Chaos, Creativity, and the Soul of Print w/ Marvin Scott Jarrett & Chris Ashworth | Ep 369

Summary

Podcast Summary: Chaos, Creativity, and the Soul of Print w/ Marvin Scott Jarrett & Chris Ashworth | Ep 369

Release Date: August 7, 2025
Podcast: The Futur with Chris Do

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Introduction

In Episode 369 of The Futur Podcast, host Chris Do engages in a deep and nostalgic conversation with two influential figures in the design and publishing world: Marvin Scott Jarrett and Chris Ashworth. The episode revolves around the resurgence of print media, particularly large-format magazines, and explores the intricate dance between chaos and creativity in the design process.

Collaboration History

[00:54]
Chris Do introduces Marvin Scott Jarrett and Chris Ashworth, highlighting their significant contributions to design, fashion, and music. The collaboration between Marvin and Chris began around 2017 when Chris transitioned from his role at Microsoft to take on the position of art director for Marvin's apparel line in Japan. This partnership laid the foundation for their current joint venture—a new, progressive music and style magazine born during the COVID-19 pandemic.

The New Magazine: Concept and Design

[02:55] | Marvin Scott Jarrett
Marvin discusses his journey from selling Nylon magazine for 15 years to embarking on his own publishing ventures. Inspired by creator-led magazines in London, Marvin envisioned a large-format publication focused exclusively on music and style. "The COVID that's on the newsstand right now is Damiano David from Monoskin. It's just chalk filled with great music personalities and it looks awesome."

[04:52] | Chris Ashworth
Chris elaborates on the magazine’s unique format. Each spread is designed like an A2 poster, offering a prestigious and tactile experience for readers. "Every spread that I've done is like design an A2 poster. It's ridiculous."

Embracing Chaos and Creativity

[05:33] | Chris Ashworth
Chris emphasizes the importance of progression in design. Drawing from his diverse experiences over the past decade, he integrates various elements like paint and stencils to respond dynamically to music influences. "I think when you see it, hopefully it'll smell of Ashworth in some way, but it'll be a, maybe a new kind of scent. I'm really proud of the way it's turned out because I do feel like it is a progression."

[08:03] | Chris Ashworth
Discussing his design approach, Chris highlights his commitment to ensuring that each page is distinct. "The only thing that's typeset in the magazine is the body copy. I always sort of set myself these sort of rules... I don't want anything to look like the page before."

Stories from the Design World

[11:42] | Marvin Scott Jarrett
Marvin shares anecdotes from his time at Ray Gun magazine, particularly his experience working with famed art director David Carson. A memorable incident involved Carson submitting a cover design featuring a close-up of David Bowie's neck, which Marvin felt didn’t align with his vision. "I just said, there's no way I'm going to publish this. I said, look, you know, you've got to use a headshot."

[15:57] | Chris Ashworth
Chris recounts the organic and serendipitous nature of their design process at Ray Gun. An example includes the accidental placement of a barcode over the drummer's head on a cover, leading to an unexpected yet perfect composition. "There was absolutely no way I would ever have put it there. And it was just compositionally, to me, it was just absolutely perfect."

The Evolution of Magazine Publishing

[10:23] | Marvin Scott Jarrett
Marvin reflects on the declining days of mass-produced magazines, driven by the shift to digital media and the erosion of advertising support. "I just wanted to create, like, the coolest magazine for myself, really, because I wanted a cool music magazine... If it finds a resonance, which this one has, then that's awesome."

[19:42] | Marvin Scott Jarrett
Addressing the role of historians and curators in the age of AI, Marvin emphasizes the importance of personal experiences and cultural exposure in developing a discerning taste. "Everything that's around me and that makes up my DNA and my vision of the world... I just kind of got known for that in a way."

Creativity, Constraints, and the Creative Process

[28:11] | Chris Ashworth
Both Marvin and Chris discuss how constraints can foster creativity. Chris shares his favorite Ray Gun covers that emerged from wrestling with difficult design briefs, asserting that "some of the best stuff comes from restraint."

[26:11] | Host (Chris Do)
The conversation delves into the concept of the "flow state," where creators tap into a subconscious well of creativity. This state allows for spontaneous and authentic creations that transcend deliberate planning.

The Role of AI in Creativity

[22:54] | Marvin Scott Jarrett
Marvin offers a nuanced view on AI, suggesting that when used as a tool, it can be incredibly powerful. However, he remains cautious about AI's ability to truly capture the human soul and spirituality inherent in creative endeavors.

[23:09] | Chris Ashworth
Chris expresses ambivalence about AI in the creative field, recognizing its potential benefits in areas like science but remaining uncertain about its role in creativity. "The jury's out for me."

Developing Taste and Curatorial Sensibility

[21:25] | Marvin Scott Jarrett
Marvin advises aspiring designers to immerse themselves in diverse media—music, magazines, movies—and to stay aware of both mainstream and edge content to cultivate their unique aesthetic. "Somehow be super familiar with other artists that came before you. But you've gotta like create your own lane."

[22:32] | Chris Ashworth
Chris echoes the sentiment of consuming content from the fringes to develop a distinctive taste, sharing personal experiences of discovering influential music and design outside the mainstream.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Marvin and Chris reflecting on the joys and challenges of their collaborative journey, emphasizing the importance of embracing unpredictability and maintaining creative integrity. Their shared passion for design and music underscores a commitment to producing authentic, resonant work that stands out in today's digital-dominated landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• Marvin Scott Jarrett
  "Everything that’s around me and that makes up my DNA and my vision of the world."
  [20:33]

• Chris Ashworth
  "Every spread that I've done is like design an A2 poster. It's ridiculous."
  [04:52]

• Marvin Scott Jarrett
  "I think some of the best stuff comes from constraint."
  [28:11]

• Chris Ashworth
  "The only thing that's typeset in the magazine is the body copy."
  [08:03]

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This episode serves as a nostalgic homage to the analog era of print media while simultaneously pushing the boundaries of modern magazine design. Marvin Scott Jarrett and Chris Ashworth offer invaluable insights into the creative process, the importance of embracing chaos, and the delicate balance between artistic freedom and editorial vision.

Transcript

[Host]

Hey, guys, we're going to do something a little different today. We're going to go into a time machine. If you are a designer, a creative human being growing up in the 90s, you're going to want to tune in for this episode because I'm going to bring up some names that. That's going to probably bring up some warm feelings, some joy when. When print ruled all. And our sources of inspiration wasn't Internet, it wasn't AI it was in analog media in the form of magazines. That's how we were connected to the world and to the cultures in which we love and celebrated magazines like Nylon, Ray Gun, blah, blah, blah, Bikini and Sweater. You're going to want to listen in.

[Chris Ashworth]

I'm Chris Ashworth.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

I'm Marvin Scott Jarrett. And you're listening to the future.

[Host]

I have the distinguished pleasure of talking to two people who have been shaping the design and the fashion and the music scene for some time now. I've met one of them in person. Marvin, I met you over at Soho House, I think, a while back. We're just chatting, and you unknowingly have shaped, through the works that you've done with your publishing, my design career in life. And then the other person I'm talking to, we've had on here once before. His name is Chris, and we're here to talk about a couple exciting things that are happening down the line. So why don't I turn it over to you? Tell us what is going on.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

Chris and I, we first started like, re. Engaging in conversations, like, was five, six years ago.

[Chris Ashworth]

2017.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

2017. And Chris was one of the best, if not the best art directors that I've ever worked with. And, you know, he had this day job for a long time at Microsoft. So, you know, when he. When he left that, we started working on just like some graphic stuff for clothing. Like, Marvin, we sell apparel right now in Japan, but we're going to be selling it other. Other countries as well. But it came out that we needed a new art director, and I asked Chris if he would be interested.

[Host]

Let's do this. Let's zoom out a little bit because people are coming into this conversation. Cole, there's a lot of history between the two of you. Yeah, yeah. You all collaborated, as far as I know, on Ray Gun for. For a period that was like, when I was still going to design school. Looking at this and thinking this is so dope is very cool. So for people who aren't like, in. In this world of print and design and topography, this is Going to be a lot of new information for them. So behind you, Marvin, is your, your own magazine. One of me. But Marvin, it's a large format magazine. Can you describe briefly the. The idea behind the magazine itself?

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

I ended up selling Nylon, which I, I did for 15 years. And I took some time off and I, you know, after, you know, I produced a couple movies and whatnot and, and I ended up doing a book with Rizzoli in Valra Gun and it did really well. I was in London, I was speaking at the DNAD conference and I just went around and looked at magazine stores and bookstores when I was in London and it just got me inspired all these creator led magazines and I was thinking about once while I was doing the Ray Gun book, I got more into music again. I thought I want to do another music magazine. I started ideating it and I ended up meeting with a couple creatives. It came together and it was born during COVID So. And it's a, it's a large format music and style magazine, I guess you'd say. But everything through the lens of music, you. There'll always be a musician on the COVID There's not going to necessarily be an actor, that sort of thing. And you know, we want to turn people on to new music. The other thing that we do that I think is different than other publications is we focus on OGs of the music world as well as current stars that might be like more Gen Z, for example, like we've done Duran Duran inside, we've done Depeche Mode inside. The COVID that's on the newsstand right now is Damiano David from Monoskin. It's just chalk filled with great music personalities and it looks awesome. The issue that we designed with Chris is phenomenal and I can't wait for the world to see it.

[Host]

Great. There's a couple of things I want to point out. I have several issues of Marvin. It's a large format magazine. I believe it's unbound. So it comes in kind of loose formatted in a Ziploc bag. And it's kind of like pretty cool because you can go through it. But they're also like mini posters.

[Chris Ashworth]

Every spread that I've done is like design an A2 poster. It's ridiculous.

[Host]

It's very cool. It's a very prestige format. I like it. And it's hefty to put in your hands. I know it's been a long time. It's fingers bank at 15 years between Ray Gun and now. And you guys are rejoining Kind of the Avengers kind of get back together to do something cool again. Tell me a little bit about what it's like. Why now? Why are you doing this together?

[Chris Ashworth]

The thing that I wanted to do if I was going to do this magazine was to make sure that it felt progressive. Right. I mean, there's a lot of time gone by there and I certainly wouldn't want to repeat what I did before. I think you've probably seen a lot of the sounding print work that I've been doing over the last sort of 10 years. That, that is very naturally, I didn't plan it, but it's really helped develop my, my, my lens on the way that I create things. I think I was maybe in a good way quite here back in the 90s and now I've sort of really opened the blinkers and like brought in paint and brought in stencils and brought in kind of anything, which is what I love as, as a response to music. There's a lot more things to bring to the table in response to music this time. So I think when you see it, hopefully it'll smell of Ashworth in some way, but it'll be a, maybe a new kind of scent. I'm really proud of the way it's turned out because I do feel like it is a progression.

[Host]

I follow you on Instagram and I look at the work that you do with these album covers, these imaginary things with press down type and paint and stencils and things like that. It's really cool what you're doing. If, if somebody has not seen your Instagram account, don't know what we're talking about. Describe that thing and then describe your process a little bit for us.

[Chris Ashworth]

I mean, it's essentially something that's carried on from what Marvin started on Ray Gun, I think probably with Carson, which was called Sound in Print. So the back sort of four, five, six pages or whatever would be open to anyone to send in art of any form, illustration, photography. And the idea was that they were sending something in response to a particular song that they loved and then David would put them in the magazine. So I always just love the idea of sound in print. Just a beautiful idea. Started sticking bits of paper to other bits of paper again about eight years ago and I would just put these on, play a song and literally start making a response to that song I was listening to. And then I started posting them. And so I think that's the thing that's allowed me to develop more of a range in my responses to things.

[Host]

Now how has that informed your design approach as you're working on this new project together?

[Chris Ashworth]

Just 100%. I mean, the only thing that's typeset in the magazine is the body copy. I always sort of set myself these sort of rules. I remember Depeche Mode had a rule for about 15 years where they would never use the same sound twice. And then they got to a point where they were in the studio and the producer's like, you know, you are allowed to use the same rights if you want. And they were like, well, really we can. And at least started enjoying themselves again. So for me, giving myself that rule that I don't want anything to look like the page before, because to me, what I'm responding to is a certain artist. So isn't. It's never going to look the same because that's the beauty of creative human creativity. Right. It's all different. And I think that's what's great about Marvin's magazine. So it would be absurd for. For one feature to look like another. Unless I guess they're exactly the same genre. But so. So it allows me to. And it's very organic like it sounds when you start talking about it. It sounds like you've got this master plan. But I literally, like, get a Ken Carson story. I. I didn't. I wasn't familiar with him. Which is another great thing about doing this for Marvin, because you get back into a load of artists that you never heard of. But I put these on, I listen to his music before I start. I read the story, and then, you know, it'll take 10 minutes or it'll take two hours. I don't know. That's the way it kind of works.

[Host]

Very analog, very hands on. There's a human quality to the things that you do that I think resonates with people, and I think that's why there's a following and probably where Marvin's picking up on this. Marvin, I have a question for you. Bring you back in the conversation here. I grew up in a time when magazines were everything. It was the source for design inspiration stories, finding about new. New trends or just.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

Or.

[Host]

Or music acts that you kind of oblivious to, but you should know. And then over the years, especially as the Internet does its thing, content is being consumed elsewhere. I see some of my favorite magazines going out of business or thinning out. And I realized then much of the magazine was supported by advertising and not actual real content. It went from being maybe half an inch thick to like a quarter of an inch. Now what is the state of the industry in terms of, like, what it means to be a publisher and creating analog media.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

I think the days of doing these mass magazines are just dwindling. I just wanted to create, like, the coolest magazine for myself, really, because I. I wanted a cool music magazine and, you know, I wanted it to be really big. I wanted it to be the images to look like posters. And, you know, I'm just creating. Creating things. And, you know, if it finds a resonance, which this one has, then that's awesome. You know, the idea initially was, let me just put it in 50 of the coolest stores around the world. Let's think of it as like a sneaker. Drop loads, every issue sell out. That's kind of like the Halo piece for Marvin, the brand Marvin Media. You know, it's. We have a magazine, but we have an agency as well. We do work for outside clients, whether they run in Marvin or not.

[Host]

I want to take this opportunity to ask you this question. You've seen a lot of things. You've worked with a lot of personalities from the design space and in the music space. Can you share a story or two in terms of, like, one of these fun moments from either world so that we're, like, getting an inside peek into what it's like to look at the world from your point of view?

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

There's two famous stories from Reagan. Do you want to hear them?

[Host]

I want to hear them. Yeah. Let's go.

[Chris Ashworth]

Okay.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

So, you know, the first art director that we had was David Carson. I saw his work in Beach Culture and I thought it was really cool. And I was going to be doing a new music magazine, and I thought he was a great art director. But the subject matter of Beach Culture might have been a little bit more. Not a universal concept because people can't surf all over the world. You know, you have to be on beach. So I thought, what if. What if I bring him into a music magazine and give him like a lot of carte blanche to design it? And we met down in Del Mar somewhere. We decided to work together and he did an awesome job. As the magazine's reputation grew and grew and grew, I think that he might have spent less time on the magazine and spent more time talking about it, which, you know, I respect that somebody, you know, going out and inspiring other people. But, you know, we finally did my favorite musical icon ever from the time I was 13, David Bowie, for a cover. You know, I had a vision for what the David Bowie cover should be, and he turned in a cover of David Bowie's neck with the masthead on the top of it. I just said, there's no way I'm going to publish this. I said, look, you know, you've got to use a headshot. You got to use his face. And he didn't want to. So I changed it at the pre press house and sent him. Sent him a fax to let him know that I was going in a different direction for art director. And that's what happened.

[Host]

I believe you when you say you're pretty. Hands off.

[Chris Ashworth]

Yeah.

[Host]

Editor. Because the kinds of people that you pick, they. They are able to do what they do. And. And I can see that. And you're kind of a champion for artists and designers. I can see that. So what is it about this that you're like, you know what, man? I gotta do what's right for me and for what I believe in. If I were the other person, like, dude, you've given me so much freedom. If you wanna ask for something, I'm good.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

Yeah, exactly.

[Host]

You gotta call the shots, you know?

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

Yeah.

[Host]

My. My business coach used to say this. As the owner of the company, you have the right to be wrong. And if we're gonna be wrong, you get the first dibs on being wrong. Right.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

Yeah.

[Host]

So what. What do you think is going on in that situation? Did the. Is it an ego play? Did this. Did he outgrow his own position in his mind?

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

I think that David is a very arrogant sort of individual. You know, I've met just about every rock star that I've ever wanted to meet, and I've never seen anybody with an ego like that. I mean, it's just disrespectful. So that's what happened. And again, I think he's a great art director. But that time I finished my journey with him. Yeah, I said, and I thought that Ray Gun was bigger than just David Carson. That's. That was my belief. That's just my baby. You're working on it, but it's my baby, and I want to go in a different direction because I can't deal with the ego.

[Host]

Well, I think history might have proven that you made the right decisions there. Yeah, I'm not. I'm not a historian here, but you guys can do your own research and you'll figure this thing out. And then you fired him via fax, right? Did you do that? Did you tell the fax off? Is this rumor censors the picture, by the way?

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

No, I had set. I had set Chris up at a different magazine that I was doing in London. We got awarded the MTV magazine for Europe, and it was based out of London. And I had different art directors do boards for it. Chris and his partner at the time, Neil, did these incredible prototype boards that just, like, rocked my world. And I just said, yeah, this is what we're doing now. And so we did issues of Blah, blah, blah. Decided to put more of my energy back into Ray Gun.

[Chris Ashworth]

Yeah, in between blah and me started on Ray Gun. We did the first Ray Gun book, Out of Control. Yeah, that was the last thing I did in London. Can I tell a Ray Gun design story, please?

[Host]

I'd be disappointed if you didn't.

[Chris Ashworth]

I think the way that I work is always being. You know, it's always organic. And I embrace when anything kind of goes wrong, I love it. Like something serendipitous. I'm like, wait, wait a minute. Like, that's it, right? Just mistakes are not. Then there's no mistakes. And so when I was. I didn't like using the Mac. Still don't like using the Mac. But Neil and I would create this sort of thing, which was a way of taking the serendipitous that happens in the analog way and bringing it into the computer. So we used to call it Leave it where it lands. Okay. So what you would do is say you were designing a cover. So the example is the Jane's addiction cover number 50, 51. You would build the element on different files. So you got your cover image, right. That's on one file. Masthead. Right. I worked the masthead. That's on another file copy. So with that cover, I actually did it all on one file because it was a. I had an idea that I. I just wanted to execute. So it all had to be done together except for the barcode. When I grabbed the barcode, I finished cover. Grab the barcode for the printer, copy, paste, wherever it lands. I ain't moving it. So I paste it. Copy, paste. And it lands. And I'm like, there's absolutely no way I would ever have put it there. And it was just compositionally, to me, it was just absolutely perfect. Only problem was, it was over the drummer's head. The magazine came out, and then Marvin got a cough. Do you remember this? Do you remember this?

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

I'm Steve Perkins, the drummer. James Addiction. Yeah.

[Chris Ashworth]

So, yeah, I never. I never meant to upset Steve, but I think we did. So we had to send him a giant version of the COVID in a really nice frame without the barcode to his. To his house. But, yeah, that. So Just the point of the story is like, I've always embraced that sort of chance, I think. I love the. The idea of chance. Neil and I used to actually design blah, blah, blah, next to each other on the same desk. And we would swap seats halfway through layouts, which is just brilliant. I. It's one of the things I miss the most.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

I didn't know that. That's awesome.

[Chris Ashworth]

Yeah. And so you'd be like looking at about 10 minutes late. You'd look and. What? What? Wait, what? That's not a light. Why you. You know. But it's. It was brilliant. It was so exciting. But I'm back in touch with Neil, so we're. We're probably going to do Swiss grip volume one together after not really being in touch for over 20 years. So that's kind of exciting.

[Host]

Couple of things there. Seems like you like chaos theory or something like that. From my small understanding, a little bit.

[Chris Ashworth]

Right.

[Host]

But, you know, it's not totally random because I do use the computer a lot. It would paste something in it, paste it directly in the center. So wherever you are, it puts it right into the center of the screen. So if you're zoomed in on something, that's where it would put it.

[Chris Ashworth]

We would do it more often with lots like your headlines, images, body, and you would just paste it all in. Then you would. It would be quite weird, but with the barcode. Yeah, you're probably right. It was probably like smack, binary.

[Host]

But that's cool. So you. You're kind of saying, I would have never put it there. Now you introduce elements of chance and your work process and you embrace it and say, you know what? A logical conscious mind would not intentionally put it there. If things spills where it spills, that's a good spot for it. And Marvin let it fly. Then he had to do up the flat.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

I look cool as shit.

[Host]

Had to make one giant poster.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

Other than that. Exactly. Yeah.

[Chris Ashworth]

Wesley.

[Host]

I have a question for you, Marvin, because this is something we talk about a lot today, especially in the age of AI, when anything can be made and anybody can do anything. I think there's more power now to two types of people who didn't have a lot of power before. Is the historian someone who knows what's come before so it can ask the machine to do what they're referencing. So language skills become really important. And the second part to that is not everybody has good taste because the machine can make something, doesn't make it good. And a good writer, a good musician, a good actor will Know a good performance from a bad one. So the question I'm throwing to you here is because you don't have a traditional design background, what informs your taste? Like how did you develop your sense of taste and your curatorial eye?

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

That's a great question. Everything that around me and that makes up my DNA and my vision of the world. So I'm living in Florida, surfing and stuff like that and you know, had an uncle in New York and I'd go up to New York every summer and go into the city and just like explore and see so many things. I just absorb everything and. And somehow I can tell if somebody's got ingredient X, if it's cool, does it look cool, does it sound cool? And I don't know, I just kind of got known for that in a way.

[Host]

If, if you were talking to a young 18 year old student who's about to go into university to study design, how. How do you impart some of that sensibility, that instinct that you have into them? Can you articulate that in a way that like. Yes. Right, that's what I'll be doing.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

So I would say absorbing music, magazines, movies that are going to inspire your craft, so to speak. Somehow be super familiar with other artists that came before you. But you've gotta like create your own lane.

[Chris Ashworth]

I think it's like living on the edges as well, but like consuming on the edges. Like when I grew up, it was John Peel and I didn't actually listen to him. I had a mate who listened to him around the corner all. Every night he'd just go out by the kitchen, cassettes for the bands he loved and then I borrow them off him. So that is how I got into music. A Radio 6 for me right now is in, in England, is. It was KXP in Seattle. Really on, on. On the kind of edge there and really interesting alternative place stuff. You just. It's outside of the mainstream and I think that's what Marvin's like a fan of. You're like a real consumer of, of. Of all that stuff, right. It's not like a job, it's like a. It's like innate in Marvin that it just is always consuming the edges.

[Host]

I saw a physical reaction when I mentioned the word AI. Should we wade into this water a little bit, stir up a little controversy and get your opinions on this? Both of you. Marvin, why don't we have your take on AI and how you feel about it?

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

Well, I think if AI is used as a tool, if the human is using the AI As a tool, it probably could be awesome. I haven't seen visuals yet that blew me away. But ChatGPT, I mean if you, if you do the right prompts and so forth, it's pretty amazing.

[Chris Ashworth]

Uh, I think the jury's out for me at the moment. I think in, in certain areas of, of our lives, science for one, it could be the thing that helps cure cancer. I don't know, like in those areas, that's overwhelmingly exciting in the creative field. I think the jury's out for me.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

I'm going to give you a stream of consciousness answer. What if, I mean, as creative people were able to, to tap into source energy, so to speak, what if there's this ability that AI has to tap into manifested source energy? It's just a different way of looking at it, a different way of looking at consciousness. And I think that AI just, you know, it doesn't have a soul, will never have a soul, doesn't. It's not spiritual and I'm, I'm not afraid of it. It's an interesting concept and it's an interesting reality to look at it that way. But I mean I'm, I'm super spiritual person and I believe the same thing that your wife has said to a certain extent.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

There's one thing that you said that, that didn't resonate with me and I can't. But overall, yes, dream state, physical state, illusionary state. I think that we're all brought here to do certain things and he. It's up to each one of us to find out what is, what is it that we're meant to do.

[Chris Ashworth]

I definitely like, like I said Rick, when I read Rick Rubin's book and this is, I don't know whether this is totally related to what you're talking about, but there is this sort of space that happens when you're making things that. It's almost like you're, you're, that you're not there, you're there. But like. And it's a really weird thing to talk about, but it's just, there's certain pieces of work that I've done wherever you're like, wow, I don't know what happened there, but that wasn't what I intended I was going to do. It just blows me away. It's just tapping into that is obviously the hardest thing to do. And if you try and do it, actually it doesn't happen. It's, it's a weird sort of thing.

[Host]

There's, I guess people would describe as a flow state, they've described as Brian Ling. Pulling from source code I heard in a documentary with Paul McCartney. He's like, I don't write the songs. Well, who the hell's writing this? It's like some source code. And the thing that Chris, you're talking about, I've had many, many times, and I'm sure Marvin has as well, is that sometimes you create something. You step away, like, who the hell wrote that? Who, who made this? And weird to say, like, I admire whoever did that, but I know it was my hands, but maybe it wasn't me. And it's a pretty cool state to be in. And I think it's this state in between conscious and unconscious thought that, that you can have the creativity and the ability to manifest things into physical reality.

[Chris Ashworth]

Right?

[Host]

Because at a dream state you could do anything, but there's no physical manifestation. And in the physical state, you're like, I'm, I'm like 10% of my creative energy right now.

[Chris Ashworth]

Right.

[Host]

And so some of the most brilliant minds would deliberately put themselves into this state. I think it was, is it Edison or Jefferson who would hold the metal ball in his hand while he's working at his desk and when it fall, he's like, okay, what do I just think of? Writers have done this for a long time. Some people use hallucinogenics to, to get into that state. Or sleep deprivation will do that to you. And you're able to tap into something. There is something really powerful that we don't yet fully understand. Some of us are on the edges of it, and some of us can do it on command. Some of us will never experience it. It just depends on what plane your mind or your consciousness existing on. But there's something really cool about that. I practice a form of detachment so that it's like, this is not what is. What am I? I don't even know what I am, but this is not me. And I just want to see where it takes me. And sometimes I'll have a podcast with some people like you, and I'll be very clear minded and I'll be locked in on the conversation. And sometimes I can't string together three good sentences. I'm like, what is going on with me today?

[Chris Ashworth]

Right?

[Host]

Maybe I'm being blocked energetically. I don't know.

[Chris Ashworth]

He's like finding the next thing, though, I think were. I think so I'm seeing myself as a responder. I'm like, I mean, it's interesting. Like people are always sort of like, so you did, you didn't get involved in any of the photo shoots on Ray Gun. I'm like, no, why, man? I mean, part of the fact that it was a brilliant photo editor there when I landed. Yeah, I love just responding to what I was given. I loved that. That clear. Like here, here are the images you get, you know, 12 or 15, like you can choose like from them, but you're not bogged down in it. I like that.

[Host]

I think creative people, especially young in their journey, don't realize this, but constraints actually are the fertile place to be creative.

[Chris Ashworth]

Totally.

[Host]

When you say do anything for anyone for any time, nothing gets produced. But like, here are the images, here's the deadline, here's the copy. Your creativity then starts to sort all that stuff out. Right?

[Chris Ashworth]

It's funny you should say that because some of my favorite Ray Gun covers were horrendous. When I, when I first got the images, I honestly, I was like, how the, the Radiohead cover, how beautiful imagery. But that's not a cover. That's not a cover. How are you going to make that work? And in, in, in, in that, doing that and wrestling with that came one of my favorite things I've ever done. So it is literally, you're right. Yeah, it's. Some of the best stuff comes from restraint and. Or just being put in a situation, having to react to it. It's not what you wanted, but I've learned to embrace that. Cause actually you can find something interesting in that. I did in my talk. I don't know whether I've told Marvin this, but I, I have a few slides that have letters on that. So like, the only way we got feedback back then wasn't email and stuff was like, people would like write us and post us letters and we would only really print the bad ones just because we got a kick out of this one is I don't normally write letters to magazines. But your November issue wasn't a normal magazine. That was from Davis Potts in Seattle. Actually, the art of your magazine both nauseates and angers me. That's from Ben in North Carolina. And then the best one, the only reason I read your crappy art magazine is because my roommate gets it for free. Up yours, you stupid fashion clinging, trendy losers. And that's from Erica in Brooklyn.

[Host]

I've enjoyed this conversation, gentlemen. Thanks for having it with me.

[Chris Ashworth]

It's great, man.

[Host]

Thank you.

[Marvin Scott Jarrett]

Yeah, this is awesome.

[Host]

It's been awesome. Thank you very much.