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- [00:00]
A
For me, the AI aspect of things, yes, it could be great in some of the stuff if you are going to use those tools. And yes, some people will choose that route, but other people will not. And I, I do feel like that you're going to be more of a valuable image maker, designer, what have you if you be true to the process. My name is Scott Klum here with Chris do you are listening to the future
- [00:29]
B
before we start, Scott Klum has been shaping the visual language of snowboarding, skateboarding and editorial design for 40 plus years. If you grew up around snowboarding or skate culture, his work is probably somewhere in your memory. You just didn't know his name. Occasionally this show goes here to the people the industry knows but hasn't made famous yet. I'm glad we finally get to this one. Now I have this quote from Paul Rand. Art is an idea that has found its perfect visual expression and design is the vehicle by which this expression is made possible. Now you describe yourself on your own website as an artist and designer. Usually I ask people which are you more of? But you use an and so we'll leave it there. So I'm just curious, what is Scott Klum's definition of what is the difference between the two?
- [01:16]
C
I guess I use the terms Chris because I'll differentiate between personal work and commercial work. Like if I'm working on something for a commercial client, I'm not going to call it art. I might internally, but you're going to refer to it as, as design or creative direction. And then art is when we all walk out our front door in the morning and whatever our thought process is and whatever we can find. Because for myself I could be walking down the sidewalk and I find these beautiful materials and there might be eroded or they go together a certain way and I'm just like overjoyed, you know what I mean? I'm like, okay, this is amazing inspiration. And for me that's design on the page.
- [02:04]
B
So there's a lot of young people out in the world who are designers looking for professional commercial work, working with clients and they seem to not understand the difference between doing personal and commercial work. One person pays your bills, the other is about a self expression and your point of view in the world and it seems to mess them up. They have this attitude and opinion that clients get in the way of them doing good work when in fact clients allow them a livelihood. So I'm just curious about your perspective. You've been doing this a long time.
- [02:33]
C
Well, couple things about that. I feel like that Sometimes there might be a lack of respect for the journey you're on. I have run into that before with a lot of people of, like, well, I'm trying to do this work, but it's getting in the way of what
- [02:48]
A
I really want to do.
- [02:49]
C
And I understand that feeling. We probably all run into that, but where that came from, I really don't know. Unless it's the society we live in where everything's like, immediate gratification. And I never expected anything when I
- [03:02]
A
was in art school.
- [03:03]
C
I never thought I would be in this position whatsoever. I just thought I was going to be part of the machine and go through one thing after another. But internally, I really did love it. So I never had that. That feeling of, like, oh, everything's getting in the way. And it's funny you bring this up, because I do hear that a lot.
- [03:22]
B
It seems like sometimes there's. There's two things. Number one is some kind of sense of entitlement. Like, I get to make money while doing my art, and I don't want to make compromises, and it creates a lot of friction. Do you know who Alain de Botton is? He's. He runs a company called the School of Life.
- [03:37]
C
No, I don't.
- [03:38]
B
He's a British guy, I believe, and he's a philosopher, and he's written books, and he has a really interesting take. He's obviously very well read. He talks about the romantic period in art and literature, and we start to understand these ideas about these feelings. And he says, prior to that period in time, we did things out of utility. So maybe we see ourselves kind of in the modern era in this romantic version, where life is supposed to be beautiful and the sparks and fireworks and all this kind of stuff, and we're supposed to just do stuff, and people celebrate us for these things. Now, it's great if you can get it, but reality is, we gotta work.
- [04:14]
C
Yeah, I love what you said. I think that might be more of a fantasy. You do use a great word, utility. I'll ask all the young folks that are out there listening, or anybody that's out there listening, like, what's wrong with utility? What's wrong with having the client move things around or you reacting to it like, isn't that what we signed up for? I've never felt like my work was
- [04:38]
A
perfect or, frankly, that great.
- [04:41]
C
I was just being honest with myself because it was the process that I was going through that was really paying me back. So for me to think otherwise, I
- [04:51]
A
just never saw it. But I do agree with you, I
- [04:54]
C
feel like there's a lot of, I'm not going to call them answers, but some gratification short lived. And social media today where, you know, you take folks who start their own business and you know, we all know
- [05:05]
A
that's a hard thing.
- [05:06]
C
But I think that that fantasy of doing that, some people think, oh, I'm going to do that, I'm not going to go work for someone else, I'm going to go do my own thing. And it becomes a bit more selfish. And then they find out, well, this machine takes a lot to keep running, so you're kind of doing the same thing. I do think that by default, programs and buttons and shortcuts and all that have trained us to think, I don't need to go there, I'm just going to do this and push the button, show me where the filter is, you know. No, Scott, I'm not going to go down the street and get all this ephemera and bring it back and paste it up, whatever. I'm just pushing this button and that's
- [05:42]
A
all I'm going to do. That attitude I think is very prevalent
- [05:46]
C
and it's upsetting to me because you're missing out. You're short changing yourself.
- [05:51]
B
You're a rare person in that this artist and there's this athlete as professional writer and all that kind of stuff. So that's kind of rare in our world. We think of designers as not the most athletically inclined to. I'm just curious, which came first? Which identity was strongest for you at the earliest age? Was it the athlete or was it there was an artist who just like didn't know how to express himself but was finding a way.
- [06:12]
C
I will answer that immediately.
- [06:14]
A
It's the art. My parents when I was young helped
- [06:18]
C
reveal that to me.
- [06:19]
A
I would do drawings of the family dog and odds and ends or, you
- [06:23]
C
know, whatever the case may be and
- [06:25]
A
I can't tell you why. I was just very fascinated and interested in being able to capture to me and even today those things to me are always moments and we all love those moments, you know, so whether you could be a photographer, you could be an illustrator, you know, whatever. I think that's one of the things that drags me really in the profession is capturing those moments. I love those things. Then came the athletes. So.
- [06:54]
B
And how did you find a way into say graphic design? Because automatically people assume, oh, you're a designer, you must know how to draw. That's not the case. They're different disciplines, right?
- [07:02]
C
Yeah.
- [07:03]
A
So graphic design for Me, I decided to go into design because I was a painter illustrator because I thought that that language was going to transfer to ad agencies and messaging. So I was wrong about that. But in that journey I discovered the utilitarian use of the tools. And for anybody that inks up a logo and then goes to put it under a stat camera, you know, not anymore, but at that point and you go through this process and you're holding this in your hand like it's a very wolf rewarding thing. So. So for me, that process and learning to be a graphic designer was amazing. But after that, to kind of back up what I was saying, I got a degree in fine art because I kind of wanted to round out that thinking process because graphic design process forces you to think a certain way. And I could never get away from the fine art aspect of it of like, okay, I'm going to go deeper here with this thought and this notion. So I need to discover a deeper sense here. And I think what that's. Frankly, a lot of people ask me as you how I got started or how that all that happened and those two disciplines are really how it all happened. And it's really what's made my work and the recognition be what it is because it's a combination of all that sins.
- [08:38]
B
You know, you mentioned like this click a button kind of culture that we seem to be living in. It's only been made worse or accelerated with AI that even non trained designers now can create things that have the appearance of finish and intentionality. When if you know better, you're like, wait a minute, AI might get you 80, 90% of the way, but it's that last 10% that it's really not good at. And the people, they don't have that eye, that aesthetic, the training, the rigor, they're like, that's good enough, let's get that out. And then that'll make people like us cringe a little bit. And it's like, you know what, somebody is asleep at the wheel here. So what is your take on AI? What's your stance on this? And is there a warning for younger generations here?
- [09:20]
A
Like anything that's new, we're all curious about it. I think that you go back to the utility of making art, making images, whatever the case may be, this new technology erases some of the curiosity. So for me, the AI aspect of things, yes, it could be great. In some of the stuff like say you're sitting in a room with a client and we're doing revs for two hours. And we're using AI just to come up with ideas or what things could look like or these appropriations or whatever, that could be cool. But execution wise, I'd leave that out because I would feel like I'm cheating and myself like, say you and I are working on a project together. I honestly want to know and see you work. If AI does that, we're never having that conversation. So for the folks in the audience too, like, if you are going to use those tools, and yes, some people will choose that route, but other people will not. And I, I do feel like that you're going to be more of a valuable experience, image maker, designer, what have you. If you be true to the process.
- [10:29]
B
I saw on your website, it described you as the world's most prolific snowboard graphic designer. And you've been doing this for decades. Like when I was still in school, you're already doing this work and you're still doing this work. So I want to ask you this question. What keeps you going?
- [10:45]
A
I don't know. I think I've just been blessed with a very abundant soul, frankly. But really, what's kept me going, I get asked this a lot. So I started doing graphics for Sims in early 85, and I'm still doing graphics for Sims 40 years later. I have two new boards that came out with Sims Japan, but because of Tom and I's relationship since he passed in 12. But from when I was young and growing up, I was his first design director in Santa Barbara. So all those graphics I did right on up till today, it's because I care about that brand and my life and soul is in that brand. So that's one side of doing graphics for snowboards and then the other side is some companies will just ask me to help them or they want a certain perspective. I did a lot of great work with yes. And David was just fantastic about explaining what they were looking for and given me the leeway to make changes and do all this stuff. So we had, as far as, yes, snowboards go. There's this amazing collaboration between everybody there that was fantastic. So I think though, that your definite answer is this. I'm just moved by snowboarding in general. When I'm making turns in the powder or whatever, I just, I'm relating to that, to the art of the whole thing. And then when you're not on the mountain and it is graphics time and someone wants me to maybe translate that or offer a perspective with them, that's Harpenid resists.
- [12:22]
B
It feels like snowboarding is very much Part of your DNA. You're in the culture of the culture, shaping the culture. You speak for the culture. What if all the client work you do, none of it can be for snowboarding related industries or skateboarding. Now, how do you feel?
- [12:37]
A
Challenged. Challenge. So great perspective. And I will tell you, I'm like all of us, I don't mean just me, but I'm a deep thinker and I'm a focus person and I'm a scribbler and I think out of all my work, say the last five years, the human heart is just dying to come out so that you know, I've been there. Whether it's a scratch or whether things aren't quite aligned. I do like as you know, doing the work that where things aren't quite arranged perfectly like there's just no such thing. Anyway, to back up your your question, I've done work for intel for years, worked on their campaigns and that was challenging, but challenging in a good way because here I am trying to translate my maybe action sports focus to a more technical side of things and how do I embody partners in a tech world to understand the campaigns and the marketing we're putting out there. So and every time, Chris, we'd have meetings or whatever and every time we would always land back on the human side of things. It wasn't so much the design of it it things, although that helped, but it was actually the psychology of how it was going to be received.
- [14:01]
B
I wanted to ask this one question for you. If you can just look back into time from the very first moments in which you're doing design work until now, has there been a single project that stands out the most? The one that you hold dear to your heart? And like that felt like the either it just came quickly and it was perfect, or there's some challenge you had to overcome, but holds a special place
- [14:22]
A
in your heart, I would say. As a whole, the work I did for Moral Snowboards was a huge catalyst for my thinking. For the rewards I got personal and audience wise because I was thinking about this earlier when I was at Sims. Tom, who I loved and respected immensely, he was like a brother to me. So the graphic direction that he wanted was different. He and I worked on that together. And a lot of the graphics that we did, they're great, but they represent, they really represent what Tom wanted Sims to be. So moving forward, when I left SIMS in early 90s, almost three months later, Rob Morrow asks me to come to Salem, Oregon and says I'm starting my own company. I Want you to do the graphics. Well, it was a complete flip because there's a point where as a designer and a graphic designer and an artist, I really wanted to start over with the DNA of how punk rock snowboarding was. To me, it was not blue skies and pretty this and pretty that. To me it was sweat, long hair, rainy days, slushy snow. So to me, I felt like this is the grit, this is where the soul's coming from. A lot of the graphics at Morrow started off with like this perceptive reality, what snowboarding really was like, as well as like that deep rooted DNA of graphic design too. So I felt like that was the language, like. Like no one was doing that at all. And I felt like that was a language that was developing in my mind and amongst the crew at Marl Snowboards. I definitely couldn't have done it without them, although I executed. But every single person there really helped shape that language. I want to back that up with the fact that my process at Morrow Snowboards was a process I carried over from Sims, where I hand cut a lot of my own graphics. So I was a dark room technician at Vision Sports too, while I was doing Sims. And what that means is we would do black lines for designs and then you would take this black line. There's no color, just the graphic. And then we would make a negative out of it in the dark room on film at 100%. And then what we would do is tape off the sections we didn't want and then you'd make a positive out of that. And that's the positive that goes on your. Whatever layer your silk screen is going to be. So I handmade all of my film layers for moral snowboards, every single one of them. We're talking about using opaque pens and registration marks that you peel off and put on and huge light tables. So when you do that process and I see you smiling, because you know what I'm talking about, when you use that process, you are married to that graphic, like you are married to that horror production. So for me, building that was quite tedious. And it took a huge toll on me. I remember at the time that I would get really run down. I was doing like 14 boards or whatever. And then I would keep it limited to three or four colors. But the day that those screens came back on a truck, like they'd be delivered at a factory. I would stay at the factory for a couple weeks and I would print every night my own, on my own, because I set up the. The silkscreen aspect in the Factory. And so I would go in with cardboard and some experimental top sheets and I would do test prints from these screens. And it was phenomenal. I mean, it was just amazing. So then I would have these test prints and then we would number them and then we would, I would present them to everyone. And once we locked off on what color do you want or what we wanted, those rest of them got put away. And then those were our models for the, for the graphics for the year. So for the designers out there, you're coming up with an idea and then you're putting this on a clear piece of film and you're hand making your own negatives and positives. And then you're sending this out to a screen company and they're burning you screens and you get the screens back and now you're building colors and you're printing one section at a time. You're loading the screen with ink, you're waiting for things to dry and you're making mistakes and you see the beauty in these mistakes. And it's a process and it is the anti of what we were talking about using a program or whatever. So when you get that in your, in your mind or in your body, like you can never get rid of it. It's like anybody out there who sees
- [19:10]
C
like their best show show, like maybe
- [19:11]
A
they've seen the Stones or the who or maybe they'd seen Rolls, I don't know, whatever your deals, like, you're never going to forget that. So I think the, that's what I'm trying to say is some of the design processes that I carried forward in my career, I've just never forgotten.
- [19:24]
B
Okay, I'm gonna ask you one more question about Morrow, because I know you're a co founder and an early pioneer in shaping the visual language of graphics for snowboarding. For people who don't understand, do your best to describe the visual the language that you were talking about here. Cause you said Sims had a specific look, but Mara was more what you wanted to do, right? You can play more. So how would you describe that aesthetic?
- [19:49]
A
That aesthetic, like I said, came from everyone involved in the company. And we had a lot of discussions and sometimes it was me just in my studio by myself. But the aesthetic came from zero appropriation. I felt like it would be really interesting. Skis or snowboards had a very locked up little area to put the dimensions or this that I'm like, you know what, let's make graphics out of those. Maybe they're unreadable. Maybe the certain centimeter Length. So you knew a length you were buying was more prominent. I really started breaking down the language of, like, riders discussing, like, as, you know, like, you start to develop your own vernacular, right. And I would translate that into imagery and maybe the typography, some of the shapes got blown up and it kind of helped portray a turn or whatever. So the visual language really got developed from, like I said, I guess, misappropriation, because I wanted to challenge the norm. We'd seen everything at this point. Everything was kind of logo driven, which, again, was really beautiful at the time. And Morrow, I want to give a super high five to all of the factory guys and all the team around, frankly. But when you walked into that factory, there was a real DIY sense there. In the whole factory, like, Rob would have models for boots or binding that were full of tape and wiring and cabling to hold things and rivets and stuff. And for an artist, anyone really, who's interested in materials, like, when you see this, you're like, oh, my gosh. Like, I see where this is going. And when you see this DIY feel, it's so motivating to kind of take things to the next level. And any of the DIY stuff that you see, whether it's street art or. Or your neighbor printing shirts or whatever the case may be, like, when you see them, it's unmistakable. Like, you're like, I got it. I got to do that. So, because Mauro was one of the only companies in the US at that time with the manufacturing facility right there, I spent a lot of time down there on that floor, and I was inspired by that DIY stuff. And that just really helped cultivate my language of like, okay, here was the mood we were in. I'm going to translate this and put this in graphic form on there, and it's going to be up. So I want to thank everyone at Morrow, because everybody really paid a hand in helping with that process because we were kind of like a family, like, not come back. We were. We were a family in Ozor Bays area. It was fantastic. And everybody shared and everything. So I think people who do know the Morrow work, or if you want to look back on it, I challenged all of it. Not for my ido, just because, like, that's what it felt like in the factory or as a rider. And anybody who does ride, we all know what 4ft of powder looks and feels like. And when you're at the height of those emotions, that's what I was kind of trying to put down a little bit. You Know of like, hey, let me take you here type of thing.
- [22:58]
B
I'll talk about something. Before we went on air, you were talking about like the feed in Japan and this trip and I'm going shop with all these guys, trying to help them find their style. And, and my buddy, he's a very good friend of mine, he's like, you know, I trust your instincts when you say that piece is good. I think that's wacky. It's good. Like when you pick art, that's the one that's going to be hot. I said, please, please, please. I cannot bear the responsibility of you making decisions based on what this one guy likes. It works for me. I love it. But I always find this thing. If you see a whole season a collection from any designer, I'm looking for the weird thing. I'm looking for the thing that's not down the center. So I have to ask you this question. And maybe we're similar. Where I go out, I'm like, I don't want the same car. I want this other weird car. I want that weird shirt or that weird jacket or that weird skateboard. And it always surprises me, why is this one still available? And why do they make so few? I think they know.
- [23:55]
A
I think you're right about that. And sometimes they're just like, they're the best articles. You're like, whoa. Like, and you look back on it five years and you're like, I can't believe I still have it. Or whatever the case may be. I don't know, maybe there's someone like yourself in there who pushed and forced their way to get this out into the public. And there's 10 of them and Chris comes along and buys one.
- [24:19]
B
So maybe you and I and people like us, we design things for other people just like us, but the majority of people aren't like us.
- [24:28]
A
Well, I've been accused of that before.
- [24:32]
B
A thought popped in my mind. Perhaps the work that you do, maybe just for you and me and people like us, is kind of like the equivalent of a dog whistle. And I hate to say it because it's going to sound very self important. The dog whistle. Do you have taste? Do you see the world the way I see it? Because if you do, let's have a conversation.
- [24:51]
A
I was reluctant to say what you just said because doing editorial design that I've done a good part of my career, I feel I could get an opportunity to create a deeper self awareness for the readers. Like, hey, I'm going to show you something. You've Never seen before. You might think it completely sucks or whatever, but the worst thing I could do as a designer is give you something you've already seen.
- [25:15]
C
Why would I do that?
- [25:16]
A
So I've always felt like, Chris, that I need to make an educated decision to do a better job.
- [25:22]
B
Well, you've been behind the scenes, doing the things and shaping the culture for Bikini. For Bikini Magazine Stick, Nylon. And I'm just curious about this thing that the Internet kill editorial. Did it kill the magazine? Because I had a voracious appetite for magazines. And I remember, like, scanning not just for the editorial content or the articles, but for. For the ads and just seeing, like, what is high society or low society? What does it look like? And now you pick up a magazine like Wired. It's thin. It's a pamphlet now.
- [25:57]
A
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Five pages.
- [26:00]
B
Yes. It's. It's so skinny. Because none of the ads exist anymore. Cause they'd rather spend money where they can track and have analytics. So what's your feeling about all that?
- [26:09]
A
Well, I'll tell you exactly what my feeling is about that. I'm starting a new magazine. About a year and a half ago, I decided to start a magazine because I do love editorial. I love the process. I love the whole thing. And I wanted to get back to proving that the things that we love. Like you were just saying, like, spending all that money on magazines just because you're compelled to do it. I mean, that's a pretty cool thing. I think a lot of people are, are, or were into magazine culture, and I think our social platforms just ripped them down. That being said, I wanted to put my money where my mouth is and bring a printed magazine back. And we've literally been kind of reinventing the page.
- [26:50]
B
What vertical is it in?
- [26:51]
A
It's probably more art and culture. Say you have a neighbor, and he or she is this unbelievable cook, fantastic with food. They are an artist with the process, right?
- [27:05]
C
And you go over to their house,
- [27:06]
A
and they don't have the best pots and pans. They don't have the best kitchen. They live in this flat. And when you see these moments where all the ephemera is laid out, the used pans, the used stuff, the mismatch here and there. And then you're watching this cooking process, you're watching this person go through this with their hands, and those are the moments that are in the magazine. So you don't need to be a rock star to be in the magazine. So, anyway, if I'm coming full circle here with all the Things you and I spoke about. I think this magazine will be a culmination of what I've been believing in, what my partners around me are believing in. People like yourself, people like Marvin and our other friends and our daily comrades. I think it'll be a welcome thing to have this back on the printed page and to challenge genre of prints that we're doing these days.
- [28:02]
B
Publishing cycles, quarterly, BI monthly, monthly.
- [28:05]
A
This was a rough one for us to figure out, but it'll probably end up being like twice a year and some of these. I'm not sure I want to say, you know what to expect because you really don't know what to expect. Because if you know my work, that's one thing, but I've really taken it past. Again, like I was seeing in earlier as we were talking, like I like to deliver the unexpected, not to do the unexpected just because I owe it to my audience to give them things they haven't seen before.
- [28:35]
B
Before we wrap up, is there a name for the magazine and is there an on the shelf date so that people can set their calendars?
- [28:43]
A
So the magazine title is called Walk W A L K. And the shelf date it'll be this spring 2026. So give me grace everyone, because as we all know, and if Marvin listens to this, he definitely knows how hard it is to manage a hundred things every day. But I've got a great team with me and my partner Mark Moran, who works at Portland State University. He's been instrumental in helping formulate these ideas and has been a great filter, both of us working and challenging one another.
- [29:21]
B
I'll say a couple things before we wrap up. Number one is you've been an inspiration to me and so many other people. The fact that you continue to do what you do and are as passionate today as the day that you started is the thing to behold. Because I have to say, to be in the industry for this long is not an easy thing. It's not an easy path that you walk, sir.
- [29:39]
A
It's.
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B
And it makes my heart happy that you're still staying true to this vision. For everyone who's listening, you're going to want to pick up the magazine as soon as possible because do we need another magazine? No. But do we want a really beautiful, well, art directed vision or a glimpse into this, this world that you live in? 100% we want that. Okay. It's called Walk, coming out spring 2026. And we don't know much more than that. It's an art and culture magazine and it celebrates the kind of unseen, invisible art and design that shapes our life and our culture.
- [30:14]
A
Absolutely. All those wonderful moments that we all share and love. So I appreciate that, Chris. Thank you very much.
- [30:20]
B
If people want to find out more about you, where should we send them?
- [30:25]
A
You could go to ScottClumb.com and then take a look at stuff there. I'm trying to be more open and put more things up there about my talk talks and about where I came from, things like that. So I also. I'm not great at it, but my handle on Instagram is just ScottClum underscore design. So I think the discussion on that platform speaks pretty true to what go to the website.
- [30:48]
B
I've been checking it out. It's fairly modern and new. Surprise. Because a lot of designers who've been in this game for a bit, there's their sites all broken. I can't see anything. So I'm glad that you kept some things up. It's got Klum and if you want to follow him on Instagram, give him a follow. If you're listening to this and you enjoy this conversation, he's at Scott Kalam Underscore Design. It's been a real pleasure, Scott.
- [31:09]
C
Oh, Chris, Are you kidding me?
- [31:11]
A
All mine. And I can't thank you enough. I have a huge amount of respect for you and thank you for your contribution because you're an inspiration for the as well and I know a lot of other people out there. So amazing, great conversation.