rate and spend on earned media value, which you can't at this stage. So to go back to it, a good brand, sorry, a brand, the first level of a brand is you ex. So this is like a local coffee shop. This is someone where they. There's not really consistency in branding. They have a business but you're not going to them because of their branding. It's often convenience. So the example that I like to give is here, near my office, there's a smoothie shop. The signage makes no sense. There's no consistency to the health food shop. They basically sell ice cream milkshakes and then they claim to be a health food store. They call themselves A clean earth. And I don't go to them because they're the best. I go to them because they're down the street. So that's the first level of a brand and that's where most brand owners sit. So the next level is a good brand and this is where the majority of small businesses and medium sized businesses spend their entirety of their, of their branding lives. So a good brand is defined by having a good product. So the product is good on its own, it has a good story. So it has the reason why you came to market or what you do has a good story to it. You have a good experience so you focused on the touch points, you focus, you understand Google reviews like you understand that experience matters. And then the fourth pillar is you're consistent. You have consistency because it doesn't matter how good your product is or how good your story is or how good your experience is because if you're not consistent, you lose brand trust. So that's the middle level of a brand, that's a good brand and that's where a lot lot of you as founder based businesses, you'll want to aim to be a good brand because that's a great place to be. You're consistent in your visuals, you show up consistently in your message and you're growing. The good brand category has a spectrum, right? So from a good brand could be a brand that's just launched to a brand that's been in business for 45 years but isn't quite as obsessed with those four pillars. So their product isn't great, their story isn't fantastic, their experience isn't through the roof and they're not absolutely obsessed with consistency, right? So the third pillar, that last option is a great brand. And this is the Chipotle, this is the ikea, this is the Four Seasons, this is the like the mecca of branding. And the fourth variable on top of not being good but being great is time. Because you need the variable of time. You need to be in market for 20, 30, 40 years to perfect your systems, to have tried and failed to have understood your customer and every decision you make, be obsessed with executing those four pillars in order to get there. So the examples and the reason why I like for the, for the great brand is it doesn't have to be luxury, like to be great, you don't have to be Four Seasons. You can be an Ikea, you can be a Walmart, but these brands, there's a clear promise and relationship that you get every single time. And that's what makes Them great. When I, if I was, if we were to both close our eyes and I said, imagine the Nike hotel, you and I would probably picture a very similar hotel. If we said the founder hotel, we would picture a, probably a similar hotel. If, if I, if you asked yourself to close your eyes and say, what would your business's hotel be if it's not a hundred percent clear, like a Walmart hotel or a Lululemon hotel or a Nike hotel, you're not a great brand yet you're in the good brand or a brand status.
- [12:45]
A
Yeah, I love, I love the way that you've broken it down. And you got me thinking, right? Like when I think about being brands, I've only built two companies, right? Built Founder and this E commerce brand, Healthish. And I, I learned, I learned from this guy. His name's Sean, forget his last name. But he, he was behind a lot of big E comm brands and he said to me, I interviewed him a long, long time ago, long, long time ago. And he said to me, Nathan, there's three really key components that I bring to every single brand that I create. The first obviously is great product, which you talked about. The second is great design, look and feel. And then the last one was ambassadors. I need to have ambassadors, people behind the brand that we can align with and showcase. And I took that like this is early days found like in the first year or two, probably first year I took that and that's always sat with me like I'm always like product, product is everything. And then I'm massive on design. I think design is how it looks, but it also is how it makes people feel. But then lastly is, is ambassadors. I'm curious around ambassadors because that is a key component. You spoke about road, right? Like, yeah, clearly like so where does ambassadors fall into kind of the branding sphere, building trust, getting cut through, especially for new brands.
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B
Oh my gosh, it's, I mean it's huge. And this is where social media has really become the biggest living extension of your brand, especially for E Comm. Because you, you predominantly don't have brick and mortar, so your brand effectively lives online. So when it comes to like building a community, building a tribe, having evangelists, which is basically three different ways of saying what you just said. You have to understand two things. One is the power and importance of having a founder led brand. So the big thing is to have evangelists, they have to buy into something. And in the modern age it's often by like buying into someone, right? Like getting behind with someone believes in so the biggest problem is that 30 years ago faceless brands were the thing because the Internet of things didn't exist. So what these big behemoth businesses would do is they would tap into celebrities, into models, into what people could only have relationships with at that time at a grand scale. So if they hired Sidney Crawford to, to be the model of the brand new red lipstick for CoverGirl, the Enough of that target market masses who she was and felt connected in order to buy that product. In today's day, we don't feel connected to celebrities because we never knew them. And we can now know people on Instagram and TikTok in a much more intimate way than this like PR placement of, you know, JLO showing up on a cover. Like we never knew these people and they were like highly polished PR kind of dolls that we never really could see into their life. All we could see is what the tabloids would tell us. So when it comes to building a tribe and evangelists, that's why having a founder led brand is not a buzzword, but it's the way to be in today's age. Because people can't tell that you're different or they can't connect with you if you're not sitting like standing on the roof of your brand and shouting from the rooftops of why you're different and why you're special. And I had a call this past week with the biggest filter brand, like biggest filter hair and beauty brand and they were number one in the market. They have the most superior product. They spent all this money doing these tests in these labs and she's losing to brands that have better packaging when she's a superior product because all of these tests and these studies she's paid for, nobody's reading them if she as the founder is not showing up and is because like we buy from people, we don't buy from flat graphics, right? So that's, that's number one. Number two is understanding the role in which social media plays. So a big thing I talk about is inner circle versus outer circle content. So when you're building a brand you need to understand the difference of creating awareness, creating a doing things that are more viral, more break the news that speak to a larger audience. But then you also need to be doing stuff that's more inner circle. So that's building the community, investing in the tribe. So I'm going to give you a quick analogy. So I use this analogy for two different things. For how to create content that connects, but how to basically also bring Community members into your brand vibe. So imagine you're a bus driver and you are going down a small town main road and you as a bus driver, you're going to the big city, you're going to New York. So you need to let people know that are in this town, that are on the road, on the street, that the bus is coming. It's the only bus for this week and it's going to New York. And if they want to get to New York, the time is now. In order to get on the bus, basically what you want to do is you want to have your message, get people to stop what they're doing and to see that the bus is coming. That is your first goal. Your second goal is to get people to decide to come to the bus stop and to get on the bus. Because that's when they're now moving from they've seen your brand to they're now clicking on your page and now clicking on your website. They're interested in what, where your bus is going, they're going to come check it out, see how much the fare is, see how long the ride is. They're interested in coming on. But then the third huddle that you have to overcome is you want to keep them on the bus and you want them to be with you on your journey. So that's where when it comes to, you have to create content and think in your brand in terms of how do I keep people to come on the bus and to go with me where I want to go and the reason why I liked you have to compel them to want to move and go with you. So it's not just like you got to build an evangelist, you got to build the tribe. You have to give so much value away. You have to tell them, look, I'm going to take you to New York for free, but you got to get on this bus and you got to stay on for the 14 hour trip. And that's what you've done with founder. Right. People love founder because Founder gives away so much value. They come on the bus, they stay on your bus. They are evangel, they're evangelists. For the trip, though, the trip's amazing. You got to come. It's got air conditioning in here, we got flat screen TVs. It's amazing. And that's what builds your brand so that you end up becoming a bigger, a great brand.
- [19:25]
A
Yeah, I see. And so when it comes to you are, there's a lot I want to unpack here as well. We talked about Personal brand. This is massive. I agree with you. It's all about founder led content. Before we started shooting, like this is something I'm doubling down on. I wish I haven't even told you this. So we spoke late last year and I said, oh, I'm going to start working my personal brand. I'd love to get your, your feedback. I'm starting now and I'm like, I'm kicking myself. I didn't do this like 7, 8, 9, 10 years ago when I was like early days founder. Oh my God. Like founder would be a totally different business. Like but it'd be like, like it'd be insane. Right? Like if, imagine if I wish I had a documented everything. People can kind of just put the pieces. Yeah, I wish I shared more. So I want to touch on the personal branding pace. What a founders do though. If we know it's important, right. And we talk about, you know, ambassadors, you have to be your number one ambassador for your brand. That's really key these days. How can founders start? Because for many it's so scary pulling out the camera. What do you say? How do you take people on the journey? Wanting to make it perfect. Like that's a big sticking point even for myself. Like that's what held me back like for a long time I didn't know what to do. Like it's not that I didn't know what to do. I was scared of what other people would think of me.
- [20:48]
B
Totally. Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna challenge first and then I'm gonna soften it by bringing in areas to explore that, that make it easier. But the first thing is it, it's, it is hard and it is hard, it is hard for everyone. It is hard for people that have scaled multi seven figure businesses. It is hard for me. I went to school for the performing arts. I hated creating content. I felt that going performing on stage, performing to a camera, it was the even. I even did some like on stage work. It was the hardest transition because I wasn't reading a script. I had to like talk to the like it was like you were sitting in front of me. Like it was entirely different. It sucks. But the reason why it sucks is why it's worth doing. Because that is the way to get ahead. Because it sucks for everybody. So the sooner you bite the bullet, you start doing it, the faster you can get ahead and the sooner you are future proof. Like we are facing an age of AI avatars. There is going to be an entire swath of fake businesses that are Popping up on Instagram with AI avatars that. But it's not to scare you, it's to remind you that people buy from people. But you have to start before there's more because the algorithm is only going to become flooded and there's a learning period. And that's the reality is that if you're going to suck in the beginning, it's going to be uncomfortable in the beginning. But if you want to do anything great, you have to work through that period of uncomfortability and you have to continue to reinvent and push yourself. Like I had a conversation with a client and she's very to the point, she's probably my favorite client. She says things as they are and she doesn't hold anything back. And she said, camille, I wouldn't hire you based on your content now. Um, but I like basically she wouldn't have hired me based on stuff that I was posting at that current time. And the content really wasn't performing as well. My sales had been down. She wasn't wrong. But it was what I had to hear. And it was not convenient to hear as a business owner that was in autopilot that was like it was already work to do it. But to hear that I needed to change and to reinvent was like the worst thing to hear. But it's what, it's what you need to be prepared as a founder is that there's, there's it there. This piece of it sucks. But it's why being a founder isn't for the faint of heart. It's never been easier to open a Shopify account. It's never been easier to get AI generated graphics. Like the piece that you have to bite the bullet on is the personal branding. Now the second piece to it before I soften it is the other thing is the reason why it's hard is because social media is so easy to consume. So we went to school and we learned math and we go to school and we learn science and philosophy and we're tested on it. We read the textbooks and we see study but we don't study social media. Like we haven't gone to school for social media. So when you're a business owner, social media is your number one vital asset. And it's often going to the most like under qualified person in the business. And that's where I'm, I give the biggest criticism to these huge brands that hire me is these massive companies come to me, they're like, Camille, we're shadow banned. And I Look, I take 10 seconds. I'm like, no, you're not shadow band. Your content sucks. And I'm like, who's doing your content? He's like, we've got these great interns. They just graduated from Cornell. They're 21, 22 and 24. And I'm like, you are a multinational company. You are. You have a, an over a billion dollar revenue per year. And interns are doing your Instagram and your TikTok. People who are not paid at the company are running your socials and you're paying me money. And you're like, something's not working here. And I'm like, this. I just feel like it becomes business therapy because we don't like, people think that they're too old. They think that, like, they don't get it. They don't spend time on socials and they just like, hope that, like, one day it's going to hit them on their head, that they're going to like, start to understand it. The people who get it are the people that study, obsess, save, come back. The evolution in where I started creating content to where I am now was not linear. It didn't happen overnight. It's not because I am 30. It's because I spent an obsessive amount of time saying, this is what's going to change my life and I have to study this. So the biggest thing I tell people is like, study content. So one of the things I get people to do, I call it the 10 by 10 rule. And basically you go and you take. And this is a good thing for you two to do, Nate. So you take 10 people that you respect online, people that you see as competitors or just content that you like, people's pages you keep coming back to. And for all 10 of them, I get you to go through each of their posts and study their top 10 performing pieces of content. So look for the 10 that got the most, the most engagement, the most views. Engagement can be a separate then of views. Look for what performed the best and write down the post and save the post. Within each of those posts, I want you to steal like an artist. Take the Austin Cleon approach. Don't copy it. Steal like an artist. What is it about that piece of content that did well? What was the hook? What was the visual hook? What was the audio hook? What was the caption? What happened in the video? How fast was the video? What was the middle point? What was the rehook the subject and the value in the call to action? Once you break all of that down you are now starting to think about socials like you are in school and it becomes less overwhelming now if camera is not for you. This is also why I want you to do the 10 by 10 analysis. Because you can find 10 accounts that maybe they do voiceovers, maybe they do swipe throughs. I've seen you do a lot of swipe throughs for your personal brand. Maybe they're doing montages or maybe they're getting somebody else to film it. Or maybe they're sitting down and they're doing curated 10 interviews or they have employees doing EGC and they pop in. Whatever you find that performs on those 10 accounts is what gives you the permission to try and test things out.
- [26:38]
A
Yeah. This is a brilliant strategy and it works. That's like. It is exactly what, like Success leads clues. Yeah. 100. It's, it's what I've always done. It's what. That's where I got the swipe throughs from. Right. Like I can see certain carousels, I can see certain hooks. I can just keep testing, testing, testing. The reason I like the carousels is I can train AI to keep getting them better and better and better. I can do it with the videos, but I find videos a bit more work. But we're getting there, we're getting there one step at a time. But yeah, that's gold. So, all right, so that's the personal brand piece ambassadors. Talk me through. I guess you talk about having the customer as the hero of your brand and this idea of.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Of story brand. Talk me through that because I remember when we last spoke, I thought this was really, really powerful.
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B
Well, the biggest thing that, that well intentioned business owners miss is that they're shouting at the customer instead of guiding them on their way. So the big, the big thing is that everyone is living their own lives. They are the number one character in their own life and they're, they're navigating through time and space in a way of giving themselves more comfort, less friction and less pain. So oftentimes your product is a solution to a problem that they have or should be positioned as a solution to the problem that they have. And that's affecting effectively what Donald Miller how to Build a Story Brand does. It really is a TED talk. It's a super simple concept. But sometimes simple is like what kicks you in the butt the most. Because oftentimes business owners get so in the weeds where they're talking in a way like they're credentializing. Right. Like they're just laundry listing These points or like where they went to school or like what they've done and you're just like talking at someone while they're walking by. They're not getting on your bus. You have to position your bus as I'm going to take you to New York. You want to be a singer, darling? Well, I'm going to Broadway, so if you want to come with me, this is the way to the game, this is the way to the show. And that's how you have to be thinking about your product. If you're a, if you're selling face cream. Well, what is their pain point? Their pain point is that they don't want to age and they're sick of being duped, they're sick of being scammed, and they can't trust the skincare industry. Well, that goes back to the beginning of the, our podcast where I was like, what is your point of view? What is your pain point? Why are you coming into this? What does your customer care about? Like, the best branding isn't complicated, it's simple. And to go back to the story brand concept, it's basically understanding the simple arc of the best stories that have ever existed. So what makes Harry Potter and amazing, or every single story amazing? There is a character who has a problem, who goes on a journey, who meets a guide who is faced with. Basically there's like two options. They can become evil or they can become good in some different version of those two paths. And the idea is you are a guide that's going to guide them to the best future. If they decide to go with you, they're going to become the ultimate wizard at Hogwarts, or they're going to stay as a human and rot under the stairs back in London, and they're not going to be able to live this fantastic wizard life. Like, there's basically two options and the goal is that you, you're showing them that if they don't go on this journey or this guide with you, it's going to result in the worst alternative or it's gonna basically end up in the positive end. And the reason why that book is so good is that's, that's what communicates and works for the customer. Like, when you think of the best products, Yeti. Yeti keeps your drinks colder, longer, Hotter, like longer. It's a, it's a product that lasts forever. It can't be destroyed. And it solves the issue of when you're out in the woods or hunting or camping, your stuff is going to stay cold and Hot. Like, it's really that simple. And the brands that win are the brands that speak to their customers instead of like at them, hoping that someone's going to buy them because they're just saying how great they are.
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A
Yeah, you make, you make a great point around stories. Like, that's something that is never like from a marketing standpoint, from a brand building standpoint, that's never going to go away. Right. Like if you can just continually tell good stories and that's something that human. Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot these past 12 months, 24 months. And really focusing. Like, I look at my content that I'm putting up from a personal standpoint and it's the stories, it's the stories that stick. It's when we speak to students, right. People in our community, we want to hear their stories, want to tell their stories. When we speak to founders, we want to tell their stories and we want to communicate that. I'm curious, you talked about consistency.
- [31:24]
B
Yeah.
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A
What do you mean by that? For, for many, is it just posting consistently? Like, like, what does that mean? And, and how can like. Because I think it can be so overwhelming for an early stage founder to know they've got to be consistent with their brand.
- [31:38]
B
Totally. Well, consistency means being consistent in literally every facet. And that's what makes, makes like that's what makes going from a brand to a good brand to a great brand so exhausting in a lifetime achievement. Like, you don't go from being a brand new business to Trader Joe's or to Four Seasons in a year. Right. Like, that's why consistency when it comes to like. And when you talk to anyone, whether it's like the biggest founders or whether it's bodybuilders or like in any area, it's about showing up every day and doing, doing the same thing to work towards what you're working towards. So when I talk about consistency in a simple form, it means ensuring that everything you do is consistent. So what I break down in the course is I talk about brand pillars. So brand pillars are the four Ps and it's your purpose, it's your position, it's your personality and it's your perception. So your position is very much your, the real estate that you want to own. Like, what is that usp? What is your point of view? What is that corner of the Internet that you want to be yours? Your purpose is your mission, vision. It's your so what? It's, why are you doing this? Why are you here? Your personality is how you outwardly want to show up. So it's like how you outwardly present yourself and your personality is how you're inwardly perceived. So they're very close, but they're slightly different. Like, the way that I show up is very intentional for the way that I want to be perceived, but there's a nuance into basically how the two of the meat. So I make sure that I invest in high quality productions. I make sure that I invest in. I've done Korean color analysis. I went all the way to Korea to learn, like, what colors I wear. So I only show up on camera. And like, the only colors that I'm. Because I've got. I've got three seconds. So I want, whenever people see me to be like, she's polished, she's put together. She's expensive. Right? Like, I want there to be a perception to the way that I show up. But she's real. She's a. She's. She's a disruptor, but she's knowledgeable. She's blunt. Like, I come up intentionally so that you perceive me in the way that I want to be perceived. So when it goes back to the consistency you need to be obsessed with. When someone designs a graphic, it's not like, so what? Whatever, let's get it out there. It has to match your brand. And I talk about in the. In the course, the. One of the biggest brands that I'm so critical of is, like, these collaborations. So the one I always use is like, Gucci and North Face. So Gucci and North Face did this collaboration and it was like, everyone's like, whoa, like, Gucci and North Face. Who would have thought? This is crazy. And it got buzz. But if you actually were to analyze both brands through the brand pillars, Gucci and North Face's audience, it's not a consistent pairing. Like, it doesn't actually make any sense. People that wear Gucci do not wear North Face. People that buy North Face do not buy Gucci. And the reason why Gucci is in such a hole right now is because they've been making its brand death by a thousand cuts. Your brand doesn't die by a proverbial Bud Light moment. You don't, like, absolutely tank. And people just walk away for the brand. Like, we're done with you. It's a. It's a slow death by a ton of wrong moves. And if you're building your brand, if you're starting out and you are posting randomly, there's no consistency, there's no focus on your pain. Point, your point of view, what you're trying to achieve, what that visual needs to look like. You're not going to be memorable and you're not building that brand. So you have to be what I. When I comes to consistency, it's hard for me to explain because every, everyone can have their own issue. But like one, when you talk about posting consistency, like for sure, like if you're trying to build a brand, you're posting once per week. That's not consistent. You're not showing up and communicating and trying to evangelize to your community in a way that's going to build it to where you want to go. So consistency in every sense of the word, in every area of your business matters. I have to be consistent in how I treat my customers. I have to be consistent in how I show up on video. I have to be consistent in the way that I dress. I be consistent in the, the amount of times that I post because I'm trying to build a community that trusts me and comfy for information. If it's not convenient for me to post for 3 weeks because my business is so busy, I'm not building a brand because I am not consistent.
- [35:51]
A
Yeah, look it, yeah, makes total sense. And I'm curious when it comes to founders starting out and having that consistent, like even look, feel like that's crazy that you went to Korea to work out kind of your styling. I think I remember the stories of you doing that. That was really cool. Like what can founders do when it comes to just working that out.
- [36:13]
B
But, and that's where you have to really understand your brand because the Internet is the most incredible place like you need to develop. So in the course, I give you all of the stuff to do your, your full brand core. So from beginning to end, going through all of the pieces for mapping out your brand, once you have that, this is where Chad is your friend. Based on all of the parameters of my brand core, what are the best for me to look at, to study for a 10 by 10 comparison, for me to analyze, to develop a marketing and branding strategy for me to ensure that my visuals are consistent? This is where you can go into the research phase because if you're a startup lemonade stand, it's not, it's not good for you to be studying road and what they're doing on socials because they, they're at a different place, they've got a different budget. So I'm not asking for you to proverbially fly to Korea to do your Korean color analysis. But I'm asking for you to do your research so that you have the autonomy to understand what's needed for your brand. If you're just hopeless and you're like, I don't know what to do with where AI is, with where social media is, with where YouTube is, with their founder is, you're not going to be able to compete. So you need to get into the space because someone that's launching a clean bamboo underwear line needs to do a very different brand analysis than someone that's dropping a viral sour to spicy candy on TikTok. Right? Like those are very different strategies. One is like, like super shocking in your face aggressive. The other one is very education focused, comparing why it's better, what makes it more like, they're very different strategies. And that's probably the best thing for me to underscore simply is that what makes a brand good is that it uniquely and strongly understands itself. And branding is an exercise of defining a thing that, that is soul, like that that owns real estate in somebody's mind, but it doesn't tangibly exist. And that's why when you said, said if I was to ask a thousand people what is a brand? Why I get a thousand different answers is because a brand is, it's, it's everything and it's nothing all at one time. Like, what is Apple like? Is Apple my phone or is it the way that it makes me feel? And that's like what it makes the branding so complicated is that Apple's branding is so good because it really understands Apple's brand. So if you want to do good at branding, you have to go through the work to really understand your brand. And that's why this is like, like esoteric and, and vague. It's because we're trying to create a thing that's going to live in society as part of the zeitgeist, but it doesn't actually exist.
- [38:50]
A
Yeah, it's how it, how it makes you feel. Right. That's, that's, that's what really, really, really resonates with me. Like, how does that brand make you feel? Does it. What, what emotions does it stimulate? And how can you build a relationship with people at scale through your brand? Like that's what all businesses. Right. And I'm curious around design and visual, talk to me around visuals. Like, how important is it the positioning brand visuals, logo, color, type. Like how much of it matters? How much of it doesn't?
- [39:28]
B
It matters to a point. So branding and visuals, branding and visuals, like, let's not get it twisted like they really matter. But it's not everything. And I think that's, it's. It's getting to a point where it's easy to manufacture something that looks good. It's harder to elicit something that makes people feel. And I think there's been a really big pivot in the last two to three years with AI, right? Like the ability for AI for like, places like Creative Market and templates on Squarespace and Shopify that like come out of the gate looking so beautiful and so like, so like, they're just for what you can get access to now from a ui. UX is like, it's crazy. And so that's the problem is that it. I don't want to speak to, like, it can't be like janky, you know, like, it needs to look professional. Like it. There's like a minimum standard. Know if you're, if you want to be successful. But then the problem is I see a lot of brands that look good but have no weight or meaning. Right? And so branding is, is substantive, like a good brand. It means more than just the visuals. And that's why it's, it's important to think in terms of social media is about building a community. And building a community indirectly drives business. So the whole idea of understanding that you're like your visuals and way swing looks gets you to a point. But then you actually have to keep people engaged. That's why that bus metaphor is so good. Like, your bus has to look like it's not going to kidnap you and it's taking you to like a back alley and it's going to like, people aren't jumping on that bus. People aren't even going to decide to like, look at the bus. So that's why that metaphor you just, I want you to keep coming back to, if I'm on a bus, does my bus look good enough? Okay, now my bus looks good enough, but how do I get people to be on the bus and stay on the bus? If you keep thinking in those simple terms, even when it comes to my content, like, I can think of a really good idea, but if it's not keeping people on my bus, it's not worth me doing it. So I. It has to be like, valuable to keeping people engaged because we are in such an attention deficit. Like, it's just, it's crazy. Like if you post three bad or four bad or five bad video, you can be suppressed by the algorithm because all that Instagram and TikTok care about is keeping you on the platform longer so they can sell more ads. So if you just start putting out, that's, that's why this piece on community is so important and value is so important because it doesn't matter how nice your logo is, if you're putting out meaningless crappy content, you're going to get suppressed by the algorithm and you're not going to be reaching your audience.
- [42:14]
A
Yeah, no. All makes sense. Align. I'm curious. I'd love to just delve a little deeper on the visual identity piece because sometimes I see people's brand and they, or this business and you go and it's, it's a really tough one because they don't have an eye for design. Right. Like they just, they just don't. And I'm not saying I do but what I, what I will say is, is from experience there's a reason. You know all these top startups, top companies, they always like, they always double down on design. Like, like they always do a rebrand or they do like they're constantly doing. Not constantly but they're every now and then doing rebrands. They are constantly like, you know, you look at any company that's raised like a series A, oftentimes a big part of it is a rebrand and they double down with like the best design firms because these VCs and really just like smart business people, they know all these top companies in Silicon Valley, right. All these top tech stubs, they have awesome branding because they know it builds trust and it's worth in gold. Right. But it's, and it's something that doesn't. You don't have to, from my experience, you don't have to do it it with like a crazy budget. Like you can build a great brand visually now with AI, with the power of these online platforms like Behance or, or Dribble finding Crate, great in just finding amazing talented designers in total sorts of places around the world that can really help you at a cost affordable rate. But yeah, I just, I just want to double down with you on like, like it's just like a thing that I think is. So it is important. It's not everything but yeah, I just, I think it's something that is a low hanging fruit.
- [44:17]
B
It really is. But the, the piece that's a bit complicated depending on where people are at is it's a cost of doing business to have a good looking brand. Like it's unexcusable to not have visually a strong brand. With everything you said like Upwork, Fiber, Behance dribble like you can really access at a price that has never been accessible to business owners in the history like ever. For that level of expertise in design, to have a strong design. It's difficult though when you say like I don't have an eye because I also do feel too that you, the marketing is kind of like bookkeeping and, or like, like where it's hard to trust the person in front of you. Like expertise is loosely handed. So that's the only like that's the only hard part to it. And that's why I just want to. I triple down on. You have to study your brand core and you have to know your audience or you have make an investment with the right player because it does matter so much and there's such a variance in what's out there. So you either have to do the work to get to know it better or spend the money to ensure that it's done by someone at the level that you can trust. Because that's the other thing too is that there's just. But then the third piece to this is a lot of brands, you can build a community by pain points and by showing up and by being vulnerable and shell and telling a story and do really well through grassroots guerrilla efforts because people want to connect with people. So you could have a fantastic product and you could. And worry less on the packaging because VCs don't care about the personality, they don't care about the person. Right. Like I have a client that does 12 million per month on TikTok and her branding is good. It's not through the roof but it's that she's using TikTok to sell products at a low price point. So it's, it's just there's more options to it as only packaging because they're looking for price point valuation and just as a space for you to know that brand can exist through story and through understanding the fundamentals of Pain point and what your target customer wants.
- [46:18]
A
Love it. Awesome. So let's switch gears. You do a lot of audits and brand fixes. That's a big piece of your company. I'm curious, what's the most common thing that you find that founders completely miss?
- [46:36]
B
That they are trying very hard at socials but it is a copy and paste very aesthetic grid that says means and does nothing for their target customer. So the biggest issue I face is people who are trying very hard but aren't hyper focused on their brand. So if I was to swap their handle with another handle in Their safe space, like jewelry, is a big one. They often look exactly the same, like grid to grid. And they're not focused on understanding that social media has changed to become a secondary website. So they're not scannable, they're not snackable, they're not answering the who, what, where, why and how. Like in every. Basically the question I want you to ask yourself is, if you were to go to your page right now, I call this the Instagram tag. If you were to go to your Instagram page right now and look at the nine top, like squares, the three, three, three on your page, could a cold lead tell you who you are, what you do, why you're the best product or service for the job, and how they could, like hire you or access your product if you can't say yes to all four of you, four of these questions, you have a brand problem on socials. And that's often the biggest issue I see is that they're not using socials in a connect and to soft sell for what they do, which is what people use social media for, is to verify.
- [48:03]
A
Yeah, yeah. That I, I love what you said around. It's your second website. I, I, that is, that is spot on. Like when somebody, like if I tell my girlfriend I'm interviewing this person, she goes to the brand. Yeah, Goes the brand's Instagram, right? Doesn't even go to the website. And then judges, judges by how many followers. And followers mean nothing, right? This is coming from us. We have over 4, close to 4 million followers just on Instagram alone. Like it means nothing, right? Like it's all about the engagement. It's all about all the stuff we're talking about throughout this podcast.
- [48:38]
B
And the reason why it's also important too is people don't follow. So a lot I get a lot of questions on, like, ROI for social media, right? Because people are spending money on agencies or on photo shoots or whatever. Right? Time and money. And they're like, I haven't gotten a single business or a single sale off of Instagram, but the question is, what business have you lost? Because you don't stand up to the verification. And that's the thing is, like, whenever I'm giving big talks and these, it's part of my keynote, I always ask this and I go, how many of you here, when I get to this point in the keynote, like, how many of you here have searched me up with me speaking, like, to verify that I know what I'm talking about and I should be in front of you on this Subject. And almost the entire room's hand goes up and I say, how many of you looked on Instagram first? And all of their hands stay up. And I go, how many of you then went to my website? Maybe, maybe 10 hands stay up. And it's always like, it's just like these, like the rogue people in the back. Like, yeah, maybe I went to your website because I'm bored. You know, I'm in the back, back. It's always Instagram. And I'm saying, and I, at the same time, I go, how many of you decided to follow me? And it's not that I'm asking for you to follow me, it's that you don't feel compelled because that's how you verify. We go on Instagram to look at restaurants before we go to book the restaurant. We don't follow them, we don't like their posts, but we, if their Instagram doesn't look good, we're not going to book there, we're going to go somewhere else. And if their Instagram looks great, we're going to book there. We're not going to say we found you on Instagram because we didn't find you on Instagram, we just searched you on Instagram to see if we decided if we wanted to go.
- [50:17]
A
Yeah. And it's a subconscious thing. Like, you know, like, you're not even consciously doing it. Like, it's, it's very subconscious.
- [50:23]
B
I watch people all the time where I'll be, they'll be like, where did you get that bag? And I'm like, oh, you know, I got it wherever. And I'm like watching them, like, while we're doing something, they're like searching it up on Instagram. They'll like, do the two to three point pass. They like lock their phone and they're like, like. And they're making a decision. So that's why it's. When we talk about community, when we talk about consistency, when we talk about brand, like, that's why all of these things, they matter so much. But they're going to mean very different things to, to each of your businesses and where you are in the journey.
- [50:51]
A
Yeah. Yep. Yep. Okay. Well, look, Camille, I could talk to you all day. We have to work towards wrapping up. I'm going to ask a couple last questions.
- [51:00]
B
Okay.
- [51:01]
A
What's one negotiation? What's one non negotiable branding principle that you'd give to any founder starting today?
- [51:09]
B
Non negotiable branding principle for founders starting today? To me, the non negotiable is having organic socials. So it's looking at lo fi instead of hi fi. Lo fi is iPhone shot content. Hi fi is like high fidelity photo shoots, you know, like super well placed. There is a role for both. But we don't go on socials to be sold to. So understanding that organic role of socials is truly how you scale the brands that are hyper focused on ads alone. It they, it they just, they're suppressed by the algorithm. Like nobody goes on socials to be like shown your billboard, right? Like you have to give value. So value based organic socials is the non negotiable because if you're an E comm you will not scale if you don't understand organic socials. There's a rule for ads, but there's a rule for really being organic, looking more legitimate, leaning into more things like UGC or egc. User generated content, employee generated content. You need to show a humanness to your brand to win today.
- [52:13]
A
Couldn't agree more. With AI saturated content, it's easier than ever to create content. It's easier than ever to start a Shopify brand or store. How do you think branding is going to evolve over the next three to five years?
- [52:27]
B
I think it's going to be scary and I think all of the worst things that we can think about are going to be real. Like we're already seeing it. There's so many lawsuits of creators and celebrities being used without like in like podcasts that never existed talking about how much they love this product that they've never used or never heard of of. You're seeing so many brands pop up with a landing page, a 40% off PDP with these like ads of famous people, like using the product and then like disappearing after two weeks. I think all of that's coming faster than we think. But I think that at the end of the day we are a world filled with a ton of humans. Humans are going to want to buy from humans. The best way to start connecting with humans is to start now because like you said, you wish you started 10 years ago. For those who haven't started now, you're going to regret if you don't start now, ten years from now. So it's, you have to embrace what we can't change, but you have to get ahead of it because the change is here. Like AI is bigger than the printing press. We've never seen anything like this in human existence. And as long as humans are still running the world, humans are going to want to buy from humans. So you can't ignore what you could ignore in the past because, bluntly, the world has changed.
- [53:55]
A
Yeah. And it's. It's. It's easier than ever to create content. It's getting way more noisy. So that. So the sooner you start, the better. Well, look. Thank you so much, Camille. There you have it, guys. This was a next level branding master class in the past hour. If you even just got a small fraction of value, you have to enroll in Camille's platform. You have to. If you've got a small fraction of value, you have to enroll in Camille's incredible program on the Founder plus platform. It will be going live very, very, very soon. It's an amazing program. Branding comes up a lot. If you want to create an incredible symphony that stands out out, that gets heard, gets listened to, you've got to go at this program. All right. Thank you so much, Camille.
- [54:43]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [54:44]
A
Hey, founder fam. Thank you so much for tuning in today and if you enjoyed this episode, please take the time to leave us a review and let us know what you think. This podcast is a hundred percent free. We work so hard to go out and find the most successful entrepreneurs and founders in the world. Your feedback are helps us grow, improve, and even bring on more incredible guests and insights. So if you have a second, please take a moment, leave us a review. It really makes a difference. Thanks again for listening and I'll catch you on the next show.