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- [00:00]
Chris Do
I think there is the perception that anyone can call themselves a coach. And I think that's part of the problem. There are very young, inexperienced people who have undergone little to no training, who call themselves coaches and they go and launch courses through the power of the social reach that they have in the coaching industry.
- [00:17]
Jewel Kim
They'll try to tell you that you don't have to know anything about the person's industry or about what they do for a living. They'll try to tell you that all you have to have is the skill of coaching. And that's. That's only partially true.
- [00:32]
Chris Do
The idea of like ethical responsibility, I think transcends just the coaching business. Anyone who works in a professional service space who isn't accredited or governed by any body, we can drift into these areas where you don't have to like be recertified every single year to make sure you're doing best practices and your license can't be taken away from you because you don't even have one.
- [00:51]
Jewel Kim
I'm coming up on four years of being a coach and I will say that there is one area you really need to have expertise teas in that can be hard to have if you're only 21. And that's just.
- [01:05]
Chris Do
Hey, everybody, what's up? It's Sunday. So this is unusual for me to be recording any kind of content. But my friend Jewel Kim, who has been a guest on the show many times, had this idea that we would create some content based on many conversations that we have but aren't ever recorded. So she thought, let's do this unfiltered thing where just her and I talking about whatever's on the top of our mind. In true to form, she just woke up from a nap and I just got back. I'm unshaven, unshowered, and this is how we're going to do it. So luckily this is not Smell O Vision. This is mostly just video and audio only. So, Jewel, what did you have in mind? Is anything that's kind of top of mind for you?
- [01:45]
Jewel Kim
Well, right now some of the stuff kind of swirling around in my head are stuff around accountability, responsibility and respect. And I've had. Okay, so that's one. Sorry, that's one piece. And then there's the other conversation we've been having over this past week about like our ethical and maybe financial responsibility to clients. So I keep thinking about it and I've kept like teasing it apart, you know, I've had a conversation with one of my clients and I find myself, I'm likely to have to have this conversation again with yet another client. So the idea of like the ethical responsibility, which I think a lot of people don't have those ideas associated with life coaches because you know how a lot, a lot of the perception out there is, you know, scam or they're just out to take your money and. Yeah, so it's, it's been really interesting. Yeah. Plus I had coaching this past week about some of the stuff that I've been going through.
- [02:43]
Chris Do
You know, I think there is a perception within the general public that anyone can call themselves a coach and I think there's dedicated body to certified coaches, but I can call myself a coach and someone else can call themselves a coach. And I think that's part of the problem because there are very young, inexperienced people who have undergone little to no training who call themselves coaches and they go and launch courses through maybe the power, power of the social reach that they have and they call themselves something and people sign up and if you had one or two bad experiences with some so called coach, I think you can come to a reasonable conclusion. Like it's really hard to tell the real from the fake, the scammers from the people who really want to contribute to your personal professional development. And the idea of like ethical responsibility I think transcends just the coaching business. Anyone who works in a professional service space who, who isn't accredited or governed by any body, we can drift into these areas where you didn't have to go to ethics training, you don't have to like be recertified every single year to make sure you're doing best practices and your license can't be taken away from you because you don't even have one. And I think this is an idea that a lot of people can I think, sink their teeth into. So why don't we pick it up from there?
- [04:00]
Jewel Kim
That certainly sounds good. I do think with life coaching it gets tricky because like you said, anybody can call themselves a coach. And even among the different branches of coaching there's so many different types. So I don't think people necessarily may expect a business coach to be like a certified business coach. But it does get questionable a lot of the times with just the two biggest problems being someone who's ultra young. So like someone who's 21 who's like, okay, I'm going to be a life coach. And it's not that I necessarily think that that can't be done. It's just that in the coaching industry they'll try to tell you that you don't have to know anything about the person's industry or about what they do for a living. You know, the, your client, they'll try to tell you that all you have to have is the skill of coaching. And that's only partially true. Let's see, I'm coming up on four years of being a coach and I will say that there is one area you really need to have expertise in that can be hard to have if you're only 21. And that's just experience with people. You have to understand how people work and how they think. And when you're 21, I feel like you barely know yourself, if at all, let alone how other people are, how the world works, why people think the things they do, why do they do do the things they do. And it gets really questionable. You know, to me it doesn't pass the sniff test. Now I think there are some plus sides here because people who are younger, their mindsets tend to be more open. I think they tend to think more things are possible. So the cynicism or being jaded hasn't set in as fully as, you know, someone who's maybe my age, like in the 40s, but otherwise it's just, there's a lot of blind spots, man. And then the other area with someone who's not being certified, just period. I find that that gets really tricky when I watch them coach. Cuz I'm like, that person doesn't know what they're doing. They can't spot the real issue. That's the heart of the issue. And it's, I'm not saying that I necessarily can see it like right off the bat either, but I've been trained in a certain line of inquiry to help get there, to help that person identify, like what's the thing that's causing everything for them. And I tell you, it's like if you've ever had bad coaching, you never forget the experience. It's such a deeply, like an intensely personal experience. It's just like why people, when they go to therapy and you'll hear people say that it's taken them a long time, they can't find a good therapist, or they've tried it a couple times and then they'll just write off the whole experience. They're like, therapy's not for them. And it's because of the same reasons. Now it's weird because to be a therapist you do have to be licensed. You had to have gone through several years of training both in the school and in the field. Right. Like in the clinic. And yet you still have people of varying levels and people who may not be able to connect to the client, build rapport, help them feel seen and understood. And still it's, it's kind of the same issues, like helping them get to the root of the problem.
- [07:16]
Chris Do
I see a lot of parallels between coaching and therapy because a lot of people, and this is strange because therapists have to go undergo rigorous training in peer review and they're often checking in with their mentors. It's something that they can lose their license for. Yet we know like different coaches, teachers and therapists, even if you've been trained and accredited license, there's all different kinds of, of therapists, all different kinds of coaches. And just, it could just be chemistry, like it didn't work for a number of different reasons and, and that some of it I think the, the client has to take some responsibility for. But you know, we were talking about this where I don't know if we can say, but there was somebody that you think maybe I'm just wasting my time trying to help this person because I don't think they're actually applying the things that I'm talking about. And you were kind of like conflicted because you're thinking this is not going to work. I think I just need to let them go. And I think it's in that conversation we were talking, I said, maybe you don't have to let them go, but you do. I think you need to tell them somehow. Right. And what did you decide to tell them? How did you resolve this? And I'm curious how it's going.
- [08:31]
Jewel Kim
Well, I think when we had the conversation, I was like, I think I need to have a come to Jesus moment with this person. And I believe you asked me like what I might say and then you gave me your suggestion. So how that went was I couldn't, I decided not to wait because she had delayed her regular coaching session with me. And I was like, I need to, I need to get in here. And so here's what I was seeing, why this was an issue is that I've been working with this person for over two years now and she clearly gets some value out of the relationship. She gets a lot of emotional support. She gets guidance around sort of the foundation of being, you know, such as setting boundaries and how to figure out her priorities, etc. But every time it comes to really enforcing boundaries, there was always a miss here. Anytime it came to doing something hard, like doing real work, it would just be disappearance. There would be silence. For example, I had asked her to start a Pinterest account and then never heard back for the next two months. And that was like a consistent theme here. I would. I'll say, okay, what about this? And she'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll do it, I'll do it. So that was the first thing, is to constantly say yes to everything I suggested. So just being a yes man, I'm like, how is this realistic? I know I have a pretty good look into your life and I just don't think it's possible for you to actually do everything you're signing on to. So then it becomes a question of trust and credibility for me. But number two is the silence. To me, that's the real killer in any relationship is I don't know where you're at with something. There's no follow through, there's no communication on your end saying, I can't do this or I don't want to do this. You know, it's not that I expect her to do it. I know. A couple months back we had a conversation about how. How whenever you see something as hard you go out of communication, you just stop communicating. And I've already expressed how that's difficult for me. And so this has been continuing. And now I question whether I'm the right person to coach you. And I don't know if I should continue taking your money is what I said. And so at the time, because it's kind of late at night, she said, okay, okay, thank you. She said, I'm seeing. It's not okay for me to just be silent or to never respond. And I was like, yes. And again, I don't expect you to do everything. I just need you to tell me where you're at and whether you will do something or whether you're like f off Jewel. I have no intention of doing that. I think that's a dumb idea. I'm like, that's fine. Great. Now I know where I stand or where we stand. So then fast forward three days later. It was. It was an entire. I'm not going to say it's a meltdown, but she had some strong reactions about it. It was a little bit tricky, but we ended on the same page and I think we're moving forward.
- [11:33]
Chris Do
What was the meltdown?
- [11:34]
Jewel Kim
Can you say she was brave enough to express to me that at the time my lips were saying what I just told you. I said, but she heard you're not worthy and I'm going to leave you. I Don't want to work with you anymore.
- [11:50]
Chris Do
How did she process that?
- [11:52]
Jewel Kim
What do you mean?
- [11:54]
Chris Do
Well, you said one thing. She heard. I'm not worthy. And so what is her response to interpreting the message like that?
- [12:03]
Jewel Kim
Really strong emotions. You know, there were tears. There. There was. It. It was a mix. You know, it was a mixed bag. Like, it was a hard moment, of course. But can I just say, like, I'm so impressed by her because she had the mental fortitude to step back and to take a look at my character and to know that what she heard probably wasn't what she heard. Like, even look at the way she phrased it, she was like, I know you said something else, but this is how I heard it. So she was taking responsibility for her reaction. And so she took a step back and she said, I think what you were trying to tell me was this. Am I right? And I said, 100%. 100%. And so it was just the idea. I was like, you know, just to remind you, again, like, as a coach, as an ICF certified coach, there is a. Like, a board of ethics, like, there is for therapy. And so when you take on this credential, you're assigning yourself to say you'll be bound by these ethics. And one of the ethics in coaching that I think people don't know is that you not sell yourself as, like, Rent a Friend. You know, like, your client wants a certain goal achieved with you as the partner. And if you see them veering off the path, like, this is what you have to do. You have to have a conversation. And this is not the first time we've had this conversation. It's been multiple times through the. To your relationship, and it's. It's not easy. So there is one thing she said which I thought was such a beautiful lesson for anyone who might ever hear this. She was saying, you know, I want you to know because you're talking about money. She said, I pour my heart and soul into the work I do. I bring so much love to the work I do. And I pay you from the money I earn, not from the money that my husband earns. This is my money, and I'm giving it to you. And I was like, oh, my God. You know, in a way, what you're saying is it's love, right? You're. You're giving your clients love. You're receiving love in return, and now you're giving me that same love. And I told her, you know, all I'm looking for is for you to honor that exchange and make sure that you're honoring that for yourself as well. Because at the point that we keep coming back to is you're giving me the love, but where's the love you would show yourself? That's what's missing.
- [14:26]
Chris Do
I'm curious, are you trained, required, or strongly encouraged to return money or cancel clients where it's ineffective? Or maybe they've. It's turned into potentially a codependent relationship or a dependent one?
- [14:43]
Jewel Kim
There is a strong recommendation that you end that kind of relationship and. Or have them seek counseling or therapy. The ideal situation is if someone is in a codependent relationship or you see codependent signs. Number one, this should never happen in either scenario, therapy or coaching, because both of these professions are there to give you the tools to support yourself. You know, to not be the constant caretaker and to not be the person who's always going to pick you up and put the pieces back together. It's like you're here for a reason, to know how to do this for yourself at some future point. That's the general guidance that we get in our world of the icf. So ideal world is they would have coaching and also have a therapist to work through these issues in tandem. And like, super ideal is if they give permission for the coach and the therapist to actually talk with each other, but they don't always do that.
- [15:42]
Chris Do
Do you think that someone else in your shoes, a quote unquote coach, would have acted in a similar way? Or do you think they would just keep the money or. Or maybe turn them down in a way that it's hard for them to process?
- [15:59]
Jewel Kim
You know, I really hate to say this, but given all the coaching communities that I'm in, I would say that someone. It's like less than a 50 chance for other people to handle this. In my coaching school, there's a personality assessment that they put out and consistently so. It's got seven levels and level four is the caretaking personality, of which I, of course, have a lot to, you know, all of us do. But consistently as coaches, that caretaking level will be the highest and the strongest. It's not the highest and strongest for me, but it used to be. So I consistently see feeds like posts on Facebook or other forums where people are struggling with not. Not even something which to me, this is relatively complicated. Let's just say a client is late or a client hasn't paid, they haven't received payment upfront for a client, and the work they've done with the client and they're already struggling I'm like, if you can't even handle something so basic as being paid up front and on time. To me there's like a very, very low possibility that a coach in the same kind of situation I'm in with something that's looking so, smelling a little bit like codependency or someone who's not living up to their end of the bargain. Yeah, they're not going to say something. I highly doubt it.
- [17:14]
Chris Do
It's so, it's not even driven by money. It's driven by their caretaker personality that says I, I somehow can, I can save the soul. I can, I can make this work because it's giving them something like somebody really needs me right now and I can't turn my back on them.
- [17:28]
Jewel Kim
Yeah. And a fear of conflict, a huge fear of conflict. That plus what they think is the identity of a coach. And I fall into this trap all the time. Well, maybe less so these days, but in the first couple of years it was all the time for me. So I've noticed that there's this like weird like effed up vision we hold in our heads of how we're supposed to be as a person because we're a coach. Like we're somehow supposed to transcend all the, and be better than other people. And yet I find amongst coaches, avoidance, fear of conflict, people pleasing are extremely strong. Extremely. Because of that caretakerness.
- [18:10]
Chris Do
Where do you think we should take this now?
- [18:12]
Jewel Kim
I think we should take it to you because I feel like you have a lot of caretaking attributes yourself.
- [18:19]
Chris Do
Sure do, little child.
- [18:21]
Jewel Kim
Oh, there we go. And I think that's what people would find surprising about you because of your online, your public Persona. You come off like super ruthless. Right. People have called you the razor blade. And, and then to really get to know you and then to watch you with some of these friendships you have in your life. And I was like, oh, caretaking?
- [18:43]
Chris Do
Yeah, I, I've struggled with this for a long time. I didn't know that's what I was doing until I went to see my therapist, Joan. And Joan told me it's pretty classic middle child stuff here. And she, she, before she did any work with me, she wanted to know my parents history, our family tree and structure and birth order and all those kinds of things because it gave her a psychological profile, an emotional profile probably too. So when she told me I was a caretaker mom, that's not me. But then when we replayed instances from my childhood and also in my professional life, the reason why I came to her was because I was realizing. I realized something, that I was more concerned about employees who disagreed with me and their mental welfare than my own mental welfare. And so I would acquiesce. But I did it in a way that I can see now was passive aggressive, where I'm like, okay, I don't want you to do that, but I'm not gonna get into a fight with you right now. Just let water go under the bridge. But then it would build up. It would build up a lot of resentment inside of me. And I. I'm not one to say, like, I'm in the church of Brene Brown, but I think there's a lot of truths to what she says. She says, choose discomfort over resentment when it comes to boundaries and speaking up. And I try to, like, remember that every single time. Like, choose discomfort. It's uncomfortable for me to tell you, no, I'm not going to pick you up. No, I'm not going to give you this thing, and, no, you can't stay here, because that little bit of discomfort would then save our relationship for me growing into a state of resentment and in which I will one day just disappear and say, you know what? I don't really want to hang out with you anymore. I don't find you to be interesting, or I think you take advantage of me. And I've learned. I've had to. You know, for me, when I learn a concept and I feel it's true, then I start to take action against it. And so the person that you. You meet today, probably in the social space, because I did inner work before I went on social media, is that I have a better sense of who I am and the boundaries I want to set. That doesn't mean that people can't push on those levers intentionally or unintentionally. And the old me comes out, and then the new me has to say, wait, wait, wait, are we feeling something? How do we want to respond to this? Because I also don't want to respond to every single little thing. I feel. It's too petty. And sometimes I think that's where it starts to be this snowball effect where you let one transgression go by and then another and another, and then, wait, wait, wait. And now they're just not little transgressions anymore. Or maybe it's just death by a thousand paper cuts and eventually you just get tired of people. I'm like, no, I don't want to be around you anymore. And the way I do that is I recede into the background is, don't call you back, I don't respond. It's not like I need to have a big my own come to Jesus conversation with folks.
- [21:30]
Jewel Kim
I think I'm a little surprised, like surprise and not surprised because that's where we would handle it differently.
- [21:36]
Chris Do
Yeah, yeah.
- [21:37]
Jewel Kim
Cuz I think I would have a conversation with someone, even my friends, like, don't get me wrong, probably like five, ten years ago, I was a person who would just like cut you out of my life. Would not say anything that's more sudden, I think, than what you're describing, which is like a slow receding away, like a fading away. But yeah, I think I'm a little surprised because I think I see you as someone who would just speak your mind.
- [22:04]
Chris Do
Well, I would say that more so today. Well, let me just say this. When I coach people who've had a lifetime of one habit, one thought process, one belief that when presented with a new idea, very few people can actually just completely Change their life 180 degrees, turn it all upside down and just divorce themselves of the old idea. And I always tell people, I'm glad that this new idea serves you, but don't be so quick to say I'm cured of whatever ailment. And I would ask people who had drinking challenges an addiction to alcohol, they said, so you're cured? And they would say to you, pretty, like almost to the person, you're never cured of alcoholism. You're just trying to get through it day by day. And you know that if you start to tell yourself you're cured, you can slip back down that path really quickly. So the way I look at is my caretaker tendencies haven't gone away, they're just there. And I have to be mindful it's still there and exists. And I've done a much better job of speaking up, telling people how I feel, despite how it may make us uncomfortable. Now here's the classic irony of all this stuff. I have an easier time telling people that I know, like, and trust what I really think versus strangers. You would think it would be the opposite, right? Like I don't know you, you don't know me, so it don't matter what we really think of each other. So I'm going to tell you where I stand on things. But in fact, it's the people that I feel most close to that I can really sit there and say, you know what, that thing that you do really bothers me. What I would say is, I'm not going to let you get away with that. Whatever that Statement is, however, innocuous. Innocuous it feels I'm going to have to say, no, you can't say that. And please don't say that about me. I'll give you an example. Okay. I remember one time my wife and I were talking and Otto is our oldest son, and he's 20, turning 21 soon, and he's very high achieving. And my wife's like, why are you so thrifty with giving him praise and saying to him you're proud of him? I said, well, I could make a greater effort. And then I started to really think about this and, like, why I don't do something. And then I was having a conversation with our mutual friend Annalee, and I said, you know, I feel really uncomfortable saying I'm proud and I want to tell you why and why I'm really kind of tight on it. I said, usually parents say that to their children, but I don't want to say it. And then she was like, whoa, wait, wait a minute. You mean you're not proud of your friends? I'm like, no, what right do I have to be proud of them? And so this is like shocking to her. Well, she goes, well, I'm proud of you. I'm like, well, let me explain. So we got into this kind of really big, deep, emotional conversation and allow me to explain this. And Jewel, I'd love to get your perspective on this. I said, if I say I'm proud of you, that means there are times when I'm not proud of you pretty clearly. And I think most parents use that phrase as a means to control their children. You might not think of it like that, but oftentimes it's, oh, you got a great job, you went to school and you studied the thing I wanted you to study, and I'm proud of you. Or it could be like, you gave money to charity. I'm proud of you because that's what we want you to do, or you turn the other cheek. I'm proud of you. So I said, part of loving someone unconditionally, unconditional means without condition. So I love my children. I would lay down my life for my children and there's nothing I would not do for them. And I've been telling them this since they were like, little children barely old enough to understand the words. And the thing that I would tell them, like late at night, I would say to them something to the effect of like, I want you to know that I love you and that there is nothing that you could ever do to make me stop loving you. And you don't need to do anything different than to be you for me to love you. And if anyone else ever tells you this in your life, it is completely untrue. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart. I would say that over and over and over again. When I told my therapist that this is what I was saying, she goes, just don't put any question marks on it. Because I used to say, do you know Daddy loves you? She said, turn that into a statement. It's not a question. Dad loves you. And so I keep thinking, if my children don't get good grades, don't go to a good school, don't do their homework, get in trouble with the law, get into all kinds of things, I'm so proud of you because I'm proud that you are my. My child. And so when I explained it to her like that, I think her head was, like, about to split open. It's like, I don't want to be proud of them. I am proud of them always. And there isn't a time that I'm not proud of them. And I said, also, I don't say I'm proud to my friends, because what did I really do to claim that I'm proud of you? That's like a parental thing. And I think without people realizing is violent language. Because you're saying, I have power over you, my opinion, my authority, my approval matters to you. And I'm going to say it. I'm proud of you. Now, it's a very innocent thing. So if this is what you say to your friends and to your loved ones, don't let my crazy ideas about this. But I really do think about the words that we use and how the words shape our emotions and capture our version of reality. And they record stories in our brain. And so that's where I just sit there and think, like, why don't I do something? There is a good reason, at least for me. And maybe I'm radical about this, maybe I'm strange. But I'm curious about your thoughts, Jewel. And I'm curious from our audience. When you listen to this episode or in the comments, let me know if you think I'm crazy. Or maybe this is a point of view that more parents have to have. I heard this thing. I think it was said by the yogi Sadhguru, and he said something like, children are born perfect. It's their parents who mess them up. And so the best thing you can do as a parent is to do as Little harm as possible. It's impossible not to do harm. But he says, do as little harm as possible. Because those innocent statements that you say as a parent, like, oh, why can't you ever be on time? Or why are you so clumsy? And it's just a little moment of frustration in your life. You don't really mean those things, but your child process these things in a whole different way. Just like when they do something good and you're like, I'm proud of you. Like, oh, that's what I need to do to get dad to like me, to love me, and I need to do more of that. And what they do is they start to externalize their own self worth to you. And when you aren't around, like, either you pass away or they're in a different circle. They're looking to someone else as a surrogate to replace you. And then someone else will have control over your children. And I don't want to do that now. I don't want to get into the whole parenting and all that kind of stuff, but I have a lot of crazy philosophies and reasons why I do.
- [28:26]
Jewel Kim
What I do, man. Like, I can only imagine what people are going to think when they listen to this because I still remember the first time you expressed any version of this. I think it was three years ago and you were talking about this unconditional love. And I remember like wanting to cry. And I think because like most people, I don't actually feel like my parents have unconditional love. In my mind, I'm thinking if I somehow effed up or murdered someone, ended up in jail or prison, my parents would disown me is what I'm thinking. And yet I struggle because my parents have told me almost every single day of my life that they love me. Do they love me? There's no doubt. I just question whether it's conditional or unconditional. So the first time I heard you say this, like, I almost bawled my eyes out. And I was like, oh my God, I want to cry. And you're like, how come? And I was like, I don't know. It's, it's, it's so much because I had never actually personally known somebody as a parent who was bold enough to come out and say this. I'd never witnessed it with my own eyes. And it really triggered like this super strong reaction in me. So when you said to Annalee or whoever it was that it's not really something you say, like the whole, I'm proud of you to Your kids, let alone to somebody else. I think many people don't understand that the history of saying that phrase, it's, it's generally reserved for, within your family, especially from parent to child or those who are very close to you, people who had a hand in your achievement or your progress in some way. Right? So there's, there's like a very tight association by implication if you use that phrase. And yet I have plenty of strangers like out there, people who just like my vibe, they see me on online, they say it, and, and so there is like a hierarchy associated there of some kind, like what you're saying, which I think a lot of people don't get. But this other piece that you were just describing with saying I'm proud of you kind of implies there are moments that I'm not proud of you. I don't think a lot of people think about that. And when you are raised in a culture like many of us, or maybe really all of us, where parents may unconsciously telegraph that love is conditional upon performance of any kind, I think that's where it gets really hard. It gets so hard we don't understand that our children are like plants and we are the sun for them. So every which way we turn, right, they turn with us. And if we're not careful to show them that they can stand on their own and that the sun is always there regardless, you end up with most people out here running around living their lives and being triggered with stuff. And I still feel like strong emotions coming up when I listened to you about, about this and the last bit when you said you, you're somebody who thinks about the words you use. That's me too. Again, I know this isn't all people. We all communicate in different channels. So some people are more about the non verbals, less about the words, but the words really mattering, like they really do, especially in how they shape our reality, like you said. But also because when you use the wrong words, you can inadvertently shift your emotions and what you're feeling. So, so for instance, somebody I was coaching yesterday, he kept saying he has to have like a emotional reaction to something. And I was just like, but what emotions? It's very, it's very vague. Like to me that doesn't really tell me much. So what emotions. And to have granularity in the words you're using, which is the frustration I have with some of my friends where they're like, yeah, but that's not how people normally use the, the words. You know, that's not what People normally mean like, okay, but so then how do we get on the same page of communication? How would you handle that kind of response?
- [32:28]
Chris Do
Which response?
- [32:30]
Jewel Kim
Someone saying, that's not how people normally say that or that's not how people normally mean the words?
- [32:35]
Chris Do
Well, I would say, how do you, how do you know what is normal? And who defined normal? I would just ask more questions. And while you were speaking there, I'm pretty sure there's going to be a couple of people who are listening to this or watching this video who are going to get really upset for a lot of different reasons, or they might have a strong emotional reaction to the kinds of things that we're talking about. Anytime you talk about parents or children, it is going to open up a divorce box to a lot of unresolved childhood trauma either way. And I'm not going to tell you I'm any different because when I see organizations take really good care of children, I get really emotional because I was, I was a. I'm really happy for those children, but also kind of pining for my own childhood. Like, I wish I had this when I was growing up. And so we feel a little bit of self pity there, I think, and sorrow for our own childhood. But I would ask everyone to try to do this thing. Write down 10 things that you hold to be true, 10 beliefs that you have, whatever they might be, just write them down. And then do this thing that I think I read in Austin Kleon's book and show you work or steal like an artist, or actually it was in my interview with him, he said, you know, try this thing where you do this genealogy of your ideas. When he was trying to do steal like an artist, he was saying like, who first said this to steal like an artist? And just he went and traced it back as far as he could. Then he found like the mother or father of the idea. But if you have beliefs, just retrace like, how did you come to believe this thing? It can almost always be traced back to your childhood. And then try to see where it came from. It came from a book, a TV show, a sibling, a parent, something like that. And then ask yourself this question, was how reliable was the source of information? What was it in response to? And if it weren't in your own childhood and somebody had said this to you as an adult, would you still believe this? And I think this is where everything starts to become unraveled. Right? So, Joel, when you said most people don't think like that or that's not normal for people to think like that. I'm like, how do we even know what normal is? You have finite experience. You might know 10, 12 people well enough to say, like, well, that's normal. And then the rest of the people are just assumptions, I think. And even if it were normal, we're bad. Should we not do this anymore? Like, hurting people, I think most people would agree is not a good thing to do. But if the entire country wants to hurt people, do you say, well, well, that's what normal is. Let's go do normal. So even if it's normal, which I doubt it is, if it normal is bad, should you do that? And I think, no, that's what. What it means to have conviction and what it means to have a moral code that you live by.
- [35:19]
Jewel Kim
Shoot, man, you're making me think. That would have been the perfect response to a lot of the comments I got on my TikTok and Instagram. So I made a video about how you should probably not say, I'm proud of you. Like, it pisses people off, but people are unable to articulate why. So this is me going down the rabbit hole after one client session. Because I was like, oh, interesting. Somebody has a huge problem with this. So then I go research it, and I'm pulling apart, like, all the threads. I'm like, okay, I get it now. So I make a video is very interesting. The responses I get, they're like either on this end of the spectrum or this end. So the first end being people who are like, oh, my God, thank you for explaining this. I could never put into words why it made me so angry when people said that to me. But then on the other hand, you had people who were like, I've never had a problem with this. No one has ever said me, you know, said to me that there was anything wrong with this. Like, maybe you. Maybe it's a you problem. Is the last comment I got, like, in the last week, like, basically, I'm crazy over sensitive. And I was like, okay, one, I never said I have a problem with this. I'm just saying maybe if you are interested in having easier relationships with people, perhaps not say this. So that was. That was really interesting. I don't know. It was. I didn't expect something. To me, it seems so innocent to spark so many comments like, you're crazy, never had a problem. It's a you. It's a you thing.
- [36:47]
Chris Do
Yeah, I can see why they responded like that, though. I haven't seen that post in particular. But if you said, here's why I don't like this phrase. And I'll tell you my reasoning for it versus you shouldn't say this, because then now it's like, well, now you're criticizing me how I versus you should. I think it's a small but very big difference between those two things. So I say, if somebody wants to say they're proud of me, I'm good with it. I don't feel offended at all, because you know why. And here's the dark, ugly, unfiltered truth. I don't really care what you say. That's the bottom line. But I know a lot of people do, and they can be sent in a lot of different directions. First of all, let's explore these two possible outcomes. Okay? Somebody comes up to you that kind of knows you, and you did something that they may or may not have been involved in, and you have great success, like, I'm really proud of you, Jimmy, or Mary. And the first reaction is like, wow, thank you. But are you taking credit for what this outcome is? Is that why you're proud of me? Or do you think I hold you in such esteem that I care that you be proud of me? Or only my parents say I'm proud of me and I care what they say, but who that for you. And then you start going down all kinds of other emotions and reactions. So a lot of them are not good possible outcomes. Or we can just say we'll just ignore it. It's not really a big deal. So that means you've wasted words today. I don't want to waste any words. Especially as an introvert, I want to say things that matter, that have impact and are intentional in line with what I'm really thinking. And if I say something wrong, I'd like to know why. And then I want to make adjustments. I don't want to keep doing it just because it's a good habit that I. Or it's a habit that I have. And so a lot of times when people say things like paying someone a compliment, and I would say to them, you know, that's a violent thing you just did. And they're shocked that I would say that. And then I would have to go through this whole rabbit hole and explain to them, like why. And he said, if you're curious, you should watch this video on this, and you'll see. And in fact, the person I'm talking about is our friend Rich. And he was saying something like, I'm proud of them for doing this, or whatever it is. And I explained to him and then he was just giving me a hard time. He goes, chris, I'm very proud that you told me that I shouldn't be proud. That wanker.
- [39:04]
Jewel Kim
So good.
- [39:05]
Chris Do
Yeah. So I'm like, whatever, whatever. Hold on to your beliefs. So I think the, the thing that a lot of people have a reaction to is you should or shouldn't. And then all of a sudden like, wait, wait, who are you telling me to what to do? And it's funny because I always think like this, where if someone says something you don't agree with and you're not a big fan of theirs, just move on. Why bother even giving a comment? But I think everyone feels so not entitled, but they feel it's so necessary to express your opinion on every single thing. That we get pulled into these polarizing conversations and debates because it gets our emotional juices flowing. But I don't know if it's horribly productive if I don't agree with something. I just don't watch it.
- [39:47]
Jewel Kim
Yeah, I, I did question why so many people felt this strong urge to argue with me on my video. I'm like, why didn't you just scroll by? And then I'm turning that back on myself too, right? Because I'm like, why do I feel the need to defend myself? And I'm like, well, some of the time I'm just asking a question to see if there's been any thought process in their response. Most of the time, no. I think what's interesting is when I ask a question and then they make it personal, I'm like, what the hell was that? You know, like. Like the person who was like, well, it sounds like a you problem based on some question I asked him. And I was like, okay, well, sir, it sounds like you're not interested in having like a real conversation, so have a good day. And. And like, that's about it. But let me rewind back to something you said. You don't have a problem with the phrase because you're like, basically, I don't care what you say or what you think about me. I have a different response to that. So when someone says they're proud of me, I don't really care. But it's because I'm weighing their intent. So I'm looking at their intent behind the words. And like, most people are not as careful of their words. I understand that. What are they trying to do in this moment? I think they're just trying to show me love. And I'm a huge believer in just letting the love in, take it in.
- [41:02]
Chris Do
Yeah, I think I would. I would probably take it the same way you took it, which is. Okay. Thanks. Appreciate it. And sometimes, you know, I don't have to sit there and chop words because people don't think about things that. That in that same insane detail. So I'm like, thank you, and we just move on. That's all. Hello.
- [41:26]
C
Now. Yeah, but they're right in the middle of this vid.
- [41:31]
Chris Do
Okay.
- [41:32]
C
Yeah, I'll. I'll tell them. This video is brought to you by the Future Future Accelerator is all the best parts of coursework, community and coaching, all brought together for a single purpose to help you make a living doing what you love.
- [41:46]
Chris Do
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- [41:49]
C
With over 100 video lessons and resources.
- [41:51]
Chris Do
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- [41:56]
C
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- [42:24]
Jewel Kim
What was the thing? I think you mentioned something you wanted to talk about at the very beginning of this.
- [42:29]
Chris Do
Yeah, I can. I can talk about that. But is there more to this that we want to pull apart?
- [42:34]
Jewel Kim
Not more to this, but there's potentially a bridge. Because I was. You know how I was telling you I was thinking about accountability, responsibility, boundaries, and then the latest thing about values. Remember, like how I'm telling you there are some things happening where when a certain type of thing happens, something I perceive as weakness, and then I start to lose respect. So respect is like the. Really? Yeah, that's. That's really hard. So I asked my husband at lunch, and I was like, how would you define what respect is? And he was like, what the hell? Just Google that. I don't know how to answer that. It's like a hard question.
- [43:11]
Chris Do
We use it, but we don't know.
- [43:13]
Jewel Kim
Yeah. And I think that's the issue with most of the things that we are faced with as challenges today.
- [43:19]
Chris Do
My guess at that would be to hold you in high regard, high esteem, and if you lose that, then I kind of look down on you or I don't see you as an equal anymore.
- [43:29]
Jewel Kim
Okay, that's interesting. I think the distinction of what you just said, the very last bit, I don't see you as an equal anymore, wasn't really in my picture of the understanding. But I think that is what happens with a lot of people. So here's.
- [43:44]
Chris Do
I can respect the way somebody does something, but not respect them. Like, I can respect that you want to live your life the way you want to live it, or to eat the kind of food you want to eat or talk to people the way you want to talk to. Because I'm not king of the world. No one elected me. And I'm not looking to have that kind of dominion or that control or power over people. So I believe that there can be. And we're probably going to get skewered for this is multiple versions of air quotes, truths. And both of our realities can be real and both of them can be false until there's like objectively verifiable data. Then we just don't know. And. And I have a way of living and thinking and beliefs that drive me that have led me to a place of contentment, of happiness, of success, that if people want to learn that I'm happy to share it. But if something else works for you, I should say you do that thing. The classic example is I'm very much soft spoken, inbound, building content and getting people to gather around saying, chris, we want to give you something. And say, well, that's fantastic. I must be doing something right at this point point. And there are people who are like, no, you can't be passive about this. You must be proactive. You must go and reach out to people in an outbound way and just ask for opportunities all the time. Those are two polarizing, like polar opposite ideas. Inbound versus outbound. I think they can work in harmony. One is not better than the other. It's whatever works for you. But I live my life a certain way. And so if people want to learn that, then I want to share that thing. And then I find that there are people who have tremendous success doing outbound. Like this person I've mentioned to you, Neil Dhingra. He's literally a. Give me a. Give me a sales list. I'm just gonna call people. I'm a dm, every single one of them. I'm gonna leave a message on all of them. And he's very, very successful. He's made a lot of money. And just the mere thought of that just makes me want to like, crawl back in bed and it's like, wake me up when it's Wednesday because I don't want to do that. And probably for him, the kinds of things that I do make make him like, dude, that's infuriating. Why would you sit around and wait for it to happen? It's just two different ways of existence. And that's why I can respect the way that you do something while not having respect for you. And usually it's because of this idea of accountability and AKA broader term weakness.
- [46:04]
Jewel Kim
Okay, so what's the difference between respecting what someone is doing versus respectful for someone? How does, how does one gain respect from you, Chris, as a person, then?
- [46:16]
Chris Do
Shoot.
- [46:17]
Jewel Kim
You set yourself up for this man.
- [46:19]
Chris Do
Shoot. Well, I, I don't think I set myself over this. But now you're asking a really hard question. I, I would ask this first question, why would anyone need to, to earn my respect? What does it do for anybody? I admire certain people. Should I answer the question that way? Who do you admire? Why?
- [46:37]
Jewel Kim
I don't know. I feel like you're dodging the question because, like, can we be in friendships or relationships with people where we knowingly or we know that they don't respect us? I feel like that's a ton.
- [46:48]
Chris Do
Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, I don't think, like, true friendship can exist from a place where you don't respect each other, but it takes a while for us to understand. For example, if you meet someone who looks totally different than you, comes from a different culture, uses different, different ways of saying things, your initial reaction is to associate them with someone else or some group of people. And you might assume, okay, those people talk like this and act like this, and they're not trustworthy, they're not ambitious or driven, whatever it is that you want to put it on some form of like low key racism or prejudice. Let's just soften the word and not call it racism, but call it prejudice, okay? Because it doesn't have anything to do with race. And you put them in a category so you might not have any respect for them. The example would be people who wear very baggy pants, men who like, let it hang around their waist. And we see all kinds of people, Asian, white, black, Latino, all kinds. So you look at them, you're like, your pants are really low, I can't take you seriously. But that person could be the CEO of a company or who could have graduated from an Ivy League school, whatever metrics you want to use for success. And you think, well, that person deserves my respect. So I think initially when we encounter people, we jump to conclusions. About who they are. And I don't think it's necessarily horrible that we do that because it's a way of using our brain efficiently. So we're not sitting there processing every single person on an individual level. We're making decisions if we should fight flight or what's the third one? Some other Freeze. Freeze. Yeah, so we don't know if it's one of these three that we should do. So that's a shorthand. Like, we process things, but when we get to know someone, I think then we say to ourselves, I was wrong. My assumptions about you were X, Y, and Z, and they're totally different. Like, people might see one video of me and think, what an arrogant a hole who has. He's just talking out of both sides of his mouth, who doesn't know what he's doing. And they may watch another video or another video, or they might see me in the street somewhere and have a real conversation with me. And they're like, wow, Chris, I was wrong about you. And at first, I appreciate that it takes a lot for especially men to say I was wrong and to then approach me and to stay in that long enough to say, my bias got the best of me. But I stayed in it because I was curious. And then it led me to this place. And I was brave enough to say this. I really do appreciate that. But on the other side, I was thinking, why do we have such strong assumptions about people and so little information? You know, I. I drive people crazy when I say this. They didn't have enough data points. One or two things should not be the entire thing. It's like two shreds of evidence that you think, okay, I'm done. Not hung jury, but it's like, unanimous done. You're guilty, you're innocent. And that's where it gets really dangerous. So I think there's a natural period of time in which two strangers get to know each other, and they may swing back and forth of giving, taking, receiving, respect. And at some point, they. They arrive at a place where they can really say, I don't really respect that person.
- [49:42]
Jewel Kim
I. I think this is one of the hardest questions like, I've ever started exploring, and I don't have it fully figured out yet. I think what you're saying is interesting because I started googling this today. I started asking chatgpt to help me, like, tease out some of these nuances in the thinking, and it kind of says the opposite of what you're saying. Or. Or maybe it's the same because it's saying that you can not respect someone's actions and yet still respect them as a person. Perhaps your respect for the overall person lessens because of what you see them doing, and yet you're still able to hold respect of them, the big picture of them as a person, while acknowledging your own disappointment in seeing the actions that they're choosing. And I thought my reaction in the moment was, I think that's a more enlightened. Like, that would require a fairly enlightened person to draw those kind of distinctions. I don't know that I'm there yet. It's. It's me struggling with my own judgment when I see my friends acting in a way that does not align with my own beliefs or my values. And then there's this thing of my boundaries, like, how much of that do I want to be around? And now if we're talking about respect. So the interesting bit when I was asking my husband was respect, and I was describing some of the scenarios that I've been seeing over the past, like, month, and he was like, I think what you're talking about is really admiration. And I was like, oh, same words I used. Yeah, See? And I feel like if you ever meet Jason, you would like him. He probably thinks similarly to. We're all three a little bit. You know, we have stuff in common. I was like, admiration. So I take a step back, and I look at it, and I was like, oh, I see. So when we're talking about the meanings of words shifting, right? Like. Like how they're actually defined in the dictionary or in psychology versus how they're used in the mainstream, this is one of those words that has a split here. So if you look in the dictionary, it means to have full awareness and appreciation for a person's humanity. And I was like, okay, I don't think I ever really lose that for anybody out there. Not even, like, criminals. So then I asked ChatGPT. I was like, okay, but I don't think this is how people normally use the word. This is not what we mean. And I give it an example. And so then it comes back with something that's actually pretty good. I thought it said it's. It's conditional. And I was like, oh, ouch. It's conditional. So there's this intersection between your values, your boundaries, and then maybe like, a resonance. And that intersection there in the middle is respect. That's how we're typically using the word. So there has to be some alignment between all three of these areas for us to then say, because What I told ChatGPT was, I feel like we generally use the word in regards to seeing someone doing something that we think was hard, something that is deserving of recognition or is noteworthy. You don't say, I respect you for doing your laundry. I'm like, that's the bare basic, like, to life. But, you know, one of my people that I coached yesterday, he's coming up on a year of having gone to the gym, working out five days a week, every week, and I was like, I have mad respect for you, man. That is crazy. Like, I love that. So then that had me dialing back, and I was like, okay, so what about the moments when I feel like I'm losing respect for someone? It's exactly like this thing with ChatGPT. So the reason why I'm talking about this is because I had a coaching session where I was the one being coached, and I was telling my coach that I think it's like me losing respect for someone is primarily rooted in a conflict in values. I don't think she agreed with that. She was saying that it's. The conflict I'm experiencing is because of my filters. Like, my filters are different from other people's filters. And I'm like, okay, isn't that what values are? Like? Like, at least part of that. You don't look like you fully agree.
- [53:49]
Chris Do
No, I do agree.
- [53:51]
Jewel Kim
Okay.
- [53:52]
Chris Do
And as you described this, because I've done zero research, I've talked to zero robots, I was trying to map out what you said. Like, did I describe myself clearly? And is this really how I think? If not, I look at it like, everybody gets to live their life the way they want, by their own rules and their values. And somebody might look at me and say, you're not a very ethical person. I might look at them and say the exact same thing. So there's no universal, like, this is. This is it. It's heavily based on context and what's going on. So I think when we say, like, I look down on somebody, that means I think I've lost all respect for them. And so there are different. Different criteria for that. I can respect that they're hardworking, they're a good friend, that they take care of others and they're generous, but there's things that they can't or don't seem to take accountability for. And so for me, it's. It's. I'm very flexible with this kind of stuff, and I give people lots of latitude because I know I'm an imperfect person myself. I do dumb Stupid things. Hopefully less as I get older, but I still do dumb, stupid things all the time. It's not fair to judge myself in such a way that every time I mess up, I'm like, oh, you're such an idiot. You don't deserve respect or love or appreciation or admiration. And so I think the same. It's like, what is good for me must be good for others. So I think there's a large latitude there. So I think, rephrasing my statement, I think I, I respect the fact that people have a different way of moving in the world, that their individual actions. Sometimes I have challenges with myself. And when they do enough of them that hint at a core value, then something feels funny inside. Like, I don't know if I want to open the fullness of my heart to this person because there's something misaligned in values. So I must be very enlightened, Jewel, because that's what you said. Tongue in cheek, everybody.
- [55:39]
Jewel Kim
How convenient, man.
- [55:41]
Chris Do
Yes, you. You are correct in describing my exact belief better than I could have.
- [55:45]
Jewel Kim
Okay, so let me describe this coaching session I had with my coach towards the end. Like, if you've never had coaching, you're listening to us. It generally starts with, what do you want to talk about? And then towards the end, it has to move to some sort of conclusion, which is not always the case with therapy. This is a major difference between the two modalities here. So coaching is meant for you to like, take action. Like you realize something or even if you don't, it's meant for you to take action and move forward in some way. So at the end she asks me, what do you want to do? And I said, I think I need to reevaluate some of the relationships in my life and possibly take a step back. And she goes, why? And I said, because it's now been long enough that I believe I have a fairly clear picture of someone. Like a. A well rounded picture of people in my life. It's not like I've only known them for like two weeks. You know, I'm seeing a difference in values. And if you've been listening to this and you don't understand this bit about the boundaries, the boundaries are, I don't want to be around that anymore. So this is where it can get a little bit murky here. Because in coaching, and I'm sure they tell you this in therapy too, when you're a therapist, you cannot be attached to someone's outcomes. So if a client comes to me and they're like, I want to do this. I want to do this. And they never take action. You are not supposed to be attached to whether they take the action. And so for me, I'm not. It's more that I need them to have honesty. So honesty is probably my top value. And my coach was like, yeah, like, that's like the first word I think of when I think of you. And she did a really good job in pointing out attachment, though. So attachment to my values. And I was like, but don't I get to be attached to that? So the irony, I think, is I felt like she was judging me for making the decision I made. At the end of the session, she's.
- [57:36]
Chris Do
Like, don't you be so judging, Jewel. Wait, what irony?
- [57:41]
Jewel Kim
Yeah, so me saying, I just don't want to be around certain kind of energies. And by energies, I mean, it's really a difference in values. Like, I want to be around people who are honest, who are brave enough to be honest, who speak up and ask for what they want, who will try to help themselves instead of relying on me for 100% of the help, always, like, that's what I want in my friends and my family. And I don't think, like, she took exception to that for some reason. So, yeah, I was like, ah, okay. Attachment and judgment. But we're human, right? Like, that's part of human nature.
- [58:16]
Chris Do
See, I respect that you get to have your own worldview. And if you wish to set up boundaries and say, I don't want to be around that, I think that's your prerogative. Because I think when I judge you for that, then I say I hold a superior position, that I have some enlightenment over you. And to say, like, my way is better, I think it's a dangerous position to take.
- [58:36]
Jewel Kim
I mean, it can be. You know, I think it would be different if I had come to her and said, these are my views and I don't want to be around this kind of energy. And yet I'm still having some kind of problem. So in my mind, a coach and a therapist, they share the same mission, where they will point out, like, the problems and where you say, this is what you want, and yet there's a gap here. There's some sort of discrepancy. But for me, there was no discrepancy. I was like, this is the conclusion. And I. I think this is the right next step for me. And to have her question that I was a little bit like, what just happened? That was weird. So, yeah, so perhaps it was attachment and Judgment as well. See, it's. This is what I mean, though, as a coach and probably for therapists, this attachment to the identity of what that means if you're in those professions, like, you're somehow supposed to transcend this.
- [59:28]
Chris Do
Yeah, I see. I think I have a very specific way of looking at the world. Like, here's what I want to eat. Here's how I want to move my body and use energy. Here's how I want to nourish my mind. And these are the kinds of relationships I want to build. And this is how I want to parent my own children. And this is the business I want to build. And this is how I want to show up online. This is how I want to dress and send signals out into the world. And I'm okay with someone else saying everything you said is totally not for me. I'm like, I'm good with that. But then I say, for the people who want to have what I have or think what I think and eat what I eat and wear what I wear, I'm gonna help you. But like you said, from any teacher, coach point of view, if you have misalignment between what you express your beliefs or goals and outcomes are, but the actions are incongruent with that outcome, then I think the relationship is such that I must say something. The degree will probably depend on what the stakes are between the two of us, but I feel compelled to say something, because if you want to do these things, then you gotta just let go of some old ideas. So I'll share one thing with you. I think I'm okay with saying this. One of my buddies, Rich, who produces our podcast, who most likely his team will be editing this very episode and releasing it, I notice a pattern. And Rich and team, if this feels uncomfortable for me to disclose, please just put that out there. I think he has a very high moral code. He's ex military. And I think what I understand from people in the military is in the world of military life, everything works in a very binary way. It's right, it's wrong, you're on time, you're late, you're neat, or you're sloppy. There isn't a lot of gray, and I think that's beautiful for a lot of people. And ex military people then sometimes struggle with the idea that civilian life is anything but black and white. It's not binary at all. It's like super gray and murky, and they have a hard time adjusting to that. And so in the military, you are going to lay your life down for someone and you're not going to leave somebody behind in the battlefield. And they require that kind of care for each other so that they don't abandon one another. And so your word means a lot in the military because you're honorable or you're dishonorable. It's kind of really black and white. So in civilian life, people say all kinds of weird things and they change their mind and. And you can get really upset because you're still using that framework or that mindset from the military. And so it's kind of like led into a lot of ways of rich thinking about things. Like, for example, I find that every time I talk to him about a business or a client idea that's new and foreign to him, his first kind of reaction, his default is, no, that's not going to work. That's problematic. And I'll tell you why. And I'm like, okay, that's fine. And then we get into like fashion, which is seeming like so disconnected from business. And I say, hey, show me what you're looking at. And so he'll show me a bunch of clothes that look almost just like what he wears, but slightly different. And he's asking me, chris, I really need help with learning how to dress. I'm like, cool. But everything I show you say no to, and everything that you show me is just 10 degrees different than what you already wear. So I start to feel like the disconnect, like you asking me for help. So I kind of have to just ask you to just try. I don't want you to buy it, but just try. So I tell him, sit in the discomfort for a little bit. And the first word that comes out of your mouth should not be no, it should be, let me see what happens. So we did this weird exercise. It's almost kind of like really strange. Like we're two junior high kids on a sleepover. Although he didn't sleep over, him, I would send him to a room and there's a full length mirror. I said, try these things on. And he's bigger than me. So he's like, how could I possibly fit into any of your clothes, Chris? I said, well, that'll be my problem, wouldn't it? Okay, again, all that negativity, let's see where it goes. Okay. So I would go from my closet over to him, like one piece at a time. Because I was looking for things that I'm like, these are oversized, loose cut things that he could possibly wear. Lots of things won't fit. I didn't give him anything that wouldn't fit. And the simple thing of putting some, some bracelets on him, some beads or whatever, the first time he put it on, I could tell you looked at it like, no. I said, remember, just give it a try. And so he's able to do that. And then I come back, and in between going back and forth from where he was into my bedroom or my closet, he had enough time to sit in the discomfort that he's like, oh, this isn't bad. Actually, this is kind of cool. I like this. So he went from no, no, no, no to like, wow, I'm. I'm shocked as heck that I'm even liking this right now, Chris. So from baggy pants with suspenders to loose fitting coats that look like you're a child wearing them, it's just a different cut with drop shoulders. And he just walked away and he sent me this really lovely message. And he goes, chris, I don't know. I don't know exactly what it was, but I think you opened or unlocked something in my mind this weekend, and I just wanted to thank you for it. And I'm liking this new frame that I'm looking at the world because I kept telling him, man, I'm not super intelligent, but I can spot a pattern when I see one. And you keep demonstrating the exact same pattern. You say no before you say yes. I said, flip it around. If someone presents a business idea for you and they're eight dumb ideas but two good ones. Look for the good ones and don't even listen to the bad ones. Totally. Okay. But you let the bad ones be so loud that you cannot pick up what's good anymore, and you're missing the opportunity, and that's going to hold you back for the rest of your life. So we can play with business and we can play with fashion. But, like, you've heard me say this before. How you do one thing is how you do everything. That's a Massimo Vignelli line. So it's like, if you can open your mind about fashion, then you can probably open up your mind about business and possibly even about people. And so that's kind of where we netted out on that.
- [65:31]
Jewel Kim
That's really cool. Also, can't wait to see Rich's updated wardrobe.
- [65:36]
Chris Do
He's gonna look like me.
- [65:41]
Jewel Kim
I. When he said, well, first, how am I gonna fit your clothes? Or like, I'm bigger, whatever, he said, dude, I cracked up because that was my literal first thought. Because I had the same first thought when you did the Same thing with Drigo. I was like, aren't they, like, a foot taller than you? Like, literally, you're like, stopping.
- [65:58]
Chris Do
Wait, hold on, hold on, let me. Dro's not six eight, all right? He's six four. He's probably actually six five. I think he lies. He's one of the few people who lies down instead of lies up. Drigo's six' four. I'm five' eight. So that's not quite a foot. I mean, he's six' eight. I'm like, yes, it feels like a foot. I give you that. And there are things that I own that he can try on. And he's tried on. He's like, huh? Okay. But yes, I do have things that are not all, like, slim cut, you know, for 29 inch ways, because we're built very different. Even though Rich and I are very similar in height, he's got a much bigger, pronounced muscular chest. So those. That's not going to fit. And his waist is a little bit bigger. He's just got bigger meat on him.
- [66:40]
Jewel Kim
Bigger meat.
- [66:42]
Chris Do
I don't know how else to say that.
- [66:45]
Jewel Kim
Dude. This is. This is the unfilternedness. Bigger meat. I'm gonna hold up this picture because this is something that I've been showing my clients this week. So I think what you described really aligns with this. It's not exactly the same, but there's like a very similar pattern here. Yes, right. Like the people who constantly say no, who are looking for the reasons why something won't work instead of why it might work. For me, it's this constant question of my clients in the last, I don't know, three weeks, month. But just in general, like, the entire lifetime is a perpetual focus on what they don't want instead of what they do want. So a lot of people asking me for help around finding their purpose. And when I ask them, okay, so what, what do they want? You know, what all their answers are is what they don't want. So then I ask them again, and I keep asking them again, and then we reach a point where I'm like, you realize all your answers are like, what you don't want. And while that can be helpful to some degree, it's not really going to help you laser in on, like, the thing if you're truly seeking that same energy that I feel motivated by every single day. And I think all of these are really interconnected, right? The habit of saying no before. Yes. So maybe that's the exercise. Like one of the things that we have the audience give a try, right? Instead of your perpetual no. Like your habitual no. Instead, replace it with, why don't I just give it a try? Because that was one of the lessons. My mentor coach, she has this book called Life's Little Lessons, something like that. Her name is Marianne Franklin. And one of the things in there is every day for a month, just say yes to everything. As long as it doesn't harm you, just say yes. I remember reading that. I was like, oh, that seems a little scary, but I did it. Yeah.
- [68:34]
Chris Do
And you're still alive, Joel?
- [68:35]
Jewel Kim
I am, yeah.
- [68:37]
Chris Do
A lot of people like to ask something like, why? And just add one extra word. Why not? Just add the word not. Why not? Hey, you want to go out and try this super spicy, uncooked food? Why not? Hey, you want to listen to this kind of music that's a little weird. Why not? And just go for it. Now, Jewel, I know you and I can talk literally for hours at a time, but I'm thinking this might be a good time to conclude this very first episode of Unfiltered 1, in which, if you all let us know in the comments that you. You want to hear more of these kinds of conversations and let it meander, totally unstructured and to kind of see what kinds of things itch our brain, then let us know. Comment the word unfiltered, and we'll do more episodes like this.
- [69:25]
Jewel Kim
Oh, my God. But are you actually going to respond?
- [69:27]
Chris Do
No, I won't respond in ordinal. Remember, I'm like, unfiltered. Why? Why the hell are they saying that, Joel? I have no freaking clue. But I will end this with a con. Like a quick question for you. Okay. I mean, it's a question, but I'd like a quick response. When we ask ourselves, like, what is it that we want? I'm going to just build on that. So I'm going to put you on the spot. I don't want you to overthink this. Don't give me some middle the fence kind of answer. Middle of the road, fence straddling answer. When you have prospects, clients come to you as someone that needs your coaching. What do you want from them? As in, what is the ideal student showing up or the ideal client showing up as? What do they do? What do they think? How do they behave?
- [70:15]
Jewel Kim
The ideal student looks a lot like me. They're an immigrant or the child of an immigrant. They feel a strong sense of responsibility of their own life. They know that they own their life, and they're ready to do something about it. They're usually pretty smart. They are frustrated by something going on in their life. For me, when I say it's really like, me, like my earlier self, a lot of the time, I think I've spent most of my life just really feeling uncomfortable with myself. I felt, like, terrified to put one toe out of line because it's like, oh, my God, people will judge me and then what? So I wasn't moving up in the corporate world in one of my jobs, had no idea why. Now I look back, I'm like, of course. Makes so much sense. So that's the ideal person for me who's like, they have some idea of where they want to get to, but they don't know what's. What's getting in that in their way because they're lacking a lot of people skills. So if you're saying, don't be middle of the road, it's the people who are immigrants lacking people skills. And they just want someone to tell them, like, give them the map and be like, I'll break it down, I'll break it down. I'll tell you what to say, and if that person tells you something, I'll tell you how to respond. Because that's what I wanted.
- [71:26]
Chris Do
I'm gonna take my own question, throw it out there, because people do ask me oftentimes, what is it that you look for in someone you want to mentor or someone that you're going to coach? Okay. I'm in this stage in my life where I need to be mindful of how I spend my time. Money is good. I'm not going to turn money down, but I don't find it particularly fruitful, fulfilling to take someone's money and to coach them through something. And as we said earlier today, the line I would use is, hey, I endeavor to be the best coach that can be. So in order for me to best be the best coach, I need you to be the best student. And here's what the best student looks like. And if you can honor that part of the agreement, we're going to do great things together. I can. I can almost guarantee it. And where this always breaks down, almost always is you come in it with great intention, you spend the money, but you actually don't commit yourself to doing the work. So in a weird, weird way, I just want somebody who's totally fed up, just like you, Jewel, who's frustrated, who has a ginormous problem that if they can't get fixed, it's going to ruin their personal life. Their business life or something else in between. And to come to me with an open heart and open mind to say like, I've tried a lot of dumb ways. I'm tired of doing that. I'm ready to do what you say. And we can move mountains together in a very short amount of time. Because nothing would make me more excited to pour into someone and see them do that. I mean, I'm electric or electrified or whatever it is. I'm through the roof with energy and adrenaline. Like I am ready to do the next thing with you because you just kick made your butt and all you needed was a little piece of information. Maybe it was permission or the words that you need to say. And if you just say it, you're going to do great. And that's why people ask me how long I'm going to do this job for. This job of educating this general public. I said for as long as the messages keep coming back, that because of X I was able to achieve. Why I just want more of them to be my. My students, my mentees, my clients. And that would give me great joy. The problem is people will ask for advice and not take it. So in the world of fashion, there are three gentlemen in particular who've been asking me for help. And I'm starting to get really fed up with all three of them. I don't want to mention names, but I was like, why do you keep asking me for my help? I tell you what you need to do and then you resist, resist, resist. I'm not even getting paid for this, Jewel. So I'm thinking I got better things to do. Luckily for each and every one of them, it just took enough of that kind of resistance for them to have a small breakthrough. But I'm telling you right now, Jewel, the next person comes to me, I'm like, nope, we're not having this conversation. You must commit. I don't want to hear any lip from you. If I tell you to do this and you don't do it, I'm done. That's the agreement. Because I. I don't have time to waste on this. That would be it.
- [74:06]
Jewel Kim
I think I'm gonna add something like that to my contract.
- [74:10]
Chris Do
Yeah, you should.
- [74:11]
Jewel Kim
I have this extra page to my contract, which is not normal. It says what to expect when working together. And there's like all these things of what you say you're gonna do, like you're agreeing to do. And you have to initial each one of them and, yeah, I think I need something like this. What you're talking about?
- [74:30]
Chris Do
I don't think it even needs to be an extra page. You could reduce all the other words and just bring it down to this. Because without this, everything else is moot. If you, if you want to search Carlos Segura's letter to clients, the agreement, right. And you can do some version of that. And it doesn't have to be that complicated. You have a problem, I have answers. It's something like that you pay me and then you do the work or we cannot work together. It doesn't have. Yeah, I bet you with a couple of rounds of GPT, it's like, I want you to do the most violent, aggressive version of this agreement and keep it as simple as possible. You'll come up with that agreement really quickly. And I think wouldn't that be great? Like if everybody joined a gym membership or if anyone who, whatever it is you committed yourself to with your word that you actually just follow through. It's been the biggest secret to my success, Jewel. Hire smart people, Listen to them and know that you didn't have answers. That's why you hired them. And just do whatever they say. Do it to the best of your ability, exactly the way you were instructed. Don't try to change it, just do it over and over again. And then when you really tried, and you know you tried, try one more freaking time and if it still doesn't work out, then try another thing. But what happens is people self sabotage from the jump. They don't do it exactly the way they instruct it because they think they know better. And then when it doesn't work out, well, you've manifested it not to work out. If they tell you to make 100 calls and you make 14 and you're like, well, it didn't work in 14 calls. Well, you didn't do the a hundred calls. Or if they say do, I don't know, end the call with this call to action and you change that. You don't really know if it didn't work or was you who made it not work. And so that's why I think, gosh, I'm just getting too old and too cranky now. If you want to work with me, this is the way it's going to work. Otherwise, save your time, save your money, save some of my grief, please.
- [76:14]
Jewel Kim
Your age is the excuse for crankiness.
- [76:17]
Chris Do
Yeah, yeah. You notice how old people ain't got time for bs?
- [76:20]
Jewel Kim
Oh, so you agree you're old?
- [76:22]
Chris Do
I am old. I tell people I'm old and I'm delighted when There are other people on stage that are older than me. I'm like, God dang it, I'm the young gun up here right now. It's not often I could say that. I mean, I remember looking at my students at Art center and saying, okay, so I've been running my company since 1995. And they just gasp. Like, literally. They don't. It's not even like an imagination was even born in 1995. So I say, so I've been running my business longer than you've been alive. So the smart person in this room would say, well, let's take your experience, condense it down so I can avoid some of the mistakes that you've made so I can get a short cut to achieving what it is I want. And that's the whole point of education. We would not go to school if we thought we're only going to recommit all the same mistakes again. Then just save your money, save your time. Just go explore the world yourself and make up. Make all the mistakes in the world.
- [77:10]
Jewel Kim
Yep, I agree. Well, thanks for the call, man. This was fun, as always.
- [77:16]
Chris Do
Thanks, Joel. Let me tease the next episode. Next time I won't remember any of this, but next time we'll talk about a spiritual walk that I had with my wife and my kids recently in Mount Shasta. And my wife has been exploring quantum entanglement, quantum particle, quantum physics, and alternate realities and timelines and everything. And it's her trip into, like, mysticism and sometimes the occult. It's been fascinating for me to watch, and I want to share some of the things I learned.
- [77:43]
Jewel Kim
I cannot wait. I. I love this. This side of you with everything Jesse's learning, and I cannot wait to learn everything about this. I love this.
- [77:54]
Chris Do
I'm just going to give you fragments of what I've overheard. So of course, then we. We'll see what happens there.
- [77:59]
Jewel Kim
You know what the answer is? You got to bring her on.
- [78:02]
Chris Do
I. I can try.
- [78:04]
Jewel Kim
We got to talk.
- [78:04]
Chris Do
She's practicing some things and she's like, let me do a sonic bath, A sound. Sound bath for. For your audience. I'm like, babe, how are they going to feel it? They'll feel it. So maybe we'll have her off camera and she could, she could do something. She has a hand pan, too. She plays quite well, but she's, like, too self conscious to play that.
- [78:23]
Jewel Kim
Oh, my God, I love this. Yeah, I love this. I was thinking of getting one. That's so cool.
- [78:28]
Chris Do
Yeah, they're pretty cool. Yeah. So she maybe should jam for us. Just off. Off the record. We'll see what happens. Okay, that's it. So this is an unusual and different approach to our content, everybody. So bear with us as we work through this. But I think sometimes when we're having these conversations, I think real gems come out, and it's a pity that you can't always be there with us to hear what we hear and to kind of learn from each other. And this is an attempt to help bring you in in that conversation. Thanks for sticking out to the very end with us. I'm Chris do, and I describe myself as a loud introvert. Sometimes I'm critically sharp. I'm a middle child and a recovering graphic designer.
- [79:08]
Jewel Kim
This is Jewel Kim, and I love teaching people how to talk to other people without being so freaking awkward.
- [79:15]
Chris Do
Perfect.
- [79:16]
Jewel Kim
Sorry.
- [79:17]
Chris Do
Awkwardly perfect. Perfectly awkward.
- [79:20]
Jewel Kim
I'm demonstrating my own awkwardness.