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The Glossy Podcast
Designer Norma Kamali on the power of AI to keep a designer's legacy alive
00:39:57
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- [00:02]
Podcast Host
Hello Glossy Podcast listeners. As you kick off 2025 and work toward your aggressive revenue goals, one digital marketing platform partner is all you need and that's listrack. Listrack is your beauty and fashion revenue insider. List Track understands the beauty and fashion space and is the proven go to Partner for revenue creation Powering Personalized consumer connections for leading retailers and brands List. Like Peter Thomas Roth, Anastasia, Beverly Hills, John Varvatos and Oscar de la Renta, listrack's powerful AI integration with Shopify allows you to access and unify your customer data to deliver personalized cross channel messages that resonate, engage and inspire your customers. Partnering with ListTrack gives you access to beauty and fashion experts who act as an extension of marketing teams, sharing proprietary industry benchmarks, data and real time behaviors and trends. Learn more@listtrack.com that's L I S T R A K.com.
- [01:10]
Industry Expert
I think it's going to be huge in 25 and in 26 because the beauty in the fashion industry love to put high powerful creative that they've invested in in front of consumers through all channels. RCS allows them now to leverage all the investment they've made on this content and use it in a mobile channel.
- [01:31]
Christina Ko
That's Jamie Elden, Chief Revenue Officer at List Track, our sponsor on this episode of the Glossy Podcast. Later in the show, Custom talks with Jamie about how beauty brands are using personalization, working to stand out and new creative formats on the horizon.
- [01:57]
Zafirs Linska
Welcome. This is the Glossy Podcast. My name is Zafirs Linska. I'm the international fashion reporter for Glossy. This week we're joined by Norma Kamali, who's been designing for her namesake brand for over 50 years and she's continuing to redefine the relationship with technology and fashion. Fresh off her return to New York Fashion Week after more than a decade, she's debuted her fall 2025 collection inspired by Bob Dylan as well as masculine energy and the themes of the forest. I know that I've been particularly interested in her because of her relationship with technology, which started a very long time, as well as her continued use of AI including ChatGPT. So I'm very excited to have you on here. Norma. How are you?
- [02:42]
Norma Kamali
I'm doing great. It's freezing cold here in New York, but we're managing to get through. Wakes you up? I'm up.
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Zafirs Linska
I can imagine. Thank you so much for making time for this early, early recording.
- [02:58]
Norma Kamali
My pleasure.
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Zafirs Linska
And I know that obviously we've just wrapped up with New York Fashion Week. It's currently Tuesday, and obviously Fashion Week's just wrapped up. Tell me a little bit more about your collection, what the inspiration was as well as the show format. I know that it's been some time since you've been back to presenting, and I know that this was a presentation. So what made you choose that format this time?
- [03:22]
Norma Kamali
Well, I actually moved from a building that I've had in Manhattan for a very long time. And having your own building is really great, but it still doesn't give you open space. So I have a 17,000 square foot space that we use for lots of different things. I have a 38 foot LED wall and this enormous space and 100 mannequins. And so we have done recently lots of different types of installations. And so I thought of doing one for Fashion Week and maybe doing more of them because it's so much fun doing different configurations in the space and then using film and video to put the actual garments on mannequins on the LED wall, besides having the mannequins and having people come in to the space and interact with it, where instead of the models walking around, because the space is so big, people walk through the kind of installation and take a look at everything they feel and touch every fabric. To the dismay of my staff that have to fix it all the time. And I keep saying, but that's why they're here. They want to see what it feels like. They want to look at the workmanship, and it gives people time to then look at the film. And then after that, we provide a takeaway of the video as well as a voiceover of me describing the collection and what the inspiration was. And your question was, what was the inspiration? And I am not the designer who will say, I went to Bali and this is what happened. And I've never done that. But as a woman living in the world, I've always found my personal reference to what's happening, whether it's the economy or some pandemic or some event that's especially affecting women, I find that very inspirational and very helpful for me to think about what women want to wear and how they want to feel enclosed. And so in this collection, I had three points of inspiration. One was masculine energy. And I'm sure you're feeling this too, but in the States especially, masculine energy is very powerful. Our government is masculine energy. And a lot of people wanted to have that masculine energy to get this, get things kind of, you know, going in a masculine way. And even the women in the government have masculine energy. But I find more and More women, especially in their 20s and 30s, with so much masculine energy and so much self assurance about, well, listen, this is who I am, this is what I'm doing. And if you fit what I need, then we're good. But I can do this. I think I got this. And so I find it great. I find it very important that we can still be incredibly feminine, but have piles of masculine energy and really achieve things without any question that we are capable. We are capable. We're not victims. We're not weak and sort of needing the male energy to help us. We got plenty. We got it covered. We have it. And so a good part of the collection showed this masculine energy in the styling. But it also showed how when you combine very masculine and very feminine in the same outfit, it's hot and it looks great. And that's who we are now as women. And then the second part of the collection, ironically, I'd worked on a fabric, a print, years ago in the 70s, when I first did my sleeping bag coat. And I had this incredible tree pattern, a very realistic pattern of a forest with enormous trees and beautiful leaves and fall colors. And so I pulled that pattern out again, and I was doing my collection with it, and I added a leaf print pattern to it and some buffalo check plaid that you would wear in the forest. So I was really into thinking about how spiritual the forest is and how small and insignificant we are in the power of the silence and the energy of nature. And then, ironically, these horrific fires in California. So I'm watching TV and looking at the print and all of the styles, thinking, whoa, this is crazy. And it was heartbreaking to watch. And it only made me feel even stronger about the idea of the power and energy of nature. And mind you, I'm a city girl. I'm all about the city. I love camping and I love the outdoors. But I was feeling that nature would be an important part of the story. So, ironically, bringing us back to appreciating and keeping our forests wet and groomed and all of that. And then third was the Bob Dylan film with Timothee. Chalamet is a really good film, and I watched it. And then I followed up and watched the Scorsese film on Bob Dylan. Now, he and I are not far in age, but we are different generations. And I never really was a Dylan fan. I didn't really follow his music. And then my friend Twyla Tharp was doing a dance for him, and she said, norma, you better appreciate. You've gotta see this guy's amazing. He's a genius. And I learned very quickly that he was. And I started to go to some of his concerts. But seeing him in the Rolling Thunder film especially, and seeing how his music, his words, the genius of them, but also the way he decided to project more. And he even talks about how you can appeal to people by something, the way you wear or what you do. So sometimes he wore makeup and he always wore hats. And I used to do lots of hats for many years. And when somebody wears a hat and they add that to what they're wearing, whether it's a man or a woman, you often think, I wonder why they decided to wear a hat. What are they thinking? Who are they? What's their story like? There's a story here. And so hats, thanks to Dylan, are a big part. Especially Fedora's, are a big part of the collection. And they also pair up with the masculine energy a bit, which is even cooler. And then I had some on our LED wall with the video, I had some of my favorite Dylan songs playing in the background. And it just sort of came together in a very nice way. So that's basically what inspired me for fall.
- [11:42]
Zafirs Linska
Brilliant. Kind of sounds like a little designer universe. You know, you've got the soundscape, you've got like the forestscape as well as the energy of the collection as well. And, you know, you' had so many different inspirations over the years in terms of the collection design. But I know that you're also interested in technology. Tell me a little bit about kind of how that started and what your interest is in AI this year. Your collection seems a little bit further away from that compared to past ones, maybe.
- [12:13]
Norma Kamali
So this is a little bit of a story, but when I graduated from fit, and I was pretty good in my class and I had great recommendations, but the first job interview I had was a really horrible experience. I went to this office and this guy had his feet up on his desk and he was eating a tuna sandwich. And here is my first job interview. I spent so much time thinking about how I was going to present myself, my portfolio. I was spotless. And he just told me to put my portfolio down and come to over to him and turn around for him. And I remember running out of his office in tears with my portfolio. And of course, we were always. We wore stockings and pumps. And my stockings all tore because I tore it with my portfolio. And I'm clicking away on my pumps. And I will never forget how horrible I felt and how disappointed. But it was, you know, when these horrible things happen in your life. The universe is saying, no, not for you. You gotta go somewhere else. So I decided that I wanted to travel and find out more about who I was and what I wanted to do. And somehow I got a job at the airlines. And at the time, an airline job was like, you know, you're at Google or, you know, Apple or one of these. So I didn't know how to type. I had no office skills. I actually get this job, and I find myself working at a Univac computer, which I have no idea what this is. And I'm finding it very exciting because in the position I had, I was able to see and read about everything that was happening on the plane. I was getting so much information. I just was overwhelmed with how exciting this was. But I didn't really have anybody to talk to about it because nobody I knew even knew what a computer was. And so I spent four years at this position, and I worked very hard, so I was able to escalate my importance in the company. But I fortunately was able to travel to London round trip every week for $29. And so London, as you might recall, in the middle 60s, was really going through a transformation and a revolution. And I was there. I was there every weekend, and I could have easily moved to London. That's how I fit, I feel. You know, I think the Brits are very conservative in many ways, but definitely a little eccentric and quirky. And that's me. I am totally that person. So I was at home and I realized, now I know what I'm supposed to do with my life. And I started to bring back clothes from Biba and Bus Stop and other great designers that were doing things. And then I. And I opened a store, and then I started to make clothes that I wanted to see. And I was 24 when that happened, and I have been doing it ever since. And I'm so grateful to that horrible guy who just did me the biggest favor of a lifetime. So my introduction to technology really started back then in 95 to, like, 95 to 98. The interest in having a website, which was, again, I did it because I was so excited that I could take this experience that I had early on and integrate it into my company and have a website where I could be direct to the consumer instead of interpreted through buyers and everyone else. And of course, there were about six people on the Internet. On the Internet at the time. So it took a little bit more time than I expected. But because of that, I love everything that has to do with how you Communicate and the information. And so through the years I've been involved in my work with VR and AR and eBay was the first to have a platform and I was on ebay. I've done things with Apple and so it's fun and it really is so extraordinary for expanding the possibilities of a company more recently. And what I think you're probably referring to is a very serious move forward into this world. I believe AI is here. We have a lot of fears and a lot of concerns, but the train left the station and if you don't get on it, you're going to be very isolated and lonely and have a hard time. So even people who are skeptics need to know what's going on. And my example is just maybe an idea of how even the biggest skeptics might want to think about how they can use AI in their world. So I have an archive that's 57 years filled with designs. I am the only designer that's ever designed for this company. And we have been putting in, downloading collection after collection, going back into the archives, continuing to find more and more. And I was in Abu Dhabi probably now six years, six or seven years ago, for the first time that I had a conversation with a scientist there. And Abu Dhabi is very forward thinking with AI and technology. And they wanted to meet with me and I was surprised and had no idea why. And they said they wanted to download my brain. And I thought, I guess I should be complimented, but no way are you downloading my brain.
- [19:12]
Zafirs Linska
Yeah.
- [19:13]
Norma Kamali
And so the idea was that they knew about this collection I did for Walmart for three years, and they liked the concept and the thought process behind it, and they thought that an AI site could be developed with using my brain thoughts for how to develop it. So when I came home, I thought, wow, why don't I just do that for myself? Why don't I give my own company a future? Where the possibility of people in my company using an archive with prompts to develop more Norma Kamali from Norma Kamali only, not from anyone else. And so again, as the universe would have it, people who were developing this kind of thing when I first started doing it, which is now over a year ago, maybe a year and a half were rare, and there might have been two people in New York working on something like this. And I happened to meet one of them in a situation where I was speaking and he was the other speaker. And I immediately said, you need to help me put a program together so I can have this dream come true. To have this source that can bring longevity to the company way beyond me. And I had already taken a course at MIT so that I could learn how to fully understand AI, how it worked, and how to write a really good prompt, to understand the value of a prompt and what you could achieve with a good prompt. And, of course, it was humiliating because everybody that was taking the course clearly had developed apps and were engineers, and they were definitely on a whole other side scale of knowledge than I was. And it took me longer, and I decided not to be embarrassed by it, because all of the papers you produce and all of the answers to all of the tests are. Everybody can see them. Other people comment on your work too. So it was like, okay, you know what, Norma? Hopefully they've never heard of you and you can get away with this. But it was humbling to say the least. But it was such an important part of my ability to come up with ideas. Understanding how AI works, knowing what it is, is helpful in deciding how you can use it to create new ideas. And so, for me, we then went ahead and I have in my office a computer that is designated just for the archive and for developing new ideas using Norma Kamali ideas. So it's quite the experience to sit at a computer, give IT prompts for you to then design new Norma Kamali using the historic archive. And it's actually extraordinary because when I do it, I look at the designs and I promise you, I know I look at them and I think, I. I would have done that. I would have done that. That is not. It's not strange to me. It's so personally me. And so in my case, the IP is protected. It is my ip. It is Norma Kamali. So it can be used now to do the collection if I wanted to, because it's a tool. It's like a paintbrush or a cutting machine or, you know, it's a tool for me for this. But on the other side of it, and we've done some pieces and I've put them in the collection, and nobody for a minute even thought they weren't mine. I had to tell them. And now that we're selling some of them, when we do E Blast, we say this was a creation by Norma Kamali and AI Just to see people's reactions, but nobody is shocked that it or thinks that it isn't Norm. The other thing that I do with AI is more artistic. It's sort of art, technology and fashion together. And I have to say, I have spent Sundays in the office working on this and it's a whole other way of manipulating the programs. And from it I literally scream with joy when I see the results of what's happening. It's like there's another entity working with me on this and it's so exciting and so creative, which anybody who's listening to this, who hates AI is thinking she is crazy and we can't listen to her anymore. But I promise you, you can use AI as a creative tool if you're a creative person. So I've had great experiences with it and we're working on our next project. And so what I'm doing with these projects is the last one, there are iconic groups in the Norma Kamali archive and the last one I used was studs. So I've done a series of styles that have studs all over through the years. And so I pulled up the studs and did everything around that. In this next collection we're doing sleeping bag coats. So that'll be. Yeah, that'll be a lot of fun. And the last one, I didn't do the production of the garments because the designs were so extravagant and extraordinary and would be so heavy and impossible to wear. It was more looking at as an art form. But in this one, I think we should definitely go ahead and make them anyway and so we're looking forward to doing that. It's going to be a lot of fun.
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Zafirs Linska
Can't wait. Is that something that we can expect this year or is that coming next year?
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Norma Kamali
I certainly hope so. I have a lot on my plate, so I'm making sure I don't let anything squeeze out my AI project.
- [26:37]
Podcast Host
We're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsor. Hey Glossy podcast listeners. Listrack consistently delivers results for their beauty and fashion clients, providing critical data, insights, opportunities and innovation to help them succeed. Over the holiday season, Listrack launched the first Rich Communications Services marketing campaign in the United States for its partner and client, the American heritage handbag and fine leather goods brand Dooney and Bourke. The campaign proved the power of this revolutionizing mobile messaging format, more than doubling the revenue per cent compared to SMS campaigns. Rich Communication Services RCS for short, has already made a splash globally and now it's available in the US. Listrack's industry experts expect RCS to be the beauty and fashion marketers power tool in 2025, driving ROA by delivering rich, interactive experiences that bring brands to life. Think enhanced media and photography, product carousels, multiple choice questions, polls. All interactions that go beyond the traditional copy with An SMS message. Now is the time to start creating your RCS strategy and listrack is here to help and guide you in reaching your customers via interactive messaging. That's listtrack.com l I s t r k.com.
- [28:08]
Norma Kamali
Foreign.
- [28:13]
Christina Ko
I'm Christina Ko, senior editor at Custom Digiday Media's and Glossy's in House agency. In this podcast Interstitial story sponsored by Listrac, we speak with Jamie Eldon, Listrack's chief Revenue officer, about how beauty brands are standing out, leveraging personalization and what creative formats are on the horizon.
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Industry Expert
I think we've all seen these brands that emerge on Instagram reels and they're on TikTok. They just appear and then sudden they're everywhere and everybody's either wearing it, using it or talking about it. You know, like the direct to consumer brands that may have started in somebody's bedroom, basement, kitchen and within a year everybody's bought it. And that is a lot of these smaller brands are able to get that kind of success quickly by leveraging social media channels. Influencers, specifically micro influencers, you know, that they can lean into to use the product or about the product. They really know how to connect with a consumer and specifically a younger consumer today. And that's where a lot of the larger, more, you know, global brands and national brands, I think struggle is finding that unique voice to connect there.
- [29:29]
Christina Ko
While some beauty brands are finding success channeling their passion into social media posts, another way to stand out is through effective personalization.
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Industry Expert
What we're doing is we're becoming a shopping partner with that customer. We're making recommendations based upon what their likes are and their behaviors. And that's something that we've been able to do at scale, cross channel across whatever device somebody's preferred method is. We then may pull in two to three blog articles or written content that Peter Thomas Roth done about, you know, best practices for skin care and healthcare care. And we might put that in the email as well because we might find that valuable to support the product. So again, you know, what we're able to do is really build this personalized recommendation journey for a customer not only by putting the right product in front of them that they're interested in, but hey, here's some interesting articles and content around this area that you're looking at and we're finding that that is becoming extremely valuable. It's kind of taking everything that they're interested in and putting it in one destination and when they open it up they feel that, wow, this is exactly what I've been looking at and what I'm interested in.
- [30:42]
Christina Ko
As delivering unique personalized experiences becomes what consumers expect, beauty brands now have access to new technology to develop highly impactful mobile experiences that showcase their exceptional creatives.
- [30:55]
Industry Expert
In beauty and fashion. Brands really focus their creative prowess around print, digital, outdoor. They spend a lot of money on those creatives to make them look beautiful and to really appeal to consumers. That creative discipline around those is now being transformed into email, creative, SMS creative, MMS Creative. Listrack is the first company in the United States to send an RCS message, which is rich creative. And that is going to be a game changer for the beauty industry and the fashion industry in 2025. Moving forward, RCS messaging through mobile phones allows a brand to pull in their TikTok shop content, their reels, that influencer content all into a video environment on somebody's cell phone. So what that means is it allows to create this unique, rich creative experience with functionalities of they can shop, they can browse through catalogs, they can request something through this. It's a whole new way of a brand to communicate with a consumer through a cell phone. And it's going to be incredibly fascinating to see how that evolves over the next one to three years.
- [32:23]
Christina Ko
You've been listening to Jamie Eldon, chief revenue officer at Listrack, our sponsor, on this episode. And now back to the glossy podcast.
- [32:36]
Zafirs Linska
As a theoretical question, obviously you've had your brand for a very long time. As you've said, you've been the only kind of creative force behind it. The archive is huge. And you're not the only one. There's brands that have closed maybe after a creative designer has left or passed away. Do you think that AI has the potential, I guess, to carry on that legacy? Or do you think that that starts to mess a little bit with that creativity if it's not there in real.
- [33:05]
Norma Kamali
Well, I mean, first of all, think about this. Karl Lagerfeld was hired to do Chanel. And what was the first thing Karl Lagerfeld did? He went to her archive. So AI is right here, right now. It's got my archive. It's just who puts the prompt in who says, this is what I want to try? Or it starts to play with AI and moving the designs around. And some of the most interesting things are when you write a prompt and two or three designs sort of blend together and you see the blend and it's incredible. It's just incredible. So I think when a designer who's been with the brand from Inception is no longer there. You need to use the archive to keep the authenticity of the brand. What happens a lot now is when a brand is famous for a kind of energy, right? There's a certain energy about that brand and they hire other designers. First of all, those designers want to put some of their own stamp in it, their own talent. I mean, what's the point of having a talented person be at a famous brand if they can't express themselves? And so that's the beginning of the problem, because now the brand starts to take on lots of different personalities as the changes take place. Now, if one person came in and sort of use the Karl Lagerfeld approach, and I thought Karl did an amazing job with Chanel because he really decided he was going to respect it, it was going to be his goal to do that. But then you can see he added more to it and even brought it forward into the present. Now, with AI, that's easy to do. I mean, that you can even add content like what's going on, there's a pandemic, or that, you know, you can add more to it, too. There are other levels of how to expand it, but you protect the integrity of the brand when you have the archive to work from, you know, and every company has their own goal of what they'd like to do. But if you're going to hire a talented person that is a designer and you can't use their talent. Wait a minute. There's some, there's, there's a. There's a problem here. So for me, it depends on the, the motivation of the brand and how true to a certain genre, a certain look or a certain attitude do they want to see and do they have enough of an archive to actually do something that would be true to the brand?
- [36:22]
Zafirs Linska
Yeah, of course. I mean, those archives usually have to be pretty significant. As you mentioned and you mentioned, obviously, the kind of new launch with the sleeping bag, coats, and obviously the AI, what else can we expect from the brand? What kind of categories are you looking to maybe expand into or develop?
- [36:39]
Norma Kamali
Could be anything. It could be where, you know, a lot of companies are alive and well because they do accessories. And I would say for the last 10 years, I haven't done accessories. We don't have. We. We're not doing accessories. We do clothing. And so I was thinking, well, maybe this is a time to kind of see how we do accessories with AI. So I'm playing with how I want to do that. And so that's going to be interesting and probably an Area that could be fun to see the results in.
- [37:25]
Zafirs Linska
Brilliant. And I have to ask, when you were saying six people back then who had a website, were there any other fashion brands there? Were you literally the only one.
- [37:36]
Norma Kamali
Now, the fashion industry, it's another one of these ironic situations where the fashion industry is all about change. Every season, right? Every season come up with something new and yeah, yeah, yeah, what's new? What were you thinking? And we're all about that. And obviously we all have personalities that like to generate more and new. But it's crazy because technology seems to take longer. I remember people were not even sending emails or using technology for communication for a long time. And so it took a while before people started to get involved with the website. And even prior to Covid, a lot of people were not on platforms that were e commerce platforms. A lot of people were strictly in specialty stores or department stores or their own stores. And I probably since 2011, 9 to 11, really had a fascination with e commerce and how, again, how you can service, communicate directly with the consumer. And not just my own website, but being on other platforms. And like I said, ebay was probably the first. But then, because during that period of time, we reached out and really pushed to be on every platform we could be on to see what that experience was about. So when Covid came, we were in it to win it because we had such great relationships with e commerce sites and we were part of their world and we had experience working with them. And so Covid was difficult for everyone because you had to rethink how you work and what those changes obviously are still very much a part of a lot of companies. And for us, that's true. But because we had those relationships, it really worked in our favor and it helped really bring us globally in a much bigger way than we had been.
- [40:16]
Zafirs Linska
Yeah, definitely. I mean, that kind of global presence, something that a lot of brands are lacking. I know that there's, you know, sometimes there's even disconnect getting customer details from one part of the world to another if they're shopping worldwide. Like, it's such a basic thing and yet it feels like fashion is a dinosaur when it comes to technology.
- [40:36]
Norma Kamali
Yeah. And you know, I think technology is feared and like I said, there's some good reason, but being afraid of it and not taking a chance, I mean, even a simple thing of using ChatGPT or something like that, I use it every day. I use it for everything. I just can get lost in conversation with ChatGPT and finding out something or I'll see something on Instagram, post about some chemical or something like that, and I'll get lost in, where does it come from? What does it do? What are the side effects? How does it. And then it'll say, is there anything else you'd like to know? Yeah. And then. And I. And like, before I know it, an hour and a half has gone by. And so the idea of using these tools is going to be the way everybody does, just the way we use our computers, just the way we live. It's so much a part of this technology. Well, it's going to happen very quickly, and probably we're going to see huge changes in this year. I mean, that's how fast it's happening. And it's really. It's so exciting. But when I speak with friends and they're not even using ChatGPT, I try to explain why they will have fun and they will experience a different thing than they're thinking. There's still resistance. And I really believe, because this is moving so quickly, that that's how quickly you can feel out of sync with what's going on. And. And I think that's a terrible thing, that to be left out. It's like living in a country where you don't speak the language. I liken it to going to maybe a small town in Northern China where you don't know the language, you don't know anything about the lifestyle, the food. That I think is going to be how people feel when they're disconnected to what life is going to be like.
- [43:01]
Zafirs Linska
Yeah, definitely. And it's all moving at such a fast pace. It's not worth being left behind.
- [43:07]
Norma Kamali
No, no. It's tragic, actually.
- [43:12]
Zafirs Linska
Well, I know that we've gone through a lot, so thank you so much, Norma, for coming on. I think we ran over a little bit of time, but it was great to have you on. And thank you so much for digging into your chatgpt habits and all of the rest as well.
- [43:29]
Norma Kamali
Thank you so much for inviting me. I appreciate it.
- [43:32]
Zafirs Linska
Of course. Thank you so much. That's it for this week's Glossy podcast. Thanks for tuning in. And a big thank you to Norma Kamali for sharing her insights on innovation, fashion and the future of New York Fashion Week. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe. Leave us a review and check out Glossy Co for more fashion and beauty industry coverage. We'll be back next Wednesday with another conversation you won't want to miss. See you then.