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- [00:00]
A
An expression I heard, I think it was from Blair Enns. He said that if I was the ruler of the world, if I could just decree a law and put it into motion like one of Newton's laws, then it would be that you must say what you think. And when he said this, it just rang true in my ear, because many, many years ago, it was said less succinctly by my business coach, Kieran McLaren. He says, if you have something on your mind, what is the thing that's holding you back from saying it? And this is what I credit as one of the biggest breakthroughs that I had in my 13 years of coaching with Kier. And this sounds so dumb, stupid, simple, that you would think, hey, dummy, who doesn't do that? What's going on? Well, I'm going to give you some context, everybody. Now, I've grown up as a Asian American refugee, immigrant, and so I'm not used to speaking up. I'm not used to saying what I think. And also, out of respect for my elders or people in authority, you don't really question authority too much. You just do the work. So as I carry that with me into adulthood, into my business, there are things that I think that I want to say, but I have a hard time saying them. And so when we get on new business calls, I really struggled with saying what it is that I thought. I wondered what the budget was. I wanted to know how many other people were bidding on this project, if we were the third bid. So then he tells me, I think this is in the early 2000s. He gives me this permission slip. How do you know all these things that you know about the client? You're making a lot of assumptions. Why don't you just ask? And I said to him, kind of dumbfounded, what do you mean? I can just ask? It's just ask. How does that sound like? What does that sound like when you say it? And he says it, and he says it in the most basic, direct way. Here's an example, as the situation is where service provider or production company for advertising agencies, and he said something like this. He said, I'm seeing this idea. What inspired this? What were you thinking about? And did you have a vision for how this might be completed? If this were a home run for you, what would that look like? How closely do we need to adhere to what's been done before? And when you say radically different, can you give me an example of how different we're talking about? So these are basic questions. There's nothing complicated about it. And I found it to be extremely empowering to be able to do this. So I take this lesson and I apply it across the 22 plus years in which I run a business in the service design space. And it's served me really well. And then I think to myself, where else can I use this? Can I say what I think to my staff, my team? And then begins a long journey of learning how to communicate in nonviolent, non judging, non assumptive ways. But that's the second part. The first part is just having the courage to say what you think. Because we also know what the opposite of that is, which is when we don't get a straight answer from somebody when they're being evasive. It really annoys us because we're thinking like, why can't I get a straight answer from you? This is why people say, as a virtue, I'm a straight shooter. I just tell you like it is. I speak my mind and these are very important concepts for us to understand.
- [03:13]
B
Lately, as I've been contemplating how I show up online, I have realized that there is a part of myself that I'm holding back with what I have chosen to share online. I have said what I thought, but I realized I haven't shared fully what I thought and I found in one of my most recent posts. I've actually gone through two or three iterations of the same post just on different platforms, and I found myself softening my words and I realized this is what it is. I'm afraid to say what I think. As a woman, I don't want to be perceived as too angry. I'm not so much worried about how other people will necessarily think of me, but I am in this one area. I don't want to be perceived as the angry Asian woman.
- [04:03]
A
I try my best to buckle the stereotypes of what people think of an Asian man. What is a negative Asian man stereotype that you think you want to stay away from so that you don't cast us all in the same light? I'm trying to figure out the kinds of things you have to deal with.
- [04:22]
B
So definitely wanting to seem smart and competent. Then there's the team player and then there's the fitting in.
- [04:30]
A
Let's go with one of them fitting in. I have no desire to fit in. I want to fit out.
- [04:35]
B
That's a rough one for me, man.
- [04:37]
A
Is it?
- [04:38]
B
Let's look at Ireland. Last year, you and I went on the same trip with Brian Collins and his group. I don't know what I was expecting other than General social anxiety, because that is me. Hard introvert. But when I got there, there was a whole other dimension that I suddenly realized, oh, my God, I don't fit in. And I feel like. Like a glaring sore thumb here. Okay, Number one, there's the fact that I'm not in the traditional creative category because almost everybody there was some sort of designer. But then number two was how I was dressed.
- [05:12]
A
Do you have a survival strategy when you're put in a situation like that?
- [05:16]
B
This is not an exaggeration, but I am literally telling myself in those situations, don't run. Like, do not flee. And then number two is, don't cry.
- [05:28]
A
I don't mean to make light of how awkward it must have been for you, because I do feel that pain deeply at times. Luckily, less and less every year as I get older and older. Thank God. This whole idea that I don't look or behave or have the pedigree that everyone else has. But what are you feeling and seeing?
- [05:46]
B
What I remember feeling and thinking was, oh, my God, I feel so plain because here we were. There's you dressed fabulously, as always. Not everybody on that trip was dressed fab, okay? But what I suddenly noticed in this group of like, 20 something creatives, every person had at least one little piece of flair. So I remember sort of catching myself in hand and being like, you got to do the best you can with what you got. And it is about you inside. It is about how you show up with these people and how you make them feel and just being yourself. And maybe you don't have the fine feathers that everybody else has, but we're going to work on that. By God, we are going to work on that.
- [06:30]
A
When we get back, I want to tie it back to this whole thing about saying what you think. Because if I think this and I try to hide what I think, it just festers inside my body, and then it manifests through everything else that I'm doing. So I want to say that when you have negative feelings and thoughts, that the best way to get rid of them is to speak them out loud. Just say them out loud. That's why we say what we think, because it can just compound in our mind and to build up and build up, and it's like eventually just eats you up inside.
- [06:59]
B
I agree on saying what it is that you're feeling for this thing that we're talking about, with the whole, here's how I look versus here, how everybody else looks on this trip. And I think the whole idea of saying what you think is actually multidimensional here because, yeah, I could have told you, hey, man, I'm feeling a little like fish out of water. And you would have been like, well, duh. And then I could have let that go. There's the other idea, too, right? So there's actually speaking your feelings, but then the clothes actually saying what you think as well.
- [07:35]
A
There's two ways to say what you think that I can think of. You can say, I'm so negative, or if you want to be more social. You're like. You're so positive. And that's how you flip it. So you're like, God, I just. I just love the feathers in your boa. What is that? Or tell me more about that brand that you're wearing. I love the fit. I don't even know what to describe that as. And I just think it's such an unusual combination. I've not seen that before. And then all of a sudden, you're taking your awkwardness and your focus too much on yourself, and you focus it on others, but you're not trying to get them to fix you. You're just sharing very genuinely what you think in a positive way. So let's take us back to Dublin, and let's address what you're feeling and thinking in a more constructive, positive way.
- [08:22]
B
What is it about Jesse's style? Like, it's so good, but I can't put my finger on it.
- [08:27]
A
I think that's a natural way to release some of that stress that you're feeling. Why don't we switch roles? This'll be an interesting one. You're you, but you're the one with the fashion sense. And me, I'm not the one with the fashion sense. I'm like, hey, Jewel, can I bend your ear on something?
- [08:39]
B
Yeah, man. What's up?
- [08:41]
A
Well, I know you know how to put things together, but I've been eyeballing Jess, and I think I heard that she went to Fashion Square and everything, and, you know that fit she wore to dinner the other night with, like, the white fur and the bag and all that stuff? I just love the way that looks. What is your take on that? Like, how does one put that outfit together? What's going on? Because I can appreciate, but I don't understand it.
- [09:02]
B
I would really, like. This is for real. I would actually ask you, well, what's the first thing that caught your eye about it?
- [09:08]
A
Okay. And I would tell you. It's like the. The different shapes, the material, the silhouettes fire. And they're so unusual. Like, I think any one of them could be kind of cool, but the fact that you put all of them together, which just blow my mind.
- [09:22]
B
Yeah. And then I would tell you the fact that you just said that already shows you actually have a pretty good grasp of how this works.
- [09:30]
A
So instead of me coming up to you and saying, oh, my God, I feel so ugly right now, I feel so plain, Jane, or whatever, I've been mulling over this over the last couple of days and I'm just feeling terrible about myself, or, hey, your fit is so fire right now. Just blow my mind, because that's just a compliment. That's so over the top, I don't know what to say anymore. It's a conversation ender, not a conversation opener. And I think that's kind of important because we're actually trying to learn something, show respect to people, but also just to air out some of the discomfort we have with ourselves and give me an opportunity to slowly let the. The toxic air out. And I think that's kind of an important way to set that up. So we want to make it open and not close. We don't want it to be binary, and we don't want it to be like, oh my God, like, you're so hot. I don't know what to do with myself. And then that person's like, okay, now they're creeped out a little bit.
- [10:21]
B
I'm having some thoughts here because I think there are several dimensions at play here when the role play, the situation we're describing, because when we are in conversation with someone else, this is where it becomes a balancing act of being mindful in the social context that you are in and of being aware how much is appropriate to bring and display to that other person.
- [10:51]
A
I don't think it's a reframe. I think it's just learning how to speak to other humans. I think if you start, and I do sometimes do little lectures or workshops on communication, which is to think about the outcome that you want first. What is the outcome of you saying that statement? Like, what is the outcome that you want? When we talk about saying what we think, there has to be this other thing underneath that, which is what is the purpose of saying what you think is. So then you can reverse engineer how you want to say what you think. So if you want advice on how to dress better, if you want to go on an emergency shopping trip, then you would say very, very different things. The mental lift, like, you can't. In dialogue with someone, you can't make them Think so hard that all the energy is spent on just trying to understand and unpack what the heck you want. It's much easier. Like can you pass the soda? Can you hand me the salt please? Versus oh, this doesn't taste right. Oh Christ. What do you want me to do with that right now? It's just too nebulous, it's too abstract. So part of communication and saying what you think is to be a little bit more precise, be clear with or ask and be just very cognizant of the constraints that we're working with.
- [12:02]
B
Yeah, I think that's fair because you have to think about like what that person is actually capable of giving you back. I mean, number one, you have to think about what it is you want. But then number two, is this person even the right person for that? And then if they are, then number three, which is what can they give you of what you're looking for? And maybe some people will say even number four, which is then how can you package this in a way that they might be likely to want to help you?
- [12:31]
A
Let's bring this back to the real world now. Let's just say in a business context that is an awkward social situation where the power dynamics aren't clear. If anything, you have slightly less of a hand than the other person. So if you want to know the budget, don't beat around the bush like what are we hoping to achieve? And oh God, please don't get there, let's just get right to it. And this is the beauty of direct, precise communication. That's non judging with a clear outcome in mind. Julie, you tell me something that creative people have a hard time saying what they think and then you say it the way they say it. And I'll try and find a different way to say it.
- [13:09]
B
I know they have a hard time with just stating the price when the client wants the price. And it seems that almost every creative I run across will say, you know what, let me send you a proposal.
- [13:24]
A
We've already failed because we've waited for the clients to ask us about budget and price. We should be the first one to bring it up and you delaying that. So let's stop doing that. Everybody discomfort around talking about money is a sign of poor business acumen. Blare ends so you have to be able to talk about money because money is one of those tenets of business, being able to do business. What am I getting, how much and by when? I need to know those basic three things. If you can't get to that, I Start to worry about your ability to do business. When the client or prospect brings it up first, we're already in trouble. So when the client asks you, how much is this going to be, what would you like to say if you had all the courage in the world?
- [14:02]
B
I would like to say the price. If it's, for example, 50K, then I would like to say it's going to start at 50k.
- [14:09]
A
Okay. And is that a fair price for what you do?
- [14:12]
B
I believe so.
- [14:13]
A
Why? Some hesitancy. What price can you say that you feel emphatically 100% confident? That's a very fair price.
- [14:20]
B
I would say emphatically. A lot of times it's probably going to be lower than that.
- [14:25]
A
Then how much?
- [14:27]
B
Like 35k maybe.
- [14:29]
A
Okay, so why were you saying 50k at the start?
- [14:31]
B
Because I'm a creative, and I feel like I need to prove my worth.
- [14:36]
A
So 30k, you don't feel like you have to prove your worth?
- [14:38]
B
No, 30k. I start to feel resentful, but I know that the value is more than there.
- [14:43]
A
Oh, okay. We're talking about a pretty small gap between these two numbers from you feeling great and also not sure if you're worth it to. I'm going to be resentful if I take this price. Let's take off any price where you would feel resentful to do business with a person, because that should never be an option. You can't begin a relationship by saying, this is totally screwed. So what price would that be then?
- [15:06]
B
I would say the 45k probably.
- [15:09]
A
Okay, I'm gonna say 45k. What are you afraid that they're gonna accuse you of when you say 45k?
- [15:14]
B
The stuff that they've heard a thousand times, which is like, why are you charging so much when this other guy I spoke to was charging, like, 30k?
- [15:24]
A
They're gonna accuse you of this. Like, as soon as you say 45k, I want you to put yourself in the mind of the client. When you say it's 45,000, they're like, that's too much or what? Maybe they're like, who do you think you are?
- [15:35]
B
So an accusation being like, you're trying to take advantage of me.
- [15:38]
A
Right. Do you think they might say something like that?
- [15:40]
B
I've heard it. Yeah. So I think a lot of people do fear that.
- [15:43]
A
Okay, so is that why you're reluctant
- [15:46]
B
to say the price a lot of times? Yeah. Trying to avoid that accusation. Okay, so if I'm thinking back to creatives, they are afraid to say the Price without attaching proof. So that's why they want to send the proposal. Look at all these things that you're going to get.
- [16:01]
A
Who's proof valuable to, the seller or the buyer?
- [16:04]
B
I don't know. I would say the buyer.
- [16:06]
A
Yeah. So in order for us to give them proof that they want, don't we want to know what kind of proof they require?
- [16:14]
B
Yeah.
- [16:15]
A
Okay. So do you see a problem there?
- [16:17]
B
Yeah, it's a mismatch. There's an assumption that this would be the proof that would get them to sign with us.
- [16:23]
A
In some cases it is, in some cases not. But do you like to guess? I don't. Not when there's $45,000 on the line. So my advice to you is, why don't you wait for them to ask for proof before you give them proof? In fact, usually by providing proof before we're asked for it, not only is it going to be the wrong kind of proof, it's going to be a sign that there's reasons to not trust us. When you feel that it's too much or they think you're taking advantage of them, if that's your greatest fear, I would just speak it. So now what we do is we step in, assuming that's my greatest fear. So then you, the client, ask me again and I'll respond, how much is
- [17:04]
B
this going to cost?
- [17:05]
A
I'm afraid you might think this is too much. I'm afraid that once you hear this price, you might think I'm trying to take advantage of you. But I'm going to tell you, I'd love to hear your response. It's going to be $45,000.
- [17:19]
B
Yeah. I'm going to have to think about that.
- [17:22]
A
Wonderful. I know it's a lot of money, so what do you need to think about?
- [17:26]
B
I got to see if we can afford that because we had budgeted closer to around 30, 35, and we've spoken to some people that came in closer to that range.
- [17:38]
A
Is there any reason why you didn't go with them immediately since they were in your range?
- [17:44]
B
We just wanted to talk to a variety of people and just see what all of us out there.
- [17:48]
A
Okay, let me ask you this question. If the budget was 35k, would that be enough for you to sit confidently to go with us, or you still need to shop it around?
- [18:00]
B
It's probably not so much of needing to shop it around, but I do need to check with our team and make sure. But at least personally, I think you would be a great choice for us.
- [18:09]
A
Okay. Thanks for saying that. And feel free to say otherwise because I believe in clear and direct communication. So we're talking about a 10k spread, which in my mind I'm trying to close, but I'm having a hard time. Do you mind if I tell you why?
- [18:24]
B
Please do.
- [18:25]
A
This may be hard for you to believe, but every time we've done a project like this for less than 35, I wind up being quite resentful because there's a lot of work to be done and I know what happens. Usually they pick the cheaper of the two alternatives and they wind up paying not just once, but they pay twice. I'd rather just be above board with you and say this is what it's going to take, realistically.
- [18:46]
B
I appreciate that. I think we're going to have to have some conversations in the team and maybe go back to some of these other people, because I would like to check.
- [18:56]
A
Okay. Well, is there anything else I can answer for you then?
- [19:00]
B
No. You have actually been very educational. This was helpful.
- [19:05]
A
Perfect. Should I follow up on you or should I just wait to hear back?
- [19:09]
B
I will reach back out to you within a week.
- [19:13]
A
Okay. And if I don't hear from you in a week, should I presume it's dead or should I follow up?
- [19:17]
B
It never hurts to send me a reminder because sometimes I do forget.
- [19:20]
A
I'll put in my calendar right now, call you or email you on the eighth day. Is that okay?
- [19:24]
B
Yeah, sounds good.
- [19:25]
A
Okay, wonderful. Hope to hear from you before then.
- [19:27]
B
All right, thanks.
- [19:28]
A
Let's break that down. Was there anything difficult, weird, or anything? I'm trying to show people how to say what you think.
- [19:34]
B
Not difficult for me, listening as a seller, but I can see that people would immediately have difficulty saying the part that you said, which is, I'm afraid you're going to think it's too much. I'm afraid you're going to think I'm taking advantage of you. So you were doing the accusation audit, but hearing it actually piqued my curiosity because I was like, ooh, what is he going to say? So I actually think it's a great way to tee up the price because if it piques curiosity, and it also, I think, triggered internally for me that I wanted to put you at ease. So by you saying, I'm afraid to tell you these things, I was already coming into it. Oh, no, no, no. Like, it'll be fine.
- [20:18]
A
So the point of the conversation today is about saying what you think. We mostly covered saying what we think in social dynamics in person. And the reason why we went there is because how you do one thing is how you do everything. So if you can make small practice or more small steps every single day in terms of saying what you think to yourself, to others, that eventually this will bleed over into your online life, which a lot of people still struggle with. I don't think that someone is so clear, so direct, so transparent and vulnerable and self aware in real life that all of a sudden they get on the computer and they start writing or producing a piece of content. Then all of a sudden a switch from flips and they're like, I can't say anything. I think it's usually indicative of who you are in your personal life. You're tiptoeing, you're worrying about how people perceive you. There's a performative aspect to the way that you carry yourself. You're so wrapped up in the thoughts of other people that you're so, I guess so self conscious about what it is you want to say. Or perhaps you were raised in a type of family or culture where everyone said everything in the most violent way possible and you don't want to perpetuate that. I understand that this is the communication game and one of the most durable skills of the 21st century is the ability to clearly articulate and communicate what your thoughts and feelings are and is a skill worth having. So thank you everybody for listening to this episode. I'm glad that you made it to the very end. I hope this was valuable and productive to you. As always, I'm hosting this series of conversations with Jewelry. If you've enjoyed it, please drop us a note. Follow us on social media. I'm Hechrisdoe and Tsjewelkim I T S
- [21:58]
B
J U L E K I M
- [22:01]
A
Let us know how this episode hits if you have other questions or if you have some challenges. On that note, everybody, I wish you well. See you next time.