← The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan
The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan
595: She Turned $900 Into a $10M Accessories Brand in 3 Years | Pia Mance
00:53:20
Pia Mance started Heaven Mayhem in 2022 with just $900 and scaled it into a $10M accessories brand in under three years.
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- [00:02]
A
Hey, founder fam. I want to talk to you about something super exciting. We're officially partnered with Omnisend, the email marketing and SMS platform built specifically for e commerce founders. We've been recommending Omnisend to founder students for a while now because it just works. Whether you're launching your first store or you're scaling to seven figures, it really helps you automate your marketing and get real results. Did you know, on average, OMNISEND customers make $68 for every $1 they spend, which is an insanely good return. And because you're part of the founder community, you get 50% off your first three months with the code. Founder50. Just head to omnisend.com founder without the e to get started. All right, now let's jump back into the show. How do you turn just $900 into a $10 million accessories brand in just under three years? Well, that's the story of today's guest, Pia Mance. She's the founder of Heaven Mayhem, which is a bold fashion forward accessories label that's gone from handmade Jew to being stocked in self fridges and worn by celebrities like Hailey Bieber, Emily Ratajkowski, and Lori Harvey. And in this episode, you're going to learn how Pia launched without outside capital. The scrappy grassroots tactics she's used to make her brand look bigger than what it was, why done is better than perfect, and how it's fueled her rapid growth and how building true community, not just customers, has become her unfair advantage. So if you want to build a brand from, from scratch and scale it into something remarkable without much capital, then this is the interview for you. Hear the stories, learn the proven methods, and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship. Welcome to the founder podcast with Nathan Chan. First of all, Pierre, welcome. The first question that I wanted to ask you is, from modeling and influencing to founding Heaven Mayhem, what pivotal moment made you decide it was time to build your own brand rather than being the product of other people's businesses?
- [02:12]
B
Yeah, I think for me it was no pivotal moment, but just like tiny little life experiences. My whole life, I've been modeling since I was like 12. I have been with my husband since, well, we met when we were 12 and he has a family business. So all of these moments, I'm like on set with a founder on set with a creative director at his family dinner table with them talking about business. And I would just, I'm picking up and eavesdropping these things for like my whole life. And then I'm kind of was like I want to do something for me and have something for my own. I didn't necessarily want to have, like, a huge business and be, like, a CEO or a founder. That wasn't really my goal. I just wanted to create something and have something of my own, but I had no idea what it was. I just knew that, like, my. I wanted a brand. I wanted a product of my own.
- [02:57]
A
Yeah. And look, you've built this incredible brand. You're building an accessories empire now. You've. You've moved into many other categories, but you only started in 2022, so you launched in 2022, and you famously started with $900. So I really want to break that down. Like, how did you allocate the initial capital? You know, what was, you know, the very first scrappy steps that you took to launch? Because a lot of people always think, oh, well, I want to start an E commerce business, but I need to raise money or I don't have enough money. But you kind of really, kind of broke that myth.
- [03:38]
B
Yeah. So we. I will, like, give the backstory. I was living in London. I'd had the idea for Heaven Mayhem. I'd started putting a few wheels in motion, and then everything kind of came crashing down when I moved to la, because I couldn't really do. Do that here. I didn't know my vis. Situation. I didn't know anything. So this. Everything was, like, completely off the table. Stopped. We moved to LA after six months of, like, ordering the couch and, like, doing a Social Security. I'm like, right, what am I doing every day? Like, I'm literally doing nothing. It's time to do something for myself. So I do like to mention that me and my husband have moved to la. We were set up financially, you know, we were getting by totally fine. We'd bought a house. So I like to kind of throw that in there because it's not as if I just had this 900 to my name. Does that make sense? Like, I had a roof over my head and I had food on the table. So I had this $900 of cash, which is not a lot of money in terms of business at all. And I didn't want to spend any more because I'm like, this is a total risk and gamble. I couldn't use anything that I had done before I changed my logo. I had to set up an LLC in the US all these things. So I couldn't use any of my old things. And Heaven Mayhem was totally started from scratch with this $900. So what I did Was I didn't even set up a company, didn't even set up my llc, didn't have a business plan. I went downtown la, I went on ebay, I went to flea market and I found VIN vintage, like pendants. I went on Amazon and bought the cord. I went on Shopify and bought a subscription for $30, like the 30amonth basic starter pack. And I bought my Canva subscription because to me, downloading my logo as a transparent PNG and using transparent PNGs was super important to me for creating content. And that is literally all I spent my money on in like the first month, I guess, to get it off the ground. And then from there I, I just did whatever I could to get a sale. Sold one necklace, use that $60 to then buy a new camera to then shoot more content. So I was shooting everything myself. I was the model taking selfies or getting my friends to shoot me. And like, just. It was so scrappy. Hand making everything.
- [05:39]
A
Yeah. So for everyone, for context, Heaven Mayhem really started from you hand making. And that's how you were able to start with like a low amount of capital. And so exactly, like, that's, that's like how one of you know, our instructors of one of our programs at Founder plus Greta started hand making tea. Right. So it can be done, but it depends on the product.
- [06:01]
B
Yeah, it totally depends on the product. And I think with something like a supplement or maybe even a tea, it's more difficult because you have all these regulations and you have like higher minimums and stuff. Unless you can really hand make it. But you can't really sell stuff like that you make in your kitchen. But like, for jewelry, I'm. I was creating vintage pendants just like reworked. So I could totally do it by myself, by hand. And I could buy like, If I buy five, I can sell five. I don't have to buy 10,000 to then sell five. You know what I mean? So I could really like grow at like a slow pace. Yet it did go kind of fast.
- [06:35]
A
Yeah. So talk me through this. So you started in 2022. I think it was mid-2022 you launched?
- [06:41]
B
Yeah, June 16, 2022, I launched my first collection of 20 pendants. They were all sourced in L. A and I handmade them all. I also spent a little bit of money on. Instead of, Sorry, not just the Amazon cord on Amazon, it's called Zebra label printer. And the padded mailer, a black padded mailer. That's what I was sending it in. So I'd spent like, you know, that literally is like $100, 80, 30 and it adds up. And so I have my 20 pieces. I made five of them, sold out straight away. I wanted to create this kind of like rush, like, oh my God, they're selling fast as soon as they've launched. I promoted it on the Heaven Mayhem Instagram and I like tagged it on my personal. I had about 45 to 50k followers at the time, which I feel like maybe people listening are like, oh, that's easy for her then, golden ticket. But like, honestly, 45 to 50k followers is nothing. And as well as that, my followers was barely even engaged. They weren't ready to shop. I had a lot of following in Australia and London where I was living, who were not down to buy a product and pay for shipping from the us so it wasn't like a quick, easy, crazy, golden ticket, silver bullet as they say. It was like, that didn't really help me, but I didn't want to attach my name to it straight away because I didn't want it to be this like big kind of influencer, LED brand. I really wanted it to stand on its own two feet. And so if people were like liking a photo on Instagram, I would DM them and say, hey, are you interested? Do you want to buy the necklace? So like I was like, after every sale, I was so going after every single customer.
- [08:14]
A
Yeah, so that's a really good point that you called out doing things that don't scale. Right. So many people would are afraid to just kind of reach out to people on Instagram that like the photo or like the video or like, like, like the product or follow you. But in the early days, that stuff is golden. And the amount of founders, successful founders or successful students in our community that I speak to that do these kinds of grassroots things to get the brand going. Like that's what's required. It doesn't just like build boom overnight, you know what I mean?
- [08:47]
B
Yeah. And like I can get into pretty much everything. Like even now we still do everything such like, grassroots, like pull it together. Like we just did a huge pop up in London. That was not grassroots. It cost us a lot of money.
- [09:02]
A
How much can you share?
- [09:05]
B
It cost us like US$85,000 to produce this pop up, this pop up building. However, this is really worth it for me because a, I get to keep it. It's ours. We, we own it. Another good thing about this is it's an asset on my balance sheet. So like, that's kind of a good thing for my books. It was a photo booth in the store in Selfridges, the biggest retail store in central London. It has a ton of foot traffic. The EMV is crazy. Like, sorry, I don't like to use acronyms because when I was listening to these podcasts I would be like, what the fuck is emv? So EMV is earned media value. And the earned media value we got from this pop up was amazing. And then at the end of the day I get to keep it. And Selfridges now buys the stock to fill the pop up. And we've made that money back because we're selling so well, so that was worth it. However, we also did a ton of marketing alongside that. So I wanted to do like a really big social campaign with all these little moments throughout London. So we printed stickers that was like 200. That's kind of expensive, but to me that's expensive to someone else with a business. They're like, that's cheap. We printed a poster for like a hundred dollars. I printed a massive sticker for like probably $80. I went and tried to get a black cab in London, like a. I tried to book it online to rent it out. It was 5k for the week. So instead I just held a black cab. I gave him £100 cash and I said, can I put this sticker on? And we take content for an hour. Done. Ticked that one off the list. Instead of getting a paste up company to put it over every photo booth in London, we just put double sided sticky tape and stuck it up and took our pictures. And honestly, we're still there three days later. So like that's the kind of grassroots small things are. Like on Instagram it's like, oh my God, they got a custom taxi, they took over this thing. But like, actually no, I just spent $300 and like made it look like I spent probably 50 grand.
- [10:53]
A
Yeah, I love it. That's really clever. So let's go back to the early days. So initial drop sold out pretty quickly, right? Handmade one off necklaces. How'd you manage inventory in the early days? Like, what happened next? Like, so you kind of like, all right, I'm on to something at this stage because it was kind of like somewhat of an Etsy, kind of like put some things, you know, like it wasn't like a brand or like we've got bespoke, like, you know, like proven product at scale. Like talk me through it.
- [11:24]
B
So we did drop one. I think there was 20 pieces. I made five, sold out, dropped two, roughly 23 weeks later dropped three, maybe 15 and then by drop four, I'd found this place in downtown LA that had, it was like a trims vintage dead stock. And I found this one pendant which I took home and it was called, I, I named it online the Black Maxi. And I, I think they had like 40 of them or something or like 30. So I bought all of them and I had stock. This was my first item, that stock. So like it was doing kind of well because I sold maybe three of them on launch. Jane said usually I can just sell one because they're all one offs. So that was doing quite well. I ended up selling out of that after a few weeks and then I was on holiday and I called them and I said, do you have any more? And they were like, yeah, we've got 200 or something. And that's it, like that's the last of it. Do you want it? I said yes, please. I'm away. I'm going to Uber package it or like UPS it to the house or something. And when I, by the time I got home they were all wrong and it was all like a mini one. But that then transitioned to become my best selling product. I called it now the Black Mini because I, this is something else. As me, as like a founder, I would never waste money. Like if I make a mistake like that or something goes wrong, I'm like, all right, let's just do it anyway. Or like let's just pivot or let's just try and make it work. So I tried to make it work. It ended up becoming the best seller and then from there that totally changed the business because I had like 200 or more of them to sell. So then I had all of this capital from those sales that did really well to then put back into the business and then move it to China to then create my own products. Because I, the number one most important rule in business and like I pick up these tiny things from my father in law is like no stock, no sales. Like how am I actually going to sell anything if I don't have any stock? So that was like really what grew the business to be able to move to factories.
- [13:14]
A
Yeah. Okay, so you placed your first like official quote unquote order three months later, Right?
- [13:22]
B
I placed my first official po. I launched the business in June. I didn't get my first PO until January. I must have placed it in October, November and maybe I got it in February.
- [13:35]
A
Yeah. Okay. And so talk me through revenue, right? Like because it's accessories, not high aov. Like, was it enough to make a living? Like, talk me through that. That.
- [13:51]
B
So the revenue. So the early days. Okay, so let's go back to that Black Mini product that I had 200 of. This is like a massive lesson in learning, is that firstly, you've got to look at what sells well and then make variations. So the Black Maxi, the Black Mini was just a mini version of that. And so it was like a variation of already a bestseller. So that was doing really well. I then, like, took that learning and made the Black Mini with just five different colored chords. Like, I did yellow, I did pink, I did orange. So I had different colors, but it's like the same product. So these sales were really picking up. And I used. I started using Facebook ads. So I taught myself how to do Facebook ads. And I feel like there's so many resources out there. Like, anyone listening who has a brand, don't let anyone tell you can't do it. It's honestly so easy. Taught myself that. But at the time, the landscape was a little bit different and I was just like, doing so well, creating amazing content for it that my cost per acquisition was at like $2. And it went up to like $3, 80. And I remember saying to my husband, like, oh, my God, I'm so upset. It's gone up to $3, 80. And he's like, you're fine. You're literally fine. And like, now that would be actually laughable. Like, it is laughable. So then from there, I had kind of got this, like, customer base. I started teaching myself. I started teaching. Yeah, myself, Klaviyo, to like, email people after and get that. We were getting a few customers looking from ads who weren't converting. So I on Klaviyo and like, set it up, set up flows and stuff. So while my AOV was low, like $60, it was starting to grow and I didn't have any overheads. Like, I was doing absolutely everything myself. So then from that revenue, I was able to put it. That's how I could afford the factories. And so then that six months, 2022, that six months, I made around like 50 ish thousand dollars in that first six months. And then the year later was 2.5 million.
- [15:44]
A
Yep. Wow. Okay, Great growth. Okay, so before we jump into the growth, I want to talk about your branding, because you've done like all this stuff. Early days, your branding was done using tools like Canva. So talk to me about that because a lot of people would think I've got to work with a branding agency. I've got to drop all this money, all this kind of stuff. Like, so how did you approach building your brand without a large budget budget, but you have, like, a decent brand identity, like, great aesthetics still without a large budget, like, what advice would you give to founders there?
- [16:20]
B
So I hate to say it, but I think that's my strength. And so if I was running a business with, like, huge overheads and stuff from the beginning, maybe I would have drowned, but I could easily cope with all these operational things because they were at such a small scale and I was learning as I went. Creatives and aesthetics, however, is like my bread and butter. Like, I can do it with my eyes closed. I had such a strong vision. And so I think you just have to have. Have a really strong vision of what you want. If that's not, maybe you're like bread and butter and you're not creatively inclined, maybe you have to work with an agency. Because I think the aesthetics is like, everything. And even now, I will care more about the vibe and the aesthetic of the brand than how much money we make. Like, I. I make decisions all the time because I prefer how it looks, even though I know it would make more money doing it that way. But it's just not on brand for us. So I think I just had such a, like, a distinct vision. And I would just do tiny things, like order a VHS vintage camera from eBay for $20, order a digital camera from Depop for $30, take content on that. Like, I'd have to wind up this tape to get it onto my laptop to then edit it, teach myself imovie, Just have these, like, tiny, cool esthetics that I thought really changed the brand. I would write, like, Heaven or something or XOXO on a piece of paper in pencil because I liked that effect, and take a picture, send it to my laptop, remove the background on Canva, which is why I told you I needed the transparent background remover thing. I would then overlay it onto a video, say, shop now, like, every single thing I was hand drawing, uploading myself, even today, like, on the back of all our watches is all hand drawn, like engravings from me. So I think for me, I'm lucky because the bread, because my esthetic is my bread and butter. So I could really, like, hone in on that and make this branding. And that's kind of what cut through and set us apart, I think.
- [18:08]
A
Yeah. And I think one thing I will say is for some people, it's not your strength. Right? Like, you know, design might not Be your strength. But you can still in this market with tools like I like. So crazy what you can do with photography. So crazy what you can do with image creation. So crazy what you can do with ugc. Like, you can do some crazy cost affordable stuff. I would argue it's easier than ever now compared to two, three years ago when you started to do it on a budget. So even though if you don't have, you know, your esthetic eye and your design skills and just like really good at that stuff, you can still get it done in a cost affordable way. That's just what I kind of want to demystify for people.
- [18:55]
B
And honestly, I think all founders have that kind of like vision of how they want it to look. Otherwise they wouldn't want this business, I guess. And honestly, take a Sunday off and spend the day on Canva and YouTube and you will know Canva back to front. Like it's so user friendly. We use it every single day. Everyone on my team uses it. That's our most used website app anything.
- [19:16]
A
Yeah, yeah, Love it. So talk me through this motto of yours and I think we can start to see a bit of a theme. Done is better than perfect. It's been central to Heaven Mayhem's rapid growth iteration. Can you give us an example of how you've used that kind of motto? Done is better than perfect with product or you know, launching quickly and just like getting feedback? Because you have, you've, you've grown the business really fast. You've got a lot of different products. Like you, you've got, you're in many different accessory categories. Not just necklaces, like many different categories. Can you talk us through that?
- [19:57]
B
Yes. I didn't make it up, but it is like something I live by and it has been why we have grown. Like we have grown this business really fast. We have a ton of different products. We're in a ton of different retailers, we do a ton of different events. We show up all the time, everywhere, because we're trying to be everywhere all at once and be the best and biggest accessories brand. So you have to do it all at once, I guess, unless you want to grow slowly. So like done is better than perfect. If you spend something so long making. This is the best example. These Canva graphics that I used to do in these videos, I could have, have to save up for months to be able to afford a video editor to then edit it for me. Now just get it out there. It's like kind of ugly when I look back at these videos. But like they're fine if you don't look back and kind of hate what it was. Like you started too late. That's the saying, right? Like I just get it done, get it out there and then you have next time to improve. So like every event, every single time we do anything now, whether it's a launch, an event or like a big photo shoot, everyone is required to do a recap and like an SOP and keep this SOP running. So we're writing down our learnings and like, okay, it wasn't perfect this time, how to get it closer to perfect next time. So we're always learning and innovating. Innovating. I think the point is done is better than perfect. But like, don't leave it at done. Like you still innovate and change it all the time.
- [21:16]
A
Yeah, 100%. I think like the amount of times like in my journey I've kind of just shipped it, got it out there and then, you know, it's, it just works itself out. But I think so often you, in the early days especially, you care what other people think so much or you have to get. But yeah, we all feel it, but you have to push through it and just like not care and just get it out. And even if it's embarrassing and then you forget about it and you think everyone's going to remember it, no one remembers, no one cares. But that's an inner battle that you have to face, especially in the early days. So it's something that you obviously smash through pretty easily. Is that something that has always come natural to you of just like not caring and just moving forward or like, where does that come from? Because that's been critical.
- [22:07]
B
That's been really critical. I think, yeah, it does come quite naturally. But I also think having Heaven Mayhem is honestly like my calling. I feel so aligned and I feel like a lot of things kind of fall into place properly and I make all of the right decisions because I'm meant to be doing this in like some weird witchy woo woo way. So I think when previously in life, like I did feel kind of shy or worried what people think or a bit nervous. Whereas like with this I'm like, no, this is what we're doing. I know, it's fine, let's do it. Press go. So I'm down to do it. But I think this is like the biggest lesson ever. I was going through my camera roll yesterday, trying to figure out some stuff I need to post and I was looking at some pictures and I'm like, oh, I should. I should post these. They haven't been posted. I went through my Instagram. I realized I have posted them. I've accidentally posted this picture twice already and I personally don't even remember. So, like, everyone's so worried about everyone hanging on to every word and, like, remembering everything and judging them. Like, if you yourself can't even really remember, like, I don't think anyone else cares.
- [23:09]
A
Yeah, Yeah, I. I agree. 100. So I gotta ask you, you got a great story around Hailey Bieber. Tell us about that. Give us the juice.
- [23:22]
B
So Haley, I feel like, has changed so many brands out there. Like, she's just the most iconic it girl celebrity ever, and I think has the most insane loyal following, and she looks incredible all the time. So it was such an honor that she's worn Heaven Mayhem. Such an honor. I. Her friend actually purchased it, and then I was at a coffee shop and I saw them both there, and I just had this, like, newfound confidence and I went up and said hi to her friend to introduce myself and, like, offer her some gifting because it was really kind of her to purchase. And then Haley was there and ended up saying, like, oh, I love it too. And then her stylist requested some stuff and then she wore it. So I think it was like, one of those amazing moments because it only really happened that I lived in la, but I also feel like the brand is, like, perfect for her. She's worn a lot of brands at similar price points, and she's, like, such a supporter of small businesses. So I kind of feel like one way or another, she probably would have won Heaven Mayhem. And she's worn it a couple of times since. But, yeah, it was amazing.
- [24:21]
A
So a couple things I'd like to unpack there. First and foremost, what did it do for sales?
- [24:27]
B
So the first time she wore it, she. She just wore it on Instagram and it wasn't a very clear photo. We reposted her, but it didn't really do much for sales. People were like, oh, my God, that's amazing. And I think it does a lot for brand credibility and really makes people think, like, oh, okay, that's like, quote, celebrity approved. And then the second time she wore it, she posted a photo in the earrings, and it was like, waist up, so it was very. And she was wearing a white T shirt, so it was very, like, earring focused. And we sold out of those in, like, two or three days, but we only had 100 units in stock. Like, the business was not even a year old, so that's how many units I was buying. So it. It does sound amazing to say, like, oh, my God, it's sold out. But at the same time, like, that was only 100 units. So, you know, so good. And then from there, it just. It's a bit. It's definitely not like a silver bullet, you know, it doesn't sell out every time she wears it, but I think every time it kind of like, has this ripple effect. Like, I'll see tick tocks being like, oh, Haley Bieber approved from, like, Haley hasn't even bought those earrings or worn those earrings, but you now somehow associate. So I don't know how it works, but we feel blessed that she's worn our brand and, like, that's all we can say, really.
- [25:50]
A
Yeah, no, it's amazing. And I think it was really clever how you went up to a friend, right? I think that's really clever.
- [25:56]
B
I mean, it wasn't a strategy. I was, like, scared shitless. Like, I was so nervous, shaking. It definitely had no strategy behind it. But it does sound good when I, like, say it now I'm like, oh, I guess that is kind of good. I wasn't, like, a fan girl and begging and pleading for her to wear it, but there was, like, no strategy. And I was so nervous. And I think, yeah, as I said, like, I repeat the story and it probably sounds like I'm such a cool girl, but I'm like, no, no, no. I was literally shaking. I probably couldn't get my words out.
- [26:22]
A
Yeah, no, I respect. I respect your honesty. So how did you know her friend bought, like, obviously a friend had a name that you like.
- [26:31]
B
Yeah, yeah. Her friends a singer. And I clearly remember I was in my garden. Shopify notifications on of course. And it just, like, pinged and it was like a $600 order, which was insane for me because my AOV is like, my. Sorry. My average price point is, like, $85. So to get a $600 order is, like, oh, my God, Mind blowing. And she bought, like, five pairs, six pairs, seven pairs. So. And then, so obviously I click to see who it is. And the business is so small. Like, we're getting 10 orders a day. I'm looking at every single person who orders. It's not as if I'm having hundreds of orders. And I'm so busy. I'm like, that's all I do. I'm. That works here. I also fill every order myself. So if I don't see it on the Shopify, I'm seeing it when I'm printing out the label. So that's how I caught it.
- [27:17]
A
Yeah, it's. It's a really cool feeling actually you bringing me back because I used to have an E Commerce brand sold it and it was a couple of things that come up for me that I wanted to call out that you made me nostalgic. So the first one is I remember when Camila Mendez purchased one of our products and we kind of like had to kind of slew through, but worked out it was her, which was really cool. Never tagged the product but saw she had it in the background of one of her images. And yeah, it was really cool. When it's just like, oh, this is like so cool. And not a big brand, not big Instagram following similar, like maybe no, 50, 60, 70,000, like not massive and like people to find the products. I think that's an amazing feeling to know that you're getting that cut through that influence. But then also I remember when like we were getting into the influencer stuff and you know, sending product and then we had one post blow up and one, it was the relationship that that person had with their followers. But also it was the photo that it was very clear what the product was, the problem the product solves because a time marked water bottle and the photo was up close. And then ever since then we started to brief people to really show the product up close. Like, and that was like, you may remember. I was like, yeah, not enough sometimes to just send product like the image and showing that value proposition makes a big difference.
- [28:47]
B
Oh, huge difference. And something I've personally noticed is when celebrities use makeup that they sell out of that makeup style because they're applying it and really like showing how it works with obviously if they're just wearing the lipstick, no one knows where it's from. So obviously that makes sense. But like with a, with a black T shirt you can get some. Half of the people want the exact one that celebrity is wearing. But the other half are like, oh, I'm down to like get the look for less or like, you know, do something similar. But I feel like if you're actually showing how the product works and like it very up close, it just totally changes it and converts.
- [29:23]
A
Yeah, I agree. On that note, let's talk about like the kind of content because you're a big fan of lo fi content. Can you talk us through that? What you mean by that?
- [29:34]
B
For everyone listening think it's just kind of chill vibes. It's like very not highly edited, not highly produced iPhone, very real, almost like an influencer or your best friend posted it, but, like, in a cool aesthetic way. But I think it's just very attainable. Like, if you get the right angle and the light, you can take this photo too. You don't need a $30,000 camera and videographer and all this stuff. So we just try and keep it, like, real and like real people, real influences, real community. Posting a lot of reposts. And just like, we've also found a lot of people, these micro influencers in our community kind of like to recreate our images. Not. Not like on purpose, but it's like a style that they like to do. So everything's very achievable and, like, ready to be recreated.
- [30:19]
A
Yeah. And I think more than ever with Tick Tock, that professional feel is you can get away without it.
- [30:28]
B
Oh, yeah. And it will cost you so much less, but it will resonate so much more. Like, if you're. That's how my Facebook ads did so well at the start, I personally believe is because I was creating such cool content with these, like, VHS cameras and stuff that would personally stop my scroll. And I know right now if I'm scrolling and I see a really highly produced ad, it just screamed ad straight away. So you just keep going. Whereas if something kind of like stops you and you're like, oh, that's a sick image, then you stay on it a bit longer. You're like, oh, what is that? What is this? You know? So that's kind of how we've been able to cut through.
- [31:01]
A
So let's talk about categories. Right? So as I said before, you've gone well beyond, like, many different categories, beyond just earrings. You're doing watches, book boxes, laptop cases. So you're building, like, this accessories empire. So talk me through kind of your process of identifying new product opportunities. How do you make sure it's something that people want and it's still core to, you know, Heaven Mayhem's brand? Core identity.
- [31:34]
B
Yeah. So we're trying to be that, like, go to place for accessories. And so I kind of thought, you know, how can we get the brand out there more? We had earrings. I wanted to do a watch. I was really obsessed with watches. They're just, like, such a great thing to wear. It's a timepiece. They're, you know, they have this, like, special meaning. A lot of people get them for gifts or special occasions. It's something you wear every day. So I'm like, we definitely need that in our assortment. We want someone to really think about this purchase. And Wear our brand every single day. Same as eyewear. I really wanted eyewear. I wear it every day. It's like a natural part of the accessories. The book boxes and the laptop cases were not, like, they're not a typical accessory. I've never seen another accessories brand or many. Never really seen these products ever. So the thought behind that is that I carry my laptop everywhere. I literally don't leave the house without it. So many people are the same, and our brand is not really on anything. Like, yes, it's on my watch right now, but it's so tiny, you'd have to be right next to me to see the logo. But my vision was that your laptop is kind of an accessory, too. And a lot of people are working from, like, a coffee shop, their office, a Soho house. They're traveling on an airplane. I'm like, this is going to get our logo out in so many new places that they might have seen the brand once or twice, but this will remind them again that they'll see our brand. So it was kind of like a. Another accessory, but a great way for brand awareness with the laptop cases. And they blew it out of the water like we thought they'd. I thought they'd do well. They did pretty well on launch day. But something I've noticed is you can't really be swayed by, like, the launch day or launch month stats. They have just grown and grown and grown and grown and grown since from when we launched them. That one of our best sellers. And then just like, some insight into the business. Something we're working on now is a lot of people love the laptop cases, and there's such an array of different people, which is amazing because we're bringing that customer in, but we're finding that they're not often buying other pieces of accessories. So now it's just like an interesting thing with the data that we now have to try and figure out how we can get that customer to go in and buy something else in accessories and know that we offer other things. Things. So it's definitely like a quote, good problem to have because they're still getting new customers. But it's just like, I guess an interesting tip that I wanted to throw out there for people listening who are thinking about products. Like, you kind of have to think, does it make sense with the assortment? And, like, will they buy other things? And do they just know your brand for laptop cases? And, like, how is it benefiting you? And then the book boxes as well? I mean, that kind of makes sense. It's this place to store your jewelry, but it looks like a book. And I think at Heaven Mayhem, it's like, I want to create really, really good quality statement pieces, staple wardrobes, that wardrobe staples that you wear again and again. Or I want to create, like, really sick, innovative products. Like the book boxes I had never, ever seen before. I just don't even know how I came up with it. But people are blown away when they think it's a coffee table book and it's got jewelry storage inside. So I think we want to kind of cut through and, like, again, that did so well on TikTok and Pinterest because people like, wow, I've never seen this.
- [34:39]
A
Yeah. So it's interesting, right? Like. Like, talk me through, like, literally, like, the book box. Like, let's go. I'd love to go a bit deeper on that. Like, you've never seen it before. You got to go to China to produce it. Like, talk me through that.
- [34:55]
B
So we were doing packaging for our earrings and stuff with boxes, obviously. And so I had this idea, and I knew it was possible. Like, of course it's possible. I've seen a book before. Like, we would just have no pages. Of course this is possible. So I asked my packaging supplier if they could do it. They actually said they couldn't do it. But from there I realized, like, this isn't hard. So then I just started searching for packaging suppliers. One way that I found suppliers is through trade shows. So I will go on some trade show websites. I'll look at exhibitors on the exhibitor list, and then I'll go down and Google all of these people. It's like pretty much like a encyclopedia of manufacturers. And you're gonna spend hours because, like, half the time they'll be for, like, leather. And I wanted paper packaging. But you do find some really good suppliers, and I like to do it that way rather than like an AliExpress route, because you don't really know about those factories. But I feel like the ones that go to the trade shows and stuff, they have enough business to be able to afford to get to the trade show. They have good relationships in that country. So I'm like, I feel like they're more trustworthy. So that's kind of how I get my foot in the door. And then once I have, like, a short list of 10, you'll see maybe like, only 30 reply. And then from there, you only want to work with 30%. So you're left with just one person.
- [36:19]
A
Yeah, I see. And then, like, how do you design It. Exactly.
- [36:23]
B
So the design was super easy. I, like, just measured a book. I just measured a coffee table book. I have a little, like, a mini measuring tape. I actually take it with me everywhere I go. Not, like every day, but if I'm leaving town, I have this mini measuring tape with me because I always find things that I like, and I want to describe it or, like, take a picture, but I need to know how big it is, you know? So I have this mini measuring tape with me at all times. It, like, fits on a key ring. And I just measured the book, and I'm like, okay, it's going to be these dimensions, and then we want inside to look like a jewelry box, which is pretty easy. So, like, let's add a photo of that to the tech pack. And then it was just, like, the outside design that we had to work on, like, the concepts and stuff like that. And by this time, I had more money, so I kind of came up with my concepts. But I got a graphic designer to mock it up. I could have done it on Canva, although it probably would have had to be sampled, like, two or three rounds. But the sample came back perfect first round, which is another tip as well, because it's like. Like, I. I've spent money on my designer, but I've now saved, like, let's say it's eight weeks or 12 weeks for a sample. So I've saved myself three to six months of time and two more rounds of paying for sample fees by spending money on the designer to mock up my files instead of me.
- [37:38]
A
Yeah. Yeah. So I think when it comes to. As your business grows, you can do certain things yourself, but you're juggling so many balls, and you've got to allocate time and capital correctly. So I'd like to talk about that, because you have a really entrepreneurial spirit, and, you know, you're a designer and a creator at heart, and it's fun to create things. How have you been able to, as the business has grown, work out where to best spend your time versus doing all these things your versus letting go, and all these kind of things that happen as your business grows?
- [38:24]
B
That's, like, the biggest challenge ever. I think I was first hiring to take things off my plate, make my life easier. Like, I hired an EA first, so I'd be like, do this, do that, do this, book this, do that. And then I can do, you know, pass more admin so I can do more things. And then as things grow, it's just like, you need someone to take over this entire wholesale role or operations role or whatever. But I read this book and I don't really read a lot of books. It's called buy back your time. And that really, that, that really helped me because I realized, okay, I need to hire to get, have more time to work on the things I'm good at instead of like the day to day. So that's kind of how I hire and that's kind of how I hired. And now I'm hiring experts or specialists, I guess who have way more experience than me, who I don't want to tell them what to do every day and pass them off things to get rid of. I want them to be showing me new things if that makes sense. Because now we're at this point where it's like I can no longer teach someone exactly how I want things done on Shopify. I want someone who's come in, who's worked in e Commerce for 15 years, who can teach me or do it. So that's kind of how I'm hiring now. But yeah, it's a slow process. I hire super slow. We always do test projects. We do so many rounds of interviews. I think there's one thing that's like, that person might be like perfect, perfect, perfect on paper, perfect for the job, but they're not perfect for us because it's definitely like a marriage hiring someone in a business this small and I think being founder led as well, it's like you, it's not that chill. Like it's full on, it's a full on environment. There's always something happening. We're growing really fast. Just, it's just like everyone's got to pitch in and do something so it would, it's really hard to find the right fit.
- [40:14]
A
Yep, yep, I agree. And when it comes to hiring, do you mainly hire just from your personal brand and post to the company like, or do you do job ads?
- [40:25]
B
We've done a few ads on LinkedIn which, yeah, they've been kind of successful. And then we'll, we'll always post it. I've used a recruiting agency once or twice and then sometimes word of mouth is the best. I will text like 10 friends and say, hey, we're looking for someone in ops. Would you have two minutes to send this to a couple of people? And then like they'll send it out and they'll send it out and that's kind of how it's happened. And some of my like best hires have come directly to us that they've seen, for example, They've seen a job posting or they've seen us post it, but instead of applying the proper way that we've asked, they've like come through the back door. They found someone who somehow knows me, that somehow knows to then land right in my inbox with an intro. And then that's usually like who we hire because I'm like, you know, they do all this effort and they're really keen for the job and it ends up working out that way. It has done like several times.
- [41:21]
A
Yeah, I, I really resonate with that because earlier this year I started like, obviously, you know, I've been putting out content a long time through founder, but I've never done it through Nathan and through Nathan's lens and, and you know, building a personal brand per se or doing founder led content. And it just came to the point this year, starting this year, I was like, I just got to do it. Like, it's just, it's just, I just got to do it. And I've seen the true power of just finding talented people through just doing a story post. Like it is crazy. Like just a very. You don't even have to need like a job. Like obviously you need a job ad and all that kind of stuff. You can send people, but even just doing a caption story, hey, looking for this person, this role, like DM me if you're interested. It is crazy. Like just the incredible people like that come through. It's so powerful.
- [42:10]
B
Yeah, I actually have done like we'll be sitting around the table at my house. We just got an office a couple of months ago, but we were at my house and I'm like, okay, we need someone who can do AI. We need like I want a balloon in the sky and I want the balloon to like drop earrings and say Black Friday. I'm like, oh, how the are we gonna do that? So I just pull on my phone right on TikTok. Okay. I have this vision, I'm talking to the camera and I want to do this. And then that's how we found our graphic designer. She just commented on my TikTok and then we found her.
- [42:40]
A
That is something that I've noticed this year and I wish I hadn't been doing it 10 years ago was just like putting out content. It is so power building, so powerful. Just putting out content, sharing stories, building a relationship with your core community. Even if it's not, you don't need like a lot of followers either. Like, it's just so powerful to grow your brand like that is that is definitely like the new modern era of building an E commerce brand. Founder led content building in public like you, you can't, like you can do it.
- [43:14]
B
Keeping up with your story. And they're watching, they're watching your Instagram stories because they're interested. And then by the time you're like, hey, I'm looking for this, they're like, well, I'm kind of invested. I've been watching for the past year like you know, so it's like the best way to hire.
- [43:27]
A
Yeah, I agree. Okay, so talk me through your routine. So you get up at 5am and you work weekends. What are your non negotiable productivity hacks? And you know, it sounds like you have like a pretty rigorous routine.
- [43:49]
B
I go to the gym, I love saunaing. I'll probably have a sauna tonight. I love eating healthy. I love going on walks with my husband and my dog and I love doing my skincare routine. That's about it. I don't really have a specific like day to day routine, things I have to tick off. I have all of these things that I love doing for me that I sprinkle in, but it just changes all the time. Like tomorrow for example, I'm not doing a workout in the morning, so I'm gonna go for a walk, my favorite activity and get a match on my favorite activity. But then I'm going to be in the office by like 7:45. So but then another day I might have to shoot loads of content. So I'll have to do my makeup and get my makeup done. So then I'll have to go later and then, you know, it changes every day. So I don't lock myself into like this specific routine. But I have all these things that I like to do mixed within so I can like recharge my batteries and I travel all the time. So I feel like that's why I kind of work all the time. Because my life's also really amazing and I love what I do. Like my office is so fun. We have so much fun every day. There's like, it's like, what's not to love? Of course I want to work. When I get home, it's like I love it.
- [44:57]
A
Yeah. And look, I think that's why, you know, I think sometimes for people, you start an online business or a business for different reasons. Everyone starts for different reasons. But fundamentally life is too short to not do work you don't enjoy. Right. And whether, whether it's you're working at a company for somebody else or you're running your own business. Like, it's all about, like, we spend most of our lives working. You want to do work that you enjoy with really cool people that you like to work with. Like, that. That's. That's what it's all about. And if you can work out those two things, then you're like, you're well on your way to living a great life. And I think that's. That's what it's all about.
- [45:39]
B
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I probably do, like, two things per day that I don't like and I don't want to do, but they're adding to the overall vision of what I absolutely love. So, like, it's all good. And yeah, I love my life. Like, it's so fun. I literally love working at this company and doing all of these things. It's so fun. So I feel like as long as you kind of have that feeling, you're good.
- [46:03]
A
Yeah, agree. All right, so there's something you're really passionate about, which we haven't talked about yet. And you said not enough people talk about this and that's building a community. Talk to me why this is something that you think, you know, having this community first approach, not enough people are talking about or doing and why it's so important to you and something you're really passionate about when it comes to building businesses in general.
- [46:28]
B
Yeah, I think, I think there's like so much emphasis with these e comm businesses and like, you see it all the time. Even probably with mine, like 2 million to 10 million. Like, grow, grow, grow, conversion rate, ARV, all these things. And it's like, yeah, but actually the only way to grow is for someone to buy your product. Like, if you want to grow, you have to get more sales. So to get more sales, you need more people to buy your product. But who is that person? Is like, why did they buy it? Are they buying it for a wedding? Like, this is so interesting to me and I feel like, you know, we're always just looking at numbers on the screen and that's what everyone talks about. But, like, who is the actual, actual person buying it? So we really care about the community and I really want to like, like learn more about them, lean in, thank them for their purchase, like, help them style it. And so we do a ton of stuff with the community activations and events and all of this stuff to just kind of like create this heavy mayhem world. I also feel like maybe in a post Covid world, we stay home a lot. We're like, don't do as many things irl. And I really want to kind of do that and like bring people offline and get them together.
- [47:31]
A
Yeah. And what recommendation would you have for someone starting a brand to kind of of start with community building early days? Like, what, what could that look like amongst the all the other things you got going on once you launch?
- [47:45]
B
Yeah, I think so. Let's say I was launching a brand tomorrow and you know, I had 10 followers on Instagram. I would be personally or from the brand DMing all of them and saying like, hey, thanks for the follow. This is what we do, this is what we sell. If they ordered, I would follow up with an email. And, and we do this now at a much bigger scale. It will be like a follow up thank you from me or a follow up survey to connect with them more. But even at a lower scale, like you can personally email and be like, hey, I've seen it arrive two weeks ago. Would love to hear your thoughts. I'm the founder. What can we do better? I think people always love to like, give you advice if you give them the floor to do so. So if you're like, did you like it? They have to say yes. If you say, what can I do better? They feel like they're helping you by telling you how you can improve. So like, that's an open line of communication. They feel like they've helped. They feel like they have like a little piece of the brand now that they might have like a bit of a difference. And then you've got all this new information. You've, you've made a friend. Like, literally all these customers, I'd say I'm friends with, we like dm and that's how you build the community. And I think as long as you are treating these people and customers like a person and a customer rather than a number, another number and another sale. Like, like, I'll have girls DM me for months, can't decide which one to buy. And like, at the end of the day they're deciding whether they buy a pair of $180 sunglasses. And I think most people are like, all right, let's get a move on. Like, doesn't matter. But like, to me, I'm like, no, no, let's style it right. Let's get it for back to school. Let's get it before your Europe trip. Like, I really care about that and I think that's how the community is. Kind of like, all right, no, we want to buy in and we want to like, kind of join this community, not just buy this brand.
- [49:24]
A
Yeah. And it looks, it's about building relationships at scale. Like that's how. That's what business is, building relationships at scale in the most simplest form. So couple last questions and we got a wrap. I can't believe we've been. We've gone for a while, so. All right, this is awesome. So your current revenue is estimated at 9.5 million with a goal for continued growth. What's the long term vision for Heaven Mayhem, scale and reach?
- [49:53]
B
So our revenue last year was actually 10 million. So we like kind of surpassed our goal. What is our goal for scale and reach? I don't know. We have no investment. We. Yeah, we have no investment. And every investor meeting I'll like kind of take in a casual way. So all of these questions I feel like I'd be so much more equipped to answer if I, you know, had raised a ton of money and I'd have this elevator pitch. I don't know what our goal is. I want to reach a ton of people. I want to become the go to brand for accessories. I know that I don't want retail stores. Maybe we'll do some pop ups. That's all I know so far. But I really want to continue growing and I just want to have a brand. Like I want Heaven Mayhem to continue to be something that inspires other people and makes me and everyone who works there proud. I think we don't want to be a sellout brand. We want to continue our brand identity and be really proud of the brand and the product that we're creating. So that's the path we're on. Like I said, I'd probably have a better elevator pitch if I'd raise a ton of money. But that's the path we're on.
- [50:56]
A
No, look, I respect that. Right. You're just building. It's still early days. It's crazy how fast your brand has grown in the short amount of time. Like it's only been three years. Like, it's like, oh my God. Like I've been building founder for like close to 13 years now. Like it. And it still feels like it's. I can't imagine even three years. So it is so impressive what you've built. As I said, Pierre, we have to work towards wrapping up. But a couple asked questions for mid to. For so for early stage to mid stage founders that are listening. What is the single most important kind of takeaway, tangible piece of advice you would give to overcome kind of building their business today, I think.
- [51:44]
B
And like I said, I didn't make this up, but I think done is better than perfect. Like, every single person I speak to wants advice to how to get started or how to how to get to the next step, but they're stuck on, like, what they're posting on Instagram and spending two hours. Done is better than perfect. Get it done. Like, just keep things moving, and that's literally how you can get to the next step. Like, keep it moving, keep it rolling. Next thing. And I feel like just keep me in your head saying done is better than perfect and that just post the picture, just release the product and just. Just get it out there.
- [52:15]
A
Well, we have to wrap there, but, Pia, thank you so much for your time. This was a fantastic lesson on just building a business and just rolling with it and building incredible brands. So congratulations on all your success and thank you so much for giving back to our community.
- [52:32]
B
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm such a fan, so I really appreciate it.
- [52:35]
A
Hey, founder fam. Thank you so much for tuning in today and if you enjoyed this this episode, please take the time to leave us a review and let us know what you think. This podcast is 100% free. We work so hard to go out and find the most successful entrepreneurs and founders in the world. Your feedback helps us grow, improve, and even bring on more incredible guests and insights. So if you have a second, please take a moment, leave us a review. It really makes a difference. Thanks again for listening and I'll catch you on the next show.