← The Futur with Chris Do
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- [00:00]
A
Today we're going to talk about how you become world class at something. And honestly, in researching for this, it just made me want to stop doing every single thing that I do, apart from one thing, and be world class at it, because I've been studying people who are obsessed with one thing, and it's infectious. It's really cool.
- [00:22]
B
So what does world class mean, Jodi?
- [00:24]
A
So when the. How do you define world class? I've got someone is not only among the very best, but they set the standard for others. And then the definition of world class that we could follow in this episode has five main points. And that's measurable dominance, that it can be quantified against others. So like world records or championships or market share or output or skill ratings, something that shows that you operate at the very top two is consistency over time. So it's not just that you peak once, it's that you sustain it. So world class means you show up year after year. It's not just this flash of brilliance that then goes away. Separation from peers, number three. So the idea that if you watch someone doing their thing, the gap is obvious. They've got some kind of speed or some kind of quality or some kind of insight that makes even other high performers look ordinary. And then for influence on the field, so they're almost redefining what good looks like. So they're doing their thing and then others are copying their techniques, they're copying their style because they're. That person has themselves raised the bar. And then the fifth one is their mindset and the process that they follow. So the idea that they're not just talented and they haven't just been born with something that they're just using, they've also got a system. They're obsessed with the details. They put in relentless training, recovery, feedback loops, and then discipline to keep improving even when they are already ahead. And then discipline we'll probably talk about later because they might not see it as discipline, they might just see it as what they do. But then to an onlooker, they will look incredibly regimented and disciplined.
- [02:06]
B
Yeah. So your definition or your criteria for being world class is much deeper than I thought. But I'm not surprised there. When we ask you, are you world class? People are really quick to say yes, or I'll say, is this person world class? Because you've seen them on Instagram, they're like, yes. Like, I think we're not looking hard enough. We're just assuming popularity equals world class. And it's not that way. So let's take photographer, for the sake of conversation, let's say you shoot celebrity portraits. That's about as narrow as I can get. So if we look at that, Jodi, based on the things that you've been able to observe, the five criteria, does anything change at all? Like how do we help people understand this? Kind of in layman terms, I think
- [02:46]
A
if your field was something narrow like celebrity portraits, I think it would be really important to define yourself when you feel like you are world class in that which might be different from someone else's definition, but it doesn't necessarily matter. But that might be when you get the jobs over other people, when you get selected over other people, when you get to shoot who you believe are the best celebrities in the world, when you're shooting A listers instead of D listers. And then I quite like the idea of influence on the field in that I feel like if you were in that field and you were becoming world class, you would start to notice your specific style being emulated by other people. And maybe at first you would see it and you would say, huh, I do that, I did that. I invented that camera technique or I invented that backdrop or something like that. And you would feel a bit strange, but then you would very quickly realize that that was a such a big compliment. And then you would start to feel proud of people copying you because you're still improving. So if they're a few steps behind, fine, let them be because you're still going to.
- [03:48]
B
Yeah, a lot of people don't see it like that though, unfortunately, especially in the creative space. So that's why certain techniques, tools, processes are such guarded secrets. People don't want to share that because they don't want to create clones. Now I'm not advocating for like people copying people. It's inevitable. But here's an example. This is a real world example. For many years and probably still to this day, if you go on a photographer's website, they use some kind of Flash or Java so that you can download the images, but you know, I can just screen capture it. They just don't want to make it 20% easier for you to download. And because of that, the spiders from Google can't index your images. So when you search for your work, you can't find it. So yeah, you're making it like 10%, 20% harder for people to download your images, but you're also making it 20 or 100% harder for indexing robots to find your work and to be able to send people your way. So it's, it's a double edged sword, but they'd rather do that now. You can test this theory and it, it's slowly starting to change because I think they've like raised their hand and said, well, I would prefer to be found than to try to protect my images this way. And so we kind of use that as a way to slow down competition. We don't look at it as a, there's like a scarcity mindset, there's the zero sum game mindset and there's not an abundance mindset where, you know, there's a lot of work out there. And the people who know will know that I was the one who took these photos and originated this particular style or technique.
- [05:20]
A
I feel like the people who are really, truly at the top. So the people who spring to mind are people like Beyonce. Does Beyonce protect things on her website because she thinks that people are going to copy it? Like, I don't think she does. I think she's just being Beyonce, doing her thing, knowing that copycats are inevitable, but just she's so far away from that that it doesn't even cross her mind. I think. I'm not, I don't know her personally, but I can almost imagine you get to a stage where that just doesn't even matter at all. It's just too small for you to think about.
- [05:51]
B
Yes. You know, let's go beyond that though. When you're so confident and world class, you start to let go of this idea. Like, I've got enough. And actually I want to help other people in my space do well. But I also want to lead and show that generosity can be a thing. And so I'm gonna just give stuff away. And I think it takes a level of confidence to be able to do that. And they're not so worried like, oh, I mean, as soon as you listen to something like that's a Moby sound, you can tell his signature. His fingerprints are all over it. Same thing with Trent Reznor Nine Inch Nails. It's like, yeah, it's so distinctive of a sound that it would be hard for you to copy and not be labeled as a copycat.
- [06:27]
A
If we also look at the different stages of competence as well. Cause that's all on the journey to becoming world class. If you have first unconscious incompetence when you don't know that you're not very good at something, then as soon as you start trying it out, you realize that you now know that you're not very good at it. And then you progress up to conscious competence, where you know that you're becoming really good at something. But then after that you move beyond it, where it becomes this unconscious thing where you almost just have this intuition around what you're doing. I think that the stage at which you really do want to protect what you're doing is probably number three, the conscious competence. Because that's probably where you are aware that you have to put a lot of conscious work into being good. And therefore it could maybe feel like there's a danger there that someone else could just do that too. But I think that once you get to unconscious competence, you're almost untouchable because of how many hours you've had to put in getting to that level of just innate being good at something. And if you realize you're in that stage, there's a big power in that, because you could just keep going forever and ever and keep getting better.
- [07:46]
B
There's a lot of power in that because it feels effortless to you. People look at you and it's like, how are you doing? Are you just pulling us out of thin air? When I watch Sir Paul McCartney just play a thing on a keyboard and just write a song from Nothingness. I'm not saying it's a great song, but it's still a song. It's like you're in awe. But there's the downside. So as I spend more time thinking about my own philosophy and belief systems, and I'm kind of bumping up to other people who share same ideas, who much more deep in the philosophy. But there's this idea that there's no such thing as a good thing without a bad thing, and no such thing as a bad thing without a good thing. So what's the problem when you reach unconscious competence, meaning you're so competent you don't even think about doing it. It just gets done. It's so natural. Like breathing. We're not focused on breathing. We do it all the time. Or like blinking, you only exert effort when you think about it. That's the level you want to get to. Okay? The downside to this is a form of cognitive bias called the curse of knowledge. You and I probably suffer from some form of curse of knowledge. The curse of knowledge says we've become so good at doing something that we forget at one point in our lives, we used to struggle. So this is where some high performers get really nasty with people like, why can't you do this? You're so stupid. It's so easy. Just do it like this. And so they make horrible instructors because they can't remember what it was like from 0 to 70. They just know what it feels like from 99 to 100. And so for many, many years, this is a confession. I'm so sorry, everybody. My former students at Art Center, I was like, how come you can't see these two things, like, literally right next to each other? The image you should have made is, like, right there. And they're staring at it, and everybody's like, huh? What is he looking at? I'm like, it's right there. I swear to you, it's right there. And I would give them hints without trying to tell them what it is. And then after 20 minutes of doing this, they're like, oh, will you just tell us? I'm like, all right. I walk over with my marker, I turn the page a little bit, and I draw this. And they're like, oh, my God. And I think what they're thinking is, we hate you. It was literally right there. It was just a squint of the eye, a little bending of your. What you perceive. And the answer was there. And conceptually. And the reason why I'm so reluctant to show them, I want to lead them there without telling them, because I do not want to rob them of the joy of putting these things together themselves. But I say all this stuff because when I went to teach, I would get frustrated because I'm like, guys, we've been doing this for 10 weeks now. And every single time I ask you, think about it like this. You're still stuck. So this is the curse of knowledge. When you have unconscious competence, you can get a little testy with people. You forget the actual steps. So when you were saying before, when you're consciously competent, it's a dangerous time, but it's actually your best time to become an instructor, because you're moving into a state where you will no longer remember how to do what you do, but you have enough knowledge behind you that you can teach others. And most of us either never get to conscious competence or zoom past it, and we lose this window that we have. So it's not until some young person or some inexperienced person from a different field asks me, chris, how'd you do that? And it's never occurred to me that it's not obvious to everyone until I'm asked, how'd you do that? And then I have to sit there and crawl into my own brain and say, let me try and break it down for you this way. Now, luckily, I have that ability to do that. But a lot of people are very good, do not have that ability to do that.
- [11:34]
A
I feel like when you do have the unconscious competence, you can be such an intolerant person. And then I feel like every interaction you had would just back that up. So you would keep thinking, oh, no one else can do it. I have to do it myself. It would become hard to hire, hard to outsource. It would feel very lonely at the top. But then you have to, like, in order to grow, in order to keep progressing. Unless you want to be this solo artist and not build a team around you, you have to turn your methods into structure. But like you said the step before, that's almost the consultant's playground. That's the trainer's playground. That's this whole place where if you realize that you are getting really good at something before it gets unconscious, you have to write your methods down. You have to find some way of teaching them, even if you're just keeping a journal.
- [12:24]
B
How do you demonstrate that you're world class or you're that good so that you've earned the right? Something like that. Right. So if you've won awards, it's clear. If you judge shows, it's pretty clear. If you've been in a field for a very long time, like you're considered an og, an original gangster, and you were there at ground zero, you're part of a movement. If the history books already include you while you're still alive, that's a pretty good sign. If you're a professor or lecturer on this topic, where people fly you in, I think you can demonstrate it quite handily and you don't have to demonstrate it to that person. It's more, have you given yourself permission to be this person or not?
- [13:04]
A
It almost feels like you only get celebrated for the good stuff when you have made it. And then before that, that's the stuff that you almost get teased at school about, like being obsessed or being intense or being like never giving up on something or being just crazy about this one topic. That's all the stuff that if you're at high school, people would be saying, oh, you, you're a weirdo. Like, what are you even doing? And then it only looks like art and genius when you have demonstrated that you can be world class at it. But how do you get over the bit before then? How do you go from bullied to celebrated?
- [13:38]
B
I can share with you some of my own life experiences and see if it makes any sense to you. And if you can unpack it. I have always remembered being good at art and design and creative because I was the creative, weird, quiet art kid. I would draw all the time in my notebooks. And so whenever there was a sporting event, I would be last picked. But if there was a creative project, I would be first picked. We want him because we know it's going to be good. So I think in grade school you can be obsessed about something, and I think it's actually good. I don't think you get picked on that much unless you start acting really weird. And I think people respect conviction. Like when you show up to school in your Scouting uniform and people snicker a little bit and you're like, I'm proud to wear this. I've earned this.
- [14:29]
A
So we talked about how in unconscious competence, you often can't really explain it. People will say, like, oh, how do you do that thing? How do you. Okay, so you're in a really good public speaker, like, what's your process? And they go, I don't know, I just do it. That's them kind of not being able to explain themselves, which then might look like they didn't know or they weren't legit, when actually they are so legit that they've forgotten how to explain themselves. So then how do you. How do you know the kind of
- [14:59]
B
person who lies during an interview is consciously incompetent? Stage two, because they're aware that they don't know stuff, so they just make up stuff. They're aware and they're very insecure in this state because the worst state to be in is stage two. In my opinion. It's good to be stupid and happy. You don't know what you don't know. In fact, sometimes unconscious incompetence are the people who are actually world breakers. They just think anything can be done and they do it. And they don't even know that they can't do it. Where a lot of creative people live in, unfortunately, is they're misdiagnosed as consciously incompetent when they're actually competent. They just think, I don't have enough skills. They're comparing themselves to an imagined perfect future self or others, and they're just like, I'll never measure up to that. Well, no one will. No one's who they're going to be in the future today. That's why it's called the future. So if we talk about people who are unconsciously competent, like, you're so good you forgot how you do it. You can always tell. I've never once met a person who's that good, who you just couldn't feel from them that they're that good.
- [16:06]
A
This is you doing it as well. This is you saying, yeah, it's easy to tell. And I'm like, tell me the process. And you're like, you just know I'm
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B
going to tell you the process. You can tell. Give me a category. Go with an easy one first and then go crazy on me and make it very difficult for me to tell you. Okay, yeah, go with one that's kind of. They're unconsciously competent about something. What are they unconsciously competent about?
- [16:33]
A
LinkedIn.
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B
Okay. Somebody says, I'm really good at LinkedIn, and then I'm like, what are you good at?
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A
I can just tell when a hook is going to perform and when it's not.
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B
Okay. Have you noticed any patterns between the ones that work and ones that don't?
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A
Yeah, they create an information gap. They create an emotional response. They make someone want to read the rest of it. And they're also something that not everyone says. So there's an element of, oh, no, they didn't.
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B
So when you see one that isn't, what are you looking for? You must have seen really bad hooks.
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A
Yeah, I just look at them and I go, oh, that's not going to work. And that's a shame. But I don't always know. Sometimes it's because it's like it's a question, but no one cares about the answer. Sometimes it's because you have to think too much. Sometimes it's because there's too much information missing. So it just doesn't make sense.
- [17:20]
B
Okay, so you've already demonstrated it. You've already demonstrated by your ability to expand. Now, a lot of people who are really good, they don't sit around and think about what they do anymore. But when asked very specific questions, they can answer them pretty easily. And you can tell because they don't even have to think about it. Rarely have ever met someone who's that good that you just didn't understand in their body language, in their tonality, their phraseology. And there's succinct answers. You could just tell. And they're very specific about what you can do. Vague generalities are a good sign that you don't know what the hell you're doing.
- [17:53]
A
So this is actually something that I've been teaching recently because we have this webinar that I've been running called the LinkedIn for Coaches webinar, and there's a framework that I'VE been talking about and I'm calling it Adopt, Adapt, improve and it's my dad taught in me. But it's from like, it's kind of like a roundtable motto, like a kind of club in the uk. But I think that if someone wants to be really good at something, but if they don't want necessarily the giant hours of learning curve, it's like how do you get there a little bit faster but still become like an expert or still get really good at it enough to be able to grow your business.
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B
Look, I don't know where we're going to end, but I do need to do something with you before we end on this topic. Okay. Is Jody Cook world class at something and how do you know?
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A
So one of the things I was thinking about is how I think it's a Seth Godin quote, the idea that if you, you keep defining what you do until you're the best in the world at what you do and I do like the idea that you stack stuff together because I'm definitely not the best powerlifter in the world. I'm not the best female powerlifter in the world. I'm not the best. 57.
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B
Not the best. Just world class though. Are you world class yet?
- [19:01]
A
Well, I compete internationally so I would say like international elite is like a category that comes up that if your numbers match then you are that so. Yeah, potentially. But then the real like top 20 people in the world or that kind of number, I feel like no apart from bench press. But then if you combine that with something else, like something to do with business or something to do with travel or something to do with something else. There is a combination of words that you could say that I would think, yes, that is me, I'm world class at that.
- [19:32]
B
Okay, so you, you niche down enough where you can be world class, top 50 in the world. That idea.
- [19:39]
A
Yeah, I think so. I think so. Because then you just own that thing and then all the different combinations of having amazing traps and being good at bench press and also being a co host and also being a business owner, that means that you're then this world class version of you, that there is no competition, you feel it wholly. There's no question that you could get asked that you would slip up on because it's just who you genuinely are. And then you go around feeling like you're world class, which I think is the main thing because once it's your identity, I find it really hard not acting in ways accordance with the identity that I've got for myself because it's an integrity thing. So if I'm like, I'm world class at all these different things combined, I'm like world, world, world class at these things, then you always act like you are and then it prolife and then you continue to be.
- [20:29]
B
So what is Jody world class at? What is your niche based on your answers?
- [20:36]
A
I don't know. I don't know how I actually define it.
- [20:39]
B
Okay, so to be continued then?
- [20:42]
A
Yeah, sure, yeah. Have you defined yours? Like if I said what are you world class at?
- [20:49]
B
I believe I'm world class at graphic design. So you want to put me up against some people and whether it's a competition or something, I can out design most people. I'm not saying I'm the top one, but I can out design most people when it comes to typography and there's things I aspire to become. Somebody had said you are the best known graphic designer on the planet. I'm not sure if that's true and I'm not sure how to determine that, but it is a term that people are using from time to time. Even though I don't find myself as a graphic designer anymore, that was what I used to do. There's other things I've worked on, but I would not consider myself world class. I'm not a world class author, I'm not a world class public speaker. I'm a pretty kick ass keynote designer who designs the work himself. But I don't think there's a category for that just yet.
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A
Okay. I think I have better answers now. I've heard yours. Thanks, that's really useful.
- [21:47]
B
You're welcome.
- [21:49]
A
So I'm world class at equipped bench press because I came fifth at the world championships for it. And then I would say I feel like I'm a world class digital nomad, whatever that means. But it's because of how many different cities I've lived in, which is like 35, and also the processes that I've got for each one. That means it doesn't stress me out, it just is my identity and other people ask me about it and other people copy my processes and. And I give away my processes so that other people can have a better time becoming a digital nomad and doing their thing as well. I would say I felt like a world class agency owner because I had a pretty big agency and also had a seven figure exit and then also taught people how to have their own big exits by putting some of my steps in place. So I feel like the big way I would measure it is the ability to then teach other people or inspire other people in some way after it more so than the. The rankings, because that just feels like that's really important to me.
- [22:50]
B
So I think there's some form of self identification. But then we need to also bring in some objective measurement because. Because then this opens a can of worms for anybody to say, I'm a world class at X. Now, that's not to say that you couldn't say, I'm niched into this thing, which I love. And I think that's the intention behind what Seth is saying. He goes, be important enough to a small enough group that. Where they think of you highly, which is really cool from a marketing point of view. I get that. But we're talking about a little bit more objective measures of being world class. Now, while doing research about this very topic, you opened our conversation by saying, I feel like I need to quit everything and focus in on this one thing, because everybody I've studied does this thing and they're doing pretty good. Tell us a little bit more about that and tell us what your conclusion is.
- [23:35]
A
My conclusion is that in order to be world class at anything, by the definition that we have just come up with, and to travel through the stages of competence so that you can get to this unconscious competence where you're essentially, you're essentially untouchable and you still have problems and you still have frustrations because other people aren't quite there where you are, because by definition. And maybe you feel a bit lonely at the top, maybe you feel like you have to go through more challenges to teach people what you do. But overall, there are far more benefits than there are negatives. I feel like doing that involves starting to do it, getting the newbie gains from starting to do it, becoming an absolute student of the game in whatever you're doing. Then when you hit that inevitable dip, that inevitable plateau where your newbie gains run out, where you start to think, oh, should I be doing something else? You keep going then. Then you get to this glorious stage where it's so intuitive, it's so awesome that you don't even know what's possible at that stage. And that's where it's really interesting. But I feel like so many people don't ever get there because they do get distracted, because they look at what other people do, because they switch strategies far too early and they don't just keep going. So when I looked at all these, Beyonce, Mr. Beast, even my friend with his Instagram agency who's just got this intuition about how to blow people up on Instagram. It was like just specialized, like, just focus, be a geek, nerd out. And that's how you make it big in any field.
- [25:09]
B
So what are you going to geek out and nerd on and be super
- [25:13]
A
obsessed about LinkedIn, obviously.
- [25:17]
B
Are you giving up the plates?
- [25:19]
A
No way. It kind of inspired me to think I just don't want to add anything. I have everything I need right now in the things that I'm like 4, 6, 8 out of 10 in and that's it. It's like, don't add stuff. If anything, take stuff away and double down so that more energy goes into fewer things than is spread like too thinly. And I feel like for everyone, the number is going to be different as to how many things they can focus on at any given time. But if you think the goal is one and everything else you add takes away from that, then it might be two or three, but it can't be like seven because it's just stupid. It's never going to work.
- [25:54]
B
I want to end on this. If you are of the mindset that you want to become world class, get really prescriptive for us. Jodi. I want to reward them for making it to the very end of the episode. What do they need to do?
- [26:06]
A
Pick something, anything. Find a master. Become a student of the game. Keep going through the diploma. Don't underestimate the intensity required to do something well. And trust that you will get to the stage of unconscious competence where everything feels amazing, wonderful.
- [26:29]
B
I will say slightly differently, just much fewer words, which is become obsessed and then do the work. If you want to be world class, that's what it requires.