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The Futur with Chris Do
The Art of Arguing Less and Communicating More w/ Jefferson Fisher | Ep 392
01:23:29
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- [00:00]
Chris
On today's podcast is Jefferson Fisher, who's been able to grow millions of followers on social media. Over 6 million on Instagram and 1.4 on TikTok. He is the communications expert and he's a fifth generation attorney. He's the New York Times bestselling author of the Next conversation, how you can argue less and talk more. And on today's episode, he's going to answer this question that you all have on your mind, which is, how do you become a better communicator? How do you find the words and the tone to communicate your true intention?
- [00:33]
Jefferson Fisher
I'm Jefferson Fisher and you're listening to the future.
- [00:39]
Chris
My story with you begins with a friend. His name is Mo. And Mo's like, you got to check this guy out. And he sends me one of your clips. I think it's TikTok originally, but maybe it was Instagram, I can't remember. This is like a little over a year ago, and I'm watching you deliver something in the car, which is, I think, super hard to do. Just you. I imagine you holding your iPhone or something and you're recording. And I'm blown away by your communication skills and how warm and earnest you are and how applicable the things that you say are. So I'm thrilled to have this conversation with you because I think you're going to help me solve a big problem that I have. People ask me this all the time, so I'm going to have you do all the heavy lifting here. How does one become so good at communication?
- [01:23]
Jefferson Fisher
If you want to be better at communication, you first have to understand that it can only happen in your timing. People will often try to rush conversations, they'll rush issues. A lot of the times that leads to arguments, leads to disagreements, it leads to bad feelings, it leads to assumptions. So when you rush conversation, it kind of presents this quicksand. Not the kind of quicksand that exists now. I'm talking about, like when you're a kid, the quicksand that you think was just everywhere and you're always just, you know, step one foot in it, you disappear completely. Whenever you find that you are being rushed in your conversation, bad things can happen. Have you ever been in a conversation with somebody and they're like, hey, do you have five minutes? And you go, yeah, sure. And it's rarely, if ever five minutes, or if somebody is trying to question you about something and they want your opinion, right then the conversation, right now, it's a bad time, you're having it over dinner when it should Be a good time. Or you're right about to go to sleep and your spouse rolls over and goes, hey, so I've been thinking about this thing. And they drop it, like, right before you're closing your eyes, like, what's going on? So we often find that we wait until we have 10% of our battery for 100% of a conversation. And when you have that disproportionality, bad things can happen.
- [02:50]
Chris
Okay, I'm feeling every word that you're saying right now for a number of different reasons. Let's talk about the one where you're about to get into bed and your partner, your spouse is like, I need to talk to you about this thing. Now, I've been guilty on both sides here. So number one, I think as a man, I often don't want to bring up, mostly just with my wife, difficult conversations. I keep punting it down until it's like, there's no more time left. Let's say one of my friends wants to stay at our house. I'm like, oh, it's not going to go well. So I just wait and wait, thinking that there's going to be a great time, and now time has run out, and I'll bring it up last minute like that. And then she gives me this look like, you knew about this for like a month. Why did you wait till now? So on that side, I've been guilty, but I want to hear from the other side, which is my wife will bring up something right before we're about to go to bed. I'm like, I'm so tired right now. And we engage, and the conversation is not very fruitful, oftentimes. And sometimes it can lead to another fight. I'm like, oh, gosh, I just wanted to go to sleep. What do we do in a situation like that?
- [03:50]
Jefferson Fisher
Well, it's kind of this advice. If you have all the time in the world and you have no time in the world, if you go, I can do this anytime. You typically never get it done because it's not set right there on your plate. So if you. It is something important, which you don't want to wait to do is like, in my world, the worst time is we wait for the kids, go down for bed. Why? Because we get home, we have two kids, 5 and 7, and we're doing dinner, we're doing bath, we're doing the whole routine. And they finally go down, you know, 8:30 or so, and that's the first time I get to look at my wife and go, hi. What's your name? You're like, oh, good to. Good to see you. Where. Who are we? And then what do we kind of do? We kind of decompress. Maybe talk about your day, Maybe not. Maybe it's like, look, I got to go back to work. I got to get something knocked out for either one of us. And you wait until these very small moments where you go, hey, I need to talk to you about something. And you're like, okay, I was getting ready to kind of come down for this. I'm landing my plane. Why are you telling me I got to go back up again? That's the worst. That's like. It's like going on a plane. You taxi and you're waiting, and they're like, actually, there's a plane in front of our gate, and we gotta wait. You're like, that's. This is the absolute word. I just want to go home. So let's do them both ways. If somebody is approaching you in that kind of moment where you feel like, I don't have it in me, instead of getting upset about it, it is make it more enticing for them to postpone it. So rather than me going, do we really have to talk about this right now? Which is the worst thing to say, why? Because they feel like they're alone in it. They feel like you're dismissing them. They're feeling like, why am I the only one that's trying to help out in this marriage, this relationship? Instead, it's, hey, if we can have this tomorrow, if we can put this on the counter, I'm going to be much more aware in it. I'm going to be a lot better. I'm going to be a lot more focused. Inattentive audit. If I talk to you right now, I know I'm not going to be my full self. So first piece of advice is postpone it for the right reasons. If you ask anybody, say, hey, if we can push this to tomorrow, is that going to be hard? I'll be better in this conversation. Nobody's going to say, no, no, no, no. I need to have this conversation now while you're in the worst state. They're going to say, okay, yeah, that's. That's fine. So if you can't, number one, postpone, schedule it. That's the biggest thing. You schedule everything else. I've seen your content. I know you're all about having your time blocks for things and being very efficient with your calendar. Why not do the most important thing? That's even more of a priority in your life, and that's with your, your partner, your spouse. Schedule those hard conversations. It feels inorganic. I don't care. You need, you have to schedule it. Because if you don't, it's like if we have all the time in the world for it, we have no time in the world for it. Second of all is anytime when they're approaching you with that kind of, hey, I really want to do this right now. I like to use the phrase I can tell anytime I begin with I can tell because it forces you to have self awareness in the conversation. It would sound like, I can tell I am way too tired for this right now. I can tell I'm feeling off. I can tell I'm not feeling myself. I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. I can tell I'm not prepared for this conversation. If you can be that clear with the person you are closest with the most, why wouldn't you be to say, I can tell I'm not prepared for this conversation, rather than just going, okay, yeah, all right, you want to do this? I guess we're doing this fine. Like, while your head is still on the pillow, it's not going to breed a productive conversation. It's not going to lead to a productive conversation. So those are the big two components. Now if, let's say it's the other way around, let's say in your example, you're your spouse and you need to communicate with this person. Ask when to schedule it. You don't ever want to just pop up. You don't ever say, oh, hey, something I need to talk with you about that's really super important about our day and can absolutely control all of our moods and feelings, you definitely want to schedule it. So because what's really. When somebody rolls over and goes, hey, can I talk to you about something? It's something they've been mulling on for way longer than you have, something they've been thinking about the entire day. You've been thinking about zero percent of the day. And the first time you're hearing about it is when you're trying to really go to sleep. So instead of having that moment of I'm going to push it all on you, it's giving them a roadmap. Hey, at some point, I need to talk with you about the kids schedule for tomorrow. When is best to do that? When would be most helpful to do that? The answer might be, oh, right now is good. I'm okay, we can do about it right now. But a real quick way to do that is we kind of take a temperature check how much percentage of a battery we have left. I like to use the word capacity or bandwidth. What's your capacity for a conversation about what we have coming up next week? Hey, my parents are coming in town. They want to do X, Y and Z. Is this. You want to talk about this now? You talk about it tomorrow. The answer is always going to be tomorrow. Like you said, you always find a way of pushing that conversation off. You got to schedule it or else it's not going to happen.
- [08:52]
Chris
There's a lot of things I just picked up here. Number one is when I first asked you this question, you took a minute. When I say minute, like a pause, and I notice you do that quite a bit when you're being interviewed. You'll pause, you'll think about it, and then there's. Sometimes when people are asked the question, they just immediately start saying stuff because a lot of people are verbal processors. And you'll take a minute, you'll go through what you're going through, and then you'll give a very succinct answer to what it is. And you give just the right amount of examples with practical application. So I admire that a lot. So if somebody is of that type, when they're just asked a question and they just start talking right away, what can they do to take time and space for themselves to pause and just think and sort through their ideas?
- [09:35]
Jefferson Fisher
What they need to do is make their breath the first word that they say. So rather than going straight into the conversation, rather than just start with the word vomit, let me spill out my ideas. If you just take a breath right before you respond, what it's doing is not only regulating your body, making sure you're more aware and in control of your emotions, it is signaling to the other person that what I'm about to say has been thought about, has been acknowledged. There's a difference of you asking me a question, hey, Jefferson, how was your day? And I went, it was good. It was good. Chris, it was fine. It was fine. It was a good day. Doesn't really sound like I really thought about it, but if you ask me, hey, Jefferson, how was your day? And I went, you know, Chris, it was good. It was a good day. Ups and downs, but it was good. Which one of those sounds like I actually acknowledged what you said, really thought about it, and in exchange, you actually want to hear what I'm about to say? More like, same thing with. In an interview, that's probably one of the top Things I talk about with friends that are going into an interview and they're like, hey, what should I do? The slower you answer the question, the better the interview will be. They ask you a question and you just immediately try to. It has to be as fast as possible. That's the opposite. What you are needing to exude in that moment is I can take stressful moments, including the interview that I'm in, and be able to regulate myself and show you that I'm not somebody who runs in conversation. I walk in it and whenever you slow yourself down, they're going to find that what you're saying is. They're going to even feel that what you're saying is more thought out and more intentional than if it's just off.
- [11:15]
Chris
The cuff to the best of your ability to recall. When do you first remember this being a conscious thought or effort from your part?
- [11:23]
Jefferson Fisher
I started teaching clients this very early on in my really as a first year associate. I was at a law firm that was the type that I wasn't behind a lot of partners. It was like, these are your clients. You either sink or swim, get after it. So you really go to your first trial, your first year by yourself. And I can remember training some of the first people, they get so nervous before their deposition. There's cameras, there's other people, and I'm teaching them, okay, Instead of just going right into it, they ask you a question. Instead of just having an immediate response, take a minute and some, I would say, I want you to just count one Mississippi. That's it. Just, I did all kinds of things to try and get them to remember it. And so then what I would do is I would put on the hat of being the opposing attorney and I'd say, okay, Chris, you know, you understand that you're here today. Isn't that true? And I would start to kind of pressure them and get them all kind of worked up. And I'd say, okay, this is the moment. This is where count just in your head one Mississippi. Okay, now answer. Instead of feeling like you're in their time frame, in their time space, you're controlling it. You're saying, nope, I'm the one that's driving in my lane. You can't do anything about it. So it's really, it's like teaching defensive driving verbally how to do that. Now, on the flip end of that is I'm a fifth generation, a trial attorney. All the men in my family are attorneys, women too. And my dad is this way I could come to my dad with an issue. And I'd say, we have this problem. And he'd go, yep, that's a problem. You know what I mean? Like, he was just always very, very, very keel. And so I would be. I'd be like, oh, my gosh, but they're going to be really upset. And he would take a beat and say, yep, I guess they'll be upset. That was just his type of demeanor. And so, of course, it's just genetics mirroring that my entire life. He would always exude the walk, don't run kind of mentality.
- [13:27]
Chris
I can feel my energy change just by the way that you were changing your tone and the pace in which you were talking. This is just goes to the point of, like, how much the tone and the way that you deliver the words matter. Sometimes even more than the words. Because when you are putting on that, like, that mock trial thing with the opposing counsel saying, so what were you. I just felt like, whoa, I'm going to say something probably not that smart, probably something that's going to incriminate myself right then. And you could just feel that.
- [13:57]
Jefferson Fisher
Right, right. Even if you don't mean to.
- [13:59]
Chris
Yeah, I just felt it right away because your baseline is so calm, reassuring, and just gentle and inviting, that the minute that you switch that up, I could feel it immediately. I'm sure I'm not the only one. If you're listening to this, just let us know that I'm not the only person who felt that.
- [14:17]
Jefferson Fisher
Well, the thing is, anybody can do it, Chris. It's more natural to me because this is how I was raised. This is the household I was in. I mean, I was raised on the Socratic method, and I'd come with the problems, and my dad would say, well, what do you think they would say about that? You know, like, he would always put it in position of the other person and slow me down. But if you're listening right now, if you want to sound more confident, more respected in your communication, more serious, more warm, whatever it is, all you need to do is slow down your words and lower your volume. It makes a huge impact. If you are with somebody who's always loud and very aggressive, do you want to do more of what they say or less? So like, compare it to this. If I were to say, look, Chris already told you, I'm not. I'm not going to do that versus Chris already told you, I'm not going to do that. Now, which one of those is. Let's say somebody who sounds more grounded, somebody who sounds more balanced Somebody who sounds more composed, somebody really you don't want to mess with. It's actually the person who sounds less emotional, the person who sounds less aggressive, who says, oh, no, this is not somebody I want to mess with. And it's. I'm saying the same thing. But the connotation, the feeling is very, very different.
- [15:48]
Chris
You say it, I feel it, I live it. There's so many people who will hear this and say, gosh, it just. I can't figure it out. Now, you must have worked with some clients in the courtroom where you're like, okay, just take a breath. We go real slow. And then you see them on the stand and they're like, that's got to happen, right?
- [16:07]
Jefferson Fisher
Oh, yeah, it'll happen the whole time.
- [16:08]
Chris
Okay. And when you're on break, how do you get them in that pocket again?
- [16:14]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, so you kind of have to do it without telling them about it. For example, I had this guy once, he had read some stuff on Google. He's like, oh, no, I read you need to be really short with your answers. I'm like, oh, that's all great. And on textbook, they think they got it all worked out. And despite all of my preparation with them, we had them go right into the deposition. He started out great, and it took no time at all. Chris. He was starting to step on the other attorney's questions. So before the attorney was actually finished with their question, he's already stepping on it with their answer. The question was something like, now you went that day, you first drove to your cousins and you'd be like, house? Yep, I went to their house. So he's stepping on the words, which you don't want to do, because in terms of the reason why there's a court reporter is because everything's written down. So on paper, it doesn't look good. It's what they would say. It's a messy record because you have these insertions into. Instead of a full question, a full answer. And he kept doing it. And I was like, you know better. And so in my head, I'm like, all right, this next question, I'm going to pull him out. So sure enough, he answers the last question. Stepped on it again. I said, okay, let's take a. We're just going to take a five minute break. Let's just take a little break. You want to stand up for a second? He's like, yeah, that's fine. And so we get out of the room and I just say, hey, just walk with me. And so I'm unrolling a peppermint while I'm doing it, just acting super nonchalant. I pop it in my mouth. I'm like, sit right here. We sit down. And I say, so how old are your kids again? And he was like, all right, yeah, 7 and 8. I was like, oh, that's. That's great. That's great. Ages. What'd y' all do the last week? And all of a sudden, he starts to, like, calm down. He's like, oh, we went to a movie. I was like, what movie? He's like, it's the movie with the, you know, the talking animals. I think it was like Madagascar, something like that. Madagascar, too. I was like, oh, that's. That's great. I was like, was it good? And he stops and he slows down, and he goes, yeah, I mean, it was good. You know, it was a cute movie. And I said, good. All right, you see what we're doing here? He goes, yeah. I said, that's exactly what you're going to do in there. I said, we're going to slow it down. He goes, ah, I'm stepping on it, aren't I? I said, yep, that's exactly what you're doing. All right, so let's go back and treat it just like you're talking to me right here. And sure enough, he went right back. It's like he had to hear it. He had to feel it for me to make him click rather than me pulling him out and going, hey, stop stepping on the question and let him get it all out. Okay, that's not gonna do it. But by showing the example, making him feel like it was or just right there, keeping it in the pocket, let's stay right in this momentum. You feel this. And he was like, yeah, I feel that. Okay, let's stay right here. So I use that phrase in the pocket a whole lot with him.
- [19:03]
Chris
Very interesting how you took it to a very conversational level where there's nothing for him to be nervous about and so that he can be a better performer in the courtroom. Because there shouldn't be a difference between this style of talking versus, like, when you're getting grilled by the other attorney. And I find that in sales, we can have a normal conversation, everything's going great, but when they're on a call with the client, they get all high pitch, they get really nervous and anxious, and they start talking really fast. They start doing performative things that they normally just don't do. So are we talking? There's this universal concept about communication. Like how you talk to a really good friend is how you should talk everywhere.
- [19:48]
Jefferson Fisher
My opinion. Yes. Now, I would say there's a difference in of course, course, context and environment. I'm not going to talk to a prospective client the same way I'm going to talk to my grandmother or my best friend or my dad. There's casual situations where when you and I are in sweatpants and drinking coffee, talking about life, it's not the same. But I would say the premise holds true that you generally want everybody to feel very comfortable around you. Even when you're public speaking. One of the best compliments you can get is you seem so comfortable up there. Yeah. Because when you understand that I don't have anything to prove, I'm just telling you what I know, I can be excited about what I have to share, and when I get excited about the message of what I'm giving, then I can channel that excitement into how it's going to benefit everybody else. That's a wonderful thing to be generous with your words and generous with your message. Now, if somebody is grilling you in a deposition type of setting, it is different. It's understanding that you can't make me say anything I don't want to say and you can't make me talk any faster than I'm going to respond. So when I understand that I'm the one that has control of the steering wheel at all times, it's a very confident mindset. It's a game changing type of concept. When you understand that, you say something to me, I can choose not to say anything at all. That is a pretty powerful thing. People feel like you always have to have a response that's not true. So when you're talking in front of people, even in that sales context, if you can just be you, like we have such a sixth sense of knowing when somebody's being fake. Let me tell you what a jury knows immediately, Chris. If somebody's being fake and they will destroy them. They will pour their whole case out if they feel like they're being fake. I, I can't tell you how many times I've seen a jury totally turn on somebody's case if they thought that they were being somebody that they're not. Like, you just meet somebody and go, there's something about them that doesn't. It's just this sixth sense that we have. I think it's very. I'm not sure if it's just the DNA of our caveman like abilities to go, no, some doesn't smell right about this, I'm not sure what it is, but something's not. And. And it's even people who try too hard, right? They're like, no, they're trying too hard. Like, what does that even mean? They're being somebody that they're not. Ever had somebody try to really make you like them? You know, like it's a turnoff. Now you definitely don't like them. Why? Because they're trying too hard to be liked. They're being somebody that they're not. If a witness on the stand is faking sympathy, like trying to gain sympathy, let's say they kind of act. You can tell they're being fake emotional about it. They really don't mean it. Well, a jury will just go, nope, we don't trust you. No credibility. I think you're faking it. And it's King's X every time.
- [22:45]
Chris
What are some other ways that we can tell that somebody's faking it? Like when you say try too hard. I see that. Like, oh, my God, it's so good to see you. You're so amazing. I'm like, come on, come on. You say that to everybody. Please. Come on. I get that one. What are the other ones that you can label for us?
- [23:03]
Jefferson Fisher
Well, you have the people who. I think it's a little bit different for you and I kind of in this space because we have a certain extent of content that we put out that people know. And so what do they want? They want to feel connected to us. And so some people resort to over compliments. Like, they compliment everything, even things you're like, you have to feel like you're going a little bit too far there. If they're just gushing, it can be from a good place, but that sometimes will lose that connection because there's this sense of falsity to it where it's so much surface, you don't feel that it's good. Another way that you can easily bring in disconnection is the people who name drop. It's really a source of that insecurity. You know, the type that they're. You say, hey, what's, what's going on? And they feel that because they're near you, Chris, they need to show you that they're worthy of knowing other big name people. And they go, oh, yeah, I was with Greg the other night. You know, Greg, right, Just, you know, sold his company for 3 billion. I was on his yacht anyway, and. And they start talking to you and you're like, that's not impressive to me. But I don't know why you. You get what I mean. They do it to make you feel like they're worthy of that company. And so rather than having the feeling that they have that sense of worth in themselves without having to name drop anybody, they have to get that from somewhere. It's like the people who. Really wealthy people that I know you would never know from the look of them, they're not dressing crazy. They're in just a regular used car. The people who I guess are somewhat rich are the people who wear the flashy stuff. The designer every. They have to make sure everybody else knows. Same thing with talking in a meeting. Sense of confidence. If you're the person who always has to have the last word, always has to throw in your 2 cents in every zoom meeting, these are typically the people that are farthest removed from the actual decision making. They just want you to know that they know the answer, you know, how smart they are, how much they know. And so people mistake talking time, the amount of time that they talk, for the amount of value they give. That is often very disproportionate.
- [25:25]
Chris
I like hearing that. As an introvert, I don't talk that much, especially when I'm around a bunch of alpha bros. And this happens a lot around guys.
- [25:34]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, man, there's a lot of those.
- [25:35]
Chris
I don't know why, but the thing is, I just keep wondering to myself, don't you all just see that. That inside there was probably a person who was bullied as a kid, who was not popular or well liked, and then has achieved a lot of success relatively recently in the last five to 10 years. And they still feel as they're responding from that, like, junior high day, and we're like, at a table, you're here, you're accepted. You don't have to prove anything. And the fact that the more you try to prove you, the more distasteful I find it to be. But sometimes I get caught in these conversations. I'm like, gosh, I just feel so foreign in this moment right now.
- [26:13]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, I can relate to that. You meet these people that seem like they have it all together, and then when you meet them, you go, oh, that's actually not at all what it truly is. Perception is rarely reality. I think it was Oprah maybe. And one time she said, like, out of all, everybody she's interviewed, presidents, everybody after the interview, they all want to know, did I do okay? Are they going to like me? Do you like me? Am I still going to be somebody? It's just that inner, that inner voice, that inner fear of everybody. It doesn't matter when somebody's name dropping you, meaning when they are coming to you and name dropping somebody else important or talking about something that you know that they're saying it to impress you. My biggest advice is just to be impressed. Just say, well, that's great, man, that's awesome. Instead of trying to outdo it, instead of trying to dismiss it. Like, you have to see the seventh grade kid who has just never been at the cool table in junior high and this is their chance. And so if you can just give a little grace, they say, oh, that's awesome. Congratulations, man. And genuinely, from a heartfelt place, they will follow you and love you forever if you just show them to say, hey, I see you. That's really cool. Great job. Like that right there is. They'll say, this is somebody I trust.
- [27:39]
Chris
I think I heard you say this, or at least it was on the Mel Robbins interview with you where you said something or somebody said what you say is who you are. And I want to follow down that rabbit hole a little bit because I think a lot of people think learning a communication skills is to do something that it doesn't reflect your genuine desire. And so if you live and think a certain way, I think the words and your tone will come across a certain way and then you can just sharpen that. But I think because somebody had asked me this question before, like during a sales role play, they asked me, chris, how is it that you project so much that you care about? I said, you want to know the dirty secret? Tell you right now, I actually care. And their minds were blown. They're like, you mean you care about the other person? I'm just trying to get money from them. And I said, well, your thoughts betray you. Then it's pretty clear that your intention is to close this at all costs, that it doesn't really matter if what you do solves a problem for the other person. And there's an air of insincerity. And you talked about, we have a sixth sense and we can, we can tell because you're not that good. You're not that good at faking it. Few people are.
- [28:45]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, you're not any good at all. That's very true. What you say is who you are. And what I say is that people only experience you based on what comes out of your mouth. Rarely do they have this full interaction, this whole display of your entire life. They get these micro moments and they will judge everything about you on these little Bitty micro moments. They might see the act of kindness. They might see you open the door for somebody and they go, oh, that's nice. They're very polite. Rarely, they base their entire perception of you, your entire reputation. All anybody will ever talk about you and how people will talk about you when you're gone from this earth is simply what you say. And it's this easy. You say nice things. Congrats, you're a nice person. You say funny things. You're a funny guy. The flip is the true if you say things that are rude, if you say things that are disrespectful, if you say things that aren't nice, well, congratulations, you're now seen as somebody that's not liked. When you say, I don't like this person, what you really mean is, they say things I don't like. If you say, oh, this he's a nice guy, what you mean is, he says things that I like to hear. He said nice things. And so when you realize that that's simply the power is not going to go download this new software. The power is not an oh, I have to make sure I have the best lighting, the best camera, the best everything. That's not the power of the quality. It's simply what you decide to say and how you say it. What I say is you can't be a kind person if you don't use kind words. It doesn't happen that way. So the good news is, if you're somebody right now listening and you feel like, I wish I was different. I wish I was more respected. I wish I was, whatever, you can do it. You have to use better words. If you want a better life, you first have to use better words. Words that serve you better, words that serve the other person better. It's just a different vocabulary. So think in your mind. If you could say, envision who you want to be 20 years from now. And you go, how does this person talk? And you start using that vocabulary now. That's the first step to get there. Your life. How did you see arguments in your life? How did your parents argue? You probably mirror that. How does your parent talk? How did they talk to you? You probably mirror that in some way. And so when you realize that it's all of that's really within your control of what you choose to say next, it's a pretty cool concept.
- [31:23]
Chris
So I have to ask this question then, if I'm an unkind person, can I start using kind words and reprogram myself? Because the harder path is to be a different person. And then the words that you would choose will reflect what you really think. Are you saying that in 10 years I can say I aspire to be a better person, a kinder, more patient, more giving, generous person? I'm not that today I'm going to use the language that the people that I aspire to become, and then I can program my subconscious myself. Is that possible?
- [31:57]
Jefferson Fisher
Yes, if you genuinely believe it. If you do it from a sense of you're a fox in the hen house. You're just trying to behave a certain way and I'm trying to look like everybody else. But on the inside, I'm not a nice person. Well, that'll always shine through. It's not never going to be genuine. I am firmly in the camp that if you're somebody that does not have a good reputation right now, you can change that reputation. It takes time. It's not something that's immediate. Just because you have one nice conversation with somebody does not mean it's going to immediately change their whole mind about you. But over time, you will first make them question it, their first impression. And then they start to peel back the onion a little bit more and a little bit more. And eventually the good in your words, you have to be so generous to where you don't care what comes back. I'm just giving positive words to you. I'm giving you kindness whether or not you deserve it. Why? Because that is my value. Like my mom taught me very early, where there is room for kindness, I will use it. That was her entire. Still is. I could come to her with an issue and I'd be upset about something, and I'd say, but, mom, they did this. And she'd say, well, were you kind? I'd say, well, mom, you don't understand. They just did X, Y and Z. And she said, well, Jefferson, I still think you should be kind. Like, it was her whole thing of, I don't care what they did. What did you do? Like, that was her whole mentality. And so when you say to yourself, because typically people are innately unkind, because we have this mentality that somebody else has done something to me to cause this. We have the victim mentality. They've pulled this out of me. I am disenfranchised. I'm a victim of everybody else. It's a scarcity mindset. But when you just decide to be generous with your Bennett's benefits of the doubt in everyday conversation, instead of taking everything personally, you just use. I like to. I teach you use the word maybe. Well, maybe they're having a bad day. Maybe they're going through something. Maybe they're overwhelmed. Maybe they're. Maybe they're in a bad mood. Maybe they're hungry. Maybe they're scared. Maybe they have to get there faster than I do. Anytime I use this maybe Mindset. It's so freeing. Whenever you're able to do that in conversation, people will find that you're the one who they can count on to always deliver.
- [34:28]
Podcast Announcer
It's time for a quick break, but we'll be right back. Adobe Max is happening soon this October 28th to 30th in Los Angeles and online. Join us for industry defining keynote since techniques, fun networking events and more than 200 sessions, labs and photo walks. Learn from the world's top experts. Connect with your creative community and get hands on with the latest updates in Creative Cloud. Watch this year's On Demand session streaming@max.adobe.com to see the latest and greatest in the creative industry. Listeners of the future can still save $400 on a full in person pass. Use code future25 when registering. Stop by the Futures booth number 2827 and catch Chris give one of his infamous whiteboard sessions live. And we're back. Welcome back to our conversation.
- [35:32]
Chris
I like this word maybe because it just opens up for other possible explanations than the one that you're probably thinking right now. And it creates a little bit more grace and generosity in the interpretation of what's happened. And I like that because oftentimes we're so locked in a fixed perspective that just having that word maybe and then imagine what else it could be and it starts to open things up. I learned this through my business coach and didn't use the word maybe, but he would say like, well what else could this mean? And then it just helped me to just zoom out a little bit and then you start to become a little bit less attached to your emotional state, your victim mindset, your scarcity mindset. And it allows you to have a shift in perspective. Not always, but it's a really darn good start. And now I have to ask this question, ask this question of you, which is when we use kind words or we use the words that reflect who we want to become, eventually we can become that person if we want. Now, Quite famously, Ellen DeGeneres was canceled because on camera she appears to be a very kind, warm, quirky person. But when the cameras are off, she apparently is a really mean spirited person and belittles people. And so once that eventually got Out. Her whole thing was ruined. For a person who's practiced this for decades, I guess it didn't seem to change her at all. On the surface, I don't know that much about it. What could possibly be the reason behind this, you think that we can learn from?
- [36:58]
Jefferson Fisher
I think what we can learn is there is a person behind everybody, and that's a person that you don't know. What I teach is the person you see is not the person you're talking to. Like you see me talking to you right now. But you have no clue how my morning went. You have no clue about the state of my marriage or my siblings or anybody. We live in a world that is riddled with addiction, with struggles, with problems and issues that we would never want to be shared. So you say something like, with her, again, I have no clue. I don't know much about her other than the show. If there is a separate side, that is typically what I would foresee as a past that we know nothing about and a past that has created a person who feels like they cannot be true to themselves because we now know she wasn't true to us, allegedly. What that's often a reflection of is they weren't true to themselves. Because that. It always sifts. It always has a way of filtering down to us. If you feel like I'm not being true with you, usually because I don't feel like I'm being true to myself. There's always a surface and a depth. And you can feel this in conversation, too, with somebody. If you feel like all of a sudden they have a really high reaction, like a big emotional reaction to something that you thought was pretty small. It's very telling, that discrepancy. And what it tells you is they're having a conversation in their head that you weren't invited to. My dad would always tell me the issue is rarely the issue. The issue is not that I left a sink on the counter. The issue is my wife got an email first thing in the morning from a client that put her in a mood. And throughout the day, she got more frustrated. And so I was the precipice of that. And I could say it for me, too, you know, it's not that somebody did this. My big reaction was I was already having a bad day long before I even walk into the room. And so sometimes that room is your life. I'm meeting somebody that has had a lifetime of things happening to them, and I am making a determination of what's happening to them. But the truth is they were walking throughout life long before I met them. Like I'm only seeing a mirror, a small moment of who they are, who they want me to think that they are. So that's. That tells me that there's always. Well, it just only reinforces the truth to me that the person you see is rarely the person you're talking to.
- [39:47]
Chris
And if you wind up being in a room with a person that is somebody that's really disagreeable to you and you have the option not to be there, how do you stay present in that moment? How do you continue to give grace or do you exit out of that conversation?
- [40:01]
Jefferson Fisher
It depends how they're treating me. Let's put it in some different contexts. Somebody who's very disagreeable is usually somebody who always has to be right. They're the person who's tied their identity to the concept of being right because that's how they tie their value. That's how they've decided they matter, is if people say that I'm right. There's some people that are very black and white. No, there is a right and there is a wrong, that there's no gray ever. And we know those kind of people. We know those people that always have to have the last word, and they're going to continue to argue until they're the ones having the last word. Well, knowing that I might begin with the phrase of I'm going to tell you something and you don't have to agree with me, or I might say, it's okay to disagree with me. I'm just giving you that freedom instantly of, here, have it, you got to disagree with me. And when I say something like that, when I say, you don't have to agree with me, my thought is, and I'm telling you it's okay. It's almost a relief to them of the. Oh, okay. I was. I was kind of expecting to fight. I was expecting. I had to, like, gather up all my ammunition. I'm saying, yeah, you don't have to have that. I also might try and prime what I call priming the room. Instead of talking about them, I talk about the space. It doesn't feel nearly as personal. So I might sit down and let's say you and I, Chris, are in a meeting, and I know it's going to be a tense conversation. I might sit down and I say, I want to make sure that we're in a space where we can be totally transparent with each other. You see how different that is? If I say I want to make sure we're in a room where we can. We can be honest here. See how different that is to me saying, okay, Chris, I need to talk to you, and I need to make sure that you're honest with me. Right? Instead, I'm talking about the room. So even for your. In your world, when they are salespersons in a room with clients and they set the tone of the conversation, it is such a relief to other people because you're telling them where your roadmap is. You walk into the room and say, I want to make sure that this is a space where you can tell me all the issues without any fear of judgment. Can we agree on that? Everybody's going to go, yep. They're going to nod. I want to make sure that this is a room where we can be honest with each other. Whether or not you go with my product or not. There is such a relief to people when they feel like, okay, I don't have to. I don't have to put up my defenses on everything. So those are two little techniques that I would use with somebody who's super disagreeable.
- [42:34]
Chris
God, that's so good. I know you're listening to this people and like, wait, he just said the same thing. No, he did not. Rewind. Listen to it as many times as you need to. And I just want to go over it one more time with you. I've heard you say this before, but it's still freaking good every time I hear it. You and I are in a room. It's just the two of us. And you could just say to me, chris, I need you to be honest with me. If you disagree, feel free to say whatever. That puts me on the spot a little bit. Okay. And then. Then say it the way that would create how you prime me to, like, have a conversation with you that's going to be really productive. How do you say that one more time, please?
- [43:11]
Jefferson Fisher
I will put the frame of the conversation in a space. So I might use the word room, office, place, whatever that is. So I might say, I want to make sure this is a room where I can be totally transparent with you. And so most people will go, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. They will always agree. They never say no, but that's where way better. The difference is I'm making the rules apply to both of us. Instead of saying, chris, I need to make sure that you're being honest with me here. That's very different. That's more pointed. That adds in assumptions. All of a sudden you're going to be thinking, wait, you don't think I'm transparent way. You think I'm not trustworthy. But if I make the rules apply to both of us, it's kind of like me looking around my shoulder, like, look, can we. Can you and I just talk? Is that all right? That's the feeling that I'm giving. And people go, oh, yeah, we can talk. You see how it's just a different level of now we're a little bit closer now. This is a sacred space that we've created. Can we talk in this? And so that's the kind of level that you can bring by simply defining the space that you're in, rather than trying to define the person, define the space.
- [44:17]
Chris
Let's see if I got this right. It sounds to me like you're establishing the rules of engagement and what you're willing to commit to this conversation, and by inference the other person's going to agree that, of course I want you to be transparent, honest and clear and open. And they're also then agreeing to it without having to say, like, I agree to participate in that way because it's inferred that they're going to do the same. That's really beautiful. This is like some ninja mastery communication skills here. I haven't used this before, so I have to really think about this.
- [44:49]
Jefferson Fisher
There's lots of different applications to it. Lots of different ones. It's always good if you're. Instead of, hey, okay, can everybody be on the same page here? And you're talking about the person, talk about the space. They do the same thing.
- [45:01]
Chris
If you're going to be, hypothetically speaking, because I'm doing this, if you're going to be in a large room with 900 people, you're going to give a talk of some sort. What's an example of how I could use something like that?
- [45:14]
Jefferson Fisher
So what I would do is I would begin with, can we agree? I know that sounds very attorney like it works. It really does. Can we agree that this is a space where we can be real for a second? And you know what everybody's going to do? They're going to nod, they're going to head nod. And you know what they do immediately when you do that is they've given you permission to say what's really on your heart. They've given you permission in that moment for you to, like, be direct. They've given you the freedom. All of a sudden you're going to feel the room go, okay, we're really now talking about it. You know what? All your feedback's going to be your feedback. Chris is going to be. You know what? I really felt like he just told it like it is. I felt like he was just really real with us. Because simply you prime the whole entire conversation around. Can we be real for a second? It's that same like, hey, can we, can we come in real quick? People love that because it feels like they're getting information from you to the exclusion of all others.
- [46:18]
Chris
I much prefer that versus me just getting real. And then people are like shocked. They're like, oh my God, we weren't ready for this. And so when you say prime, there's a lot of ways to understand prime. Right? Like the expression comes from priming the pump. Like you got to get it going for a bit.
- [46:34]
Jefferson Fisher
Correct.
- [46:35]
Chris
Before the water's going to come out. So we're preparing the audience to receive whatever it is we're about to say. And it's a rhetorical thing that we're asking. But they're going to say yes or they're going to nod, right?
- [46:45]
Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. And the nod is the key. So it becomes an invisible contract, so to speak, in arguments and difficult conversations. What I also teach is a frame around the difficult conversation. If you want to go there, it's very similar, but it lays more of a concrete roadmap. And you can use this even when you're given the 900 person talk. A frame is very simple. There's three steps and it's telling somebody what you want to talk about next is the most important. You tell them how you want to end the conversation. And three, you get their buy in into that frame, which is like the head nod. So it would sound like this. And let's say this needs to happen in a serious way with you and somebody else. I might say, hey, Chris, I need to talk with you about some comments you made at yesterday's meeting. And I want to walk away with the understanding that's that's not going to happen again. Sound good? Like, it's very clear, it's very simple. And the biggest thing is I tell you when the conversation is over. When is it over? When we walk away with the understanding it's not going to happen again. So when I use the phrase what I want to walk away with, what I want to leave with, that's the biggest one. So I do that in depositions and I've certainly done that in talks. So I might maybe I get brought in to talk to a business about how their level of communication does not reflect their culture. And so if that's how I'm being brought in. I might start with, I need to make sure that this is a space where it doesn't matter what I say. You're going to understand that it's going to make you better. We good? Then everybody's going to knock. I'm going to say, I need to talk to you. So that's number one. I need to talk to you about the quality of the communication in this company, and I want to walk away with the understanding that by the end of my talk, you're not going to communicate the same. Can we agree? And you know what everybody does and you know what they feel like, oh, we now have the stake is now in the ground. This is a moment. I'm not going to be the same. And at the end of the talk, that's exactly what the feedback's going to be. The head nod is such a powerful concept when you can get that from somebody, because it's like an implicit contract. And people don't like to go back on their word. Once they've agreed to talk about something, they'll typically stick in it. Why? Because they agreed to it.
- [49:16]
Chris
It's because we have this weird internal sense that we need to be consistent with our word. So once I say no matter how innocent, I'm like, I got to do that even at our own peril. I find. Because if I say, I'm going to pick you up at the airport, and then later on my wife says, hey, can you do this? I'm like, oh, my God, I told somebody I'm going to pick them up at the airport. My wife is way more important than picking up somebody at the airport. But I've already given my word to somebody. So now I got a new problem.
- [49:42]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, well, it's most people. Again, there's always exceptions, but most people don't like to go back on their word. Your word is one of the few things that you have, and if you mess it up, you mess it up.
- [49:53]
Chris
If I had to design in a lab an environment to create somebody like you, I said, why don't we raise them in a family of attorneys whose father practices the Socratic method, who is very intentional in communication and tone, and a mother who believes in kindness and generosity, and let's raise them in the south, and then there you are, just out of a factory. What else could have happened to create such a person? Now I see you as a person who is not only practicing the Socratic process, but as a stoic. I have to ask if people ask this of Me often is. Do you practice some form of mindfulness? Do you meditate? Do you do any of the woo or any of those things that help keep you centered?
- [50:42]
Jefferson Fisher
I'm not as consistent with the meditation, but yeah, like, I have a. I've certainly meditated, certainly in prayer. I think there is. You always have to have a sense of a greater purpose, a greater calling and understanding. To me, in my opinion, there's very much a spiritual world and that gives me a certain mindset and a sense of purpose. So there's certainly that. I'm nowhere perfect. I go to therapy. I certainly have my share of arguments, but yeah, I would definitely say that there is a sense of wanting to have mindfulness. It's not a habitual practice, but yeah, it's something definitely I do.
- [51:26]
Chris
You mentioned therapy. I've watched a bit of your content and some of the things that you talk about intended for adults through the lens of like, here's what I've learned as a trial attorney that can help you communicate better. Sounds a lot like therapy. Now, I've only seen my therapist like a dozen times and was a family therapist, and she taught me how to deal with a challenge I was having with one of my boys. I have two boys. They're not boys anymore, they're adults. But when one of them was, I think he was 4, so he skipped the terrible twos. He jumped into the fearsome four or something. And he was, he was like a handful. He was. He was having like hour long tantrums, screaming at the top of his lungs, slamming the door. And I'm like, oh, my God, what has happened? And it's usually pretty peaceful house. And he and my wife would get into some kind of crazy argument and they would spin each other out of control. No one's willing to back down. And it was just like, it was heartbreaking for me. And I had another little boy who was like 2 years old, like, oh, I don't want you to think this is normal. So I got to go deal with this. So I go to my boy's room and he just says the rudest things to me. He's like, get out of here, I don't love you. And I was like, oh, shoot. So I went to see my therapist, of course, her name's Joan. And. And Joan says, you know what? Here's what you do, Chris. You go back in that room next time and you take control of the frame. I'm like, what do you mean? She said, go in there and say, I came in here to Check in on you. I see that you're fine, so I'm leaving. If you want to talk to me, I'll be downstairs. And I was just sitting there thinking, there is no way this is going to work. This is impossible. This kid is out of control. And I literally go in and do that. Knock on the door, open. I came in and check in on you. I see that you're okay. I'll be downstairs if you want to talk. And I leave. And I'm like, he's still yelling, crying, screaming. And then like five seconds later, it goes quiet. I'm like, oh, my God, what has happened? And then the door slowly creaks open. He walks downstairs as if nothing has happened, and just goes about his thing. I did that twice. It's never happened again. Now, I share that with you because I've heard you say this in the car, talk, things like this. So please share those ideas. And let's see if there's a parallel here.
- [53:54]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, that's interesting to me about the therapy thing. I. A lot of mine derives from things that I naturally do when I'm questioning witnesses or in court, because people often don't want to give me information. And so I have to find a way to inviting them into that conversation to where it's to their benefit, to be honest with me. And I make it natural and comfortable for them to do so. I definitely raised on, you get more with honey than you do with vinegar. And I have gone to therapy when I. It was like, that was probably two years ago when I really first started coughing going because of. I started having panic attacks. Chris of like, I realized that there was a lot of people following me, and I'd never thought about this. And I what am I doing? And so it was just a lot of eyes on me, and for whatever reason, they would happen at night. Well, what kind of parallels can we draw from it? That when you put a frame around conversation, you make people feel less anxious. If I come in and I just walk into the room and say, we need to talk, that's not a statement that makes anybody comfortable. If you texted that to your wife right now and you said, we need to talk. Or better yet, let's say she texted you that we need to talk. What are you thinking? You think, absolutely. This is the worst. What did I do? And it will throw you sideways. You can't concentrate, you can't think, you can't do anything until she calms that fear. I mean, she's like, oh, nothing. I just needed you to pick up some groceries from the store, whatever. But in that moment, you're like, this is the worst possible thing. Will often make people anxious in conversation, including our kids. When we try to make them guess about where we're going or what we're wanting to talk about and what we're doing is we're like triggering their fight or flight. They don't know. Do we have to be worried about it? Do we? Not even people who are neurodivergent people are adhd. They have a sense of. They need to know right now. I will not be able to focus on anything else until we get a hold of this issue. So they. The more clear you are, the better it will be. What I teach is sometimes the kindest thing you can do is be as direct as you can be. So when you talking to your son, for example, just adding a frame, you see how you're not in the conversation with him. You're talking about the conversation with him. That's very different. You're not talking to him directly, so to speak. You're talking about what you're going to do and giving the option for him to be in it or not. But you're laying out your choices and why it's happening. So when you start to find ways to remove the anxiety from conversation, things will go better. It's like when you have to deliver bad news to somebody or you need to break up with somebody and they sit down and you go, hey, so we look, you've been great. You know, instantly, they're like, why are you talking in past tense? What's. What's happening? And they think just the worst is okay. Then they start spinning in their head of okay. Oh. Oh, my gosh, I thought you were mad at me. Like, oh, no, no. I was just, you know, no, no, nothing's bad. Nothing's wrong. It's because we're always in that defensive mode to protect ourselves. And when you provide conversations as a frame for more invitations and you give them the freedom to opt into it, better things are going to happen rather than just forcing them.
- [57:41]
Chris
It sounds like there's a pattern here. I'm seeing we're going to zoom out. We're going to be slightly objective, emotionally detached from the moment. We're going to describe what's going on and so that we both can decide if this is something we want to do. That's seeming like the frame. So in the. In the example, when you just brought up, I thought you're going to show us, like, how you break up with somebody. How would you set that up? Because we've all been there before where we've said something like, it's not you. You've been great. And how do we do that?
- [58:09]
Jefferson Fisher
You label the conversation rather than putting them in the fear of, wait, what. What's happening? Oh, this doesn't sound good. Like, they're all of a sudden, their sirens are going off because you're leaving them to just twist in the wind is what you're doing. Which is a very unkind thing to do. Label the conversation. So that sounds like this is going to be hard to talk about. This is going to be a difficult conversation. Isn't going to be fun. This might come as a surprise to you. Anytime you can label that conversation and then give them a pause, wait one to two seconds, it allows them to kind of ready themselves. Because if, let's say I need to fire you, right? And you come in, I go, hey, Chris, how's it going, man? You good? You good? Yeah. Are those new glasses? No, you. Oh, okay. All right. I mean, and you can already sniff, like, what's happening. And then I do this. I go, so listen, you already know that's the hammer's dropping right now. I finally. I said, so listen, we. We know right there. It's like all that stuff you said before didn't matter. So you label the conversation. So there's no question over, hey, what we're about to go through is rough. So if I'm going to say this is going to be a rough conversation, you know what you're going to do? You're going to go like this. You're going to. Okay, that's what happens every time. Every time they take a breath, they nod and go, all right, like, you're kind of readying for it. They're allowing themselves. So if, let's say I need to defire you, for example, instead of this, oh, hey, are you good? Hey, listen, we, you know, there's been a lot of, you know, turnover in just the market, and we just. We need to. That's the worst thing to do. Instead, be very honest, direct. This is going to be an uncomfortable conversation. Give you a second, you're going to nod and say, I need to let you go. Just like that. You're being direct as you can be. Then you can add on. Then the. I've loved having you here. You've been a great team member. And then you add on the compliments. Then you add on the stuff instead of front loading it and then making it mean nothing. Then you can Add on the, you know, I'm looking forward to what you do in your career. It's just not going to be here. And now you can provide the support if it's deserved. Now you can be there with them and actually have the conversation. But rather than just slowly tearing off the band aid, you gotta rip it.
- [60:37]
Chris
Letting people go is one of the hardest things you're gonna do as an entrepreneur.
- [60:41]
Jefferson Fisher
It's terrible, but what I do is exactly what I do. Like in my law firm, I've probably had to let seven people go in the last three years. All wonderful people. But, yeah, you gotta have it.
- [60:51]
Chris
Okay, quick label, and then I gotta let you go. And then whatever positive things you want to say, if appropriate, you say exactly.
- [60:59]
Jefferson Fisher
A quick label and then letting them know this is your last day or Friday is your last day at the, you know, here with us. Whatever it is, you have to be able to label it. The biggest thing is, rather than the slow walk, the small talk, which is not kind and disingenuous because you really don't mean it. You're saying it to make you feel better, not to make them feel better, is to label the conversation. It's as easy as, this is going to be a difficult talk. This is going to be a difficult conversation. And they kind of go, okay, now they're ready for it. Now they can embrace it.
- [61:32]
Chris
I want to ask this. This is pretty nuanced. Instead of saying, this is going to be a difficult or rough conversation, could you say, this is really tearing me up inside. Pause and then say, I gotta let you go.
- [61:46]
Jefferson Fisher
So I would tweak that a little bit because you haven't described what this is. Now, we can hit on that same vein and say, this is a discussion that has been tearing me up the last three days, or this is a discussion that I'm not looking forward to any of that. You can definitely personalize it if it's genuine. This is a conversation that truly just makes me sick inside. You're letting them know rather than letting them go and then saying, you know, oh, it tears me up too. I don't like it. Then you've lost it. It doesn't matter.
- [62:19]
Chris
Now. Do I need a second statement before I say, I'm going to let you go, or, this is your last day, or can I say, this discussion has been tearing me up inside?
- [62:28]
Jefferson Fisher
You can. You're just prolonging the. The hammer. You want to get to the hammer as quick as possible. So if you were to say, this isn't going to be fun, for either one of us. Pause. I need to let you go. This is a conversation that. It's going to tear me up, but I'm willing to sit with you throughout all of it. I mean, you get what I mean? Like, that's as quick as you can get to the hammer, the better. Because now you're talking productive. Now you're talking resolution. Now you're talking. You've already hit the dip. All right, now it's up to you to talk about the positive of what else? Because life is going to continue to go on. So rather than us having a. Like, why would you have a slow, steadily downfall and then just stay down? You want to have the little dip. And then let's talk about. Because there's more life. There's more life to live. And you have to remember that.
- [63:22]
Chris
Okay? So in the graph of my mind, visually speaking, if we're here and we don't know what's about to happen, and if you just slowly, just bleed them to death, that downfall takes forever.
- [63:33]
Jefferson Fisher
They will remember that longer than anything.
- [63:35]
Chris
And then everything you say afterwards is all messed up at this point. Right? So it's rather. We take them from here, we drop them right down, and then we start to build up and they're going to leave away. They're going to walk away with that feeling like, yeah, you know what? It was a tough situation. I'm really glad my boss really supports me and just. I'm going to. I'm going to figure out the next move in my life.
- [63:55]
Jefferson Fisher
They're not going to like it then. Rarely are they going to like it then. But later they're going to say, at least he was honest with me. At least he was truthful with me. Rather than the small talk of how wonderful you are, how great you are, and then you're like, oh, we gotta. I'm. I'm sorry. It hurts me to say this, you know, and I hate it, but I gotta let you go. And it's like, then why were you saying how great I was? But I thought you said. And so then they start to, like, second guess. Oh, so everything you said, you didn't mean. Like, when you throw in the word but it deletes everything you said. And that's for anybody listening, get in the habit of changing your butts to. And you're going to find that you're going to talk so much better. I promise. It's like, it's easy as saying, look, I love you, but it's the same. You just deleted it. So whenever you're delivering that advice. Label the conversation.
- [64:47]
Chris
I want to say this on behalf of the creative entrepreneurs that are listening. Many of you are still solo practitioners because the idea of firing someone hurts your essence. You can't even do it, so you'll never hire somebody. You might have a few freelancers, but you don't do that. But then it's really hard to grow a business when you don't hire people. And the thing that you're most afraid of is the firing part. So I want you to listen to this part and feel empowered. Like, not that you're looking forward to firing people, but you need to hire people. And every once in a while, it doesn't work out. So what we've learned here is that the speed in which you say the hard stuff is kind of important. You need to get to it. You need to use the right tonality. You need to label it right at the beginning. And you got to get to it pretty quickly and just notice how deliberate and intentional the words were. I have to let you go. There's nothing that gives me joy in saying that. And then if you want to, you can do the positive stuff. So the sequence matters so much, the tone matters and what you're saying. And it's probably the last thing I have time to ask you about, which is being clear and direct is kind.
- [65:53]
Jefferson Fisher
Of.
- [65:55]
Chris
Because, like, you're torturing somebody. They have that sixth sense. They know there's no reason why I'm in your office today. You've never called me in here before. You've never said a thousand nice things. I already know it's coming, and it's like the lamb. It's like it's freaking out. I'm going to get slaughtered here. But you're just torturing people at this point, and that's not what you want to do. Okay, you've given us a better way forward. Now, speaking about kindness and being direct, I find it mostly an American phenomenon that we are better at being clear and direct than the rest of the world. In parts of Asia, especially Japan, they're the most indirect culture you've ever met. And then parts of Europe, it's like people can't say direct things. You would think the Brits are really good at this, but they have a hard time with it as well. Now, these are broad strokes on painting things with. And I just somehow find it so strange, especially when I talk to my European friends. They think being nice is kind, so they beat around the bush. They don't say things, and it's Like, I got to sift through so much information to figure out what the heck you're saying. So can you speak about your perspective on kind is direct and clear?
- [67:08]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, I just got back from London. Like a week and a half in London. Totally resonate with that. I mean, they prioritize politeness. There's nothing wrong with that, but they do it. And again, we're painting with brush strokes here. It can sacrifice the true meaning and message. There's a lot of apologies. There's a lot of, if you don't mind. There's a lot of, well, even in Europe that I found, like, even in London, they say words, they flip sentences backwards. Like, they'll say, like, that's a lovely flower, isn't it? Versus isn't it a lovely flower? Or something. They add on the. They make it a question at the end. So, yes, clarity is kind. And let me tell you why. To remove the anxiety from your conversation, you need to quickly show them your cards. People don't like to feel like you're hiding something from them. And we have a very strong Spidey sense of whether somebody is not telling us, not giving us the full picture. What does that do that triggers your fight or flight. They're wondering, is there a bear in the bush? Is this something I have to fight or is this something I have to run from? Do I need to say a hurtful word? Do I have to yell to make you go away? Or do I need to hang up the phone? Do I need to leave the room in milliseconds? That's what their body is trying to figure out. And so when you call them to your office or you email them, hey, can we. Can we visit later this afternoon? And you've never done that. I mean, it's very easy for them to go, okay, something else is. Something else is happening. The temperature changes. The whole air changes around the conversation. They can tell you're more regretful, that you're more given up, you're more conceding when you are always lets speak generally for the other cultures, they prioritize the politeness. Even if you say, like in London, the royalty of coming out of the war, of everything, of showing peace, we want to preserve the peace. Everything is in order. We're preserving peace. That is what we are doing. And we will do that to the exclusion of any kind of other conflict or perception of conflict. You go to New York and you just exist in New York and you invite conflict. I mean, nobody has. I remember asking somebody for the first time, like, what the time was, he's like, wait, you don't got to watch. And I was like, I never mind. Like I just kept walking. So it's just so different where here in the South. It's like, oh yeah, I'll tell you and come on down, let me fix you some food and you tell me about your whole family. Very, very, very different. So when I say that clarity is kind, I mean that you're doing, it's not only kind to yourself, it's kind to the other person when you're showing them the sides of both sides of your cards rather than trying to protect. I'm not saying you can't be peaceful, just saying if you want to be truly genuine. I know this because I heard this from plenty when I was there of I wish I could be more direct. I just, I feel I have a very hard time doing that. So I will fall on the sword, I will beat around the bush, I will, I will be more passive aggressive and just understand if, if that's your natural inclination, then I'm not going to change who you are. But you have to have some sense of awareness that it is placing a value on your self esteem that you may not be proud of. And so if you want to have a different number 20 years from now, then, then there's a way to do it.
- [70:37]
Chris
Wait, wait, you wanna have a different number?
- [70:40]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah. Like if you can say you put it on your self esteem, like right now you say I have a number, a scale that you put on your self esteem. If you want to increase that number, well, there's a way to do it. That's the takeaway, is that you can change it by how you decide to speak. But yes, clarity is kind. And when you're in, it's the same thing with if you're not clear, there's confusion. Confusion breeds contempt. It breeds more miscommunication, it breeds more problems always. So that's the flip side of it.
- [71:12]
Chris
You had mentioned something about the anxiety about the sudden fame followers that you got. And that's happened really, really fast. I think you have over 6 million followers on Instagram, 1.4 on TikTok, something like that. And every video it seems like it's a million plus banger people watching it. Those are impressive numbers for a guy who's doing this car talk, this ride or die thing that you're doing in your car. How has the fame, the people seeking you out, how has that impacted you in your life?
- [71:48]
Jefferson Fisher
A lot. If you're listening to it and you're like, I just have a regular life, a regular day. Yeah, me too. It's just in my phone. I look at my phone and the pixels on the screen say that I have an incredible amount of followers. It's just as weird to me as it would be to you. If you think that I process any of those emotions differently than you would, you're wrong. It is just as surprising to me. It is just as confusing to me. It is just as shocking to me. And I never wanted this as a dream. This might be your dream to go, I wish I had this many followers. Great for you. I never had that. This started as a hobby of just sharing communication in my car. That's it. Never imagined I'd be in this, like, creator space. Never thought I'd be thinking, talking to Krista. And so how's this changed me? It doesn't change my home life. My kids don't know what I do. What's different is when I get recognized. Of course, with the book, the tour, people want more of your advice. And then that shifts of, okay, well, I thought two years ago I was just going to do nothing but practice law, and that was it. I was just going to focus on my law firm. And then now I'm realizing, okay, how do I do this? And what am I doing? I'm like, okay, hey, Mel, what are you. What are you doing? Like, Mel Rob, hey, Stephen Bartlett, what are you. What are you doing? Like, I'm talking to these people like, hey, what are y' all doing? And I was like, and you find out that everybody's just the same. It looks like they have it all together. No, it's just that they've made enough mistakes to find a pattern of what's working for them right now. Like, that's all that it is. Everybody's trying to find out what everybody else is doing. It does not matter how many followers you have, you still find a way of. I was more nervous when I had 800 followers my first video than I am now because they were all people I actually knew. And so that was a whole lot more traumatic than you make a video now. And okay, it didn't do great. Okay, whatever. So it's definitely changed my life for wonderful ways, in fact, because I get to help people more than I would ever have imagined in my life. I just, I can't describe the amount of messages, emails of just these heartfelt change their life for people I will never meet. One of my favorite ones I'll share with you, Chris, was I got an Email from a guy in West Texas, help us with foster care stuff. And he said, hey, man, I just want to. You'll probably never see this message, which. Those are my favorite messages to actually find and read. He says, you probably never read this, but I use one of your techniques when dealing with these parents. And because I got them to agree from your technique, these kids are going to have a much better life. And it's like, I'll never meet these kids ever, and they'll never know anything about me. But how grateful can I? Like, what kind of. Of a blessing is it to be able to find that? I'm walking in my purpose. I'm enjoying it. It's a passion. And I feel like I'm fulfilling a gift. And so to be able to share that gift is the greatest joy in the world. And to be able to have these kind of messages from people that are genuine, and you see that you're really doing good because you. You can. Like, I didn't need you. Like, yeah, you. You get an advance with a book, and you get certain things. But I'm an attorney. I. I was just fine. I. I've always been fine, like, in. In what I did as a profession. And so this was. I don't think I ever monetized content until six months ago like that. So it was just like, the. The joy of being able to. To help people is far more rewarding. So, yeah, it has changed my life a lot.
- [75:39]
Chris
On a personal note, because your wife's an attorney as well, right?
- [75:43]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- [75:44]
Chris
When you guys go around about your day and someone comes up to you, does that impact your marriage in a negative way?
- [75:52]
Jefferson Fisher
No. We came back from Nashville this weekend and we're waiting on the flight. Of course we're sitting on the ground because it's crammed at the terminal. It's hot. It's been delayed by three hours. So we're just sitting in the hallway. Somebody comes up and it's like, are you Jefferson? I was like, yeah. And they're like, oh, okay. So we stand up, and my wife's like, hey, okay, would you. You want a picture? And she's like, I'll take it. And so you just. It's. It might be a very Southern thing, but rarely do we meet somebody if we're together and we not know everything about them in about, you know, three minutes. And you get to get. You get to talk. So it's just like those little interactions. So, no, it doesn't affect it in a negative way. It was only the first time When. When I told my wife, I was like, I'm starting to get recognized in places. She was like, oh, okay, that's. That's great. Okay, we need to talk about the kids schedule for tomorrow. You know what I mean? Like, it was. That's. That doesn't matter. That doesn't exist. I could say like, oh, hey, you know, so and so just followed me this celebrity or whatever, and she'd go, I. Oh, that's cool. Okay, so Ruby's got dentist tomorrow and I need you to make sure it's like, it doesn't matter, but we were in a random chick fil a in on the way to Palm Springs, like just randomly middle of nowhere, and somebody came up and was like, totally had a. You're Jefferson Fisher. And that was. My wife was like, it does happen. You're. You're right. And then she totally went into it and it was fine. But yeah, it's. Nothing's been negative about it other than the standpoint of how do you navigate this world. It's very different. There's not a blog you can read on, hey, your social media exploded because of your car videos. Here's what to do next. None of that. I need a Christo article with really cool graphics. Can you make me a deck? A Christo deck that's well branded and say, hey, is your life just blown up and you don't know what to do? Follow this.
- [77:53]
Chris
Well, you know, I believe you. You've earned the followers showing up, doing what you do, teaching people your craft, how to be a better communicator. I believe this is a 21st century durable skill. People need to be a better communicator. I believe this should be a thing that's taught, like from first grade on, because I think so much would be better in terms of how we talk to each other, but more importantly, how we talk to ourselves. If we had people who are really good at teaching this stuff. And I can see the appeal. I knew instantly when my friend Mo sent me your reel. I'm like, okay, I gotta pay attention to this person. He's doing something right and really right. So congrats on all that.
- [78:34]
Jefferson Fisher
Thanks. Shout out. Mo.
- [78:36]
Chris
Yeah, Mo and Drigo are the guys who are always sending me, like, oh, you know, check this person out right now, right now. Look at this and, and study it for us. I'm like, okay.
- [78:44]
Jefferson Fisher
I always tell people that who are wanting to be content creators is as soon as you feel like you deserve it, you'll lose it. Like, as soon as you feel like, you've. You deserve a certain amount of follows. You deserve a certain amount of views. That's the exact time that you don't like. That's the exact time you've. You've lost it. You kind of have to keep this sense of wonder about you, of just, what a cool game, that if it all goes away, it's not who I am, it's just if it pulls the plug, then I got to share some cool stuff.
- [79:20]
Chris
Do you envision a future where you're no longer practicing law?
- [79:24]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, we're kind of in that phase right now where I still get cases. I just have to delegate them because I'm not able to attend every hearing or mediation or. I mean, I still involved in settlement communication. And it gets really now to where people don't want to try cases, so we settle everything because they don't want to be in the courtroom with the guy who they're probably already following, you know, so it's.
- [79:50]
Chris
It's very.
- [79:50]
Jefferson Fisher
It's very different. Seriously. I like that. Yeah, it's. It's a totally different leverage point I never thought of. But, yeah, when you have, like, people, when you pick a jury and they follow you and the judge and the bailiff, the court reporter is like, can you sign my. And you're like, I don't. You're look, the other attorney is looking like, okay, we got to get rid of this case.
- [80:10]
Chris
They're screwed.
- [80:11]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah. Yeah. So it's. It's a different dynamic, but it's like, I never thought about that, you know?
- [80:15]
Chris
Never. Well, as your popularity and fame continues to grow, when they go to the jury selection, isn't that one of the questions that would disqualify a juror? Like, do you follow this man on the Internet?
- [80:26]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not disqualifying. Believe it or not, I've had it before. I had it before where there's jury selection, and I didn't bring it up. I didn't raise it. So. Because I. I'm plain enough on this side. So defense attorney gets up, any of you follow Mr. Fisher on the social medias, and, like, 60% of their hands went up. And he's like, you know, making his notes. He's trying to. Now he's had it to where you still have to show that you're fair and impartial. That's really the baseline. And so you then have to ask each person who's followed me, despite you following Mr. Fisher, can you still be fair and impartial? And the first Few were like, yeah, yeah, no, I could do that. Until I got to this sweet lady and she said. She goes, no, sir, I don't believe I could just like that. And just, like, shook her head and he should have just moved on. He didn't. He's like, and you can't be friend impartial. And she goes, no, you know, I just follow his stuff. And I think he is just so kind. And if he has his case, then it's a real case. I mean, like, that was her whole. I did everything I could not to bust out laughing. And so he, of course, moved on. Because when she says that, what happens? Many of the people following me are shaking their head like this. Like, yep, that's exactly right. And so it's not disqualifying. So what we did was we settled the case within, like, within the hour. I'm pretty sure it was. It was right after it, he was like, hey, what do you. What do y' all need on this? Okay, can you agree to this? I was like, yeah, we can do that. And then that was. That was the end of it. But it's funny. He's never, never thought that. I really never did.
- [82:05]
Chris
That is the best.
- [82:06]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, it was weird, you know, a.
- [82:08]
Chris
Couple years ago, you're in your car, like, I'm just gonna share a video. 800 friends that'll watch it maybe, and hopefully I don't embarrass myself. And now you have people testifying on your.
- [82:18]
Jefferson Fisher
Oh, I did embarrass myself. Yeah, for sure. Like, that's that. Tell that to creators, too. Like, they're like, I don't want my stuff to be bad. I'm like, it will be bad. Like, you look at my first few videos. Yeah, they're cringe. You have to go through the cringe. You have to go through it. It's just part of it. But it's like, yeah, wherever you are, if you might be listening to this in the car, you can do it. I've done them in Walmarts. I've done them at Waffle Houses. I've done them at random gas stations. You just. Wherever you're at, that's all you need. It's not the perfect mic and camera.
- [82:44]
Chris
I love it. It's been a blast. I've been talking to Jefferson Fisher. He's a fifth generation trial attorney. He's got a bestselling book from the New York Times called the Next Conversation, how you can argue less and talk more. And he is the communications expert. And I believe you have a program. I want to point people to it because if they're like me, they're going to follow this, they're going to buy the book, and then they're going to want to dig into your communication school or something that you. A program you have. Right. What is that program and where can they find out more information?
- [83:14]
Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, Well, I make it easy. Things go to jeffersonfisher.com I have a school of communication which is really tailored to people. They already have my free content, so it's more practicing the skills. So we have groups and cohorts of people together practicing these skills to have the implementation part of it. So it's been a lot of fun.
- [83:30]
Chris
Wonderful.