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The Futur with Chris Do
340 - The Truth About Billion-Dollar Success - With Tom Bilyeu (Part 1)
00:39:40
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- [00:00]
Tom Bilyeu
All of your actions are going to be downstream of your values. So my number one value is my marriage. Nothing has returned more life is worth living dividends than my marriage. So my wife and I state emphatically over and over that our marriage is our number one priority. This is Tom Bilyeu and you're listening to the Future.
- [00:29]
Chris Do
It's not often that I'm able to get out of the studio and oftentimes when I'm trekking across LA and people are familiar with LA traffic, really understand this, it is a nightmare. But here I am in Tom's studio, his home, and it's an amazing setup. I'm in the belly of the beast, the heart of the engine, and I'm really impressed with what all you've done. So today I hope to be able to ask you some of the questions that maybe pull you into a space where you might. It might get a little saucy, as the kids say. Is that okay?
- [00:55]
Tom Bilyeu
I'm here for all the sauce.
- [00:56]
Chris Do
So we've had a conversation prior to us going live that Tom's encouraged me to push and pull and to pull in the threads and do the deep follow up questions. So here's the thing, we'll just set up this thing in case people don't know who you are. You have exited, famously, out of a company that you started with your wife and partner and it's reported as a billion dollars exit. I've not had opportunities to sit in front of somebody where they've achieved so much in such little time. So if you don't mind, I'd just like to pull on a couple of those strings.
- [01:24]
Tom Bilyeu
Let's go.
- [01:25]
Chris Do
Okay, so billion sounds like a freaking lot of money, everybody. And it really does. So what is your take home from that?
- [01:31]
Tom Bilyeu
Money is far more powerful than people think, but it's not what they think it is. So money is a great facilitator. It lets you do things and that is incredible, but it doesn't make you feel differently about yourself. So the awesome thing about the way that I made money was that it was for years and years, it was just on paper, on paper, on paper. So I was worth hundreds of millions of dollars and I was driving a beat up Ford Focus with a leaky exhaust. And so I used to laugh my ass off. I'm like, this is hilarious. And then one day you're on a call with like nine lawyers and they're all like, okay, release the funds, release the funds, release the funds, release the funds. They're like, all right, guys, It'll be in your account in, like, three minutes. And so you just sit there on your banking app, like, hitting refresh. And then all of a sudden, like, one refresh. Just a lot of commas and zeros. And I'm looking at my wife, and I'm like, holy shit. Like, we did it. Like, this is crazy. And, oh, wow, this is weird. All of my insecurities are still here. So whatever I thought might happen when I got money, nope. Like, wherever you go, there you are. Broke, you're going to be the same person. Rich, you're going to be the same person. But becoming the kind of person that's able to generate wealth, that's the game. And so for me, luckily, I learned that in my early 20s and realized, oh, I get it. This is a game of skill acquisition. And if I can acquire enough skills, then I literally can't be told what I have to do. I can just be so good at something, people can't stop me. My favorite quote is from Kobe Bryant. Booze, don't block dunks. And, oh, God, I love that so much that you really can just become unstoppable. And so that whole moment was really powerful for me to realize, okay, now I can build the things that I want to build. And that is insane. That carries with it something really profound. And, I mean, look at what we're going through now with Elon Musk. He would not have the opportunities that he has if he were just a really smart guy in obscurity, but he's not. He's a really smart guy that's put that to use, generating a ton of money so he can get politically involved, building incredible companies so he's got the proof of, like, this is not a fluke. Like, I'm. You know, I mean, just the things he's accomplished put him in a totally different league. So the money is real. Money is influence. Money is power. You can get people around you. Either they want something from you because you have the money, or you get to build things that you want is a gravitational thing. Like, it. It distorts reality around it. Very powerful. But I think people do think it will make them think they're cool, and it won't.
- [03:56]
Chris Do
So that moment that happens when you're, like, looking at your bank account and those commas and the zeros start coming in. Can you just take me back there in time? And, like, what did that emotionally feel like for you? Just seeing that? What's the story you're telling yourself in that moment?
- [04:09]
Tom Bilyeu
Okay, so in that Moment may not be the most interesting thing. I'll give you that. And then I'll tell you maybe the far more interesting moment. In that moment, I was thinking you're holding your breath because you know something could go wrong, that one of the nine lawyers on the call might be like, actually, wait, guys, hold on. We can't distribute. So the whole time you're doing all the paperwork, you just keep saying to yourself, like, are we really going to get this across the finish line? Is this really going to happen? Because you never know. Like, when we finally sold. Sold the company, it was three months later that Covid hit. So you never know. Like, if Covid hits right before we sell, does that. Is it better? Is it worse? You never know. But so you're always like, ah, anything could happen to the markets. So that moment is more just the relief of, like, oh, we actually got this across the finish line. And then I think that moment maybe was a little more surprising to my wife than it was to me, because she was like, oh, my God, like, we're so rich. Like, what are we going to do? I was like, what do you mean? I'm going to work? And she was like, what? And I was like, yeah, this is a normal day for me. I'm. I'm not going to suddenly be the guy that made it. Like, I'm a certain way. I'm a builder. I'm going into work. And if you had asked the average employee at Quest, they would have no idea what day the money hit. They just wouldn't know. I was in the office, same as ever, was building, trying to, like, get where I wanted to go. That was a little jarring for my wife. For her, she had sacrificed for so many years before becoming an entrepreneur herself that there was a lot of residual of, like, I need there to be a finish line.
- [05:38]
Chris Do
Yeah.
- [05:39]
Tom Bilyeu
And so for her, I think that felt like, not like, okay, now we're done, but like, that we would take time off and we would go celebrate. And so that was, oddly enough, there was a bit of friction between us, where to be the person I needed to be. I needed to go to work. For her to be the person she needed to be, she needed to say, like, this is my life. I want to celebrate this moment. So that was interesting. Now, the moment that I think is really fascinating in all this is before I got the money. And this, if you can hear my voice, this is the moment. This is your whole life is about. Every now and then, you're going to get what I'm about to describe, which is, everything is working. It's about to pay off. That's the best moment. So the best moment in all of this was the first day. Remember, I don't have the money yet, but the first day, I allowed myself to go mansion shopping and be like, I might actually be able to afford this house in, like, three weeks. This is crazy. And so I go from a kid from Tacoma who's always lived modestly to I am in Bel Air, and I'm looking at mansions, and I'm like, if this goes through, I'll be able to afford that mansion. Like, this is nuts. And I couldn't help myself. I would get up super early and just drive out, because I used to go there to inspire myself, to stay motivated. I would go drive around Bel Air and be like, one day, One day, One day, one day. And all of a sudden, I'm like, I'm three weeks from that one day. And I remember saying to Lisa, like, this is so dangerous because something could fall apart, and this will just be emotionally devastating because now I'm, like, really leaning into this, but I'm like, I can't help myself. I got to go do it. So that was sort of peak emotion, was actually before it happened. And I've just found every time in my life that something really, like a pinnacle thing that you're going to be like, I'll remember this thing forever. It's the buildup to that moment is awesome. The moment itself is great, and it has a lot of utility. But there's something about the dopamine cycle. Dopamine isn't the reward for having. It's the pursuit molecule. It's the thing that makes you chase. And so when you're at that, like, oh, my God, I've gotten so good at running, and I'm chasing, and I'm about to grab that thing that is the coolest part.
- [07:52]
Chris Do
I got an opportunity to talk to Lisa briefly before this, and she said it broke her, this whole pursuit. It took a toll on her. So this is the story of two entrepreneurs. You're building this thing together, and if the research is right, she's the one who crafts the first bar and helps you figure out this thing. Right? And so it has taken a toll on her. And her thing is, we've been running at this, and I'm ready to take a break and celebrate. So two entrepreneurs look at the same, quite literally the exact same circumstance. Because you're in this two together, what is it that makes you wired a little bit differently? Or what? Can you draw upon these two very different ways of looking at this one moment that's about to happen?
- [08:32]
Tom Bilyeu
Yeah. Well, so for historical accuracy, it was my other partner's wife who made the first bar.
- [08:37]
Chris Do
Okay, shout out to her.
- [08:38]
Tom Bilyeu
I sucked Lisa into this very shortly thereafter. And the way that two people can look at the same thing comes down to something I call frame of reference. So your whole life, one, you're 50% hardwired, and there's nothing you're going to be able to do to change that. We all have an essence. We have a personality. You can see it when kids are very, very young, and then you have 50% of you, that's malleable, but it's being shaped from the time that you're born. And so, arguably, the first three years are the most important three years of your development that's going to establish who you're going to be for the rest of your life. So Lisa and I are just two different people. So already we have different frames of reference. And then men and women are going to look at this stuff very differently. And then on top of that, like, just the things that we reinforce in each other are going to be very different. And so my whole thing is, like, I value myself for getting tougher, being stronger, being able to endure that. This isn't just about the money, because I had to really turn a corner on that. The first almost decade of my entrepreneurial career was just about getting rich. That burned me out. And so another part of it was just being true to the fact that I'm not just doing this for the money. Money's a real part of it. And I'm still pursuing more money despite all my success, but it's not just about that. And so for me to take time off on the day that I got the money was like a betrayal of that. And so that's just my frame of reference. I'm not saying it's empirically true. I'm just saying with my frame of reference and all the things that I told myself to stay motivated, all the values that I've built up, it just wasn't in alignment to then take that time off. The most gangster way to be me was to go to work on the day that you just got enough money, you never need to work again. And so same when we started Impact Theory. So we leave Impact Theory, we've now been rich for quite a while. And I leave Quest on a Monday, and I start Impact Theory the next morning, Tuesday. And that to me was like, again, just like, yo, proving something to myself about who I am and what I value. But I'm not trying to persuade my wife to see it the same because my frame of reference isn't right. It's just right for me. And so I'm always a little bit worried that my wife will get sucked into my reality distortion field so far that she's not having fun anymore. So just physically, my wife can't handle the levels of stress that I can. So something won't even make my radar as stressful. And my wife is like losing weight and digestive system, which she struggled with for a very long time, will start going haywire. And so we had to really make a delineation and say, look, you're not valuable to the company in that you can match me hour for hour. You bring a totally different skill set. We celebrate that. We identify it. This is not some mystery like, oh, I just want to make her feel good. She's unbelievably good at things that I am just absolute trash at. And so it's like, cool, you're not going to be able to match me hour for hour, but you have a partner that can work those crazy hours. So you should be stoked about that. Just as I'm stoked about somebody that has the skill set of an integrator that can actually make sure I don't drive us off, off a cliff. So we had to really bring that stuff to the forefront so she wouldn't sort of subconsciously go, well, I'm not as valuable because I can't work as much as you. You have to navigate that stuff because the work has to get done. Somebody has to do it. But especially because I'm her husband, it's like I want to take the physical toll. I want to be the one that goes out and hunts the mastodon and puts myself at risk. And I want you to be safe. So it makes me feel good. Good that I'm like driving myself like crazy over here, clocking. At one point, I was working 120 hours a week for eight months. Not good. I don't advise it. It was misery. But when I was doing it, I was like, I'm doing it so you don't have to. And that made me feel really good. Now we had to work with her to make sure she didn't feel really badly because that was her initial impulse. But yeah, it all boils down to frame of references.
- [12:39]
Chris Do
I'm trying to keep track of all the threads I want to follow up with you on. But we're here right now. So this hits home a lot because a lot of people are in relationships not at this level of success, not this level of stress or this workload. But you said, you know, first of all, we're in this together. Don't feel bad because I just operate at a different speed. That's awesome that you did that. But what about the other side? I'm asking more for me and my own personal relationship here, where it's like, hey, can you slow down? And us time. Is it always about the work? And how do you manage that? Because I always admire people who are able to build things together and still together in a relationship. It's. It's a miracle for me to see that when. When that happens. So how do you address that, or is that even an issue?
- [13:16]
Tom Bilyeu
It's an issue every day. So one value system is everything. All of your actions are going to be downstream of your values. So my number one value is my marriage. Nothing has returned more life is worth living dividends than my marriage. So my wife and I state emphatically over and over that our marriage is our number one priority. So when I was working 120 hours for eight months, finally I had to say to my wife, I will find my way back to you. So I know that I'm now stressing the marriage unduly. This is not good for our relationship. And there's a thing that I thought I would be able to get on the other side of just by outworking. It's not going to work. I realized now I need a different strategy. I'm going to have to do less and find other people that can make up some of the ground here. And so I said, give me a couple months, and by the end of that, I will show you. I will be back to you. My stress levels will be back to me, normal, My hours will be back to normal, and we'll be good. And I did it. And so that ended up giving a lot of credibility in that I will get out of those situations. Now. At the end of that, my wife said, this has left scar tissue for me. So for eight months, I basically had to go back to being the wife who just disengages from her husband, who's working so much that I don't feel like I'm in an active marriage. And I was like, hey, that is extremely fair. I now have protection mechanisms to make sure I don't ever find myself back there again. I understood what led to it. Not going to do that anymore. And we'll have to process through to show you that I'm willing to do the things, meaning to corral the amount of time that I spend working on the business to make sure that you get what you need from a husband. So we have found a thing. When I work 93 hours a week, everything runs smooth. And because I sleep so much less than my wife, just naturally, I don't set an alarm. I haven't set an alarm in over 15 years. I just wake up after roughly six hours. So we go to bed at the same time. I wake up after six. She'll wake up after, like, nine. So on a weekend, I can get six hours. So three hours Saturday, three hours Sunday, just before she wakes up. Then on top of that, there are things that she wants to do. So we call it selfish time. So it's like you do your selfish thing and I'll do my selfish thing, which is work. And then we'll reconvene, say, at noon. And then that's going to give us over the course of a weekend. I mean, we end up clocking, like, at least 10 hours a day together. So now we've got 20 hours over the weekend where it's just me as a husband totally locked in. It's me and her. And because we're building the business together, even though I'm working a lot, we're together. We're in the same space with a shared dream and objectives, and we are working with each other to make that work. And then on the weekends, I get the work done that I need to get done to outpace my competition. It's probably the right way to think about it because this is a competition. And then we have a line at noonish, and then it's just husband and wife thereon after. And we found that works perfectly. Now we don't have kids, so that's part of the cheat code. But when we stick to that, then it's like she's emotionally fulfilled. She feels connected. And I've just said, you're going to feel disconnected before I will. So you are the canary in the coal mine. If you ever tell me I need more of your time, I'm going to give it to you, no questions. Even if that means the business slows down. Even if that means that we lose a multimillion dollar opportunity. Don't care. My marriage is my most important thing. She's always respectful. She's never going to, like, suddenly be petty and be like, I just want to see if he'll give me the time, even though I Don't care. It's like she only says it when she really means it and then I respect it every time she says it. And we've been able to manage that for, with the exception of that one eight month period, she's only had to say that to me twice. So the first six years I was a mess and then the 18 month period and the rest of the time it's been, I won't say perfect, but it's been very high functioning.
- [17:03]
C
It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back.
- [17:16]
Chris Do
When I started my motion design company blind in 95, there was a lot I didn't know. So I tried reaching out to other business owners and professionals for help. What did I find? Many saw me as competition and those who didn't weren't able to give advice that made sense for my line of work. Thankfully, I was able to find my first and only business coach, Kier McLaren, who mentored me for 13 years. I also learned that my story isn't unique. Many entrepreneurs feel like they're left to figure everything out on their own. It's why I created the Future Pro membership, the community I wish I had when I first started. And I'd like to invite you to check out all that we have waiting for you inside@thefuture.com pro.
- [17:57]
C
And Rebecca, welcome back to our conversation.
- [18:01]
Chris Do
It's a weird question. I'll stay on the marriage thing for a little bit longer because I'm asking mostly in a very selfish way here. How would you rank yourself as a husband on a scale of 1 to 10, where you're like, I'm showing up as the best husband I can be. And then how would that be different than how she would answer a question without you in the room?
- [18:17]
Tom Bilyeu
Well, she would certainly score me lower than I would score myself. This is where people just have to understand the architecture of the human mind. So I see myself through my frame of reference, looking back at me as I think she ought to look at me versus how she actually looks. What would she give me? She would probably give me an 8 or a 9. And I would say I'm as close to perfect as a husband is ever going to get. I really mean that too, by the way. Anything else would be false modesty because I have taken us from clipping coupons to making a ton of money. We've had a thriving emotional relationship for 22 years. Marriage been together even longer than that. The times where she has had problems, I've addressed those problems literally at a Foundational personality level. The times, times where I'm driving her absolutely crazy. I don't say, hey, you're being unreasonable here. I'm like, I want to get to the point where I can say to you your position in a way that you're like, yes, you understand me completely. And so we had this one big area of friction around. It was right after the eight month thing. And I came back to her and I'm like, I'm here, I'm present again. But she had that scar tissue and I just could not figure out what was going on. And she kept saying that, I want my husband back. And I'm like, but wait, your husband is back? I've solved all these problems. I'm a better man for it. I'm stronger, stronger than I've ever been. I mean, really, like, it was the hardest period of my life, full stop. That is a true statement. So I come out the other side, I get everything back. I get my workload back in line. I was so stressed during that period, I was getting vertigo. Like, all of my physical problems go away. Like, I'm back, I'm back. And there was something still that she couldn't put into a way that I could understand. She just, I want my husband back. I want my husband back. And so I was getting like, really annoyed. And I'm like, man, I just went through like the Herculean test, like the literal Greek mythology, Hercules has to clean the stables and all that stuff, like nobody could do it. But he pulls it off and oh my God. And so I feel like I just did that. So finally I'm like, I'm really trying to articulate back to her what I think she's saying. And so finally I'm like, okay, I think I have it. Is it. When you say you want your husband back, is your husband defined as somebody who can receive and broadcast love? And she said, yes. And I was like, okay. So I'm like the very thing I'm taking pride in, how strong I've become, how impervious to emotion, that I just look at what needs to be done and I do it and I grind through and I find the essence of where I'm trying to get to, that's the very thing that's driving you crazy? Yes. Okay, got it. Now, when you say I want my husband back, you want me to be soft. You want me to receive your love in a very. All my armor is down. You want me to broadcast love to you in a really soft way. Kisses on the neck, eye Gazing, playfulness. None of the brute that's had to just tear through business. I think of myself as a warrior in a loincloth with a sword, covered in the blood of my enemies. And that makes me feel good about myself. But that is not making you feel like you have the husband that you married who was playful and silly and had not yet been scarred by 10,000 failures and challenges from the outside world. She's like, yes, yes, yes. Like, cool. Now I get it. I had a hard time translating those words. But now that I get where we're at, now I can give you what you need. So anyway, I read all of that and I say, man, I don't know if most guys have the self awareness to get here. They either stay stuck in the overwork or when the wife's like, I need my husband back. And you're super proud of yourself and you're like, what the fuck? This chick is crazy. So I think a lot of people derail in those moments, and I didn't. But my wife has to put up with a guy who thinks of himself as a warrior holding a sword and a loincloth, covered in the blood of his enemies, and has to, like, consciously step out of that and be in husband mode. So I do feel her pain that I have gone way, way out of my way to slather myself in armor to be a fighter, which is not who she married in her defense. So I think she would probably give me an 8 or a 9. But I think all men should act like I act. God, that's so horribly egotistical, but nonetheless true.
- [22:42]
Chris Do
Act by how you act in terms to be able to take the armor off and be vulnerable and there, or to go out and get the blood on the armor.
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Tom Bilyeu
All of it, okay? All of it is the thing. You have to be able to switch gears. You have to like. The thing in all of that that I'm most proud of is I ask myself, what do I have to do to be successful in business? I have to get a lot tougher. I have to be willing to say hard things, hear hard things, face all the difficulties that come with business, get punched in the face over and over and over, fail a lot, fail publicly, be embarrassed. Like, all of it. All of it. All of it. Cool. Then as a husband, you have to go, I can't write her off. So however she's approaching this, even though the way that women process the world is so alien to me that I'm just like, whoa, okay, I accept that it is true. But if I place a value judgment on that, which is what most men do. Women act this way, and it is crazy. Now you have a problem. So I was like, okay, women act this way. It's very different than how I process the world. But I'm going to step inside her shoes without judgment, and I'm going to look back at myself and try to see what I look like from her perspective. Which is why I was like, oh, you want somebody who's soft in an embodied way. Like the literal antithesis of what I've just spent the last 20 years doing to my psyche. I see that. I don't judge that. That is what you need. Cool, then. Now it's my job to develop that gear. And so Lisa and I do a lot of relationship content. And when I really think about, okay, how have we been able to last 22 years in a high functioning, emotionally connected relationship? It's all that complexity. And so I know better than to trust that I'm actually a 10. Like, whatever my wife tells you, if she says I'm a six, that's probably closer to the truth. I don't know if you had her give me a score, but I would guess it's somewhere around there. But if it wasn't and it was lower, I'd be like, okay, I'm open to that.
- [24:29]
Chris Do
Yeah. I can't help but just say this, that a lot of what you're saying so aligns with the way I think of myself. So I'm having, like, a strange outer body experience where you're articulating things I've said in different ways, obviously, but that I felt. And here's the one thing I have to ask you, because I'm trying to look at myself now from a different point of view. Right. Is when you say our marriage is our priority. My wife, if she were here, she's like, it's not your priority because you want to go and read and you want to go do workshops and you want to create content and you want to just push, push, push. And we don't need that anymore. We have enough. Let's chill out. Being vulnerable here, it's something that we're still working through. It's a big struggle because my description to her is like, the guy that you fell in love with is the guy who was going to make sure we're financially okay to defend off enemies at the gate. So I always tell my wife, the person you married is the person who would provide financial, emotional, physical security for you. And that's what I became, actually. I didn't become that. I was already that person. I think just like how I think you see yourself, blood on your hands, and then now we're at a time of peace and prosperity, and they want you to hang up the armor and get fat and lazy. And then they don't know that sometimes an enemy can come in the gates, and now you're not prepared, but they want someone else now because they feel like that part of their life is over. And so if you continue down that path, the feeling that get that's communicated to me is, I want to be your priority. And I don't feel like I am your priority. And so how when you say that, I'm just curious, what are some things that you can do? Put it in very tangible ways where you act as if that is the priority.
- [26:07]
Tom Bilyeu
Okay, so first I have to establish what I said to her at the very beginning of our relationship is this is before we were married. I said, you can ask me to give up virtually anything, and I will do it, but you can't ever ask me to give up my ambition. I don't want to know who I am without my ambition. And so when you look at somebody like Kobe Bryant, he went from winning basketball championships to retiring and then winning an Academy Award and was moving into a totally different phase of his career, but with the same level of intensity and pursuit that made him great at basketball. And anybody that marries that type of person and then thinks that there's a finish line, they don't understand the fundamental architecture of that person's mind. So I am not a person who is going to ever be chilling around the house and feel good about myself, not and be the person that I am. I am a pursuit machine. I was put on this earth to pursue. Now, as long as I'm pointed at things that are honorable to pursue, it's great. So my wife has understood from the very beginning of time that, hey, this is who I am. It's the one thing you can't ask me to give up. But now, to your point, what are the tangible things that I do to make sure that I'm actually prioritizing the marriage? It was. What does that look like for you, Dear Lisa, my wife. Define being there for you, and then I will do those things. And so a big part of it just was. There is a certain number of hours that we need to spend together every week where you're not pursuing while we're together. By all means. In the morning before I wake up, while I'm doing my selfish Thing go crazy, pursue. But once we come together now, pursue being the best husband ever. And so in that we find things that we love doing together. And I won't lie, here are ways that I blend this. I build a video game that's a big part of my identity. Storytelling, game creation. So I decided about five or six years ago that I was going to try to get my wife into playing video games. So that way I could be having fun because I love playing them. I could be sharing something with my wife because we play co op competitive games so we're on the same team against other people which, whether it's pickleball or video games, I don't care. But get something like that if your both personalities line up with that. And it also allows me to like, oh, there's a new game that I want to try out because I need that for the gaming side of our world. And so just for a while was like, hey, I'd really love it if you would try this video game. And so we ended up exchanging. She wanted me to be present when she went shopping and to be engaged and not like, if you see where women will park their husband, they actually have in Korea, I think they're called husband. Like parking lots. Yeah. So I said, cool, I'll go shopping with you. But like, as if this is my everything. And so when I go shopping with my wife, which admittedly now is not very often, but back in the day, like, that was a retail therapy for her, was like a thing. And so we would go shopping and I would be looking for clothes that I found exciting that I wanted to see her try on. I was right outside the space giving her advice. When she would come out and be like, oh, I like that. No, I don't like that. Oh my God. You could combine this with that. What about those shoes at home? I mean, I was in it. And so first of all, that allowed me to trigger that part of myself that's like, okay, if we're going to play the My wife fashion game, I'm going to use my pursuit mechanism. I'm going to be the greatest. Like, I'm going to look at rad stuff. I'm going to find things that she thinks is dope. And so I'm going to fully engage myself while I'm here not looking at my phone, not anything. This is about her also. Gentlemen, I don't know if you have more men or women in your audience. Gentlemen, women like to be the center of sexual attention. So if you've ever wondered why they pose for photos in a way that would make you feel ridiculous. It's because they love to be looked at like that. So when my wife's trying on clothes, I'm fully engaged. I'm trying to like, what are the things that legitimately, I'm like, ooh, you look good in that. And so now she's like, she gets to be the center of that attention. And I'm legitimately engaged. And so now I'm like, I'd love it if you play games with me. And she's like, oh, my God, you were so amazing when we went shopping. And, yeah, I'm going to play. I don't want to play that long, but I'll play for an hour, whatever. And then over time, because you've got to be smart about it. I'm getting her to play things that I know she's actually going to do well at. And then I'm infinite patience. When she first started, I wasn't trying to win. I was trying to make sure she had a good time. Because I'm like, if I invest in this in the long run, and so infinite patience, playing games that I know that she'll like. We're on the same team. We're fighting for the same thing in game. If I find a good weapon, I'm going to give it to her. All the things to make her feel special and seen and appreciated and all that. And then she likes playing. And so you do things like that, and everything's a compromise, but you find ways where it's like, this is really a shared activity. Like, we played pickleball together the other day. It was so fun. So finding things like that where you're like, I love this thing, and this meets my wife's definition of this is quality time. And now all of a sudden, it's awesome. But if you don't get them to define what they think meets that need, you're going to have a problem, because you're going to think you're meeting it and they're not. So you get that defined, and then you find ways where you can both have a legitimately good time doing it.
- [31:30]
Chris Do
I'm going to air this one. For folks that are in a relationship, you did a very logical, I think, male energy thing, which is to tell me what it is that you want, and I would be happy to meet you there, as long as she can tell me I've done these things before. And then my wife will say something like, no, I just want you to figure it out. Because me telling you robs me of the reward that you're prioritizing this because the argument comes back. No one tells you to show up to work and hit certain goals. You tell yourself that, and you figure out what's needed and you look for gaps because your mind is focused on that. And I think what she's saying to me is, I want that same intensity, the energy to solve the problem. Problem of what do we need to do together versus what is it you want? And going on the checklist, you know, the way she communicates it to me, it feels like that's what's happening. It's very robotic, analytical thing. And do you have any thoughts on that?
- [32:21]
Tom Bilyeu
A whole bunch. So, one, I would say it's something I call trapping people in their values. So I'm going to ask her, what are the things that she believes and that she values? And then we're just going to go down the line so that I can get her what she wants, but I'm going to get her to define it. So let's say that I start saying, okay, do you think men and women are the same? No, I do not. Okay, cool. In what ways are they different? Let's say she maps those out. Okay, so do you think that men need to act like women with their wife in order to please them? Yes, I do. Oh, interesting. Okay, cool. So define how you want a man to act around his woman. I want him to be soft. Right. The whole thing that my wife did, and maybe she doesn't say that's being, like, female. Whatever. I don't care what it is. I just want to know how she's defining all of this in her mind. Now I start asking all these questions, and she's going to be like, oh, my God, you're already robbing this of the romance. Chris, come on. Like the whole point of this was for you to figure this out, not make this, like another one of your marketing videos where you're figuring out how all the things work. You're just turning me into an algorithm. This is so grotesque. And so you're like, okay, remember when we said that men and women are different? So here's the reality I must understand before I can act in a way that you're going to find useful. So please forgive me my foibles, if I could accurately read your mind, I would. But the reality is you have superpowers. As a woman, I literally don't possess them. I'm not trolling you. I'm not trying to wind you up. I'm trying to use the only skills that I have at my disposal in order to be amazing for you. So if you can forgive me that this process will be a little clunky, but it's going to result in the thing that you need. And by the way, if what you really need is girlfriends that you can hang out with, that just totally get it, and there's no translation. You guys all see the world the same way. Please don't feel that that's a betrayal of me or our marriage. I get it. If there's a feminine energy that you need that I'll never be able to give you, I totally understand. In the meantime, though, I want to get to the point where I can say back to you what you want from me in a way that you're like, yes, you understand my position perfectly. Now, let's say as we walk through all that, she's like, no, for real. I can't enjoy it unless you figure it out. Cool. You don't have a problem with that? You don't expect the algorithms to tell you exactly what works and what doesn't. Part of what has made you you is that you've been able to look at human behavior as it marries with an algorithm. Go, oh, I know how to do this. Turn your wife into that. So your wife now becomes an equally thrilling a B test of I'm going to. Honey, make her. Bring her in on it, Honey, I'm going to try all these things with you. What she really cares about, whether she's going to be able to articulate it or not, is this look where she's like, oh, shit, he's really looking at me. He's really trying to understand me. He's really trying to get to what I want. And then if it's like, okay, cool, here's a deal. For your birthday, for our anniversary, for Valentine's Day, whatever her big ones are for a random Friday, maybe every Friday. Like, every Friday, I'm going to figure out from you what the thing is that you most want this week on that Friday. And that's going to be the game. And so every morning, you put a question up on the fridge, or every morning, if you guys wake up at the same time, you ask three questions and you make it a game, right? I only get three questions each day, but by Friday, I'm going to know the thing that would make you feel. And now she's like, oh, damn, he's really doing the thing now. Look, some of that she might be like, no, I hate this game. This is Boring, whatever. But then you try something else. You try something else. You try something else. There ultimately is a thing that she wants as long as you make her articulate what it is so that, you know, I just need to know that I'm actually making you happy. If you make this a guessing game that only a woman could pass, you're going to be forever frustrated. That's not fair on you. It's not fair on me. And so one question that I will ask my wife a lot is, do you think I'm upsetting you on purpose? If the answer is yes, then we have to address that. If she's like, no, I don't think you're upsetting me on purpose. Okay, is it maybe that I lack a certain skill? Yeah, it probably is that. Okay, what skill do you think I lack? And then you start going down. So she's like, it's exactly this. This is the exact problem. Okay, cool. Here's how I want to address it. The only place that is game breaking is if she secretly, though, can't articulate it, wants you to be a woman. Because then you can't win because you don't process the world in that way. And then one thing Lisa and I found is there's just been a series of videos where it will be a big breakthrough for her when she's like, that's what you were trying to say? Yes. So I'll find a woman that will say the exact thing I've been saying. Like the one that we got recently was this woman goes in this really awesome diatribe about men, like quests, they want to know, I need to do this thing, and it's going to make you happy. And then I will go do that thing, no matter how hard it is. Now, once Lisa heard a woman say it, she was like, oh, so I'm actually not being a pain in the ass when I say, could you go get me a glass of water? You actually want to go do that thing for me? Yes. And so. But I need you to tell me, I would like a glass of water and I would like you to go get it. Then I'm like, ah, word. I got this. And so that was a big breakthrough for reading the Female Brain. Was a big breakthrough for both of us understanding just that the female brain works in a different way. So it's going to be a whole host of things like that, but you have to have a shared vision of how people ought to act and a shared vision of how men and women differ and how each of you differ and then what of those differences we're going to tolerate and which ones we're going to be like? You know, I can't that part of it. I need you to shelve.
- [37:56]
Chris Do
That was a lot. I wasn't planning on going down this relationship thing, but I felt like I was talking to Amir for some of this conversation, so that was super helpful to me. Just out of curiosity, what is your favorite game to play together?
- [38:08]
Tom Bilyeu
Video game Fortnite. That gamers can take Fortnite's existence for granted is crazy. As a game developer, I will tell you how hard every bit of polish in that game is obscenely difficult. It is optimized to be one of the most fun, competitive shooters you're ever going to play. I've played a ton of them. It's unbelievable.
- [38:28]
Chris Do
Thanks for checking out this episode with Tom. As you heard, we went deep into the personal side of success and how it impacts relationships. But that's just the beginning. Part two is coming your way in a couple of days. In it, we're going to switch it up and go deep into the mindset and strategies behind creative entrepreneurship. And trust me, we don't see eye to eye on everything, so you don't want to miss it.
- [38:53]
C
Thanks for joining us. If you haven't already, subscribe to our show on your favorite podcasting app and get new insightful episodes from us every week. The Future Podcast is hosted by Chris do and produced and edited by Rich Cardona Media. Thank you to Adam Sanborn for interview Intro music. If you enjoyed this episode, then do us a favor by reviewing and rating our show on Apple Podcasts. It will help us grow the show and make future episodes that much better. If you'd like to support the show and invest in yourself while you're at it, visit thefuture.com and you'll find video courses, digital products, and a bunch of helpful resources about design and the creative business. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time.