The Costs of Being Internet Famous w/ Jodie Cook | Ep 378

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Futur with Chris Do
Episode: The Costs of Being Internet Famous w/ Jodie Cook | Ep 378
Date: September 6, 2025
Host: Chris Do
Guest: Jodie Cook

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the personal, psychological, and practical realities of becoming “internet famous”—the costs, boundaries, perks, and pitfalls. Chris Do and Jodie Cook share candid anecdotes about managing attention, messages, and expectations at scale, as well as the nuanced effects of fame based on personality type. They also dissect how online notoriety shapes real-world interactions and the blurred lines between public and private life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature and Experience of Internet Fame

• Triggered by a Flood of Communication:

  • Jodie reflects on the increase in inbound messages and the unsustainability of trying to respond to everyone ([00:42]).
    • “...It was previously a level where I could get back to people… I would not have any hours. I would run out of time... it just does not end.” – Jodie ([00:42])
  • Chris describes the endless “Whack a Mole” loop of answering messages on multiple platforms ([01:59], [02:40]).

• The Dopamine Hit vs. Overwhelm:

  • Jodie admits the rush from positive feedback but acknowledges the confusion and guilt about not answering everyone.
    • “There's such a rush of dopamine... you almost want to sit and be like, ah, this is like forever.” – Jodie ([03:49])

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2. Building Boundaries and Systems

• Automation and Text Replacements:

  • Chris explains how he uses autosuggested responses and keyboard shortcuts to manage repetitive replies.
    • “...I have this long-ass message that is an auto, not an autoresponder, a text replacement where I type in S R, R, Y. It says, sorry, I can't give individual feedback...” – Chris ([05:50])

• Paid Boundaries:

  • Introducing consultation fees as a filter for serious inquiries—both Chris and Jodie share their pricing escalations, using price as a throttle.
    • “Here's a calendar link to my schedule. This is how much it's going to cost to talk to me. And they all just kind of went away until they didn't.” – Chris ([07:40])
    • “...I have it, but I just keep putting the price up.” – Jodie ([09:03])
    • Chris details his own price increases—from $250/hr to $5,000/hr ([10:30]).

• Emotional Boundaries:

  • The importance of not tying emotional investment to whether or not people take your advice ([08:29]).

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3. What People Want When They Book Calls: Hype, Permission, and Parasocial Relationships

• Seeking Permission:

  • Chris observes that many clients don’t seek tactical advice but simply “permission” to act—a form of pseudo-therapy ([16:13]).
    • “A lot of times people just need permission...” – Chris ([16:13])
  • Jodie describes her experience acting as a “hype girl” for clients, helping them recognize their own strengths ([11:22]).

• Parasocial Dynamics:

  • Both discuss the strangeness of meeting people who know much about them while they know nothing about the other person ([19:23]).
    • “You meet them and they're here and you're like, oh my God, I need to get here... they are so familiar and you are so not familiar...” – Jodie ([19:36])

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4. Fame in Real Life: Events, Social Situations, and Personality Types

• Event Navigation—Extrovert vs. Introvert:

  • Jodie sees social benefits in fame making interactions at events effortless, akin to “dancing with the room” ([27:13]).
  • Chris counters that such scenarios are “a nightmare for introverts” and gives his own practices for escaping awkward social situations ([28:31]).

• Introverts and Extroverts: Different Experiences

  • Examination of how personality dramatically shapes one’s perception of fame’s benefits and costs ([34:28]).
    • “The ones who were like, I love being famous... they're all extroverts... the ones who said it was horrible, they're all introverts...” – Jodie ([34:28])
  • Chris points out some "public extroverts" are actually learned introverts, which is an “interesting type” ([35:39]).

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5. Authenticity and the Pressure to Perform

• Pretending vs. Being:
  • Chris discusses how online personas can become a trap, leading to alienation from one’s real self ([36:32] onwards).
    • “If we pretend long enough, we won't know which is the real us, and we'll lose our way Home.” – Chris ([37:35])
    • He relays an anecdote from Molly, a peer, who praises Chris for being the same online and offline, which he finds both flattering and sad ([36:32]).

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6. Unique Problems of Traditional vs. Internet Fame

• Actors and the Fragility of Identity:

  • Chris analyzes why actors struggle with fame, due to the public conflating them with their roles and their heightened vulnerability ([39:34]).
    • “The best actors are the most vulnerable people... they're very fragile in terms of their emotional state and being able to regulate.” – Chris ([40:10])
  • The double bind: they want the benefits of fame (roles, money) without the drawbacks (loss of privacy, scrutiny).

• Online Fame’s Dark Side:

  • Strange, inappropriate, or obsessive messages; “odd,” “crazy,” and even “dangerous” followers at scale ([49:59]).
    • “Every 10,000 people you have following you, you'll probably have someone that's odd. Every hundred thousand... someone that's crazy. Per million...someone that's dangerous.” – Jodie ([49:59], referencing Jay Shetty)

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7. Digital Footprints and Misconceptions

• The Net Worth Myth:
  • Both share stories of family coming across fictional “net worth” numbers online, leading to false perceptions and awkward conversations ([46:33]-[48:08]).
    • “It's not real at all. So it just seems really bizarre...” – Jodie
    • “That site ... scrapes data and if it doesn't have enough data, it just makes up all of it, like, whatever it can.” – Chris ([48:08])

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Memorable Quotes

• “A lot of times people just need permission... they've selected you as the person who's going to give them that permission slip.”
  – Chris Do ([16:13])

• “There's such a rush of dopamine... you almost want to sit and be like, ah, this is like forever.”
  – Jodie Cook ([03:49])

• “If we pretend long enough, we won't know which is the real us, and we'll lose our way Home.”
  – Chris Do ([37:35])

• “The best actors are the most vulnerable people... that's why they can't read reviews. That's why criticism hurts them so much, because they're that vulnerable, and that's what makes them beautiful.”
  – Chris Do ([40:10])

• “The ones who said it was horrible, they're all introverts. The ones who were like, I love being famous...they're all extroverts. Is that the divide?”
  – Jodie Cook ([34:28])

• “If you see me, say hi to me. If you want a picture with me, just ask. I would be happy to do it.”
  – Chris Do ([26:14])

• “I think that's the dream for one of those calls where you feel like you can help and then someone gets those out of it.”
  – Jodie Cook ([12:53])

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Important Timestamps

• 00:42: Jodie on unsustainable scale of responses; the dopamine/approval loop
• 02:40 - 05:50: Chris on managing messages, text replacements, automation
• 07:40: Chris begins charging for advice; introduction of paid boundaries
• 10:30: Escalation of consulting price as a volume throttle
• 16:13: Chris on the “permission” dynamic in coaching/consulting
• 19:23: Parasocial relationships; meeting “fans” in real life
• 27:13: Jodie on why online fame makes real-world events easier (for extroverts)
• 34:28: Not all fame is equal—introverts vs. extroverts
• 37:35: Chris on authenticity, avoiding “pretending”
• 40:10: The emotional fragility of actors and the perils of traditional fame
• 49:59: Jay Shetty’s “odd/crazy/dangerous” follower quote
• 46:33 - 48:08: Misconceptions caused by internet “net worth” and digital footprints

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, friendly, and self-aware, frequently laced with humor and self-deprecation. There’s an open acknowledgment of the real psychological strains and unexpected benefits of being internet famous. Chris’s tone is measured and somewhat philosophical, while Jodie’s is upbeat, curious, and pragmatic.

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Takeaways

• Internet fame brings both exhilarating opportunities and a need for assertive boundaries.
• Systems (automation, paid calls, text shortcuts) are crucial for sustainability.
• Extroverts and introverts experience fame fundamentally differently, and both need tailored coping strategies.
• Authenticity is rare but vital for mental health and real connection.
• Online fame, like traditional fame, has a dark side—from invasion of privacy to misinformation and safety concerns.
• Ultimately, visibility amplifies both good and bad outcomes—necessitating self-awareness, safeguards, and periodic reality checks.

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For more resources or to listen to this or other episodes, visit thefutur.com/podcast.

Transcript

[A]

So I would love to talk about if we were building our personal brands and if we're all getting Internet famous, then what is at the top of this mountain? And I feel like you have answers as to what's at the top of this mountain. I think I have some answers. I'm getting more answers as things grow. But I guess ultimately, if we're all working towards it, do we want what's at the top of the mountain? Do we really grasp what's there, what happens, what it means? And so I would just love that to be the topic that we deep blur on.

[B]

That sounds good. Where does this question come from? What made you think about this in the first place?

[A]

Because so my online stuff is growing, and one of the things I've definitely noticed is that the level of messages I get now is just unsustainable. And it was previously a level where I could get back to people. And being a near 100% extrovert, I really like getting back to people because I'm all like, oh, friends, I can speak to you. This is fun. But I feel like I'm getting to the point where I'm just like, I would not have any hours. I would run out of time. I just. It just. There's no hours in the day to be able to do this. Therefore, it's almost easier just to ignore everyone than to, like, choose who you respond to. So there's that. And then also other friends who are getting famous for their work have then had either really amazing, cool experiences or some really strange experiences, and it's the strange ones where I'm like, huh? Is this inevitable? Like, does everyone have this? Or could this be avoided? And then do the pros outweigh the cons as well?

[B]

Mm. Okay. Very good. I don't know if you were around when mess and, like, text messaging became available, or Facebook messenger, like, in the early 2000s. Somewhere around there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You remember? Okay, I remember when I started a conversation with somebody, I just didn't know what I could do. Like, I had to be there the whole time, super attentive, like, what do we do? Lol. What are we doing here? I just didn't know how to get out of the conversation. And so eventually it kind of hit its peak, and then it would drift, and then we would stop texting. And it took a while for me to adjust to that. Now I know my children, my 18 and 21 year old or 19 and 21 year old are probably gonna listen to this and laugh like, dad, you're so silly. You silly goose. Because they grew up with this kind of language. And so if you have some kind of compulsive tendency, a disorder where you see all the messages and it freaks you out and you have anxiety and you feel like you need to respond. And we're probably going through similar arcs in our personal development here. And so I can tell you from where I'm at, I get hundreds of messages a day, emails, DMs, on different platforms, comments. It is a never ending wave. It just does not end. I used to describe it to people as this infinite loop where in the morning I used to be able to do this. I'd wake up, I'd check my messages on Instagram and I would respond to all of them. And then I'd hopped onto LinkedIn and into Twitter and to YouTube. And by the time I finished that and Facebook, I went back to Instagram and there were new messages again. And at first I was like, let me just knock all these things out. Like a game of Whack a Mole. Like, boom, boom, boom, you're gone. And then you come back, there's new moles. I'm like, dang it, they're just here, they're, they're, they're. It's endless. So you develop certain strategies on how to deal with that. And I guess you're entering into that space where you're getting so many messages and you don't want to do. Clearly you could ignore them, but they start to pile up and I don't know about you, but when I look at a inbox and it's just all red, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I have to go through this. Somewhere in there, there's an important message and I, I can't ignore it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How do you feel about it?

[A]

That's the thing. Yeah. I think the. I feel like the hardest thing is that there's such a rush of dopamine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That. Because every time you log on somewhere, there's always something. And I think sometimes it can feel quite cool because people are like, oh, no, I love your work and I love this. And you're like, oh, cool. So you almost want to sit and be like, ah, this is like forever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then of course, that's just, that's just silly at the same time. Yeah. But then it's also that people you do really actually care about are in amongst those people. And then it's like, well, I do want to get back to you. But then you're kind of in the wrong place for this, you're, you're in this method where I get lots of other stuff. Therefore can you just engage with me over here, please? And then it just feels a bit. Yeah, I don't know, it's, it's kind of confusing. Probably a good, good problem to have overall.

[B]

Well, there's, there's systems that we can deploy, there's autoresponders that are intelligent, that can respond to keywords that'll help you out a lot. There's things that I used to do, which I now use automation to do. For example, if somebody shares something about me, my natural tendency is thank you, thanks for sharing, appreciate it. That kind of stuff. And clearly it's not a lot of thought. And I used to do that manually and now I just use robots do that because that's what I would write. I'm just using it to do it for me. The next thing that I would do is do text replacement. So when you start answering people and start responding to messages hundreds at a time, you start to recognize certain patterns of writing and thinking. So I developed keyboard shortcuts text replacement. So it's like how you type in tfs which will then spell out thanks for sharing or yvw, you're very welcome or API. Appreciate it. So it's things like that that will actually speed up and so I can power through lots of things. The other thing is if you're used to leaving long, thoughtful answers, this will ultimately wear you down. But I'm not that kind of person. I literally tell people, you write me a paragraph but will not read it. I'll say, say it in less words and then the answer will be yes, no, probably go for it. And that's as much as I can give. Right. And I have this long ass message that is an auto, not an autoresponder, a text replacement where I type in S R, R, Y. It says, sorry, I can't give individual feedback. I hope because people are like, hey, can you review my portfolio? Can you look at my deal? Can you look at my website? I'm like, I don't know what the person's thinking. It's okay to ask, but we don't know each other and you're asking for lots of my time that I just don't have a lot of. And so I can't do that. And you know what's really cool? Almost everybody, when I send that text replacement back to them, they're like, yeah, of course I understand. I'm sorry for even asking. I'm like, no need, we're good. They used to pretty.

[A]

How long did it. How long did it take you to develop these boundaries? Like, did you have a. Did you have an all is lost moment, or did you just go straight into figuring this out as you went along?

[B]

I think I developed it pretty quickly because I know the value of my time. And what they're asking for really requires thoughtful time to do that. I noticed that people who are a little bit older, Older than me, they would sit there and really write these deep, long, thoughtful notes. I'm thinking, good for you. You must not have a lot on your plate. But for us, it was like, we're anonymous, and then we're not anonymous. So when we crossed over from not being anonymous, the messages came in at a volume in which I had to adapt a different strategy because this is not going to work. One thing that was very helpful for me, because I think I sense this about you, Jody, is you like to help people. You're a genuine human being who wants to connect with folks. So this is your nature. And so if somebody's asking for help, you're going to want to give it to them, and eventually it's going to burn you out. It might make you even resentful of the person because you haven't established those boundaries. So along the way, I figured out a way to solve that problem and said, I'd love to help. Here's a schedule, or here's a calendar link to my schedule. This is how much it's going to cost to talk to me. And they all just kind of went away until they didn't. So that was a way for me to say, I'd love to help you. I didn't assume you're asking for free help. So here's a link to book my time. And that got rid of a lot of the inquiries in a way that they're like, yeah, I understand. And, you know, they don't respond to it like you're an effing jerk or. Or whatever. They're like, yeah, of course. Of course you're worth that much. Of course. I just can't afford it. Like, they'll say, what my dream is one day to make enough money so I can afford to book you for 5,000 bucks an hour. I'm like, that's a good dream friend. I like, I support your dream.

[A]

Yeah, you're totally right about that wanting to help thing. I don't know. The. The one thing I definitely have worked on recently is if you do help someone, then not tying any kind of emotion to the outcome. It's like, here's my help. You do it or don't. It's up to you, but it's fine. And I'm not going to think about it anymore. That's been quite a shift. And then I do have a booking link that I sometimes share with people, but then ultimately I don't actually want to do that many of them because I'm running a business and I don't really want to be booked by the hour. So, like, I have it, but I just keep putting the price up. And then I'm like, putting the price up. Yeah, just right.

[B]

What is. What is the price that you currently attach to an hour worth of your time?

[A]

Uh, well, right now on intro, it's $1500.

[B]

1500 and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you getting overwhelmed with the request at 1500?

[A]

I don't do all of them because I kind of check people out because I want to make sure I can actually help first. So I don't accept all of them. And then I. It started off lower, and then I kind of put it up because I don't want to do loads of them. So I don't know, I probably need to figure it out. But is that. So that. So that helped you, then you. You created something?

[B]

I'll tell you exactly what I did.

[A]

This is a thing.

[B]

Yeah, initially. First, like, oh, cool, you want my help here? And then I sit there and look at their stuff and give them thoughtful feedback. And the way this works is you think you're helping somebody, but then they become codependent on you to do their thinking. So you'll say, hey, check out this book. They're like, well, what should I read in that book? I'm like, why don't you just pick up the book? And then they're using you as Google for them. And then it's just sort of like, now I'm resenting this relationship because you're abusing my time. And they don't understand that because you were so free to give it. So eventually I was chatting with my friend Carrie, who I was helping, and then she's like, chris, you need to charge. I'm like, how much should I charge? I was thinking, like, 2:50 an hour. She goes, get out of town. If you charge 2:50 an hour, we'll not respect you anymore. Because there are people who know less than you that charge way more than that. I'm like, but, Carrie, I want to help people. She goes, I know, but you're way better than these other people. I'M like, okay. So she goes, the minimum is 500 an hour. I'm like, 500? I want to help people. She better do it. So I did it. And you know what? They stopped asking for help until they didn't. And then eventually they're like, okay. And then I got booked too much at $500 an hour. I'm like, I gotta change this. So I Change it to 750. Of course it slowed down, and it right back to the same problem again. Then I went to 1500, which is where you're at. Same problem again. So now I'm like, what's a price that are going to make people stop? That's the whole point of this. So now it's $5,000 an hour. I get booked a couple times a month, and that's good for me.

[A]

Yeah, I think people aren't necessarily even booking me for the practical stuff. It's kind of funny. They're almost booking me to be their hype girl.

[B]

Okay, tell me more about that.

[A]

So it's like they say someone. So I had one last week, and she came on the call and she. I hadn't met her before. I didn't know anything about her at all. And she said, okay, I want to talk to you because me and you are the opposite people, and I want to be more like you. I was like, okay, this. This is a big opener. And then she was like, yeah, so you're confident, I'm shy. Your sister's, like, coherent. I'm not. You're extrovert. I'm introvert. You're listening all these opposites. And then starts think, like, to help me. So I'm like, right, okay, so this is. This is big. And then I just started asking her questions about who she was and what she was up to. And it turns out she was in a bit of a. Like a kind of career crossroads. But she was so funny. Just really funny. Like, just describing how she was in this really hilarious way. And she almost, like, didn't even realize that she was funny. And she had all these cool things that she was, like, really nice. She came across really well. And she had all these things that she hadn't even realized that she had as her kind of superpowers. So then I just saw it as my job to just make her know that she was awesome. And then that's what I did the rest of the call. And then she ended up being, like, just super happy. She just left it, being like, okay, I'm going to do all this stuff. And Then she sent me a message afterwards just telling me all the stuff she actioned and then that was it. So I feel like that's a success. That's like, that's the dream for one of those calls where you feel like you can help and then someone gets those out of it. But then it's also. But then actually as we were speaking, I got so many ideas for like articles for Forbes, like titles and things I could write. And I was thinking maybe other ones. I could just record my side and then transcribe it and then put it into Claude and then write a bunch more stuff. And it's like there's this stuff that comes into it. But then if ultimately you don't want to be a kind of, if that's not your thing long term, then is it? Should you always have like an hourly rate that people could book? Or is it just better to eventually just be like, no, it's not my thing and therefore just speak to my AI and leave it there?

[B]

Yeah, but let's talk about that. Let's deconstruct this a little bit. So when somebody books a call with me, whether it's free or for a lot of money, the thing I ask them is if this is our first call, I need you to prepare certain things. So they have to do a little pre work. So I asked them to figure out what their revenue was from the previous year, where they're year to date, what their profit margin is, what their cash flow is like. So we need to figure out how much Runway they have and what cost of goods sold are. It's just basic business questions. And you know, here's the thing. If they just did that work, a lot of work has already been done. A lot of creative entrepreneurs don't even do that. They have no idea what these things are. So they have to do that work. So they call their bookkeeper or their accountant and get some information. They learn a lot about their business. I've already started to deliver value to them before we get on the call. The second question I asked them is, what are three things that you want to get from this call? Do not book this call unless you know what those three things are and prioritize that. So then now they're going to get some clarity on their goals. What do they want to get from life? And then ultimately to filter through, what do you want to get from this call? In doing so, I don't even read these things, but I used to read them beforehand. And if I had a problem with that, I'M like, we need to reschedule because this is not clear to me because you're not coming on this call for a very specific thing today. It's just like I got so much going on that I don't read them beforehand because I'm not working before the hour. And I tell them I hour we can do a lot together or we can just sit here and look at each other and it's up to you. I will go as fast or slow as you want me to, but I'm mindful that this is a lot of money and I want to make sure you get good ROI majority. To tie it back to your original question about the P.O. the the potential downside of being socially famous is some people do call just to talk to you. And I'm aware of that. And I don't like that becomes. Becomes some kind of strange parasocial relationship. Like I want to buy a friend. So then I feel like I'm a high priced call boy or call dude, whatever you call these people. And I don't want to be that guy. You know, like the curtain opens up and your timer starts. Like, what do you want me to do? Dance monkey? Okay. So I just say to them, we can chat if you want, but it's not good use of your time. Should we focus on a business problem? And they're like, yes. And so here's what I realized. I don't want to underestimate this and I'm not making light of it at all. A lot of times people just need permission.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Permission to start a business or to show up online a certain way. Permission to try a new campaign or to close down a business and for whatever reason, they've selected you as the person who's going to give them that permission slip. I'm happy to give them permission because if that's the thing that's holding them back, that's what we do. Oftentimes it's very, very much like pseudo, pseudo therapy where I'm just trying to help them through a problem and say, you may need to reexamine this relationship that you have in the past that's seemingly like informing a lot of decisions that you're making today. Those conditions no longer exist. How do you want to deal with that? So I try to do my best to channel my inner therapist and help them through a problem. Sometimes we have tremendous results. Jodi. Somebody told me literally they made $2 million more because of the advice I gave them. That feels pretty good. I like that.

[A]

I wonder if it's the. I wonder if it's that the price is always. It's inelastic really. Because if someone just needs permission, the more money they pay, getting permission, probably the more they are going to actually stick to it because they're like, oh, I just paid 5k for this, or I just paid 10k for this, or whatever it is in the future. So it's probably like, I wonder if it's now it's just 5k an hour and you do about two a month. If it was 10k an hour, would you still do two a month? Like, probably because it's just. At some certain point, it's not going to matter how much it is.

[B]

The sad part is sometimes people do get in a situation, I don't know what to do about this, where they can't afford to book that call. But for some reason they found the money to book the call. And when we get into them, like, how much money have you made? They're like, nothing. I'm like, oh my gosh, we need to solve that problem. So I'm gonna give you some hard truth right now. I hope you can handle it. And like, of course I can handle it. And then you give it to him. Like, I can't handle it. But we work through that, you know, And I tell them I. I'm not a guy where it's. It's purely transactional. This is a filter so that I don't get overwhelmed with calls. But if you run into a jam and it's a quick question, you can fire off a message to me and I'll do my best to respond. I might not respond right away, but I will respond. But don't abuse that, please. And if it's a big issue, then you need to schedule another call. So I'm just trying to be more selective with who I'm able to help because I know it's a finite resource that I have my time.

[A]

You mentioned parasocial relationships. So actually the. The whole people just want to talk to you is kind of interesting because there's a website called. It's like rentafriend.com or something like that. The idea that you, like, rent, you rent a friend and I have it pinned somewhere because I think if all went wrong, I actually think that would be like my dream job. That apart from Blue Peter presenter, it would be like my second dream job. That someone could like rent me to be their, like their wingman or something. And we could just like go to bars. I can help someone get a girlfriend because I'd just be like, hi. And then. And then introduce people. But that's there as like my if all goes wrong strategy.

[B]

That's your backup. Backup. Backup plan?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's there. But I have quite a few of these pinned just, just like as a kind of in case there's a safe. There's a safety net there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then the parasocial thing is kind of interesting because I find sometimes if you, you know, if you meet someone in real life who you have never met before, but they have consumed hours and hours of your staff.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You meet them and they're here and you're like, oh my God, I need to get here. But how can I possibly get there in this 30 seconds while we have this conversation that you can't. There's no way you can do it. They are so familiar and you are so not familiar that you almost just like is. What do you do when it happens?

[B]

That's a very interesting question, though I don't feel like I need to. There's asymmetry of us knowing each other. You've consumed days worth of content, I've consumed zero percent. And in fact, after I meet you today, I'm going to meet 50 other people and I won't even be able to recall who I met unless you say something interesting, unique and different to make you memorable. Which we get into like personal branding stuff. But I don't feel compelled to need to know what's on the other side. And I. Jody, you can, you can criticize, push back as hard as you want on this. Okay. I noticed this. I'm horrible at. Yeah. Human relationships. So when I go to speak, I notice that other speakers research who the other speakers are. They look em up, they watch their content, they read their books. So they're ready. You know what I'm doing? I'm like, I just wanna make sure I have a good presentation. So instead of doing all that stuff, I'm just working on the deck. So when I walk into the green room, oftentimes I don't even know who's gonna be there. And somebody comes up to me and say, hey, Chris, I'm a fan of your content. I'm like, oh. I'm like, I know you're a speaker, but I don't know who you are. So we kind of get into the conversation and I'm okay with that. I've just evolved to say, you know what? It's not that I don't care about you or I'm narcissistic. But it's not about me trying to squeeze every juice out of this networking opportunity. And probably I'm foolish for doing that. But I don't know who they are. I don't look them up until they show me that they're interesting first. Because the. The. Your professional accomplishments, your social following, whatever it is you do. I guess I'm too old to care anymore, so they don't impress me. But when people really have a good conversation with you, I'm like, hey, what are you doing, Lander? You want to grab a bite to eat? I want to get to know you as a human, so I want to know you as the person before I look at your resume. And I know it's weird. So when people approach you on the street, you're like, oh, my God, I'm a huge fan. Or they're on the call with you, and they literally do this, like, hey, Chris, I'm having a hard time breathing. I'm like, what's wrong? I already know what's going on. They're like, I just can't believe I'm talking to you. Well, when you book the call, it kind of. It kind of happens that way. So they're just expressing all their emotion, dumping in, like, the first minute. I say, okay, cool. He's like, do you mind if we take a picture? I'm like, sure. We take a picture. You know, screenshot, zoom. That's the picture. It's kind of weird, but whatever. And then we get into the car. I said, you know, it would probably be more productive for you, because I'm trying to be mindful of the money and your time and resources if we focus on something I can actually help you with. Is there anything I can help you with? And then I slowly walk them away from that, and they calm down, and they're cool. So. But I'm sort of used to that. I can pick up when that's happening and guide them through that process. So whether that happens on Zoom or in real life, I have fun with it sometimes, and it depends how much money's on the line. So when they do that in real life, I'm like, yep, it's me. I'm not just 2D. I'm. I'm three dimensional. I. I stepped out of the screen, and now I'm back, and they're still tripping out, right? I'm like, it's cool. It's cool. I won't bite you. Everything's cool. And they're like, okay, so we have fun with it. But when Money's on the line. I'm like, let's get past that quick, because the clock's ticking.

[A]

I wouldn't say that you're horrible at human relationships because you can't be. Because you can't. Like, you can't just annoy everyone and everyone hate you.

[B]

And also, you don't think that's possible?

[A]

I don't think it's. I feel like those two things actually. I don't know. I feel. I like to think that people, people who are like that don't actually get that far. I could just live in my. In my fairyland and believe that that's true. And then after that, I would say it's probably quite on brand for you to say that and act that way. Because I think if your whole thing is, like, less around asking for permission and chasing people and following up and more about, like, build your own stuff and attract the clients. Don't, like, don't plead for the clients. Like, it's very on brand that you wouldn't look people up beforehand. So I quite like that they go hand in hand. I like the idea that you don't know who people are before you meet them, and then you get to connect with the person. I think. I don't know if I'm so much like this around business, but in powerlifting, I'm so like this because when I go to competitions, I don't know who anyone is because I just don't follow powerlifters. Because I'm not interested in watching anyone else lifting. I just want to focus on me lifting. So it means when I go to a competition, there's like, oh, my God, it's that person. I'm like, here they are. But then sometimes you chat. You get chatting to them at breakfast just because you do. And then you meet them, they're pretty cool. And then you like, hey, let's hang out. And then you realize that they're like, they've just won the world championships or something like that. And everyone's like, oh, my God, it's you. And you're like, do you know these people? Like, this queue of people behind you, like, is this. Is this the thing? And then it's like, it's better. And I almost think there's some kind of. There's some kind of relationship of equals that you're going into that is nicer. Because the moment, like, I've. I've had it before a couple of times where someone's, like, losing their shit, kind of like you said, when people get on calls, and they're like, oh, my God, it's you. And, like, you, like, don't do this because we're equal. We're just both people. And you're acting like, I'm here and you're there, and it's not the case, so stop. And you just want to, like, shake them and say, don't do that at all. And therefore, sometimes I don't want to put myself in the position where I could potentially do that to someone else, because I don't think I would. But you never want to be like, oh, my God. It's like, I don't know. It's Jim Carrey something.

[B]

I need to do a better job.

[A]

Because you just don't want to be that person yourself.

[B]

Most people who approach me on the street or wherever will say, is it weird if I ask you for a photo? I'm like, no, let's go make sure it's good. All right. That whole thing. And I'm cool with that. And then sometimes I realize people are afraid to ask that, but I have yet to figure out, like, maybe I should ask them, which is kind of weird in my mind. But when. When people will. Will approach me, and it's becoming. It's increasing in frequency in the weird spots in the world. I'm like, I didn't think anybody watched it here. And they would come up to you and they would say something, and it's. It's a cool moment. I enjoy it. And at some point, I'm like, you know what? I have a pretty strict, like, a pattern, like, are you in the creative space? And they're like, no, no, I. I do this and that. I'm like, oh, wow. So what brought you to the channel? And we'll talk a little bit. And it's like, almost fantastic. Well, John, pleasure meeting you. And I have to run, but thank you so much. And I'd shake their hand, and that's it. So that's. It's pretty straightforward. It's like a mini street interview. So we have something to talk about, right? And it's a data point for me, and if they want to take a picture, we'll take one. But I. I used to, like, if somebody's traveling with me, I just tell them, if somebody were to approach us, just ask them, hey, you guys want a picture together? That way it's very easy for them to say yes or no. And then most of the times they're like, do you mind? I'm like, no, not at all. Now I tell people, if you See me, say hi to me. If you want a picture of me, just ask. I would be happy to do it. You and I are probably in our lifetime not going to get to that level of Justin Bieber where paparazzi get paid thousands of dollars to take their picture everywhere. So I'm not really worried about that. I think that kind of fame or celebrity becomes like an invasion of privacy. You don't have your life anymore. I think that becomes very problematic. I don't think we have to worry about that.

[A]

Yeah, but they. Part of the reason I think I quite like putting stuff out there online, building a kind of brand online, and also things like speaking at shows instead of just kind of going to them is I feel like then it makes it, it makes socializing really easy because you're at the event. You don't have to introduce yourself because people just can't do you. And then I think if I'm ever organizing an event or if I'm ever going to an event, I don't want there to be seats. Like, I don't want to be sat down. I just want everyone to be standing around and then you're chatting to someone and then if you're a person that other people know and want to talk to, then you kind of get like, you get people, people come out out of nowhere to say hi and then you kind of like, oh, sorry, I had to go. And then it's like new person. And then you kind of, you're doing like that. So you never have to say, oh, you never have to kind of excuse yourself and make up a reason. Like, you know, sometimes people are like, oh, I need to get the bathroom. And it's like, no, you don't just, just tell them that you don't want to talk to them anymore. Like, just, just leave. It's fine. You don't have to make of a reason. But you never would have to do that because you always just got this. You kind of like, it's like you're dancing with the room because you've got this nice cool conveyor belt of fun conversations. So I feel like that's one reason to be like famous online because of the in person interaction. Spoken like a true take so much less work.

[B]

Your description of what is a dream scenario is a nightmare for introverts. Put us in a seat, assign us. I don't, I didn't have, I wasn't, I didn't choose to sit next to you. I'm sorry. I just was assigned a seat and here I am. And Here you are. And we don't have to talk to each other. We don't want to. That's the ideal version for the introvert. But you're. You're also saying it from a couple different angles. As a speaker, as a person who has presence online and influence in whatever capacity, it's much easier for you to attract people to you. But if you're not a speaker, if you don't have presence, and if you're not a person of influence, it sucks because you see this corral of people surrounding somebody kind of like the sperm trying to fertilize the egg, and it's like, I can't get in there. This is so weird. And so they just wind up being in no person's land, stuck in limbo and not knowing what to do and being even more awkward and self conscious and saying, I should have never come to this thing.

[A]

So I guess even if you were an introvert, by putting yourself out there, you now have the choice as to whether you do talk to people or not, Which I guess is better than. Then you don't have to make the first move because you've got other people making the first move that you can choose to accept.

[B]

I tell people this on stage. I go up on stage, I say, I'm really a socially awkward mother f or af, you know, and I want to be so good at content and giving value to people that I don't actually have to develop social skills. So one of the benefits of doing what I do is you'll come and figure out a way to talk to me. Because I don't know how to start a conversation with you. I like the conversation. I just don't know how to start it. Sometimes I don't want to end it, but this makes my life much, much easier. So give you an example here. As we're talking about the price of building influence and fame potentially. I have now gotten to a point when it's almost comical, the timing of which somebody will come up to me and say hello at the most opportune time for me. What do I mean by that? I'm in Austin. I'm in at a restaurant, kind of a trendy restaurant that's on the lake or something like that. I'm talking to these two entrepreneurs who really are really deep into like performance marketing, mark paid ads, those kinds of things. And I was telling them, you really need to consider building your personal brand. Like, we don't have time for that. We want to build personal brand only if it helps smooth the Needle for business. I'm like, it does, but not on the timeline that you want. And they're, they're kind of like, they're open minded, but they're young and so they're, they're going to do their own thing. I know this is a lost cause. And the check has come and we're about to get up and the table next to us, a group of five or six guys. One of them's like, excuse me, I didn't want to interrupt. I'm like, yes. He's like, oh, I'm here from England and I just, I thought it was you. And I just want to say hello and tell you, you know, whatever they say, like, really enjoyed your content. It's very helpful to me. And the timing was just perfect. So we finished to shake hands here. Can I take a picture? I'm like, yeah, of course, let's take a picture. And then we walk out and then the couple, the lady is, you know, turned to me and was like, I see your point you're making there, Chris. Okay, it can work out. So here's the really cool part for me now is I am able to sometimes cut the line because people recognize me and like, what are you doing back there? Come up here, come with us. Like, okay, there's definitely a benefit to this game and we'll talk and it's cool. And so this is happening now and I, I enjoy this. I mean, I'm not trying to take advantage of people, but my gosh, if somebody can help you because of something you've done and it's their way to reciprocate value, the world is good. It's non transactional. I love it.

[A]

Yeah, I like that. So you're essentially just manifesting people in the people you want in at the right times. But then, sue, do you say hi first to people? Would you just start the conversation? No, if what you say on. Yeah. So if what you say on stage.

[B]

Is say hi to who, strangers? No, I don't have that skill, Jody.

[A]

Yeah, but it's not that you know how to talk to people. It's just the first sentence. You don't have to say all the sentences. So what's wrong with the first sentence?

[B]

You know words, you know how to put words together in combinations that make sense? Yes, yes and yes. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So then the only scary words for introverts, I'm guessing just the first one.

[B]

I'm okay once I'm in.

[A]

Because once you're in a conversation, I.

[B]

Do want to say a couple Things I want to point out, what may be obvious to us, maybe not to you, is a couple things. Number one is you're an extrovert. So what feels very natural and intuitive is not intuitive or natural to either of, or the rest of us. Okay. Number two is you're a woman and you don't have to worry about people perceiving you as some kind of predator. So men have this problem, okay, in both, both, both sexes. Here it's like you can walk up to another man like, whoa, back out, bro. Or walk up to a woman, say, hey, get out my face, I'm not interested. Like, okay. So most women will come across as non threatening. This is one of the few advantages that women have in a context like this. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No one's going to sit there like, oh, Jody's gonna freaking attack me later. It's just not gonna happen. I mean, in my mind, you know, she's gonna arm wrestle me probably. But that's the other thing. So as a man, as an introvert, and someone who's like, ooh, social awkward, I always think about that. If there's a group of people that are locked in conversation, my whole thing is they look like they're having a lot of fun. I don't wanna be the weirdo, like, hey guys, what's so fun over here? Who invited dork? What's he doing here?

[A]

When we talked about talking about this topic earlier around just being famous online and everything else, I was finding quotes of what people who had reached a certain level of fame had said about it and whether they overall thought it was net positive or overall net negative. And then I was going through ChatGPT and then I said to ChatGPT, now tell me if they're introvert or extrovert. And it was pretty much all of the people who said, like, you got Jim Carrey, Amy Winehouse, Emma Watson, Peter Levels, a bunch of them who said all of this stuff about it being horrible, they're all introverts. And then the ones who were like, I love being famous, that you've got the Rock and Simon Cowell and Kanye west and all other ones, they're all extroverts. So it's like, is this the divide? Is that literally the divide? Because it means that you are famous to so many people, they know who you are. You get the opportunity to meet way more people. To an extrovert, that's dream and to an introvert, that's nightmare. And so both have different coping mechanisms with very different problems. Is that like Is that the thing to that one thing?

[B]

If you're an introvert, you don't really want to hang around with a lot of strangers and compounds that problem. If you're an extrovert, you look forward to meeting a lot of strangers because they're all potential new friends for you. So that accelerates that benefit. And so it's pretty clear then what's happening. So it's a. It. The. The surprise person that you think is an extrovert, but it really is an introvert who's learned how to navigate that world. That's the most interesting thing to me, and it's something. I'm trying to develop those. Those skills, as awkward as I am.

[A]

So is the. Is the answer just build your personal brand, because as an extrovert, you'll love it. And as an introvert, it means that you get over some of the things that would happen if you didn't like having to talk to people first, maybe.

[B]

But I think there are a lot of YouTubers who are horrible in social situations, like really, really bad, where they're totally different online, speaking to a camera, like, that's their jam. And so when you meet them in real life, and this is why that expression, I think, is more real than. Than ever, be careful meeting your heroes, because they're bound to disappoint you because no one is who they pretend to be. And that's. That's a lot more prevalent than we all think. And I think it's a really sad state that we live in, that we. We have to pretend to be different things at different times. I was at a marketing mastermind. Some of the most successful, effective marketers on the planet were getting together. I was invited, but I'm like, what am I doing here? So I sit down, and there. There's a woman. Her name's Molly. And Molly's like, you know what? I just want to let you know Chris is a dope dude because he's exactly who he is, who you think he is. And she says that. And she was giving me my flowers, right? And I'm like, oh, okay. A room full of extroverts, by the way. And I said, you know, I think that's sad. I mean, I genuinely appreciate what Molly said, but I think it's sad that that's an anomaly and not the norm, that we're all just pretending to be somebody to someone. And I said that if we. If we pretend long enough, we won't know which is the real us, and we'll lose our way Home. And that's. I think that's what's happened a lot, especially now in the age that we live in. So it's really tricky. I just aspire to be me all the time. Everywhere I go, whether I'm on camera, if I'm talking to Jody, or if I'm talking to some kid who's fangirling out on me, it doesn't matter. I'm gonna be that same person. So when people do come up to me, damn, dude, you just like the same person. I'm like, yeah. Why is that even remarkable? It shouldn't be remarkable at all.

[A]

Do you think that this is why it hits actors the hardest? Because some of the quotes that came up, it was like Jim Carrey saying, I think everybody should get rich and famous and do everything they ever dreamed of so they can see it's not the answer. And you've got. Emma Watson also has something where she just completely switch off to the kind of getting approach thing. To the point where she was like, I'm not gonna have pictures anymore because it gives away my location, and I don't wanna do that. And you've got various people who are actors saying, no, it's really terrible. I wonder if that's because you don't know Jim Carrey for knowing Jim Carrey. You know him for the roles he's played. And therefore, that's the ultimate level of it, being someone else. Cause he's literally playing someone else. Cause he's an actor. So then does that feel the most disingenuous? Because people are coming up to him thinking that he's going to be like, Truman. And he's like, no, I'm Jim. So they don't even. They're not even engaging with him as his real self, which must feel very different.

[B]

Well, there's a couple of different things going on here. Number one is, I didn't know this until I worked with a casting director. What makes a good actor is they don't act, they react. Like what? They don't act, they react. They learn their lines. And they have this incredible ability to forget that they learned their lines. So when you say, you've never loved me, they're reacting to you saying you've never loved me, versus saying, well, f you then, because that's just a robot. And we see a lot of really bad acting. And what they're doing is they're acting. So he says, inherently, then the best actors are the most vulnerable people. They respond to emotions in ways that most of us cannot. Joy, sorrow, Pity, jealousy, anger, all those kinds of things. And so they're very fragile in terms of their emotional state and being able to regulate. They can't. I also think that's why actors routinely fall in love with their co stars, because they forgot they were acting, because they felt that passion, that love so deeply. Then they leave their partners or spouses and they wind up having that relationship with that person. And so when we think about that and then we kind of zoom out and say, why are actors so weird? They're really fragile, emotional people. That's what makes them really great at their craft. That's why they can't read reviews. That's why criticism hurts them so much, because they're that vulnerable, and that's what makes them beautiful. Then you take a guy like Keanu Reeves, who is one of the few universally love celebrities because of how down to earth he is. Is he a good actor? I don't think so. He doesn't have a lot of emotional range. Whoa. I know jiu jitsu. It's like, bruh, that's what you got. He's a really intelligent, philosophical, grounded human being who I respect tremendously, but I don't get that level of vulnerability, that emotional high and low. And that's why I think he's also simultaneously loved by so many people, Whereas people like Mel Gibson or others for different reasons, are not like that much because they're. They're broken like the rest of us. So I think Emma Watson or whoever who's out there, who doesn't want to be seen or approached anymore is because they're so sensitive to the needs and the feelings and emotions going around them. They can't process that. They want to practice their craft. They want the benefits of being famous without any of the drawbacks. And I think that's the conundrum. That's why people say you owe it to your fans. They made you possible. And so they're kind of stuck in this weird place without the fans. You don't get the role, you don't make the money, you don't get to do whatever you want. But with the fans, they make you slightly miserable. So they're trying to have their cake and eat it.

[A]

Well, yeah. And it's also. It's not like you can just send them an intro link and say, yeah, book me for whatever, an hour, and that's fine, because it's a whole different industry. And that probably wouldn't. It wouldn't work. It wouldn't be okay. So then they haven't really Got the. Get out.

[B]

Yeah. I want to share something weird with you. Okay. Yeah, I. You know, the boy bands and the people who have throngs of fans raving, you know, mostly women chasing them, tearing their articles off, and just being kind of almost primal. There's something there that's quite dangerous, I think, and that then becomes, like, the dark side of fame. Now, I'm not famous by. By that level, but there are some people who send me messages, like, is this appropriate? Like, do you understand this? There's lines that are being crossed and boundaries, and that's not okay. So I can only imagine that for a woman, for someone who feels threatened by that level of aggression, that might become a problem really fast. I don't feel threatened myself because I know who I am. And I don't think even you, Jody, are not going to overpower me. I don't think maybe with your stiff arm, you throw me to the ground, like, all right, I was proven wrong. You like judo flip me. I'm like, okay, make sure I have a soft landing, though, okay? I'm old.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

Yeah. But, you know, there's. There's that dark side, and I want to be real about it. It's like the. What is that movie with Glenn Close, when she boils the rabbit. Fatal Attraction.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

Because it's an asymmetrical relationship. Glenn thinks it's like this, whereas Michael Douglas's character thinks it's like that. He had an affair with her, but he's happily married, supposedly. And then she's like, no. Or Misery. You remember Misery?

[A]

No, I don't think so, but I.

[B]

Think, you know, she kidnaps the authority. She breaks his leg so she. She can't get away, and so she makes him a prisoner because she's in love with him.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

It's pretty horrific, Chris.

[A]

Sometimes as we talk, I just kind of doodle down here. And when you. Sometimes I look back at my notes, and I'm like, what? It's like the deepest depths of my subconscious. And when you said something about. You get. You get messages that you're like, oh, they're inappropriate. I actually wrote down only fans, maybe as, like a. You have a solution or product about it. Maybe. Maybe that's the thing. Well, maybe. Because if my fallback is like the friend, Rent a friend thing, then maybe that's yours. Who knows?

[B]

I don't want to fall back. I just never even thought about a fallback plan. I'm just putting that out there. I have no fallback plan.

[A]

That's good, too. So do you know something that I realized happens when people know who you are?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that, you know, like if someone googled your name, then it also tells you the. Like, if you googled your own name, you would also find out the other things that they had googled to find. Like afterwards. Do you know what comes up for you? Because I looked at this earlier.

[B]

Oh, now I know you're going to tell me, so go ahead. I'm pretty sure one of them is Crystal, a scammer.

[A]

That didn't. Well, I didn't go. When I looked at it, it didn't come up. I just have. No, that didn't come up. But it was Christo book, Christo, LinkedIn, Christo, Wikipedia. And then we've got age and then, and then wife, and then family, two boys, and then portfolio. And then also net worth.

[B]

Yeah, it's not real. I don't. I'm not worth that much.

[A]

Yeah, so. And then the ones that I had. So I had forgs, LinkedIn, age as well, which we've already established. No one really knows. And then powerlifting, Instagram News, Forbes, email. But then I also had net worth. But the net worth one's so interesting because what comes up for mine is some kind of guess, like on some random website that doesn't know anything about anything, Right. And then guessed it based on like my Google presence. But I ran a social media agency. Like, I know how to create myself a good Google presence, so it's just wildly, ridiculously accurate. But I remember one time my granddad said something to me about my like so called net worth. And I was like, what are you talking about? And it's because he had googled my name to like tell one of his buddies about it. And then net worth had come up, so he'd gone, oh, let's click on that. And then was saying it to me as if it was real. And I was like, listen, it's, you know, it's not real. It's not real at all. So it just seems really bizarre that.

[B]

What is your net worth about you on that site? What did it say?

[A]

It was like $50 million.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But then like I said, granddad, no, it's not.

[B]

He's like, I need to borrow some money.

[A]

Yeah, I know, I know, but that could, that could happen, right? If someone sees stuff online and realizes that you're not responding to them because you've got too many messages and then they think you're net worth or something that it's not. And it would create this whole Web of strange situations that you then dealt with in your real life because of your online life.

[B]

Well, this is a funny thing. You have a story there. So you send your. Your. Your grandfather a birthday card and some money. He's like, little light, don't you think, Jody? He's like, consider your 50 little light, don't you think? And you're like, grandpa, I don't have that kind of money. Well, not according to Internet. Okay, so here's the funny thing. I know that site that you're talking about. That site basically is taking advantage of people's curiosities about the people they want to know more about. So it scrapes data from the Internet, and if it doesn't have enough data, it just makes up all of it, like, whatever it can. So it used to say, I was, like, 37 years old. I was like, laughing. I was like, okay. But somewhere along the way, because I try and keep some of that stuff secret and private. My birthday and all that kind of stuff. And eventually it made it on the side. I'm like, God dang it. Somebody's updating this stuff now and then. The net worth, it cannot know because I've not displayed any words. It cannot know any of this stuff. So I remember my cousin's daughter. She likes to come over to our house, and they're out from Australia, and like, uncle Rich is rich. Uncle Chris is rich. He. Mom, do you know how much money he. He has? And she's like, no. And she's like, oh, it's like $38 million or something. Whatever it says on the stupid site. She goes, oh, my God, My cousin's doing a lot better than I thought. And she comes over and they're all kind of like, oh, tell us about this money. Like, what are you talking about? Oh, we saw it on the Internet. I'm like, oh, right, right. I know what you're talking about. So we believe everything on the Internet. So then they're like, so you're denying it? I'm like, there's nothing to deny. How would he even get this information? Have you ever thought about that? So it's kind of funny. It's creating a false reality. I think it's hilarious because it's so unreal that I find it humorous.

[A]

I think it was Jay Shetty who said it, but I don't know where he got it from, but he said that there's, like an OCD thing where every. Do you know what I'm talking about? Every 10,000 people you have following you, you'll probably have someone that's odd. Every hundred thousand people, you'll probably have someone that's crazy. But every million you'll probably have someone that's dangerous. Dangerous. And it feels like the odd person is the one updating your net worth online or updating your date of birth or your height or you're asking you if they, you can send them pictures of your belly button. Like whatever, whatever weird stuff comes through. It's like that's the odd, that's the oddness that feels like it just happens and keeps happening at that level. At those.

[B]

Yes, I, I, I thankfully have not approached a dangerous one yet.

[A]

But the crazies, I think I've, I've.

[B]

Have a couple crazies for sure.

[A]

Yeah. And what do you do?

[B]

Maybe I'll tell you the answer offline.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. Oh, yeah, yeah. You don't always have all your secret hideaway faces.

[B]

There's a good chance that they're going to be listening to this pod. They're like, wait, is that what you're doing to me? I'm like, no, I don't think you're crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I, I want to thank everybody for listening or watching this. Wherever you are, I hope you've enjoyed this episode of Jody and Chris. Don't Know Anything About Anything. And let us know what your thoughts about fame are. And maybe you have a horror story about someone who's obsessed, somebody who's crazy and some who's dangerous. Let us know. Or let us know how we're delusional, narcissistic ourselves. That's cool too.

[A]

Yeah, we're okay with that. We don't care.

[B]

Okay.