The Hidden Cost of Hustle Culture w/ Panache Desai | Ep 418

Summary

The Futur with Chris Do – Ep. 418

The Hidden Cost of Hustle Culture w/ Panache Desai

Release Date: February 4, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In this profound and wide-ranging conversation, Chris Do speaks with contemporary spiritual leader Panache Desai about the unseen toll of hustle culture, how modern society conflates survival with belonging, and pathways toward authentic self-acceptance and peace. The discussion explores the pitfalls of the self-help industry, the necessity of acceptance, personal transformation, and why “you are enough” isn’t just a slogan but a radical invitation. The episode is rich with candid insights, real-world metaphors, and memorable moments transcending design, business, and personal growth.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Two States of Human Existence

[01:11–03:05]

• Panache describes two ways of being human:
  • Survival Mode: Driven by identity, material success, and external validation; ultimately leads to unsustainability and emptiness.
  • Heart-Based Living: Rooted in peace, love, and wholeness; your “soul signature”; the universe is benevolent; fulfillment is internal.

“We have to realize that there’s a more holistic way of being in the world that’s more aligned with some of the principles of nature ... that doesn't come at a cost.” — Panache Desai [02:18]

2. Cultural Observations: Misery as Belonging

[03:26–07:11]

• Survival has become an addiction; misery is a shared foundation for belonging in many cultures.
• Celebration and self-acceptance viewed with suspicion in traditional cultures.
• American culture is ahead in embracing introspection and success, but ultimately peace is the highest success.

“We live in an insane world where we find belonging through suffering instead of belonging through celebration.” — Panache Desai [03:41]

3. Identity, Wealth, and the Illusion of Success

[07:59–09:12]

• Flaunting wealth often indicates immaturity with money; lasting fulfillment is internal, not tied to status or possessions.
• Success must be for oneself––when it becomes a burden or an identity, suffering increases.

"If at any point your success becomes a burden and everyone in your life is having more fun in your life than you are, then there’s something that you have to take a look at." — Panache Desai [08:58]

4. The Trap of Multiple Selves and Social Media Personas

[11:05–16:10]

• Energy spent maintaining different versions of yourself (public, online, personal) is unsustainable.
• Authenticity is rare and increasingly valuable in the age of online personas.

"Are you doing it for you, or are you doing it for everyone else?... The truth is, that version of you is the version of you that the world wants and the world needs more than anything else." — Panache Desai [15:38]

5. Self-Awareness Over Blind Spots

[16:10–18:24]

• People claim they’re unaware, but it’s often about not wanting to confront uncomfortable self-knowledge.
• Motivations rooted in fear lead to perpetual dissatisfaction.

"Awareness is actually the truth and the essence of who we are. The question is that sometimes that awareness is inconvenient." — Panache Desai [17:04]

6. Acceptance Is the Key, Not Fixing the Past

[20:35–24:41]

• No amount of analyzing or working on the past can change it—true healing comes from acceptance, not endless self-improvement.
• Personal development often keeps people stuck in survival, not thriving.

"It’s the acceptance of what’s happened that supports us … when we can finally just accept what we’ve gone through, then we find a place of resolution within ourselves." — Panache Desai [23:50]

7. Repetition, Commitment, Consistency

[25:11–28:02]

• There’s no one-size-fits-all process; transformation is habitual, achieved by daily commitment (such as meditation or breath awareness).
• Relying on techniques creates a new form of disempowerment if results don’t materialize.

8. Acceptance & Empowerment Are Not in Conflict

[28:02–31:05]

• Accepting one’s limits in control leads to connection with deeper, infinite power (the “soul journey”).
• Life’s unfolding is predetermined; attempting to control is an illusion.

"To not seek power is to be powerful. Really, that power comes from the heart. It comes from love." — Panache Desai [30:07]

9. Intervening Versus Letting Go

[33:03–35:48]

• Helping others should be done without attachment to outcomes; love and acceptance are more powerful than intervention driven by control.

“The reason why we interfere is because we’re incapable of being with what we have to be with inside of ourselves.” — Panache Desai [34:15]

10. Burnout, the Trap of Hustle, and Misguided Purpose

[40:25–44:10]

• "Beautiful prisons": Many professionals’ success becomes a gilded cage; burnout is the result of chasing material solutions to existential problems.
• Real transformation often comes after a crisis or awakening, not incremental improvement.

11. Self-Help & Optimization: The “Imperfection Economy”

[44:10–46:09]

• Self-help often solves “imaginary problems” of the survival self, keeping people stuck in striving and dependent on external solutions.
• Self-optimization can be “spiritual gaslighting.” Embrace radical individuality, not conformity.

"Most of self help ... is all based in the imperfection economy. And everyone is trying to sell you some solution to that perceived imperfection." — Panache Desai [45:00]

12. Love, Multidimensionality, and The Beatles

[49:32–51:10]

• The truest form of love is being fully present and accepting with another, not the romanticized conditional version.
• All need for labels falls away; the only thing that remains is love at the core.

13. Transformation Happens in the Body, Not the Brain

[51:10–56:47]

• Mindset and conceptual understanding are not enough—embodied experience through repeated practice leads to sustainable change.
• Emotions and thoughts aren’t “good” or “bad”—all are valid expressions of infinite energy.

14. Practical Ritual: The Power of Breath Awareness

[58:11–61:59]

• Panache’s 21-minute meditation ritual: Consistency, not complexity, brings results.
• True meditation is about awareness of breath throughout life, not only in set-aside sessions.

“Rest in the awareness of your breath because it really does transform your life into a living meditation.” — Panache Desai [59:35]

15. Wholeness and Multidimensionality

[56:50–58:02]

• You are both form and awareness; mortal and immortal; unique but part of a larger whole.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On survival and belonging:
  “Survival in the modern world has become an addiction ... misery has become a way through which we find belonging.” — Panache Desai [03:26]
• On the illusion of self-improvement:
  “Self-help is not working. The self that we're working on is actually the survival-based self.” — Panache Desai [23:24]
• On acceptance:
  “It's the acceptance of what happened that creates the opening for the integration that happens at the level of the heart.” — Panache Desai [22:10]
• On letting go of outcome:
  “All I can do is show up and be myself and share from my heart ... and that's it.” — Panache Desai [35:18]
• On the nature of love:
  “If I can just be with you the way that you are, then I’m loving you.” — Panache Desai [49:58]
• On transformation:
  “Until you have the tangible, felt experience of peace ... it’s not real for you.” — Panache Desai [51:27]
• On multidimensionality:
  “Of course [we’re all multidimensional]. We’re having a physical experience ... and we’re also this infinite, formless presence at the same time.” — Panache Desai [56:50]

---

Practical Takeaways

The “21-Minute Practice”

[58:11–61:59]

• Rest in the awareness of your breath:
  • Become aware of your inhalations and exhalations, throughout your day.
  • Consistency and repetition turn this into a sustainable source of peace.
  • Transform your life into a living meditation, no matter where you are.

“Breath is a naturally occurring thing... the very second we start to become aware of what’s happening, we begin to all of a sudden realize that there’s a lot of life that’s just happening that is beyond the scope of my individual influence and power.” — Panache Desai [60:13]

---

Segment Highlights with Timestamps

• Intro & What is Energy? — [00:47–03:05]
• Belonging, Culture & Celebration — [03:26–05:43]
• Discussion of Wealth, Identity, and Fulfillment — [07:59–09:12]
• The Challenge of Authenticity in Social Media — [11:05–16:10]
• Blind Spots vs. Selective Amnesia — [16:10–18:24]
• Acceptance vs. Fixing the Past — [20:35–24:41]
• Transformation, Repetition, and Embodiment — [25:11–28:02]
• Predetermination and Surrender — [28:35–31:05]
• Intervention, Love, and Letting Go — [33:03–35:48]
• Burnout & The Prison of Success — [40:25–42:52]
• Hustle Culture and “Self-Optimization is Spiritual Gaslighting” — [44:10–46:09]
• Embodied Practice: The Power of the Breath — [58:11–61:59]

---

Closing Thoughts

Chris and Panache close with playful banter, reflections on multidimensionality, and reminders to embrace one’s uniqueness with love and acceptance, both in personal and professional life. Listeners are invited to join Panache’s free daily meditations and to “give your gift of peace” by living from the heart, not from the hustle.

---

Resources & Further Exploration

• Panache Desai’s Website: panachedesai.com
• Books:
  • Discovering Your Soul Signature
  • You Are Enough
• Free Daily Meditation (via Zoom): Details on website
• YouTube Meditations: Weekly uploads

---

This summary captures the heart and insights of the episode, making it accessible and actionable for new and loyal listeners alike.

Transcript

[A]

Panache Desai is a contemporary spiritual leader, author and speaker known for his work on vibrational transformation and self empowerment. He gained prominence after being featured on Oprah Winfrey's Super Soul Sunday and has written two best selling books, Discovering your soul signature and you'd are enough. I just like the way that sounds. You are enough friends. He promotes wholeness over hustle and why he believes you're not broken, you're just disconnected and people are not broken and do not need fixing. He emphasizes that everything an individual needs already exists within them.

[B]

Hi sweet friends. I'm Panache Desai and you are listening to the Future.

[A]

Panach. Welcome to the show. How are you?

[B]

Thanks for having me. Really good to be here.

[A]

So, as you can tell, we're going to go on a slight detour of the things we normally talk about. But the reason why I'm having this conversation with Panache is because I believe what he espouses, his philosophy resonates deeply within me. And let's just talk about the resonance and energy first. Just for those of us who don't understand this concept at all, can you give us neophytes a primer on what energy and being in sync means?

[B]

I think the easiest way to describe it is that there are two versions of being human. There's the version that's based in survival, that's all about identity and self image, and that is more focused on the material manifestation of life. You're chasing fame, success and fortune as a solution or an answer to your inner conflict and your inner existential crisis. And then there's another version of life and living where you're operating from your heart, where you're peaceful, where you have access to fulfillment, you have access to loving relationships, joyful. And your past is no longer infringing upon your ability to be who you are now. And, and so in its simplest term, when we look at spirituality, it's really not good for very much other than the following, which is an avenue through which we connect with a higher power. And also to recognize that we are one with that higher power, that the universe is a benevolent place and we can think, move and act and operate from the fullness, the wholeness and the intelligence of our hearts. And that, in a nutshell, is all of it. That's where our soul signature comes in. That's where this feeling of you are enough comes in. And this is where people have really been able to turn their lives around because it really is a seismic shift. I've met peak performers who have built billion dollar Businesses purely out of survival. And as quickly as they've built them, they're unsustainable, and they crumble all around them. And they've left a huge string of carnage in their wake. Failed relationships not available for their kids. So it's just not sustainable. After a while, we have to realize that there's a more holistic way of being in the world that's more aligned with some of the principles of nature or some of the inherent spiritual principles that have been espoused for thousands of years, and that we can do the same thing in a way that doesn't come at a cost, that we can holistically move forward and integrate love, who we are, being of service, into whatever we're doing in the world as our avenue of contribution, and then have that be the foundational expression that then reaches others and then expands out beyond that.

[A]

As you describe these two states of being human, as you describe the second state, someone who's living with their heart, access to love, and all these resources that are available to them, it seems pretty ideal. Do you come across people who are content at being in that other state of survival and identity and material things?

[B]

So I think that survival in the modern world has become an addiction, actually, and it's become a way through which people find belonging. So, for example, when most of your listeners go home for the holidays, they'll pretend to be 50 to 10% more miserable than they actually are, just so they can have some commonality with their family members, right? And so misery has become a way through which we find belonging. It's like we live in an insane world where we find belonging through suffering instead of finding belonging through celebration. And after a while, you know, that begins to weigh on you because you can't ever really truly be yourself or celebrate who you are, celebrate your heart, celebrate your individuality, because you're lost in this conformity. And so when we begin to pivot away from the conformity, the first thing we experience is some form of rejection and some form of alienation. But then after a while, we begin to realize that there's a wisdom, there's an innate intelligence in that individuality. And that's really what our soul signature is. It's like we're all a part of this universal manifestation called life. And yet we're all profoundly unique and individual in that. And when we apply that to parenting, to relationships, to finances, to businesses, to whatever that is, naturally, everything becomes an extension of that. And so the belonging that then we discover is a belonging within ourselves. We finally get to a place where we're comfortable within our own skin, and we start to live our lives from the inside out instead of from the outside in. And that's the big shift.

[A]

So many little threads I want to pull on you. Talk about. I think this is a general universal principle that we need to belong to something or some idea. Without that, it can be very lonely, and we feel very isolated and trapped. And you were talking about how we can feel belonging instead of belonging to misery and suffering, we can belong to celebration. Now I hear a British accent. And the Brits are quite famous for being miserable about everything.

[B]

It's the weather.

[A]

Is that a stereotype? I mean, because I've hung out with Brits before, like, nothing's working. My business isn't great, you know. Oh, whatever. It's kind of like, famous, like, for that kind of.

[B]

It's a manifestation of the weather. I don't think they know any better.

[A]

Okay, are you saying that the weather is just overblown, just from observation about the weather, or is it bleeding into other things? What do you think?

[B]

I think it's a societal thing. You know, for example, I know growing up in the uk, all of this working on yourself spirituality, meditation thing was anathema to us. Most of my friends, their form of therapy was to go to the pub at the end of the day and have a few pints. And so I think there are just different cultural perspectives on the same phenomenon. I think that America is a hotbed for introspection innovation as it relates to all of these things. And, you know, we're always probably five to ten years ahead of the UK and most of Europe in that regard for that reason. So what becomes a trend here or what becomes an avenue of advancement here then becomes a template for the rest of the world to follow. And so I think England isn't too far behind, thankfully. And that actually, you'd be surprised. You know, every morning I do a meditation. It's absolutely free via zoom. And we have literally 2,000 people from all over the world, every country, every walk of life that shows up. And you would be amazed, people from every socioeconomic background, every gender, every ideology, every religion, and everyone has found this place of commonality through realizing that, hey, we don't have to suffer and we don't have to struggle, that we can live from this place of peace. And there's a power in that, that actually in some ways, we have to redefine success to equal peace. So I think that the reason why most of our British friends are living in the season of malcontent is because that they haven't redefined success to equal peace. And that if you can actually be at peace in the midst of it all, then you are successful.

[A]

As someone who's seen a lot of different cultures, Indian culture, British culture, American culture, and everything in between, I love to your perspective on this because I think there is something quite unique about American culture. There's lots of bad things. I just want to put that out there. I'm not here like on a soapbox or anything. But one thing I noticed, especially where I live in la, there's a celebration of success. And it's okay to flaunt your success and to revel in it. And we cheer you on and we root for you in the stands. We also love an underdog. But almost everywhere else I go in the world, Europe, parts of Asia, there's this idea of humility. And the humility I'm talking about is just kind of looking down on oneself and not celebrating and not being able to share your success for fear of judgment and being ostracized. Are you seeing similar things or do you have a different perspective on this?

[B]

Well, I think it depends upon your maturity with wealth. So when you're new to money and new to wealth, you want to show it off and flaunt it because you didn't have it. And you've been told that in some way that's a solution. But after a while, the cars lose their appeal, the watches lose their appeal, the yachts lose their appeal, the jet loses its appeal. And. And you realize that there's somewhat of an emptiness in it and ultimately you have some kind of a wake up, right? Something happens and you realize, well, hang on a minute, this is not what it's all about. So I don't have a problem with either perspective. I think that both can exist together and there's a cohesiveness there in both. As long as you know that the success isn't who you are, you're fine. Because I've met so many athletes and movie stars and actresses and people who have been in the public eye and all of a sudden the TV show gets canceled or they don't have another hit song, or they sell one business and roll into another one and next thing you know, the other company's not going the way they thought it would, and they're experiencing some suffering and some pain as a result of that inability to maintain that relevance. So as long as your success is for you and you enjoy everything, by all means have all of those things. But if at any point your success becomes a burden and everyone in your life is having more fun in your life than you are, then there's something that you have to take a look at.

[A]

I love that I talk a lot about identity and finding our voice. Here we are still early. For me, it's like 9:30 we're having this conversation. You're a couple hours ahead of me and you're coming in with a certain clarity of mind, a certain energetic state. I feel it's quite high. I'm just curious, as when you're leading meditation or doing other things or talking to friends or family, are you speaking at this energy level and how are you regulating it if it's different?

[B]

I think for me everything's just a natural extension of myself. And so after a while we realized that we're the only thing that we have to be and that our natural state is our optimal state. And so where people engage in certain techniques or modalities or framing or priming before they do something, I find all of that a bit inauthentic, actually. I feel like, why can't you just be yourself through every phase of your day? Because being yourself and expressing yourself is sustainable. So I can always be who I am and express in this way, no matter where I am, no matter what I'm talking about. Like, prior to jumping on this interview with you, I was speaking to a team member about Formula One. And I have the same enthusiasm about Formula One as I do about this interview. So it becomes sustainable when you realize that it's not a mode, a method or a modality, that you are the mode, the method and the modality. Then you realize that you're enough and you operate from that place of being enough because you've got what it takes to run your business. You've got what it takes to parent your kids. You know, we're living in this age of external authority primarily because people have convinced that they don't have the skill set required to excel. But everyone's forgetting that actually you're the one that's living your life. You're the only authority on your life. There is nobody else. At some point you have to realize that you've got what it takes to live your life, that you have that ability in you to do it. And that's not because of a technique or a modality or a methodology. That's because you were specifically created to live your life. That's why you've got the skills to do it.

[A]

I observe from different People that in different circumstances, they're totally different people. Especially in the age of social media right now, how we show up online is oftentimes radically different than who we really are, our truest selves. And it requires a level of energy to keep putting on that Persona and showing up as that person. So much so that it becomes. It's abnormal when someone appears in public and you're like, oh, my gosh, you're exactly the same as you are online, how you present yourself. And that's becoming rare these days. Now, a friend of mine, he met up with me in Columbus and he said, chris, I think there's three you's in there. And we're sitting at a small diner. I'm like, what do you mean, tell me more? He goes, well, there's the you that I'm talking to right now across the table. He's Brit. Also, he says, there's the you that I see on YouTube and there's the you that I just saw on stage the other day. And I said, well, this is fascinating. Tell me more about what you see. So he goes, the person I'm sitting across from me is super chill, very approachable, very calming. The person that's on YouTube is exploding with energy because that's how you're on camera. It's like you're amping it up. And lastly, the stage view is some version that's in between these two. And I have to admit, he was very observant. Tom, tip hat off to you, because in the beginning, when I was making YouTube videos, I. I thought, I have to transmit so much energy to a dead piece of glass, as if there's. I mean, I'm talking through the camera so that somebody who is doing something will stop and say, whoa, what is he talking about? And so I do see that part. I still see all three as authentically myself. But he has a point. You have any thoughts on this?

[B]

I have so many points on this. First of all, you're amazing, and thank you for that awareness and that insight, because that's huge and that vulnerability. I think that we compartmentalize ourselves because we don't think that there's value to being who we are, just in who we are. So, like, for example, with you, Chris, if you could just consistently be the you that's a friend and the you that's available to everyone, that you is the version that everybody wants. But I think that, you know, we're all following. Not all, but most people are just following a formula that they're seeing and they're trying to replicate that formula. It's no different than everyone's gif on a YouTube video is that shocked face expression. It's like Macaulay Culkin from Home Alone, you know, and that's not authentic at all. But everyone's doing it. Why? Because it gains traction on the algorithm. So after a while, it's like, okay, well, am I living for an algorithm or am I actually living for myself? And so with you, and thanks to the entry point, the entry point here, the invitation here is, who are you doing it for? Are you doing it for you, or are you doing it for everyone else? I'm 47 now. I couldn't care less about whether anyone likes it, loves it, gets on board, doesn't get on board with it. It doesn't matter to me. I'm comfortable in my own skin. I am who I am, and I just show up as myself. And so I don't have that same attachment to adding to the social media following or getting likes or metrics on YouTube or living for an algorithm, because for me, I've already discovered that success doesn't mean anything, actually, that it's not the answer. So my boat has bumped up against the edge of the set. I've walked out onto it, and I've realized that the whole is an illusion, that actually there's no point to any of it. And one of the big things that actually led me to that clarity was my daughter Celeste had been born with a congenital heart defect. She spent the first 18 months of her life in the hospital, had five open heart procedures, flatlined for eight minutes, and then had a heart transplant at 18 months old. And now she's 10. And she does cheerleading and gymnastics and is a pistol and is the boss baby of our household. And I'm sharing this with you because my fame, my success, my fortune, my connections, the money that I'd made, everything that I had made absolutely no difference in that regard. I was 100% powerless as it related to her and her journey. And it was excruciating, and it was filled with suffering until I finally just accepted her fate and finally just came to peace with what she was going through. And so, in one form or another, the veneer and the polish of trying to fit and trying to belong is wearing thin. The created self, the ego, the identity is losing its power and losing its steam. And we're beginning to revert back to something real. And we especially have to do it in the age of social media, because you and I both know we've seen businesses, we've seen influencers, we've seen people come and go, left, right and center. And there's no sustainability to any of it because you're constantly chasing a trend. But if you're just authentically being yourself, then it's 100% sustainable. And if you're doing it for you because of how you feel, because you love people, because you love yourself, it's a totally different experience than when you're doing it for praise or blame. And then you have to get stuck in the cycle of praise and blame. You're doing it for claim and metrics. And so how you step out of the illusion of it all is to be honest about why you're doing it. And for me, Chris, with you, I think the main thing is just to be the friend that you are with everyone. Because the truth is, that version of you is the version of you that the world wants and the world needs more than anything else.

[A]

How do we know when we're being not true to ourselves? Because that requires a level of self awareness and introspection that I just don't think most people have, or some people. So if we're sitting there attached to different ideas, feeling like we want to be able to control things, we're acting out of fear and not out of love and joy. How do we know? Are there clear signs that one is in alignment with oneself?

[B]

Yeah. Well, I think the most obvious sign is that something just isn't working in your life. There's some pain points, some suffering, some silent struggle that you're contending with. And there's a lack of vulnerability there and a lack of honesty and transparency about it. And then the difference is that when you are just being honest with yourself and you do have a level of clarity. And I also just want to challenge a little bit of an idea there as well, Chris. I feel like we're all aware. It's just that we don't want to be. It's inconvenient. So, for example, we went through the pandemic. Everyone was acutely aware of their marital status and whether they were happy in their marriage or not. It didn't take the pandemic for them to get the clarity. They always had the clarity. They just weren't forced into a situation where they had to finally do something about it. And so we're always aware. Awareness is actually the truth and the essence of who we are. The question is that sometimes that awareness is inconvenient. And so can we welcome that inconvenient awareness and and recognize that actually when we turn that awareness on ourselves, that's when we begin to really progress and evolve. And the main thing that we have to become aware of is where there's still any pain or suffering or fear in what we're doing. I've met people, again that have gone on to become super successful, and they did it because they were afraid of being poor. So they've gone on to make countless amounts of money. But the problem is that it's never enough. Because if they stop all of a sudden, there's a fear there. I'm going to go back to being impoverished. And I'm blaming my poverty for the suffering that I experienced in my childhood or in my early adolescence. So everyone's being motivated and driven by something. And if there's one key takeaway that I would like everyone to get from here, it's what are you being driven and motivated by? Are you being driven and motivated by fear, or are you being driven and motivated by your heart and being a contribution? Because those are two very different experiences of the same life.

[A]

I'm on board with you. This is going to hurt some people because it's easier to say, I'm unaware. I have a blind spot to this. And what you're saying is it's just inconvenient for you to tune into what you already know. I often refer to this as selective amnesia. So it's a little easier for people to hear that because it gives them an out of taking total responsibility. Right. So it's less of a blind spot, more of turning a blind eye. Okay. So there are lots of ways we can unpack this, because people are not liking their life. They're not ready to address a deeper rooted thing. And I'm going to ask for my friend, and my friend's going to know who I'm talking about. Just in one second, we got into a deep conversation and I had asked her something. Do you trust me? And she goes, yes, I do. I said, the funny thing is your actions and your words do not align with someone who to tries trust me. And I asked her, please do me a favor and ask your husband about this. Ask your husband, because he knows you quite well. Do you trust Chris? And then she texted me back, and the answer was quite interesting. Her husband says, you trust him as much as you can trust anybody. In fact, I don't think you even trust me, the husband. And then when I asked her about this, I said, why is it that you're afraid to trust people? Well, she said, I lost Someone very close to me, and it tore me apart. My heart cannot bear this heartache. Once again, I said, and this is just my philosophy here, and feel free to bring in your wisdom on this, is that having your heart broken is the price of love. If you don't love people, you won't have your heart broken ever. But that means that everyone will be at a certain distance from you. And that's a decision that you're making. And I don't care which way you go. You decide on your own time. But if you're not ready to fully love, then you'll keep everyone at a distance. And she goes, I can't process this right now. This is too much for me. I'm not ready to go there. So this is her actively saying, I'm not going to deal with this because it's too painful. And so she's going to live another 5, 10, 15, 20 years of her life not being able to form these close relationships. Now, I'd love to get your perspective on all of this, please.

[B]

I love it. We just have to take it one step further. And I think in taking it one step further, we have to realize, and everyone here has to acknowledge that they are powerless as it relates to the past, that there is nothing that you can do as it relates to your past. There's no amount of analyzing it, fixing it, working on it, healing it, changing it, or understanding it that makes one iota of a difference. And actually, that's not the point of all of this. See, what you and I call working on ourselves in the modern world, the context of personal development or spiritual development is all based in the past. It's all some form of revisionist history. You're trying to make up for some deficit that you believe that you had that's infringing upon who you are now. But let's just imagine for a moment, Chris, that everyone's at infinite potential now. And that all we have to do is realize that we can do nothing about a single thing that we've gone through in that moment. Then she can finally accept what happened and be free of it. So I've discovered that it's the acceptance of what's happened that supports us. It's the acceptance of what we went through. That climb creates the opening for the completion and the integration that happens at the level of the heart. Until we come into the acceptance of it. We just keep looping and surviving, looping and surviving. And then what we're doing is just building more egoic structures. So, for example, in Spirituality, you've got your primary identity. But what you'll encounter is then people who have this secondary identity called spiritual ego. And all that's about is trying to be better than who you were. So working on yourself, meditation, mindfulness, going to workshops, going to seminars, spending all this time, effort and energy that you're doing on this is not to become a better version of you. Because you're making yourself wrong for who you are fundamentally. And if you continue to do it from that perspective, you'll never relax into the wholeness that's available to you now. So that's why you have to start from the fact that you are always at infinite potential now. And that there is nothing that you can do about a single thing that's happened in the past, that you have to accept it and in the acceptance of it. It's done, it's baked in, we're free of it. And then we can finally just be where we are now and live from this place of potential and truth now. So the illusion in the personal development space or in spiritual development, whatever, is there's some progression through time and that you have to go through some linear evolutionary progression to actualize your potential. It's the biggest illusion and misconception of them all, actually. If indeed we are these infinite beings and we are this love and this light, then that means that every potential is available in every moment. We're just excluded, excluding ourselves from it. So just like everyone's aware, but it's inconvenient to be aware in that same regard. Everyone's whole and complete. It's just inconvenient for people to be that. First of all, they don't know how. It's foreign to them. They've never been seen that way. And secondarily, all of a sudden, it becomes very quiet and very peaceful, and there's no disruption. There's like a stillness and a kind of calm that comes over them. And that can be foreign to people of first, because all they've known is the chaos. All they've known is the story, all they've known is the past. So instead of working through things now we just need to be in a place where we accept things. And the very second that we accept something, we can then be done. We can be freed of the need to work on it. Constantly workshopping it to death, talking about it, fixing it, healing it, changing it. Because I think that now we have to realize collectively that self help is not working. That the self that we're working on is actually the survival based Self. We're learning strategies as to how to survive better. We're spending time in workshops as to how to out survive our fellow human beings who are also in survival. So really the transformational space has been the adaptation space. It's become how we adapt in the presence of these things that we haven't been able to accept. But I've discovered that actually if we can just accept them, we can just embrace them as a part of who we are. They're not the truth of who we are. Sure, we've all gone through things, but what does that have to do with our potential? Nothing. So when we can finally just accept what we've gone through, then we find a place of resolution within ourselves. And then we're at infinite power. So powerlessness and being powerless over the past is an entry point into infinite power in the present.

[A]

Is there a structured way for someone who's lived with this for decades of this feeling of powerlessness, trapped in the past, trying to fix something that has we have no control over? We're kind of an echo of whatever tragedy or trauma we faced many, many years ago and still dealing with those vibrations. Is there a step by step process that you take people through to help them deal with that so that they can move into the infinite potential?

[B]

There is. But it's not so much a process because everyone's so unique in who they are that there's no one size fits all. I've discovered for myself that it's just the repetition, the commitment and the consistency that eventually gets someone to move away from the old habitual pattern of the past and the trauma and the pain as the truth of themselves into finally accepting peace as the truth of themselves. So for example, like call to calm, which is the meditation I do every morning, has been going on now for 1,545 or 46 days. Not sure, whichever one it is today. And everyone's been showing up every day and all we're doing is resting in the awareness of our breath and coming into a place of profound acceptance around everything that's happened. Now on day one, it's a lot harder for somebody to come into that acceptance. But after 1,545 days, give or take ish, it's become a lot easier for people to come into the acceptance of what's happened. So just like finding conformity through pain or through suffering or through misery is habitual in that same way, living in a sense of freedom and possibility and potential is also habitual. And we are creatures of habit. And so After a while, we've got to begin to recognize that we have to commit to the truth of who we are and that we have to reinforce doubt in a day. And it's not fake it till you make it. It's actually welcoming being a human being. You know, it's funny that I ended up in spirituality because for me, the friction point is not at the level of spirit. There's nothing missing there. People are disqualifying themselves at the level of their humanity. So I've spent my entire life helping people come into an acceptance and a profound love of who they are as a human being. That's where the possibility and the potential is. There's nothing missing at the love of spirit. So spirituality in and of itself is a misnomer. It's totally interesting that people would focus on that as a solution to something when it's not. In the same way that material success is not a solution to something either, because you still have to deal with the human being that you are. And so in this case, it's coming back to the breath, it's coming back to the acceptance of it. And it's going to have to be a consistent commitment and repetition that allows that individual to have that shift. And then in their own time, it happens for them. I realized a long time ago that the age of techniques and modalities are over. We can't live in this technique and modality framework anymore because it just doesn't work for everyone. And actually what it does, Chris, is it creates another layer of self invalidation. Because what happens if you dedicate yourself to a specific ideology or a specific teaching or a specific framework, yet you're actualizing none of the results from it at that point? It's like even that has failed you. Everything else failed you, and now even this has failed you. And so we have to realize that it's the commitment, it's the consistency and the repetition. And that's the key that makes the difference. And that's the key that makes the difference with everything.

[A]

You've mentioned the word acceptance many, many times. Is the word acceptance and empowerment at conflict with each other or do coexist in your mind? Because I think of when I accept something, I kind of surrender. Like when your daughter was sick and in the hospital, you had to accept that it is going to be what it's going to be because you have no power over the situation. So you surrender yourself. Does that mean you are now, like, leaving it up to fate? And can we apply this across multiple dimensions or in this situation, clearly there's not much you can do unless you're a doctor.

[B]

My acceptance of my limited notion of power and control allows me to access a more infinite whole sense of power that's always dwelled within me. And so any power that I can exert over a situation through influence, through identity, through connections, through whatever there is at the level of my created self is so limited in relationship to the power that's unfolding in every moment. So this is a deeper philosophical question, and we'll address it in a couple of ways. The only version of life and living that makes sense to me is predetermination. Like, how did we end up here? How did you and I end up on this podcast, right? Like, when you look at the probability of that, it's at best, you know, who knows what the ratio is, right? Or what the equation is for that? So clearly there's something happening here. Now, in spirituality, they do a good job of describing this, right? They'll say to you that you're on your soul's journey or that everything's unfolding with a sense of divine order. But when you get that and you really surrender to that truth, you begin to access that infinite nature of power. Because what that means is, I'm on a journey that's predetermined, that's predestined, that's unfolding perfectly. Because when you look at your life, how does your life make any sense? And how could you recreate most of what you've described as a win, even if you tried to? It's almost like you just happened to be in the right place at the right time, met someone, a connection happened, and then something came about as a result of that. That's not something that you can vision board or create. That's something that you're living. And so for me, there is a perfect unfolding happening at the level of who I really am, and my identity is just along for the ride. And how I describe this is, if you have a car crash, it's a bit too late to invent airbags, but. But what we're doing at the level of our identity is constantly inventing airbags instead of just accepting the fact that we crashed the car. So powerlessness is the entry point into this infinite power, because there's no amount of power or control that you can exert over life or reality that's actually real. It's all based in fear. And after a while, you realize this. You realize the wisdom of this, that to not seek power is to be Powerful. Because really that power comes from the heart. It comes from love. It has nothing to do with who you are at the level of your survival, what you have, what you do, how great your attorneys are, how great your team is. All the different systems and structures you set up on a business level have nothing to do with it. Whatever's going to happen is going to happen, and at some point you're going to get that and you're going to accept that.

[A]

If our lives are predetermined, if our soul is on a journey on a map that's kind of ordained by some kind of divine order, does that mean we're all living our best lives? Because it seems like everything's happening exactly the way it's supposed to happen in the right time, right?

[B]

Yes. And it sounds wild. And there's also no co creation because creation happened all at once. And so now we're just experiencing what's already been created. And this is where it's interesting, because from your lens, when you observe someone else's life based on where you are, you'll be able to then perceive their life as being congruent with yourself, or in some way greater than yourself, or deficient to who you are. But once you realize that everyone's going through exactly what they have to go through, and you realize that all of their developmental phases are actually built in and baked in, then it's just easier to love them. It's easier to just embrace them and accept them. Because then at that point there's no condition or framework around your ability to love another person. It's just really meeting another person where they're at and just respecting their timeline and their journey and where they are on their journey. And that to me is a far more loving framework and way of being than anything else. Because I can never presume to know what's best for you. We all have to go through every single thing we have to go through and listen. It's hard enough on any given day to be who we are and to live our lives, let alone have some level of expertise as it relates to another. But what we can do is empower people in themselves and help them realize that there is some innate intelligence at work here within them. Something's breathing them, something's digesting their food, something's keeping them alive while they're sleeping. There's some greater power at work here. And eventually you're going to get to that truth in one form or another, either while you're alive or when you transition one way or another. You're going to be reacquainted with it. My hope is, as someone who loves you all, that you begin to get that now because it makes for a far more peaceful, far more harmonious experience of being you.

[A]

How do we reconcile our desire to intervene to help someone who is in desperate need for help? Let's say someone has a very bad substance addiction problem. And if we're saying this kind of predetermined thing, they're going to take as long as they need to or not to recover from this addiction, and they're tearing themselves apart. Say, for example, people who are addicted to fentanyl. I've seen them in the street, they look horrible. And from what I understand, once you start hitting a certain state, your spinal fluid and all that stuff, it's irreversible. And so are we helpless, or should we? It's just accepted as that's the fate that they're dealt and we should not do anything, or were we supposed to do something? How do we know when we should or should not intervene? Because we're messing up with the divine order.

[B]

I think there's a certain line between doing something and having no attachment to the outcome of what you're doing. So, you know, I show up every day, but I have no attachment to anyone hearing anything that I'm saying, anyone making anything that I'm saying actionable, which is probably why I enjoy it so much. You know, like, if. If I had any attachment to people actually hearing me and getting any of this, it would be painful and excruciating. It would be an exercise in frustration. Right? So in all of these cases, I feel like the reason why we interfere is because we're incapable of being with what we have to be with inside of ourselves. Eventually we can just accept people where they are and love them. And now listen, after a while, we realize that we actually have no power over others. In that example, someone who's on a path of sobriety or lost in addiction, it may take 50 interventions over the course of five years for that person to finally get to the place to accept it. But if you have an attachment to that outcome, it's going to be very painful for you. But if you can just love that person and love them where they're at and listen, loving people doesn't mean that you have to have everyone in your life, right? And have lunch with everyone. Loving people also means sometimes letting people go out and live their lives and have their journey and have their unfolding and have their experiences. And so for me, I'm very clear in the fact that I didn't come here to interfere. In fact, I'm not allowed to interfere. I can just be myself and every day faithfully without, you know, in an unwavering way, point people back to themselves and let people know that they can come back to their breath, that their life can feel like a living meditation. When they do that, they can come into the acceptance of what's going on and immediately experience relief and freedom. And that's about all I can do. Now. Whether somebody actually hears me, uses it, goes deeper into it, is curious enough. Say, what's this Panache Psych Guy all about? Let me read a book. None of that has anything to do with me. I have no interest in any of that. All I can do is show up and be myself and share from my heart what I feel like sharing in this moment with. With you. And that's it.

[A]

Let me see if I understand this and sum it up for my audience here is that if we accept that everything that's supposed to happen to us has already happened, will happen for us, but if we act out of love, with the detachment to outcomes, and we do things knowing that what we're getting out of it is just to express and share love with the world, and if we give up our desire to control, to have power, that we are living in our most powerful state, is that kind of summing up the big idea so far?

[B]

Totally, it. That's totally the big idea. And actually it's just naturally who we are. So it's not even a big idea. It's just naturally, authentically who we are. Like beyond the social media facade is love. Beyond the person who owns a company, is love, beyond the person who's in a relationship is love. So how about we just get to that and live from that instead of worrying about all of these other things?

[A]

You know what's wild is I'm going to do a presentation later today, but when I was having breakfast, thinking about a conversation today, how it's going to go, I was just thinking about a certain person and how they show up on social media and there's this movement. It seems like that people are just showing up genuinely wanting to help other people. And there's no business model there, except when there is a business model that appears. So there's a lot of talk about we're living in the attention economy. I think a subset of that is the giving economy, where people help out their neighbors, they volunteer to do things, they literally find money from other people to Give to people who are in really bad situations in their life. And we can see that. And we as audience get great joy from watching another person give to another person. That by those eyeballs, the corporations, they come in, they give them more money and it seems to be working. And so we're talking about this idea of giving without attachment. Giving as an expression of love and joy. And I just thinking maybe we're supposed to be exactly where we're supposed to be right now. Panache.

[B]

And you can totally use that in everything. You know, if you have anything that's of any value, my recommendation would be to give it away to everybody. And then people will naturally come back to you and thank you and want to participate in things. I'm so blessed in the fact that I don't have to do anything anymore. And I haven't had to do anything for a while. For me in showing up every day, it's because I genuinely want people to just be empowered in themselves. And, and that takes the form of a morning meditation for free or doing a semi private session with people or coaching people or whatever it looks like. But the form doesn't matter. It's just the fact that I get to be of service and share with people and whatever that value is is not to be determined by me. It's to be determined by the individual who come. And for every one person who gets hit, there's another who doesn't, never comes back. And it's okay, it doesn't matter. You know, it's just we've got something to share. We all have something to share. And it's time to share it now. And to not hold back and to have no care, concern or consideration around how that's received. We just have to give what's in our hearts to people fully and freely. And the more we do that, the more it works out for us. Because everything in nature supports itself. Human beings, for example, are the only species that are forgotten or a part of nature. Squirrels don't go to manifestation workshops, cows aren't in self help seminars, and zebras aren't sitting in meditation. Everything in nature is just innately, inorganically itself. And it's a part of an ecosystem that's self sustaining and self replenishing. And human beings are a part of that same ecosystem and that same benevolent cycle. So when you actually give you infinitely receive more than you ever could imagine. And it takes a lot of courage. And personally I find it the most rewarding thing to do in my life. And monetarily it makes no sense at all. And it doesn't have to, it just makes sense in terms of the contribution that you get to be. Because the truth is when you die, when all of this is over, the only thing that's going to be left is the love that you've shared. You know, when I moved to America, I literally knew one person. If my life goes to hell in the handbasket, I know people all over the country now that would happily let me sleep on a sofa and feed me a bowl of rice. That's wealthy, that's success. That's what it means to be a contribution. And when you live that way, you will never be afraid of anything. And also no corporate entity can control you can limit your expression. You're not beholden to a publisher, you're not beholden to a media brand, you're not beholden to a platform. At that point you are individually empowered, uniquely yourself and your currency. Where you come from. That love becomes the point of differentiation. And people feel it and experience it and they know it and they know it within themselves when they're in the.

[A]

Presence of that there's a burnout epidemic that no one's talking about. And we've touched on this a little bit. So my question to you is why does even the most accomplished professional people feel hollow? And how have we mistaken performance for purpose?

[B]

I feel like people have built a prison around themselves and sometimes that prison is a very beautiful one. They've upgraded their bars and the toilet seat and the toilet paper and you know, the badden, but they're still in jail. And I think that the main reason why they stuck in this prison is because they don't want to acknowledge the fact that they are in jail, that their success has become a jail, that their self image, their presentation of themselves in the world has become in and of itself a point of constraint. And so I think that people are being supercharged towards success as a solution and that ultimately they're being driven toward that. Because of course in the so called western world, having more material success is the answer to every issue and problem that you have. And while it does provide you a certain access, by no means does it solve all of your problems. You still have to deal with you, you still have to sleep at night. Your dynamics in your relationships are still the same. Nothing changes, right? It's just now you're consuming and producing at a higher level and there's always a higher level of consumption and production that never happens ends. However, you are still feeling this underlying lack of self love or self Worth or fear inside of you. So this is why there's the burnout epidemic. Because we've been sold a thesis or an idea that success is the solution to all of your problems. And so these poor human beings are on these hamster wheels of production and consumption and they're burning out and they're constantly doing it. So they just don't know any better.

[A]

What is the antidote to that?

[B]

To finally get off the hamster wheel for most people, Chris, this is going to sound crazy, but it's typically a medical diagnosis. Some breakdown in their relationship, some crisis, some calamity, they fall off the hamster wheel, Life makes them fall off the hamster wheel. And then for the first time ever, they have to start prioritizing themselves, prioritizing their well being, using their time, effort, resources and energy on themselves. And that's the entry point. The other entry point is you just have some spontaneous spiritual awakening at 3:33 in the middle the of of the night and you're one with everything in creation. But typically people are a bit hard headed. So it requires some crisis or calamity or challenge in life to get people off of that hamster wheel of incessant production as a solution when it's not.

[A]

I don't wish this for anybody, but I feel what you're saying because in my life the biggest inflection points in which I was able to go from a low low to a high high came from my perception of the events that were transpiring such that I desire to change. And for some people, they really need to quite literally hit rock bottom to have their children be estranged from them, to have their spouse or partner leave them for their former partner to steal their money or something like wow. Or their health falls apart. And so I'm hoping for people that it's of the last option that Panache shared that at 3pm or am 3:33am.

[B]

You have some metaphysical encounter with some higher power. May you all be granted with that. May you all receive that version of it.

[A]

That would be the best origin story of how you put your life together. But we'll wish that for you. We'll project our energies through the lens and through the pixels and hopefully they transmit to your eyeballs and your brain in a certain way. Okay, that was perfect. Let's move on to number two. This is a strange concept. Self optimization is spiritual gaslighting. There's a lot to unpack there. I love the phrasing of that. So how does the self help industry keep us stuck in Striving instead of thriving. Now, you have already talked a little bit about this, but please expand on this.

[B]

So you go to bed at night, your windows are clean. All of a sudden you wake up, all your windows are dirty. Next thing you know, there's a business card in your mailbox from a window cleaning company. And that's the self help industry. So the self help industry is solving imaginary problems or illusory problems that are based in the created self. They're not really solving the problem. They're not empowering people in themselves or guiding people back to the truth of who they are and empowering people to live from that self because that's totally bad for their business model. So they need people to have some level of dependency or some level of externalization of power and authority to continue to exist. And that's the whole model. All of a sudden when you realize that, well, wait a minute, I'm okay in who I am and I can love myself the way I am, that's totally inconvenient for an entire industry. That's the imperfection economy. So most of self help, most of working yourself, is all based in the imperfection economy. And everyone is trying to sell you some solution to that perceived imperfection. You know, the funny thing is, Chris, I can't find any imperfection in anybody. All I can see is a group of individuals who are individually empowered to live their lives uniquely. There's no imperfection in that. It's just that you just have to forego the need to compare your journey and who you are to somebody else's. Because what's right for you is never going to be right for anyone else. And so again, we have to forsake conformity and once again radically embrace individuality and recognize that that's our superpower. And so this is how we break free of the clutches of a lifetime of seminars working on yourselves. One modality, one technique, one psychedelic after another, one thing after another, and just finally get to a place where it's like, hang on a minute, I am perfectly qualified to be myself and to live my life and to live the truth of that and deliver that into the world. And then you break the cycle of working on this illusion of you and trying to make this illusion of you more acceptable. So self optimization is spiritual gaslighting.

[A]

Sidebar. You have a way of phrasing things and sequencing ideas together. It's making my brain hurt. I understand each individual concept, but they're chaining together. It's like, woo. I'm just curious, is it over a lifetime of speaking and thinking on these things that you're able to chain these ideas together. Or did you wake up at 3:30am and this is the way it's gotta be?

[B]

I've kind of had both. I've had the 3:30am and then I've also had the profound, gut wrenching crisis that helps you redefine everything in your life, life. And so I'm a product of both of those things. And for me, the sequencing of the ideas is just the expression of the self. And when you stop thinking about what you're saying and you finally just express what you've come here to say naturally, you'll be able to express yourself with the same continuity and the same clarity as you're experiencing, possibly in me. So for me, I'm not thinking about any of these concepts or ideas, nor am I regurgitating anyone else's philosophy or ideology. Thankfully for me, everything has come from my own personal experience being a human being and literally being with millions of people over the course of 22 years, 23 years, 24 years of being with people in a public capacity. And so it's almost like second nature, because it's natural. And in that same way, we all have something that's natural and that's why it feels like it's second nature.

[A]

Do you know the rapper Harry Mack?

[B]

No, I don't.

[A]

Okay. He's a white boy and he's very good. And he's quite famous as being able to speak off the top of his head. The kids would say, speak off the dome. He'll literally walk in the street and just start rapping about everybody he sees. And they're complex raps and they're unexpected raps. And he's telling stories and layering things. It's so easy for him that he asked people, give me three random words. He goes, okay, okay. And he goes, and he does his thing. Now when you say if you stop thinking and just express yourself, everything will flow. I'm like, I beg to differ. I know lots of people, myself included. It's not that easy, sir. Now, you may be the spiritual freestyle Harry Mack of this world, where you're like off the top of the dome.

[B]

If I'm going to be a rapper, I'm going to be Rakim, okay? He's the God mc, okay?

[A]

No arguments there. But there is a certain type of person who can connect thoughts off the top of their head unscripted.

[B]

You know what it is, Chris? Here's the thing with you, and this goes Back to what your friend shared, right? And this is true for everyone. So I'm glad that this is coming up. If you're living in the conclusion that you have to deliver the communication in a different way based on who you're communicating with, then, yes, you're going to have to modulate and modify who you are in your expression. But if you're just being yourself and you're just sharing in the way that you always share with everyone, like you were just speaking to a friend or someone that you love, then there's no reason to overthink anything because you're just expressing in words, in language, in sonic sound and vibration, your love for them. So just love everyone and just know that you're communicating your love for them, whatever that is, through whatever medium or form, whether that's music and rapping or business or whatever you're doing your presentation later, you're doing it because you love it, because you love the people in the room that you're with. And when you speak from that place, you won't have to think about it because you're not trying to garner a response from them. You're just delivering to them the essence of yourself.

[A]

Can someone who doesn't love themselves be capable of expressing love the way that you're talking about?

[B]

There are plenty of people who are expressing some definition of the word love. I don't know that it's the deepest manifestation of the word love. Ultimately, I'm somewhat of an optimist and hopeful in the fact that people are doing what they love and sharing what they love about life, and that this is the foundation of everything for me, I think there are varying degrees of that based on your love and acceptance of yourself. And again, I think that when you encounter it in the totality of the depth of an individual and you realize what love is. For me, love is just to be able to be with you. If I can just be with you the way that you are, then I'm loving you. Love isn't the romantic conditioned notion of what love is, where there's conditions and requirements and you know you have to feel a certain way. Because for me, love is an authentic manifestation of who I am at the love of my soul or my being. Call it whatever you want, the essence of who I am. And so my being with you is my loving.

[A]

For some reason, when you were speaking, I was hearing the voice of the Beatles with the track. As you're speaking those words to life, there was some melody that was playing my head. It was quite beautiful. I don't know how to share that, but I'm like, I'm just hearing the musicality of what you're saying.

[B]

Well, they spent a lot of time in India studying Eastern philosophy, so actually, all you need is love is probably the song that you were thinking about. And actually, that song is a complete articulation of an ancient Sanskrit text. So they just basically translated it into an English context and delivered it in the form of popular sound. And so people don't know that when they're connecting with that song, they're connecting with an eternal truth that reverberates within us all.

[A]

Beautiful. Big idea number three. Transformation lives in the body, not the brain. So what is the neuroscience of nervous system regulation and why mindset work alone doesn't lead to sustainable change?

[B]

Because conceptually you can understand who you are, but until it becomes an experiential reality, it's not real for you, it's not true for you. So, for example, everyone knows that they can be peaceful, but until they've had the tangible, felt experience of peace, and that's where the commitment, consistency, and repetition comes in, it's not real for them. They can't come back to it because it doesn't authentically originate from them. They're still doing some technique or modality in order to experience it. But that's a fabricated, manufactured sense of peace that they're experiencing in their meditation room or while they're doing Shavasana in their yoga studio at the end of their class. It's not sustainable. But once you finally, through your commitment, consistency and repetition, actually embody it and have an embodied relationship with peace, then you can come back to your breath and you can experience it in any moment. And then your life becomes a living meditation.

[A]

Can you tell by looking at people and feeling their energy how in alignment they are?

[B]

I can tell by lots of different factors, but for me, thankfully, I. As I've gotten older, the less I want to know. So I've gotten to a place where it's like, I just don't want to know unless someone's particularly stuck, and then I need to have some kind of intuition or guidance around where they're stuck, then, sure. But outside of that, I really don't want to know.

[A]

Okay, Reclaiming your natural wholeness once again, huh? How does emotional resilience, clarity, and creativity emerge when we reconnect with who we really are?

[B]

So actually, what you just shared was beautiful because what's happening right now is people are walking around living in this delusion that there's some vibrational hierarchy or that there's some state of being that's greater than another. So we have quote unquote, high vibe communities, right? Or people that are into this whole thing about energy. But if energy is always infinite, then there is no higher vibration or lower vibration. There's just different manifestations of the same infinite potential. And after a while we have to recognize that. So we've got to overcome this common misconception in spirituality and personal development in every other space and genre that we're operating in, that there's some state that is greater than another. And so once we get to this place where there's just infinite energy because there is only ever just infinite energy, then we begin to recognize, well, wait a minute, there's nothing wrong with my emotions. My emotions are just another manifestation of that same infinite energy. My thoughts aren't getting in the way. They're just another expression of that same infinite energy. My body and what I'm going through in my body is just another manifestation of that same infinite energy. That in fact everything in my life is a manifestation of that same infinite energy. And this is how we reconcile the discrepancy that has been falsely superimposed over all of us. That someone's high vibrational, someone's low vibrational, that emotions are wrong or bad, that certain emotions are good, certain emotions need to be worked on and addressed. And that's not it at all. We've got to get to a place where there's a platform of inclusivity and acceptance of of all that we are. And a place where all that we are belongs within us. And that place is in the heart.

[A]

As one who has struggled with both being hyper emotional and almost devoid of emotion, I'm not sure where I net out on this. My younger self was riding that roller coaster of the high highs and the low lows, feeling just emptiness inside my belly and also then moving towards a state where I believed in that if I can observe my emotions separate from feeling them, then I have a higher level of awareness. I can make different decisions. And that's the kind of person I am today. Am I doing something that's unnatural or not connected by doing that?

[B]

I think that both of those versions of you are 100% adorable and lovable. And I think that we're living in a world where now stoicism has been kind of sold as a solution to life's existential question, crisis and dilemma. And we have this kind of false sense of stoicism, which is the Zen like approach to inner reality, but it doesn't change the inner reality. So for me, again, there's a greater kind of level of agency and acceptance and embracing who we are, that inclusivity that we cultivate for ourselves, than there is in this kind of false sense of stoicism where we have the Zen like relationship with ourselves that's basically disconnected from the experience. So, yes, we're what we're aware of, but we're also the one who's aware. We're both. Why can't we just be both? We can be both. Why can't Chris be the Chris that was overly emotional and also the Chris that's more aware of the emotions? And maybe being overly emotional and being on the highs and lows of the roller coaster ride is now what's allowed you to recognize in your maturity that you're neither. You're neither the high nor the low. You're the constant, which is the awareness itself.

[A]

Oh, I'm multidimensional, sir, so I can both at the same time.

[B]

Put that on your LinkedIn, young man. UPDATE your bio immediately.

[A]

I might do that. People are gonna freak out. I might do that. Okay, we'll figure it out. Put a pin on this and audience community. You'll see if I've done this or not.

[B]

But also, Chris, the truth is you are multi dimensional because you are successfully navigating life and living, and you are also infinite and transcendent. So you're both. So as much as it's true about you, it's true about everybody who's watching this, right? So let's all do it. Everybody do it.

[A]

Well, in that respect, then, are we all multi dimensional then?

[B]

Yes, of course. Because we're having a physical experience filled with form and phenomenon, and we're also this infinite formless presence at the same time. It's just that the part of us that's form and phenomenon comes to a finality. The part that's formless, infinite presence is infinite, eternal and immortal. It has no end. So we're both always multitasking. We're both in every moment. We're the form, we're the activity. And we're also the one who's aware of the activity. We're both.

[A]

Okay, I know you don't care about social media, but do you tweet or do you do Instagram posts where you just grab those phrases and then drop them on the Internet?

[B]

I have people who do that stuff for me. Social media is a bit of a black hole for me. And basically it just takes too much time. And then if people end up posting on them, they don't get a response, they get upset. So all of my social media profiles are managed by a team, which is much better for me. I'd rather have that time to be an Uber driver for my children or be buying Pokemon cards for my daughter, or Labubus for my older daughters, or sports cards for my 10 year old son. So this is my real job. You see, Chris, I'm doing everything just so I can be an Uber driver and a buyer of Pokemon cards, sports cards and Labubus.

[A]

You're a task rabbit, dad. That's what you are.

[B]

I am multi dimensional, my man.

[A]

Okay, number five, last but not least, what is the 21 minute daily practice that's rewiring lives? What's the practical embodied ritual that listeners can implement immediately to shift from burnout to grounded purpose?

[B]

I think the main thing is to recognize that meditation is not a stagnant experience, that you happen in a manufactured space or environment, that meditation is a natural state. So meditation is always happening. And so all we have to do is come back to our breath and be aware of every inhalation and exhalation. And I wholeheartedly encourage people to do this throughout the day or to just constantly be aware of their breath. And all of a sudden you'll notice that effortlessly you'll begin to move into a meditative state while engaged in your daily lives. And it goes back to the fact that yes, we're engaged in the world and yes, we're also the one who's aware of that and this infinite potential, that's the source of it all. And so the breath becomes a wonderful bridge through which we can pivot out of the stress and the overwhelm of life and living into this unmanifest, infinite potential. That's who we really are. And so rest in the awareness of your breath because it really does transform your life into a living meditation. And you may find actually that it's far more effective than actually even meditating. We get together every morning, I'll talk for 30 minutes, we'll do a 21 minute meditation. And they're always fun and joyful and light hearted and we're always integrating whatever's going on into it. And then I always encourage people, listen, don't let it end here. Come back to your breath. Rest in the awareness of your breath. Move through your daily life. No one knows you're doing doing it except you. It's not weird, it's not woo woo. You're not going to start wearing tie dye. Everything's fine, you're not smelling like patchouli, you're going to be fine. You can navigate every high powered business meeting, every major financial decision, every relationship and life decision from this place of connection. Give yourself the gift of your peace. And then think, move and act from there.

[A]

I think I know what it means, but for a dummy, what does it mean to rest in the awareness of your breath.

[B]

So breath is a naturally occurring thing. So we're not breathing, it's just happening. So the very second we start to become aware of what's happening, we begin to all of a sudden realize that, well, actually there's a lot of life that's just happening that is beyond the scope of my individual influence and power. And so in focusing our attention, because meditation really is just observing yourself without judgment. So an avenue through which you observe yourself without judgment is to just be aware of your breath, to be aware of what's naturally occurring, that life is naturally occurring, that everything in our experience is just naturally occurring. It's all just happening. And the only difference is when you're aware of your breath, you're aware of the fact that it's happening. You're aware of the fact that there's something taking care of you. Even if you're an atheist and have no belief in a higher power, look at all the scientific processes that have to happen in nature in order for you to be able to breathe. So always be aware of your breath.

[A]

The funny thing is breathing is the most natural thing that you can do. Except for when you say be aware of your breath. Now I'm like, now I'm thinking about the breathing part and it requires more labor, right?

[B]

But after a while you won't. You'll just be aware of the fact that it's there. That's where the commitment, the consistency and repetition comes in. I discovered that meditation is fundamentally useless. If you're just peaceful at home. What happens when you're on the 4 or 5? What happens when you're on the 10 freeway? What happens when you're navigating your way through Santa Monica or Beverly Hills and dealing with life? What version of yourself do you want to deliver into these experiences? The peaceful version of you? The connected version of you, or the overwhelmed survival based you? And so the breath is an entry point. It's a bridge out of the survival based self into the whole and complete manifestation of the truth of who you are. So use it.

[A]

Before we wrap up, I want to ask you a couple of rapid fire things. But I want to point people to where they can dive deeper into. Into you and the things that you talk about. Where do we send them?

[B]

You can head over to panachesai.com. all the information's there. You can also just sign up for the free meditation. It's via Zoom, totally free, every morning. All the information's on the website. You can also just go to YouTube. I post a meditation there every week just so people can have access to it. And so, yeah, come and connect. If it resonates with you, I'd love to. Love to meet you.

[A]

Wonderful. So for those of you who are listening to this is Panache Desai. Panache is like the way it sounds. Desai's D E S A I. All right, now, fun thing. Not deep, meditative or anything like that. I see a few things in the background I want to ask you about. Let me see here. Four things. Okay. And answer this any which way you want. Tell me about the green, brightly colored glasses that are clipped onto your T shirt.

[B]

So I actually love these. I've become more and more expressive with my eyewear because now I am wearing it more and more as I've gotten older. And so I figured, well, why not just express aspects of my personality through my glasses? And so I've got this green pair that I love. I've got a blue pair and a translucent pair. But so far, this green pair has been my favorite pair. So that's the. That's that it's aging and diminishing eyesight.

[A]

You know what? I would encourage you to continue to rock one or more bold pieces of color, statement piece, because it really just accentuates everything else. It's a little bit of spice on an otherwise pretty normal dish. And I like that some people go over the top, and everything's over the top. I think a little bit goes a long way. Okay, let me ask you about the painting behind you. What is that? Who is it? Why do you have it behind you?

[B]

So actually, honestly, I can't remember the name of the artist at all. I was walking down the street in Naples, Florida, where I used to live, and I walked past it, and it was just so alive and vibrant to me. And I bought as a precursor to moving to Nashville, Tennessee. And of course, now that I'm in Nashville, Tennessee, that makes perfect sense because the artist whose name escapes me, painted it during a live jazz rendition in a nightclub. And so I didn't know that I was moving to, like, a music capital. Some part of me knew. And so I purchased that Just because I loved the vibrancy and the aliveness of it, the orchestration of it. The deepest subtext behind that is that each one of us is one of those instruments, and there's a higher intelligence playing every one of those instruments.

[A]

There we go. There's a deeper metaphor unpacked right in there. Okay. I thought we were the musicians. And then you're like, no, you're the instrument.

[B]

Definitely not the musicians. You don't want that. Just be the instrument. Be the saxophone. It's much easier.

[A]

I'll be a symbol or a triangle. So we just hit me with a stick. Okay, next up is we see, and I think I know why, but yellow Pikachu plushie behind you. Tell me about the Pikachu.

[B]

Sports cards and Pokemon cards have transformed my relationship with my children as a result of Pokemon cards and sports cards. And now Labubus, my children are learning how to take care of things, how to value things, how to the fact that we can send things off to get graded, and then they're preserved, and that increases their value. And so this is the beginning of my discovering who they are and also really discovering that when they get older, I'm going to love supporting them in their ventures and their endeavors. And so it's fantastic because it introduces them to economy. It introduces them to trading, to sharing, to value. It introduces them to respecting things and honoring things, taking care of things to preserve value. And so it's been life altering. It also gives me a common language that I have with them and a common point of interest. And so for anyone who's a parent out there, it doesn't have to be Pokemon. It doesn't have to be sports cards. It doesn't have to be Labubus. Find some thread of commonality with your kids. It will change your life and your parenting experience.

[A]

The last one is the crystals behind you. I see a couple, I believe. Tell me about the crystals.

[B]

Mainly just gifts, actually. So somebody gave me that crystal there and these two we had in our old house, and I just like them. People can attribute all kinds of spiritual meaning to those, but they're just amethyst crystals. I just happen to like them. I find them beautiful and aesthetically pleasing, just like the Keith Haring book and the Jesus Collette and the Rochenberg. You know, I don't know. It just kind of works. I just feel it, you know, so it's. It's all there because it just resonates with me.

[A]

I love that you have on display behind you, kind of having your back While the different assortment of things, from a kind of impressionistic oil painting, as far as I can tell, to a very inexpensive Pikachu plushie, to these crystals that someone gave you as a kind of an indicator of, like, you're deeply complicated, all these different things that you like, and sometimes these paradoxical things. You are a deeply spiritual, intellectual person, and yet you're going to be the Uber driver and the person who helps your children collect and preserve their Pokemon cards. And I like that sense of whimsy and playfulness in your eyewear selection. And just this assortment of, hey, I'm going to be 100% myself. And you said this. We're the most qualified people to be ourselves. So let's not fight it. Let's lean in. I've enjoyed our conversation. Do you have any kind of final thoughts or anything you would like me to ask you about that you want to share?

[B]

I've loved my time with you, and I just want you to wholeheartedly embrace your multidimensionality, my friend, and never let anyone pigeonhole you in the third dimension ever again.

[A]

Now, one final thought to that, because it's been a fun conversation with you, is that I find that people want to put labels on people and frame things all the time. I hope that in my maturity, my emotional, spiritual maturity, that it no longer bothers me. It's just you have your right to. Your observation and your frame and whatever it is doesn't affect me at all. So I just move on. I don't feel the need to respond as I did in my youth, where I'm like, let's go tit for tat. No, I need to correct you on these things because as you know, the more content, the more public you are, the more likely people are going to say all kinds of things. And I just want to be at peace with myself.

[B]

That's why it's just easier to love people, because otherwise points of intellectual divide become rap battles online. And we, Lord knows, we don't need any more of those. So it's just so much better to just recognize that everyone has their own perspective. They have the perspective that they're supposed to have. For them. It may not resonate with you, and that's okay, but by all means, we have to respect their right to have that perspective and to live that truth, you know, more power to them.

[A]

Wonderful. Well, my guest today has been Panache Desai. He's the author of two bestselling books, Discovering youg Soul, Signature, and you'd Are Enough. You're enough, my friend. And if you want to join him on his meditations, his zoom calls, Please go to panachtasai.com, look up what he's doing. He does a lot of different things. And so, hopefully, if this conversation touches you on a soul level or you have to listen to it 17 times to unpack everything that's said, I would encourage you to dig deeper and find out more about Panache. Panache. Thank you very much for being my guest today, Chris.

[B]

I've loved my time with you. I hope we get to do it again. This has been an absolute blast. Thank you, my friend, for having me on.

[A]

Wonderful. And I hope to make my way towards your neck of the woods, because I do want to just immerse myself in the music culture that's there.

[B]

Well, when you're out here, let me know. We'll do it.