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- [00:01]
A
Doing stuff does not equal working because we're always doing something, but we're not always working, especially we're not always working on things that matter. So when we say we're gonna take a longer break or check our social feeds, we confuse that activity and we convince ourselves that's actually gonna generate something for us. And unless you're in the media business, unless it's your job to respond to comments and to look at what's going on and to write reports on trends that you're noticing or to provide reports on user sentiment, then that's not really working. That's something else. It's a distraction, it's an avoidance strategy, I think.
- [00:39]
B
So then let's get into this. What do you consider work and all the stuff you do every day in
- [00:45]
A
the stuff that I do. And we have to kind of caveat by what is it that I do? And for some people they'd be really confused, like, oh, I just thought you host podcasts and YouTube videos. Well, that's part of the job. So we're a media company primarily with an educational arm to it that sells products, educational products in the form of standalone study at your own pace. Things to digital downloads like booklets and guides and templates to group coaching and then the higher touch stuff. It's like one on one coaching and public speaking and workshops. Now the things that I do that I would consider work, the recording of this piece of content is work for me. So all the prep that goes into it, all the stuff that has to be done afterwards, that's work. Checking in our channel, seeing how things are performing, responding to comments, that's work because it needs to be done. And if I don't do it, somebody else will do it, but I'm going to be the person to do it. And then there's the actual coaching. Calls themselves the one on ones. The group coaching sometimes requires pre work, sometimes it doesn't. Just I just show up and I'm good to go. I'll give you the example. If you're a product manager, your probably highest priority is the ship. Ship products and features on time. That's what your highest priority is. You could probably care less about what the other people in the company are doing. So you can see like depending on who you ask and what their priorities are, they're gonna have a very different answer and take on this.
- [02:11]
B
I think this is kind of the crux of it though, right? We have I don't know how many millions of people who have a job is questionable whether what Percentage of them are actually delivering the results that the people at the top want. And yet on the one side, on the worker side, they would say that they are doing work.
- [02:33]
A
Yeah, it's a classic management of labor disagreement or dispute. And there are lots and lots of people out there working, making effort, but actually not moving the needle. And this is a responsibility that's shared by all. And basically it doesn't really matter whose fault it is. If they don't do the work that's productive and moving the needle, then eventually the company will go sideways. The biggest problem I think to this is we try to measure people's time, we try to measure people's energy, but we very rarely measure outcomes. In your life, you'll probably have three problems to follow you everywhere you go if you're an entrepreneur. Lead gen, sales and delivery. And they're kind of tied together.
- [03:17]
B
So you already know that I'm wanting to build a personal brand. I'm wanting to put my ideas and my thoughts out there. For me, that feels like work. But sometimes I question it. You know, I have days where I question this because it's like, is that actually adding to lead gen in my business? And I know that's debatable. I've had clients where, when I asked them, okay, so what made you reach out to me? And then what made you hire me instead of the other coaches you were looking at? And they'll literally say that they did some major cyber stalking, they went through my social profiles, they read posts. So I have days where I feel discouraged. I feel like I didn't really do any work. But then I have these small moments of maybe validation. It's like, oh, at least something happened. Something moved a needle, even if I didn't see it at that time. So I think earlier when you were talking about every business has the same three problems, lead gen, sales and delivery. And you hit them in a particular order. I noticed. So first you're going to have a lead gen problem, and once you have that solved, you're going to have a sales problem. And then next is delivery. So I suppose it's up to us to correctly identify which stage we're at for the constraint. And I would say right now I'm back down to Legion, having sort of switched my business. So there's the focus. There's also the confidence aspect in terms of just making sure that I don't fall into the abyss of feeling woe is me or nothing I'm doing is working. Or even just the sheer question of how do I navigate this new landscape I'm trying to get into. So there's the whole like, here's how I'm feeling. And then maybe the last part is how do I actually make sure that I'm taking an objective look into how my business has been going so far and making sure that I pick out like surface what's been working and then at least experiment with how do I do more of that and then see if it continues to work and maybe scale.
- [05:19]
A
You know what? You just reminded me of some random conversations I've had with a lot of different people. I have been relatively blessed in my life that I found something I like to do and I was able to go and pursue that to the highest level in which I could pursue it at. And that thing is called design. I wanted to be a graphic designer. So I went to one of the best schools for graphic design to learn this and went to Art center and I studied with some of the best professors, then graduated with what I thought was the best portfolio and then got some like really good opportunities off the jump. So for 20 some odd years I just worked in that space first to go to the highest level that I could, to be featured in books, magazines, to win the awards, to work on the accounts and projects that we all dream of when we're in that space. And that singular focus has allowed me to excel and to achieve whatever I think I needed to achieve so that I can at least in my mind, say for a period of time, the work that we did, our stature in the industry was world class, competitive in the world, maybe not podium standard, but somewhere in the top 20. We're in there somewhere and then we got to do that.
- [06:27]
B
So I have a question. Doesn't design have many different arms or branches you can go into?
- [06:32]
A
Certainly it does. And some of my friends went into those branches.
- [06:35]
B
Okay, so what about you? How many branches did you cover? Or are you saying you only did one?
- [06:40]
A
The umbrella term is called graphic design, but underneath that are several subdisciplines and you could pursue any of those things and feel like you are a graphic designer. So the one that a lot of people understand is identity design. So you're designing the marks, the business communication systems for an enterprise. And then there's editorial design. So anything for magazines and books, things like that, you can include book design in there. So you're dealing with vast amounts of copy and just depends on the schedule. Magazines, 30 days, books, months, if not a year. So the turnaround is just a little bit different. And then there's something called entertainment design, which is marketing materials for movies and TV shows. So the one sheets, the posters, the billboards and things that support an entertainment property. I think those are the major categories and there's a fourth one called packaging. And then there's probably like retail design, point of purchase, display, signage, window display systems within three dimensional environments. And there's a lot more. But those are the general categories I can think of off the top of my head. There's one other one that I cannot not say, which is web design. So digital interface, user interface design, user experience design. Now when I got outta school, web design wasn't a thing yet. It was interactive, CD rom. Web was still relatively new. Motion design was relatively new. So those are two emerging industries and fields that then started to gobble up all the design talent. So people saw that the decline of entertainment marketing materials was happening and then they would move into the space. I moved into motion design. But I think year one and two of our business, we did every single thing that you could ask for. I literally designed a bunch of logos for whoever would ask. I would design identity systems. I would do motion design, meaning moving, typography and graphics for mostly TV commercials. I probably did some product like light product, packaging design. So we dabbled in lots of different things and I think we built a website or two. And then I realized by doing all these things, I was good at none of these things. And so I wanted to be good at something. And it became very apparent to me I needed to focus in. So we focus on emotion design. And so we pretty much. And the way the market works is pretty brilliant. If you don't actively work on acquiring clients, they don't actually call you. So it wasn't like we had to make a big announcement. We're no longer doing this kind of work. We just focused on motion design. And people just stopped calling us. Sometimes they would call us. I'm like, I don't do that work anymore, I'm sorry. And I would just focus on what it is I want to do. Now if somebody's really astute and they understand their industry really well, they would say, but Chris, motion design has a bunch of sub design categories in there too. And I'm like, yes, it's true. So you can see. And this is where I'll cite Mr. Blair ends. It's like when you have a focus, a niche, it doesn't actually end. It's just the door that leads to more doors. But you can't just be sitting there thinking, I'm not going to go through any door because I'm afraid of committing to something.
- [09:43]
B
So how did you know it was motion design for you? Because, as you know, I'm facing a challenge in trying to focus out on something much like what you did here.
- [09:54]
A
Yeah. How did I know it was going to be motion design? I just looked at whatever I was most passionate about doing. So of all these industries and fields, this one presented the most challenge to me. The greatest opportunity, the most fun, the thing that would light my soul on fire. And also it was booming, so it was easy. Like, acquiring clients is not going to be that hard because there's a lot of demand for this. How do I know that? Because I was considered for jobs that I'm not qualified for. And the amount of money that was being thrown around signaled to me quite clearly this is an economic opportunity. So I'm not going to put my head in the sand. I'm going to go for.
- [10:31]
B
Strikes me that your description lined up very closely with the Ikigai for principles there.
- [10:38]
A
Yeah. I want to have fun. I want to be celebrated. I want to make an s ton of money doing it. So you try and look for those vectors and say, where's the overlap?
- [10:46]
B
How did you know motion design was fun for you?
- [10:50]
A
Because 2D static design was boring. Because when I was in school, I felt like I could do this for a long time, but I've already figured out how to make things look good with type, and I'm not even done with school yet, so I'm going to need something that's going to challenge me.
- [11:05]
B
Yeah. So I keep thinking back to this thing of you saw where the puck was going and you chose to go where it was going instead of where it was at. So that's definitely one key piece. It was something that you felt really passionate about. It was something that sounds like it was actually intellectually stimulating for you versus 2D design. And I keep thinking, okay, what about people who are in my position where we're sort of casting about. And maybe I have a different problem from you because I feel like everything is fun. So it's sort of like my compass is broken. The needle is spinning in every direction, hence the lack of focus.
- [11:46]
A
Yeah, everything is fun. I agree with you. I have lots of fun doing lots of things. But I have to be honest with myself. Can I be world class at doing this thing? If I can't, I'm not that interested in it. I've told you many times before, I don't play to play. I play to Win. So if I don't see me winning in the future, I don't play. Like, I love volleyball, I'm 5 foot 8, I have limited hops and I'm old, so these are problems. So I'm not going to sit there and say, well, I need to develop a career in volleyball. I'm just not that good. I'm not physically built for it. I love skateboarding. I don't have that gene where I'm going to go towards a 10 foot flight of stairs and ollie off of it from the top thinking I'm going to be okay when I land. I don't have that. I have a pretty healthy fear response. I'm like, oop, I'm not going to do that because I can't afford to eat it and break an arm or a foot or something like that. And so the ones that are the very best have broken every bone in their body, attempting the impossible. And they sit there for hours at a time, jacked up shins, bruised, twisted ankles, blown up foots, whatever, feet. And that's kind of what they do. So I look at it like, well, you want to be world class at this. You want to do this for the next 10 to 20 years. If you do, then do it. And I'm not just reserving this for myself. I have asked my children the same question.
- [13:06]
B
The question in my mind, I think for most of the things that we want to do in life, or at least more than half the things we want to do in life, if we just spend enough time with a thing, we'll probably get good at it. So there's the question of you can probably get good at a lot of the things that you're interested in. But I think first the major hurdle to get over is to even figure out what it is you want to do.
- [13:29]
A
Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that though. I don't agree. Just because you decide to work on something, you can be really good. Some people are just not coordinated. Some people are vertically challenged, they're just not that tall. Some people don't think that fast on their feet. Some people have low emotional intelligence. And to try to say, like, I'm going to be a person who works the crowd who can do this. You can, but you're overcoming a lot of obstacles and you can get there, but you've got your work cut out for you. I would rather say, like, let's lean into the innate talents that you have, the latent talent that you already have, and let's build that up so that you have the highest possibility for success.
- [14:05]
B
You were talking about the latent talents, and the question in my mind was, but how do we ever figure out what those latent talents are? What would you recommend helping someone discover this latent talent that they could maybe go do something with?
- [14:20]
A
What I would do is I would ask people what you enjoyed doing as a child, because a lot of it's been repressed or suppressed. And they're usually good indicators. Like if you enjoyed building things with your hands and you were told that that's no way to make a living, then you put that away. Like when you were younger and you enjoyed telling stories and making people laugh, maybe that's what you should have been doing. But then people said to you, stop being so goofy. Stop talking all the time. You talk too much, then you'll put that away. So usually all the clues are there. They're just about you revisiting the past. Because before you were confused or made to feel less than, you kind of just pursue what came natural to you. That's what we're trying to do, is help people find what was natural to them. Because if you tap into that, I think you have a distinct competitive advantage over others who don't. Like a lot of comics and actors, they were clems and they would always tell stories and they would gather on the family get togethers for Thanksgiving, for Christmas or whatever, Hanukkah, and they would try to make everyone laugh and they would do impersonations of an uncle or an auntie, and everyone would laugh and they like that. They have the gift of bringing joy and laughter to other people. And if they carry that into adulthood, they're probably the ones doing what they do.
- [15:42]
B
Going back to something else you said earlier too, because you said you would go back to what you enjoyed doing as a child. And my first thought was, I didn't have anything like coaching as a child. But then maybe you already knew what I was thinking. And you said, but maybe if you were told to stop talking. And I was like, oh my gosh, that is literally the number one thing I've been told my entire life by my parents, my teachers, maybe even other kids, like, stop talking so much. And probably the second most thing my parents had always told me was, stop asking so many goddamn questions. And if you look at my life now, that is pretty much my entire job. I'm like a professional listener, but also a professional question asker. And I spend all of my time just talking to people. And I love it. I have all of these memories surfacing about myself. I'm like, huh, maybe it actually makes sense now. So there's one. I remember this activity. My dad had a video camera. And this is back in the 80s, so video camera was humongous. And he would give me the video camera and it actually had a tape in there. And then I would sit there, I would position the video camera, I would type up some sort of brief or report on the old fashioned typewriter, you know, the ones with the keys that's like, clunk, clunk, clunk, you know, And I would make myself a report and then I would sit in front of the video camera, I would roll film and then I would read the report like I was Connie Chung. So I just pretended to be like a broadcaster all the time. And so I remember, I think that was one of the points of disappointment for my father when I told him that I was switching away from being an English major in college to math. And he said, you're just trying to be like your brother, aren't you? And I was like, what? My brother didn't even cross my mind. I chose math because I thought I was good at it. I have a certain logic to my thinking that I think naturally kind of meshes with that. But then my dad's response was, you should be a journalist. And I was like, why, dad? And he goes, because that's all you ever did as a child. You pretended to be a broadcaster, a journalist. And I was like, that's stupid, Dad. I didn't understand why he was saying that. I think by the time we had this conversation, I'm 18 or 19, and what was going through my mind was I didn't have the personality for it. That's how I perceived myself.
- [18:13]
A
So my idea, my observation about revisiting your childhood, there's a lot there. So every time you do something because you think this is what I should be doing versus what you know you should be doing, that's where the problem is.
- [18:29]
B
So in my mind, I was constantly weighing like, is this something that I can actually make a living? Can I survive off of this thing? And I didn't. I didn't have my parents really explain to me why choosing something only based on financial aspects was a really poor decision. It couldn't be the only parameter in your decision making today. Now, I know you know there's a reason why I say if you have no goals in life, then you're probably going to make money your goal. Because that's the most visible thing to you, because you haven't been taught how to set goals. And I think in the course of our conversation today, earlier you said, you have to set a clear goal. What's your one year, personally and professionally? And I was like, chris, but that, like, even the setting of the goal is actually the hardest step for a lot of people. It's like, you gotta know what you want.
- [19:21]
A
I don't mind the question, what do you want to do? It's not usually how it's asked. The way it's usually asked is what do you want to do when you grow up? Which has a lot of implications. It may be you've internalized the second part to that question, but maybe a different question can be for children devoid of the need to make money. Like, if you're independently wealthy, what brings you most joy? What is that thing? And then to encourage children just to play, because in the play is where it's good. And all we have to do is just leave around a lot of instruments for them to play and just watch.
- [19:57]
B
Maybe there's no really wrong choice as long as you're coming into it with the energy of I'm here to explore and really discover myself. And that's one of those parts that I think we as parents or as adults, we don't instill enough of that in kids today. There's no safety in the exploration. Maybe that's why I have a job, you know, maybe that's why I have clients. Because the need for safety tends to be one of the primary drivers, but also the blockers for wherever it is they want to go.
- [20:26]
A
I have to ask you this question, the question you've already mentioned. What do you see yourself doing in a year that you're not going to switch gears on? Because all I've seen you do in the years in which I've known you, switching gears all the time. So the problem with switching gears all the time is that you can never get to that state of being world class.
- [20:47]
B
Well, as you know, I've been struggling to answer this question. And for me, it feels like I keep drawing circles that grow smaller and smaller. They are concentric, so they're not like, here's a circle over here and then here's a totally different circle over there. It is narrowing in. And where I'm at so far is it's gotta be something around people that has been my number one fascination my entire life for as long as I can remember, even as a child. But then if you ask myself or if you ask me right, what's my long Term, vision. And I've already told you this, I would kill for the opportunity to have my own talk show one day.
- [21:27]
A
So if you want to be a host to a show, you have to figure out what kind of show you want to have, who's going to show up, what makes you unique and different, and you can start to design your life around that. But here's the question I have for you. It's less true this day today than it was before, but are you in the place where lots of people like you are doing what you do so you can be surrounded by them? So if I wanted to be a talk show host, I would move to Los Angeles and I would get a job somewhere when they're hosting these kinds of shows, because you can learn so much by watching people work. And that's why I think if you want to be this person that you're talking about, you need to be around people that are already doing it to whatever level which you can get access to.
- [22:13]
B
That is very true. Because when you're a child, but not even as a child, even as an adult, you only see what you see up to that point, which is not very much. Yeah. And I think beyond just seeing the nuts and bolts of how these things work, it's like you get something so much more important, which is to see that it can be done because you've met people who have done it. So then that gives you the hope that it could be true for you, too.
- [22:40]
A
I just got back From Made on YouTube, traveling to New York, and they have 40 creators there, Marques Brownlee, Mark Rober, and they have other name people there. I'm like, dang, everybody's here is doing something important, and they're showing highlight reels and clips and things that their general community have made. I don't really participate in this world, but I felt very inspired that 39 other people who do what I do at different levels of success and commitment, they're in this room. And I just felt so energized. When you're around your people, you feel that way because otherwise you're on a deserted island just thinking about your crazy idea. Joel, I want to wrap this up. How do we end this then?
- [23:24]
B
I mean, there's two ways. The first thought that came into my mind was, what's the one feeling we want people to take away from our conversation? For me, it's hope, some level of feeling inspired that you can actually go do what it is you want to do. There are no wrong answers. So stop trying to be the student in the schoolroom with a teacher where you're afraid of being wrong. There are no wrong answers. But then the other thought that came to my mind was, your brand is all about hard truths, gently spoken. So then, what's the hard truth in this episode for people?
- [24:03]
A
Here's the thing. Life already tells you exactly whether you're moving in the right or wrong direction. Because if you wake up every day and you dreading the day, looking forward towards the end of the week, and Monday is the most horrible day for you, and if you woke up one day and you said to yourself, is this the life that my younger self dreamt of having? And if the answer is not an emphatic yes, then the answer is no, it's not. And you have to make a decision. You can say, you know what? These are the cards I was dealt. I made the best of it. I'm going to be 100% committed to this and there's no problem whatsoever. But if you're of the other type, the type was like, yeah, I'm not feeling this, and I've been not feeling this for a very long time. I just have not given myself permission. I say to you, do not waste another minute, day, week, month sitting on this thing. You have to sit there and get in alignment with yourself and do the exercise of revisiting your younger self and travel through time in your mind to think about all the things that gave you so much joy without the concern of making money. Because if you pursue the things that you're very passionate about, the stuff that energizes you, you will have a distinct competitive advantage over everyone else. The trick in all of this is probably bring that information to someone who's a little bit wiser, more accomplished in their life and career, and say, help me make sense of this pile of stuff that I'm interested in. Is there a better career that's more aligned with my higher self that I can pursue and try to figure that out. It's not something that you can do easily or that you can do alone. So this is where I highly recommend you. Reaching out to someone you like, you respect and trust explicitly because they're going to tell you to do something that's going to sound very strange to you. And if you stay in that pocket for long enough and you put in the work, I think you start to move yourself towards the things that you were meant to do in this lifetime. And life is short, so don't waste another day. That's my hard truth. Hopefully it was gently told I would
- [25:59]
B
say that was gentler than a lot of your other messages.
- [26:02]
A
This one has to be gentle because if I beat people down, they won't do anything. They'll just feel bad about themselves.