654: The Hoodie That SAVED Their Business ($5M in 2 Years) | Boys Lie

Summary

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The Foundr Podcast with Nathan Chan

Episode 654: The Hoodie That SAVED Their Business ($5M in 2 Years) | Boys Lie

Date: April 23, 2026
Guests: Tori Robinson and Leah O'Malley, Co-Founders of Boys Lie
Host: Nathan Chan

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Episode Overview

This episode features an honest, behind-the-scenes look at how Tori Robinson and Leah O’Malley pivoted their struggling cosmetics startup, Boys Lie, into a multimillion-dollar apparel phenomenon. From the game-changing moment when Gigi Hadid was spotted in their sweatsuit to surviving a betrayal from an employee, Tori and Leah share battle-tested lessons on influencer marketing, cash flow, wholesale strategies, brand-building, and resilience. This is a masterclass for founders feeling stuck or searching for their “big break.”

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Key Topics & Insights

1. From Cosmetics Failure to Apparel Success

[02:14–05:55]

• Boys Lie started as a cosmetics brand, launching with over 16 SKUs, generating $250K in revenue but leaving them with an equal amount of debt.
• Despite early sales, their two branded hoodies outsold all makeup items.
• The pivotal moment: Gigi Hadid was photographed in their sweatsuit during a high-profile breakup, causing demand to skyrocket and forcing the pivot to apparel.

“It was almost like the clothing just spoke for itself...the Goodbye set was like the epitome of that.”—Tori Robinson [03:57]

“We had so many people just messaging us asking for clothes, which is why we did switch to apparel.”—Leah O'Malley [04:51]

2. The Gigi Hadid Moment & Unsolicited Gifting

[06:00–08:43]

• They sent Boys Lie clothing blindly to Gigi through mutual contacts, not expecting results.
• After two months, Gigi wore the set in public, triggering viral attention.
• Founders now only gift products with recipient pre-approval—no more “blind” celebrity gifting.

“It’s really more so taking the actions to make something happen and just believing in it so wholeheartedly that no matter how many times you get rejected...you surrender to this failure and then it ended up becoming a success.”—Tori Robinson [08:12]

3. Getting Through the Darkest Days

[08:46–12:21]

• The Gigi moment happened days after a heart-to-heart about shutting the business down due to overspending and lack of resources.
• The breakthrough arrived at the moment they felt they had nothing left to lose.

“Any win by any means was like, we won today. We really won big. We won the lottery. Even if it was the smallest, smallest step.”—Tori Robinson [11:01]

4. Influencer & Celebrity Marketing Playbook

[16:38–31:35]

• Key insights on influencer marketing:
  • The product must stand on its own.
  • Don’t chase only big names; look for authentic, repeat engagement.
  • Build relationships with the influencer’s inner circle (stylists, friends, makeup artists).
  • Never pay upfront fees for influencer content anymore; instead, focus on authentic relationships and revenue/profit splits for large collaborations.
  • Founders’ DM approach is always personalized—no “copy-paste” messages.
  • Micro-influencers with authentic audience rapport can drive outsized results.

“If they want to wear the brand, they'll wear the brand, essentially. And that's the point that we had gotten to.”—Tori Robinson [21:53]

“Just because you have a million followers doesn't mean you can sell a million dollars worth of product. We learned the hard way.”—Leah O'Malley [24:18]

• Emotional moments and big TV exposure (ex: Amanda Batula on Summer House, Ariana Maddox on Vanderpump Rules) can cause sudden sellouts, often with zero direct attribution.

5. Wholesale, D2C and the Pre-book Model

[33:21–39:54]

• Boys Lie operates roughly 60% D2C, 40% wholesale.
• Cash flow for wholesale is protected by leveraging stronger D2C revenue and building solid backing relationships with manufacturers.
• Use of third-party factoring companies can de-risk wholesale receivables (e.g., Hilden).
• The “pre-book” wholesale model (learned from their wholesale partner) enables advanced forecasting; retailers commit before production, so inventory risk and cash needs are better managed.
• Real-time sell-through data and retailer feedback inform ongoing D2C assortment decisions.

“With the pre-book model, you get a better understanding of what products are going to be top sellers, what wasn’t popular at all.”—Leah O'Malley [37:54]

“Sometimes you have to trust your gut...we’ve had moments where we took a risk and it became a top seller.”—Leah O'Malley [38:53]

6. Building Brand Authority & Exceptional Retailer Relationships

[39:55–43:50]

• Start small; scale up custom elements as the business grows.
• Transparency is crucial—with both retail partners and customers. Own up to delays, communicate openly about business realities.
• Emotional brand DNA (the story of heartbreak) is at the core of customer connection.

“Everyone in the world, again, has gone through some type of heartbreak...it feels like you’re connecting to something bigger than you.”—Leah O'Malley [41:25]

7. Surviving Employee Embezzlement

[44:00–51:16]

• A trusted, long-term employee stole about $50,000 through company credit cards—not discovered for years.
• The founders detailed a thorough, draining investigation and marginal police support.
• Key operational change: No longer is any single person responsible for reconciliation; three people now cross-verify all accounting and expenses, building robust checks and balances.
• Emphasize trust must be earned, systems over reliance on individuals, and resilience after losses.

“Honestly, the result of that has made Leah and I very jaded when it comes to hiring people and not really trusting them immediately...Trust is earned and unfortunately we got burned.”—Tori Robinson [50:19]

8. Future Vision: House of Brands & Community-Driven Growth

[51:39–54:06]

• Upcoming launches include Girls Lie, a potential baby line (“Babies Lie”), and other categories—criteria and thresholds for new sub-brands remain flexible, depending on opportunity and demand.
• Boys Lie’s podcast and community “stories”—where customers submit heartbreak stories to be read on-air—embody the brand’s ethos and inspire product and campaign ideas.
• Turned down a major buyout offer two years ago; open to the right deal, but focused on growth.

“If you make plans, God laughs. I think that comes each day...”—Tori Robinson [52:14]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Patience means hard work, means just working harder.”—Nathan Chan [08:46]
• “It felt like in that moment we gave up to say, like, you know what, maybe this isn’t for us. And then magically it became for us. But it wasn’t in the industry that we had initially proposed it in.”—Tori Robinson [08:12]
• “Any win by any means was like, we won today. Even if it was the smallest step.”—Tori Robinson [11:01]
• “We laugh now. Obviously, at the time we were very much so not laughing. It is a lot of money. But...we put in our best efforts. Let’s count this as a loss, and we have to move on with our day.”—Tori Robinson [50:45]
• “Our future changes every day...we were offered to be bought out two years ago...for the right price, we’re open to anything.”—Tori Robinson [52:14]

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Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------|------------| | Cosmetics background & pivot to apparel | 02:14–05:55| | Gigi Hadid viral moment & gifting strategy | 06:00–08:43| | Breaking through founder “rock bottom” | 08:46–12:21| | Influencer marketing approaches | 16:38–31:35| | Wholesale business models & cash flow | 33:21–39:54| | Brand-building and retailer relationships | 39:55–43:50| | Employee theft & operational changes | 44:00–51:16| | Future brand vision & community | 51:39–54:06|

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Takeaways for Founders

• Let the product speak: Celebrity or influencer exposure only matters if the product resonates.
• Authenticity trumps scale: Real relationships and vulnerability, not follower count, drive conversion.
• Transparency is an asset: Be open with both retailers and customers, especially in tough times.
• Protect your business: Use checks and balances for finances, don’t let any single individual control key systems.
• Stay open to pivots: The “big break” can come unexpectedly—be willing to shift direction.
• Brand community: Foster real engagement and make customers feel part of the narrative.

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For More

Listen to this episode for detailed tactical advice, founder war stories, and vibrant anecdotes that make startup survival and scale possible—even from the brink of closing shop.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hear the stories, learn the proven methods, and accelerate your growth and future through entrepreneurship. Welcome to the founder podcast with Nathan Chan.

[A]

Welcome, Tori and Leah. You guys launched a cosmetics brand that generated $250,000 in revenue against $250,000 in debt. You raised money from friends and family, but your second year, you pivoted to apparel. What made you realize, like, because most founders, if they do $250,000 in their first year, would be like to keep going with this. Like, what happened?

[B]

Basically, pre Covid we got to a Point in our business with the cosmetics, where we looked at Pat McGrath's business structure as well as Jerry Lorenzo's. Something so special about both of them. Jerry Lorenzo started with one hoodie, for fear of God. It's a very big brand now. And he continued to progress that one skew until it grew into a huge, huge brand. So we really admired that on the apparel side of things and on the makeup side of things. Pat McGrath. I know the business isn't doing that well today, but at the time it seemed like it had boomed. And she had these bomber jackets that she sold with the cosmetics and we were both like, oh, this is amazing. The bomber jacket sold out. So something really interesting about that in general, before I jump into the costs of everything, was that the apparel side of things versus a cosmetic side of things. I'm wearing pink nail polish. Any girl can go to the store to get pink. They don't really need a brand specific item to go get that color for a cosmetic. When we launched, we launched with so many skus, I think it was, it was over 16 SKUs. And then we decided to have a hoodie which ended up growing into a sweatshirt and a sweatpant.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

In the height of her breakup with Tyler Cameron, Gigi Hadid had walked out in a full paparazzi moment, head to toe in Boys Lie. And it was almost like the clothing just spoke for itself. This little set that we had, it literally just kept selling out and kept selling out. And during that time too, after we had produced our cosmetic items and we're holding onto so much inventory for them, we were basically setting the cosmetic items with the clothing items out as gifting for anything that we had left. Because we were like in this stage where we were like, oh my God, we're going to have to close shop anyways. This isn't working. There's no chance that they're. This is going to work. So that pivotal moment changed everything for us in mindset and the businesses shift where again, because of that moment with Gigi and because it was something that was so, I don't want to say controversial because it wasn't essentially controversial, but it was such a built to the

[C]

brand name and like what the brand's ethos is. And it's like about heartbreak and also stepping out and like feeling empowered in what you're wearing. And I think the Boys Lie Goodbye set was like the epitome of that. So I think for us, like, when, when that happened, we were like, holy shit. Because we got, sorry, can we curse Course why we had so many people just messing. Messaging us asking for clothes, which is why we did switch to a pair. What I'd also say in the first year, when we did make the 250,000, I would say majority of those sales were the two hoodies that we had as merch and not the cosmetics. So like Tori said about the inventory to just making sure that we're properly, like, keeping up with the demand, but also not like overproducing. So we're sitting on so much that we can't. That we have no space in our warehouse and also that we're not selling. So just trying to find like the. A good way to figure out how much we can make and also what we know we are going to sell based on previous sales of what we

[B]

had before that moment, though, changed everything for the brand. And that's how we made that much money within the following year is that pivot to clothing because the demand was so high for those items.

[C]

And.

[B]

And we continue to grow it and grow out our skus in clothing slash apparel, whatever.

[A]

Yeah. So you talk about the. You know, when Gigi wore your goodbye sweatsuit. So just before COVID Mm. How did that happen? Talk us through that.

[B]

Okay. So I went to school at Arizona State, which was a big party school, and Arizona is such a great location, or Arizona State in general, because you have Scottsdale around you, you have Vegas around you, you have Palm Springs around you, you have LA around you. So basically on the weekends, you can really go anywhere and meet anyone. I was introduced to Coachella my sophomore year of high school, and I got to meet quite a crew of people that, like, basically adopted me into their LA friend group. There was a lot of skaters, but a lot of these people that were, like, super, super connected. And it wasn't with any intention. Like, the foundation of our friendship wasn't with the intention of networking. Like, I feel like that's how it is a lot today. It was like, I genuinely befriended these people. And so when we were at this stage of like, oh, my God, who do we send to? What do we do? I asked for their help. And I said, hey, like, you don't need to vouch for us by any means. I don't want you to tell this person that we're sending this gift, but I know that you're friends with them or that they're close enough within reach, like a Gigi Hadid would be, or a Mimi Cattrall. And I said, hey, can you just send me an address? I'm Going to blindly send it. If they hate it, they probably won't wear it. They probably won't open it for months. It is what it is. But can you like at least just give me an address and throw me a bone here? And they did.

[C]

And I will say we would never do that. Now all of our gifting is pre approved by the person that we are sending it to because it is. We don't want to waste product and also just continue to send to somebody who doesn't necessarily want it. But when we did ship it to Gigi, I think she might have had it for at least three.

[B]

I want to say two months.

[C]

Two months before she stepped out wearing it. And it just so happened that the paparazzi was there to catch it. I think at that point too, we were like, we're screwed. Like, our business is going under. And when that happened, it was like this huge moment because we literally just like never stopped working after that.

[A]

Yeah, that's crazy. So. So right when the time you guys needed a big break, that was your big break.

[C]

Yeah, it was crazy.

[B]

It's kind of crazy because when you think about manifestation, it's really more so taking the actions to make something happen and just believing in it so wholeheartedly that no matter how many times you get reject it. It's kind of like we surrendered to this failure and then it ended up becoming a success somehow. Like I. We were working really hard in general, but it kind of felt like in that moment we gave up to say, like, you know what, maybe this isn't for us. And then magically it became for us. But it wasn't in the industry that we had initially proposed it in.

[C]

Yeah, we had nothing left to lose at the time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I was. It's funny you say that. I was talking to a friend this week actually, and I was talking to him about, like, one thing I need to focus or be better at is being patient. I always want things yesterday. And you know, as founders, we move so fast. You know, things are done yesterday. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And he said to me, nathan, do you know what patience actually means to me? And I'm like, oh, just being more calm, like just waiting. Just like not expecting things that are going to happen to like literally yesterday. And he said, no, Patience means hard work means just working harder. And I, I really like that flip because sometimes, you know, because I know I'm an impatient person, I actually feel guilty sometimes because I always, like, you know, or maybe I just like, I feel bad that I want Things, Yes. I want to like all these things to happen. So I think it's really cool that you guys, you know, everything happens for a reason. I truly believe that. So I think it's really cool that you guys were at this point where you like thinking literally, is this going to fail? So take me back to that moment like, because I think it's a rite of passage for every founder where you know your next big. In any founder's journey, you have this big break. But just before that big break, things feel so tough. How'd you guys get through that?

[B]

Yeah, this is kind of crazy because the Gigi moment happened literally the week of us having a sit down conversation and being like we overspent in some areas. We don't have like any money to support this business. This is crazy.

[C]

We also didn't have a team of people really. It was just us to learning as, as we go type of thing. So I think like you said earlier, it was kind of like our big break and back then too, like influencer marketing and all that in general was still kind of fresh. Like it wasn't as huge as it is today. So the gifting aspect of it all, I think we were like starting on that journey with the rest of the world. Like it wasn't as big of like

[B]

a, I would say the only other emotional type brand that was in the market that would be similar to ours that I could like even think of from the top of my head would be a mad happy essentially. I think with us knowing in that pivotal moment of failure like that it's gonna be okay again. We had nothing to lose. We started from the like base bottom, like the, the bar was in hell, you know what I mean? So for us it was like at that point any win by any means was like, we won today. We really won big. We won the lottery. Even if it was the smallest, smallest step. And I think that for us, that moment and again that week it was really hard because we were again talking about this, this big failure and it was a really big moment for us. The fact that Gigi had stepped out in this full set and it was going viral and having this viral factor which is like much more digestible now as content versus then. I mean for us it sparked something in me where I was like, no, this is going to work. Like this is actually going to work and it's going to work really well. It's not going to work in cosmetics, it's not going to work in a consumable good, but it's Going to work in a good that you can wear your heart on your sleeve with. And that's what we push forward there with.

[A]

If you're listening to this episode, you're probably running a brand and trying to figure out how to scale your ads without burning cash. And, and that's exactly why we built Founder Operators. It's our private membership where Nick Shackleford himself and the founder team, who are the operators behind $200 million in profitable ad spend, actually work with you every week. They get inside your numbers, diagnose what's holding you back, and really help you learn how to scale your ads. This isn't a course. It's not a community full of beginners. It's. It's really a room of serious direct to consumer founders with a team that's managed $10 million a month in ad spend telling you what to fix and in what order. So if that sounds like something you'd be interested in, you want help scaling your ads? You want to be part of a like minded community of D2C operators, go to founder.com operators or hit the link in the show. Not. And when you said you literally had the conversation like that week or around that time that this isn't going to work, were you got, what were you guys, were you guys literally planning to shut up shop or were you kind of going to raise some more money or what were you thinking?

[B]

We weren't gonna go raise more money. At the time we were like, there's no way. We both also had like moved and transplanted ourselves to California from the east coast and from the Philadelphia area. We had a background in working in private label manufacturing for cosmetics. So that kind of helped us a little bit along the way, thinking that we would land in cosmetics. It also showed us, you know, the process of how something was made from start to finish. And you know, in that conversation of us saying, like, let's look at this on like a larger scope, we started looking at like, oh my God, we had spent all this money here versus here or oh my God, in the process of how it's made, did it really matter to have these really recognizable pieces of cosmetic components that were special molds for our logo, or would it have worked in just a singular bottle that you could have purchased wholesale at a trade show like Cosmoprof, for instance? And we were kind of going back and forth like, where did we go wrong here? Which actually made us discover, you know, again, like we went wrong in so many ways. But the only way we did go right in was the. Was the clothing. And Gigi was kind of like, the answer to that. I'm not saying everyone has that. I also don't believe there's any such thing as coincidences at the same time. So I don't know how that happened within the same week of each other, but it happened that way.

[C]

Well, it was also just empowering, too. I think that, like, even when we did talk about, like, okay, like, we have no money left, like, what are we gonna do? I will say I don't think either of us fully believed that, like, we be done. I think that we had so much will and so much drive that we wanted to figure out a way to make it work. So we were. We were like, what can we do? What can we do? And I think again, like, usually when you go through a heartbreak, and all the time, actually, when you go through heartbreak, it's terrible. And you're. And you're at. Like, you feel like it's the end of the world. And I think her stepping out in that set like that said boys, like, goodbye, maybe, like, woke something up. And people were there like, okay, this here's a strong woman stepping out right after her breakup with so much confidence. Like, I want to be like that, too. How can I be like.

[B]

And in a new brand that no one had really ever heard of, so it made it so niche so quickly. And again, it. The irony of it happening coincidentally, we never had a proper answer as to, like, what were we actually going to do, by the way? Like, we really were going day by day. Like, how can we just be better than we were yesterday? That was just the plan.

[A]

Yeah. And how much stock did you have at that time?

[C]

Not enough.

[B]

Well, not enough of the clothing, not enough. But of the makeup component loss. Imagine you need of each component, you have to purchase about 2 to 3,000 units of that component. And then we diversified that into multiple SKUs based off of colors. So we had, like, 48 SKUs of colors that were broken out from 2000.

[C]

Thousands of units.

[B]

Yeah, thousands.

[C]

And not failed.

[B]

Yeah, we still have those components today, which is kind of crazy.

[A]

There you go. Okay, so let's talk about Influencer. Like, just on this topic, like, working with creators, working with influencers, you guys, you know, a lot. A lot. A lot of founders, you know, hear stories that you work with a famous founder, so you work with a famous creator, and, you know, your business changes overnight. Right. You guys kind of a living example of that. Right. And you've worked with many other creators and influencers. And celebrities like, this is the thing that you guys do so a lot. So what would you say to founders when it comes to working with celebrities or content creators these days? What's. What's the whole play? And what. What are you seeing and what recommendations would you give?

[B]

I have a couple of them. First and foremost, your product needs to speak for itself. If you have a good product and you believe in your product, I think that. That. That standalone, whether you have an influencer, that's an Alex Earl, actually, I would call her a celebrity now. I would say influencer. Or a Kim Kardashian versus even micro influencers. As long as your product's good, it's gonna sell. And it's. As long as you believe in it and you wholeheartedly keep pushing that through, it's gonna sell. Yeah. My next thing was when we did do the gifting, essentially, we didn't just send it out to Gigi Hadid. We kind of thought, you know, like, how can we get someone like Kylie Jenner wearing our product? How do we get to someone that big? And we were talking about it, and we were like, you know, we spend more time together, the two of us, than we do with our family. So who does Kylie work with every day? Who are her best friends? What's her family like? So we started actually reaching out to her makeup artist, her hair person, and we started gifting out that way. And they ended up picking up the product, loving it, wanting more. And eventually Kylie kept seeing it. And eventually, then we got a request for Kylie to wear our product. So that would be my second form of advice, is kind of, who are these people that you're actually interested in engaging with? And who do they surround themselves with? Because that's a reflection of who they are. And I think my last thing, like, now the market's so different than it was a few years ago, so it becomes more difficult to work with people. I mean, I still. Now we check in with people and we're like, hey, what do you want? Here's the line sheet, essentially, of, like, these exact items. So seating is more. Or gifting is more intentional than what it used to be. Yeah, I think just, like, sometimes you really just gotta send a message, I think, to become more relatable to that influencer and how they use their narrative. So an example of this is, who did we DM this to? I think it was. I don't know who. I just remember this DM message that we came up with, and it was like, I'd give my left Pinky toe to see you wearing our stuff or would you do some charity work and wear our brand type of thing and opening up that message that's so personalized, that's less of like something that's so robotic or chatgpt like, like we'd love to send you gifting. Well, that's like a copy and paste message. When it comes from some sort of sincerity in regards to the narrative that aligns with that influencer, it's, it hits different. Yeah.

[C]

So like, even when it comes to like, like we switch it up too depending on who we're messaging. But I think what we've, I will give us a compliment here and say I think what we have done a really good job at is like being authentic to ourselves with this brand. So even when we first started and we were messaging our customers back and forth on Instagram, like it was always us, like it was our voice, it was how we would talk to each other normally. And so we've also trained now our employees to respond and I guess in the brand voice in that way in our DMs because we aren't robotic. We're very, we're from the east coast. So like we have a lot of energy and a lot of personality. And I feel like you want to make it, you want it to feel like you're talking to a friend rather than like you said, like a robot.

[B]

But I do think that this market and we were talking about this this morning and I'm not sure if you feel the same way here. It's become more difficult in regards to the playing field with influencers or celebrities based on ask and how much content value is actually worth for me, I feel content is so digestible now. So like when people do those long form pieces of content that are like, like a Runway show even being 15 minutes, I love watching that type of content and I see it but then I'm just like, oop, I'm just gonna scroll to the next thing now. And it makes you kind of wonder how one valuable the content that's being curated is even if that's somebody just being like hey, on their shop. My, like this is my boys lie hoodie and here's my affiliate link. Like hope to hope you guys buy it. I don't know anything like that or I love this hoodie. It's, it's become really interesting and almost like a strain. Something that we easily got taken advantage of and were really naive to in moving to LA and doing this is that we got taken advantage of by a lot of agents and representatives in saying, like, this person who's an influencer would love to work with you, would love to wrap the brand, but they want 10 grand or 20 grand or 150k. And at first we would like try and figure out a way to put together ten grand to even pay them to like put on the makeup. Now we stopped doing that entirely. We would never do that. We said that, like, if they want to wear the brand, they'll wear the brand, essentially. And that's the point that we had gotten to.

[C]

Yeah. It didn't feel authentic in the content that they had created.

[B]

Yeah. And then it was also like, it got to a point where when we started saying no to people, they would be like, what about for three grand? And again, this is way earlier on now people will ask for like crazy amounts of money. But I feel like now it's become so wild that I don't feel like influencers. And maybe this is just my hot take. You get someone that could be like, not an Alex Earl, but a very high up influencer and they'll be like, I think I deserve 150k for wearing your hoodie and doing a content video. And you say no to the agent and they go back and they're like, well, what about 40K? And then I'm kind of thinking to myself, well, now you just shot yourself in the foot. Because now I feel not only disrespected, but out of curiosity, what makes you think that this person can sell 40 grand worth of clothing? Can you send me any statistics based on other brands that they've worked with? Just out of curiosity, you know, just to kind of like really entertain this idea. Yeah. And they'll say no. And it's like, why as a brand would you risk giving someone almost a full yearly salary, not 40k but a full year salary of like 150 grand? Which is insane to me for no proof of skin in the game. And at that point it's like, let's share the royalty here, let's split the profit if you're going to really do that for collaboration. So we moved on to a collaboration agreement that is a split of profit on revenue. And people don't love it. That's why a lot of people don't prefer to like work with us on that higher level of a list celebrity. But the reason why we feel that way is because we've been burned in the past. And I again think that this market, it's, it's becoming so oversaturated. For someone that's saying they're an influencer versus celebrity, I think that there's like too much middle ground to cover.

[C]

Yeah. I also will say too, just because you have a million followers, like, doesn't mean you can sell a million dollars worth of product. We also learned the hard way that just because you have all these followers and you have high engagement, that doesn't also necessarily mean that someone's going to be buying what you're wearing. Some people might just like your page because of the aesthetics or because of what you're doing that maybe not because of what they're not going to go online and buy exactly what you're out.

[B]

No. And look like. Lee and I have been the faces of the brand, especially, I mean, since we started, but especially over the past two years, we've done all the photo shoots around the brand. The brand has like 180 ish thousand followers. We do $11 million. We did $11 million in sales last year. So when you think about it kind of at that scale versus someone who might have a million followers, well, I want to see them put like money where their mouth is. I want to see how much cash they're actually generating weekly based, not based off of just their talent content, but I want to see what they're producing to like support that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, you make some really good points, especially around, I think, the relationship. So that it's, it really comes down to the relationship, trust and rapport that that content creator or influencer has with their audience. And it is very few and far between. Like in, you know, with my brand, I don't run it anymore, I sold it. But there were some micro influencers that we worked with that just had a really, really, really good relationship, clearly with their community. And the product just fit and drove a lot of sales. But then there were some with like hundreds of thousands of followers and like you said, drives nothing. Some key things that I noticed and I'd love to hear your guys take is I find creators, especially that have a YouTube channel, really, really strong creators or celebrities that have shown some form of vulnerability, like in a deep level on tv, really, really strong as well. They just have a lot of trust. They just have more trust with their community. Like so for anyone watching now, what do you guys look for when it comes to content creators, celebrities, influencers that you work with? Are there any key traits like I

[B]

shared so we can see actually some things that happen where we're like, oh my God. An example of this would be like Amanda Petula From Summer House, which is a Bravo TV series. They had an episode last night that was a very emotional episode. Or two nights ago that was a very emotional episode. She was in a fight with her husband. Her husband really wasn't treating her well, but she was in a full set head to toe in Boys Lie. Um, after that episode had aired, if

[C]

the set sold out, we sold out, like, immediately. And she wasn't even saying anything about those sets. She was.

[B]

She had. It had nothing to do with, hey, I love Boys Lie. Absolutely zero to do with that. It was simply her wearing it. And I think another thing in regards to trust is it does take an influencer more than once or celebrity more than once to wear it. To really see the reflection of, like that buying power. For instance, you'll get a couple buys. Jessica Alba, for instance, has posted wearing our stuff without a tag or anything like that. She had immediate. An immediate reaction where we saw the item she was wearing. From her post on her story time versus our Shopify time of people buying it, it showed a reflection of an increase of buys. Then she started posting it more and more, and that showed you even more buys than what had previously happened for the first time that she had posted. So I think sometimes it also takes consistency. And I think as well as not having that hashtag sponsored or hashtag partner or whatever it is, we just give ours as a gift and we built the relationship that way versus saying, like, yeah, I'll pay you for doing this. If this was a photo shoot, it would be different or like a formal collaboration. Obviously we. We would pay for those types of scenarios. But for simple gifting, this is a gift to you. And if it plants the seed with the audience, that's amazing. But that's, I think, my answer there.

[C]

Yeah, no, I'm thinking about, like, the emotional connection part to it too. I think that it really also depends like, Like Toria was speaking on the Summer House episode like that just so. She just so happened to be wearing Boys Lie in a scene that was very Boys Lie coded, I'd say. But then there's also been other circumstances too, you know, where, like Alix Earl, we keep using her as an example, but she's such a great example. When she was with Braxton, she was consistently wearing Boys Lie even though she was in a happy relationship. And I think that, like, no matter what, as long as it feels authentic to the person and it feels authentic to them, I think that's what sells anything in general. Like, if, if, if she's putting on something That, I don't know, makes her feel uncomfortable or she's never worn before. It's not. People aren't going to be thinking about it as much as they would be if they're consistently seeing her wearing it.

[B]

Some people want it for the moment too. I think that's what's so exciting for a brand like ours. Specifically. Ariana Maddox, she was in a show called Vanderpump Rules. She had a huge breakup go on where her best friend was sleeping with her. It felt like basically husband at the time. They were like in a 10 year relationship. And at the reunion for this is another Bravo show. We love our Bravo liberties. But at the reunion we got a request from a stylist, her stylist Emily Mann. And she was like, I need to get Ariana wearing this into the reunion. And it was shot by TMZ and all these different people. And it got picked up really quickly and that set sold out. And just in the preview of the reunion.

[C]

And unfortunately that was something we weren't able to prepare for ahead of time. So we didn't. I mean we sold out of our inventory. We didn't have more to restock, but it ended up creating like a partnership or a relationship with her. So then we ended up collabing with her again later down the line and with Uber where we had this shirt that said call an Uber, not your, not your ex. And it was donated to Alexandria or parts of it were donated to Alexandria House. Yeah, it was so long ago. But we. That created this relationship with her too. That sparked a new collaboration out of

[B]

it which was really cool and exposure. Right. Like, so a huge part of this do like, let's say you don't see immediate ROI on someone wearing something. You might get something else out of it. We saw it again with. I'm going to use the same examples as Amanda Batula and Ariana Maddox. But what was so exciting about Ariana Maddox is although we didn't have inventory on hand to support the demand of what people were requesting and we sold out so quickly is that we actually got a reach out from. I, I believe it was Nordstrom's who was like, I saw this. I need to get boys lie in Nordstrom's. We are huge Vanderpump fans. I'm a huge fan. So it might just be the buyer's preference as well.

[C]

And that's literally how we brought on. She felt a customer. Yeah.

[B]

She felt so connected to this show that she had to have boys lie in the Nordstrom store. And now Nordstrom's is one of our

[C]

bigger retailers and that graphic 1-800-boys eye is still one of our top selling graph fix as well.

[A]

Yeah. So, okay, so I think we really covered like how you guys work with creators, all of that good stuff. Really, really, really helpful just for founders right now. So you would recommend starting with gifting. Don't pay just around that out, right?

[B]

Yeah. I mean you wouldn't. You're essentially, you are paying, right. You're paying for the product to gift them. You're paying for the shipping materials to send them this gift. You are spending money. I'm not saying that you aren't. You're just not giving them cash as a cash out, saying, hey, take this money just to wear my product. It just doesn't make sense.

[A]

I agree. That's how I've always done it. I've always done extreme amounts of gifting and then certain people pick up the product. You see, you can. It's a little bit of a testing ground as well. Who, if you want to further collaborate and work with them. Yeah.

[B]

Especially for direct to consumer focus. Right. Like we are strictly direct to consumer. So you can't go and just touch the product or go see it or try it on. It's like you really have to find a way to vocalize how great this product is and amplify that voice. And I think that that's something for direct to consumer wise, like ship it out in a box. That's how they're going to receive it as well, you know?

[A]

Yeah. And people, I think founders often think, oh, I want that return. But one of the awesome things is getting the content because the content is gold. Right. You can use that in your creative. From a paid media standpoint, you can use it in your social content like in some of the creative. It does. Like it can be better than getting the sales because that's what costs you a lot of money to make awesome creative. So totally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's something that a lot of people forget about as well, I think.

[B]

Think. Yeah.

[A]

All right, so let's talk about. You were talking about Nordstrom. I want to talk about wholesale revenue, that side of the business. So you guys about 60, 40 D2C wholesale retail, right?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. So how do you manage cash flow with major retailers when they operate on net 30 terms that. That don't often start until goods are physically received?

[B]

That's actually a great question. I mean, do you want to answer?

[C]

Yeah. So I mean our. Since our D2C is obviously bigger, like it's Growing and our margins better there. So we kind of use that to like maintain cash flow. And we want to keep growing the DTC business to be bigger than wholesale, obviously, because that's where we make.

[B]

That's the foundation of business.

[C]

So it really just depends. And also like, we have a really solid relationship with our manufacturer who we've been working with for years now. And so I would also say like creating a good relationship with the people like that are making your clothes and coming to like an understanding of like, I guess, price points and when you're paying them. It also kind of like all works together in the same type of flow. So I think just making sure like our D2C is constantly growing and so we have cash consistently coming in and also just being able to talk to manufacturers as well.

[B]

What's the company we almost worked with that was. That could give out loans for. I forget there's a. Essentially there's a couple factoring companies as well that people use in the retail industry, even privately owned brands. We haven't gotten into that yet. But I will say there's so many positive attributes. Hilden, sorry. Is the one I would recommend to anyone in our space. But this factoring company, for instance, they can assist in providing you essentially the loan against the purchase order for cash to upfront for production. And they also follow up in making sure that you get paid back as well as them getting paid back. So that's kind of a cool thing. And they definitely supported, I mean huge, huge businesses from even like Saks to people who purchased as well, like are sent.

[C]

They follow up with like retailers to get paid.

[B]

Yeah. For some of the retailers that have gone out, they've actually been able to pay out those brands that had purchase orders that were under their umbrella as well, even though the companies weren't paying them themselves. So like people who went up for bankruptcy or whatever it is that they had to file for that hadn't paid against that net 30 term bo or net 45, whatever it is. Those factoring companies can really help chase the money while also just getting you your money back right away. And I would recommend that to anyone in business. Our predicament's very like very, very special.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that ours is very unique in the way that we've been able to support that. What I love about the factor in companies like A Hilden is that it ensures the purchase order and it ensures your safety in regards to getting the loan to produce.

[A]

That's a great one. Thank you. And I want to talk about as well. Your pre book model for wholesale accounts, how does that work? I think it's genius. How'd you come up with that? Is that from you guys pulled that from your career previously in this space?

[B]

No.

[C]

So we actually, I think it was our second or second or third year business. We started working with the third party wholesale team. Obviously we had never done wholesale before clothing. So we were really excited and they taught us this model. It's really, really helpful because we're pre booking months out. So right now we're selling. That's why I always forget what month we're in too because we're pre booking fall of 2026. So we're so far out but it's still like feels like you can you get a better understanding of what products are going to be top sellers, what wasn't popular at all. And so when we look at the numbers based on like what revolve bought, what Nordstrom bought, you compare it to

[B]

kind of to say, you know what, now we can kind of forecast what these D2C favorites will be based off of what retailer favorites would be or what their opinion is. And it kind of helps you carve out or shape or chisel away at like what inventory you would or would would not buy into design wise.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It is kind of crazy because while Leah focuses on that side of the business, like I'm designing for April of 2027 right now. Sorry. So it's kind of nuts that we're already. Well she's months ahead in selling that. I'm already also months ahead in designing for the following year.

[C]

Yeah, I will say too in terms of like looking at like what your top selling styles are once they are live on your website. We also have sell through reports too which is super helpful. So if like a style sold out within, I don't know, let's say three days and people are consistently wanting it to restock. Like we look at those two to help think, okay, maybe we can factor, we can add these back into June 2027 because we know that these were top sellers and they're going to want to have them again.

[B]

Revolve is actually really good with that too. Especially with us. I would say that they're a great customer for anyone in the apparel space. I definite like I love working with them. Yeah, they're great at also calling out as well like not just the product and them loving the design, but how do we make this product even better for the future. And I really like like feedback. I, I yeah and I really appreciate that on a design level, and that helps us even develop into the future. Like, how. How can we do better ourselves or do better than yesterday, even for me, in the design aspect of what can come for the future.

[C]

One more thing too, and I will say is like, the pre book model that we use, we love it and, like, we would never stop. I will say, though, sometimes if one style, let's say, doesn't get as many buys as we thought it would, me and Tori have a conversation where if she's super passionate about something and she wants to keep it, we will take a risk on that style. And we have had moments where even though none of the boutiques bought it and none of our major retailers bought it, we took a risk on a style and it ended up being one of the top sellers. So you kind of have to, like, trust your gut on certain things too, instead of just looking at data as, like, the strict way to figure out what you want to produce. So if she really wants to do it, I'm like, all right, we trust you. We're going to make it. And sometimes it. It becomes a top seller.

[B]

Yeah. But I wouldn't recommend doing that to, like, multiple. No, like, pick two of. Pick one or two. One or two. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I think people listening, watching this would be thinking, wow, what a great fortunate position to be in where you're using this pre book model where wholesalers, you know, booking in advance or all these different collections that you guys are selling. And as you said, the data is golden as well.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

If we just wind back for a second, what do you think are some of the key things that you guys have done to build an exceptional brand where people are lining up to work with you in that way? What do you, like, what, what, what advice would you give to founders that are in that stage where they want to have that level of brand authority in the space?

[B]

I think one would be transparency from brand to the retailer as well. And that even comes with deliverables. And as well as saying, like, hey, like, like boys lies, not the size of Victoria's Secret or Abercrombie and Fitch or Juicy Couture, like, we're a really small brand. And in the beginning parts of even negotiating your wholesale agreement with a bigger retailer or with retailers, you. You should write out kind of like a, hey, this is my terms and conditions. Like, like, this is what I can fulfill. This is what I can't. There's gonna be moments, transparently where, you know, we're doing our best to deliver. It might be A weekly, like, it won't be. It'll be seven to ten days late max. And kind of give yourself that window initially with them and kind of discussing your terms and conditions or, hey, we have this much time to change up a product in between the time that you order versus the time that we deliver in case they want to say, like, I actually want that sweatshirt in blue. But having that transparency with your vendors from the initial process of discussing your terms and how you're going to do business together, that sets the floor for a better future of success between the two of you.

[C]

And transparency with your customers too. I think from the beginning too, like, we would hop on our Instagram, be like, guys, we're so sorry your order's delayed. It's just us too. We're doing the best we can. We're literally packing out orders right now in the warehouse, us. And like, we were constantly explaining the process of things back in the day. I think since since then, obviously, like, our customer base has grown with us and understands it a little bit more. But to touch on the emotional side of it too, I think. I do think our brand DNA is very strong and I think that's extremely important to have when you are starting something. Like, why are people going to pick, for example for us, like, why are people going to pick our sweatshirt over another brand or buying a sweatshirt from Amazon? I think everybody has a connection to some type of heartbreak in their life, no matter what. And I think it's emotional. And I think when you're buying our brand, it feels like you're connecting to something that's bigger than you because it's. Everyone in the world again, has gone through some type of.

[B]

But back to the wholesale aspect of it. Sorry, I don't want to, like, stray too far away from the question either. I really think transparency is key. And how we also, like, started, like, realistically, even with the clothing or the two apparel pieces that we initiated with, we didn't do custom cut and sew. We didn't do the custom fabrics that we do now. We grew and progressed into that. But we did have to buy, like, we initially started with, with Gildan Comfort Colors Independent clothing. We put them through specialty washes to make them feel, like, better. I guess they're like, really stiff. When you buy wholesale for, like, sweatshirts, hoodies, sweatpants, they're so stiff and so like, itchy and uncomfortable. So we wanted to kind of add something to it to make it a little bit more like, soft, progressive and better quality. And so when you, when you play in that field and you're like, what are my capabilities to even with this smaller budget, play with this product, Start, start smaller, but like expand on that and see how you can develop that further and work with the wholesale team. Again, transparently to say, like, here, here are the fabrics we're working with. If you have to work off of a cad, at least have something that you can try on to say, hey, this is going to be a similar fit for them. Like, show them how they can feel, touch, see the product before it's even in their hands or before it's even visible to them, really. And I think again, the terms outside of that on the operation side, be extremely detailed with that and open and honest and negotiate too.

[A]

Yeah, I look, I, I hear on the negotiating piece, right, like the person that is prepared to walk away usually gets the best deal.

[B]

Yeah, 100%.

[A]

All right. Want to switch gears? There's something that I want to talk to you guys about that is not talked about enough in this space is unfortunately, you had a serious breach of trust when a long term employee allegedly embezzled funds. How did that experience change the way you approach hiring and accountability and day to day operations moving forward? I know I've had that in my career where, you know, team members have stolen money from me. Many of my friends have had it. It's something that a lot of people don't talk about and it is way more common than you think. And it's actually very hard to prosecute as well. So I'd love to hear your guys take.

[B]

Well, just so everyone knows too, with this situation, we're very thorough, especially now with credit cards and whatnot. But we had this one person solely responsible for doing credit card reconciliation as well as entering in the accounting pieces to things so randomly. Do you want to kind of start with the story of it all?

[C]

Yeah. So I, me and Tori were sitting, I think it was like a Friday afternoon at like 4pm and she gets forwarded a credit card statement from my credit card from our CEO at the time asking like why I'm buying Postmates for lunch every day, three times a day. So I look at it with Tori, I'm like, I don't even have Postmates on my phone. This is not me. And I realized that something was incredibly wrong. So from there we were, I was

[B]

like, from there, let's print out all the statements from this past year. I want to go over and kind of highlight like where we might have gone wrong or maybe this was for a photo shoot. Because you do have. You are required to feed people on set for shoots, which is.

[C]

That's.

[B]

And you would want to.

[C]

Yeah, but you are required too.

[B]

So I was like, okay, maybe. Maybe I'm missing something. This could be me. And I'm. I'm like, let's get these. These credit card. Just statements printed out. So, yeah, Lee and I spent, I think, around like four hours highlighting credit card statements. It actually lasts.

[C]

Every single person's credit card.

[B]

Yeah, every single person's credit card. And we had about, I think, I want to say seven or eight people on the team, but after looking at Leah' credit card and started highlighting through the year only we were like, I want to go back three years now. So we started going back up to three years of credit card statements between nine credit cards.

[C]

Yeah, she wasn't only using mine, so

[B]

it was kind of. It was really intense. We got through all the highlighting. We totaled everything up. It ended up being around 50 grand. From there, we put together basically an entire Dropbox folder of all of these charges, as well as linked it essentially to a document where we typed through each day, kind of what that looked like, how it was reconciled, what it should have been, or if this wasn't us or was us. And it's kind of crazy. You should keep receipts on everything is my best recommendation. We then submitted. Where do we submit that to?

[C]

Well, I will say the way that we caught that it was this one employee too, was because we had a feeling it was. Oh, yeah, she would always go snowboarding at this one mountain in California. We saw all these charges to that town. We also saw her name, her sister's name, on a flight, like a Southwest flight receipt. We also had receipt. Was her name on it?

[B]

Fence.

[C]

Yeah, a brand new fence. So we, by that point we were like, okay, here's enough proof. We, after we uploaded onto like a folder, we also then printed everything out because we're old school. And we called the police, they came over, we handed them a huge document, they took down all the information. And as you know, like, I think it's not talked about enough, I think, because a lot of the times these types of cases move very slowly, especially here in Los Angeles when there's people.

[B]

I mean, people get away with murder here. Yeah. Like, truthfully, I think we're in a really weird political stage right now in la. And I think in the year that this has happened, it was way more. It was way worse.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think at the time when we handed it in to the. I think the DA's office, essentially the person who was leading our case for this $50,000 that were taken from us. She ended up getting transferred to, got

[C]

promoted to the homicide division. So we're. And then the next detective that came and emailed us, which by the way we got the email that she was promoted to the homicide division about like a year and a half, a year later maybe. And then by the time we heard from the new detective, they asked if we could send all of the information again. And at that point, at the point

[B]

it was just like we. It's almost like you've exhausted your fight. That's the first thing. And we might never see how much more can we spend our time to fighting off this 50k versus making 50k?

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

I think your time has to become so like you have to be so crucial in the way that you accrue time and time is something you just can never get back. And it's the most expensive thing I think in regards to life.

[C]

Yeah, it was very emotionally also draining. We were very, very angry for a long time. And I will say that situation, I'm happy that it happened. I'm not happy it happened but I'm happy that it happened at that point because from now, now we double checked.

[B]

Now we're at the thorough. We have, we have three accountings people that are on this. They're not doing, it's not one person doing credit card reconciliating. It's. It's three people that we're cross checking through and making sure that you know the company budgets. Especially with our CEO now who I really love him, his name is Jason Reed. He really is very thorough with us in regards to cash flow report as well as just credit card reconciliation. What expenses look like each month. The entire P and L like the three of us go through on Mondays and just say like hey, this is our opex, this is what it's looking like this week. Where are we at? Where do we need to save? Where can we save? What projects are going to be over expensed here. And I think that's really important that communication between multiple team members. I obviously don't think that one person can be trusted to do it. And honestly the result of that has made I think Leah and I very jaded when it comes to hiring people and not really trusting them immediately. Unfortunately it's something I probably need to work on more personally.

[C]

But it is what it is. I trust is earned and unfortunately we got burned by somebody who we did trust and it will never Happen again or we'll try our absolute best to make sure it never happens again.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, I'm really sorry to hear that, guys. And it always be worse. I'm just glad, you know, you have the right systems in place and sometimes you have to learn things the hard way. Right?

[B]

Yeah. And I think, I think the worst thing you can do is cry about it. Like, we laugh now. Obviously at the time we were very much so not lying. It is a lot of money. But being that there is only so much that we tried to. I mean, there's so much that you can do. We, we tried everything that we possibly could. We put in our best efforts in and we were like, you know what? Like, let's count this as a loss and we have to move on with our day. And now again, we laugh about it, but it'll never happen again. Like, it truly will never happen again.

[A]

Well, thank you for sharing. All right, we have to work towards wrapping up. I have one last question for you guys. Talk to us about your house of brands long term vision. What criteria or revenue thresholds must a potential sub brand meet for you to consider integrating it under the Boys Lie operational umbrella and what's exciting for the future?

[B]

I think for the boys like umbrella in general, it's opening up different categories of the brand that, that we weren't really welcome to before, whether that be swimwear, doing a baby line. I'm, you know, four and a half months pregnant right now. So like maybe we do babies lie down in the future. We have Girls Lie coming, which is a really fun and exciting project we've been working on for some time now. And yeah, I think for us, our future changes every day. I think what's the, what is the saying?

[C]

If you make a plan, you make plans and God laughs.

[B]

So I think it comes each day. We were offered to be at least the majority of our business bought out two years ago. We didn't end up selling, which was a very interesting perspective. We kind of looked at that and said, you know, if this is our first opportunity, what's the next one going to look like? So, you know, we're for the right price. Yeah, we're open to anything. I think that's with anyone and their business. And I think for the future of Boys Lie opening up categories and like, I think the threshold is dependent on whatever the business calls for at that time and whatever the demand is. I think that changes, that can change overnight. Sorry, that's kind of. I hope that was good.

[C]

There's also One more avenue that we are opening up in, I guess this year or next year. But we can't talk about it yet, unfortunately. But it's something that is really exciting that we've never done before that's going to be launching in February of 2027. So just keep an eye out. Unfortunately, we can't talk about it yet.

[B]

It is connected to our podcast, which is really exciting. And that's a way for. The actual blueprint of the brand was based off of heartbreak that Lee and I had gone through and how we hurdled over it. And that kind of gave the inspiration behind, you know, some of the apparel that we picked to design and put out there together. And now we get our inspiration from everywhere, from our audience especially. But people submit their stories, their boys lie stories, which we anonymously read on the podcast, and they get a sweatsuit out of it for the ones that are selected to be chosen to be read. And it really brings back the pillars of what the brand means and what the brand stands on. And it's a really good representation of that, having to. And it involves like actual everyday people. This isn't someone who is like a Kim Kardashian or an Alex Earl or

[C]

whatever that's giving voice or giving a customer a voice.

[B]

So this next chapter will continue to do that in the next year, which we're really excited about that expansion.

[A]

Incredible. Well, Tori and Leah, congratulations on all of your success thus far. Thank you for such an incredible opening just blueprint on how to build a successful apparel fashion brand. Congratulations again, guys. Thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

[C]

For having us. That was fun.

[A]

Hey, Founder fam. Thank you so much for tuning in today and if you enjoyed this episode, please take the time to leave us a review and let us know what you think. This podcast is 100% free. We work so hard to go out and find the most successful founders and entrepreneurs all around the globe. So your feedback helps us grow, improve, and even bring on more incredible guests and insights. So if you have a second, please take a moment and leave us a review. You it really means a lot to me and the founder team. It makes so much of a difference. Thank you again for listening and I'll catch you on the next episode.